Quote from: Chris24601 on January 19, 2023, 05:19:57 PM

Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.

Prior to 2020, formal writing in English was to use "he" for indeterminate third-person singular. "They" was in use, but was considered informal or colloquial. Only with the rise of woke in the last two years has the writing standard been changed.

In professional writing such as RPGs, the writing standard has been changing for a long time, not just the last two years. I agree with GeekyBugle below, at least in terms of the facts.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 06:14:27 PM
I find it funny that you think the woke started when? late 2010s? You're wrong, by 2012 they were so ingrained in the atheist movement to launch Atheism+.

Well before that they had co-opted the social "sciences".

The reason He and She were used in AD&D it's because there already were feminists infiltrated in TSR.

It just wasn't called the Woke, but it was the same brand of social marxism that infects the TTRPG hobby and every other nerd/geek space.

I agree here that in the 1970s, use of singular "he" was less often used due to feminist influence, often replaced with "he or she" as was used in AD&D.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 08:24:19 PM

Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Unclear antecedents happen if you're using he or she. Avoiding the use of they doesn't help, and using 'he' as a gender neutral singular most certainly doesn't.

a pronoun-antecedent error is more likely to occur with a third-person, indefinite pronoun, than it is with a first-person singular pronoun

I think there's a miscommunication here. migo was talking about use of gender-neutral "he", not the first-person singular "I". As an example of what migo is talking about,

"Bill waved at someone on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, they were gone."

versus the same using gender-neutral "he".

"Bill waved at someone on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, he was gone."

In the latter, it's unclear who was gone - Bill or the gender-unspecified someone. This is a case where having a gender-neutral that is different than the masculine helps. On the other hand, singular "they" also has its unclear cases, like:

"Someone waved at a group on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, they were gone."

I'm not sure how to estimate how common the different cases are. I'm also not sure if most specific is always the best way to determine the pronouns to use.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 08:24:19 PM
but I agree that simply using "he" everywhere may not be a good option either if it creates confusion. This is why I avoid the use of pronouns when I can.

That's reasonable, but also, most cases of unclear usage are obvious and can be avoided, while still using pronouns to simplify.

As BFRPG usually has quite a few translations done for it, should be amusing to see how their translators try to shoehorn in these changes.  With a language like French that already has its own set of grammar rules, this terminology musical chairs just doesn't fly.

Is that hidden repression that needs to be expunged as well, or I guess if it can't be read, it doesn't matter really?  With everything gendered it might cause someone an outrage heart attack or something.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 08:43:05 PM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 08:24:19 PM

Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Unclear antecedents happen if you're using he or she. Avoiding the use of they doesn't help, and using 'he' as a gender neutral singular most certainly doesn't.

a pronoun-antecedent error is more likely to occur with a third-person, indefinite pronoun, than it is with a first-person singular pronoun

I think there's a miscommunication here. migo was talking about use of gender-neutral "he", not the first-person singular "I". As an example of what migo is talking about,

"Bill waved at someone on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, they were gone."

versus the same using gender-neutral "he".

"Bill waved at someone on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, he was gone."

In the latter, it's unclear who was gone - Bill or the gender-unspecified someone. This is a case where having a gender-neutral that is different than the masculine helps. On the other hand, singular "they" also has its unclear cases, like:

"Someone waved at a group on the opposite platform, but after the train passed, they were gone."

I'm not sure how to estimate how common the different cases are. I'm also not sure if most specific is always the best way to determine the pronouns to use.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 08:24:19 PM
but I agree that simply using "he" everywhere may not be a good option either if it creates confusion. This is why I avoid the use of pronouns when I can.

That's reasonable, but also, most cases of unclear usage are obvious and can be avoided, while still using pronouns to simplify.

Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?

Unless you're talking about a play example?

Let's see what's being changed:

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....

Changed to

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.

I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?

Unless you're talking about a play example?

Let's see what's being changed:

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....

Changed to

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.

I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.

Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:

When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.

This will presumably be changed to:

When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.

There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:26:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?

Unless you're talking about a play example?

Let's see what's being changed:

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....

Changed to

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.

I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.

Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:

When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.

This will presumably be changed to:

When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.

There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.

Sure, iy you were using He or She you're writting less after the change and flows better, it would also flow better if you droped one of the pronouns, keep whichever you want, it flows better and it won't cause confussion ever.

Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.

Or change your redaction to use You. "When your character is injured, you lose hit points from your current total.", perfectly, clear, perfectly gender neutral, inclusive, yadda, yadda.

But it's never changed to You, it's always they, because it has to be, it has to force you to participate and bend the knee to the cult.

Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM

QuoteI'm guessing you're fortunate enough to be straight. I am too, but I have too many friends who aren't so "fortunate" (not denigrating them by the use of that word, but pointing out the unfairness of the position) and I take their feelings seriously. Being kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.

That's identity politics, and there's never anything good about it. It's at best neutral if he isn't outright hostile to non-progressives.

This

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
in the 14th century, or whenever, the use of "they", as an indeterminate pronoun, was almost always limited to a collective pronoun (plural) when denoting combined action: "The army approached the city, and before they reached the walls, they dismounted. When confronted with the insults from the men on the walls, they responded with one voice ..." (there are some exceptions)

Hell. they could barely speak English in the 14th century.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:26:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?

Unless you're talking about a play example?

Let's see what's being changed:

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....

Changed to

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.

I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.

Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:

When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.

This will presumably be changed to:

When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.

There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.

I am rushing out some unfinished stuff I've almost finished to beat the deadline of when the 1.0a gets revoked and  I've settled on

"When a character is injured, the character loses hit points from the character's current total."

It's cumbersome but it's clear and I can't see how anyone can get offended either way.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:53:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:26:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?

Unless you're talking about a play example?

Let's see what's being changed:

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....

Changed to

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.

I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.

Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:

When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.

This will presumably be changed to:

When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.

There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.

Sure, iy you were using He or She you're writting less after the change and flows better, it would also flow better if you droped one of the pronouns, keep whichever you want, it flows better and it won't cause confussion ever.

Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.

Or change your redaction to use You. "When your character is injured, you lose hit points from your current total.", perfectly, clear, perfectly gender neutral, inclusive, yadda, yadda.

But it's never changed to You, it's always they, because it has to be, it has to force you to participate and bend the knee to the cult.

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet.  But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.

Quote from: JeremyR on January 20, 2023, 12:06:18 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:53:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:26:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 09:09:35 PM
Except those examples hardly apply to a TTRPG do they?

Unless you're talking about a play example?

Let's see what's being changed:

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 he can....

Changed to

When a/the warrior gets to level 5 they can...

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the new BFRPG since it hasn't been released to the public yet but we all know that's what's being asked to be changed.

I don't see how can anyone argue that using they makes things more clear to understand there, it's much clearer with he or she; or with a different text even you.

Sure, I'd agree. My examples were a side point addressing MerrillWeathermay's suggestions about singular "they" in general. In this case, singular "they" isn't any clearer than "he or she". However, "he or she" can be cumbersome to read. Here's a real example. From page 4 of the current lite rules:

When a character is injured, he or she loses hit points from his or her current total.

This will presumably be changed to:

When a character is injured, they lose hit points from their current total.

There's no improvement in clarity, but for me, it flows a little better.

Sure, iy you were using He or She you're writting less after the change and flows better, it would also flow better if you droped one of the pronouns, keep whichever you want, it flows better and it won't cause confussion ever.

Now, she has never been used as the gender neutral pronoun, so, if you have to use a pronoun use he.

Or change your redaction to use You. "When your character is injured, you lose hit points from your current total.", perfectly, clear, perfectly gender neutral, inclusive, yadda, yadda.

But it's never changed to You, it's always they, because it has to be, it has to force you to participate and bend the knee to the cult.

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen custom 2nd person pronouns yet.  But still, the trouble with your method is that it doesn't differentiate because the player and the character.

I assume you're speaking of the using the pronoun YOU, yes, that's the problem, therefore I'm sticking to He.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:40:50 PMAnd that's the correct answer to the Sparkle Trolls ALWAYS.

Keep posting like that and you'll have to change your username to Jalapeno Shark!

QuoteBeing kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.

Fuck "kindness".

The modern definition of "kindness" is weak sauce bullshit (at best) and mostly involves bending the knee to degeneracy, mental illness and delusions.

..and "Retro Fantasy RPG" is a better title than "Basic Fantasy".

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 20, 2023, 12:33:27 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 01:40:50 PMAnd that's the correct answer to the Sparkle Trolls ALWAYS.

Keep posting like that and you'll have to change your username to Jalapeno Shark!

Not unless I start saying they need to bathe in napalm.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 20, 2023, 12:40:48 AM

QuoteBeing kind is one of the most important things a human can do for another human.

Fuck "kindness".

The modern definition of "kindness" is weak sauce bullshit (at best) and mostly involves bending the knee to degeneracy, mental illness and delusions.

..and "Retro Fantasy RPG" is a better title than "Basic Fantasy".

Thanks, wait till you see what I have planed, and I will admit it's just as much to fuck with Gonnerman and his leftard croonies as because I think it would be cool. Some of the changes have shit to do with him but it's stuff I think will be a better RPG.