Like the tin says, Gonnerman is changing the pronouns on his game, I mean it's his shit and he can do whatever and I would have exactly zero problem with it if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW it's just a matter of giving the woke an inch before they take control of your shit.
It's okay, the change will be in the 4ed that'll be under CC By SA which means someone could make Advanced Iron Age Fantasy and revert any wokeisms they manage to push into the game.
As for the proof?
It starts in page 162 or 163 but here's a link:
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620)
As one poster said there, 'it's activism creeping in'.
Nothing needs to change except for the SRD, but you've got to make the kids feel all fuzzy wuzzy.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 19, 2023, 12:44:11 PM
As one poster said there, 'it's activism creeping in'.
Nothing needs to change except for the SRD, but you've got to make the kids feel all fuzzy wuzzy.
Exactly, and he bent the knee to 2 people in his forum, I would imagine now they'll call on more activists since he already showed weakness and will pressure him to make more changes, "What do you mean Orcs are evil!? Don't you know they are black people!?".
Well, as soon as the new edition is out I'll start working on Retro Fantasy RPG, undoing all the wokeisms there, then publish it on the Geek Emperium. PWYW (If they have the option or free if they allow me, if not then in my blog with a buy me a beer button or something.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:01:58 PM
I'll start working on Retro Fantasy RPG, undoing all the wokeisms there, then publish it on the Geek Emperium. PWYW (If they have the option or free if they allow me, if not then in my blog with a buy me a beer button or something.
This is the key.
Us making our own shit while gatekeeping the childish politics and the American uber-political correctness.
I mean... bending the knee just because of one or two dweebs - it's really pathetic.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 19, 2023, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:01:58 PM
I'll start working on Retro Fantasy RPG, undoing all the wokeisms there, then publish it on the Geek Emperium. PWYW (If they have the option or free if they allow me, if not then in my blog with a buy me a beer button or something.
This is the key.
Us making our own shit while gatekeeping the childish politics and the American uber-political correctness.
I mean... bending the knee just because of one or two dweebs - it's really pathetic.
I wouldn't bend it for a thousand sparkle trolls reeing.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 19, 2023, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:01:58 PM
I'll start working on Retro Fantasy RPG, undoing all the wokeisms there, then publish it on the Geek Emperium. PWYW (If they have the option or free if they allow me, if not then in my blog with a buy me a beer button or something.
This is the key.
Us making our own shit while gatekeeping the childish politics and the American uber-political correctness.
I mean... bending the knee just because of one or two dweebs - it's really pathetic.
I wouldn't bend it for a thousand sparkle trolls reeing.
Fooking right mate. Never compromise or censor your art because of someone's feefees. And if they don't like it they can go off and kick rocks.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 19, 2023, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 19, 2023, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:01:58 PM
I'll start working on Retro Fantasy RPG, undoing all the wokeisms there, then publish it on the Geek Emperium. PWYW (If they have the option or free if they allow me, if not then in my blog with a buy me a beer button or something.
This is the key.
Us making our own shit while gatekeeping the childish politics and the American uber-political correctness.
I mean... bending the knee just because of one or two dweebs - it's really pathetic.
I wouldn't bend it for a thousand sparkle trolls reeing.
Fooking right mate. Never compromise or censor your art because of someone's feefees. And if they don't like it they can go off and kick rocks.
Just you wait till I'm done with it, I'll have the Sparkle Trolls Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeing like Trump just got re-elected.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:29:19 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 19, 2023, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 19, 2023, 01:06:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:01:58 PM
I'll start working on Retro Fantasy RPG, undoing all the wokeisms there, then publish it on the Geek Emperium. PWYW (If they have the option or free if they allow me, if not then in my blog with a buy me a beer button or something.
This is the key.
Us making our own shit while gatekeeping the childish politics and the American uber-political correctness.
I mean... bending the knee just because of one or two dweebs - it's really pathetic.
I wouldn't bend it for a thousand sparkle trolls reeing.
Fooking right mate. Never compromise or censor your art because of someone's feefees. And if they don't like it they can go off and kick rocks.
Just you wait till I'm done with it, I'll have the Sparkle Trolls Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeing like Trump just got re-elected.
Haw haw haw... looking forward to it mate!
I forget what book it was, but it alternated between "he" and "she" each chapter.
I felt so unrepresented!! I could only read every second chapter!!!
The rational and autist solution here is to nuke all pronouns except one, be it "he" "she" "it" or "whatever". Here's your pronoun it's the same as everyone else's, fuck you.
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 19, 2023, 01:34:58 PM
I forget what book it was, but it alternated between "he" and "she" each chapter.
I felt so unrepresented!! I could only read every second chapter!!!
The rational and autist solution here is to nuke all pronouns except one, be it "he" "she" "it" or "whatever". Here's your pronoun it's the same as everyone else's, fuck you.
EXACTLY!
Back when Dinosaurs roamed the Earth and I was learning English in Junior College I learned the correct gender neutral for persons is He.
Don't feel represented? Too bad, cry me a river
Don't feel "safe" reading/playing the game? Oh no! Well anyway
Think Clerics/Paladins should be able to be Atheists? Bwahahahahahahha kiss my latino ass.
Think Orcs are Black People? Go fuck yourself fucking racist.
And that's the correct answer to the Sparkle Trolls ALWAYS.
I was speaking of BFRPG in a very positive light, the other day. Man..... Now I regret having done so. Why do people insist upon fixing what isn't broken?
Why do the people who do none of the work get to make decisions in any way?
This is stupid no matter which way you look at it.
Well, that's a shame.
That said, while I'm not remotely Woke, I do prefer a more conversational tone in my writing so tend to default to "You" or "Your PC/Group" or "The/Your GM" in the Player's Guide and to "You" and "The/Your PC's/Players/Group" in the GM's Guide. For mechanics targeting others its "target, creature, object, ally, or enemy" depending on the ability (target is "anything", creature is "any creature", object is "any object", ally and enemy is "any creature allied or opposed to you based on your perceptions of them when using the action").
Alternately for various mechanics I just skip the pronoun entirely (ex. "Add 2 to Deceit, Insight and Stealth") because its perfectly clear from the section who is supposed to be doing what and shorter lines are easier to read/less cluttered.
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 19, 2023, 01:34:58 PM
I forget what book it was, but it alternated between "he" and "she" each chapter.
I felt so unrepresented!! I could only read every second chapter!!!
The rational and autist solution here is to nuke all pronouns except one, be it "he" "she" "it" or "whatever". Here's your pronoun it's the same as everyone else's, fuck you.
I remember that too, except it alternated he and she every page.
Oddly, I didn't mind it, though it must've been a pain in the ass to edit. But oh well.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 12:35:32 PM
Like the tin says, Gonnerman is changing the pronouns on his game, I mean it's his shit and he can do whatever and I would have exactly zero problem with it if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW it's just a matter of giving the woke an inch before they take control of your shit.
It's okay, the change will be in the 4ed that'll be under CC By SA which means someone could make Advanced Iron Age Fantasy and revert any wokeisms they manage to push into the game.
As for the proof?
It starts in page 162 or 163 but here's a link:
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620)
This is not a surprise. Despite the green listing for wanting "no politics" that resulted when he was accused of being alt-right because Clownfish TV said they played BFRPG over 5e because of WotC woke stance.
He made his "no politics" statement, but also asked Clownfish TV to not mention the game again.
His "no politics" was giving into wokists calling him alt-right because someone liked his game. That was the inch.
Now they want their mile and he's giving in.
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 19, 2023, 01:34:58 PM
I forget what book it was, but it alternated between "he" and "she" each chapter.
I felt so unrepresented!! I could only read every second chapter!!!
The rational and autist solution here is to nuke all pronouns except one, be it "he" "she" "it" or "whatever". Here's your pronoun it's the same as everyone else's, fuck you.
The oddity is there was one brief period where he and she were used in RPGs that made sense and helped make things clearer. In the aughts I had a few books where one (usually she, so pro-woke maybe) was the DM and the other was players. It added a bit more clarity.
Yet in the pronoun frenzy that useful variation is gone.
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 19, 2023, 01:34:58 PM
The rational and autist solution here is to nuke all pronouns except one, be it "he" "she" "it" or "whatever". Here's your pronoun it's the same as everyone else's, fuck you.
This is phrased like an alternative, but isn't this exactly what Gonnerman is doing?
As I read the thread, Gonnerman wrote BFRPG in 2006 using "he or she" throughout (like original AD&D), and is now switching to singular "they" throughout.
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 19, 2023, 02:41:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 12:35:32 PM
Like the tin says, Gonnerman is changing the pronouns on his game, I mean it's his shit and he can do whatever and I would have exactly zero problem with it if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW it's just a matter of giving the woke an inch before they take control of your shit.
It's okay, the change will be in the 4ed that'll be under CC By SA which means someone could make Advanced Iron Age Fantasy and revert any wokeisms they manage to push into the game.
As for the proof?
It starts in page 162 or 163 but here's a link:
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620)
This is not a surprise. Despite the green listing for wanting "no politics" that resulted when he was accused of being alt-right because Clownfish TV said they played BFRPG over 5e because of WotC woke stance.
He made his "no politics" statement, but also asked Clownfish TV to not mention the game again.
His "no politics" was giving into wokists calling him alt-right because someone liked his game. That was the inch.
Now they want their mile and he's giving in.
Yep, that's true, still he kinda sorta apologized latter to Kneon, which made me think MAYBE there was hope for him...
How wrong was I.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 19, 2023, 02:41:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 12:35:32 PM
Like the tin says, Gonnerman is changing the pronouns on his game, I mean it's his shit and he can do whatever and I would have exactly zero problem with it if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW it's just a matter of giving the woke an inch before they take control of your shit.
It's okay, the change will be in the 4ed that'll be under CC By SA which means someone could make Advanced Iron Age Fantasy and revert any wokeisms they manage to push into the game.
As for the proof?
It starts in page 162 or 163 but here's a link:
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620)
This is not a surprise. Despite the green listing for wanting "no politics" that resulted when he was accused of being alt-right because Clownfish TV said they played BFRPG over 5e because of WotC woke stance.
He made his "no politics" statement, but also asked Clownfish TV to not mention the game again.
His "no politics" was giving into wokists calling him alt-right because someone liked his game. That was the inch.
Now they want their mile and he's giving in.
Yep, that's true, still he kinda sorta apologized latter to Kneon, which made me think MAYBE there was hope for him...
How wrong was I.
The apology was why I didn't suggest he be moved to yellow more than once.
Now we know what it was worth.
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 02:50:31 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 19, 2023, 01:34:58 PM
The rational and autist solution here is to nuke all pronouns except one, be it "he" "she" "it" or "whatever". Here's your pronoun it's the same as everyone else's, fuck you.
This is phrased like an alternative, but isn't this exactly what Gonnerman is doing?
As I read the thread, Gonnerman wrote BFRPG in 2006 using "he or she" throughout (like original AD&D), and is now switching to singular "they" throughout.
It all means the same thing so why switch? Mayhaps to signal a virtue?
It's the same representation psychology that caused this nonsense:
LGB
LGBT
LGBTQ
LGBTQ2S
LGBTQ2S+
Everyone gets a letter and everyone gets a pronoun! And there's no room for actual substance!
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 02:50:31 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 19, 2023, 01:34:58 PM
The rational and autist solution here is to nuke all pronouns except one, be it "he" "she" "it" or "whatever". Here's your pronoun it's the same as everyone else's, fuck you.
This is phrased like an alternative, but isn't this exactly what Gonnerman is doing?
As I read the thread, Gonnerman wrote BFRPG in 2006 using "he or she" throughout (like original AD&D), and is now switching to singular "they" throughout.
IF it was just about the use of one pronoun over the other then YOU might be right, but as usual you either don't understand (I doubt it) or are a disingenuous twat trying to obfuscate.
It's WHY he's doing it that matters even more than WHAT he's doing.
Let me explain it to you:
He's making the change because 2 Sparkle Trolls complained and then one rational (probably right wing?) person said it was activism creeping in.
So he's doing it to demonstrate he's a virtuous person and is on the right side of history.
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 19, 2023, 02:58:31 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 19, 2023, 02:41:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 12:35:32 PM
Like the tin says, Gonnerman is changing the pronouns on his game, I mean it's his shit and he can do whatever and I would have exactly zero problem with it if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW it's just a matter of giving the woke an inch before they take control of your shit.
It's okay, the change will be in the 4ed that'll be under CC By SA which means someone could make Advanced Iron Age Fantasy and revert any wokeisms they manage to push into the game.
As for the proof?
It starts in page 162 or 163 but here's a link:
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620)
This is not a surprise. Despite the green listing for wanting "no politics" that resulted when he was accused of being alt-right because Clownfish TV said they played BFRPG over 5e because of WotC woke stance.
He made his "no politics" statement, but also asked Clownfish TV to not mention the game again.
His "no politics" was giving into wokists calling him alt-right because someone liked his game. That was the inch.
Now they want their mile and he's giving in.
Yep, that's true, still he kinda sorta apologized latter to Kneon, which made me think MAYBE there was hope for him...
How wrong was I.
The apology was why I didn't suggest he be moved to yellow more than once.
Now we know what it was worth.
Probably to avoid his right wing base from abandoning him?
In any case all 3 actions show a complete and total lack of spine.
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.
But this shows that he himself has been woke for a long time:
QuoteI'm guessing you're fortunate enough to be straight. I am too, but I have too many friends who aren't so "fortunate" (not denigrating them by the use of that word, but pointing out the unfairness of the position) and I take their feelings seriously. Being kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.
That's identity politics, and there's never anything good about it. It's at best neutral if he isn't outright hostile to non-progressives.
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.
"He" is literally "gender neutral" when you don't know the sex of a subject...where the fuck did you learn English?
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.
Prior to 2020, formal writing in English was to use "he" for indeterminate third-person singular. "They" was in use, but was considered informal or colloquial. Only with the rise of woke in the last two years has the writing standard been changed.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 19, 2023, 05:19:57 PM
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.
Prior to 2020, formal writing in English was to use "he" for indeterminate third-person singular. "They" was in use, but was considered informal or colloquial. Only with the rise of woke in the last two years has the writing standard been changed.
Singular they has been in use in English going back to the 14th century. That pre-dates Shakespeare, and Shakespeare himself - the father of modern English - used singular they. The people complaining about it have never been right. And aside from that, using 'he' in place of 'they' for indeterminate gender is just stupid. It's illogical. Also, generally ignorant - if you really object to the use of singular they, you should be like a Quaker and stop using singular you.
Quote from: Brad on January 19, 2023, 05:17:24 PM
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.
"He" is literally "gender neutral" when you don't know the sex of a subject...where the fuck did you learn English?
It is not. English is a language that uses natural gender and not grammatical gender. It would be acceptable to use in French or German depending on what the antecedent noun is, but not in English. If you want to be charitable to the people claiming that 'he' is gender neutral, they're confusing French, which collapsed the neutral form in with the masculine (which is why there are more masculine nouns in French than feminine), and thus uses 'il' in a gender neutral fashion, with English. English never got rid of the neutral form, so there has never been a justification to follow suit with French.
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 05:26:48 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 19, 2023, 05:19:57 PM
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.
Prior to 2020, formal writing in English was to use "he" for indeterminate third-person singular. "They" was in use, but was considered informal or colloquial. Only with the rise of woke in the last two years has the writing standard been changed.
Singular they has been in use in English going back to the 14th century. That pre-dates Shakespeare, and Shakespeare himself - the father of modern English - used singular they. The people complaining about it have never been right. And aside from that, using 'he' in place of 'they' for indeterminate gender is just stupid. It's illogical. Also, generally ignorant - if you really object to the use of singular they, you should be like a Quaker and stop using singular you.
Singular
they for someone of unknown sex goes back to the 14th century.
They for someone of known sex is something new that I doubt goes back to the last century.
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 05:29:59 PM
Quote from: Brad on January 19, 2023, 05:17:24 PM
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.
"He" is literally "gender neutral" when you don't know the sex of a subject...where the fuck did you learn English?
It is not. English is a language that uses natural gender and not grammatical gender. It would be acceptable to use in French or German depending on what the antecedent noun is, but not in English. If you want to be charitable to the people claiming that 'he' is gender neutral, they're confusing French, which collapsed the neutral form in with the masculine (which is why there are more masculine nouns in French than feminine), and thus uses 'il' in a gender neutral fashion, with English. English never got rid of the neutral form, so there has never been a justification to follow suit with French.
How many TTRPG's from before the woke can you find that use they as singular?
Languages evolve, the fact that something was one way in the 14th century doesn't mean it has remained the same across the centuries.
So, at some point in time He became the gender neutral form and the singular they fell out of use. Until the woke came along and started reeing.
So, my games are written in gramatically correct English as per the teachings of my professors. The woke can Reeeeeeeeeeee all they want.
Can't wait for this to devolve into more pure stupidity that gives the fucking SJWs ammunition to continue to dilute language to the point it's purely retarded. Have fun with your forum sliding, jackasses.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 05:44:58 PM
How many TTRPG's from before the woke can you find that use they as singular?
No clue, I also don't care, because TTRPGS aren't relevant except for Gonnerman's justification for using 'he or she' because that was the style in AD&D. But when we're talking about what is correct English, nobody is going to look to a TTRPG to justify either side.
Quote
Languages evolve, the fact that something was one way in the 14th century doesn't mean it has remained the same across the centuries.
It doesn't, but singular they has remained the same across the centuries.
Quote
So, at some point in time He became the gender neutral form and the singular they fell out of use. Until the woke came along and started reeing.
Singular they never fell out of use. Singular he was suggested and introduced in the 18th century, and some people decided to follow that boneheaded idea, but it never replaced singular they.
Quote
So, my games are written in gramatically correct English as per the teachings of my professors. The woke can Reeeeeeeeeeee all they want.
This is what Geoffrey Pullum, co-author of the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, had to say on the topic in 2006 - well before it became a political hot topic:
QuoteBy all means, avoid using they with singular antecedents in your own writing and speaking if you feel you cannot bear it. Language Log is not here to tell you how to write or speak. But don't try to tell us that it's grammatically incorrect. Because when a construction is clearly present several times in Shakespeare's rightly admired plays and poems, and occurs in the carefully prepared published work of just about all major writers down the centuries, and is systematically present in the unreflecting conversational usage of just about everyone including Sean Lennon, then the claim that it is ungrammatical begins to look utterly unsustainable to us here at Language Log Plaza. This use of they isn't ungrammatical, it isn't a mistake, it's a feature of ordinary English syntax that for some reason attracts the ire of particularly puristic pusillanimous pontificators, and we don't buy what they're selling.
Do what you like, but you're wrong, and so are your professors.
I find it funny that you think the woke started when? late 2010s? You're wrong, by 2012 they were so ingrained in the atheist movement to launch Atheism+.
Well before that they had co-opted the social "sciences".
The reason He and She were used in AD&D it's because there already were feminists infiltrated in TSR.
It just wasn't called the Woke, but it was the same brand of social marxism that infects the TTRPG hobby and every other nerd/geek space.
I just use Spivak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun
Gonnerman has always been left-wing. His personal Facebook page has numerous left-wing political posts. He just never before let woke garbage creep into the actual Basic Fantasy products. But I had a hunch that he wouldn't always stay neutral.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 19, 2023, 06:18:52 PM
I just use Spivak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun
And second-person with the occasional royal "we" when referring to myself as the author in the text (ex. In an explanatory sidebar "we designed this element to allow you...") avoids all these headaches.
It's also the grammatically correct form for addressing an audience, like the readers of a rulebook (the "royal we" isn't, but with all the playtester feedback that shaped the end result, I almost feel that I should be using first person plural anyway and saying its a "royal we" both splits the difference and is mildly amusing).
Whatever; it will always be "Boring Fantasy Roleplaying" to me. One of the weakest products to come out of the OSR. The main (only) selling point was the price.
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...
Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.
Example:
The knight and her squire approached the gates, where they saw some soldiers above on the ramparts. They threw open the gates, and rode into the city.
Who did? The knight? Her squire? The soldiers?
or
"I saw my friend sitting with a group of people at a table in the tavern. I approached, and they said 'hi John'"
who did? Your friend, the group? Someone in the group?
in the 14th century, or whenever, the use of "they", as an indeterminate pronoun, was almost always limited to a collective pronoun (plural) when denoting combined action: "The army approached the city, and before they reached the walls, they dismounted. When confronted with the insults from the men on the walls, they responded with one voice ..." (there are some exceptions)
Try to avoid pronoun use altogether, and use passive voice in some cases (the gates were thrown open). Never use a third person, indefinite pronoun, when the subject has clear gender. If you want to avoid "his or her" use "one" (one can choose any faction).
We can argue about the evolution and parameters of grammar all day, but this is about clarity and style. I am not going to read some semi-incomprehensible shit involving neologisms and pronoun-misuse
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...
Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.
Example:
The knight and her squire approached the gates, where they saw some soldiers above on the ramparts. They threw open the gates, and rode into the city.
Who did? The knight? Her squire? The soldiers?
or
"I saw my friend sitting with a group of people at a table in the tavern. I approached, and they said 'hi John'"
who did? Your friend, the group? Someone in the group?
in the 14th century, or whenever, the use of "they", as an indeterminate pronoun, was almost always limited to a collective pronoun (plural) when denoting combined action: "The army approached the city, and before they reached the walls, they dismounted. When confronted with the insults from the men on the walls, they responded with one voice ..." (there are some exceptions)
Try to avoid pronoun use altogether, and use passive voice in some cases (the gates were thrown open). Never use a third person, indefinite pronoun, when the subject has clear gender. If you want to avoid "his or her" use "one" (one can choose any faction).
We can argue about the evolution and parameters of grammar all day, but this is about clarity and style. I am not going to read some semi-incomprehensible shit involving neologisms and pronoun-misuse
Truth is here.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...
Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.
Example:
The knight and her squire approached the gates, where they saw some soldiers above on the ramparts. They threw open the gates, and rode into the city.
Who did? The knight? Her squire? The soldiers?
or
"I saw my friend sitting with a group of people at a table in the tavern. I approached, and they said 'hi John'"
who did? Your friend, the group? Someone in the group?
in the 14th century, or whenever, the use of "they", as an indeterminate pronoun, was almost always limited to a collective pronoun (plural) when denoting combined action: "The army approached the city, and before they reached the walls, they dismounted. When confronted with the insults from the men on the walls, they responded with one voice ..." (there are some exceptions)
Try to avoid pronoun use altogether, and use passive voice in some cases (the gates were thrown open). Never use a third person, indefinite pronoun, when the subject has clear gender. If you want to avoid "his or her" use "one" (one can choose any faction).
We can argue about the evolution and parameters of grammar all day, but this is about clarity and style. I am not going to read some semi-incomprehensible shit involving neologisms and pronoun-misuse
This must be why my textbooks only listed:
I
You
He
She
It
We
You
They
But somehow the textbooks were wrong because 14th century.
If you can replace pronouns in your writing with non-pronouns, then do that whenever possible. Pronouns serve no useful purpose, not anymore at least, and many languages do just fine without them.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...
Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.
Unclear antecedents happen if you're using he or she. Avoiding the use of they doesn't help, and using 'he' as a gender neutral singular most certainly doesn't.
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...
Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.
Unclear antecedents happen if you're using he or she. Avoiding the use of they doesn't help, and using 'he' as a gender neutral singular most certainly doesn't.
a pronoun-antecedent error is more likely to occur with a third-person, indefinite pronoun, than it is with a first-person singular pronoun
but I agree that simply using "he" everywhere may not be a good option either if it creates confusion. This is why I avoid the use of pronouns when I can.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 19, 2023, 05:19:57 PM
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.
Prior to 2020, formal writing in English was to use "he" for indeterminate third-person singular. "They" was in use, but was considered informal or colloquial. Only with the rise of woke in the last two years has the writing standard been changed.
In professional writing such as RPGs, the writing standard has been changing for a long time, not just the last two years. I agree with GeekyBugle below, at least in terms of the facts.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 06:14:27 PM
I find it funny that you think the woke started when? late 2010s? You're wrong, by 2012 they were so ingrained in the atheist movement to launch Atheism+.
Well before that they had co-opted the social "sciences".
The reason He and She were used in AD&D it's because there already were feminists infiltrated in TSR.
It just wasn't called the Woke, but it was the same brand of social marxism that infects the TTRPG hobby and every other nerd/geek space.
I agree here that in the 1970s, use of singular "he" was less often used due to feminist influence, often replaced with "he or she" as was used in AD&D.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 08:24:19 PM
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Unclear antecedents happen if you're using he or she. Avoiding the use of they doesn't help, and using 'he' as a gender neutral singular most certainly doesn't.
a pronoun-antecedent error is more likely to occur with a third-person, indefinite pronoun, than it is with a first-person singular pronoun
I think there's a miscommunication here. migo was talking about use of gender-neutral "he", not the first-person singular "I". As an example of what migo is talking about,
"Bill waved at someone on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, they were gone."
versus the same using gender-neutral "he".
"Bill waved at someone on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, he was gone."
In the latter, it's unclear who was gone - Bill or the gender-unspecified someone. This is a case where having a gender-neutral that is different than the masculine helps. On the other hand, singular "they" also has its unclear cases, like:
"Someone waved at a group on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, they were gone."
I'm not sure how to estimate how common the different cases are. I'm also not sure if most specific is always the best way to determine the pronouns to use.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 08:24:19 PM
but I agree that simply using "he" everywhere may not be a good option either if it creates confusion. This is why I avoid the use of pronouns when I can.
That's reasonable, but also, most cases of unclear usage are obvious and can be avoided, while still using pronouns to simplify.
As BFRPG usually has quite a few translations done for it, should be amusing to see how their translators try to shoehorn in these changes. With a language like French that already has its own set of grammar rules, this terminology musical chairs just doesn't fly.
Is that hidden repression that needs to be expunged as well, or I guess if it can't be read, it doesn't matter really? With everything gendered it might cause someone an outrage heart attack or something.
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 08:43:05 PM
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 08:24:19 PM
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Unclear antecedents happen if you're using he or she. Avoiding the use of they doesn't help, and using 'he' as a gender neutral singular most certainly doesn't.
a pronoun-antecedent error is more likely to occur with a third-person, indefinite pronoun, than it is with a first-person singular pronoun
I think there's a miscommunication here. migo was talking about use of gender-neutral "he", not the first-person singular "I". As an example of what migo is talking about,
"Bill waved at someone on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, they were gone."
versus the same using gender-neutral "he".
"Bill waved at someone on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, he was gone."
In the latter, it's unclear who was gone - Bill or the gender-unspecified someone. This is a case where having a gender-neutral that is different than the masculine helps. On the other hand, singular "they" also has its unclear cases, like:
"Someone waved at a group on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, they were gone."
I'm not sure how to estimate how common the different cases are. I'm also not sure if most specific is always the best way to determine the pronouns to use.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 08:24:19 PM
but I agree that simply using "he" everywhere may not be a good option either if it creates confusion. This is why I avoid the use of pronouns when I can.
That's reasonable, but also, most cases of unclear usage are obvious and can be avoided, while still using pronouns to simplify.
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?
Unless you're talking about a play example?
Let's see what's being changed:
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....
Changed to
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.
I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?
Unless you're talking about a play example?
Let's see what's being changed:
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....
Changed to
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.
I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.
Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:
When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.This will presumably be changed to:
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:26:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?
Unless you're talking about a play example?
Let's see what's being changed:
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....
Changed to
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.
I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.
Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:
When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.
This will presumably be changed to:
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.
There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.
Sure, iy you were using He or She you're writting less after the change and flows better, it would also flow better if you droped one of the pronouns, keep whichever you want, it flows better and it won't cause confussion ever.
Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.
Or change your redaction to use You. "When your character is injured, you lose hit points from your current total.", perfectly, clear, perfectly gender neutral, inclusive, yadda, yadda.
But it's never changed to You, it's always they, because it has to be, it has to force you to participate and bend the knee to the cult.
Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
QuoteI'm guessing you're fortunate enough to be straight. I am too, but I have too many friends who aren't so "fortunate" (not denigrating them by the use of that word, but pointing out the unfairness of the position) and I take their feelings seriously. Being kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.
That's identity politics, and there's never anything good about it. It's at best neutral if he isn't outright hostile to non-progressives.
This
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
in the 14th century, or whenever, the use of "they", as an indeterminate pronoun, was almost always limited to a collective pronoun (plural) when denoting combined action: "The army approached the city, and before they reached the walls, they dismounted. When confronted with the insults from the men on the walls, they responded with one voice ..." (there are some exceptions)
Hell. they could barely speak English in the 14th century.
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:26:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?
Unless you're talking about a play example?
Let's see what's being changed:
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....
Changed to
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.
I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.
Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:
When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.
This will presumably be changed to:
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.
There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.
I am rushing out some unfinished stuff I've almost finished to beat the deadline of when the 1.0a gets revoked and I've settled on
"When a character is injured, the character loses hit points from the character's current total."
It's cumbersome but it's clear and I can't see how anyone can get offended either way.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:53:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:26:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?
Unless you're talking about a play example?
Let's see what's being changed:
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....
Changed to
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.
I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.
Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:
When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.
This will presumably be changed to:
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.
There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.
Sure, iy you were using He or She you're writting less after the change and flows better, it would also flow better if you droped one of the pronouns, keep whichever you want, it flows better and it won't cause confussion ever.
Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.
Or change your redaction to use You. "When your character is injured, you lose hit points from your current total.", perfectly, clear, perfectly gender neutral, inclusive, yadda, yadda.
But it's never changed to You, it's always they, because it has to be, it has to force you to participate and bend the knee to the cult.
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet. But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.
Quote from: JeremyR on January 20, 2023, 12:06:18 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:53:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:26:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?
Unless you're talking about a play example?
Let's see what's being changed:
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....
Changed to
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.
I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.
Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:
When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.
This will presumably be changed to:
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.
There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.
Sure, iy you were using He or She you're writting less after the change and flows better, it would also flow better if you droped one of the pronouns, keep whichever you want, it flows better and it won't cause confussion ever.
Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.
Or change your redaction to use You. "When your character is injured, you lose hit points from your current total.", perfectly, clear, perfectly gender neutral, inclusive, yadda, yadda.
But it's never changed to You, it's always they, because it has to be, it has to force you to participate and bend the knee to the cult.
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet. But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.
I assume you're speaking of the using the pronoun YOU, yes, that's the problem, therefore I'm sticking to He.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:40:50 PMAnd that's the correct answer to the Sparkle Trolls ALWAYS.
Keep posting like that and you'll have to change your username to Jalapeno Shark!
:)
QuoteBeing kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.
Fuck "kindness".
The modern definition of "kindness" is weak sauce bullshit (at best) and mostly involves bending the knee to degeneracy, mental illness and delusions.
..and "Retro Fantasy RPG" is a better title than "Basic Fantasy".
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 20, 2023, 12:33:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:40:50 PMAnd that's the correct answer to the Sparkle Trolls ALWAYS.
Keep posting like that and you'll have to change your username to Jalapeno Shark!
:)
Not unless I start saying they need to bathe in napalm.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 20, 2023, 12:40:48 AM
QuoteBeing kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.
Fuck "kindness".
The modern definition of "kindness" is weak sauce bullshit (at best) and mostly involves bending the knee to degeneracy, mental illness and delusions.
..and "Retro Fantasy RPG" is a better title than "Basic Fantasy".
Thanks, wait till you see what I have planed, and I will admit it's just as much to fuck with Gonnerman and his leftard croonies as because I think it would be cool. Some of the changes have shit to do with him but it's stuff I think will be a better RPG.
How weird, thought my professors in México and my textbooks were wrong, turns out Gonnerman was ALSO taught that They/Them can never be singular...
Boy some people here will have to eat crow.
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&start=1640 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&start=1640)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:21:27 AM
How weird, thought my professors in México and my textbooks were wrong, turns out Gonnerman was ALSO taught that They/Them can never be singular...
Boy some people here will have to eat crow.
What are you citing here? I have heard some teachers declare such a rule, but it goes against actual usage by talented authors. Some examples:
Jane Austen, Emma: "Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?"
Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey: "if I do not know any body, it is impossible for me to talk to them; and, besides, I do not want to talk to anybody."
Mark Twain, A Tramp Abroad: "I always ask everybody what ship they came over in."
Lewis Carroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass: "But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?"
Winston Churchill, The Story of the Malakand Field Force: "Every one realised afterwards how obvious this was and wondered they had not thought of it before."
George Eliot, Middlemarch: "The fact is, I never loved any one well enough to put myself into a noose for them."
C.S. Lewis, Voyage of the Dawn Treader: "Still, she kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes."
So classic writers throughout the 19th and 20th century has lots of examples of singular they.
Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2023, 03:00:29 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:21:27 AM
How weird, thought my professors in México and my textbooks were wrong, turns out Gonnerman was ALSO taught that They/Them can never be singular...
Boy some people here will have to eat crow.
What are you citing here? I have heard some teachers declare such a rule, but it goes against actual usage by talented authors. Some examples:
Jane Austen, Emma: "Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?"
Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey: "if I do not know any body, it is impossible for me to talk to them; and, besides, I do not want to talk to anybody."
Mark Twain, A Tramp Abroad: "I always ask everybody what ship they came over in."
Lewis Carroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass: "But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?"
Winston Churchill, The Story of the Malakand Field Force: "Every one realised afterwards how obvious this was and wondered they had not thought of it before."
George Eliot, Middlemarch: "The fact is, I never loved any one well enough to put myself into a noose for them."
C.S. Lewis, Voyage of the Dawn Treader: "Still, she kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes."
So classic writers throughout the 19th and 20th century has lots of examples of singular they.
Look! Writers use a long not used by anyone else form of language! This disproves the evolution of the same!
Yes, writers in spanish speaking countries also sometimes use obscure words or forms of words long fallen in disuse by the plebs.
Doesn't mean we no longer say mesmamente that once was gramatically correct and now we say Asi mismo. But some writer could and have used it in their writtings because snob assholes tend to do such ostentacious things.
Unless of course you're going to assert that the professors of TWO countries are wrong because ostentacious asshole uses X.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?
Unless you're talking about a play example?
Let's see what's being changed:
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....
Changed to
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.
I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.
It isn't any clearer with he, he or she, or you. There's only one antecedent.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:53:44 PM
Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.
This isn't true, particularly since you want to bring up TTRPGS. She, along with he, as a gender neutral pronoun is a characteristic of TTRPGs using one to refer to the GM and the other to refer to the player. It is correctly declared in the beginning, so there are no surprises, and it aids in clarity by keeping the text from getting cumbersome.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 03:44:28 AM
Look! Writers use a long not used by anyone else form of language! This disproves the evolution of the same!
Yes, writers in spanish speaking countries also sometimes use obscure words or forms of words long fallen in disuse by the plebs.
This is also not true. Use of singular they became an issue in style guides exactly because the common people were using it, if everyone were using the gender neutral he (which why should they, it's clearly stupid, and nobody with
common sense would buy into it), it wouldn't have been a point of contention.
Quote from: JeremyR on January 20, 2023, 12:06:18 AM
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet. But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.
If I'm not mistaken, the pronoun "themself" entered the Webster dictionary in 2019.
Previously "themselves" was the correct use.
There's also some commentary that it was used in the 14th century.
Quote from: DocJones on January 20, 2023, 11:25:11 AM
Quote from: JeremyR on January 20, 2023, 12:06:18 AM
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet. But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.
If I'm not mistaken, the pronoun "themself" entered the Webster dictionary in 2019.
Previously "themselves" was the correct use.
There's also some commentary that it was used in the 14th century.
As a substitute for Himself or Herself it's still not 2nd person. You/Your and Thou/Thy (and plural Ye/Your) are the only valid second person pronouns in English... and only You/Your is not considered archaic.
That said, for a particularly thematic rpg, going with Thee/Thy and Ye/Your in Thy rules might be fun.
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 2023, 11:43:00 AM
Quote from: DocJones on January 20, 2023, 11:25:11 AM
Quote from: JeremyR on January 20, 2023, 12:06:18 AM
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet. But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.
If I'm not mistaken, the pronoun "themself" entered the Webster dictionary in 2019.
Previously "themselves" was the correct use.
There's also some commentary that it was used in the 14th century.
As a substitute for Himself or Herself it's still not 2nd person. You/Your and Thou/Thy (and plural Ye/Your) are the only valid second person pronouns in English... and only You/Your is not considered archaic.
That said, for a particularly thematic rpg, going with Thee/Thy and Ye/Your in Thy rules might be fun.
Right. Technically themselves, yourself, yourselves, etc are reflexive pronoun, which are useful in writing.
The following is a fun read. There are more than 100 pronouns. Here's the full list... (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/List-of-pronouns.htm)
Quote from: migo on January 20, 2023, 04:32:13 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?
Unless you're talking about a play example?
Let's see what's being changed:
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....
Changed to
When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.
I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.
It isn't any clearer with he, he or she, or you. There's only one antecedent.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:53:44 PM
Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.
This isn't true, particularly since you want to bring up TTRPGS. She, along with he, as a gender neutral pronoun is a characteristic of TTRPGs using one to refer to the GM and the other to refer to the player. It is correctly declared in the beginning, so there are no surprises, and it aids in clarity by keeping the text from getting cumbersome.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 03:44:28 AM
Look! Writers use a long not used by anyone else form of language! This disproves the evolution of the same!
Yes, writers in spanish speaking countries also sometimes use obscure words or forms of words long fallen in disuse by the plebs.
This is also not true. Use of singular they became an issue in style guides exactly because the common people were using it, if everyone were using the gender neutral he (which why should they, it's clearly stupid, and nobody with common sense would buy into it), it wouldn't have been a point of contention.
If I tell you that to be inclusive the GM will be referred as she and the player as he it doesn't make the SHE pronoun gender neutral, it makes me a pussy.
Yes, SOME people started using the singular they to feel like the most special of snowflakes. Now, for a neologism or to resurrect an archaic idiom it needs to be in use by most for a long period of time.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.
This is the way.
I'm just going to use "he" because it's the most correct pronoun.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:48:42 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.
This is the way.
Whenever anyone tells you that you must do x and y in an elf game always do the opposite. Fook 'em.
Quote from: Zelen on January 20, 2023, 12:52:15 PM
I'm just going to use "he" because it's the most correct pronoun.
Triggering the woke and driving them to Reeeeeeeeeeeee is an added benefit.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:07:06 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 01:03:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:48:42 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.
This is the way.
Whenever anyone tells you that you must do x and y in an elf game always do the opposite. Fook 'em.
Exactly.
Naw, sometimes do the opposite, sometimes do the same, sometimes go off into left field. Try to always do what you would have done anyway, had they not said anything. On the negative side, you'll have instance where they think you are caving. To offset that, though, when you do go opposite, the results are spectacular.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 20, 2023, 01:18:42 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:07:06 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 01:03:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:48:42 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.
This is the way.
Whenever anyone tells you that you must do x and y in an elf game always do the opposite. Fook 'em.
Exactly.
Naw, sometimes do the opposite, sometimes do the same, sometimes go off into left field. Try to always do what you would have done anyway, had they not said anything. On the negative side, you'll have instance where they think you are caving. To offset that, though, when you do go opposite, the results are spectacular.
I thought the "Do what you want" was implicit.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 20, 2023, 01:18:42 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:07:06 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 01:03:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:48:42 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.
This is the way.
Whenever anyone tells you that you must do x and y in an elf game always do the opposite. Fook 'em.
Exactly.
Naw, sometimes do the opposite, sometimes do the same, sometimes go off into left field. Try to always do what you would have done anyway, had they not said anything. On the negative side, you'll have instance where they think you are caving. To offset that, though, when you do go opposite, the results are spectacular.
I thought the "Do what you want" was implicit.
You might be surprised at the number of people who will do something they don't want to do because someone told them not to. Supposed adults, even.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:47:54 PM
If I tell you that to be inclusive the GM will be referred as she and the player as he it doesn't make the SHE pronoun gender neutral, it makes me a pussy.
It's possible someone might do that out of political reasons, although it's more likely for them to go just all in and use she as the default pronoun. Using she for GM and he for player (or vice versa) makes it convenient that any time you read she you know it refers to the GM and he to the player.
Quote
Yes, SOME people started using the singular they to feel like the most special of snowflakes. Now, for a neologism or to resurrect an archaic idiom it needs to be in use by most for a long period of time.
You're wrong. It never stopped being used. It has been in use by everyone for centuries. You had to be educated to pick up the boneheaded idea of a gender neutral 'he'. And even then most great writers didn't take it on. Gender neutral he was the artificial creation that has always been forced on people and despite that never took off. Because everyone realises how stupid it is, some people just lack the balls to tell people to fuck off when they said it should be he.
Quote from: migo on January 20, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:47:54 PM
If I tell you that to be inclusive the GM will be referred as she and the player as he it doesn't make the SHE pronoun gender neutral, it makes me a pussy.
It's possible someone might do that out of political reasons, although it's more likely for them to go just all in and use she as the default pronoun. Using she for GM and he for player (or vice versa) makes it convenient that any time you read she you know it refers to the GM and he to the player.
Quote
Yes, SOME people started using the singular they to feel like the most special of snowflakes. Now, for a neologism or to resurrect an archaic idiom it needs to be in use by most for a long period of time.
You're wrong. It never stopped being used. It has been in use by everyone for centuries. You had to be educated to pick up the boneheaded idea of a gender neutral 'he'. And even then most great writers didn't take it on. Gender neutral he was the artificial creation that has always been forced on people and despite that never took off. Because everyone realises how stupid it is, some people just lack the balls to tell people to fuck off when they said it should be he.
I'm not saying it doesn't make it clear, I'm saying she isn't gender neutral because I have to tell you WHY I'm using it.
There's no MAYBE regarding the politics of WHY it was used.
So anybody that went to elementary school on English speaking countries? That makes the vast majority doesn't use it despite your claims. Add to that all of the people that took English as second/third/etc language...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:47:54 PM
If I tell you that to be inclusive the GM will be referred as she and the player as he it doesn't make the SHE pronoun gender neutral, it makes me a pussy.
I've seen that usage but never justified as inclusive. I've seen it justified as easier to understand but making pronoun antecedent clearer for player and GM.
I'm not sure it is very useful, but it seemed to be a minor help.
It might have been a smoke screen to cover inclusion but it was over a decade ago and mixed between companies since openly woke and companies not. Unless otherwise indicated I'll those authors in the second category at least at their word.
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 20, 2023, 03:33:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:47:54 PM
If I tell you that to be inclusive the GM will be referred as she and the player as he it doesn't make the SHE pronoun gender neutral, it makes me a pussy.
I've seen that usage but never justified as inclusive. I've seen it justified as easier to understand but making pronoun antecedent clearer for player and GM.
I'm not sure it is very useful, but it seemed to be a minor help.
It might have been a smoke screen to cover inclusion but it was over a decade ago and mixed between companies since openly woke and companies not. Unless otherwise indicated I'll those authors in the second category at least at their word.
He for player and she for GM (or the opposite) can work well for text that is primarily a technical reference. It's slightly more readable than saying "the GM" or "the player" over and over. Whether a given section of rules should be written primarily as a technical reference is another question.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 19, 2023, 06:34:34 PM
And second-person with the occasional royal "we" when referring to myself as the author in the text (ex. In an explanatory sidebar "we designed this element to allow you...") avoids all these headaches.
It's also the grammatically correct form for addressing an audience, like the readers of a rulebook (the "royal we" isn't, but with all the playtester feedback that shaped the end result, I almost feel that I should be using first person plural anyway and saying its a "royal we" both splits the difference and is mildly amusing).
"Editorial we", is THE grammatically correct choice when it comes to TTRPG rulebooks.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 03:44:28 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2023, 03:00:29 AM
What are you citing here? I have heard some teachers declare such a rule, but it goes against actual usage by talented authors. Some examples:
Jane Austen, Emma: "Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?"
Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey: "if I do not know any body, it is impossible for me to talk to them; and, besides, I do not want to talk to anybody."
Mark Twain, A Tramp Abroad: "I always ask everybody what ship they came over in."
Lewis Carroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass: "But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?"
Winston Churchill, The Story of the Malakand Field Force: "Every one realised afterwards how obvious this was and wondered they had not thought of it before."
George Eliot, Middlemarch: "The fact is, I never loved any one well enough to put myself into a noose for them."
C.S. Lewis, Voyage of the Dawn Treader: "Still, she kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes."
So classic writers throughout the 19th and 20th century has lots of examples of singular they.
Look! Writers use a long not used by anyone else form of language! This disproves the evolution of the same!
Yes, writers in spanish speaking countries also sometimes use obscure words or forms of words long fallen in disuse by the plebs.
It's completely the opposite. Mark Twain didn't use obscure words. He was famous for using vernacular as people actually talked, rather than the formal writing of other authors. The same goes for children's authors like Lewis Carroll and C.S. Lewis. All of these were popular authors who wrote the way that people talked.
The rule of gender-neutral "he" has been pushed by English teachers, but singular "they" has always persisted in conversational English. Native speakers reading the examples above don't see it as a flaw.
In historical practice, "he" was often used for predominantly-male (but sometimes female) positions like doctors, lawyers, or police -- but it was never used for predominantly-female (but sometimes male) positions like nurses, kindergarten teachers, or single caregivers. Hence, it was never really gender neutral.
You're arguing for obeying authority, and getting offended at people who ignore authority. But language is democratic in a way. People speak the way they speak, and if communication works, then it gets adopted.
"They" has been ruined by the freaks, marxists and those who bow to them.
Thus, just make your game read as you feel best gets across what you are trying to say using your own authorial voice. Proper grammar is less important than the text being clear and flavored by your voice.
Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2023, 07:00:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 03:44:28 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2023, 03:00:29 AM
What are you citing here? I have heard some teachers declare such a rule, but it goes against actual usage by talented authors. Some examples:
Jane Austen, Emma: "Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?"
Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey: "if I do not know any body, it is impossible for me to talk to them; and, besides, I do not want to talk to anybody."
Mark Twain, A Tramp Abroad: "I always ask everybody what ship they came over in."
Lewis Carroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass: "But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?"
Winston Churchill, The Story of the Malakand Field Force: "Every one realised afterwards how obvious this was and wondered they had not thought of it before."
George Eliot, Middlemarch: "The fact is, I never loved any one well enough to put myself into a noose for them."
C.S. Lewis, Voyage of the Dawn Treader: "Still, she kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes."
So classic writers throughout the 19th and 20th century has lots of examples of singular they.
Look! Writers use a long not used by anyone else form of language! This disproves the evolution of the same!
Yes, writers in spanish speaking countries also sometimes use obscure words or forms of words long fallen in disuse by the plebs.
It's completely the opposite. Mark Twain didn't use obscure words. He was famous for using vernacular as people actually talked, rather than the formal writing of other authors. The same goes for children's authors like Lewis Carroll and C.S. Lewis. All of these were popular authors who wrote the way that people talked.
The rule of gender-neutral "he" has been pushed by English teachers, but singular "they" has always persisted in conversational English. Native speakers reading the examples above don't see it as a flaw.
In historical practice, "he" was often used for predominantly-male (but sometimes female) positions like doctors, lawyers, or police -- but it was never used for predominantly-female (but sometimes male) positions like nurses, kindergarten teachers, or single caregivers. Hence, it was never really gender neutral.
You're arguing for obeying authority, and getting offended at people who ignore authority. But language is democratic in a way. People speak the way they speak, and if communication works, then it gets adopted.
A hundred+ years ago someone wrote using they as singular... Ergo language doesn't evolve, see your last point.
Teachers are there to teach, I doubt they all got together in a conspiracy to drop they as singular, but maybe you do. Funny you're against this but not against teaching CRT in schools.
No shit Sherlock!? Are you telling me that when speaking of people on a male dominated field people used he and if it was a female dominated field they used she? Well who da thunk it!
Language HAS TO be prescriptive, otherwise words have no meaning and we can't understand each other. It's why there's a Spanish Academy that says when words can go into the dictionary, not sure if english has the same.
Yes, I have said that language evolves, hence my point that it evolved outside the singular they as proven by textbooks all around the world BEFORE the woke takeover.
MarkS78 writes in basicfantasy.org thread page 162:
Quote
I think it was a fine way to phrase it at the time, but I think we now have language that's both more inclusive and at the same time more intuitive and handy. I personally know many people who use they/them prnouns [sic], I also do if that matters, and think this would be a very good change and a great way to include more people.
MarkS 78 is an idiot.
I use "him or her" sometimes in my RPG, not to make a statement, but to be 80s (it's an 80s RPG with an 80s feel) and to be grammatically correct. "They" to refer to a singular person is not, and slashed pronouns are ideologically based rather than neutral. As a potentially green company, I will never used slashed pronouns, even if I was NOT trying to give the game an '80s feel. they/them is not only unacceptable writing, it's a profession of one's denial of basic biological facts.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 21, 2023, 12:17:22 AM
MarkS78 writes in basicfantasy.org thread page 162:
Quote
I think it was a fine way to phrase it at the time, but I think we now have language that's both more inclusive and at the same time more intuitive and handy. I personally know many people who use they/them prnouns [sic], I also do if that matters, and think this would be a very good change and a great way to include more people.
MarkS 78 is an idiot.
I use "him or her" sometimes in my RPG, not to make a statement, but to be 80s (it's an 80s RPG with an 80s feel) and to be grammatically correct. "They" to refer to a singular person is not, and slashed pronouns are ideologically based rather than neutral. As a potentially green company, I will never used slashed pronouns, even if I was NOT trying to give the game an '80s feel. they/them is not only unacceptable writing, it's a profession of one's denial of basic biological facts.
Exactly, it's the bending of the knee to worship at the cults altar. I only kneel before God and my King (The Spanish one).
There seems to be a bit of a US English v UK English difference. I think in UK it's always been pretty normal to use they for singular person of unknown gender. I think this is very different from attempting to use they for a singular person of known gender. I remember trying to work out how to write a sentence on the OGL 1.1 leak referring to Linda Codega as 'they', as per woke demands. It came out incomprehensible gibberish.
Quote from: S'mon on January 21, 2023, 02:30:56 AM
There seems to be a bit of a US English v UK English difference. I think in UK it's always been pretty normal to use they for singular person of unknown gender. I think this is very different from attempting to use they for a singular person of known gender.
Thanks, S'mon. The topic from the original post is use within the Basic Fantasy RPG for persons of unknown gender. I gave a real example before from the lite BFRPG rules:
When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.which will presumably be changed to:
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.I think the bottom reads fine in US English, just as well as in UK English.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 08:04:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2023, 07:00:02 PM
The rule of gender-neutral "he" has been pushed by English teachers, but singular "they" has always persisted in conversational English. Native speakers reading the examples above don't see it as a flaw.
Language HAS TO be prescriptive, otherwise words have no meaning and we can't understand each other. It's why there's a Spanish Academy that says when words can go into the dictionary, not sure if english has the same.
No, English doesn't have a language academy. Many governments like Spain have language academies to try to enforce their official version of the language, but those aren't necessary. Also, there are many Spanish-speaking countries where the language is spoken differently than Spaniards. Many but not all of these joined into an association in 1951, the ASALE. Neither the UK or the US has ever had a government language academy, and there are many regional differences between speech in Canada, Australia, US, UK, etc.
Language always has rules, but they can be formed by usage rather than imposed by the government. There are a number of supposed rules taught by English teachers that aren't actually followed even by educated people, and insisting on them confuses rather than simplifies. Here's an article on it as an example:
https://linguisticsgirl.com/prescriptive-grammar-rules/
As S'mon said, using "they" for a person of unknown gender has always been normal for English, and people have always said it as well as popular authors writing it. There are some teacher who insist that it isn't correct, but it's similar to insisting that "10 items or less" is incorrect.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 08:04:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2023, 07:00:02 PM
In historical practice, "he" was often used for predominantly-male (but sometimes female) positions like doctors, lawyers, or police -- but it was never used for predominantly-female (but sometimes male) positions like nurses, kindergarten teachers, or single caregivers. Hence, it was never really gender neutral.
No shit Sherlock!? Are you telling me that when speaking of people on a male dominated field people used he and if it was a female dominated field they used she? Well who da thunk it!
That's exactly my point. Using "he" implies male, while using "she" implies female. This is in contradiction to the prescriptivist claim that "he" is the correct gender-neutral pronoun to use, which works as a gender-neutral term without implying that the person is male.
Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2023, 03:24:15 AM
Quote from: S'mon on January 21, 2023, 02:30:56 AM
There seems to be a bit of a US English v UK English difference. I think in UK it's always been pretty normal to use they for singular person of unknown gender. I think this is very different from attempting to use they for a singular person of known gender.
Thanks, S'mon. The topic from the original post is use within the Basic Fantasy RPG for persons of unknown gender. I gave a real example before from the lite BFRPG rules:
When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.
which will presumably be changed to:
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.
I think the bottom reads fine in US English, just as well as in UK English.
It reads ok to me in UK English.
When talking about a Corporation taking action, I'd tend to use 'they' and 'their' likewise, although the Corporations are singular entities, rather than 'it' and 'its'.
My view on BFRPG is that clearly the author is on the left, and is annoyed by people on the right, and so chose to annoy them back. I think if he'd just used 'they' without comment, most people would not have noticed. My impression is that he's on the mainstream left, not the radical left. While I find the whole thing a bit silly and irritating, I have plenty of left wing friends and I'm well used to tolerating them! ;D And they generally tolerate me back! :o
Quote from: S'mon on January 21, 2023, 02:30:56 AM
There seems to be a bit of a US English v UK English difference. I think in UK it's always been pretty normal to use they for singular person of unknown gender. I think this is very different from attempting to use they for a singular person of known gender. I remember trying to work out how to write a sentence on the OGL 1.1 leak referring to Linda Codega as 'they', as per woke demands. It came out incomprehensible gibberish.
It isn't that either. It's just elitist vs populist. If you're uneducated or illiterate, you would use they. Only the educated would use he, and then only a) if you wanted to be an asshole or b) if you were lower class and didn't want a particular stylistic convention to give you away.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 20, 2023, 07:22:58 PM
"They" has been ruined by the freaks, marxists and those who bow to them.
Thus, just make your game read as you feel best gets across what you are trying to say using your own authorial voice. Proper grammar is less important than the text being clear and flavored by your voice.
This is absolutely true, and it makes it somewhat annoying to correctly use singular they and have people think you've gone woke. But I'm certainly not going to switch to the abomination that is gender neutral he in protest. A native English speaker who uses gender neutral he is either stupid or spineless*. A native French speaker who uses gender neutral he can be forgiven, as to them it is perfectly natural and it wouldn't occur to them to question it.
*Unless they're writing for a publication with a style guide that mandates it.
QuoteI'm guessing you're fortunate enough to be straight. I am too, but I have too many friends who aren't so "fortunate" (not denigrating them by the use of that word, but pointing out the unfairness of the position) and I take their feelings seriously. Being kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.
And you have just made my mind up for me. Yes, I will be revising the pronoun use when the proofed document comes back to me.
This long argument over singular "they" is a distraction from the main issue. Singular "they" for referring to an indeterminate person isn't such a horrible crime. The disappointment is in Gonnerman's attitude and what it portends for the future.
The problem is that the people claiming that you must use the singular "they" in order to be "nice" are vicious, duplicitous, and cruel, and they don't actually believe in being nice. They have simply redefined "nice" to mean submitting to their ideological demands. So to be "nice" you must submit to them rewriting how the English language works (e.g. pronouns referring to some ephemeral "gender identity" instead of simply referring to sex as they always have). And to be "nice" you have to interpret all of fantasy literature and gaming under the assumption that fantasy monsters are allegories for real-world racial groups.
But "nice" does not mean that you have to let other people exist in the RPG space who disagree with you. You can publicly smear them as bigots and try and convince stores to deplatform them, and this somehow does not count as failing to be nice. And over in the real world, "nice" does not require you to let people like Jack Phillips and Ivan Provorov peacefully live their lives. Rather, you can (indeed, you should!) work to destroy their livelihood and lives if they politely decline to celebrate your every identity claim.
Chris Gonnerman either cannot see that these people are disingenuous and will never stop making demands of him in the name of "nice," or (and I don't want to believe this) he is rapidly becoming one of these totalitarians himself. I don't think he's a true believer just yet (the statement quoted above is quite clumsy, for one thing), and I had hoped his experience of someone trying to defame him for having pregnant orcs you might have to kill in one of his adventures would make him wary of this kind of thing.
He's going to have a choice to make in the future: be genuinely kind and tolerant and appeal to normal people, or embrace the grotesque parody of kindness and tolerance peddled by progressive totalitarians. And as of this week, it's not looking good.
In 2023 are there still people so naive as to believe that the woke activists are not morally dishonest, and simply want to foster an atmosphere of inclusion for all? The supply of comfortable, accommodating rubes must surely be diminishing at this point.
Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2023, 03:24:15 AM
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.
If they is really referring to a singular third person then lose should become loses.
When a character is injured, they loses hit points from their current total.
Quote from: DocJones on January 21, 2023, 09:56:28 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2023, 03:24:15 AM
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.
If they is really referring to a singular third person then lose should become loses.
When a character is injured, they loses hit points from their current total.
That's not typical usage, which you can probably hear if you're a native speaker. Singular "they" is like singular "you". The pronoun "you" takes the plural form of the verb, regardless of whether it is referring to a group or a single person. i.e. The following would be incorrect,
When you are injured, you loses hit points from your current total.The same is true of "they".
EDITED TO ADD: Like anything in English, there are variations and different answers. I'm just saying most modern and historic usage of singular "they" follows the same rule as "you".
Quote from: Plotinus on January 21, 2023, 01:01:06 PM
This long argument over singular "they" is a distraction from the main issue. Singular "they" for referring to an indeterminate person isn't such a horrible crime. The disappointment is in Gonnerman's attitude and what it portends for the future.
The problem is that the people claiming that you must use the singular "they" in order to be "nice" are vicious, duplicitous, and cruel, and they don't actually believe in being nice.
There are vicious and cruel people out in the world, including plenty of liberals. However, I don't see that manifested specifically in the BFRPG discussion of the topic. In the thread linked on the original post, singular they was suggested by MarkS_78, who said
Quote from: MarkS_78I was wondering, while all of these revisions for a new edition are being done, wouldn't it be a good idea to replace all of the many instances where the book refers to to the player or the GM using the phrase "his or her" with their?
I find that wording quite clunky, and I think that changing it would make the game feel much more welcoming and inclusive.
This is phrased as a polite request for consideration. He followed up with:
Quote from: MarkS_78Thank you for sharing your reasoning, it makes much more sens now.
As for convincing, I don't think I have more arguments so I will just expand on my previous ones:
As you know the term is clunky, It makes the book harder to read and quote at the table with this phrase.
And if it was just an artistic expression, an anachronism if you will, that would be perfectly fine, but...
It's just needlessly binary in it's meaning. I agree it was very inclusive for the time, but I don't think there is any need to specifically call out these two separate pronouns in such a clunky phrase where using one would be both more elegant and more inclusive.
As for the game being written to mimic games from the 80's, I think it already makes some changes, like removing THAC0, so a change of pronouns would not be a big one, while making the wording of the book easier to read, more elegant and more inclusive.
I think it was a fine way to phrase it at the time, but I think we now have language that's both more inclusive and at the same time more intuitive and handy. I personally know many people who use they/them pronouns, I also do if that matters, and think this would be a very good change and a great way to include more people.
Thank you for your consideration!
It seems to me that Gonnerman was amenable to the suggestion, and was not deceived or intimidated. I don't know MarkS_78. He might secretly be a vicious, duplicitous, and/or cruel person - but I don't see any sign of it here.
Quote from: DocJones on January 21, 2023, 09:56:28 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2023, 03:24:15 AM
When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.
If they is really referring to a singular third person then lose should become loses.
When a character is injured, they loses hit points from their current total.
This was the kind of thing that came up when I experimented with trying to write a sentence referring to Linda Codega as 'they'. Does she contain multitudes? If so, 'they lose' works. Or are 'they' pronoun people still singular individuals? In the latter case you swiftly get unreadable gibberish like 'they loses'.
Welcoming and inclusive? That's the bit people are taking issue with. It wasn't enough to cut wordcount, he had to specify say that too
Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2023, 02:50:53 AM
It seems to me that Gonnerman was amenable to the suggestion, and was not deceived or intimidated. I don't know MarkS_78. He might secretly be a vicious, duplicitous, and/or cruel person - but I don't see any sign of it here.
In fairness to me, I said that I didn't think Chris was a true believer (at least not yet), and I didn't mean to call
him vicious, duplicitous, and cruel. I always thought well of him before this incident. It's just that progressive totalitarians as a group are typically vicious, duplicitous, and cruel, and he's listening to them with little skepticism.
My problem with Chris's response, what makes it disturbing, is the snark and one-sidedness with which he responded to the guy who didn't want to make ideological changes to the text.
QuoteI'm guessing you're fortunate enough to be straight. I am too, but I have too many friends who aren't so "fortunate" (not denigrating them by the use of that word, but pointing out the unfairness of the position) and I take their feelings seriously. Being kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.
And you have just made my mind up for me. Yes, I will be revising the pronoun use when the proofed document comes back to me.
Chris says being "kind" is important, but he can't see that it is not
kind to his loyal volunteer collaborators to introduce ideological changes that not everyone agrees with 163 pages into the project! These people signed up to de-OGLify their favorite game, not to promote controversial sexual ideology (which, whether Chris would admit it or not, is what's imbedded in the idea that "they" is more inclusive than "he or she"). And yes, the person who asked for "they" was polite about it, but so was the person who opposed the change. But only the latter got sarcastically dismissed by Gonnerman.
Quote from: Plotinus on January 22, 2023, 09:01:07 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2023, 02:50:53 AM
It seems to me that Gonnerman was amenable to the suggestion, and was not deceived or intimidated. I don't know MarkS_78. He might secretly be a vicious, duplicitous, and/or cruel person - but I don't see any sign of it here.
In fairness to me, I said that I didn't think Chris was a true believer (at least not yet), and I didn't mean to call him vicious, duplicitous, and cruel. I always thought well of him before this incident. It's just that progressive totalitarians as a group are typically vicious, duplicitous, and cruel, and he's listening to them with little skepticism.
My problem with Chris's response, what makes it disturbing, is the snark and one-sidedness with which he responded to the guy who didn't want to make ideological changes to the text.
QuoteI'm guessing you're fortunate enough to be straight. I am too, but I have too many friends who aren't so "fortunate" (not denigrating them by the use of that word, but pointing out the unfairness of the position) and I take their feelings seriously. Being kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.
And you have just made my mind up for me. Yes, I will be revising the pronoun use when the proofed document comes back to me.
Chris says being "kind" is important, but he can't see that it is not kind to his loyal volunteer collaborators to introduce ideological changes that not everyone agrees with 163 pages into the project! These people signed up to de-OGLify their favorite game, not to promote controversial sexual ideology (which, whether Chris would admit it or not, is what's imbedded in the idea that "they" is more inclusive than "he or she"). And yes, the person who asked for "they" was polite about it, but so was the person who opposed the change. But only the latter got sarcastically dismissed by Gonnerman.
Off course Jhkim is gonna obfusctae and deviate the conversation.
Now, lets make some points:
No, the Sparkle Troll wasn't vicious, he was polite, because it was the FIRST time he asked for it and he got a very promissing answer.
We all have seen what happens when you tell them no. The Sparkle Trolls swarm in a frenzy of "niceness" to derstroy you, your life, reputation, family, friendships and livelihood.
Furthermore, a few comments after Gonnerman decalres he'll do it BECAUSE someone pointed (correctly) it was activism creeping in in a snarky response to a polite comment.
Why would the Sparkle Trolls become vicious, and cruel.?
The duplicity is assumed because the true aim is NEVER to be inclusive (since once they get control their first acctions are ALWAYS to exclude the untermench) as history has proven time and again.
TL;DR Your comment was perfect as it was Plotinus. Remember "Never apologize to the woke".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 22, 2023, 11:31:54 AM
No, the Sparkle Troll wasn't vicious, he was polite, because it was the FIRST time he asked for it and he got a very promissing answer.
We all have seen what happens when you tell them no. The Sparkle Trolls swarm in a frenzy of "niceness" to derstroy you, your life, reputation, family, friendships and livelihood.
I agree that there are brigades of online trolls. They have no interest in being nice, no belief in any ideology, and are simply looking to bully whomever appears weak to them. There was a group of trolls starting from Something Awful who targeted me and my family in 2008, because of my going to a feminist sci-fi convention. They posted personal information of various connections, harassing messages on social media, calling my workplace, and such. It sucked. I sympathize with anyone targeted by such groups. They are miserable people.
I understand that since 2008, such trolls have shifted more to targeting conservatives. I presume this is because they now perceive conservatives as easier targets. The trolls have no sincere belief in any progressive values, though.
It sucks that online trolls exist and attack people who vary from the norms. However, they aren't representative of wider populations. When I was harassed by trolls in 2008, I didn't think that they were representative of conservatives. They were just opportunistic assholes who wanted to bully.
--
In the case of the BFRPG discussion, I don't see any sign that MarkS_78 is such a troll or connected to them. He politely talked to Gonnerman, and Gonnerman made his decision. I don't see any sign that Gonnerman was intimidated by the possibility of trolls.
Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2023, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 22, 2023, 11:31:54 AM
No, the Sparkle Troll wasn't vicious, he was polite, because it was the FIRST time he asked for it and he got a very promissing answer.
We all have seen what happens when you tell them no. The Sparkle Trolls swarm in a frenzy of "niceness" to derstroy you, your life, reputation, family, friendships and livelihood.
I agree that there are brigades of online trolls. They have no interest in being nice, no belief in any ideology, and are simply looking to bully whomever appears weak to them. There was a group of trolls starting from Something Awful who targeted me and my family in 2008, because of my going to a feminist sci-fi convention. They posted personal information of various connections, harassing messages on social media, calling my workplace, and such. It sucked. I sympathize with anyone targeted by such groups. They are miserable people.
I understand that since 2008, such trolls have shifted more to targeting conservatives. I presume this is because they now perceive conservatives as easier targets. The trolls have no sincere belief in any progressive values, though.
It sucks that online trolls exist and attack people who vary from the norms. However, they aren't representative of wider populations. When I was harassed by trolls in 2008, I didn't think that they were representative of conservatives. They were just opportunistic assholes who wanted to bully.
--
In the case of the BFRPG discussion, I don't see any sign that MarkS_78 is such a troll or connected to them. He politely talked to Gonnerman, and Gonnerman made his decision. I don't see any sign that Gonnerman was intimidated by the possibility of trolls.
I'm sorry you got bullied and people did those horrible things, that kind of people should be sent to jail. But that won't get you a pass from comflating two very different things:
Online Troll: Someone who says things he doesn't neccesarily believe to get a rise from someone else.
Sparkle Troll: Someone who asks for changes that are not needed, spouts falsehoods (like waahmen and minorities were being shunned from playing TTRPS) with a cover of being nice and inclusive to infiltrate and gain controll of a company, hobby, etc in order to push progressive ideology. There's two results that can make happy the Sparkle Trolls, either total control or the destruction of that which resists their control.
Not because both share the Troll thing in their name they are the same, just like Catholics aren't the same as Protestants but both are Christians.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 22, 2023, 06:50:22 PM
I'm sorry you got bullied and people did those horrible things, that kind of people should be sent to jail. But that won't get you a pass from comflating two very different things:
Online Troll: Someone who says things he doesn't neccesarily believe to get a rise from someone else.
Sparkle Troll: Someone who asks for changes that are not needed, spouts falsehoods (like waahmen and minorities were being shunned from playing TTRPS) with a cover of being nice and inclusive to infiltrate and gain controll of a company, hobby, etc in order to push progressive ideology. There's two results that can make happy the Sparkle Trolls, either total control or the destruction of that which resists their control.
I don't feel that your description of online troll correctly describes the sort of people who were, say, calling my workplace to try to get me fired. (It didn't work, and I wasn't afraid of it - but that was what they were attempting.)
There is a spectrum of trolls from those who just sometimes post edgy things in forums -- to those who will harass, dox, and intimidate people to get their kicks. All of them are motivated by a feeling of power. They want control, and if someone refuses to be controlled, then they get angry and lash out at them. From my experience with the trolls I dealt with in 2008, they completely blew up when I didn't back down at their attempts at intimidation. They also feel more powerful in a gang or mob.
I'm fine with the descriptor of "sparkle troll" for the power-hungry, vicious people who just want to revel in ganging up on people to force submission - and use excuses like LGBT advocacy or other progressive values to do so.
I don't think that such people are anything more than a tiny segment of the population, though - less than 1%. The vast majority of people are biased towards their own politics and likely have some false beliefs, but mostly want to live their own lives.
Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2023, 08:09:06 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 22, 2023, 06:50:22 PM
I'm sorry you got bullied and people did those horrible things, that kind of people should be sent to jail. But that won't get you a pass from comflating two very different things:
Online Troll: Someone who says things he doesn't neccesarily believe to get a rise from someone else.
Sparkle Troll: Someone who asks for changes that are not needed, spouts falsehoods (like waahmen and minorities were being shunned from playing TTRPS) with a cover of being nice and inclusive to infiltrate and gain controll of a company, hobby, etc in order to push progressive ideology. There's two results that can make happy the Sparkle Trolls, either total control or the destruction of that which resists their control.
I don't feel that your description of online troll correctly describes the sort of people who were, say, calling my workplace to try to get me fired. (It didn't work, and I wasn't afraid of it - but that was what they were attempting.)
There is a spectrum of trolls from those who just sometimes post edgy things in forums -- to those who will harass, dox, and intimidate people to get their kicks. All of them are motivated by a feeling of power. They want control, and if someone refuses to be controlled, then they get angry and lash out at them. From my experience with the trolls I dealt with in 2008, they completely blew up when I didn't back down at their attempts at intimidation. They also feel more powerful in a gang or mob.
I'm fine with the descriptor of "sparkle troll" for the power-hungry, vicious people who just want to revel in ganging up on people to force submission - and use excuses like LGBT advocacy or other progressive values to do so.
I don't think that such people are anything more than a tiny segment of the population, though - less than 1%. The vast majority of people are biased towards their own politics and likely have some false beliefs, but mostly want to live their own lives.
That's because Internet Troll =/= the motherfuckers that were doing that to you, if anything they resemble more the Sparkle Troll in that they will escalate things to the real world over a silly online argument.
From the date floating around 8% od the USA population identify as progressives, that's a tiny minority, from that minority I have encountered a totall of 3 individuals (you {and maybe Trechiron?} included) who call themselves progressives AND aren't also Sparkle Trolls.
Anecdotal and all but that paints a very bleak picture of those who share your ideology.
You claim it's a tiny minority and that they are "No True Progressives"...
I'll tell you what I told the feminists who loved to claim the ones clamoring for the death/internment/castration/etc of all men weren't really feminists:
Then start fighthing them, on the twatter there's two accounts I follow, Gays against groomers and trans against groomers, they ARE fighthing those who ARE doing damage to the image of their community by claiming to belong to it.
Sadly, progressives are a lot more timid, coward or are really in favor of the totalitarians on their side so I don't see ANYONE fighthing them from your side.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 22, 2023, 08:21:17 PM
I'll tell you what I told the feminists who loved to claim the ones clamoring for the death/internment/castration/etc of all men weren't really feminists:
Then start fighthing them, on the twatter there's two accounts I follow, Gays against groomers and trans against groomers, they ARE fighthing those who ARE doing damage to the image of their community by claiming to belong to it.
I'll go over the sort of things I do to stop harassment and other action by sparkle trolls. But first, I'd ask. Have you been fighting anti-feminist trolls like the ones who harassed my family? What have you done to stop them? It seems only fair that if you ask me to fight the trolls who pose on my political side, that I should ask about how you've fought the trolls who pose on your side.
I don't expect that either of us can stop them. But we can take incremental action to lessen partisan extremism and tactics like doxxing, harassment, and libel. One is promoting Internet privacy and integrity, by support the EFF and similar organizations. Another is speaking up within our own communities for truth and accountability of claims rather than focusing outrage at the other side. Further would be promoting greater dialog with other viewpoints, like through the Braver Angels (https://braverangels.org/) organization, or in interfaith action, like having shared activities with the Mormon church for me as a UU.
Quote from: jhkim on January 23, 2023, 02:28:28 AM
I'll go over the sort of things I do to stop harassment and other action by sparkle trolls. But first, I'd ask. Have you been fighting anti-feminist trolls like the ones who harassed my family? What have you done to stop them? It seems only fair that if you ask me to fight the trolls who pose on my political side, that I should ask about how you've fought the trolls who pose on your side.
I think you're missing the key argument here:
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 22, 2023, 08:21:17 PM
From the date floating around 8% od the USA population identify as progressives, that's a tiny minority, from that minority I have encountered a totall of 3 individuals (you {and maybe Trechiron?} included) who call themselves progressives AND aren't also Sparkle Trolls.
Of the progressives I know IRL, only one is one I can actually have a conversation about politics with, with disagreement. Three more we just had to part ways without outright hostility, which is better than average. For the rest, they're downright hostile. And I grew up in a progressive environment, my entire family is progressive. Obviously I don't experience hostility from them because they place family above politics, but needing to be family not to experience hostility from progressives is a damn bad look for progressives as a whole.
Quote from: jhkim on January 23, 2023, 02:28:28 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 22, 2023, 08:21:17 PM
I'll tell you what I told the feminists who loved to claim the ones clamoring for the death/internment/castration/etc of all men weren't really feminists:
Then start fighthing them, on the twatter there's two accounts I follow, Gays against groomers and trans against groomers, they ARE fighthing those who ARE doing damage to the image of their community by claiming to belong to it.
I'll go over the sort of things I do to stop harassment and other action by sparkle trolls. But first, I'd ask. Have you been fighting anti-feminist trolls like the ones who harassed my family? What have you done to stop them? It seems only fair that if you ask me to fight the trolls who pose on my political side, that I should ask about how you've fought the trolls who pose on your side.
I don't expect that either of us can stop them. But we can take incremental action to lessen partisan extremism and tactics like doxxing, harassment, and libel. One is promoting Internet privacy and integrity, by support the EFF and similar organizations. Another is speaking up within our own communities for truth and accountability of claims rather than focusing outrage at the other side. Further would be promoting greater dialog with other viewpoints, like through the Braver Angels (https://braverangels.org/) organization, or in interfaith action, like having shared activities with the Mormon church for me as a UU.
Words have meaning, Internet Troll =/= motherfuckers who take stuff to the extreme of harassing people IRL.
Yes, fair is fair, at every point and everywhere I have encountered those who try and destroy people for political disagreements I have oppossed them to the full extent of my ability to do so, by reporting them to the police, baning them from groups and condemning such actions without caring in which political side the culprits are.
I don't expect that you or me can stop them either.
Now, when I asked the question it wasn't strictly directed at you, it was the royal you, meaning those who call themselves progressives, thought I had made it clear but well, looks like I failed.
The most telling reply to is "I'm guessing you're fortunate enough to be straight", when all of this non-binary nonsense has nothing to do with sexuality, but gender identity.
It's like, the throughline with a lot of this woke BS is Boomer/older Gen X liberals thinking this is equal to the gay rights movement and bending the knee, believing they're being inclusive, but theyre really just chumming the waters for blood suckers that will never be satisfied.
It's like half of western civilization all of a sudden started taking the Tumblr weirdos everybody was making fun of ten years ago seriously.
This is a tempest in a teacup. Gonnerman's game will never be a big hit. Not because of pronouns, but because Basic Fantasy Roleplaying sounds almost exactly like Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying, which is what I have been mistaking this game for since it came out in 2006, and it was only by a sheer lark that I listened to an interview with Chris Gonnerman on an OSR podcast.
The game is good. It's solid. But sadly it will always remain hidden behind a wall of obscurity because of a poor name choice.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 23, 2023, 07:32:10 PM
This is a tempest in a teacup. Gonnerman's game will never be a big hit. Not because of pronouns, but because Basic Fantasy Roleplaying sounds almost exactly like Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying, which is what I have been mistaking this game for since it came out in 2006, and it was only by a sheer lark that I listened to an interview with Chris Gonnerman on an OSR podcast.
The game is good. It's solid. But sadly it will always remain hidden behind a wall of obscurity because of a poor name choice.
It's actually well known and widely played, for the simple reason that it sells at-cost on Amazon. It actually seems to sell more to people not heavily involved in the RPG community, who have never heard of Basic Roleplaying.
Quote from: S'mon on January 24, 2023, 04:28:06 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 23, 2023, 07:32:10 PM
This is a tempest in a teacup. Gonnerman's game will never be a big hit. Not because of pronouns, but because Basic Fantasy Roleplaying sounds almost exactly like Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying, which is what I have been mistaking this game for since it came out in 2006, and it was only by a sheer lark that I listened to an interview with Chris Gonnerman on an OSR podcast.
The game is good. It's solid. But sadly it will always remain hidden behind a wall of obscurity because of a poor name choice.
It's actually well known and widely played, for the simple reason that it sells at-cost on Amazon. It actually seems to sell more to people not heavily involved in the RPG community, who have never heard of Basic Roleplaying.
It's a good game. I would definitely play it, if someone offered to run it. But is it widely played? Or is it widely downloaded (for free) from the internet?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 12:35:32 PM
Like the tin says, Gonnerman is changing the pronouns on his game, I mean it's his shit and he can do whatever and I would have exactly zero problem with it if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW it's just a matter of giving the woke an inch before they take control of your shit.
It's okay, the change will be in the 4ed that'll be under CC By SA which means someone could make Advanced Iron Age Fantasy and revert any wokeisms they manage to push into the game.
As for the proof?
It starts in page 162 or 163 but here's a link:
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620)
I abandoned Basic Fantasy years ago. I made a stupid joke on the Facebook group and Gonnerman along with all his mind-numbed followers jumped all over me, and refused to allow me to even apologize. Horrible people.
He had a good idea about the game. That does not make him a good person, nor his game something I will tolerate. I am saving my Basic Fantasy book for when the Sears catalogue runs out.
Quote from: squirewaldo on January 24, 2023, 09:09:07 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 12:35:32 PM
Like the tin says, Gonnerman is changing the pronouns on his game, I mean it's his shit and he can do whatever and I would have exactly zero problem with it if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW it's just a matter of giving the woke an inch before they take control of your shit.
It's okay, the change will be in the 4ed that'll be under CC By SA which means someone could make Advanced Iron Age Fantasy and revert any wokeisms they manage to push into the game.
As for the proof?
It starts in page 162 or 163 but here's a link:
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620)
I abandoned Basic Fantasy years ago. I made a stupid joke on the Facebook group and Gonnerman along with all his mind-numbed followers jumped all over me, and refused to allow me to even apologize. Horrible people.
He had a good idea about the game. That does not make him a good person, nor his game something I will tolerate. I am saving my Basic Fantasy book for when the Sears catalogue runs out.
He had a first mover advantage of sorts. There was C&C before, but for the people who thought it wasn't OS enough, BF hit that itch. He kept it free, and had good marketing saying 'do not buy this book', which of course endears him. It's a good example of how to market a game and get it played. But he's not selling it based on its merits.
Chris has always been left wing. Bending the knee to crazies on a forum is bad news. He should have stayed out of politics when it comes to his game.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on January 23, 2023, 06:54:44 PM
It's like half of western civilization all of a sudden started taking the Tumblr weirdos everybody was making fun of ten years ago seriously.
I've said this for years.
The problem started when we started taking insane people seriously.
"What if oxygen stopped liking humans and started liking dogs?"
"Oh my GOD! I better buy a dog now or I'll suffocate!"
This is civilization now.
Quote from: migo on January 24, 2023, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on January 24, 2023, 09:09:07 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 12:35:32 PM
Like the tin says, Gonnerman is changing the pronouns on his game, I mean it's his shit and he can do whatever and I would have exactly zero problem with it if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW it's just a matter of giving the woke an inch before they take control of your shit.
It's okay, the change will be in the 4ed that'll be under CC By SA which means someone could make Advanced Iron Age Fantasy and revert any wokeisms they manage to push into the game.
As for the proof?
It starts in page 162 or 163 but here's a link:
https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620 (https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&sid=7a682a3b8d698e0a8a1f47792ada3735&start=1620)
I abandoned Basic Fantasy years ago. I made a stupid joke on the Facebook group and Gonnerman along with all his mind-numbed followers jumped all over me, and refused to allow me to even apologize. Horrible people.
He had a good idea about the game. That does not make him a good person, nor his game something I will tolerate. I am saving my Basic Fantasy book for when the Sears catalogue runs out.
He had a first mover advantage of sorts. There was C&C before, but for the people who thought it wasn't OS enough, BF hit that itch. He kept it free, and had good marketing saying 'do not buy this book', which of course endears him. It's a good example of how to market a game and get it played. But he's not selling it based on its merits.
You can't really have much impact upon the creator of a product, who is already giving it away for free.