Quote from: Omega;1056160er... In BTS your average PC will have around 13 HP (3d6+1d4) and on average 7 SDC without any training. A Magnum does 6d6 damage, (not sure what it was in the original. Probably 4-6d6) averaging 21 damage. Thats going to blow right through the average characters SDC and chunk off half their HP if doing 4d6 and all of it if 6d6. so yeah it can potentially drop a person in one shot. But just like the real thing it might not due to whatever factors.

The real problem is how SDC and HP are described while in gameplay SDC seems to act more like D&D HP. mostly stamina/dodging/luck that gets depleted and then the real meat of the character is the HP.

Back in first edition BTS, the only .44 magnum was in a supplement, and it did 5d6 (then they did 4d6 for a while) and average damage with 5d6 is 15, 6d6 raises that to 18, and most people have 21 HP as you point out.  So the average person can take a 44 slug and survive it.  Law of Averages says... Huhn?

My point stands.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056163Back in first edition BTS, the only .44 magnum was in a supplement, and it did 5d6 (then they did 4d6 for a while) and average damage with 5d6 is 15, 6d6 raises that to 18, and most people have 21 HP as you point out.  So the average person can take a 44 slug and survive it.  Law of Averages says... Huhn?

My point stands.

Not quite. But I dit mix up the systems.

In the original BTS a PC has 3d6 HP +1d4 more per level. Non-coms have 2d6 SDC. Hence an average of 13 HP and 7 SDC. In the original there wasnt a Magnum but all the equivalents were in the 4d6 range. so average of 14. So sorry to burst your bubble but on average yes a magnum IS going to fuck someone up and if they get hit a second time then they are well into negative HP and will die in about 7 hours if not treated.

New BTS lists the magnum as 6d6 damage. The new version though gives the PCs 1d10+12 SDC, but now HP is PE+1d6. But a new (optional) mechanic of blood loss when the character is down to 1/2 HP. They start losing 1 HP every 4 rounds.

I am not keen on the bump up of of SDC. Thats an average of 17 then add on the new average HP of 14. So effectively 31 compared to the originals 20. The 6d6 Magnum will though still on average really mess them up with 21 damage.

The real threat is that anyone trained will get more than one attack a round and two hits from something like the Magnum might well drop the character. Bang Bang you're dead.

The problem I have is the relative speed people heal up. sure the SDC is more like bruises and such. But the HP damage is the supposed meat of the character but a few days in bed and they are up and running after bleeding out all over the sidewalk.
THAT I have a problem with.

Quote from: Omega;1056184The problem I have is the relative speed people heal up. sure the SDC is more like bruises and such. But the HP damage is the supposed meat of the character but a few days in bed and they are up and running after bleeding out all over the sidewalk.
THAT I have a problem with.

Who wants to roleplay their character spending two months recovering from gunshot wounds?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17626461

People playing in an RPG nominally based on the real world?

In the original BTS the healing rate was 2 HP and 4 SDC per day if non-professional treatment and with professional treatment it jumps up to 4 HP and 6 SDC per day. The average PC will be healed up in about 4 days without and about 2 days with professional treatment. That is absurdly fast.

Quote from: Omega;1056209People playing in an RPG nominally based on the real world?

In the original BTS the healing rate was 2 HP and 4 SDC per day if non-professional treatment and with professional treatment it jumps up to 4 HP and 6 SDC per day. The average PC will be healed up in about 4 days without and about 2 days with professional treatment. That is absurdly fast.

So while a PC is recovering, the player plays *gasp* a second PC! Could it be? More than one PC per player? This is a game, not a drama fair?

Does BTS not have the optional damage rules that Rifts has?  Or the coma rules?

Edit:  My copy of 1e from 1988 does in fact have these rules.

Quote from: KingCheops;1056242Does BTS not have the optional damage rules that Rifts has?  Or the coma rules?

Edit:  My copy of 1e from 1988 does in fact have these rules.

The original does indeed have the coma rules. And the new one does too.

The original also had some lasting and temporary impairment rules. All were optional though. We used them. I know others didnt.
The new version has instead the blood loss rule, -1 HP per 4 rounds once the character is down to 1/2 their HP total. No lasting or temp impairment rules that I can recall.

Quote from: Ninneveh;1055931Does BTS do anything better than Call of Cthulhu that gives it a niche in the horror rpg genre?

BTS is a very under-rated horror game. It has a different vibe from most other games out there; it's modern, rather than historical. It's got some (pseudo-)Lovecraftian elements but it doesn't have the style of CoC of dilettantes and academics getting murdered by tentacle monstrosities. It assumes that the PCs are capable people who are meant to actually fight off or defeat the terrors. Plus, it ALSO has horror material that is not lovecraftian, you can make your campaign more lovecraft-esque or you can do it as fighting vampires or werewolves or whatever.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1056441BTS is a very under-rated horror game. It has a different vibe from most other games out there; it's modern, rather than historical. It's got some (pseudo-)Lovecraftian elements but it doesn't have the style of CoC of dilettantes and academics getting murdered by tentacle monstrosities. It assumes that the PCs are capable people who are meant to actually fight off or defeat the terrors. Plus, it ALSO has horror material that is not lovecraftian, you can make your campaign more lovecraft-esque or you can do it as fighting vampires or werewolves or whatever.

Well that is what the original was. The new version feels neutered.

For me BTS brings to mind shows like Kolchak: the Night Stalker and the failed pilot Spectre. And 10 years later Extreme Ghostbusters kept making me think "BTS: the series" heh.

Quote from: Omega;1056464Well that is what the original was. The new version feels neutered.

Well, that is in following with most of Palladium's 2nd editions.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1056805Well, that is in following with most of Palladium's 2nd editions.

The only 2E version of their rpgs I like is Palladium Fantasy which still felt complete. Otherwise BTS2, and Even their first edition of some of their rpgs are missing key elements. Rifts Ultimate Edition which I enjoy was a mess in terms of organization imo. Filled with constant shilling of other rifts books and the section to make one own monsters was left out. Forcing one to buy other sourcebooks

I pretty exclusively run heroes unlimited and/or ninjas and superspies these days... the non mdc palladium systems are entirely my systems of choice.  Yes the publisher is horriterribad in a number of ways but with a little trimmin around the edges palladium's got a game that runs exactly how I want it to.  It has consistantly resulted in vastly more 'at the table fun' than every other system... which, for me, is where the rubber meets the road.

It is hard being the guy who likes the system when there's so many folks that dismiss it for the gestalt reasons of hating production schedule notoriety and kickstarter notoriety and copyright infringement paranoia notoriety and god help me the most notorious notoriety of all... The dreaded 'layout' notoriety.... Heaven help us we'll never fix this rubix cube...  A hedge maze of false promises and false bravado and false deadlines... sure sure... of course... For me the only drawback to Palladium (and its a huge one) as a system is the fact comes with such a vast array of 'peripheral toxic baggage'.  Sure there are folks who dont like the system simply because they actually dont like the system... But the overwhelming bulk of its detractor status is the fact that its the popular system to hate for so many more reasons than simply that a player doesn't like the system itself.  Being a palladium hater is a popular stance and is the low hanging fruit of perceived gamer critic credentials/credibility.

Hating it a lot is even a bit hard to believe.  Its core is a reskin of ad&d so its skeleton is built largely of the same bits of every other gaming system you could possibly be running.  Its not THAT different from what you probably call your favorite system... and moreso than a LOT of the newer... I'm gonna pick on some very popular wargames here for a second... this system is agile. Nimble... Easy to homebrew out the things you dont like and homebrew in the things you do... This system takes to bolt ons with practically no trouble at all.  hate percentile skill systems? Bolt on what you like instead.  Hate multiple attacks per round?  Hate mdc? Love feat trees and fate points?  You hate armor ratings and prefer damage resistance?  This system isnt gonna creak under the pressure of just about any tailoring you like.  It is a few facile flicks of the wrist away from whatever you're probably calling your favorite system in the first place.  And you're probably homebrewin your favorite system just as much.

Yes yes. Kevin bad. Nearly everything kevin adjacent bad... But the system is far better than its reputation and again.  At the table, where it matters most, its been vastly and handily the most consistant satisfying fun producer of any of the systems I've actually played.  

No i'm not an employee. I've never submitted content to the rifter.  I am not a contributor, a kickstarter, an artist or a coauthor of a single thing... I'm not even a megaversal ambassador.  I've never met Kevin.  I've never attempted to reach Kevin.  I've never been to the convention.  I just play the damn game and its great.  Its a much better game than the river of sewage that seems destined to flow over you when you say you're a fan of the game.  Thats the hardest part.  Thats the worst part of the system.  Thats the part of the system that I hate that I can't just homebrew away.

It's not the fans job to fix the issues if a rpg. Its the creator job to do so. I enjoyed and played and still enjoy reading my old and new Palladium products. To try and lump dislike if the system to just hating Kevin and never pkaying the system. It just prime grade bullshit.

Their is a decent if somewhat clunky system buried in the rules. It needs a major rewtite or just a simply streamling to be more accessible and profitable. Given thw number of tpgs that can do whatever PB rpgs can do sometimes better. If your main selling  point is houseruling first off big deal one can do that with other rpgs with less work. Second as the late Harlan Ellison said PAY ME. https://youtu.be/mj5IV23g-fE.

I will admit that as a gamer I have zero interest in if a system is profitable and correlate quality with profitability in zero ways.  I mean a system could sell like hotcakes because it has tons of pages of evocative full color professional artwork but the game itself might play like crap.  Storyteller games built around popular licenced properties come to mind.

Not saying I wont scoop up the gal gadot wonderwoman pictorial role playing game or the new doctor who game just to have some memento's on paper of david tennant and billie piper the badwolf blonde bombshell... but they're not good games by any measure.

I will say the type of ire that swells up from palladium haters at the mention of palladium system, while maximum bullshit in terms of quantity, its not what I'd call 'prime grade' in terms of quality.  Their pungency does match their fervor though.

Quote from: VincentTakeda;1056848It is hard being the guy who likes the system when there's so many folks that dismiss it for the gestalt reasons of hating production schedule notoriety and kickstarter notoriety and copyright infringement paranoia notoriety and god help me the most notorious notoriety of all... The dreaded 'layout' notoriety.... Heaven help us we'll never fix this rubix cube...  A hedge maze of false promises and false bravado and false deadlines... sure sure... of course... For me the only drawback to Palladium (and its a huge one) as a system is the fact comes with such a vast array of 'peripheral toxic baggage'.  Sure there are folks who dont like the system simply because they actually dont like the system... But the overwhelming bulk of its detractor status is the fact that its the popular system to hate for so many more reasons than simply that a player doesn't like the system itself.  Being a palladium hater is a popular stance and is the low hanging fruit of perceived gamer critic credentials/credibility.

I mock Kevin Siembieda because he is a nitwit. I critique the Palladium system for it's own merits or flaws.
Off the top of my head-
Attacks per melee are cumbersome.
Damage to MDC/SDC/HP ratio is very low. This results in very grindy, drawn out combats.
Skill system is all over the place. The Palladium game line has severe skill list bloat. % system does not mesh well with d20 combat system.

Having said that, the Palladium system does have a lot that appeals.
The d20 roll over system for combat is simple and easy to run. The core books and world books are usually pretty imaginative (if juvenile) and a blast to play in.