Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 05:26:48 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 19, 2023, 05:19:57 PM

Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.

Prior to 2020, formal writing in English was to use "he" for indeterminate third-person singular. "They" was in use, but was considered informal or colloquial. Only with the rise of woke in the last two years has the writing standard been changed.

Singular they has been in use in English going back to the 14th century. That pre-dates Shakespeare, and Shakespeare himself - the father of modern English - used singular they. The people complaining about it have never been right. And aside from that, using 'he' in place of 'they' for indeterminate gender is just stupid. It's illogical. Also, generally ignorant - if you really object to the use of singular they, you should be like a Quaker and stop using singular you.

Singular they for someone of unknown sex goes back to the 14th century. They for someone of known sex is something new that I doubt goes back to the last century.

Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 05:29:59 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 19, 2023, 05:17:24 PM

Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 04:59:23 PM
Replacing 'he or she' with 'they' is a good change. It's the right pronoun to use when the gender is indeterminate (not 'he'), unless you're distinguishing between GM and player using he for one and she for the other.

"He" is literally "gender neutral" when you don't know the sex of a subject...where the fuck did you learn English?

It is not. English is a language that uses natural gender and not grammatical gender. It would be acceptable to use in French or German depending on what the antecedent noun is, but not in English. If you want to be charitable to the people claiming that 'he' is gender neutral, they're confusing French, which collapsed the neutral form in with the masculine (which is why there are more masculine nouns in French than feminine), and thus uses 'il' in a gender neutral fashion, with English. English never got rid of the neutral form, so there has never been a justification to follow suit with French.

How many TTRPG's from before the woke can you find that use they as singular?

Languages evolve, the fact that something was one way in the 14th century doesn't mean it has remained the same across the centuries.

So, at some point in time He became the gender neutral form and the singular they fell out of use. Until the woke came along and started reeing.

So, my games are written in gramatically correct English as per the teachings of my professors. The woke can Reeeeeeeeeeee all they want.

Can't wait for this to devolve into more pure stupidity that gives the fucking SJWs ammunition to continue to dilute language to the point it's purely retarded. Have fun with your forum sliding, jackasses.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 19, 2023, 05:44:58 PM
How many TTRPG's from before the woke can you find that use they as singular?

No clue, I also don't care, because TTRPGS aren't relevant except for Gonnerman's justification for using 'he or she' because that was the style in AD&D. But when we're talking about what is correct English, nobody is going to look to a TTRPG to justify either side.

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Languages evolve, the fact that something was one way in the 14th century doesn't mean it has remained the same across the centuries.

It doesn't, but singular they has remained the same across the centuries.

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So, at some point in time He became the gender neutral form and the singular they fell out of use. Until the woke came along and started reeing.

Singular they never fell out of use. Singular he was suggested and introduced in the 18th century, and some people decided to follow that boneheaded idea, but it never replaced singular they.

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So, my games are written in gramatically correct English as per the teachings of my professors. The woke can Reeeeeeeeeeee all they want.

This is what Geoffrey Pullum, co-author of the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, had to say on the topic in 2006 - well before it became a political hot topic:

QuoteBy all means, avoid using they with singular antecedents in your own writing and speaking if you feel you cannot bear it. Language Log is not here to tell you how to write or speak. But don't try to tell us that it's grammatically incorrect. Because when a construction is clearly present several times in Shakespeare's rightly admired plays and poems, and occurs in the carefully prepared published work of just about all major writers down the centuries, and is systematically present in the unreflecting conversational usage of just about everyone including Sean Lennon, then the claim that it is ungrammatical begins to look utterly unsustainable to us here at Language Log Plaza. This use of they isn't ungrammatical, it isn't a mistake, it's a feature of ordinary English syntax that for some reason attracts the ire of particularly puristic pusillanimous pontificators, and we don't buy what they're selling.

Do what you like, but you're wrong, and so are your professors.

I find it funny that you think the woke started when? late 2010s? You're wrong, by 2012 they were so ingrained in the atheist movement to launch Atheism+.

Well before that they had co-opted the social "sciences".

The reason He and She were used in AD&D it's because there already were feminists infiltrated in TSR.

It just wasn't called the Woke, but it was the same brand of social marxism that infects the TTRPG hobby and every other nerd/geek space.

I just use Spivak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun

Gonnerman has always been left-wing.  His personal Facebook page has numerous left-wing political posts.  He just never before let woke garbage creep into the actual Basic Fantasy products.  But I had a hunch that he wouldn't always stay neutral.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 19, 2023, 06:18:52 PM
I just use Spivak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun

And second-person with the occasional royal "we" when referring to myself as the author in the text (ex. In an explanatory sidebar "we designed this element to allow you...") avoids all these headaches.

It's also the grammatically correct form for addressing an audience, like the readers of a rulebook (the "royal we" isn't, but with all the playtester feedback that shaped the end result, I almost feel that I should be using first person plural anyway and saying its a "royal we" both splits the difference and is mildly amusing).

Whatever; it will always be "Boring Fantasy Roleplaying" to me.  One of the weakest products to come out of the OSR.  The main (only) selling point was the price.

Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...

Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.

Example:

The knight and her squire approached the gates, where they saw some soldiers above on the ramparts. They threw open the gates, and rode into the city.

Who did? The knight? Her squire? The soldiers?

or

"I saw my friend sitting with a group of people at a table in the tavern. I approached, and they said 'hi John'"

who did? Your friend, the group? Someone in the group?

in the 14th century, or whenever, the use of "they", as an indeterminate pronoun, was almost always limited to a collective pronoun (plural) when denoting combined action: "The army approached the city, and before they reached the walls, they dismounted. When confronted with the insults from the men on the walls, they responded with one voice ..." (there are some exceptions)

Try to avoid pronoun use altogether, and use passive voice in some cases (the gates were thrown open). Never use a third person, indefinite pronoun, when the subject has clear gender. If you want to avoid "his or her" use "one" (one can choose any faction).

We can argue about the evolution and parameters of grammar all day, but this is about clarity and style. I am not going to read some semi-incomprehensible shit involving neologisms and pronoun-misuse

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...

Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.

Example:

The knight and her squire approached the gates, where they saw some soldiers above on the ramparts. They threw open the gates, and rode into the city.

Who did? The knight? Her squire? The soldiers?

or

"I saw my friend sitting with a group of people at a table in the tavern. I approached, and they said 'hi John'"

who did? Your friend, the group? Someone in the group?

in the 14th century, or whenever, the use of "they", as an indeterminate pronoun, was almost always limited to a collective pronoun (plural) when denoting combined action: "The army approached the city, and before they reached the walls, they dismounted. When confronted with the insults from the men on the walls, they responded with one voice ..." (there are some exceptions)

Try to avoid pronoun use altogether, and use passive voice in some cases (the gates were thrown open). Never use a third person, indefinite pronoun, when the subject has clear gender. If you want to avoid "his or her" use "one" (one can choose any faction).

We can argue about the evolution and parameters of grammar all day, but this is about clarity and style. I am not going to read some semi-incomprehensible shit involving neologisms and pronoun-misuse

Truth is here.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...

Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.

Example:

The knight and her squire approached the gates, where they saw some soldiers above on the ramparts. They threw open the gates, and rode into the city.

Who did? The knight? Her squire? The soldiers?

or

"I saw my friend sitting with a group of people at a table in the tavern. I approached, and they said 'hi John'"

who did? Your friend, the group? Someone in the group?

in the 14th century, or whenever, the use of "they", as an indeterminate pronoun, was almost always limited to a collective pronoun (plural) when denoting combined action: "The army approached the city, and before they reached the walls, they dismounted. When confronted with the insults from the men on the walls, they responded with one voice ..." (there are some exceptions)

Try to avoid pronoun use altogether, and use passive voice in some cases (the gates were thrown open). Never use a third person, indefinite pronoun, when the subject has clear gender. If you want to avoid "his or her" use "one" (one can choose any faction).

We can argue about the evolution and parameters of grammar all day, but this is about clarity and style. I am not going to read some semi-incomprehensible shit involving neologisms and pronoun-misuse

This must be why my textbooks only listed:

I
You
He
She

It

We
You
They

But somehow the textbooks were wrong because 14th century.

If you can replace pronouns in your writing with non-pronouns, then do that whenever possible. Pronouns serve no useful purpose, not anymore at least, and many languages do just fine without them.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...

Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.

Unclear antecedents happen if you're using he or she. Avoiding the use of they doesn't help, and using 'he' as a gender neutral singular most certainly doesn't.

Quote from: migo on January 19, 2023, 07:50:33 PM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 19, 2023, 07:18:21 PM
Former stylistics and rhetoric teacher here ...

Using "they" as a third-person, indefinite singular should be avoided, as it can lead to pronoun-antecedent errors in your writing. This is especially true if we accept that "they" can be used as a singular for someone of unclear gender.

Unclear antecedents happen if you're using he or she. Avoiding the use of they doesn't help, and using 'he' as a gender neutral singular most certainly doesn't.

a pronoun-antecedent error is more likely to occur with a third-person, indefinite pronoun, than it is with a first-person singular pronoun

but I agree that simply using "he" everywhere may not be a good option either if it creates confusion. This is why I avoid the use of pronouns when I can.