Quote from: ColonelHardissonWhat are some of those appalling errors? I ran a campaign with the game, and after applying the errata that was released (not even that much, really), it was a good, fun game. I'm interested in hearing the experiences of others who ran the game.

By the way, I have a review I wrote of the game after it was first released, with some notes from when I was running it. I'll post it to this site soon.

If you read the Dan Davenport review on rpg.net, which as ever is an extremely well written review, he says everything I would with greater eloquence than I could ever manage.

But above all, combat and chargen.  LotR is the only game where I couldn't generate pregens, mostly for the reasons Mr Analytical points out.  And as for combat, maximum damage does minimal harm, unless you use mook rules in which case hobbits turn into ninjae.  The combat system is one of the worst I have ever seen in a published rpg.

Quote from: BalbinusWell, it surprises me to say it, but I agree 100% with RPGPundit here, except for the use of the swine term which I don't agree with but the underlying logic of the post I think is spot on.

I agree too. If they were going to make it non-D20, they should at least have used a system that wasn't D20 with the serial numbers filed off. It pleased nobody. What they meant to achieve with the set up they went with is beyond me.

-mice

Quote from: BalbinusIf you read the Dan Davenport review on rpg.net, which as ever is an extremely well written review, he says everything I would with greater eloquence than I could ever manage.

It doesn't differ much from mine in overall attitude. I disagree with him on some things - all magic-users don't have to be Maiar, for example, as was pointed out on another thread by Akrasia, I beleive. Elves aren't Maiar and they clearly use magic. The Mouth of Sauron uses magic. The Witch-King was a spellcaster as a mortal, and it's implied that other Nazgul were as well.

Quote from: flyingmiceI agree too. If they were going to make it non-D20, they should at least have used a system that wasn't D20 with the serial numbers filed off. It pleased nobody. What they meant to achieve with the set up they went with is beyond me.

-mice

Same here. Hell, the Edges can be ported over to d20 as Feats with little (if any) alteration. Same goes for Order abilities. A strange design decision. If they were going to make it that easy to port to d20, why not just make it d20?

Quote from: BalbinusBut above all, combat and chargen.  LotR is the only game where I couldn't generate pregens, mostly for the reasons Mr Analytical points out.  And as for combat, maximum damage does minimal harm, unless you use mook rules in which case hobbits turn into ninjae.  The combat system is one of the worst I have ever seen in a published rpg.

I used to think the same thing about the combat system.  Then I oddly realized it was simulating the movies almost exactly.

"Mooks" in the game drop in a stiff breeze.  This very neatly simulates what you see in most every combat in the movies, from Aragorn hacking away to Pippin and Mary slaughtering orcs by throwing rocks.

The disconnect comes from monsters that aren't "mooks."  Those types of combatants (and PCs) take forever to do any damage to.  It creates a massive disconnect.  But, then again, that's exactly what we see in the battles with the Cave Troll in Moria, or the fight between Aragorn and the Uruk-Hai a bit later in Fellowship.

What the game should be faulted for is not providing more guidelines on important combatants versus mooks.  As it is, the reader gets the impression that the methods are used pretty much at random.

Quote from: GabrielI used to think the same thing about the combat system.  Then I oddly realized it was simulating the movies almost exactly.

"Mooks" in the game drop in a stiff breeze.  This very neatly simulates what you see in most every combat in the movies, from Aragorn hacking away to Pippin and Mary slaughtering orcs by throwing rocks.

The disconnect comes from monsters that aren't "mooks."  Those types of combatants (and PCs) take forever to do any damage to.  It creates a massive disconnect.  But, then again, that's exactly what we see in the battles with the Cave Troll in Moria, or the fight between Aragorn and the Uruk-Hai a bit later in Fellowship.

What the game should be faulted for is not providing more guidelines on important combatants versus mooks.  As it is, the reader gets the impression that the methods are used pretty much at random.

That's actually a fantastic observation, one that has never occurred to me before. I find your assessment to be supported by what I found happening in actual play - the combats seemed much like those in the movie. The PCs plowed through mooks until I threw more important opponents at them, and then the combats became more intense and dangerous.

The disconnect is one that has to be handled by the Storyteller (GM), tailoring each combat encounter according to how he wants the story to run. I threw mooks at the PCs when I wanted some brisk action but didn't want the PCs damaged for later, more dangerous, encounters. The players seemed to enjoy it.

Quote from: flyingmiceI agree too. If they were going to make it non-D20, they should at least have used a system that wasn't D20 with the serial numbers filed off. It pleased nobody. What they meant to achieve with the set up they went with is beyond me.

-mice

I found it the worst of all possible worlds, close enough to d20 to be an obvious copy of it to be blunt, but without the sophistication and interlocking logic of that game.

If I want d20, I want d20 proper, done correctly with an understanding of how it works.  I don't want a d20 knock off and I'd be pretty surprised if anyone out there does.

Like you, I have no idea why they thought that a good idea.  Either use another system entirely or adapt D20 proper and make it a licenced d20 game.  Hell, much as I don't especially love d20 I do recognise it as great design and that would have helped get lots of folk into the hobby who might not otherwise have.

Well, had they supported it.  As it is, with the lack of support they could have used any ruleset whatever and it would have made little odds.

Quote from: NicephorusI'm not going to argue the quality of old vs. new D&D.  But from a business sense, 3e/D20 is not a failure/bonehead move.  The redesign took a half dead game and totally revitalized it into a market leader. 2e was a muddled mess by then, with various kits, skills & powers books, and half a dozen settings.  I don't think more of the same would have gotten any where near the same level of public notice.

Yup, there's a big difference between "I don't like it" and "it was a boneheaded move".

For example, no one can argue that publishing Vampire was a boneheaded move for White Wolf.

You can argue that trying to imitate Vampire was a massively boneheaded move for the 90% of the industry that blindly followed that road trip to nowhere in the mid/late 90s.

RPGPundit

QuoteDecipher, like I was just saying to Mr. Analytical, is another bunch of foot-shooting nimrods. I mean, how on Earth do you manage to not make a bundle on a LOTR title, especially one that uses images and other intellectual property from the wildly successful movies? Support was non-existent, that's how.

I'm starting to feel the same way about the "Serenity" rpg.

Yeah, especially considering they used a no-name fantasy system for a big hard sci-fi property. Muy estupido.

Not to mention the fact that, because of some liscensing bs, they could only use material from the movie and not the TV show in the RPG! I've friends who are frothing Joss Whedon fans (and gamers) who flipped over that fact ("How could you be so cruel, Joss? WHY!?! Are you turning into a clean-shaven George Lucas in your lack of caring?!? ARGH!" - direct quote)

And that's why I'd just run a Serenity game as a grim-&-gritty d20 Future. I bitchslap MWP, Decipher AND Chaosium with my empty wallet! HA!

Quote from: RPGPunditYou got your history backwards, buddy. Wizards acquired D&D BEFORE the company was sold to Hasbro.

Diversification of games was precisely the opposite of what Wizards wanted to do, given that they came out with D20, and that they saw how TSR's "diversification" efforts had fucked that company up, essentially making them compete against themselves for no good reason.

RPGPundit

I'm just out of order chronologically on the last sentence, but it wasn't meant to be chronological.

TSR divided up, mostly, within their D&D franchise, splitting their core audience up into smaller fractions and performing in a halfarsed fashion with their non D&D products.  Its a shame, because a lot of the extra setting stuff was cool.

WOTC blowing cash aquiring anything and everything - a lot of it very good - and then killing it off, that was a missed opportunity to build up the industry as a whole on the back of Magic.

That blunder isn't as significant as GW's decision to turn into the GW hobby as far as devastating gaming goes, at least nationally here, but it is more broad based.

Quote from: dsivisYeah, especially considering they used a no-name fantasy system for a big hard sci-fi property. Muy estupido.

Especially considering that just about EVERY Traveller fan on the planet was watching Firefly and saying "dude, that's Traveller!".
If they'd used a Traveller system (either T20 or the latest version of Traveller) they'd have had a built in fanbase and a familiar proven system.

RPGPundit

GW's "Kids! Kids! Kids!" memo has to be up there.  Maybe someone with a better grasp of that time in GW's history could expound on it.

I'd do it, but I was one of those kids they were shooting for at the time.

OH yes... Serenity...  The worst part of that debacle was that Eden allegedly bid for the rights but got turned down in favour of the untried hacks of MWP.

I wish I could find the thread now but there was one spectacular moment when Steve D (who playtested it) complained about the need for skills for boats AND an other for different aquatic vehicles (or something along those lines).  

When he pointed out that it was skill bloat and that simplicity might be a better angle to work he was told to be quiet because those skills played an important part in the film.  A few months later the film comes out and there were no boats OR any other kind of aquatic vehicle.

Why bother to play-test if you're going to be that irrationally protective of your design choices?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhy bother to play-test if you're going to be that irrationally protective of your design choices?

Because everyone expects play-testing, so you give them pt, the same as movies and tv are run through test audiances.  However I'm guessing that they had already got the ok stamp on that part of the system and didn't want to go through the month+ of junk that changing it and getting it re-approved would have been.  Doesn't help the final product, but that's my guess as to why judging from the tiny bits I've heard about the process.  Licenced product lines can be a real pain, just ask Bullit over at Nothingland about the B5 license at Mongoose.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalOH yes... Serenity...  The worst part of that debacle was that Eden allegedly bid for the rights but got turned down in favour of the untried hacks of MWP.

Yep.  Serenity was very disappointing.   I was looking forward to the game for awhile and they horriable result  was depressing.   A system that not only didn't capture the feel of the genre, but also gets in the way of play