Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 06:23:37 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 20, 2023, 06:13:46 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on January 20, 2023, 05:42:51 PM
What hive of scum and villainy are you seeing this at? At TPB the response to the morality clause seems to be a fear that WOTC will somehow get bought out by NuTSR like folks and come after the gays. I didn't think there was a worse place for Wokeness than TBP, and even they are getting some willies about that clause.

   I've caught some passing glimpses of the attitude on Twitter.

Yep, on the twatter there's about a 10% (I think) of people that are all for the morality clause and will call you a bigot for opossing it, even AFTER you explain to them how it can be used against their side in the future.

Even on Youtube, a few of the critics of WotC regarding the OGL say the clause is fine.

Hell even Tenkar said in a recent video that IF it was precise and concise and not vague it would be "somewhat palatable".

I'm stunned that anyone could be so naive, but especially Tenkar since he had a good view how the pitchforks came out for Frog God Games.

Given the duplicity shown by Hasbro it wouldn't surprise me if they try to hire out an astroturf crowd from a PR firm on something like Twitter. What's a $100k to hire some fake fans/bots when Hasbro thinks they have billion$ at stake with killing OGL 1.0a?

Quote from: wmarshal on January 20, 2023, 07:32:32 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 06:23:37 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 20, 2023, 06:13:46 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on January 20, 2023, 05:42:51 PM
What hive of scum and villainy are you seeing this at? At TPB the response to the morality clause seems to be a fear that WOTC will somehow get bought out by NuTSR like folks and come after the gays. I didn't think there was a worse place for Wokeness than TBP, and even they are getting some willies about that clause.

   I've caught some passing glimpses of the attitude on Twitter.

Yep, on the twatter there's about a 10% (I think) of people that are all for the morality clause and will call you a bigot for opossing it, even AFTER you explain to them how it can be used against their side in the future.

Even on Youtube, a few of the critics of WotC regarding the OGL say the clause is fine.

Hell even Tenkar said in a recent video that IF it was precise and concise and not vague it would be "somewhat palatable".

I'm stunned that anyone could be so naive, but especially Tenkar since he had a good view how the pitchforks came out for Frog God Games.

Given the duplicity shown by Hasbro it wouldn't surprise me if they try to hire out an astroturf crowd from a PR firm on something like Twitter. What's a $100k to hire some fake fans/bots when Hasbro thinks they have billion$ at stake with killing OGL 1.0a?

Tenkar is pro censorship when it's stuff he doesn't like, he got banned something on DTTRPG because it had ACAB stuff on it.

Now, I despise the ACAB people, but I will deffend their right to make an ass of themselves in public.

never mind

Quote from: Zachary The First on January 19, 2023, 07:56:02 PMAbsolutelyHUGE list of companies just announced behind ORC:

Just wait until you see the list of brand new subsidiaries from these companies who sign whatever OGL that WotC demands to get access to the 5e/6e/7e customer base.

It will also be yuge.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 20, 2023, 01:13:52 PM
I agree with you as far as it goes, on both the what and the why.  However, you are talking about technical infringement handled in a fair system by a judge with a clue.  Chris is talking about avoiding things that will get you in trouble in an unfair system where deep pockets will never get your case heard, and even if you are backed and it is heard, all it takes is one judge not paying attention, and you are hosed.

Sure, I've explicitly stated that as well. However, it doesn't make sense as a creator to let your creative output be harmed by "bad stuff that might potentially happen, after a long string of other unlikely bad events."

As I stated in the previous post, I'm all for creating unique new and original stuff. But if you're dead-set on those reptilian Kobolds, then why not? A creator making genuinely new things in good faith shouldn't have to worry. Spreading FUD is counterproductive. Creators should not stop creating just because there's someone out there with bigger pockets.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 05:02:15 PMSo, how thew fuck is the VTT going to prevent people from doing so?

The only way is to ban ALL foreign tokens so you can only use the ones provided by the VTT.

WotC could license out their own Official D&D VTT tokens that those VTTs can use or sell them to GMs as VTT token packs.

The individual VTTs could create their own VTT token packs - especially in the age of free AI art, and then limit VTT play to their "official" tokens.

Of course, they could also just declare themselves a Token-Neutral platform where individual GMs sign a contract saying they are 1000% responsible for any tokens they create, use or share.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 2023, 02:37:05 PM
A) a wandering priest
B) in a fantasy setting
C) that casts spells
D) using level based slots
E) that are prepared daily
F) from a list that contains spells of the same types that D&D has at the same levels D&D has them.
G) and is also able turn/destroy undead as a separate ability
H) and wears heavy armor
I) and has limited weapon selection (double points if the selection is limited to non-edged weapons)

You seem very intent on catastrophizing. There's numerous examples of games that match pretty much all of these points (besides perhaps F) and aren't getting sued. In fact, most of these are extremely common and any person who has played videogames in the past ~30 years could easily invent a new idea with all of these tropes without ever having played D&D or any TTRPG at all.

The only thing that would be at all an issue is if (F) meant literally lifting the Divine spell list, mechanics & text, from a WOTC product.

Quote from: Zelen on January 20, 2023, 08:52:22 PMYou seem very intent on catastrophizing.

Yeah its like as if Wizards did something catastrophic or something. The examples are listed are pretty common....Except their not really. At least not all the elements at once. Id say paladins are more widespread then clerics are in videogames and pop culture as a whole. Bringing up even larger megacorporations as counterpoints is generally a loosing formula. Blizzard Activision ripped off GW, but GW wouldn't dare go after them.
Bring up a videogame from 2010+ that matches A,B,C,G,H,I.

JRPGs have white mages and other rpgs may have a Priest class, but none of them really share ALL the baggage. Which is exactly what the point is about. The more you have to change from established lore/mechanics in your own variant, the more challenge its gonna be.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 20, 2023, 09:02:41 PM

Quote from: Zelen on January 20, 2023, 08:52:22 PMYou seem very intent on catastrophizing.

Yeah its like as if Wizards did something catastrophic or something. The examples are listed are pretty common....Except their not really. At least not all the elements at once. Id say paladins are more widespread then clerics are in videogames and pop culture as a whole. Bringing up even larger megacorporations as counterpoints is generally a loosing formula. Blizzard Activision ripped off GW, but GW wouldn't dare go after them.
Bring up a videogame from 2010+ that matches A,B,C,G,H,I.

JRPGs have white mages and other rpgs may have a Priest class, but none of them really share ALL the baggage. Which is exactly what the point is about. The more you have to change from established lore/mechanics in your own variant, the more challenge its gonna be.

You aren't wrong. The issue is there is more out there than that list. And if one lacks the creativity to make a new and interesting cleric then I question their talent.

Hasbro is a shit company for deauthorizing the OGL after people spent decades believing it was solid, building their livelihoods off of it. That is the only unforgivable sin. Outside of that, Hasbro doesn't owe anybody a thing.

Any creator that must latch themselves to the OGL is a B tier creator at best.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 20, 2023, 09:02:41 PM

Quote from: Zelen on January 20, 2023, 08:52:22 PMYou seem very intent on catastrophizing.

Yeah its like as if Wizards did something catastrophic or something. The examples are listed are pretty common....Except their not really. At least not all the elements at once. Id say paladins are more widespread then clerics are in videogames and pop culture as a whole. Bringing up even larger megacorporations as counterpoints is generally a loosing formula. Blizzard Activision ripped off GW, but GW wouldn't dare go after them.
Bring up a videogame from 2010+ that matches A,B,C,G,H,I.

JRPGs have white mages and other rpgs may have a Priest class, but none of them really share ALL the baggage. Which is exactly what the point is about. The more you have to change from established lore/mechanics in your own variant, the more challenge its gonna be.

Exactly, it's not the same to try to intimidate a megacorporation than a small fish, especially since said megacorporation (videogames) probably has more money then you and it's not derect competition, plus copyright doesn't expire if you don't deffend it so they can give each other the benefit of the law while trying to destroy the small fish.

Zelen thinks we live in an ideal world, we don't.

If the USA justice system worked like the UK one where looser pays everything, you might see more people standing up to the likes of Hasbro.

But then again, that's an ideal world not the real one.

Quote from: FingerRod on January 20, 2023, 09:56:00 PMAny creator that must latch themselves to the OGL is a B tier creator at best.

Yup. I see it as a win for me, but most people are mediocre, and I don't think they deserve to suffer for it. Am I happy I get more creative attempts at settings? Yes. Did I want a whole bunch of innocent people bankrupt by a megacorporation? No.

I prefer magic to either be all 'divine' in nature, or all 'arcane'. White mages are examples of settings where no magic is divine.

Wakfu/Dofus is the opposite. All beings are humans but by devoting themselves to a god they actually transform into species to match them and gain powers.

Quote from: Zelen on January 20, 2023, 08:52:22 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 2023, 02:37:05 PM
A) a wandering priest
B) in a fantasy setting
C) that casts spells
D) using level based slots
E) that are prepared daily
F) from a list that contains spells of the same types that D&D has at the same levels D&D has them.
G) and is also able turn/destroy undead as a separate ability
H) and wears heavy armor
I) and has limited weapon selection (double points if the selection is limited to non-edged weapons)

You seem very intent on catastrophizing. There's numerous examples of games that match pretty much all of these points (besides perhaps F) and aren't getting sued. In fact, most of these are extremely common and any person who has played videogames in the past ~30 years could easily invent a new idea with all of these tropes without ever having played D&D or any TTRPG at all.

The only thing that would be at all an issue is if (F) meant literally lifting the Divine spell list, mechanics & text, from a WOTC product.

I don't want small time publishers to run afoul of obvious copyright issues because some people with no actual skin in the game are still in denial over just what losing the OGL1.0a and associated actually means.

Tell me, what non-OGL project do you have in the pipeline? How much of WotC's Concept Stacks you planning on cutting and pasting into them with a hearty cry of "come at me bro!"?

Or are you just a voice with no skin in the game demanding others take the risk of bringing a vindictive Hasbro legal team down on them so you can pretend the ttrpg world hasn't been struck by a metaphorical nuke a little longer?

As to all these games using basically the entire WotC cleric Concept Stack; which games are these?

Dragon Age? The cleric role is filled by Mages who use cloth armor and staves. The magic system is entirely different.

WoW? Priests are limited to cloth armor, use staves, wands, daggers and maces and use completely different game/spell mechanics.

ESO? Closest equivalent is the Templar and their system allows any class to use any weapon or armor they devote effort to and their spell system is similarly quite different.

Final Fantasy? White Mages using cloth armor and staves.

Palladium Fantasy? Priest abilities are very different from D&D Clerics, are limited to light armor and have no weapon restrictions.

Tunnels & Trolls? No priest class... its Warrior or Wizard.

Savage Worlds, GURPS, HERO? No classes.

I think you greatly overestimate the number of properties (outside of expressly D&D-derived ones like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter or Pathfinder games) that have concept stacks anywhere close to the specific expression of the D&D cleric. The particular stack is basically non-existent outside of OGL-based systems.

I get it... the bomb has been dropped and people are moving through the stages of grief and every stage until acceptance is "how do I get back to how things were before?" You want someone to step up and risk their livelihood to give you that. Similarly others are holding out hope that that the ORC license will magically fix all things and let people go back to buying supplements for systems unchanged from what they were before WotC destroyed the OGL.

It's completely understandable. Its just NOT all that realistic.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 10:18:43 PM
Zelen thinks we live in an ideal world, we don't.

I've been quite explicit in pointing out otherwise. The point is simply to acknowledge that,

(A) It's pretty easy to meaningfully distinguish your own unique ideas & creations from D&D, and oftentimes this is easier & better than not doing it
(B) Spreading fear that Hasbrodeus is going to sue small creators isn't productive, especially when making overly broad claims about what's reasonably actionable and what isn't.

None of that implies we live in a perfect world. Merely by existing, there's a non-zero chance that merely existing could get you sued by one or more megacorporations, so you may as well end it all now.

Quote from: Zelen on January 20, 2023, 10:39:05 PMSpreading fear that Hasbrodeus is going to sue small creators isn't productive.

Some large video game companies shut down fan works pretty regularly, and I'm pretty sure that's not even legal. And it's not productive to what?

Quote from: Zelen on January 20, 2023, 10:39:05 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 10:18:43 PM
Zelen thinks we live in an ideal world, we don't.

I've been quite explicit in pointing out otherwise. The point is simply to acknowledge that,

(A) It's pretty easy to meaningfully distinguish your own unique ideas & creations from D&D, and oftentimes this is easier & better than not doing it
(B) Spreading fear that Hasbrodeus is going to sue small creators isn't productive, especially when making overly broad claims about what's reasonably actionable and what isn't.

And how did you come by this perfect legal knowledge of what is and isn't "reasonably actionable?"

Law degree? Writer in a field where copyright is often a factor? Watched a bunch of YouTube videos whose arguments supported your beliefs while skipping or dismissing those that didn't?

And how much of what you've determined is "not reasonably actionable" just happens to coincide with "what I want third-parties to keep making for me"?

For someone with no skin in this game you seem to have a lot of strong opinions about what risks small creators should ignore to deliver what you want.