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Blatantly ripping off a thread from another forum; who are the biggest Villains of the industry, the ones who have done the most harm to it in the past, and/or are doing the most damage to it now?


RPGPundit

I think that Shipman fellow, with the whole Outlaw Press thing, would be an obvious choice.

Lesser evils would include the suits at WotC.

There's the whole personal/company funds snafu at Catalyst, but I still don't know who did what there.

Also, Steve Sheiring (of the Palladium embezzlement/theft crisis).

Hmm. At times I think that some of the people who just create the sickest, darkest, most repugnant game settings imaginable might fall into this category, but then they don't make anyone play their dark, depressing, fatalistic stuff. I'm not crazy about them and I don't like the uberdark stuff, but calling them villains might be going to far.

 I really think it's kinda pathetic to put what amounts to softcore porn on the cover of game products as it makes gamers look like drooling adolescent geeks buying stuff because there's a near naked woman on the cover. Avalanche press does this shit a lot and it makes some gamers look bad. I don't even touch their stuff.

 Those are my peeves about the rpg biz, if that makes them villains then so be it.

Quote from: Zachary The First;398492I think that Shipman fellow, with the whole Outlaw Press thing, would be an obvious choice.

Lesser evils would include the suits at WotC.

There's the whole personal/company funds snafu at Catalyst, but I still don't know who did what there.

Also, Steve Sheiring (of the Palladium embezzlement/theft crisis).

How about the bastich who ripped off catalyst games, putting battletech and shadowrun in jeopardy, along with eclipse phase? I'd say he deserves this "honor".

Though there are probably better examples i'd say Decipher Games screwing themselves over at the time they started getting into rpg's and Last Unicorn Games (though this might well be the fault of those hacks Anderson and Herbert jr) for the Dune rpg mess. Games Workshop for abandoning anything not Warhammer for Warhammer in the late 80's.

1) Whoever came up with 4e's design principles
2) Loren Coleman
3) The unspeakable Robert S.

Lorraine Williams

The Blumes, like I said over there.

Also, Byron Hall.

Today? The misery peddlers.

Well, there is Kevin Siembieda who fucks his customers and writers over again and again and who milks the death of his friend for all it is worth. That is simply despiccable.

There are all the grognards, who think anything not D&D is not worth playing and who are simply fucking bad ambassadors for our hobby because they give the impression that only overly oppinonated middle aged men engage in our hobby.

I am actually tempted to add RPG pundit to the list whose years of rpg one true wayism trench warfare have probably hurt the hobby quite a bit. Then I would of course have to add Ron Edwards to the list, too, who actually started the shit by calling people who liked certain games braindead.

Ryan Delancy, but I'm conflicted, he helped usher in the d20 revolution and pushed to give us the OGL. But then again, he helped usher in the d20 revolution and pushed to give us the OGL.

Then there was his inglorius exit from the industry followed up by his new role with CCP and sounding the death knell of WW as a print publisher (oh wait, imprint)...followed up by those on that side of the company doing months of damage control. With mixed results.

But if I had any serious ire, I'd direct it towards Mark C. MacKinnon of Guardians of Order and the horrible self destruction of a company/brand/ip that happened there.

I've love to point a finger at 4chan /tg/ crowd. But..eh, it's 4chan. It's like calling Snidely Whiplash a bad guy. A duh. Chan will be chan.

Channers are rude because the site lets them be, but I wouldn't call them evil or villains.  They're not actively damaging the hobby, and most of their interests (aside from the random porn threads) align with your average joe gamer (D&D, Warhammer, Battletech, occassionally WoD, etc.).

Quote from: Peregrin;398569Channers are rude because the site lets them be, but I wouldn't call them evil or villains.  They're not actively damaging the hobby, and most of their interests (aside from the random porn threads) align with your average joe gamer (D&D, Warhammer, Battletech, occassionally WoD, etc.).

This is true, but they do support a lot of the fileshare community that destorys the smaller publishers. (Or at leasts cuts into their bottom line.) I'm less worried about what the channers do the larger developers. But the small 1-2 people companies that are in the indy side of the business it's not a nice thing.

Than again, most channers wouldn't know an indy game if it came up and bit them on the ass...so. Ya. Channers folks.

Probably gamers and fans for stepping on their own fun...

Seanchai

Quote from: Saphim;398527I am actually tempted to add RPG pundit to the list whose years of rpg one true wayism trench warfare have probably hurt the hobby quite a bit. Then I would of course have to add Ron Edwards to the list, too, who actually started the shit by calling people who liked certain games braindead.

I don't think that Ron Edwards or pundit have that kind of exposure or influence.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;398571This is true, but they do support a lot of the fileshare community that destorys the smaller publishers. (Or at leasts cuts into their bottom line.) I'm less worried about what the channers do the larger developers. But the small 1-2 people companies that are in the indy side of the business it's not a nice thing.

Than again, most channers wouldn't know an indy game if it came up and bit them on the ass...so. Ya. Channers folks.

Just empirically, most chan people are pirating copies of PF & 4e, not indy-press stuff.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398613I don't think that Ron Edwards or pundit have that kind of exposure or influence.

Right, and if they go on the list, then so should RPG.net, in my estimation. Their "darlings" tend to go right off my radar of potential interests.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398613I don't think that Ron Edwards or pundit have that kind of exposure or influence.

Ron actually didn't call people braindead. That's hardly even an insult, really. Plenty of you here are probably already braindead, I'll just say that right now. I mean, it's an opinion.

No, what Ron said was that people had become brain damaged by years of exposure to the wrong games so that they were creatively stunted and could not appreciate the brilliance of forgie-ism.

The forgie paradigm (at the time) was based on this sort of "convert the primitive savages" kind of belief that people simply don't know know how bad they have it until they are saved, and the ones who refuse to be saved - that refuse to convert- (and convert means "never to go back to their old and wicked ways) are explained away as being beyond help. They tried to sanitize the term after the big controversy, but the meaning and context are important.

Well, as I don't work in the Industry, it's hard for anyone to be a Villain, who hasn't somehow denied me some fun/books (else, yeah, Lorraine Williams would be on the list; I've never heard anyone having something nice to say about her). So...publishers that have denied me the awesomesauce of their books:

1) Mark C. MacKinnon of Guardians of Order (I want more SAS, dammit!)
2) Eric Gibson of d6 Games (I want Septimus in dead tree, dammit!)
3) Kevin Siembeida of Palladium (I want Mechanoids: Space & LOD#3, dammit!)

"They" is kind of vague, AM.  Only a handful of people initially defended Ron's position, and Clinton's initial response was a big "WTF Ron?"

RPG.net

The culture there is consumeristic, derivative, shallow and focused on high concept games that are unplayable. The "What System for [Ephemeral Pop Trend]?" threads are paradigmatic of this problem.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;398626RPG.net

The culture there is consumeristic, derivative, shallow and focused on high concept games that are unplayable. The "What System for [Ephemeral Pop Trend]?" threads are paradigmatic of this problem.

I almost agree with you, but then again I find it a decent resource for support of some of the indy market of very playable. I don't think ORE would have gotten off the ground for not the helpful community there and a few other sites. Savage Worlds and FATE also get loads of support there.

That said, it is a big shiny red target for astroturfing, one true-isms, and high concept snobbery. But I think The Forge acended in that department long before RPG.net ever took up the crown.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;398626RPG.net

The culture there is consumeristic, derivative, shallow and focused on high concept games that are unplayable. The "What System for [Ephemeral Pop Trend]?" threads are paradigmatic of this problem.

In general, true. There are some good posters that remain, but the signal-noise ratio isn't great.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;398629I almost agree with you, but then again I find it a decent resource for support of some of the indy market of very playable. I don't think ORE would have gotten off the ground for not the helpful community there and a few other sites. Savage Worlds and FATE also get loads of support there.

That said, it is a big shiny red target for astroturfing, one true-isms, and high concept snobbery. But I think The Forge acended in that department long before RPG.net ever took up the crown.

My impression is that, outside of a few people, there's not actually a lot of gaming experience there. The most valuable stuff I get from RPG.net is almost _never_ stuff like "I did this in this game and it worked", but rather "Let's all share cool ideas". Since I don't like the ideas most of those people have (too much pop culture, pastiche and JRPG influence), it makes the website very low value for me except for the PbP forum.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;398634My impression is that, outside of a few people, there's not actually a lot of gaming experience there. The most valuable stuff I get from RPG.net is almost _never_ stuff like "I did this in this game and it worked", but rather "Let's all share cool ideas". Since I don't like the ideas most of those people have (too much pop culture, pastiche and JRPG influence), it makes the website very low value for me except for the PbP forum.

That's true. Open Roleplaying is usually rather too chaotic to be useful all the time. But I LOVE going there when a new product gets previewed as some of the posters are really good at ferriting out details of the system, class/power builds, etc. I just turn the brain on and download. The hitch is...you have to filter out system/developer bias.

Quote from: Peregrin;398624"They" is kind of vague, AM.  Only a handful of people initially defended Ron's position, and Clinton's initial response was a big "WTF Ron?"

I know. Also, to his credit, Fred Hicks got pretty pissed. Even John Wick had issues with it.  The word "bigot" was even used. Most of the holdouts who loudly agreed with Ron have all but disappeared by now.

But when I say "they" tried to sanitize the term, just watch how much the term brain damage comes up later in a different context. Like (and this is a purely hypothetical example) "I never could get into superheroes, guess I have too much indie comics brain damage, heh heh.."

Which- ok, I understand why people do things like this. It was an embarrassing episode. Making it funny is a way to sort of drop it. I actually laugh sometimes when (Vampire fanatic and presumably a prime suspect of brain damage) JD Corley keeps bringing it up over and over again. But at the time, I really thought it was one of the most vicious and manipulative things I'd ever seen. Watching ron's apostles step up and say "yes, I had been brain-damaged.. than you for saving me.." was just mind boggling.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;398641I know. Also, to his credit, Fred Hicks got pretty pissed. Even John Wick had issues with it.  The word "bigot" was even used. Most of the holdouts who loudly agreed with Ron have all but disappeared by now.

But when I say "they" tried to sanitize the term, just watch how much the term brain damage comes up later in a different context. Like (and this is a purely hypothetical example) "I never could get into superheroes, guess I have too much indie comics brain damage, heh heh.."

Which- ok, I understand why people do things like this. It was an embarrassing episode. Making it funny is a way to sort of drop it. I actually laugh sometimes when (Vampire fanatic and presumably a prime suspect of brain damage) JD Corley keeps bringing it up over and over again. But at the time, I really thought it was one of the most vicious and manipulative things I'd ever seen. Watching ron's apostles step up and say "yes, I had been brain-damaged.. than you for saving me.." was just mind boggling.

Were Baker and Crane around at that time? I sort of came in at the tail end of the rumpus and never bothered delving much deeper.

Well, I think the administration at rpgnet certainly qualify.  Especially given that they closed this thread's progenitor on nothing more than a premonition that it would not end well.

Honestly it seemed to be moving along just fine without any spite or nastiness for what ? four pages before Darren popped in with his Mod complex.

Really for that matter, specifically Darren McLennan as the guy who was almost solely responsible for creating rpgnet's culture of vulgarity and personal attacks and then got made a mod as a reward after which only he was allowed to be vulgar and make personal attacks which led to the mod wars and the departure/banning of most of the interesting people and the draconian moderation policies that dominate the place to this day.

I also think that companies that create deliberately incomplete and incompatible new editions are villains.  Especially when they bring out yet another new edition while the last one is still painfully incomplete.

Quote from: One Horse Town;398646Were Baker and Crane around at that time? I sort of came in at the tail end of the rumpus and never bothered delving much deeper.

I think they were around but they weren't as big as they are now. This was a few years ago.

Speaking of Luke, did he ever engage directly in the hardcore Forge theory stuff?  I always felt he was sort of friends with the people there, but only took the bits and pieces of discussion he found useful, and ignored the rest.

I also think he made a comment once to the effect that he's rejected a lot more theory than he's accepted in a lot of his work (although whether he was speaking about his actual job or design was a bit unclear in the discussion).

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;398634My impression is that, outside of a few people, there's not actually a lot of gaming experience there. The most valuable stuff I get from RPG.net is almost _never_ stuff like "I did this in this game and it worked", but rather "Let's all share cool ideas". Since I don't like the ideas most of those people have (too much pop culture, pastiche and JRPG influence), it makes the website very low value for me except for the PbP forum.

I have the same impression.  Lots of buying, reading and collecting.  Not so much actual play.

It's a product focused forum, not a play focused one.

It still has a lot of cool posters though.

Peregrin, my impression is that Luke's designs aren't that theory influenced.  He's part of the scene, but not of it.  I could be wrong though.

Burnign Empires was full of Vince & Ron cock sucking. Hook line and sinker, he swallowed it all and gurgled. It is Ron & Vince who declared Crane a persona non grata for crimes of going mainstream and actually offering tangible product for money. There's an infamous podcast out there...the horror.

Games Workshop for me.  They killed WFRP1, killed WFRP2 and tried to kill Dark Heresy.  For some reason they are vehemently anti-rpg.

The owners of the Conan IP for ixnaying Mongoose's plans for the Conan RPG (and for green-lighting that new Conan movie that's going to suck so hard the universe may implode.)

FFG - With one of the greatest art and graphics teams they can't be bothered to include useful maps in adventures.  Experimenting is ok, deciding to make WFRP3 bizarrely abstract and narrative in some areas for no reason other then to do it is not.

Lorraine Williams, and all of TSR post-Gary.  
Ron Edwards.
Whoever was responsible for FASA breaking up.
Whoever is responsible for Catalyst.  

Kevin Siembieda for being as batshit fucking loco as George Lucas, but unlike George actually still producing brilliant ideas, even if they are implemented poorly.

James Malihoweveryouspellitski for that smug, shit-eating smirk on his face all the time (his module was good though).

ENworld, RPG.net all the sites that moderate like hell and ban people who don't run with the circle-jerk.

Quote from: CRKrueger;398661ENworld, RPG.net all the sites that moderate like hell and ban people who don't run with the circle-jerk.

Yeah. That'd be right up there for me too.

Lorraine clearly is on the top of the list too.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;398618Ron actually didn't call people braindead. That's hardly even an insult, really. Plenty of you here are probably already braindead, I'll just say that right now. I mean, it's an opinion.

No, what Ron said was that people had become brain damaged by years of exposure to the wrong games so that they were creatively stunted and could not appreciate the brilliance of forgie-ism.

The forgie paradigm (at the time) was based on this sort of "convert the primitive savages" kind of belief that people simply don't know know how bad they have it until they are saved, and the ones who refuse to be saved - that refuse to convert- (and convert means "never to go back to their old and wicked ways) are explained away as being beyond help. They tried to sanitize the term after the big controversy, but the meaning and context are important.

Is there any actual documentation of a conspiracy to "convert" the majority of gamers to forge-ism besides the soiled, crumpled napkins that Pundit feverishly jotted his manifesto down on in the wee hours of the morning?

Because honestly, the above scenario sounds like conservative talk radio to me.

Quote from: Seanchai;398600Probably gamers and fans for stepping on their own fun...

Indeed. The hobby doesn't need villains. Fans cause enough trouble on their own.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398676Is there any actual documentation of a conspiracy to "convert" the majority of gamers to forge-ism besides the soiled, crumpled napkins that Pundit feverishly jotted his manifesto down on in the wee hours of the morning?

It's mostly like, RPGnet Forge guy says something Forge-ish in a very smug way (basically a holier-than-thou type statement), and the knights of trad games come and pounce on him, and then other Forge (or Forge-loving) guys come out and pounce back, and it turns into a completely incomprehensible and unproductive discussion with people trying to sound smarter than the opposition and get the last word in.

The only time I've ever seen them try to force anyone into seeing their way is if you bothered to post on the Forge.  Otherwise it was mostly people assuring each-other they were right, patting each-other on the back, and discussing games.  Well, I mean there were arguments, but you're talking about a very small group of people.  Which is a little too closed-circle for my taste when it comes to testing out ideas, but, mreh, I just play games, I don't design them.

Quote from: SettBurnign Empires was full of Vince & Ron cock sucking. Hook line and sinker, he swallowed it all and gurgled. It is Ron & Vince who declared Crane a persona non grata for crimes of going mainstream and actually offering tangible product for money. There's an infamous podcast out there...the horror.

Any chance you remember the name of the podcast?  I'm kinda interested.

Old TSR for threatening to sue everyone in the game biz over copyright and constantly waving their dreaded legal department in everyone's face but never having the guts to sue people like jack chick or others who slandered D&D and claimed it was killing people.

Quote from: Cylonophile;398693Old TSR for threatening to sue everyone in the game biz over copyright and constantly waving their dreaded legal department in everyone's face but never having the guts to sue people like jack chick or others who slandered D&D and claimed it was killing people.

TSR = They Sue Regularly

Quote from: ggroy;398695TSR = They Sue Regularly

Or trademark symbol required.

Teah, they'd bully everyone in the gam biz, but let geraldo rivera claim that 3 kids murdered one kinds parents to inherit the money and it was all due to D&D, which is was more about drugs, and they don't sue him for slander. Or jack chick for violating their trademark with "dark dungeons"

Quote from: Settembrini;398659Burnign Empires was full of Vince & Ron cock sucking. Hook line and sinker, he swallowed it all and gurgled. It is Ron & Vince who declared Crane a persona non grata for crimes of going mainstream and actually offering tangible product for money. There's an infamous podcast out there...the horror.

So you didn't read nor played Burning Empires, Gotcha.

They can't sue Jack Chick for Freedom of Speech reasons, you dipstick. That, and they didn't really see it as a problem (which it isn't and wasn't - hell, it was free advertising).

Quote from: Werekoala;398706They can't sue Jack Chick for Freedom of Speech reasons, you dipstick.

In no country that I know of is freedom of speech absolute. There's the classic shouting-fire-in-a-crowded-theatre example, and of course slander. There are many limitations to expressions, and I wouldn't be surprised if Chick's crap fell within one of them.

People often forget about libel.

If there were a case, and if they could make it in court and make it stick, they would have.

Publishers using another's trademark for a publicity stunt on a shitty module. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17977)

Quote from: Benoist;398768Publishers using another's trademark for a publicity stunt on a shitty module. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17977)

If that's the worst the industry has to offer then I would say it is doing pretty well.

Quote from: 837204563;398769If that's the worst the industry has to offer then I would say it is doing pretty well.

It's just the latest lame behavior I've seen. Just because there is worse doesn't excuse such actions.

But let's go deeper, shall we? It's not about the use of a trademark, the particular example itself. It's about the type of mentality it takes to get to such stupid stunts to sell a module. Guys just wanting to make an easy buck out of an RPG product. Guys in fact who do not love what they do, since they do not estimate the fruit of their work enough to let it stand on its own merits.

No. These guys are parasites. They're losers. Through and through.

Quote from: Werekoala;398706They can't sue Jack Chick for Freedom of Speech reasons, you dipstick. That, and they didn't really see it as a problem (which it isn't and wasn't - hell, it was free advertising).

Bullshit. He uses the name and didn't acknowledge copyright, that's violation.

Quote from: Fifth Element;398756In no country that I know of is freedom of speech absolute. There's the classic shouting-fire-in-a-crowded-theatre example, and of course slander. There are many limitations to expressions, and I wouldn't be surprised if Chick's crap fell within one of them.

A little OT here but related, I think in most countries soe of chick's tracts would be illegal under hate speech laws. I know in one he linked homosexuality to child molestation and in some countries that's a crime.

Likewise most of  his tracts busting on islam would be illegal in some non islamic countries (they'd obviously be illegal in islamic countries) for defamation of religion.

Quote from: Peregrin;398690It's mostly like, RPGnet Forge guy says something Forge-ish in a very smug way (basically a holier-than-thou type statement), and the knights of trad games come and pounce on him, and then other Forge (or Forge-loving) guys come out and pounce back, and it turns into a completely incomprehensible and unproductive discussion with people trying to sound smarter than the opposition and get the last word in.

The only time I've ever seen them try to force anyone into seeing their way is if you bothered to post on the Forge.  Otherwise it was mostly people assuring each-other they were right, patting each-other on the back, and discussing games.  Well, I mean there were arguments, but you're talking about a very small group of people.  Which is a little too closed-circle for my taste when it comes to testing out ideas, but, mreh, I just play games, I don't design them.

So basically it's likely every single gaming forum, ever?

Quote from: Shazbot79;398781So basically it's likely every single gaming forum, ever?

Basically yes, few RPG forums have been free from forgies.

Quote from: Benoist;398770It's just the latest lame behavior I've seen. Just because there is worse doesn't excuse such actions.

But let's go deeper, shall we? It's not about the use of a trademark, the particular example itself. It's about the type of mentality it takes to get to such stupid stunts to sell a module. Guys just wanting to make an easy buck out of an RPG product. Guys in fact who do not love what they do, since they do not estimate the fruit of their work enough to let it stand on its own merits.

No. These guys are parasites. They're losers. Through and through.

Not to condone the stunt, but my understanding is that the module is actually pretty solid, and the use of the Jeff Easily (sp?) art is legit too.

Quote from: Peregrin;398569Channers are rude because the site lets them be, but I wouldn't call them evil or villains.  They're not actively damaging the hobby, and most of their interests (aside from the random porn threads) align with your average joe gamer (D&D, Warhammer, Battletech, occassionally WoD, etc.).

I dunno.  4chan has been pretty instrumental in the popularity of Maid.  

Then again, their willingness to be blatantly honest about what it's really about is handy for dealing with some of it's deniers, and there's just as much hostile response to it as friendly there.  

Still, it's an honest to god published hentai game, which probably never would've existed outside Japan if not for their influence.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398676Is there any actual documentation of a conspiracy to "convert" the majority of gamers to forge-ism besides the soiled, crumpled napkins that Pundit feverishly jotted his manifesto down on in the wee hours of the morning?

Because honestly, the above scenario sounds like conservative talk radio to me.

Oh they try, at least, it seems to be their intention, it's just that like all smug, self-important hipsters, their technique is lacking, and it mostly just pisses everyone off.

But give them an opening and they can and have invaded sites and damn near driven out regular conversation at the least.  The worst was back when Ron closed the theory forum on the Forge, the whole of fucking RPGnet got inundated with that hackneyed crap pretty quick like.  This site's had an invasion or two in the past as well.

It's aided by responses like yours most of all, of course.  People ignorant of the reality of past events, who start slinging FUD just to get a rise out of those of us who've actually witnessed it with our own eyes.  There's also the one's who aren't ignorant of it, but friendly to it, so of course in their eyes there never was any kind of untoward behavior because nothing the Forge could ever do would be untoward.  

Eventually, given time and distance and the internet's short memory, this attitude spreads, and those who still remember are dismisses as crazies or bitter or whatever by people who have no idea what their talking about, right up until the point when suddenly half the front page of a site is full of godawful Forge bullshit.  After a few months of constant flamewars and relentless trolling and shilling from all the usual "indie/story/Forge" people, people finally get fed up, bans are handed around, threads shifted to non-main forums, the heat dies down, and then everyone forgets all over again and the cycle begins anew.

It's been going on for as long as there's been a Forge or similar, and I'll be the first to admit I've been suckered into lowering my guard as well in the past, but after a while you start seeing why some folks like the Pundit wind up coming around to a very "zero tolerance" attitude towards their crap.  It comes across as blind hate to the ignorant, but those that've been around enough can see it for how necessary such an attitude really is.

So you say.

Gamers can be right smug cunts when it comes down to it...but the idea of some overarching conspiracy to take over really just sounds like a paranoid fantasy to me.

Of course, I've not seen any actual evidence of the "Great Forge War" beyond cryptic anecdotes from cats like you and pundit.

I would also include rpg.net as villains, but what more can i say about that site, particularly the attitude of its moderators, that hasn't alreay been said. I don't think i've ever met such a temperamental and hypocritical group of people online. I don't like to communicate the way they do, especially online. The discussion is limited, fragile and oppressive. I just do not understand why they feel the need to ban people every time - and then, when someone questions a mdo decision, to get picked apart by vultures who seem to lack the wit to see the hypocrisy of their position. It's so very sad.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398797So you say.

Gamers can be right smug cunts when it comes down to it...but the idea of some overarching conspiracy to take over really just sounds like a paranoid fantasy to me.

Of course, I've not seen any actual evidence of the "Great Forge War" beyond cryptic anecdotes from cats like you and pundit.

I wouldn't use the term "conspiracy", though I'm sure it sounds great to your ears because it furthers your goal of being pointlessly confrontational just to get a rise out of an easy target.

I don't know what motivates them on their end, or how coordinated or not they are.  There have been a few rare cases where threads have been found on their usual haunts purporting to encourage their members to show up on sites like this, but the actual effect of which is not verified.

What I do know is that site invasions have occured in the past where large groups of individuals from those sites and with those particular proclivities have shown up in packs on various websites to push their own little agenda, stuck around for a while until the mood turned sour enough, then promptly buggered off back to their own respective hidey-holes.

You can deny it all you want, the logs are there, on almost every website it's occurred on, it's a matter of public record.  And so are the various infamous statements and behaviors of these individuals, such as the "brain damage" nonsense, and the pirate rape fiasco, and so forth.

It's all there.  I'm sure for your purposes it's terribly inconvenient for such history to actually exist, as it sort of puts a hamper on pretending to be so much better than the rest of us if the events described actually occurred, but that is often the case when those with other motives seek to deny history.

Quote from: J Arcane;398801I wouldn't use the term "conspiracy", though I'm sure it sounds great to your ears because it furthers your goal of being pointlessly confrontational just to get a rise out of an easy target.

I don't know what motivates them on their end, or how coordinated or not they are.  There have been a few rare cases where threads have been found on their usual haunts purporting to encourage their members to show up on sites like this, but the actual effect of which is not verified.

What I do know is that site invasions have occured in the past where large groups of individuals from those sites and with those particular proclivities have shown up in packs on various websites to push their own little agenda, stuck around for a while until the mood turned sour enough, then promptly buggered off back to their own respective hidey-holes.

You can deny it all you want, the logs are there, on almost every website it's occurred on, it's a matter of public record.  And so are the various infamous statements and behaviors of these individuals, such as the "brain damage" nonsense, and the pirate rape fiasco, and so forth.

It's all there.  I'm sure for your purposes it's terribly inconvenient for such history to actually exist, as it sort of puts a hamper on pretending to be so much better than the rest of us if the events described actually occurred, but that is often the case when those with other motives seek to deny history.

I'm not pushing an agenda. I'm just skeptical that this whole forum invasion isn't just an exaggeration on your part.

If you link some threads I'll be happy to pore through them, and if you're right then I owe you a beer.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398804I'm not pushing an agenda. I'm just skeptical that this whole forum invasion isn't just an exaggeration on your part.

If you link some threads I'll be happy to pore through them, and if you're right then I owe you a beer.

I don't mean to accuse you of an agenda, so much as just a typical behavior I've encountered far too often to be anything but dismissive about.  

Some people just want to rebel, like teenagers snorting derisively at an old veteran, or putting on a Che shirt even if they don't even know what the hell it means, even if it means casually defending something that isn't exactly a glowing role model itself.  They just see an authority figure railing at something, and assume automatically he must be wrong.  It just happens on a faster timescale like everything else on the Internet.  Combine that with the attitude of many youth these days that anything negative is automatically bad, and you have a recipe for revisionism all baked up and ready to serve.

If my honest word, and that of countless others isn't enough for you, then I'm equally honest in saying I don't really care to do the work of your education for you.  Just don't be surprised when people call you an idiot for denying shit they've seen with their own two eyes a thousand times.

I'm tired of making the same blasted point again and again.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398804I'm not pushing an agenda. I'm just skeptical that this whole forum invasion isn't just an exaggeration on your part.

If you link some threads I'll be happy to pore through them, and if you're right then I owe you a beer.

It has to be true, otherwise J Arcane would have made his tinfoil hat for nothing.

Seriously, as soon as you use the word invsion for people with different opinions on a forum you need to step away from the keyboard as you are taking it way too seriously.

Come on has no one got the courage....

the bigest Villain is Gary Gygax....

I didn't even think of him. He has been meaningless for decades.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;398800I would also include rpg.net as villains, but what more can i say about that site, particularly the attitude of its moderators, that hasn't alreay been said. I don't think i've ever met such a temperamental and hypocritical group of people online. I don't like to communicate the way they do, especially online. The discussion is limited, fragile and oppressive. I just do not understand why they feel the need to ban people every time - and then, when someone questions a mdo decision, to get picked apart by vultures who seem to lack the wit to see the hypocrisy of their position. It's so very sad.

Yeah, the vultures who lurk on Trouble Tickets and pick over the remnants of modded threads on rpg.net are even worse. They are the worst, most brown-nosing, low-life scum of the earth, who exist only to point and sneer at the weak, while waiting for the mods to shit into their mouths so they can swallow it and think of themselves as somehow blessed. They give the hobby such a bad name; the only saving grace is that at least they're barely visible online and so obviously pathetic that it's tough to imagine them even leaving the house long enough to put anybody else off role playing.

Quote from: J Arcane;398806If my honest word, and that of countless others isn't enough for you, then I'm equally honest in saying I don't really care to do the work of your education for you.  Just don't be surprised when people call you an idiot for denying shit they've seen with their own two eyes a thousand times.

Count me as another pair of eyes Shaz. I guess you don't have to take any of our word for it, but I assure you as a former RPGnetter (1998-2006), there were definite periods of time during the early and mid oughties were you could easy scan their general RPG chat board and find normally ordinary threads that were derailed or closed because Forge-Fans showed up and tried to dominate the conversation in their own language.

Was it conspiracy? No. But it was a very distinct and interesting form of fans finding a new way to spoil their own fun.

Quote from: Saphim;398813It has to be true, otherwise J Arcane would have made his tinfoil hat for nothing.

Seriously, as soon as you use the word invsion for people with different opinions on a forum you need to step away from the keyboard as you are taking it way too seriously.

Then I'm a tin-hat wearer too, cuz I also have been around for this shit.

Quote from: Aos;398792Not to condone the stunt, but my understanding is that the module is actually pretty solid, and the use of the Jeff Easily (sp?) art is legit too.

The use of the Easley art seems legit, as far as I can tell. As for the quality of the module, no module using this kind of publicity stunt to sell more units can be that good. Or at least, it doesn't speak highly of the publisher's confidence in its own content.

Quote from: J Arcane;398795Still, it's an honest to god published hentai game, which probably never would've existed outside Japan if not for their influence.

Is it really, though?  I've never read the game itself, but everything else I've ever read anywhere just indicated it was a comedy harem game. Which, considering most harem comedies are PG and rarely involve any actual sexual activity, doesn't seem too bad to me.

Every publisher who fucks over writers, editors and artists. You are cheating people out of their living; you're scum.

Every thieving SOB who's ever destroyed (or threatened to destroy) a game company. Decipher, Guardians of Order, Palladium, Catalyst. You belong in jail.

Every unhygienic, socially inept gamer who contributes to a negative image of our hobby. Take a shower for pity's sake.

And of course, the idiots who write drivel like FATAL and RaHoWa. The world would be a better place without the likes of you.

Quote from: Claudius;398791Basically yes, few RPG forums have been free from forgies.

How true.

The SJG Forums seemed a pretty safe harbor from Forge stuff - until recently. A new poster in the past few months innocently starts a thread and he wants to shake up his GURPS game by adding 'Indie' and FORGE-speak terminology.

manyt of us had to convionce that he was adding complication to a game whose detractors already call complicated. Also, that the supposed thoings he wanted to add - were already doable in simpler ways while still keeping the game as a traditional RPG.

The poor guy probably read one too many internet articles then stumbled across the FORGE site.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398613I don't think that Ron Edwards or pundit have that kind of exposure or influence.

Certainly, I'm the only one of my gaming group who "knows" (i.e., even knows of) either name/identity. And even that is only because I've hit upon random shit on random sites at random times. What're the odds, hey?

Anecdotal evidence for the win. Woo!

Quote from: Sigmund;398830Then I'm a tin-hat wearer too, cuz I also have been around for this shit.

I never said that J was the only one on here who needs to step away from the keyboard.

"Board invasion" is a perfectly common term in Internet circles, and refers to any large group of people showing up en masse on a site to dominate or disrupt the conversation.  4chan and Something Awful are particularly frequent practitioners, and obvious ones of course, but smaller scale incidents do occur (Animalball attempted it here many times but their numbers were too pathetic to have much impact) and are part of the things one must deal with as a moderator of a forum.  IIRC, RPGnet actually used to have rules against it's members engaging in such behavior, I recall moderator intervention occuring in a thread or two discouraging users from showing up en masse on some site or another and winding up starting a cross-forum conflict.

That you would choose deny the existence of such behaviors says more about your determination to find the most uncharitable and trollish interpretation of language than it does about my sense of perspective.

Quote from: J Arcane;398925That you would choose deny the existence of such behaviors says more about your determination to find the most uncharitable and trollish interpretation of language than it does about my sense of perspective.

Get a grip. You are acting like a 5 year old.

Quote from: Saphim;398942Get a grip. You are acting like a 5 year old.

The only one I see demonstrating a total lack of maturity in this thread is you.

If you've an intelligent point to offer, feel free, but so far you've offered nothing but whining and childish insults.

Grow the fuck up.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;398626RPG.net

The culture there is consumeristic, derivative, shallow and focused on high concept games that are unplayable. The "What System for [Ephemeral Pop Trend]?" threads are paradigmatic of this problem.

And the few that are "genuinely" interested in a suggestion follow up with all manner of bullshit excuses to argue why it wouldn't work.  For a non-game example, some fucking douche-tard over there wanted suggestions for PDF creation software, then dismissed the proffered solutions because they didn't "install as a printer", whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean, so they could create pdfs from other software, and didn't want to do layout in a word processor.  Of course, I suggested the open source Scribus, which is specifically for pdf layouts.  I assume what they really meant was that they wanted to screen dump whatever shit was stuck to their display at the moment as a pdf, and pretend that was 'designing'.

I was sorely tempted to get a list of the 65million different shitty printer drivers for making PDFs from lmgtfy.com, but I don't want to deal with the hassle of the mod-queens bitching at me.

Quote from: Shazbot79;398797So you say.

Gamers can be right smug cunts when it comes down to it...but the idea of some overarching conspiracy to take over really just sounds like a paranoid fantasy to me.

Of course, I've not seen any actual evidence of the "Great Forge War" beyond cryptic anecdotes from cats like you and pundit.

The last 20 or so 'people' to sign up at the Citadel have all been spam-bots or the like.  I have something like 100 actual members, and a very much smaller number of regular contributors.  You would think someone in the spam community would pass the word around that the Citadel is really a worthless target for their stupid bullshit.

There is no overarching conspiracy to shut me down or anything, simply that a shitload of human detritus happened across my forums at roughly the same time, and probably mentioned it to some of their 'friends' because I didn't jump in and shut down their accounts immediately (and they are probably newish enough that they aren't showing up on BotScout yet).

Same thing with the Forge-ians.  A couple of them stumble on an unsuspecting forum, alert a couple of others, and before you know it you have a basement full of silverfish.

Quote from: Peregrin;398881Is it really, though?  I've never read the game itself, but everything else I've ever read anywhere just indicated it was a comedy harem game. Which, considering most harem comedies are PG and rarely involve any actual sexual activity, doesn't seem too bad to me.

I'll put it this way: if you made a film based on the actual play reports I've seen, it would only play in the scary theatres on the wrong side of town, the ones with sticky floors and a lot of guys in trenchcoats.

Also, the rape dildo, and the fact the whole concept is based on a cosplay fetish, doesn't help.

Quote from: J Arcane;398957I'll put it this way: if you made a film based on the actual play reports I've seen, it would only play in the scary theatres on the wrong side of town, the ones with sticky floors and a lot of guys in trenchcoats.

Also, the rape dildo, and the fact the whole concept is based on a cosplay fetish, doesn't help.

Oookay then.  I wasn't aware that it had items like that in the game.

Quote from: Saphim;398919I never said that J was the only one on here who needs to step away from the keyboard.

Perhaps you should stick to topics about which you have some knowledge and experience.

Quote from: Peregrin;398960Oookay then.  I wasn't aware that it had items like that in the game.

i dunno, the site (http://www.maidrpg.com/) seems to take an "ages 16+" angle to the game.  not exactly the rape dildo age group.

that said, looks like the pdf is only 7 bucks.  for that price i'll download it later and see how hentai it really is

Quote from: J Arcane;398945The only one I see demonstrating a total lack of maturity in this thread is you.

If you've an intelligent point to offer, feel free, but so far you've offered nothing but whining and childish insults.

Grow the fuck up.

"Buh huh the bad people from the other forum come here and post stuff".
That is SO mature of you.

Quote from: Bellman;398904Certainly, I'm the only one of my gaming group who "knows" (i.e., even knows of) either name/identity. And even that is only because I've hit upon random shit on random sites at random times. What're the odds, hey?

Anecdotal evidence for the win. Woo!

The one thing I have seen?

Internet forums don't count for FUCK ALL in reality.  All this RPGnet this and Forge that?

Doesn't affect actual real people RPGing in the slightest.  I have seen maybe one indie game played live ever and it was a con game one shot which the whole collaborative schtick sort of works for.  (Wouldn't do it for a regular game though.)

Hardly anything hot button in nerd forum circles is discussed or cared about in the real world.

Something we should all keep in mind.

Now as to villains?

Most of em have been listed.  Lorraine Williams for effectively killing TSR.  The Loren Colemans and CRISIS TREACHERY-ers of the industry.  Worthless apparently stealing hacks like Shipman.  The stinky nerds who act like assholes.

Basically douchebags are the villains.  Which is true for everything really.

Its like many people can't help but be cunts...

Quote from: Saphim;398813It has to be true, otherwise J Arcane would have made his tinfoil hat for nothing.

It is for nothing...except he has a nice shiny hat.

After all the Trad vs. Indie warble, the end result is...

1) Trad players play Trad.
2) Indie players play Indie. [or play Trad and yak about Indie]
3) Non-players play WoW and talk about playing RPGs.

Quote from: The Butcher;398898And of course, the idiots who write drivel like FATAL and RaHoWa. The world would be a better place without the likes of you.

I can't complain about them!  Waay too entertaining.

FATAL is so bugshit nuts that its the text version of a poop painting done by asylum inmates.  

Racial Holy War had this cool rule where your gun could gain levels.  I've really loved that idea and been looking how I can make that part of how magic items develop over a campaign.   We did it in 4e which was fun and probably became my default magic item concept for our 4e campaigns.

Quote from: beeber;398986that said, looks like the pdf is only 7 bucks.  for that price i'll download it later and see how hentai it really is

Yeahhh... no. Even for seven bucks, just... no.

Don't forget the murder condom!

Cue Grimgent in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

And the transparent uniform, of course.

There was likely very little good in this thread to begin with.

What possible little good it might have had has officially be engulfed in flames.

I'm pulling the orange lever and bailing out of this thread, I encourage others to join me.

Quote from: Saphim;398527Well, there is Kevin Siembieda who fucks his customers and writers over again and again and who milks the death of his friend for all it is worth. That is simply despiccable.

I was also a friend of Erick's, and I don't feel that way about Siembieda.  What's more, I've never heard anyone who was an honest-to-goodness friend of Erick's share that opinion, whereas a lot of people who range from "couldn't give a shit about Erick Wujcik" to "despised Wujcik almost as much as they despise Siembieda" are usually the ones who most want to present this kind of argument.

RPGPundit

There are, unfortunately, shitloads of minor-scale villains in this hobby. But I'd say that there are three who stood heads and tails above the rest in terms of damage done.
In both roughly-chronological order and order of "damage done to the hobby" (thus far):

1. Lorraine Williams

2. Mark Rein·Hagen

3. Ron Edwards.


RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;399128There are, unfortunately, shitloads of minor-scale villains in this hobby. But I'd say that there are three who stood heads and tails above the rest in terms of damage done.
In both roughly-chronological order and order of "damage done to the hobby" (thus far):

1. Lorraine Williams

2. Mark Rein·Hagen

3. Ron Edwards.


RPGPundit

I think you're being a bit harsh on Mark Rein Hagen. I'm not a great fan of Vampire: The Masquerade or most WoD stuff, really, but there's definitely a case to be made that those games did a lot to keep the hobby going in the 90s by bringing in young blood that TSR just wasn't. (I include quite a lot of people my age, i.e. now late 20s/early 30s, in that group.)

EDIT: By the way, have you seen his wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rein%C2%B7Hagen)? Is all that stuff about living in Tbilisi true or just some very weird practical joke?

Quote from: noisms;399131EDIT: By the way, have you seen his wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rein%C2%B7Hagen)? Is all that stuff about living in Tbilisi true or just some very weird practical joke?

"Sexiest Foreigner in Georgia" in 2007 and 2008!?!? WTF

Also, you gotta give him credit for being part of the duo behind Ars Magica.

Quote from: RPGPundit;3991282. Mark Rein·Hagen




Hmm, kind of leaning towards you there, pundster. I mean, the whole WoD may have brought in some gamers, but most of them weren't the kind of gamers a grognard like me would like gaming with.

And I thought the WoD games got a little too sick, which is why I dropped them. lastly, without VTM we'd never have had rod farrell connected to gaming...

Quote from: RPGPundit;399125I was also a friend of Erick's, and I don't feel that way about Siembieda.  What's more, I've never heard anyone who was an honest-to-goodness friend of Erick's share that opinion, whereas a lot of people who range from "couldn't give a shit about Erick Wujcik" to "despised Wujcik almost as much as they despise Siembieda" are usually the ones who most want to present this kind of argument.

RPGPundit

In general, I agree.
But some of Palladium's last E-Bay Auctions have included items of Erick's, with signed Authenticity Certificates (not signed by Erick), that they were Erick's books.

I understand the idea of an estate sale, but the way it was presented was a little ghoulish.

Quote from: RPGPundit;3991282. Mark Rein·Hagen

You know, I'm not a fan of WW, but WoD brought in a lot of new blood, especially a female component in an industry that was very male-dominated prior to it.

For the bad it's brought, I think it's well exceeded by the good.

(But then again, you also said "Mark Rein·Hagen", not "WoD folk", so maybe you have a concrete reason to think the dude is a douche, too...)

I think that if you analyze it carefully, the number of people who were ultimately driven away from gaming due to the direction White-Wolf's Swinery led the hobby vastly outnumbers the people who were brought into the hobby by games like Vampire; particularly when you consider that 90s "storyteller games" fans were far more likely to not engage in the hobby as a whole, and had far less staying power in terms of continuing to game after a while.

White Wolf's "Vampire boom" is the classic example of something that looks like a positive influence at first glance but when you crunch the numbers behind the scenes and look at long-term impacts turns out to have been a really bad idea.

RPGPundit

It attempted to turn RPGs into some sort of "adult" hobby for pseudo-artists who want "depth" in role playing because it is "art"... and in the end, it contaminated the RPG scene that could have otherwise concentrated on cool shit like miniatures, crazy universes and stuff.

Intellectual wankery of prententious know-it-all.

Also, metaplot.  

I hate fucking metaplot.

1) Anyone who was involved in TSR in a leadership capacity after about 1988.

2) Gen Con leadership ($1200 for a 10x10 space?  Really?  How do gun shows of the same size and caliber manage to sell the same space for $100, charge $10 admission and manage to make *more* money?)

3) Darren McClellan (Amongst the people that I know, if he asks for a copy of a game to review, he will be provided one -- at no less than double the cover price.  It's sad how many games he has personally destroyed by simply expressing his opinion--which is no less smelly than his rectal orifice.)

Quote from: Vellorian;3992341) Anyone who was involved in TSR in a leadership capacity after about 1988.

2) Gen Con leadership ($1200 for a 10x10 space?  Really?  How do gun shows of the same size and caliber manage to sell the same space for $100, charge $10 admission and manage to make *more* money?)

3) Darren McClellan (Amongst the people that I know, if he asks for a copy of a game to review, he will be provided one -- at no less than double the cover price.  It's sad how many games he has personally destroyed by simply expressing his opinion--which is no less smelly than his rectal orifice.)

If you're talking about the rpg.net mod darren maclennan, I agree with you.

BTW, his review of wraethu was originally so laden with hate speech and abuse it had to be edited heavily because in some areas it was considered hate speech and incitement to violence.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;398626RPG.net

The culture there is consumeristic, derivative, shallow and focused on high concept games that are unplayable. The "What System for [Ephemeral Pop Trend]?" threads are paradigmatic of this problem.

I'm not sure about the bigger picture but on my own personal level that site had a negative effect on my gaming outlook... the 'culture' of that place just turned me right off gaming till I realized that most of those sorry bastards aren't playing anything at all... just buying shit and wishing.

Games Workshop for being so fucking corporate and shitting all over every good thing they've ever made.

Who was that who had a shit fit over Hackmaster winning an award?  Yeah, that guy.

Also, most of you people.

edit: the Blume brothers, too.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;399272Also, most of you people.

I feel warm inside. :pundit: ;)

Quote from: RPGPundit;399204I think that if you analyze it carefully, the number of people who were ultimately driven away from gaming due to the direction White-Wolf's Swinery led the hobby vastly outnumbers the people who were brought into the hobby by games like Vampire; particularly when you consider that 90s "storyteller games" fans were far more likely to not engage in the hobby as a whole, and had far less staying power in terms of continuing to game after a while.

White Wolf's "Vampire boom" is the classic example of something that looks like a positive influence at first glance but when you crunch the numbers behind the scenes and look at long-term impacts turns out to have been a really bad idea.
RPGPundit

I am having a hard time understanding that argument, could you elaborate? Are you saying, that roleplayers that were already there (playing D&D and Shadowrun) stopped because of WW/WoD, or that the influx of new members to the hobby stopped because WW/WoD were the (most)prolific game and genre? Or just that the gamers who joined playing Vampire, left when they didn’t wanna play Vampire anymore?

No matter what, I don’t see White Wolf could cause more people to be driven away from the hobby, than actually joined it? Out there, a lot of people are still playing Vampire...

Quote from: Benoist;399274I feel warm inside. :pundit: ;)

Oh, you know the old truism:
"Give a man fire, he's warm for a night; light a man on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life..."

Quote from: RPGPundit;399204I think that if you analyze it carefully, the number of people who were ultimately driven away from gaming due to the direction White-Wolf's Swinery led the hobby vastly outnumbers the people who were brought into the hobby by games like Vampire; particularly when you consider that 90s "storyteller games" fans were far more likely to not engage in the hobby as a whole, and had far less staying power in terms of continuing to game after a while.

White Wolf's "Vampire boom" is the classic example of something that looks like a positive influence at first glance but when you crunch the numbers behind the scenes and look at long-term impacts turns out to have been a really bad idea.

RPGPundit

I don't think a single person stopped playing RPGs because of the direction White-Wolf's Swinery led the hobby. I think lots of people during the 90s stopped playing RPGs because they get older and family, employment and other entertainments, hobbies and distractions took over.

I'd like to see what numbers you've crunched to back up your argument.

I've heard that quite a few people who've worked for or with SJG think it's lord is more than a bit of an asshole.


 Seeing how the guy who wrote, I think it was, gurps russia got treated on the SJG forums (Being refrred to as "He who must not be named" and other petty, childish bullshit.)they may have something there.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;399272Who was that who had a shit fit over Hackmaster winning an award?  Yeah, that guy.

Oooh, good call. Wish I could recall who that was. I think he flipped out over HackMaster winning the Origins' "Game of the Year, 2001" award.

Quote from: Novastar;399281Oh, you know the old truism:
"Give a man fire, he's warm for a night; light a man on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life..."

LOL Nice. :D

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;399338Oooh, good call. Wish I could recall who that was. I think he flipped out over HackMaster winning the Origins' "Game of the Year, 2001" award.

Oh that guy. We talked about him in an epic thread here about "Vintage Gaming: Rose-colored glasses?" It's in a post of Melan with a zillion quotes sampling the opinion, and at the end, he reposts this guy's rant. Epic Douchebag.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;399338Oooh, good call. Wish I could recall who that was. I think he flipped out over HackMaster winning the Origins' "Game of the Year, 2001" award.

If they actually manage to get it done in time, I think there's a good chance that Advanced HM will do it again next year.

FOUND HIM.

It was Bruce Baugh.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;399359FOUND HIM.

It was Bruce Baugh.

Were there any repercussions or reprisals?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;399359FOUND HIM.

It was Bruce Baugh.

Ha! He doesn't have a right to bemoan anything.

I'm pretty sure he's put his RPG writing on hiatus, last I heard.

Quote from: mhensley;399358If they actually manage to get it done in time, I think there's a good chance that Advanced HM will do it again next year.

I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Maybe someone can mail baugh a review copy.

lolololol

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;399280I am having a hard time understanding that argument, could you elaborate? Are you saying, that roleplayers that were already there (playing D&D and Shadowrun) stopped because of WW/WoD, or that the influx of new members to the hobby stopped because WW/WoD were the (most)prolific game and genre? Or just that the gamers who joined playing Vampire, left when they didn't wanna play Vampire anymore?

No matter what, I don't see White Wolf could cause more people to be driven away from the hobby, than actually joined it? Out there, a lot of people are still playing Vampire...

I'm saying, let's assign a number to the people who joined RPGs because of white wolf. Let's say "100".

Ok, great, you say, that's a net gain of 100 gamers!
Except that White Wolf swine weren't particularly keen on crossing over to other games, lots of those people saw playing "vampire" as part of a totally different hobby, they weren't so much getting into rpgs as a whole, as they were playing ONE RPG (vampire) as part of their existing hobby (pretending to be a vampire, being a goth, pretentious wankery out of touch with reality, etc.).
So let's say that 40 of those 100 never play anything but Vampire and quit the hobby after a relatively short while.
That means that the gain is +60.

But meanwhile, White Wolf became hugely influential. The entire hobby looked and said "wow, they got +100 players! We have to be just like them!!".

What this means is that the whole hobby changed into metaplot and pretentious wankery. And gamers who weren't into that were shit out of luck.  Suddenly, you have a number of people leaving the hobby. Let's call that 100 too (though I think that its a conservative number).

Suddenly, the net loss is -40.

But we're not done yet; you also have to count all the people that WOULD have joined gaming, had it still been quick and easy to do so, with a focus on having fun, rather than requiring elaborate "splat" books and black eyeshadow on men, and talking a lot about Art and not actually doing anything.    The kids said "Gaming? it used to be about kicking ass in dungeons, but now its for college-age guys listening to the Cure and questioning their sexuality", and they get into Magic or online games or pokemon instead. So that is a loss of 100, every year, for the better part of a decade.

So now the value representing the total contribution to gaming's popularity thanks to White Wolf is something like -640!

White Wolf was the classic wrong-turn in the hobby, where pretty much everyone (with a couple of notable exceptions, like Steve Jackson or Kevin Siembieda) saw the short-term dollar signs of latching the entire hobby onto a  FAD (Pretentious Goth Vampire-Wankery), that seemed to show big short-term potential gains (never mind that pretty much NO gaming company other than white wolf itself ever had any prolonged success with the metaplot-heavy splat-book pretentious "storytelling game" model) without any thought to the long-term consequences.

RPGPundit

Quote from: noisms;399286I don't think a single person stopped playing RPGs because of the direction White-Wolf's Swinery led the hobby.

I did. I specifically quit, for about a six-month period, on account of how sick I was of the general collapse of the hobby and the sort of shit that was coming out at that point.  The hobby stopped being fun anymore. I heard that again and again from people who quit in the gaming circles I was in back then.  Out of 20 or 30 people who were in my general gaming environment back then, I know of only one other person (besides me) who I am still absolutely sure games.

RPGPundit

Bruce Baugh isn't worthy of the title of "biggest villain", unless you're talking in terms of literally biggest, as in "most rolling mounds of fat".

He's just a pathetic bloated gasbag, a worthless talentless loser who turns any game he touches to shit.

RPGPundit

Ironic how White Wolf jumped onto the d20 bandwagon shortly thereafter.

If WW had not jumped onto the d20 bandwagon at the time, wonder what would have happened.

Pundit, you sound like everything stopped and went goth in 1991, but it didn't, did it?

Same year as Vampire came out (1991) TSR put out Rules Encyclopedia and the amount of supported settings for AD&D was freakin' huge from 1989 and onwards.  In 1992 Chaosium put out the, in my opinion, best edition of Call of Cthulhu, FASA published second edition Shadowrun and Atlas Games gave the world my all time favorite rpg book, Over the Edge 1st edition. Just to name a few, that was blissfully wank free!

Sure Vampire became popular, but that it had an actually negative effect on the other games I don't believe for a second. There were, and still is, plenty of options for quick, easy and completely ungoth ways to get into the hobby, for the yearly +100 you include in your equation and I never heard of a single person who quit playing what they thought was fun, because someone else in the hobby started playing Vampire.  If there was a decline in the roleplaying circles in this period of time, I find the explanation about people growing up and getting other priorities much more likely (A lot of people started gaming in the late 70s/early 80s while teenagers. 12-15 years later they hit an age of kids/job/lawns needing to get mowed, and a large group of those gamers stop gaming – circle of nerd life)

To me it seems like you in your dislike for Vampire gives them far more (negative) credit than they deserve.

Quote from: RPGPundit;399391Bruce Baugh isn't worthy of the title of "biggest villain", unless you're talking in terms of literally biggest, as in "most rolling mounds of fat".

He's just a pathetic bloated gasbag, a worthless talentless loser who turns any game he touches to shit.

I had to read this twice because I thought you were talking about Darren McClellan....

Everything you said applies to him equally....


At least Bruce has actually produced something...

Quote from: Vellorian;399399I had to read this twice because I thought you were talking about Darren McClellan....

Everything you said applies to him equally....


At least Bruce has actually produced something...

Have you seen the shit Bruce has produced? The game that stole the "gamma world" name alone is good enough to make him beat out Darren.  Darren could only hope to be as huge a turd if he made a game that sucked at least that much (AND ruined a beloved license and legacy of a game in the process).

RPGPundit

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;399395Pundit, you sound like everything stopped and went goth in 1991, but it didn't, did it?

Same year as Vampire came out (1991) TSR put out Rules Encyclopedia and the amount of supported settings for AD&D was freakin' huge from 1989 and onwards.  In 1992 Chaosium put out the, in my opinion, best edition of Call of Cthulhu, FASA published second edition Shadowrun and Atlas Games gave the world my all time favorite rpg book, Over the Edge 1st edition. Just to name a few, that was blissfully wank free!

Certainly, but it was a gradual process. The whole following-white-wolf's-example thing wasn't even at full gear until around 1994, and continued right up till 1999 even after it was extremely clear that just about everyone who allowed White Wolf to be their intellectual vanguard went bankrupt (including TSR).

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;399402Have you seen the shit Bruce has produced? The game that stole the "gamma world" name alone is good enough to make him beat out Darren.  Darren could only hope to be as huge a turd if he made a game that sucked at least that much (AND ruined a beloved license and legacy of a game in the process).

Y'know, I even rank the producers of FATAL and RoHaHaHaHa! (or whatever it's called) above Darren McClellan--because even though they produced crap, distasteful and grotesque books, at least they *produced* something and haven't spent a lifetime offensively berating others who achieve something.

That being said, was it Bruce that was responsible for destroying Macho Women With Guns, too?

Quote from: RPGPundit;399390I did. I specifically quit, for about a six-month period, on account of how sick I was of the general collapse of the hobby and the sort of shit that was coming out at that point.  The hobby stopped being fun anymore. I heard that again and again from people who quit in the gaming circles I was in back then.  Out of 20 or 30 people who were in my general gaming environment back then, I know of only one other person (besides me) who I am still absolutely sure games.

RPGPundit

I don't understand how it affected you at all. I mean, I disliked, and still have no use for, World of Darkness stuff. Back then, I simply went on playing what I'd always played and just ignored White Wolf. The reason my gaming came to a halt was because my groups disintegrated - some of them moved, some went to college, some got married, some had kids.

Another factor was that AD&D 2e met with a resounding lack of enthusiasm by what players I still had left by the early 90s. We'd wanted a new iteration of AD&D, having become fatigued of 1e after a decade or more, and when 2e didn't float our boats, we didn't have a lot to turn to that sparked our enthusiasm. We wanted D&D, but not the flavors available then. Had 3e (or hell, HackMaster) appeared instead of 2e, we might have played on through the rest of the 90s. But, maybe not. Maybe we just needed a break. Regardless, I can't imagine being driven out of the hobby by a game or genre I had no interest in in the first place. Then again, the only gaming "community" any of us had been part of had just been our local groups.

Quote from: Vellorian;399405Y'know, I even rank the producers of FATAL and RoHaHaHaHa! (or whatever it's called) above Darren McClellan--because even though they produced crap, distasteful and grotesque books, at least they *produced* something and haven't spent a lifetime offensively berating others who achieve something.

That being said, was it Bruce that was responsible for destroying Macho Women With Guns, too?

When was MWWG destroyed?

http://www.btrc.net/html/catmain.html#MWWG

Quote from: Cylonophile;399427When was MWWG destroyed?

http://www.btrc.net/html/catmain.html#MWWG

I was pretty disgusted with the version off it I saw in ... 2004?

Quote from: Vellorian;399405Y'know, I even rank the producers of FATAL and RoHaHaHaHa! (or whatever it's called) above Darren McClellan--because even though they produced crap, distasteful and grotesque books, at least they *produced* something and haven't spent a lifetime offensively berating others who achieve something.

I understand the feeling and empathize, though I really think FATAL and RaHoWa really belong to the pantheon of RPG horrors. Darren is just a douchebag. Nothing to get too worked up about. Best to just ignore the guy.

I don't know who this darren mcclellan guy is since apparently I don;t get into the games genre he writes for or whatever, but I think that rpg.net's darren maclennan deserves a dishonorable mention for writing a review of wraethu that was so laden with hate speech and incitement to violence it had to be censored as it was illegal in some countries.

I guess some fat kids beat him up in school no now he hates fat people so badly he likes to write about assaulting them.

Quote from: Novastar;3986212) Eric Gibson of d6 Games (I want Septimus in dead tree, dammit!)

Wow, you got this one totally wrong:

1) Eric Gibson owns West End Games (which has sold off most of their properties and he is letting the name die) not D6 games

2) Septimus was available in Dead Tree format.

Might want to check your facts before you post

Quote from: Cylonophile;399458I don't know who this darren mcclellan guy is since apparently I don;t get into the games genre he writes for or whatever, but I think that rpg.net's darren maclennan deserves a dishonorable mention for writing a review of wraethu that was so laden with hate speech and incitement to violence it had to be censored as it was illegal in some countries.

I guess some fat kids beat him up in school no now he hates fat people so badly he likes to write about assaulting them.

That is the Darth McClellan we're talking about--and *he* was the "fat kid" that people beat up and uses his vitriolic writing to somehow justify his meager ego.

On the topic of "hate speech", that term really, really irks me.  I'm a lover of freedom and believe that everyone has the right to say anything they want in any way that they want in any medium that they can afford--and, of course, bear the brunt of any consequences for the saying of it.  I despise the idea that governments try to control the freedom of speech.  

Once you give a government the right to regulate speech (and through speech, thinking processes), you give them the power to do that to anything that they define as "wrong".  Thus, when the winds of societal change blow through (which happens ever few decades), that government now has the power to do the exact opposite of the original intent.

Imagine if tomorrow, "hate speech" was defined as "accepting of homosexuality in any way, shape or form" or if the fundy-churchians took over the government and managed to change society such that any form of gender equality communication was "hate speech"...  It's entirely possible.

Better to make a free society where ideas and thoughts--no matter how tasteful or distasteful--can be shared openly and freely.  

Basically, "therpgsite" vs "the site that shall not be named".

I'd much rather live in the society like "therpgsite".  :)

The concept of "hate speech" needs to go the way of the dodo...

Quote from: Vellorian;399464On the topic of "hate speech", that term really, really irks me.  I'm a lover of freedom and believe that everyone has the right to say anything they want in any way that they want in any medium that they can afford--and, of course, bear the brunt of any consequences for the saying of it.  I despise the idea that governments try to control the freedom of speech.

They don't even have to regulate speech formally.

Without the stick, they just "regulate speech" by brainwashing, indoctrination, and societal peer pressure.

Quote from: ggroy;399466They don't even have to regulate speech formally.

Without the stick, they just "regulate speech" by brainwashing, indoctrination, and societal peer pressure.

Yeah.  Let's not bog down this discussion with my "radical" thoughts on the ideas of just letting people live their own lives without trying to "guide, direct and control" them.  ;)

Quote from: Vellorian;399468"guide, direct and control" them.  ;)

Television is most effective brainwashing device ever invented.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: ggroy;399469Television is most effective brainwashing device ever invented.  :rolleyes:

Don't you know it doesn't count when corporations do it?  That's just free enterprise at work!

Quote from: J Arcane;399472Don't you know it doesn't count when corporations do it?  That's just free enterprise at work!

I heard a writer espouse something at GenCon that I nearly gagged when I heard.  He said he was writing a story about corporations colonizing Mars and deliberately killing the first colonists to make a profit because, "only corporations would be that heartless, governments take care of their people!"

I nearly laughed my ass off!

I'll make no excuses for corporations--but governments are *far* more sinister and evil things--who only barely rival religious organizations...

Quote from: J Arcane;399472Don't you know it doesn't count when corporations do it?  That's just free enterprise at work!

****  Buy more crap! ****

**** Procreate! ****

**** We're At War With Martians! ****

:D

Quote from: Vellorian;399473I'll make no excuses for corporations--but governments are *far* more sinister and evil things--who only barely rival religious organizations...

Corporations owning the government?

Quote from: ggroy;399475Corporations owning the government?

Well, when you consider that the Federal Reserve "owns" and controls our economy--and the Federal Reserve is owned by 13 European banks, it's not very far-fetched to realize that our government is owned by the European banking cartels.

I read some interesting stuff on governments and corporations that purported that we really do live in a feudal society--it's just that our "feudal lords" are corporate entities and the "battlefields" are the courts.

Quote from: Vellorian;399478Well, when you consider that the Federal Reserve "owns" and controls our economy--and the Federal Reserve is owned by 13 European banks, it's not very far-fetched to realize that our government is owned by the European banking cartels.

Which ones?

Guesses could be:

- Union Bank of Switzerland
- Barclays
- Deutsche Bank

Quote from: ggroy;399482Which ones?

Guesses could be:

- Union Bank of Switzerland
- Barclays
- Deutsche bank

I used to work for the Fed.  I can tell you some stories that, at the time, seemed just strange--but now that I've done some research on the Fed chill me to the bone.

Two in England.  At least one in Italy.  Two in Austria.  I don't know them all for certain.  But, I have a "candidate list" of about 25 and I'm probably 75-80% correct.

Quote from: Vellorian;399464That is the Darth McClellan we're talking about--and *he* was the "fat kid" that people beat up and uses his vitriolic writing to somehow justify his meager ego.
.

OK, I'm getting confused here. There's daren MACCLENNAN who's a mod on the purple dump that has openly said that the thousand and one rules against personal attacks don't apply to overweight people and who has attacked overweight people in ways that would get anyone else banned if they'd said the same things about any other group and who wrote a wraethu review so laden with hate and violence against overweight people it had to be censored because it violated hate speech and incitement to violence laws in some areas.

Is he this "darren mcclellan" guy you're talking about? The names are different but I admit similar. If so he must be a self hating overweight person.

As to hate speech laws, do you really believe that someone has a right to say something like "All (insert racist, ethnic, religious sexual slur here) are evil and should be shot on sight?" Do you really believe that? Should a redneck be allowed to say "If the goddam monkey worshippers try to build a mosque here we oughtta burn it down?" Do you really think people should be able to use speech with the intent of creating harm and violence towards other people?

Hate speech laws aren't perfect, but they do address a necessary issue: The issue of people who use free speech as a cover to incite violence and crimes.

BTW, even on this site someone would not be allowed to say something like "Well, I hate jews so I'm going to make them a NPC evil race in my game I'm writing. How many XP do you think I should give players for killing them?" Hell even pundit and I wouldn't want that and I think pundit would either ban the guy or have people leave the board until he did.

RAHOWA proves there are limits to free speech even most gamers believe in.

Quote from: Cylonophile;399503Is he this "darren mcclellan" guy you're talking about?

Yes.

Quote from: Benoist;399504Yes.

OK, well not to nag but people are consistently misspelling his name which is kind of confusing....

Quote from: Daedalus;399460Wow, you got this one totally wrong:

1) Eric Gibson owns West End Games (which has sold off most of their properties and he is letting the name die) not D6 games

Fair enough, though for most people d6 is synonymous with WEG; but you are right, I used the wrong company name.

Quote2) Septimus was available in Dead Tree format.

Might want to check your facts before you post

Fuck when?

I'm not talking, taking a .pdf down to Kinko's or getting POD with Lulu or some other service, I'm talking getting the book from Amazon or my FLGS. I'm talking about getting a physical hard or softbound book off a shelf, and being able to point to it when people ask what game we're playing.

Quote from: Novastar;399511Fair enough, though for most people d6 is synonymous with WEG; but you are right, I used the wrong company name.


Fuck when?

I'm not talking, taking a .pdf down to Kinko's or getting POD with Lulu or some other service, I'm talking getting the book from Amazon or my FLGS. I'm talking about getting a physical hard or softbound book off a shelf, and being able to point to it when people ask what game we're playing.

From what I heard septimus was only released in pdf form and POD. According to the entry for WEG in wikipedia it was done as POD.

Quote from: RPGPundit;399390I did. I specifically quit, for about a six-month period, on account of how sick I was of the general collapse of the hobby and the sort of shit that was coming out at that point.  The hobby stopped being fun anymore. I heard that again and again from people who quit in the gaming circles I was in back then.  Out of 20 or 30 people who were in my general gaming environment back then, I know of only one other person (besides me) who I am still absolutely sure games.

RPGPundit

This makes no sense. Were people putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play Vampire, or something?

There are lots of games that I hate and it mildly annoys me that other people play them. But it would never stop my own game sessions being fun. Is it not possible all those people who you know who stopped gaming did so for another reason?

Quote from: noisms;399552This makes no sense. Were people putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play Vampire, or something?

Yes and No. It changed the face of the industry and more importantly it changed the nature of the gaming stores. And this is coming from someone who eventually got int WW gaming because of MAGE. But I'll get to that.

What happened was suddenly in-store games all changed to WW games. Not bad right? But it cut the other options down to almost nil in the larger markets. The punk-goth fad of the 90's was in full swing and a lot of store looked at the short term gain. Kinda the same way the Comics industry bought into it's self hype around the same time.

I survived via Cyberpunk 2020 and GURPS at the time and thankfully had a dedicated group. But then the game invaded even my local groups. I didn't like Vampire and Werewolf seemed racist (strange). When Mage came out I loved the system (long before I understood the Storyteller's mechanical issues) and pushed hard to get a game. I did eventually find one...using GURPS's varient of the rules and then a seperate session using WW's rules. (No guess as to which ran smoother.)

What I painfully discovered was that unless it was a Vampire/Werewolf game most of the new players were not interested in WW's less popular stuff. I couldn't find anyone to play Wraith, etc. I had more luck and fun with WW's non-WOD material than their their core stuff. (Aberrant, Trinity, Adventure!, Exalted) When the WW games started to die off locally I went back to GURPS or D&D (as 3rd Edition was happening then.) And eventualy all except the hardcore fans had moved on. More recent products like Exalted 2nd Edition, ICONS, and the all-but end of their print runs have proven to me that WW's business model is way off as a publisher. The mechanic became more and more arcane and the people trumpeting the lack of metaplot didn't notice that their original fans came into the game because of it. (And contineud to try and apply metaplot rules to their games even against their wishes. This is why the new Scarlet Empress book is looked at by a lot of Exalted fans as the end of the line. They asigned metaplot signfiicance to it. Before it was the death knell of WW Player's Guides with their broketastic merit/flaws and new rules varients. Different story.) CCP's buyout kinda clinched it.

What WW did was carve their own nitch. And that nitch filled with people interested in that very specific style of game. In much the same way I think D&D did at first until other games started filling out the market options. WW didn't help their case when they alienated the oWOD fans with the nWOD.

I think I understand why Games Workshop treats their RPG business the way they do. It's not their nitch. One can be made, Dark Heresy proves this, but a lot of companies are hyper specialized for their market.

So to Pundits point. Very little net gain, but a huge potential for net loss as the hobby ages. Especially if it bottlenecks new development of other products. See the d20 revolution and the near death/rebirth of indy development. Still, one companies death throws won't sink the industry as long as new developers keep trying different products and genres. But attitude and a strong business sense is needed in todays market.

Quote from: ggroy;399469Television is most effective brainwashing device ever invented.  :rolleyes:

Maybe in its era - I'd say the Internet is now the most effective brainwashing device ever invented.

Quote from: noisms;399552This makes no sense. Were people putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play Vampire, or something?

There are lots of games that I hate and it mildly annoys me that other people play them. But it would never stop my own game sessions being fun. Is it not possible all those people who you know who stopped gaming did so for another reason?

There were of course people in small groups who just went "into the wilderness", their little groups playing the same old games completely cut off from the rest of the hobby, but that, for all intents and purposes, counts as leaving the hobby.

The hobby as a living thing was nearly both completely subverted and simultaneously driven to near-demise by the WW-imitators by the end of the 90s. Had Adkinson and Dancey not stepped up and given us D20, it would have been the end.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Cylonophile;399507OK, well not to nag but people are consistently misspelling his name which is kind of confusing....

It's a way of insulting him.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;399783It's a way of insulting him.

Which is almost unnecessary, because his existence is insult enough.  ;)

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;399783It's a way of insulting him.

Ok I can see that.

It's still weird a guy who was supposedly an abused fat kid would be so abusive to overweight people, tho. His original wraethu review had to be cut due to the extremity of the hate in it.

Quote from: Cylonophile;399795Ok I can see that.

It's still weird a guy who was supposedly an abused fat kid would be so abusive to overweight people, tho. His original wraethu review had to be cut due to the extremity of the hate in it.

Is this related to the notion of people who were severely abused as kids, become abusers as adults?

Quote from: ggroy;399797Is this related to the notion of people who were severely abused as kids, become abusers as adults?

Hmm, I think it's more like people often have their justified hate against their abusers turn into self hatred if they can't strike back enough to vent it.

 Understanding this might make me fell a little sorry for maclennan, but if I meet him anywhere I'm still going literally  to spit in his face.

Quote from: Benoist;399274I feel warm inside. :pundit: ;)

Set a man on fi-oh shit we did that already.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;399809Set a man on fi-oh shit we did that already.

That's right. I feel just as warm outside, now. :D

Quote from: thedungeondelver;399809Set a man on fi-oh shit we did that already.

That is actually one of the tests I used to have for console RPGs.  Can I run my dude into a fire and take damage?  Further, was the graphic effect of running around after immolating him cool or not?  :)

Quote from: ggroy;399469Television is most effective brainwashing device ever invented.  :rolleyes:

Incorrect. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq4t_DjeF_k&feature=related)

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;399853Incorrect. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq4t_DjeF_k&feature=related)

Ha! The leaders of the world's main religions sneer at hypnotoads ability to turn people into mindlessly obedient willing slaves to it's whims!

Quote from: StormBringer;399830That is actually one of the tests I used to have for console RPGs.  Can I run my dude into a fire and take damage?  Further, was the graphic effect of running around after immolating him cool or not?  :)

The best video game series of all time, and your theory is a nice corollary to it, is Syphon Filter.  Syphon Filter has a "non-lethal" method of subduing your opponents: use a taser.  However, if you tase your target too long, they'll die.  Then begin to smolder.  Then catch fire.  The longer you tase them, the more furious they'll burn.  The game has no real built in limit on how long this can last.  You can hit a target with the taser and put a book on the fire button and come back in a couple of hours to your agent standing a few feet from a twitching, blackened, flaming vertical human match.

let's slag off rpg.net some more.

And the fucker i lent my copy of 1e DC Heroes too who never returned that box of delights.

And Virgin megastore for giving up on selling rpgs.

And Travelling Man for being utterly clueless as a games (and comics/memoraibillia) shop.

And Daedalus Games for dying onits arse off the back of feng shui and the rather brilliant shadowfist.

And white wolf for releasing 2 equally crapulent editions of Exalted and ruining it with the worst ruleset i've ever seen while abandoning the brilliant Trinityverse.

And every gaming shop for never stocking Book of Sigils for Falkenstein.

Don't get me wrong, Darren's moderation (heh there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one) was hilarious back when tbp was still a free and open forum for public discussion.  The problem was that for a couple years after they clamped down he was still out there being a complete dick while his victims weren't even permitted to reply in kind.  Which led to the frustration and flaming of the mod wars that went on for years.

What eventually came out of it all was the biggest independant rpg forums becoming sanitized and stale.  Try to discuss anything with the least bit of passion or deviation from the enforced politically correct ideology and you're banned.

The only time I ever got banned was for discussing D&D and its fans.  And that was for a pretty tame statement that the largest game would automatically have the most cat-piss men.

So yeah, I'd nominate Darren McLennan for one of the biggest villains.  His methods are largely responsible for the big purple toilet as it exists today.

You guys are joking right?

He doen't even qualify as a mini-me.

My last official act on TBP was to report Darren for violating site rules, per his goading "suggestion".

You see how well that worked. :)

One of the things that took me from Tangency cliquer to Mod shitlister was going after Maclennan for his bullshit, and Eric Brennan for his refusal to do anything about it.

Quote from: David Johansen;399897So yeah, I'd nominate Darren McLennan for one of the biggest villains.  His methods are largely responsible for the big purple toilet as it exists today.

The problem is, RPG.net (like any other message board) is basically irrelevant to the RPG industry as a whole. Being people who spend their time on such messageboards, we naturally overestimate their importance. But the moderation policy on a particular board has near-zero effect on the RPG industry, and as such calling a mod one of the industry's biggest villains is silly.

Quote from: Fifth Element;399946The problem is, RPG.net (like any other message board) is basically irrelevant to the RPG industry as a whole. Being people who spend their time on such messageboards, we naturally overestimate their importance. But the moderation policy on a particular board has near-zero effect on the RPG industry, and as such calling a mod one of the industry's biggest villains is silly.

I agree we widely overestimate the importance of message boards in general. Yet it seems some professionals themselves give some weight to what people say on RPG boards. So I would say that if generally they do not matter at all, they can have a selective influence on some game designs out there, depending on the particular people building the games and how they consider message boards content as far as feedback/research is concerned.

Quote from: Benoist;399949I agree we widely overestimate the importance of message boards in general. Yet it seems some professionals themselves give some weight to what people say on RPG boards. So I would say that if generally they do not matter at all, they can have a selective influence on some game designs out there, depending on the particular people building the games and how they consider message boards content as far as feedback/research is concerned.

That's fair, but I don't think the moderation policy of a board has a whole lot to do with the content you're referring to here. It's easy to overestimate the effect of moderation policy as well. I don't see the signal-to-noise ratio being any better here, despite an utter lack of moderation. All the cunting gets in the way of the freedom of speech, making this place as messy as any other board.

Quote from: RPGPundit;399388I'm saying, let's assign a number to the people who joined RPGs because of white wolf. Let's say "100".

Ok, great, you say, that's a net gain of 100 gamers!

Except that White Wolf swine weren't particularly keen on crossing over to other games, lots of those people saw playing "vampire" as part of a totally different hobby, they weren't so much getting into rpgs as a whole, as they were playing ONE RPG (vampire) as part of their existing hobby (pretending to be a vampire, being a goth, pretentious wankery out of touch with reality, etc.).
So let's say that 40 of those 100 never play anything but Vampire and quit the hobby after a relatively short while.
That means that the gain is +60.

Do you say similarly stupid shit about the hundreds of thousands of D&D players who only play D&D?  Christ almighty...

KoOS

Quote from: Fifth Element;399946The problem is, RPG.net (like any other message board) is basically irrelevant to the RPG industry as a whole. Being people who spend their time on such messageboards, we naturally overestimate their importance. But the moderation policy on a particular board has near-zero effect on the RPG industry, and as such calling a mod one of the industry's biggest villains is silly.

This isn't much different than people who like to constantly argue about politics at a local watering hole, and think that they're actually making huge waves politically.  The "echo chamber" of the local watering hole.

Same can probably be said about letters to the editor of a newspaper or magazine.

Didn't the-site-that-shall-not-be-named face a defamation lawsuit due to McClennan?

No, just the threat of one. Koltar is banned for making a joke about it, which as much as he and I don't get along, I will admit is an overreaction on the rpg.net mods' part and an injustice to him.

Well, there was also that T-Shirt guy too, I forget his name, the crooked fucker.  Showed up here after he got banned from there, threatened to sue the both of our sites because everyone was mean to him.

I've never been there, nor shall I ever go there, but one of my friends reported to me that he got banned when McClellan (McClennan?) and his "posse" started jumping on this guy for just expressing something about vampires--and it turned into a shitpile.

He posted something like, "Isn't is a violation of the rules for all of you to jump on him and make personal attacks?"

He was banned for something about a "group attack" for using the term "all of you"....

...by Darthy (butterass) McClellan -- who started the shitfest to begin with.  

The guy is a waste of skin, a waste of air and a waste of 200 chicken mcnuggets at every lunch...

Quote from: Vellorian;400020Didn't the-site-that-shall-not-be-named face a defamation lawsuit due to McClennan?

Voldemort.com?

Just call it rpg.net already. We're grownups here.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;400023No, just the threat of one. Koltar is banned for making a joke about it, which as much as he and I don't get along, I will admit is an overreaction on the rpg.net mods' part and an injustice to him.

Nah, we get along better than you might think  - but you are right, I DO often disagree with you.

The Big Purple really doesn't have any sense of humor about itself.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Vellorian;400027I've never been there, nor shall I ever go there, but one of my friends reported to me that he got banned when McClellan (McClennan?)

It's Maclennan.


See: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=529887

Quote from: Koltar;400070Nah, we get along better than you might think  - but you are right, I DO often disagree with you.

It's times like this when I am not sure if Ed is a brilliant satirist, or fortune really does just favour the foolish.

Quote from: StormBringer;400111It's times like this when I am not sure if Ed is a brilliant satirist, or fortune really does just favour the foolish.

"Aux innocents les mains pleines."
Roughly... "To innocents the hands full."

:D

Quote from: J Arcane;400025Well, there was also that T-Shirt guy too, I forget his name, the crooked fucker.  Showed up here after he got banned from there, threatened to sue the both of our sites because everyone was mean to him.

T-shirtfuckerwhatnow?!? I generally catch most of the villain references, but this one I've never heard of. Could someone get me up to date on this one?

T-shirt guy?  Man, what was his name?  Ken something or another.

Used to work for TSR's GenCon division, published the Wizards rpg and Extreme Vengeance, major player in Imperium Games / T4, republished Dark Conspiracy, had a POD business that fell apart, and then the T-shirt thing.

That's the right guy, isn't it, what was his name again.

If you can't remember their name does that make them a better or worse villain?

Ken Whitman maybe?

Ken Whiting?

Nah, I think it was Whitman. He even managed to get an ad for his T-shirt business into the last or 2nd-to-last issue of COMICS & GAMES RETAILER magazine.


- Ed C.

Mr. Whitman fucked up Imperium Games and thus Marc Miller's Traveller IIRC.

That's it Ken Whitman!

Actually he left Imperium Games shortly after the core book for T4 came out.  I'm sure the people who remained fired off all the blame in his direction but frankly things got even worse after he left.

I suspect he's more like WEG's Eric/Helsreach fellow.  A sad sack who's been the butt end of a lot of failures.

As long we are singling out some rpg.net mods for mockery and derision, Let's not forget Curt. There was a guy with some issues who had no business having even the insignificant authority of a forum moderator.

Of course the villainy of the rpg.net mods doesn't compare to Lorraine Williams but they do, as a whole, suck. Just goes to show how even a petty amount of power can corrupt.

Quote from: SgtSpaceWizard;400220Of course the villainy of the rpg.net mods doesn't compare to Lorraine Williams but they do, as a whole, suck. Just goes to show how even a petty amount of power can corrupt.

The people are so vicious because the stakes are so small.  :)

Quote from: StormBringer;400224The people are so vicious because the stakes are so small.  :)

The battles are so vicious in academia, because the stakes are so small.

More generally, this seems to be the case in just about any highly specialized niche which is far enough removed from the real world.

For example, try attending a conference in a highly specialized area of mathematics, and see the feathers being ruffled and flying around.

Quote from: ggroy;400232The battles are so vicious in academia, because the stakes are so small.

More generally, this seems to be the case in just about any highly specialized niche which is far enough removed from the real world.

For example, try attending a conference in a highly specialized area of mathematics, and see the feathers being ruffled and flying around.

Exactly.

Quote from: StormBringer;400236Exactly.

Arguing about tabletop rpg mechanics or D&D tropes, isn't much different than arguing about theoretical universe expansion models (in astrophysics) or arguing about philosophy at a coffee house in Vienna or Paris.

None have any final definitive answers.

Curt probably did as much harm as Darren but he was pretty balanced as a mod at first until someone needled him into a frenzy.

But I still think Darren holds the bag because he set the tone.  For years he was the rudest, nastiest, most aggressive poster around and then for years he was the rudest, nastiest, most aggressive mod around.

Curt, Blackberry, heck even Kuma were all just symptoms of the administrative problems.

Quote from: ggroy;400239Arguing about tabletop rpg mechanics or D&D tropes, isn't much different than arguing about theoretical universe expansion models (in astrophysics) or arguing about philosophy at a coffee house in Vienna or Paris.

None have any final definitive answers.

Properly executed, however, they each have boundless capacity to expand the knowledge or application of a subject.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;399565More recent products like Exalted 2nd Edition, ICONS, and the all-but end of their print runs have proven to me that WW's business model is way off as a publisher.

Interesting discussion, but you threw me off here - ICONS is a tiny FATE-like Superhero RPG produced by Adamant Entertainment - what's that got to do with White Wolf?

Maybe you meant a different game?

Having read a review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14930.phtml) posted on rpg.net, i'm tempted to nominate ffg for villain status. Again they manage to fuck up 40k. I have a lot of time for them in most other areas; the books look stunning. But to not include - again - vital background information on antagonists is bloody ridiculous. Deathwatch gets chaos space marines, tyrannids and tau - but you can be sure they will get the same short shrift orks kroot and eldar get in RT. This is just ridiculous. They've had enough time now to get out a proper sourcebook for antagonists/xenos in lieu of anything else and still they fuck it up. I also don't think that book size is any excuse either. Their interpreation of the 40k universe has just been, well, chaotic. Badly organised.

FFG also messed up Mutant Chronicles.  I sure hope it was because the rights for Siege At The Citadel were held by Pressman and not because they were too dumb to see that a new edition with new figures was the way to go.

I think FFG gets their boardgame market fairly well but really doesn't get the rpg market which is why they've never gotten very far with their own rpg lines.

I'm not sure what FFG's design goals are with 40k. I doubt it's a licensing thing; they just suck at portioning out information. Can anyone confirm the level of detail the antagonists in Deathwatch go into? Is it one chaos space marine, one tau fire warrior, one tyrannid, like with Rogue Trader - 1 of each race (eldar corsair, for instance)?

Hopefully with the three corebooks out the gate, they can focus their efforts on releasing a better, cross-game monster book, and more overall sourcebook support.  

Still, that review more or less gives me what I already knew:  Shortage of monsters or not, I want that book.  Oh yes.

Speaking of the modstapo on the unnameable site, is it just me or are they getting to be more and more like eric cartman?

Now they're handing out suspensions for "rule 10" which demands that any disagreement with the mods be made in POLITE and RESPECTFUL terms.

So, darren maclennan calls you some name and snarkily hands you a suspension that wasn't warranted, and you're supposed to be polite and respectful in disagreeing with it?

"RESPECT MAH AH-THORITAAAH!"

Quote from: Cylonophile;400788Speaking of the modstapo on the unnameable site, is it just me or are they getting to be more and more like eric cartman?

Now they're handing out suspensions for "rule 10" which demands that any disagreement with the mods be made in POLITE and RESPECTFUL terms.

So, darren maclennan calls you some name and snarkily hands you a suspension that wasn't warranted, and you're supposed to be polite and respectful in disagreeing with it?

"RESPECT MAH AH-THORITAAAH!"

That was the biggest problem I had with that site: the way their stupid rules made you feel you were permanently walking on eggshells. Fragile egos make for pathetic moderation. It's so easy, especially online, to gang up on another using their 'criticism' of a mod decision to call them difficult, antagonistic or belligerent, etc. This is a form of bullying IMO and i've said as such (you can imagine the response). I find bullying a most odious behaviour, especially when it coems from people who claim to be smart.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;400687Having read a review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14930.phtml) posted on rpg.net, i'm tempted to nominate ffg for villain status. Again they manage to fuck up 40k. I have a lot of time for them in most other areas; the books look stunning. But to not include - again - vital background information on antagonists is bloody ridiculous. Deathwatch gets chaos space marines, tyrannids and tau - but you can be sure they will get the same short shrift orks kroot and eldar get in RT. This is just ridiculous. They've had enough time now to get out a proper sourcebook for antagonists/xenos in lieu of anything else and still they fuck it up. I also don't think that book size is any excuse either. Their interpreation of the 40k universe has just been, well, chaotic. Badly organised.

I'm not sure that I accept that mishandling a property really makes you a Villain.  They're not publishing the books you'd like - that's annoying, but Villainous?  In another 3-5 years or so someone else will probably be publishing the game in a slightly different edition and publishing new books for it anyway.

I would like to nominate Jonathan P. Nolan and Pisces All Media for what they did to the Australian portion of the RPG Industry.

Craig J. Brain

Quote from: jcfiala;400832I'm not sure that I accept that mishandling a property really makes you a Villain.  They're not publishing the books you'd like - that's annoying, but Villainous?  In another 3-5 years or so someone else will probably be publishing the game in a slightly different edition and publishing new books for it anyway.

It's all opinion. But I just fail to comprehend FFG's planning on this. It's not as if the IP and the subject matter are themselves down to personal interpretation and ill defined - we all know how eldar/tau/etc work. I can't understand why at this point there is next to nothing for the other races. One Eldar corsair? Seriously, wtf!

Quote from: test0024565;401121How about the bastich who ripped off catalyst games, putting battletech and shadowrun in jeopardy, along with eclipse phase?

I think he's be mentioned a couple of times, but dude, why a total word-for-word echo of post 4 in this very same thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=398504&postcount=4)? is that you, Cylon?

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;401141I think he's be mentioned a couple of times, but dude, why a total word-for-word echo of post 4 in this very same thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=398504&postcount=4)? is that you, Cylon?

It's a spambot.

Quote from: J Arcane;401143It's a spambot.

Aw, sorry - didn't see the signature of mr. numbers there.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;401145Aw, sorry - didn't see the signature of mr. numbers there.

I reported it to a mod hours ago.

Quote from: Cylonophile;401147I reported it to a mod hours ago.

I have to sleep sometimes. Sorting a couple out now.

Quote from: One Horse Town;401152I have to sleep sometimes. Sorting a couple out now.

I wasn't bitching at you, I was letting the guy who may or may not have implied I was responsible for quoting my own post that I'd seen it and reported it, so no it wasn't me.

I don't know what is worse at times.... the attitude of some  of the RPGnet moderators or the gleeful little suck ups that praise their every decision and gaggle like geese whenever someone gets the ban hammer.

But villains? No.

Quote from: PaladinCA;401431I don't know what is worse at times.... the attitude of some  of the RPGnet moderators or the gleeful little suck ups that praise their every decision and gaggle like geese whenever someone gets the ban hammer.

But villains? No.

The mods are like jabba the hutt, the suckups are like that obnoxious little bird like prick that sat on his shoulder and laughed at the victims jabba condemned.

Quote from: Cylonophile;401435The mods are like jabba the hutt, the suckups are like that obnoxious little bird like prick that sat on his shoulder and laughed at the victims jabba condemned.

Yeah, but again, hardly the biggest villains of the industry, just like Jabba wasn't the worst baddie of the Galaxy? I mean, no one forcing you to go there and read the posts, and you can even read and post there without checking out TT, right? It's seems a bit masochistic the way some people can't stay away from a place that they really dislike, and compared to people who cheated a lotta gamers or ran rpg companies into the ground, it doesn't seem that villainous to me.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;401439Yeah, but again, hardly the biggest villains of the industry, just like Jabba wasn't the worst baddie of the Galaxy? I mean, no one forcing you to go there and read the posts, and you can even read and post there without checking out TT, right? It's seems a bit masochistic the way some people can't stay away from a place that they really dislike, and compared to people who cheated a lotta gamers or ran rpg companies into the ground, it doesn't seem that villainous to me.

Well, admittedly the fact that they're some of the biggest assholes connected to the game industry (Especially you, Maclennan) may not make them some of the biggest villains in it, but then again the fact that they tend to let their presonal preferences in games affect how games can be discussed on the purple sewer can adversely affect the sales of a good, deserving game that some member of the modstapo doesn't like while promoting the sales of a bad game the modstapo likes.

Now that qualifies them for at least minor villain status.

Pundit

You keep saying "White Wolf almost killed the industry", but you keep providing nothing but your own anecdotes and "numbers" you pull out of your ass.  You hated it, you hated a lot of people playing it, but that's not "proof".

I played a lot of games, but I disliked AD&D.  I played it because my friends did, and I had fun with it, but I hated the system, and when we were looking to start a new game, I always pushed for Cyberpunk, or TMNT, or Marvel FASERIP, or Star Wars, or anything else.  Internal group drama (the DM sleeping with my girlfriend - he later married her, which at least made me feel better that he wasn't flushing our long friendship down the toilet over a fling) made me leave the group.

Round that time, I discovered White Wolf.  It was different, it wasn't AD&D and it seemed cool and edgy.  I loved it.  But here's the thing - we always played other stuff.

There were MANY reasons why the games industry hit a nosedive at that time.  White Wolf stepped in and filled a void that TSR was quickly vacating.  For every person who played WW and nothing else, for every person who left gaming because they were annoyed with pretentious goths in their city, there are MANY more, like me, who simply latched onto WW when the gaming industry as a whole was on the way down, and played the guts out of it, AND RETURNED to other games as the industry ramped up again.  I will guarantee you that.  I have met, and spoken to, FAR more people who enjoy WW as ONE of their many gaming options than who only run it, or who feel as you do.

I play 3.5, I am currently running Werewolf the Apocalypse, I play ANYTHING other than AD&D and most indie games and shit like FATAL.  I'd give RC D&D a whirl sometime, just for shits.  

See, I can do anecdotal evidence as proof too!  But I am positive my anecdotal evidence is closer to the truth than yours.

Many companies hit the skids chasing the WW market.  many more companies hit the skids chasing the 3ed/3.5 market.  I once tried to game with some annoyingly pretentious goths who only games Vampire.  It was painful, so I stopped.  Even a small city like Halifax has a diverse enough gaming community so that I didn't have to get stuck with them.

Biggest VILLAINS, not most annoying players?

Certainly most have been mentioned - Lorraine Williams and the rest of late model TSR who screwed fans around, Siembeda for fucking his fans around, the cockbags who wrote FATAL and RaHoWa and any other shit racist/hate game so they could get their premature jollies off.

There aren't many TRUE villains.  A lot of selfish, petty douchebags, yeah, but noone I'd label as actively evil.

I mean, Hitler had a D&D homebrew he tried to peddle, but noone wanted it, and it didn't sell.  He was too early for direct sales PDF market, but rumor has it even the SS hated playing it, when they were forced to playtest it.  All his adventures were railroaded heartbreakers too.  And don't get me started on the Mary Sues and metaplot!  Every adventure, Adolfft Do'Hittler'r comes in with his double uzis and kills all the bad guys before the party has a chance to do anything, and Elhimmlerster shows up all the time to berate the party for not hating Jews enough, and then solves all the problems and goes off to bang the goddess of Aryan Magic while the party has to watch...

But that was hardly part of the INDUSTRY, since he never sold any of it, and noone would touch it.  Wonky mechanics, you see.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;401464See, I can do anecdotal evidence as proof too!  But I am positive my anecdotal evidence is closer to the truth than yours.

Yeah, White Wolf games were just games that people played in addition to all the others (including AD&D), in my experience. I never met anybody who exclusively played White Wolf and I had a pretty large player base. Back in the day, it was Magic; The Gathering that got all the blame. While it probably had a big impact on retailers, just about every gamer I knew played Magic and RPGs.

Quote from: Cylonophile;401435The mods are like jabba the hutt, the suckups are like that obnoxious little bird like prick that sat on his shoulder and laughed at the victims jabba condemned.

Salacious Crumb.

Why the hell do I know that? :D

My vote is for Gary Jackson!!  ;)


eh -- the biggest villian was the guy who worked in the mail room at TSR in the 80's. He was screening/blocking my letters to Gygax. I'm sure of it. ;)

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;401538Yeah, White Wolf games were just games that people played in addition to all the others (including AD&D), in my experience. I never met anybody who exclusively played White Wolf and I had a pretty large player base. Back in the day, it was Magic; The Gathering that got all the blame. While it probably had a big impact on retailers, just about every gamer I knew played Magic and RPGs.

Back in the mid-1990s, I almost exclusively played/ran WoD games.
That was the case of a lot of gamers in my Eastern French area as well. WoD games were extremely popular back then.

Quote from: Benoist;401568Back in the mid-1990s, I almost exclusively played/ran WoD games.
That was the case of a lot of gamers in my Eastern French area as well. WoD games were extremely popular back then.

Oh, they were popular and everybody had their favorite. Some liked Vampire, others liked Wraith (though nobody played it as far as I knew), the girls liked Changeling and so on. Changeling is the only one I ever owned. My little sister has my books now. There were always other games going on too. Mostly Fasa games and AD&D.

Quote from: PaladinCA;401540Salacious Crumb.

Why the hell do I know that? :D

Because you have serious Star Wars Geek Cred.

When you can name three or more people in Jabba's entourage (other than Jabba, Boba Fett, and Lando), you're flexing your Geek-Fu.

It gets worse if you remember Salacious is a Kowakian monkey-lizard.
(seriously, what kind of f'd up obsession do I have with Star Wars, that I just KNOW this shit...?!?)

I would never put the WW games/WOD as villains. Despite their pretentiousness (which is actually part of the charm, and its good they took their ideas seriously otherwise it would have been a joke), and despite the trenchcoat clove smokers it did a lot, IMO/E for the gaming industry. Certainly the gaming world. I think part of it was a zeitgeist thing; something we don't have right now in gaming.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;401467Elhimmlerster

:rotfl:

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;401538Yeah, White Wolf games were just games that people played in addition to all the others (including AD&D), in my experience. I never met anybody who exclusively played White Wolf and I had a pretty large player base. Back in the day, it was Magic; The Gathering that got all the blame. While it probably had a big impact on retailers, just about every gamer I knew played Magic and RPGs.

This mirrors my experience in the 90s down here. CCGs, more than WW, were perceived as "The Enemy" that was "killing RPGs" (with people abandoning RPGs in droves in favor of collecting and playing M:tG).

Quote from: PaladinCA;401540Salacious Crumb.

The sort of name you'd expect from an old TSR module NPC. :D

Quote from: JollyRB;401567My vote is for Gary Jackson!!  ;)

It's shaping up to look like his return isn't all that much of a positive, huh? That was a nice bit of a twist, or at least the foreshadowing of a twist.

Quote from: Benoist;401568Back in the mid-1990s, I almost exclusively played/ran WoD games.
That was the case of a lot of gamers in my Eastern French area as well. WoD games were extremely popular back then.

I would say this isn't uncommon.  Pundit has the grain of truth regarding White Wolf games.  They were clearly a reaction to the fantasy genre; as such, many, many people played them exclusively.  The common theme seemed to be that AD&D and its ilk were for the kids, the World of Darkness was for adults.

The truth is, of course, that White Wolf games were for angsty middle-class goth/emo poseur kids that wrote bad poetry and pretended to like Joy Division.  :)

My only memory of WW in the 90's, is it was the game girls were actually willing to play, and most of them made a point to show off their boobs.

That one thing makes me willing to forgive a lot of the douche-ry that a lot of male WW players presented.

(and hell, Anne Rice novels were more the cause, than the WW books.)

The girls in my circle of 90s gamers were hooked by Shadowrun and Ars Magica. WW was what kept them in the hobby. That and Castle Falkenstein.

*nod* I actually made out with a chick I didn't know like this during a WoD session I ran in the 90s.

Quote from: Benoist;401812*nod* I actually made out with a chick I didn't know like this during a WoD session I ran in the 90s.

Heh, it was Magic; The Gathering for me. ;)

"Wanna come over to my house and play some Magic? Oh, and my mom's not home either."

Ok!

You know that Ed's nostrils are flaring right now, don't you?

Quote from: One Horse Town;401817You know that Ed's nostrils are flaring right now, don't you?

Damn it. Gotta watch my mouth even here.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;401538Yeah, White Wolf games were just games that people played in addition to all the others (including AD&D), in my experience. I never met anybody who exclusively played White Wolf and I had a pretty large player base. Back in the day, it was Magic; The Gathering that got all the blame. While it probably had a big impact on retailers, just about every gamer I knew played Magic and RPGs.

My experience. When Vampire appeared in my neck of the woods, we (my friends and me) fell in love with it and we played it a lot, and other White Wolf games. We eventually grew disenchanted with it, and we went back to other games. I never got why they were called Storytelling Games, they were Roleplaying Games just like the rest, and in my book that was a good thing.

As I said, I grew disenchanted with OWOD, but I'd happily the NWOD Vampire. Maybe some day...

Magic the Gathering is a different animal, among other reasons because it is not an RPG. In my group it was a fad that left a bad taste in everybody's mouth, nowadays no friend of mine plays it.

Quote from: StormBringer;401633I would say this isn't uncommon.  Pundit has the grain of truth regarding White Wolf games.  They were clearly a reaction to the fantasy genre; as such, many, many people played them exclusively.  The common theme seemed to be that AD&D and its ilk were for the kids, the World of Darkness was for adults.

I can't deny that when we played Vampire, we considered it a better game than AD&D, a typical case of "My favorite game is better than your favorite game". Nowadays we know better. I have never liked AD&D, and I don't think that will change, but let everybody play their favorite game.

QuoteThe truth is, of course, that White Wolf games were for angsty middle-class goth/emo poseur kids that wrote bad poetry and pretended to like Joy Division.  :)

What are you trying to tell us, that your favorite game is better than my favorite game?

Quote from: One Horse Town;401817You know that Ed's nostrils are flaring right now, don't you?

Mine certainly are flaring!! :D

Quote from: One Horse Town;401817You know that Ed's nostrils are flaring right now, don't you?

Why would that be?

 You know if you want me to give up a suposed cliche or meme - it woulds be nice if others did that as well.


- Ed C.

Quote from: One Horse Town;401817You know that Ed's nostrils are flaring right now, don't you?

How can you tell, behind all that beard?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;401845How can you tell, behind all that beard?

Listen for the grunting, snorting sound his breathing would make, or look for phlegm being blasted out of his snout. ;)

I'm going to add my voice to people who say WW was not a villain.

Actually, I think people tend to forget how cool WW was at the time compared to other games - due in no small part to their high production values, attempts to address an adult audience (even if they tended to attract the goth teen crowd), and just the sheer interesting part of doing something new and different.  Plus, they really tied into the whole Anne Rice popularity wave.

To really appreciate WW, you have to see how cheap looking a lot of the other companies were in those days, how "for kids" a lot of the games were in tone (especially AD&D), and how stagnant the whole thing was becoming.  WW's early success mirrors Image comics early success - people wanted something flashier and new at the time.

These kind of artistic movements, whether or not you like them, do occur from time to time and are probably a necessary evil to avoid market stagnation.

I don't see that there was a stagnation at that time in either production or innovation.

The quality of products coming out like Shadowrun, RIFTS, or the GURPS stuff of the day, to give just a few examples, is pretty much proof that the whole "WW was a new wave in quality" stuff is bullshit.

WW was a new wave in making stuff look faux-artsy, and in speaking pretentious drivel. If you interpret those two things to mean "more mature adult" then I guess you'd feel that way about WW's products, but you'd probably also be about 17 years old, at least mentally.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;402209WW was a new wave in making stuff look faux-artsy, and in speaking pretentious drivel. If you interpret those two things to mean "more mature adult" then I guess you'd feel that way about WW's products, but you'd probably also be about 17 years old, at least mentally.

15, actually. :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;402209WW was a new wave in making stuff look faux-artsy, and in speaking pretentious drivel. If you interpret those two things to mean "more mature adult" then I guess you'd feel that way about WW's products, but you'd probably also be about 17 years old, at least mentally.

RPGPundit

You're just bitter because WW didn't get you tail.

Quote from: RPGPundit;402209I don't see that there was a stagnation at that time in either production or innovation.

The quality of products coming out like Shadowrun, RIFTS, or the GURPS stuff of the day, to give just a few examples, is pretty much proof that the whole "WW was a new wave in quality" stuff is bullshit.

WW was a new wave in making stuff look faux-artsy, and in speaking pretentious drivel. If you interpret those two things to mean "more mature adult" then I guess you'd feel that way about WW's products, but you'd probably also be about 17 years old, at least mentally.

RPGPundit

They, especially Werewolf,  let me rip shit up in-game in a way no other game allowed before.  That was all the fucking cool I needed.  

They were, to me at the time, a unique and different system that allowed me to play different games than the other games of the time.  They fired my imagination in ways the other games of the day didn't.  Over time, I drifted back to other games, but kept WoD games in my back pocket as yet another option in the endless options of games to run.  At the time, the games felt new and fresh and liberating.  I later took some of the tools I gained from playing WW into other games, and it really helped me focus on the character, and not the stats.  Some of the questions for fleshing out your characters motivations and background from the oWoD character gen section I still use when I am creating characters for other games.

Pundit will take this to mean I play all my characters as Louis Von Lestat, king of the ruffled shirts and tortured prose, but that's ok.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;402242You're just bitter because WW didn't get you tail.

*dies*

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;402291They, especially Werewolf,  let me rip shit up in-game in a way no other game allowed before.  That was all the fucking cool I needed.  

I believe our go to strategy was "I twist his head off".  :)

QuoteI later took some of the tools I gained from playing WW into other games, and it really helped me focus on the character, and not the stats.  Some of the questions for fleshing out your characters motivations and background from the oWoD character gen section I still use when I am creating characters for other games.

A very good point.  While WW didn't seem to take any particular pains to avoid the ad/disad problem of the blind, quadriplegic, deaf, everything-phobic character that racked up about six and a half million character points for working in every disad across five supplements,  they were still part of a robust system of character creation.

QuotePundit will take this to mean I play all my characters as Louis Von Lestat, king of the ruffled shirts and tortured prose, but that's ok.

Wait, I thought you were the king of ruffled shirts and tortured prose.  :)

Quote from: StormBringer;402310A very good point.  While WW didn't seem to take any particular pains to avoid the ad/disad problem of the blind, quadriplegic, deaf, everything-phobic character that racked up about six and a half million character points for working in every disad across five supplements,  they were still part of a robust system of character creation.

Well you could only take 7 points of Flaws max though. Not like zillions and zillions of them. Quadraplegic was like 5 or 6 points, for reference, Dark Fate (which basically gave the GM carte blanche to make your  PC's life miserable) was like 5 points, and so on. So it wasn't piling up too much.

Quote from: Benoist;402312Well you could only take 7 points of Flaws max though. Not like zillions and zillions of them. Quadraplegic was like 5 or 6 points, for reference, Dark Fate (which basically gave the GM carte blanche to make your  PC's life miserable) was like 5 points, and so on. So it wasn't piling up too much.

Assuming the GM enforced the limit and the Dark Fate.

Still, if you could get a few minor flaws that added up to the max, would those really offset 7 additional points of Celerity?  Or Vicissitude?  That last one would pretty much clear up any problems with non-functional limbs.

It is a good system, it's just one that is very difficult to execute without fairly obvious loopholes.  The nature of the beast, as it were.

Quote from: StormBringer;402317Assuming the GM enforced the limit and the Dark Fate.

Well, I have never ever seen any GM ever allowing more than 7 points of Flaws and if we had at the time? We would have laughed our asses off at his stupidity, to be honest. It's like ASKING for the most gonzo characters you can get. LOL

Quote from: StormBringer;402310I believe our go to strategy was "I twist his head off".  :)

I still love my old ST.  When Werewolf characters got too overconfident or uber-violent, he had an encounter with "Lesson Bear", a Gurhal with a skull and crossbones on his chest, that would come along and kick 99 flavors of hell amongst the party.  The lesson:  All Gaia's Children have a place in the choir.

QuoteA very good point.  While WW didn't seem to take any particular pains to avoid the ad/disad problem of the blind, quadriplegic, deaf, everything-phobic character that racked up about six and a half million character points for working in every disad across five supplements,  they were still part of a robust system of character creation.

Oh man, a guy I used to (note the emphasis) who was a massive WoD fan HATES 4ed because he can't intentionally gimp his character, or it's really hard to.  He'd make a STR1, STA1 Toreador or Malkavian, and take every physical flaw, or make a low strength/HP fighter or a INT 6 Wizard in 3.5/3ed.  As I said...USED to.

QuoteWait, I thought you were the king of ruffled shirts and tortured prose.  :)

Only on fanfic.net.  :)

Quote from: Benoist;402318Well, I have never ever seen any GM ever allowing more than 7 points of Flaws and if we had at the time? We would have laughed our asses off at his stupidity, to be honest. It's like ASKING for the most gonzo characters you can get. LOL

I used to relax the rules at Cons just to see the stupid I would get.  Oh man, gonzo doesn't begin to cover it.

Afterwards, I was always thankful they wrote that limit...

Quote from: RPGPundit;402209I don't see that there was a stagnation at that time in either production or innovation.

The quality of products coming out like Shadowrun, RIFTS, or the GURPS stuff of the day, to give just a few examples, is pretty much proof that the whole "WW was a new wave in quality" stuff is bullshit.

WW was a new wave in making stuff look faux-artsy, and in speaking pretentious drivel. If you interpret those two things to mean "more mature adult" then I guess you'd feel that way about WW's products, but you'd probably also be about 17 years old, at least mentally.

RPGPundit

WW products had better art and graphic design than many/most of the competition at the time. I may be misremembering but wasn't Vampire 1e pretty much all Tim Bradstreet art? Gave it a nice consistent look at a tine when most of the competition were happy to alternate high-quality full colour illustrations with tatty line drawings drawn by the editor's kids (WEG were terrible for this outside of their licensed games, and I have dim memories of bad blue line art In AD&D 2e as well).

Quote from: Benoist;402318Well, I have never ever seen any GM ever allowing more than 7 points of Flaws and if we had at the time? We would have laughed our asses off at his stupidity, to be honest. It's like ASKING for the most gonzo characters you can get. LOL

Obviously, but I am pretty sure neither of us has seen a DM that allowed a character to kill Thor with a push spell from a high wall, either.  ;)

Quote from: StormBringer;402358Obviously, but I am pretty sure neither of us has seen a DM that allowed a character to kill Thor with a push spell from a high wall, either.  ;)

Thankfully not. ;)

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;402330I still love my old ST.  When Werewolf characters got too overconfident or uber-violent, he had an encounter with "Lesson Bear", a Gurhal with a skull and crossbones on his chest, that would come along and kick 99 flavors of hell amongst the party.  The lesson:  All Gaia's Children have a place in the choir.

That is awesome.

QuoteOh man, a guy I used to (note the emphasis) who was a massive WoD fan HATES 4ed because he can't intentionally gimp his character, or it's really hard to.  He'd make a STR1, STA1 Toreador or Malkavian, and take every physical flaw, or make a low strength/HP fighter or a INT 6 Wizard in 3.5/3ed.  As I said...USED to.

Lame.  It's one thing to make the best of a bad situation, but Munchausen-by-proxy with your D&D character?  LAME.

QuoteOnly on fanfic.net.  :)

I thought I recognized you!   Errr...  I mean, I would have, if I were to visit places like that.  :)

Quote from: Grymbok;402345WW products had better art and graphic design than many/most of the competition at the time. I may be misremembering but wasn't Vampire 1e pretty much all Tim Bradstreet art? Gave it a nice consistent look at a tine when most of the competition were happy to alternate high-quality full colour illustrations with tatty line drawings drawn by the editor's kids (WEG were terrible for this outside of their licensed games, and I have dim memories of bad blue line art In AD&D 2e as well).

The Art in Palladium books had been consistently high quality for at least something like 5 years before Vampire ever came along.

Or are you discounting that because its not "mature" because no one is wearing black in it and there are no men with eyeliner?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;402445The Art in Palladium books had been consistently high quality for at least something like 5 years before Vampire ever came along.

Or are you discounting that because its not "mature" because no one is wearing black in it and there are no men with eyeliner?

OK, how about general layout?  Surely you don't believe Palladium books are a shining example of great layout?

They have gotten a bit better over the years, but the older books were a mess.

Quote from: RPGPundit;402445The Art in Palladium books had been consistently high quality for at least something like 5 years before Vampire ever came along.

Or are you discounting that because its not "mature" because no one is wearing black in it and there are no men with eyeliner?

RPGPundit

...what?

Palladium art was alright.  Art in (some) White Wolf books was outstanding, detailed.  The bets art in Palladium books was stuff yanked from Eastman/Laird comics in TMNT.  It got better, and some of the RIFTS art is good.  But yikes, saying Palladium art is better than WW?  That PROVES how biased you are.  :)

Jgants is 100% right.  For every "page XX" problem WW has, layout in 99% of Palladium books is downright abominable.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;402467...what?

Palladium art was alright.  Art in (some) White Wolf books was outstanding, detailed.  The bets art in Palladium books was stuff yanked from Eastman/Laird comics in TMNT.  It got better, and some of the RIFTS art is good.  But yikes, saying Palladium art is better than WW?  That PROVES how biased you are.  :)

Then I'm biased the same way.

Don't get me wrong, lots of art in WW's products was good, but a lot of it was "a whole lot of black" too. I know someone more versed in art styles will probably be able to give it a name, but WW's art seemed to start with black paper, and white ink put to it...

Which makes it evocative and different, but not necessarily GOOD.

I think Palladium's art was 'better' for Palladium's games... their rules were for BIG bright comic book-type action.
Put WW style chiaroscuro (http://www.therpgsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=402504) stuff in there and it doesn't feel like it matches the intent.
WOD books would feel a whole lot different with Palladium artists doing the illos.

I think the art in some of the GW publications of the 80's was pretty professional, and not just the box/cover art. I'm thinking of both Warhammer FRP and more significantly, Elric 3e. But my memory isn't very good on either.

What about WEG (not just Star Wars, but Torg)...? And of course, Jorune and Talislanta.

I think a lot of people who say that X was a major innovator (for a given value of X, and a number of innovations) often were just not aware of much outside of TSR/D&D at the time X appeared. But even suppose we grant that WW's art & layout were innovative, the overall style hasn't been progress AFAIAC. I like books that are physically easy to handle and reference; glossy pages and distracting artwork interwoven or sub-posed beneath the text don't contribute to that. (It's something that really turns me off about D&D 3e+.)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;402521I think the art in some of the GW publications of the 80's was pretty professional, and not just the box/cover art. I'm thinking of both Warhammer FRP and more significantly, Elric 3e. But my memory isn't very good on either.

What about WEG (not just Star Wars, but Torg)...? And of course, Jorune and Talislanta.

I think a lot of people who say that X was a major innovator (for a given value of X, and a number of innovations) often were just not aware of much outside of TSR/D&D at the time X appeared. But even suppose we grant that WW's art & layout were innovative, the overall style hasn't been progress AFAIAC. I like books that are physically easy to handle and reference; glossy pages and distracting artwork interwoven or sub-posed beneath the text don't contribute to that. (It's something that really turns me off about D&D 3e+.)

TORG was one of the examples I had in mind of a game which mixed good cover art and weak interiors, actually. Shatterzone was even worse though.

I'll grant that Palladium had high quality and consistent art in a lot of their books. Agreed on WFRP too.

On reflection then it's more the design elements of early WW that would have really stood out. Their graphic heavy page design is often (and justifiably) mocked, but it was very different to other games. The understated covers, too, made the games stand out.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;402467...what?

Palladium art was alright.  Art in (some) White Wolf books was outstanding, detailed.  The bets art in Palladium books was stuff yanked from Eastman/Laird comics in TMNT.  It got better, and some of the RIFTS art is good.  But yikes, saying Palladium art is better than WW?  That PROVES how biased you are.  :)

Jgants is 100% right.  For every "page XX" problem WW has, layout in 99% of Palladium books is downright abominable.

Well I don't share Pundits hate of all things WW but there is no way the best art in Palladium was yanked from Eastman/Laird comics.

Rifts launched with a Keith Parkinson cover and he did several other covers and internal pieces for it. If you think Eastman/Laird was better than Parkinson, well you're nuts :p. The layout however does leave much to be desired.

The biggest contribution WW made IMO was to production values not art. It seemed the era of big glossy books started with WW and I wouldn't even say that's an entirely good thing.

Art in Vampire is full of "girlie-men" and "mascu-chicks".  I find none of it appealing.

The art style is a little better (which is highly subjective)--but the subject and content of Vampire artwork... well ... sucks. :D

WW is still no villain in spite of Pundy having a big stick up his butt about them.

Some people played it, but in my experience D&D has always been the high lord and master of RPGs in spite of even the best (Moldvay/Cook-Mentzer-Cyclopedia Basic) version being a C- game if not lower.

And most people won't play any other goddamned thing EVER.

So accusing White Wolf of doing harm to the hobby in that way is kind of bugfuck STUPID because D&D has done it and probably always will.

And as others have mentioned Magic the Gathering was FAR more brutal on taking people out of RPGs and removing gamespace as the players filled up and hogged tables.

Course if you look deeper, getting any RPG going even the only one most people play is a bitch anyhow so a pickup casual game like Magic with its tourney support and ways of getting people to continually buy new product with limited retailer risk were destined to take space away anyhow.

Finding people willing to play Call of Cthulhu has proven nearly impossible for me, forget about any sort of long campaign.

Showing up with a couple decks of Magic and a 40K army are far more likely to get me some sort of game even if schedules don't allow for consistent week to week play.

I think this took a LOT of potential RPG players out of the hobby entirely.  Hell, I am close to just giving up on them.  Can't find anyone willing to play anything other than in print D&D and the only non D&D games I have found are weekend only games I am not getting 3 hours of sleep to go to then going back to work for.  (Especially not White Wolf LARPs where apparently everyone's character motivation is "Dickhead".  I was passive aggressively mocked for playing a "White Hat".  Apparently I am one of the few gamers who wants to play a hero...)

Really the 2 biggest villains in RPGs are REALITIES OF TIME AND SCHEDULING, and the playerbase being a bunch of Asperger's sufferers.

Even shitheads like Outlaw Press and Loren Coleman and the fat hambeast who killed TSR can't do what we gamers do ourselves...

Quote from: Vellorian;402608Art in Vampire is full of "girlie-men" and "mascu-chicks".  I find none of it appealing.

The art style is a little better (which is highly subjective)--but the subject and content of Vampire artwork... well ... sucks. :D

Good thing WW doesn't begin and end with Vampire.  And mascu-chicks?  I can think of three pictures off the top of my head, that were hardly masculine chicks.

It's all subjective.  Most of Palladium's art I know was crappy, at least the non-TMNT stuff.  RIFTS had some really good stuff.

White Wolf's stuff is way more detailed, and I feel more evocative.  Just flipped through my Vampire revised Core, Cam and Sabbat books, and I see precious few Girlie-men or mascu-chicks.  Nor "black paper with white ink.

But I prefer the art in Werewolf and Wraith anyway.

Mascu-chicks? Come on. The art of VtM was outstanding.

Oh, and for RPG artstyle?

2e Black Box Ravenloft era.  Fabian artwork and similar creepy pictures, and just damned good looking while still being easy to read and look at.  So goddamned lovely.

That stuff evoked a mood and feel for the Demiplane of Dread.

It might have still been AD&D 2e middle fantasy except with more scary monster types and some O Henry type Darklords and their situations, but the look and feel of those books set the style and you could immediately "get" what the setting was about.

Which is probably why everything since then in that setting has felt flat and improper.  The artstyle and look changed and it goes to being D&D cept with Vampires and zombies instead of 100s of foul fetid fat fucking Orcs existing entirely within the public domain. *

Man, the 3.5 Ravenloft module can eat a fat willy.

* With loving respect to HoL here!

Quote from: Captain Rufus;4026342e Black Box Ravenloft era.  Fabian artwork and similar creepy pictures, and just damned good looking while still being easy to read and look at.  So goddamned lovely.

Oh yes. the AD&D2 Ravenloft boxed set. Awesome stuff.

There's some cool stuff in 3e's White Wolf Ravenloft, but few and far between.

2ed Ravenloft art was, indeed, the shit.

Toss Dark Sun and Planescape's art on that fire too, because they were great too.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;4026442ed Ravenloft art was, indeed, the shit.

Toss Dark Sun and Planescape's art on that fire too, because they were great too.

Yeah. Planescape especially, to me (though I'd still prefer Ravenloft's). It was totally awesome.

If the planescape art was all (or mostly) DiTerlizzi then I agree. I never had any of that stuff but I saw a book or two in a used book store not long ago and it was all I could to do to stop myself picking it up just for the pictures.

I'll note that some of Bard Games' Arcanum/Atlantis trilogy (published 1984-86) was illustrated by Bill Sienkiewicz and although I'm not a huge fan of his, it's definitely quality, even in B&W.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;4026342e Black Box Ravenloft era.  Fabian artwork and similar creepy pictures, and just damned good looking while still being easy to read and look at.  So goddamned lovely.

Yeah, it's hard to find RPG art more evocative and atmospheric than Stephen Fabian's work on Ravenloft. I still have that Tarokka deck he did, which is pretty damned cool divested of its context.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;402654If the planescape art was all (or mostly) DiTerlizzi then I agree. I never had any of that stuff but I saw a book or two in a used book store not long ago and it was all I could to do to stop myself picking it up just for the pictures.

I'll note that some of Bard Games' Arcanum/Atlantis trilogy (published 1984-86) was illustrated by Bill Sienkiewicz and although I'm not a huge fan of his, it's definitely quality, even in B&W.

Yeah, Planescape was mostly DiTerlizzi. TSR in that period seemed to be using a lead artist on certain of the lines and it definitely helped set the mood. So you had Brom on Dark Sun, DiTerlizzi on Planescape, and first Fabian and then Ruppel on Ravenloft.

I assume other lines had lead artists too but those are the ones I remember off hand.

Whether or not WW truly was innovative at the time isn't important. What's important is that a lot of people thought so.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;402754Whether or not WW truly was innovative at the time isn't important. What's important is that a lot of people thought so.

Exactly.  At one point in time, a large portion of the market decided they liked it and it was what they wanted and that they were kind of bored with the old thing.  It's no different than the usual sort of cultural changes that occur over time with things like music, clothing, art, etc.

Ok, so now that we have in fact established that there was nothing really revolutionary in WW's levels of art quality (besides my own example in palladium and Shadowrun, people have pointed out WFRP1, Stormbringer, TORG, and several other examples of how art was already evolving vastly in quality before WW came along) we now have the WW-defenders stating that the REAL thing that mattered was just that people thought it was innovative, whether or not it was.

In a way, that's a good point.

The thing is, if you can't show that WW in any way really WAS innovative, from the objective sense, then that's a pretty fucking good argument for WW's villainy rather than heroism, since you're pretty much admitting that WW ended up being a painted-on facade that turned the entire gaming hobby into the direction of glossy shallowness without any real substance or adding anything really new besides pretentious attitude.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;402996Ok, so now that we have in fact established that there was nothing really revolutionary in WW's levels of art quality (besides my own example in palladium and Shadowrun, people have pointed out WFRP1, Stormbringer, TORG, and several other examples of how art was already evolving vastly in quality before WW came along) we now have the WW-defenders stating that the REAL thing that mattered was just that people thought it was innovative, whether or not it was.

In a way, that's a good point.

The thing is, if you can't show that WW in any way really WAS innovative, from the objective sense, then that's a pretty fucking good argument for WW's villainy rather than heroism, since you're pretty much admitting that WW ended up being a painted-on facade that turned the entire gaming hobby into the direction of glossy shallowness without any real substance or adding anything really new besides pretentious attitude.

RPGPundit

You know you've got something here.

One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Really, did WW ever use pics of any real gamers in real people's homes or libraries or places most gamers game? I didn't see any.

Quote from: Cylonophile;403001You know you've got something here.

One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Really, did WW ever use pics of any real gamers in real people's homes or libraries or places most gamers game? I didn't see any.

Pictures where? Where would these pictures be posted? I never seen any "real gamers" in libraries in any Wizard/TSR/Chaosium/Fasa material? And is this is a reason to quit a game; that the poster boys didn't look like you?!?

Quote from: RPGPundit;402996The thing is, if you can't show that WW in any way really WAS innovative, from the objective sense, then that's a pretty fucking good argument for WW's villainy rather than heroism, since you're pretty much admitting that WW ended up being a painted-on facade that turned the entire gaming hobby into the direction of glossy shallowness without any real substance or adding anything really new besides pretentious attitude.

WW just published stuff they hoped would sell. If anything, it would be the people who thought that it was innovative that would be the villians here.

Quote from: Cylonophile;403001You know you've got something here.

One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Really, did WW ever use pics of any real gamers in real people's homes or libraries or places most gamers game? I didn't see any.

What the hell are you talking about?

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;403006Pictures where? Where would these pictures be posted? I never seen any "real gamers" in libraries in any Wizard/TSR/Chaosium/Fasa material? And is this is a reason to quit a game; that the poster boys didn't look like you?!?

*SIGH* Another blockhead.

In some of the later WW products I got there were a lot of B&W photos of the aformentioned 20 something goth models taking the place of art.

TSR/chaosium/fase never, that I saw, did this sort of thing, their art was actual art related to the game, not pics of wanna be actors looking to pick up a few bucks.

And any reason I decide to quit a game is a fair reason reason for ME to quit it, understand?!?!?!

Quote from: Cylonophile;403069*SIGH* Another blockhead.

In some of the later WW products I got there were a lot of B&W photos of the aformentioned 20 something goth models taking the place of art.

TSR/chaosium/fase never, that I saw, did this sort of thing, their art was actual art related to the game, not pics of wanna be actors looking to pick up a few bucks.

And any reason I decide to quit a game is a fair reason reason for ME to quit it, understand?!?!?!

But it's so fucking stupid. Photos are art, am I right? I mean, you realize that none of your gaming buddies were actually vampires, right? I'm not going to quit playing Runequest because none of my friends look like ducks.

I would have kept my little story to myself is all I'm saying.

Quote from: Cylonophile;403001You know you've got something here.

One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Hilarious. In keeping with nerd speak, I think Charisma scores have more to do with this than Intelligence. I mean, Jesus, one of the reasons you quit playing White Wolf games was because they used photos of people who, because of their attractiveness, weren't required to sequester themselves in dark basements on Friday night? In a modern setting, having to do with vampires, this is a major objection? Really?

Quote from: Patrick Y.;403075Hilarious. In keeping with nerd speak, I think Charisma scores have more to do with this than Intelligence. I mean, Jesus, one of the reasons you quit playing White Wolf games was because they used photos of people who, because of their attractiveness, weren't required to sequester themselves in dark basements on Friday night? In a modern setting, having to do with vampires, this is a major objection? Really?

If you wanna see it that way, fine. I see it as a company acting like it doesn't want to acknowledge a lot of it's customers don't look like gen x fashion models and is almost pointedly ignoring them, so fuck them.

Do you have an example of the pictures you're referring to, because I was quite an avid WW consumer until... Kindred of the East, roughly, and I'm not quite sure what you're talking about?

Quote from: Benoist;403086Do you have an example of the pictures you're referring to, because I was quite an avid WW consumer until... Kindred of the East, roughly, and I'm not quite sure what you're talking about?

It's been a while, benny, but it might have been their LARP boxed set and at least one other product.

BTW, for those with their heads up their ass, the pics really were just the last straw. The whole theme of the game was getting waay to black for me. Some of the things they suggested, like having a guy with kids play himself in the game and having him kill one of his children in the game was just "MAN THIS ISN'T FUN IT'S JUST FUCKING SICK!!!!"

Quote from: Cylonophile;403080If you wanna see it that way, fine. I see it as a company acting like it doesn't want to acknowledge a lot of it's customers don't look like gen x fashion models and is almost pointedly ignoring them, so fuck them.

And here, I just quit playing Vampire because I got tired of playing vampires. It never occured to me that somebody would quit because the vampires weren't drawn from the ranks of the gothapotamus.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;403094And here, I just quit playing Vampire because I got tired of playing vampires. It never occured to me that somebody would quit because the vampires weren't drawn from the ranks of the gothapotamus.

I burnt out first because I completely disconnected from the WW products around the time of Kindred of the East, which is the first that really made me go "What the fuck is this?!" (I have to mention Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand too, which was a very cool supplement from a background standpoint, but which actually modified the whole game in undesirable ways, with hindsight), the metaplot just got so freaking bloated, and the crossovers just became ridiculous, and the supplements just started to plain suck... etc. Second, I just wanted a hiatus from my Paris by Night which had been running for eight or nine years straight, and got back into D&D after a break, straight for 3rd ed.

Quote from: Benoist;403098I burnt out first because I completely disconnected from the WW products around the time of Kindred of the East, which is the first that really made me go "What the fuck is this?!", the metaplot just got so freaking bloated, and the crossovers just became ridiculous, and the supplements just started to plain suck... etc. Second, I just wanted a hiatus from my Paris by Night which had been running for eight or nine years straight, and got back into D&D after a break, straight for 3rd ed.

I never got into all that metaplot stuff. I only ever played a couple games here and there that never really went anywhere. A lot of abortive games by first time GMs too. I did run a short Gurps Vampire campaign (strange when you think about it) and a few games of Changeling. I view Vampire the same way I view Toon. Fun for a while but nothing really to get stuck on.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;403101I never got into all that metaplot stuff. I only ever played a couple games here and there that never really went anywhere. A lot of abortive games by first time GMs too. I did run a short Gurps Vampire campaign (strange when you think about it) and a few games of Changeling. I view Vampire the same way I view Toon. Fun for a while but nothing really to get stuck on.

Alright, nothing wrong with that. How's GURPS Vampire? I was puzzled by it and almost picked it up a few times.

Quote from: Cylonophile;403093it might have been their LARP boxed set and at least one other product.

So now it's in a LARP book that the players looked too good/in sync with the game, and I'm the blockhead?

Dude, I'm fine with you not liking WW for whatever reasons you have, I'm really not a big fan of the WW games myself,  but to me nothing of what you've been saying qualifies them as villains of the industry... especially not that the people in their larp books looked too good in surroundings that looked too cool.

Quote from: Benoist;403111Alright, nothing wrong with that. How's GURPS Vampire? I was puzzled by it and almost picked it up a few times.

The details are fuzzy but I was and still am a Gurps fan. It worked fine to me and still very much played out as a VtM game.

Quote from: RPGPundit;402445The Art in Palladium books had been consistently high quality for at least something like 5 years before Vampire ever came along.

Some of the art, certainly --esp. the Parkinson stuff, and Kevin Long's illos were great for their purpose.

OTOH, as has been mentioned, the layout in Palladium's stuff was (and continues to be) contemptible and purely amateurish (in the bad sense of the word).  And for you to argue otherwise proves you know jack fuck all about layout... which actually has professional, not-entirely-subjective standards of quality of which I am aware and you, obviously, are not.

KoOS

Quote from: Cylonophile;403001One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Yes, WW concluded -- rightly -- that the vast majority of their customers were uninterested in illustrations of grossly obese, basement-dwelling shut-ins.

KoOS

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;403065WW just published stuff they hoped would sell. If anything, it would be the people who thought that it was innovative that would be the villians here.

No shit.  How did they dare to make games people liked?  What were they thinking?

Quote from: jgants;403352No shit.  How did they dare to make games people liked?  What were they thinking?

"I like money."?
(or, perhaps, I like perky goth girls? <-comic reference)

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;402694Yeah, it's hard to find RPG art more evocative and atmospheric than Stephen Fabian's work on Ravenloft. I still have that Tarokka deck he did, which is pretty damned cool divested of its context.

Everything Fabian drew is great,

Somehow or another I ended up with a spare set of those still wrapped, which I found in a box yesterday. I'm torn between opening them, or trying to find the open ones and hanging on to the wrapped ones for "emergencies." I like using Tarot cards and such for random generation sometimes. I think all forms of fortune-telling are nonsense, but since they're image based as well as numerical, the cards can jog my imagination. The Waite deck works well for gritty fantasy, the Crowley deck for Swords & Sorcery - the Fabian 'tarokka' would be good for a lot of settings other than just Hammer Horror, though, I think.

Quote from: Cylonophile;403001One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

As a 20 something Gen X goth type* with the Wisdom score too low to avoid WORKING in one of those bars, the pix reminded me uncomfortably of people who didn't tip.

Quote from: King of Old School;403263Yes, WW concluded -- rightly -- that the vast majority of their customers were uninterested in illustrations of grossly obese, basement-dwelling shut-ins.

We loyal Call of Cthulhu customers have occupied the market for that art style since the early 80's.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;403094And here, I just quit playing Vampire because I got tired of playing vampires. It never occured to me that somebody would quit because the vampires weren't drawn from the ranks of the gothapotamus.

I was all psyched to write up the Gothapotamus for D&D, but then I figured just use the Devil Swine stats, make it Undead, maybe put level drain on the bite attack if you're feeling especially mean.

* note that I omit "model."

Quote from: David Johansen;399897Don't get me wrong, Darren's moderation (heh there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one) was hilarious back when tbp was still a free and open forum for public discussion.  The problem was that for a couple years after they clamped down he was still out there being a complete dick while his victims weren't even permitted to reply in kind.  Which led to the frustration and flaming of the mod wars that went on for years.

What eventually came out of it all was the biggest independant rpg forums becoming sanitized and stale.  Try to discuss anything with the least bit of passion or deviation from the enforced politically correct ideology and you're banned.

The only time I ever got banned was for discussing D&D and its fans.  And that was for a pretty tame statement that the largest game would automatically have the most cat-piss men.

So yeah, I'd nominate Darren McLennan for one of the biggest villains.  His methods are largely responsible for the big purple toilet as it exists today.

Just speaking of RPG.net, I was 'Banned for one day' (I only ever posted there a few times) for using "Retarded" as a derogatory term. Which was not the worst of it. After asking the moderator "Really?" I was spoken to by him as if I had posted some sort of 4chan grotesque-ity (I know that's not a word) and he was some sort of machine gun -toting cop.

I simply left and did not return after that but there is still a part of me that wants to meet the RPG.net mods face to face to see how bad ass they really are.

As for my list of "villains" (in no particular order):

1) James Shipman/Outlaw Press - More evidence that America's legal system is in huge trouble.

2) TSR/Gary Gygax - (A)D&D was just plain bad game design. It is forgivable for being the original but what angers me is that they did not have to balls to evolve. The original description in Dragon Magazine for what 2nd ed. AD&D was going to be (New magic system to replace the silly 'Fire & Forget' one etc.) was a complete 180 degrees from what was published years later. Why? Because there is this common, knee-jerk reaction people have to change. TSR received a lot of mail from gamers basically saying "I became a gamer because of AD&D and never play anything else and if you change stuff I will unleash a campaign to boycott you!". A lot like the 'New Coke' fiasco (not saying New Coke was better or worse than old Coke but let's face it; if New Coke had the most universally pleasant taste ever conceived, backlash would have been exactly the same).
So TSR did the 'safe' thing in there eyes but I think this was a huge mistake. If AD&D's flaws had been fixed none of those kids would have left the game. it just would have taken them a few play sessions to see the apocalypse had not come. What TSR DID lose were people like me who found RuneQuest (3rd. ed. in particular) and other well designed systems.

3) Storyteller/Narrativist types - My issue with these guys is this repeated notion I see that rules are unimportant and the only thing that matters is 'quickness and fun!'. I always ask them why they don't save a lot of money by just joining some sort of drama club/improvisational acting troupe and quit buying 'games' with only a 'rock, paper, scissors' type 'mechanic' to even call them 'games'. The 'Games' part of 'Role Playing Games' is the most important part of the term. 'Role playing' occurs in every hobby and every type of game you can imagine. The brilliance of RPGs is the quantified mechanics that enable and promote 'role playing'.

*Puts on flame retardant suit*

I think the "Crisis of Treachery" guy deserves mention but since I don't think too highly of Palladium's system (It is far from the worst and for some games/genres it works fairly well. Such as Robotech) it is hard for me to worry too much about Palladium potentially going out of business.

I have never owned or played "Fatal" but I think that games designers get way more hatred than they deserve. Sure a lot of the options in their rules systems dealing with rape and "vaginal circumference'(Which I think were one or two pages of the 500 page rule book) and such are stupid bloat but other than that...*shrug*. They actually managed to put up a decent defense of their product in answer to the RPG.net review for which they had become infamous.

Quote from: Cole;403586I like using Tarot cards and such for random generation sometimes. I think all forms of fortune-telling are nonsense, but since they're image based as well as numerical, the cards can jog my imagination.

Saying "I think fortune telling with tarot cards is nonsense" is a bit like saying "I think the internet is worthless because its just full of cat jokes and korean dance craze videos".

Its only nonsense if you're using it wrong.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;649155Its only nonsense if you're using it wrong.

Steven: I'm a peripheral visionary.  I can see into the future, but only way off to the sides.

Fran:  Are you often right?

Steven: Sometimes.

Fran: And the other times?

Steven: I'm not right.

Fran: How is that different from guessing?

Steven: Don't mock me.

~ "Fran" and "Steven", _Mad About You_

Quote from: Saphim;398527Well, there is Kevin Siembieda who fucks his customers and writers over again and again and who milks the death of his friend for all it is worth. That is simply despiccable.

Not the first time I've heard someone say this. But I've never heard anyone actually give any evidence to back it up. Other than taking forever to put out books, how does he fuck over his customers? Other than rewriting freelancer work and giving them partial credit (since he rewrote their material) how does he fuck over his writers? Sure Bill Coffin wrote a brilliantly angry piece, but he later retracted it and apologized. Kevin basically gave CJ Carella free reign with Rifts and Nightbane. And lastly, how exactly did he milk Eric's death? I don't recall Kevin saying, "My best friend died, buy my shit!"

and while it's not said here, it is the same with the old, "Kevin S. is a big meanie because he sues people for posting conversions without permission!" It's like, every person who posts something negative about Palladium and Kevin knows someone who is cousins with someone whose dad knows a guy who got sued or ripped off or something.

Haters gonna hate.

I wouldn't say he "intentionally fucks over his customers", but Palladium has had it's fair share of shady business decisions. Amazon.com comes to mind; when they posted on Amazon, they posted books at MSRP + Shipping + Amazon fees.

Now, MSRP is supposed to cover things like Distribution and Retail costs, which typically make up somewhere to 70-80% of the cost of the book. It's not uncommon for a publisher to get $4-5 for a book that sells to the customer at $20 at the bookstore. This is pretty much standard book trade, pre-Internet.

For Amazon sales, Amazon is effectively acting as retailer (IIRC, Amazon charges 20-25%, as a fee), and the publisher has to use a mail carrier as the distributor. Which in the above example, means if Palladium gets charged less than $10 for postage, they call sell at MSRP and still make better profit, than traditional brick & mortar sale.

Palladium didn't do that, they tacked on Shipping and Amazon fees wholesale to the MSRP, trying to pocket the extra money difference. In fact, that violates Amazon's term of service; you cannot sell for a cheaper price, elsewhere on the Internet (in this case, Palladium's own storefront).

And rather than eat the cost of Amazon's storefront, you know, the largest bookseller in the world currently, Palladium pulled it's entire library from Amazon.

I would call that a marketing blunder based on Kevin's ignorance, rather than intentionally trying to stick it to their customers. In fact, the whole time I was reading that, I was saying to myself, "if that's the case, why not just go to the Palladium site?"

I mean, look at the Christmas grab bags, you order one, and you basically get half the stuff for free. It's one of the best deals out there for actual RPG books, and the deal lasts for like 4 months out of the year. That doesn't seem like something someone who hates their customers would do.

I'm not a big fan of Palladium's business practices, in fact I left their forums after getting "warned" by a mod because I posted a snarky comment about Kevin needing an actual business plan that wasn't written on a napkin 30 years ago. But I've never seen anything he's ever done as intentional malicious - it's always just really bad business/marketing decisions because, well, he's not really a businessman and he's definitely not a marketer. He's a gamer who got lucky a bunch of times.

To me, the biggest villain in the RPG industry is the owner of the local game store who decides to charge full cover price for a raggedy used book, that he has 12 copies of and doesn't understand why he hasn't sold a single one in a decade.

Quote from: Prisoner_of_Nostalgia;6487373) Storyteller/Narrativist types - My issue with these guys is this repeated notion I see that rules are unimportant and the only thing that matters is 'quickness and fun!'. I always ask them why they don't save a lot of money by just joining some sort of drama club/improvisational acting troupe and quit buying 'games' with only a 'rock, paper, scissors' type 'mechanic' to even call them 'games'.

At least to some extent, that's precisely what they did.  No one's going to call classic World of Darkness stuff mechanically robust, and a lot of people jettison large parts of the ruleset.  The big draw over improv group is similar to that of fanfiction or choose-your-own-adventure works over original writing, that of an established and resonant world or set of choices which can allow multiple people to work better than they might otherwise.  ((If that sounds like an insult to one or both groups, it probably is, with the caveat that I /like/ both sets of works.))

Quote from: RPGPundit;649155Its only nonsense if you're using it wrong.

It remains nonsense if someone else is using it wrong, too, which seems unfortunately common among the New Age crowd.

Can I be a villain in someones game? :D

Quote from: Silverlion;649599Can I be a villain in someones game? :D

Well, I'm preparing for a Gangland in Fantasy Setting game, so I can name one of the mob bosses Silver Lion, if it's enough for ya ;).

Quote from: Rincewind1;649600Well, I'm preparing for a Gangland in Fantasy Setting game, so I can name one of the mob bosses Silver Lion, if it's enough for ya ;).

Awesome. I can be a paper mafia guy :D (You'd be surprised how much money there is in the printing press?)

Quote from: Silverlion;649602Awesome. I can be a paper mafia guy :D (You'd be surprised how much money there is in the printing press?)

I wouldn't be, since I know about Superdollar and perhaps more importantly, Polish' mob forgery operations, which are supposedly actually superior to that.

But since I'm going to be using silver coins, you can be the leader of forgers and coin cutters ;).  Named after a mane of silver hair, though some joke that it is because of a harem of "lioness" you keep.

Quote from: Rincewind1;649604I wouldn't be, since I know about Superdollar and perhaps more importantly, Polish' mob forgery operations, which are supposedly actually superior to that.

But since I'm going to be using silver coins, you can be the leader of forgers and coin cutters ;).  Named after a mane of silver hair, though some joke that it is because of a harem of "lioness" you keep.

Awesome! :D
I get to be a villain! Yaaaay!

Quote from: Silverlion;649599Can I be a villain in someones game? :D

Have you any credentials in Mad Science That Threatens To Destabilise The Very Nature Of Reality while maintaining an altruistic view of yourself and preparing elaborate but deadly cul de sacs for government agents to investigate? Bonus points if you look good in a plastic lab coat while wearing goggles.

The truest villainy is banality. I will become... the apathetic office worker who lives only for the weekends! You may call me "Bob, from Accounting."*

*(I am not actually an office worker, named Bob, or from accounting. I do however enjoy weekends immensely, even if I may not live solely for them. Objects in the mirror are not as large as they may appear.)

Quote from: Cylonophile;398502Hmm. At times I think that some of the people who just create the sickest, darkest, most repugnant game settings imaginable might fall into this category, but then they don't make anyone play their dark, depressing, fatalistic stuff. I'm not crazy about them and I don't like the uberdark stuff, but calling them villains might be going to far.

 I really think it's kinda pathetic to put what amounts to softcore porn on the cover of game products as it makes gamers look like drooling adolescent geeks buying stuff because there's a near naked woman on the cover. Avalanche press does this shit a lot and it makes some gamers look bad. I don't even touch their stuff.

 Those are my peeves about the rpg biz, if that makes them villains then so be it.

Avalanche Press makes RPG's?  I thought all they made was board games, huh..:huhsign:

my list:

MWP: for not realizing Cortex/Cortex+ is shit, and continuing to attach it to awesome licensed products...

Luke Crane: For being Luke Crane...

RPG.net: for being RPG.net (not really an industry leader, but their influence is there unfortunately)

Quote from: everloss;649541Not the first time I've heard someone say this. But I've never heard anyone actually give any evidence to back it up. Other than taking forever to put out books, how does he fuck over his customers?

He doesn't. I love me some pally stuff. But if you get fucked over by his hype of something then you deserve it. That and the "Crisis of Treachery". Where Kev got dicked and cried give me money with a honey voice. Then people gave money to him for nothing. No product. Maybe a picture and a thanks.

Quote from: everloss;649541Other than rewriting freelancer work and giving them partial credit (since he rewrote their material) how does he fuck over his writers?

Rewritten or not he takes credit and an "oh they helped". By writers can't say anything because of the transfer of rights, non-disclosure agreement he makes them sign, before he will accept their manuscript.

Quote from: everloss;649541Sure Bill Coffin wrote a brilliantly angry piece, but he later retracted it and apologized.

Again the right/disclosure agreement in effect. He had to retract it. Seriously. The writer of a certain game [COUGH]Dead Reign[/COUGH] for pally said he had shown one of his law professors a copy of the agreement, who was dumbfounded by how draconian, and encompassing it was. (Oh and by the way the original Dead Reign was based on

Quote from: everloss;649541Kevin basically gave CJ Carella free reign with Rifts and Nightbane.

He didn't give either of them that. Though he was looser about micromanaging everything back then. Now it would never, ever happen. Shit Erics was the only ones stuff he didn't (and I think wouldnt) fuck with. That I believe was a mutual respect and friendship thing. That even Kev wouldn't fuck with.

Quote from: everloss;649541And lastly, how exactly did he milk Eric's death? I don't recall Kevin saying, "My best friend died, buy my shit!"

That is a fallacy, you are correct.

Quote from: everloss;649541and while it's not said here, it is the same with the old, "Kevin S. is a big meanie because he sues people for posting conversions without permission!" It's like, every person who posts something negative about Palladium and Kevin knows someone who is cousins with someone whose dad knows a guy who got sued or ripped off or something.

He is pretty lawyer happy. But people take it to the extreme as not to be believable. Talk shit on the internet. He might, and its a very remote might get a little bent. Sign an agreement with him. He will clean your clock, using the agreement you signed.

Quote from: everloss;649541Haters gonna hate.

True enough I suppose.

Quote from: everloss;649593I would call that a marketing blunder based on Kevin's ignorance, rather than intentionally trying to stick it to their customers. In fact, the whole time I was reading that, I was saying to myself, "if that's the case, why not just go to the Palladium site?"

Sometimes people get gift cards for this place called Amazon.
To my knowledge, Palladium does not sell Gift Cards (amazingly).

QuoteI mean, look at the Christmas grab bags, you order one, and you basically get half the stuff for free. It's one of the best deals out there for actual RPG books, and the deal lasts for like 4 months out of the year. That doesn't seem like something someone who hates their customers would do.

...I've been hesitant to burst that bubble for a number of years, but "Santa Kev's" philanthropy actually works to his financial benefit. Again, remember MSRP is supposed to cover Distribution and Retail costs, and accounts for 70-80% of the MSRP. X-mas Surprises are sold direct from Palladium; no retail costs. X-mas Surprises are also billed for Shipping, so the customer foots the distribution costs, as well.

So you get twice as much product as MSRP...but Palladium gets 20-30% of MSRP as pure profit, compared to brick n' mortar sales.

It's not as good as the 70-80% of MSRP they get off Palladium storefront sales (they sell at MSRP + shipping), but nothing lasts forever.

QuoteBut I've never seen anything he's ever done as intentional malicious - it's always just really bad business/marketing decisions because, well, he's not really a businessman and he's definitely not a marketer. He's a gamer who got lucky a bunch of times.

I'll agree only up to a point; by this point, he knows he has a die-hard following, and seems quite willing to shuckster them. The recent crowd-funding efforts (Lemuria, NG1, & NG2) definitely show it, with something like 320 purchases averaging over $80 a piece for "special collector's items/books".

Quote from: everloss;649541Other than rewriting freelancer work and giving them partial credit (since he rewrote their material) how does he fuck over his writers?

Partial pay, to go with partial re-write, from what I've heard.

QuoteSure Bill Coffin wrote a brilliantly angry piece, but he later retracted it and apologized. Kevin basically gave CJ Carella free reign with Rifts and Nightbane.

The list of former Palladium staff and freelancers, no longer willing to work with Kevin, versus those that will, is very disproportionate.

Is that conclusive proof? No. But it does paint a fairly damning picture.

QuoteAnd lastly, how exactly did he milk Eric's death? I don't recall Kevin saying, "My best friend died, buy my shit!"

No, he literally sold some of Eric's old stuff, to the highest bidder on e-Bay, promoting it both on his Murmurs and Company Releases.

I have no doubt Eric told him to sell the stuff, but DAMN did it come across completely ghoulish.

Quoteand while it's not said here, it is the same with the old, "Kevin S. is a big meanie because he sues people for posting conversions without permission!" It's like, every person who posts something negative about Palladium and Kevin knows someone who is cousins with someone whose dad knows a guy who got sued or ripped off or something.

Actually, most got a Cease & Desist form letter from Kev's lawyer; it is not the same thing as a judge's Cease & Desist Order, or anything legally binding. It's basically a warning letter. The problem was the way it was worded, which was not conciliatory or informational, but blatantly confrontational.

From a legal standpoint they pulled a strong CYA, but from a PR standpoint, they basically gave a huge middle finger to their whole on-line fan base. (There was also politics at play, which are still at play at Palladium)

Let me be the first to point out, if not actually notice, that this is a two and a half year bit of necromancy.

Not that I'm not guilty of it myself. :D


I just wonder how many of today's quote responses actually expect to hear back from the posters they are quoting from when the thread was fresh?

I didn't see anything "ghoulish" in Kevin's reactions to Erick's death.

This thread's a reminder that I wish Cole still posted here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;651289I didn't see anything "ghoulish" in Kevin's reactions to Erick's death.

The e-Bay auctions of Erick's stuff didn't sit right with me, I'll admit.
On the other hand, as I mentioned above, I'm sure they were Erick's idea, to help out his best friend.

Quote from: daniel_ream;649163
Steven: I'm a peripheral visionary.  I can see into the future, but only way off to the sides.

Fran:  Are you often right?

Steven: Sometimes.

Fran: And the other times?

Steven: I'm not right.

Fran: How is that different from guessing?

Steven: Don't mock me.

~ "Fran" and "Steven", _Mad About You_

"I can call up spirits from the vasty deep."
"Well, so can I, and so can any man, but will they come when you call them?"

Quote from: ggroy;398517Lorraine Williams

Ditto what he said.