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Biggest Villains of the RPG Industry?

Started by RPGPundit, August 12, 2010, 03:28:01 AM

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StormBringer

#240
September 01, 2010, 11:37:57 AM
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;402291They, especially Werewolf,  let me rip shit up in-game in a way no other game allowed before.  That was all the fucking cool I needed.  
I believe our go to strategy was "I twist his head off".  :)

QuoteI later took some of the tools I gained from playing WW into other games, and it really helped me focus on the character, and not the stats.  Some of the questions for fleshing out your characters motivations and background from the oWoD character gen section I still use when I am creating characters for other games.
A very good point.  While WW didn't seem to take any particular pains to avoid the ad/disad problem of the blind, quadriplegic, deaf, everything-phobic character that racked up about six and a half million character points for working in every disad across five supplements,  they were still part of a robust system of character creation.

QuotePundit will take this to mean I play all my characters as Louis Von Lestat, king of the ruffled shirts and tortured prose, but that's ok.
Wait, I thought you were the king of ruffled shirts and tortured prose.  :)
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Benoist

#241
September 01, 2010, 11:44:19 AM
Quote from: StormBringer;402310A very good point.  While WW didn't seem to take any particular pains to avoid the ad/disad problem of the blind, quadriplegic, deaf, everything-phobic character that racked up about six and a half million character points for working in every disad across five supplements,  they were still part of a robust system of character creation.
Well you could only take 7 points of Flaws max though. Not like zillions and zillions of them. Quadraplegic was like 5 or 6 points, for reference, Dark Fate (which basically gave the GM carte blanche to make your  PC's life miserable) was like 5 points, and so on. So it wasn't piling up too much.

StormBringer

#242
September 01, 2010, 12:16:25 PM
Quote from: Benoist;402312Well you could only take 7 points of Flaws max though. Not like zillions and zillions of them. Quadraplegic was like 5 or 6 points, for reference, Dark Fate (which basically gave the GM carte blanche to make your  PC's life miserable) was like 5 points, and so on. So it wasn't piling up too much.
Assuming the GM enforced the limit and the Dark Fate.

Still, if you could get a few minor flaws that added up to the max, would those really offset 7 additional points of Celerity?  Or Vicissitude?  That last one would pretty much clear up any problems with non-functional limbs.

It is a good system, it's just one that is very difficult to execute without fairly obvious loopholes.  The nature of the beast, as it were.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Benoist

#243
September 01, 2010, 12:21:03 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;402317Assuming the GM enforced the limit and the Dark Fate.
Well, I have never ever seen any GM ever allowing more than 7 points of Flaws and if we had at the time? We would have laughed our asses off at his stupidity, to be honest. It's like ASKING for the most gonzo characters you can get. LOL

Hackmastergeneral

#244
September 01, 2010, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;402310I believe our go to strategy was "I twist his head off".  :)

I still love my old ST.  When Werewolf characters got too overconfident or uber-violent, he had an encounter with "Lesson Bear", a Gurhal with a skull and crossbones on his chest, that would come along and kick 99 flavors of hell amongst the party.  The lesson:  All Gaia's Children have a place in the choir.

QuoteA very good point.  While WW didn't seem to take any particular pains to avoid the ad/disad problem of the blind, quadriplegic, deaf, everything-phobic character that racked up about six and a half million character points for working in every disad across five supplements,  they were still part of a robust system of character creation.

Oh man, a guy I used to (note the emphasis) who was a massive WoD fan HATES 4ed because he can't intentionally gimp his character, or it's really hard to.  He'd make a STR1, STA1 Toreador or Malkavian, and take every physical flaw, or make a low strength/HP fighter or a INT 6 Wizard in 3.5/3ed.  As I said...USED to.


QuoteWait, I thought you were the king of ruffled shirts and tortured prose.  :)

Only on fanfic.net.  :)
 

Hackmastergeneral

#245
September 01, 2010, 01:47:09 PM
Quote from: Benoist;402318Well, I have never ever seen any GM ever allowing more than 7 points of Flaws and if we had at the time? We would have laughed our asses off at his stupidity, to be honest. It's like ASKING for the most gonzo characters you can get. LOL

I used to relax the rules at Cons just to see the stupid I would get.  Oh man, gonzo doesn't begin to cover it.

Afterwards, I was always thankful they wrote that limit...
 

Grymbok

#246
September 01, 2010, 03:58:52 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;402209I don't see that there was a stagnation at that time in either production or innovation.

The quality of products coming out like Shadowrun, RIFTS, or the GURPS stuff of the day, to give just a few examples, is pretty much proof that the whole "WW was a new wave in quality" stuff is bullshit.

WW was a new wave in making stuff look faux-artsy, and in speaking pretentious drivel. If you interpret those two things to mean "more mature adult" then I guess you'd feel that way about WW's products, but you'd probably also be about 17 years old, at least mentally.

RPGPundit

WW products had better art and graphic design than many/most of the competition at the time. I may be misremembering but wasn't Vampire 1e pretty much all Tim Bradstreet art? Gave it a nice consistent look at a tine when most of the competition were happy to alternate high-quality full colour illustrations with tatty line drawings drawn by the editor's kids (WEG were terrible for this outside of their licensed games, and I have dim memories of bad blue line art In AD&D 2e as well).

StormBringer

#247
September 01, 2010, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: Benoist;402318Well, I have never ever seen any GM ever allowing more than 7 points of Flaws and if we had at the time? We would have laughed our asses off at his stupidity, to be honest. It's like ASKING for the most gonzo characters you can get. LOL
Obviously, but I am pretty sure neither of us has seen a DM that allowed a character to kill Thor with a push spell from a high wall, either.  ;)
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Benoist

#248
September 01, 2010, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;402358Obviously, but I am pretty sure neither of us has seen a DM that allowed a character to kill Thor with a push spell from a high wall, either.  ;)
Thankfully not. ;)

StormBringer

#249
September 01, 2010, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;402330I still love my old ST.  When Werewolf characters got too overconfident or uber-violent, he had an encounter with "Lesson Bear", a Gurhal with a skull and crossbones on his chest, that would come along and kick 99 flavors of hell amongst the party.  The lesson:  All Gaia's Children have a place in the choir.
That is awesome.

QuoteOh man, a guy I used to (note the emphasis) who was a massive WoD fan HATES 4ed because he can't intentionally gimp his character, or it's really hard to.  He'd make a STR1, STA1 Toreador or Malkavian, and take every physical flaw, or make a low strength/HP fighter or a INT 6 Wizard in 3.5/3ed.  As I said...USED to.
Lame.  It's one thing to make the best of a bad situation, but Munchausen-by-proxy with your D&D character?  LAME.

QuoteOnly on fanfic.net.  :)
I thought I recognized you!   Errr...  I mean, I would have, if I were to visit places like that.  :)
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

RPGPundit

#250
September 02, 2010, 11:47:48 AM
Quote from: Grymbok;402345WW products had better art and graphic design than many/most of the competition at the time. I may be misremembering but wasn't Vampire 1e pretty much all Tim Bradstreet art? Gave it a nice consistent look at a tine when most of the competition were happy to alternate high-quality full colour illustrations with tatty line drawings drawn by the editor's kids (WEG were terrible for this outside of their licensed games, and I have dim memories of bad blue line art In AD&D 2e as well).

The Art in Palladium books had been consistently high quality for at least something like 5 years before Vampire ever came along.

Or are you discounting that because its not "mature" because no one is wearing black in it and there are no men with eyeliner?

RPGPundit
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jgants

#251
September 02, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;402445The Art in Palladium books had been consistently high quality for at least something like 5 years before Vampire ever came along.

Or are you discounting that because its not "mature" because no one is wearing black in it and there are no men with eyeliner?

OK, how about general layout?  Surely you don't believe Palladium books are a shining example of great layout?

They have gotten a bit better over the years, but the older books were a mess.
Now Prepping: One-shot adventures for Coriolis, RuneQuest (classic), Numenera, 7th Sea 2nd edition, and Adventures in Middle-Earth.

Recently Ended: Palladium Fantasy - Warlords of the Wastelands: A fantasy campaign beginning in the Baalgor Wastelands, where characters emerge from the oppressive kingdom of the giants. Read about it here.

Hackmastergeneral

#252
September 02, 2010, 12:57:49 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;402445The Art in Palladium books had been consistently high quality for at least something like 5 years before Vampire ever came along.

Or are you discounting that because its not "mature" because no one is wearing black in it and there are no men with eyeliner?

RPGPundit

...what?

Palladium art was alright.  Art in (some) White Wolf books was outstanding, detailed.  The bets art in Palladium books was stuff yanked from Eastman/Laird comics in TMNT.  It got better, and some of the RIFTS art is good.  But yikes, saying Palladium art is better than WW?  That PROVES how biased you are.  :)

Jgants is 100% right.  For every "page XX" problem WW has, layout in 99% of Palladium books is downright abominable.
 

Novastar

#253
September 02, 2010, 04:19:20 PM
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;402467...what?

Palladium art was alright.  Art in (some) White Wolf books was outstanding, detailed.  The bets art in Palladium books was stuff yanked from Eastman/Laird comics in TMNT.  It got better, and some of the RIFTS art is good.  But yikes, saying Palladium art is better than WW?  That PROVES how biased you are.  :)
Then I'm biased the same way.

Don't get me wrong, lots of art in WW's products was good, but a lot of it was "a whole lot of black" too. I know someone more versed in art styles will probably be able to give it a name, but WW's art seemed to start with black paper, and white ink put to it...

Which makes it evocative and different, but not necessarily GOOD.
Quote from: dragoner;776244Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn\'t what I play rpg\'s for.

Simlasa

#254
September 02, 2010, 04:46:37 PM Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 04:51:03 PM by Simlasa
I think Palladium's art was 'better' for Palladium's games... their rules were for BIG bright comic book-type action.
Put WW style chiaroscuro stuff in there and it doesn't feel like it matches the intent.
WOD books would feel a whole lot different with Palladium artists doing the illos.
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