Hey old guys!

What did Gygax do about indoor fighting.  Were there rules about how much space you need to swing a sword in early editions?  

I ask becuase I have a cardboard tube about tje size of a Nodashi.  And I tried to take an over hand stance like the Cardboard tube Samurai.  No dice hit the ceiling.  

It got me thinking.  I don't know that I have ever been in a game where large weapons and wide swings were penalised.  And if we ever were we told the DM that was no fun, it was probably just too much book keeping.  

Anyone play where narrow corridors are actully an encumbrance to fighting?

I have some experience with reenactment sword fighting. Narrow corridors are a boon to defense, especially if you have a good shield.  Low cielings can be a problem though.

A standard 10x10 dungeon corridor, which is pretty big irl, offers plenty of room for sword fighting.

Yep, old AD&D had space requirements for weapons. The basic unit of measurement in AD&D was the 10' square, in which you could fit 9 people. Naturally you might well fight along a front, so each weapon had space requirements. The "longsword" had a 3' requirement, one of many reasons it was the most popular weapon by far.

Never played in a game where it was a big factor (beyond the "-2 to hit for confined space", and one particular encounter in White Plume Mountain), though occasionally the guy with the 2hander (which took up 6') would cause problems.

I'm currently running a version of AD&D using Dwarven Forge, i.e., a version of AD&D where you move on a grid. Nobody wants to stay in formation (often to their detriment, averaging more than one casualty a night), so the space requirements haven't been an issue.

Yes, though mostly rulings and house rules of varying complexity. More often than not, we've overlooked them except in certain situations. Trying to do it right and in specific detail can get complex quickly.

By default, no, but I've ruled that long swingy weapons couldn't be used in specific confined areas (sewers, etc.).

That's why spears and other stabby weapons are good to have, as well as short swords and other secondary weapons.

Yes, though spears and polearms can also be problematic at corners. Try getting a 5-foot-or-so pole from a hardware store and trying to quickly carry it around corners inside - there can be lots of oopses and oofs. Of course, people trained and experienced doing that would have less problems after some practice, but some corners can really be restrictive especially compared to what you can do with a long pole in the open.

On the weapons table in the PHB there's a list of how much room is needed

In practice it wasn't used that much since it was relatively rare fighting in a corridor. Though I remember  as a kid really annoying my DM by insisting on using an awl pike and being almost 20' away from the front line.

And actually, in my experience in putting up a flag pole, a 20' spear is going to be clumsy in any sort of situation.

1e PHB had space requirements but they are not necessarily realistic. A two handed sword does not need to be swung in great arcs, it is primarily a stabbing weapon and can be used much like a spear.

There were a couple old games that treated this subject in a playable manner:

1) Empire of the Petal Throne: In a 10' corridor, you could fight two abreast with longswords but you could fight three abreast if everyone was using things like spears and short swords. I use this rule as it offers the players a choice. Either two fighters doing 1d8 damage or three doing 1d6. Three d6s is slightly more effective which is a change from regular D&D where everyone just picks the highest damage weapon all the time.

2) TSR's Swords and Spells miniatures game actually sets a figure's base size by weapon type. An easy solution if you are using miniatures and not using a grid.

3) Arneson's Adventures in Fantasy has a small table giving modifiers for various sized weapons in different conditions; outdoors, interior room, corridor, and, finally, fighting in a doorway.

I know that with things like half-swording it's more of a complex topic, especially as it relates to damage. A longer sword doesn't actually stab any harder than a shorter one, whereas a longer sword's cutting strength is improved due to leverage. I remember reading a historical commentary about the late Roman army after switching from the gladius to a longer sword that it was determined that when fighting in close formation, the longer sword offered no advantage over the gladius.

In old D&D modules all the corridors were 10' wide. Space was not an issue. We never worried about folks swinging two-handed weapons.

Quote from: Tetsubo;986767In old D&D modules all the corridors were 10' wide. Space was not an issue. We never worried about folks swinging two-handed weapons.

Yeah, but how high was the ceiling?  10 feet?  Not high enough for a great sword.  Fuck right off with a long spear.

Wouldn't a spear be all about stabbing? So no ceiling issue there.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;986821Wouldn't a spear be all about stabbing? So no ceiling issue there.

Low ceiling can be an issue if you need to change the direction of the spear and the space to the sides isn't clear. The tricky bit about assigning penalties is that the specifics would really matter. I found that bringing a long pole into an apartment and trying to move about with it was a surprising reality check experience. It didn't match my expectations - I kept getting surprised I was bumping and getting stuck in places I wouldn't've expected to be problems. And that was without even trying to fight or coordinate with a group (though I'm sure it would improve with practice).

Quote from: Headless;986780Yeah, but how high was the ceiling?  10 feet?  Not high enough for a great sword.  Fuck right off with a long spear.

er... Dont to an overhead swing indoors? duh. The PC will learn that ASAP. Also. Dont do an overhead swing with a spear. Its not a halberd!

Apropos of nothing, does anything else think the thread title would make a great title for a BESM dungeon-crawling supplement?