How weird, thought my professors in México and my textbooks were wrong, turns out Gonnerman was ALSO taught that They/Them can never be singular...

Boy some people here will have to eat crow.

https://basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=776&start=1640

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:21:27 AM
How weird, thought my professors in México and my textbooks were wrong, turns out Gonnerman was ALSO taught that They/Them can never be singular...

Boy some people here will have to eat crow.

What are you citing here? I have heard some teachers declare such a rule, but it goes against actual usage by talented authors. Some examples:

Jane Austen, Emma: "Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?"

Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey: "if I do not know any body, it is impossible for me to talk to them; and, besides, I do not want to talk to anybody."

Mark Twain, A Tramp Abroad: "I always ask everybody what ship they came over in."

Lewis Carroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass: "But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?"

Winston Churchill, The Story of the Malakand Field Force: "Every one realised afterwards how obvious this was and wondered they had not thought of it before."

George Eliot, Middlemarch: "The fact is, I never loved any one well enough to put myself into a noose for them."

C.S. Lewis, Voyage of the Dawn Treader: "Still, she kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes."

So classic writers throughout the 19th and 20th century has lots of examples of singular they.

Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2023, 03:00:29 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:21:27 AM
How weird, thought my professors in México and my textbooks were wrong, turns out Gonnerman was ALSO taught that They/Them can never be singular...

Boy some people here will have to eat crow.

What are you citing here? I have heard some teachers declare such a rule, but it goes against actual usage by talented authors. Some examples:

Jane Austen, Emma: "Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?"

Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey: "if I do not know any body, it is impossible for me to talk to them; and, besides, I do not want to talk to anybody."

Mark Twain, A Tramp Abroad: "I always ask everybody what ship they came over in."

Lewis Carroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass: "But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?"

Winston Churchill, The Story of the Malakand Field Force: "Every one realised afterwards how obvious this was and wondered they had not thought of it before."

George Eliot, Middlemarch: "The fact is, I never loved any one well enough to put myself into a noose for them."

C.S. Lewis, Voyage of the Dawn Treader: "Still, she kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes."

So classic writers throughout the 19th and 20th century has lots of examples of singular they.

Look! Writers use a long not used by anyone else form of language! This disproves the evolution of the same!

Yes, writers in spanish speaking countries also sometimes use obscure words or forms of words long fallen in disuse by the plebs.

Doesn't mean we no longer say mesmamente that once was gramatically correct and now we say Asi mismo. But some writer could and have used it in their writtings because snob assholes tend to do such ostentacious things.

Unless of course you're going to assert that the professors of TWO countries are wrong because ostentacious asshole uses X.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM

Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?

Unless you're talking about a play example?

Let's see what's being changed:

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....

Changed to

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.

I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.

It isn't any clearer with he, he or she, or you. There's only one antecedent.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:53:44 PM


Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.

This isn't true, particularly since you want to bring up TTRPGS. She, along with he, as a gender neutral pronoun is a characteristic of TTRPGs using one to refer to the GM and the other to refer to the player. It is correctly declared in the beginning, so there are no surprises, and it aids in clarity by keeping the text from getting cumbersome.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 03:44:28 AM

Look! Writers use a long not used by anyone else form of language! This disproves the evolution of the same!

Yes, writers in spanish speaking countries also sometimes use obscure words or forms of words long fallen in disuse by the plebs.

This is also not true. Use of singular they became an issue in style guides exactly because the common people were using it, if everyone were using the gender neutral he (which why should they, it's clearly stupid, and nobody with common sense would buy into it), it wouldn't have been a point of contention.

Quote from: JeremyR on January 20, 2023, 12:06:18 AM
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet.  But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.

If I'm not mistaken, the pronoun "themself" entered the Webster dictionary in 2019.
Previously "themselves" was the correct use. 
There's also some commentary that it was used in the 14th century.

Quote from: DocJones on January 20, 2023, 11:25:11 AM

Quote from: JeremyR on January 20, 2023, 12:06:18 AM
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet.  But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.

If I'm not mistaken, the pronoun "themself" entered the Webster dictionary in 2019.
Previously "themselves" was the correct use. 
There's also some commentary that it was used in the 14th century.

As a substitute for Himself or Herself it's still not 2nd person. You/Your and Thou/Thy (and plural Ye/Your) are the only valid second person pronouns in English... and only You/Your is not considered archaic.

That said, for a particularly thematic rpg, going with Thee/Thy and Ye/Your in Thy rules might be fun.

I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 2023, 11:43:00 AM

Quote from: DocJones on January 20, 2023, 11:25:11 AM

Quote from: JeremyR on January 20, 2023, 12:06:18 AM
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet.  But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.

If I'm not mistaken, the pronoun "themself" entered the Webster dictionary in 2019.
Previously "themselves" was the correct use. 
There's also some commentary that it was used in the 14th century.

As a substitute for Himself or Herself it's still not 2nd person. You/Your and Thou/Thy (and plural Ye/Your) are the only valid second person pronouns in English... and only You/Your is not considered archaic.

That said, for a particularly thematic rpg, going with Thee/Thy and Ye/Your in Thy rules might be fun.

Right. Technically themselves, yourself, yourselves, etc are reflexive pronoun, which are useful in writing.
The following is a fun read.  There are more than 100 pronouns. Here's the full list...

Quote from: migo on January 20, 2023, 04:32:13 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM

Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?

Unless you're talking about a play example?

Let's see what's being changed:

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....

Changed to

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.

I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.

It isn't any clearer with he, he or she, or you. There's only one antecedent.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:53:44 PM


Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.

This isn't true, particularly since you want to bring up TTRPGS. She, along with he, as a gender neutral pronoun is a characteristic of TTRPGs using one to refer to the GM and the other to refer to the player. It is correctly declared in the beginning, so there are no surprises, and it aids in clarity by keeping the text from getting cumbersome.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 03:44:28 AM

Look! Writers use a long not used by anyone else form of language! This disproves the evolution of the same!

Yes, writers in spanish speaking countries also sometimes use obscure words or forms of words long fallen in disuse by the plebs.

This is also not true. Use of singular they became an issue in style guides exactly because the common people were using it, if everyone were using the gender neutral he (which why should they, it's clearly stupid, and nobody with common sense would buy into it), it wouldn't have been a point of contention.

If I tell you that to be inclusive the GM will be referred as she and the player as he it doesn't make the SHE pronoun gender neutral, it makes me a pussy.

Yes, SOME people started using the singular they to feel like the most special of snowflakes. Now, for a neologism or to resurrect an archaic idiom it needs to be in use by most for a long period of time.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.

This is the way.

I'm just going to use "he" because it's the most correct pronoun.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:48:42 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.

This is the way.

Whenever anyone tells you that you must do x and y in an elf game always do the opposite. Fook 'em.

Quote from: Zelen on January 20, 2023, 12:52:15 PM
I'm just going to use "he" because it's the most correct pronoun.

Triggering the woke and driving them to Reeeeeeeeeeeee is an added benefit.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 01:03:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:48:42 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.

This is the way.

Whenever anyone tells you that you must do x and y in an elf game always do the opposite. Fook 'em.

Exactly.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 01:07:06 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 01:03:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:48:42 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 20, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
I'm just going to use he just to piss people off.

This is the way.

Whenever anyone tells you that you must do x and y in an elf game always do the opposite. Fook 'em.

Exactly.

Naw, sometimes do the opposite, sometimes do the same, sometimes go off into left field.  Try to always do what you would have done anyway, had they not said anything.  On the negative side, you'll have instance where they think you are caving.  To offset that, though, when you do go opposite, the results are spectacular.