So, since we've been talking about lesser-known horror games (that is to say, second-tier behind Call of Cthulhu) of the 80s and 90s, what about Beyond the Supernatural?
I think it is one of the most underappreciated gems of the genre, myself.
Never wanted to run it, because of the Palladium System (which I dislike), but there was a great deal of superb info on running a horror game therein.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;881634Never wanted to run it, because of the Palladium System (which I dislike), but there was a great deal of superb info on running a horror game therein.
This I think sums up a lot of Palladium for me. They have great setting material but I'm not a big fan of the system.
The system while a bit clunky isn't the problem for me. The fact that Tomb of the Grotesque, and Beyond Arcanum (Monster and Magic) books have been coming soon for what over a decade? It kills me, and shows Pally lack of support for the line.
What are some good "beyond the supernatural" settings out there? Ones that are actually scary and not just gory.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;881670What are some good "beyond the supernatural" settings out there? Ones that are actually scary and not just gory.
While some setting are a bit campy, or what not. I think the key is how they are run by the DM and played by the players. For example "Chill" can be a creepy/scary game or it can be a wacky, pulpy, fun house ride.
Quote from: Certified;881641This I think sums up a lot of Palladium for me. They have great setting material but I'm not a big fan of the system.
this is very much how i react as a whole for example im a big fan of macross but id never use there system for it.
on the other hand id likely be willing to run after the bomb
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;881634Never wanted to run it, because of the Palladium System (which I dislike), but there was a great deal of superb info on running a horror game therein.
BTS was from the era before Rifts (Its a sort of neo-background for Rifts). And the system works darn well really as it has not yet bloated into the later power creep.
That, Night Bane, and System Shock are three settings overlooked due to people seeing "Palladium" and walking away in moral outrage. Hating it because someone told them to.
Now if on the other hand you actually looked at the game and just didnt like the mechanics. Which are a pseudo-D&D with a percentile based skill system and point based magic/psi. Then thats a different matter.
I GMed BTS quite a bit way back. Fun system and setting. Lots of oddities to explore and fairly versatile too. You could run Kolchak style investigators, Lovecraft style investigators, Ghostbusters style investigators, Doctor Strange style, and so on. Or even run things like Scanners style psychic wars.
Quote from: Omega;881785...
That, Night Bane, and System Shock are three settings overlooked due to people seeing "Palladium" and walking away in moral outrage. Hating it because someone told them to.
Now if on the other hand you actually looked at the game and just didnt like the mechanics. Which are a pseudo-D&D with a percentile based skill system and point based magic/psi. Then thats a different matter.
...
While it is popular to hate on Palladium's systems, it's been my experience that it's not because someone told them to, it's because they suffered through it on one or more occasions. Up until a handful of years ago, I've owned most of Palladium's games at one point or another, and I, like many others, respect their ideas, but the systems have consistently been sub-par in my experience.
That said, I never picked up BTS because it just flat out wasn't something I figured had all that many neat ideas. I looked at it a number of times and then put it back on the shelf at the store. I don't think it was bad, it just wasn't great and there were many other better options.
Quote from: Brander;881794While it is popular to hate on Palladium's systems, it's been my experience that it's not because someone told them to, it's because they suffered through it on one or more occasions. Up until a handful of years ago, I've owned most of Palladium's games at one point or another, and I, like many others, respect their ideas, but the systems have consistently been sub-par in my experience.
That said, I never picked up BTS because it just flat out wasn't something I figured had all that many neat ideas. I looked at it a number of times and then put it back on the shelf at the store. I don't think it was bad, it just wasn't great and there were many other better options.
Have to agree here, my dislike for Palladium comes from the games I've played. My 90s were littered with Ninjas and Superspies, TMNT, Rifts and Heroes Unlimited. The engine got more than it's fair chance to impress me.
Also, Nightspawn... damn it. ;)
Did Palladium players not know from reading the rules if they would hate the system or not before ever playing a game?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;881829Did Palladium players not know from reading the rules if they would hate the system or not before ever playing a game?
For me, the settings, were enough to get me to try the games. While I was generally not a fat on the rules even at the time I had few other options outside of D&D with my gaming group. At least until Vampire started to catch on. Once we started to see other more streamlined games my gaming group quickly moved away from the Palladium system. Although, we did suffer from bouts of Palladium flair up as one member of our gaming group really liked the system itself.
Palladium never appealed to me. Partly because it was reskinned D&D. Back in the day I wanted rules which were significantly different, not just a variation on what I already had. I did buy the Rifts book when it was new and flashy and was the big hit of the year. It looked cool and all but I just couldn't grok how the world was supposed to function. And the game itself... how does one run an adventure when one PC is a Glitterboy pilot, another a Ley Line Walker and a third is a woodland scout? The GM would have to restrict half the classes just to make the scene plausible, but then that would kill half the fun too. I dunno... interesting idea but too wild and strange for me.
As for horror, I didn't move beyond Call of C'Thulhu. Never needed to. When you got the best why mess with the rest? Heck, at the convention last week I mostly played CoC. Went insane and died alot, fun was had by all.
I was a big Palladium fan in my pre-teen and early teen days, and I eagerly bought Beyond the Supernatural when it first came out.
I remember the book almost came across as a slightly-more-serious Ghostbusters game, except for the sample adventure which had the players taking on the role of a group of pubescent girls in a horror movie scenario.
The table that had you roll for breast size was funny, but made me uncomfortable enough that I never really did much with it, and stuck with my TMNT/Ninjas & Superspies/Heroes Unlimited mash-ups until I had a group that would play Star Wars D6.
I thought they did a fine job on the unifying conceits involving ley lines and such.
I don't recall how that version of the Palladium rules set looked to me. I'd had a lot of fun with the Mechanoids booklets and the Palladium RPG (1st ed.) as GM, and TMNT and Battletech as a player, but found Heroes Unlimited off-putting.
Quote from: Certified;881798Have to agree here, my dislike for Palladium comes from the games I've played. My 90s were littered with Ninjas and Superspies, TMNT, Rifts and Heroes Unlimited. The engine got more than it's fair chance to impress me.
Also, Nightspawn... damn it. ;)
1: Indeed. But there is a faction of haters against Palladium simply because someone said so rather than actually playing it and forming their own opinion.
2: Damn it indeed.
Quote from: Ddogwood;881859I remember the book almost came across as a slightly-more-serious Ghostbusters game,
except for the sample adventure which had the players taking on the role of a group of pubescent girls in a horror movie scenario.
1: Yep. It could well handle that sans the comedy. Or better yet Night Stalker style investigation. Which bridges between Cthulhu-esque horror and Ghostbusters not horror. Surprisingly versatile.
2: It was actually a separate setting and playstyle from the main game. It states so in the intro. And as noted in the other thread. Its a bit jarring a change. Like finding Ghostbusters in the back of Call of Cthulhu.
Quote from: Omega;8818951: Indeed. But there is a faction of haters against Palladium simply because someone said so rather than actually playing it and forming their own opinion.
My own distaste was for the man at the head of the company. Not the games. I made a it a point to never buy any Palladium stuff new, only second hand.
But BtS preceded my adoption of that policy.
So true.
I liked the first edition of Beyond the Supernatural quite a lot.
It was a functional (if hardly elegant) set of rules attached to a minimum setting information with some interesting character options not normally available in a horror role-playing game.
It allowed us to play scenarios inspired by the horror movies of the day that we enjoyed... Tremors, Fright Night, Critters, Lost Boys, etc.
The second edition is a different beast. It develops the setting more, gives more comprehensive rules for psionics and more character options, but is less complete, lacking a proper bestiary and magic system for well over a decade. So while I own this edition, I have never put it to use.
Quote from: Omega;881785...That, Night Bane, and System Shock are three settings overlooked due to people seeing "Palladium" and walking away in moral outrage. Hating it because someone told them to....
is this the same system shock im thinking of ?????
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/562684-system-shock/images/128783
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;881829Did Palladium players not know from reading the rules if they would hate the system or not before ever playing a game?
i dont know about every one i know reading it is what turned me off of useing it for macross
I suspect Omega means Systems Failure, Bill Coffin's millennium bug apocalypse game that Palladium published but no longer support. It is generally acknowledged to be one of the better iterations of the Megaversal rules.
Quote from: Malleustein;882028The second edition is a different beast. It develops the setting more, gives more comprehensive rules for psionics and more character options, but is less complete, lacking a proper bestiary and magic system for well over a decade. So while I own this edition, I have never put it to use.
When did they put out a second edition?
Quote from: kosmos1214;882060is this the same system shock im thinking of ?????
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/562684-system-shock/images/128783
oops! Meant System Failure.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/37/Systems_Failure_RPG_1999.jpg)
Quote from: Omega;882116oops! Meant System Failure.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/37/Systems_Failure_RPG_1999.jpg)
oh thank heh now im sad i had my hope up :P
Quote from: Omega;882113When did they put out a second edition?
2005, there was a limited edition hardcover and a retail softcover that remains on sale. Unfortunately, the core book contained only a small handful of supernatural entities and no arcane magic, only psionics.
The planned sourcebooks Tome Grotesque and Beyond Arcanum remain unreleased to this day, though sneak previews have appeared in The Rifter. Both books are occasionally mentioned in Siembieda's weekly updates but always pushed back in favour of RIFTS, Robotech and other more popular lines.
I've got a first printing of the 2nd Edition signed by Captain Ego himself, but that's about the only noteworthy thing I can say about it. It's got some decent ideas, but the system itself made me never want to try it.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;882233I've got a first printing of the 2nd Edition signed by Captain Ego himself, but that's about the only noteworthy thing I can say about it. It's got some decent ideas, but the system itself made me never want to try it.
While I have yet to use it, I like many of the ideas in the game. I particularly like the way psionic energy diminishes under scientific scrutiny (so no-one can ever prove psychics are real) but multiplies when a player character confront supernatural creatures.
The more powerful the entity, the more power you get to fight it! That is a very cool idea. It means mundane threats (cops, cultists, etc.) can be a threat to player characters, but only the player characters themselves can confront demons and elder evils.
Quote from: Malleustein;882247While I have yet to use it, I like many of the ideas in the game. I particularly like the way psionic energy diminishes under scientific scrutiny (so no-one can ever prove psychics are real) but multiplies when a player character confront supernatural creatures.
The more powerful the entity, the more power you get to fight it! That is a very cool idea. It means mundane threats (cops, cultists, etc.) can be a threat to player characters, but only the player characters themselves can confront demons and elder evils.
And that would be the decent ideas I'm talking about. You only being the Slayer around vampires is a cool idea, cause you're just Joe Average the rest of the time, and neatly sidesteps the Mage problem of "I have infinite cosmic power, screw everyone beneath me".
Quote from: Malleustein;882247While I have yet to use it, I like many of the ideas in the game. I particularly like the way psionic energy diminishes under scientific scrutiny (so no-one can ever prove psychics are real) but multiplies when a player character confront supernatural creatures.
That is a cool idea.
Does Palladium sell in PDF?
Unfortunately, only the first edition and it's adventure book (Boxed Nightmares) are available that I can see on RPGNow...
Palladium Books have been converting from print to .pdf for a while now, usually adding a couple of books every week. But who can say when Beyond the Supernatural's second edition will reach the top of the pile.
Bafflingly, the Nightbane sourcebook Shadows of Light is available, even though that has been pretty much disowned and hasn't seen print in years. Yet Beyond the Supernatural hasn't been converted yet.
Beyond the Supernatural is one of my favorite settings from Palladium Books. The Victim Rules of 1st edition being a particular highlight for me. The character generation is very streamlined taking only a few minutes. The characters are basic to model the average person you see in a horror movie.
I used to be on a irc chat room for Palladium fans and we would run victim games there a lot. A person would volunteer to be GM and come up with the game while everyone else made their characters. It usually only took about 10 minutes to get the game started. It was a lot of fun and sure made you think fast as a GM.
As a self plug Rifter 71-72 has an article by me for Beyond the Supernatural 2nd that adds ten knew monsters from Japan with HL&S.
The ordinary people/victim rules in the second edition are nice too. There is an option to spend ISP at character creation to boost some abilities if you want "better than average but still unpowered" characters.
I sub' the Rifter and read through your Japanese monsters only a week or two back. My Rifter #71-72 was sooo late arriving.
Quote from: Malleustein;8822122005, there was a limited edition hardcover and a retail softcover that remains on sale. Unfortunately, the core book contained only a small handful of supernatural entities and no arcane magic, only psionics.
The planned sourcebooks Tome Grotesque and Beyond Arcanum remain unreleased to this day, though sneak previews have appeared in The Rifter. Both books are occasionally mentioned in Siembieda's weekly updates but always pushed back in favour of RIFTS, Robotech and other more popular lines.
Yup - I bought the 2nd edition and was let down at the lack of magic (and long running lack of attention). My copy has prints of the 1st edition Arcanist and other "missing" character classes - I'd totally handwave them in rather than go without.
I remember buying the 1st edition when it came out (hyped in Dragon mag at the time). I enjoyed it and ran several sessions "straight" - I.e., serious ghost hunting. One of my friends still references one of the key sessions (where his non-believing PC began making more and more extreme rational answers as the circumstance got less rational).
Palladium system of not, it's still a favorite of mInc.
I've reconciled with the lack of arcane magic. I've been tinkering with a setting that accepts psionics as the singular source of supernatural power anyway, so I don't really require mages.
The Nega-Psychic is a cool O.C.C. but it can be hard to rationalize the zombies, gurgoyles, vampires, etc. in the long term. Especially if the group includes genuine psychic player characters.
When I DMed it way back I ended up with a group of normal, if professional, people. Not a one had magic or psi.
That is the way I prefer to Referee the game too. I find the Palladium rules still create more "action/combat ready" characters than Call of Cthulhu, which maintains the horror movie vibe I like.
How high powered are the psi-rules? Lots of horror games if they introduce PC-psi make it pretty powerful which I think is against genre. Cthulhu d20 of all things was the best implementaion of it I've seen (not that I liked much else there, but they got psi right for that style of game).
New or old?
In the old version you had some fairly low level psi types like the Latent Psychic, Psi Sensetive, Psychic Healer or Genius, and then there were the more active types like the Physical Psychic and Psi Mechanic.
The Latent Psychic for example had 1 minor, major and physical power.
The Genius converted PPE into skill boosts.
The Physical Psychic purchased powers from a list and tended to be very flashy.
Electrokinesis for example did 1d6 damage. Pyrokinesis on the other hand did 6d6 with the hurled fire version. Or you could for example make yourself impervious to cold or take none or only 1/2 damage from fire.
Overall on the lower end of the power scale.
Quote from: Ronin;881664The system while a bit clunky isn't the problem for me. The fact that Tomb of the Grotesque, and Beyond Arcanum (Monster and Magic) books have been coming soon for what over a decade? It kills me, and shows Pally lack of support for the line.
You are upset at Palladium for being late on its books? Well, that's just adorable.
Quote from: Omega;881785System Shock
Did you mean Systems Failure? That was not only the best single Palladium RPG ever made, it was one of the best RPGs ever made.
A buddy of mine runs a Beyond the Supernatural game at Origins most years. He started running it during a time when our group rotated games week to week. I think because no one was running a game with a horror theme or in the modern era.
Also, the system is pretty simple; especially when you handwave stuff on the spot. With pre-made characters and a quick explanation of combat (d20+mods vs d20+mods) and skills (roll under d100), and magic/psionics (spend points) anyone should be good to go.
With BtS you aren't dealing with missiles, MDC, or robot combat. The setting is right now, so no long descriptions of goofball setting bullshit is necessary. It's also interesting to me because it treats magic and psionics in an almost clinical or scientific way. Instead of some lame 'magic simply exists and monsters are all old myths and legends.' I like the unique monsters; when I was a kid, the Dybbuk and Mindolar scared the shit out of me.
Anyway...
He says turnout is always lower than hoped, but suspects it has to do with the perception of Palladium and unfamiliarity with game setting, as it has been essentially out of print for over a decade.
Quote from: D-503;882920How high powered are the psi-rules? Lots of horror games if they introduce PC-psi make it pretty powerful which I think is against genre. Cthulhu d20 of all things was the best implementaion of it I've seen (not that I liked much else there, but they got psi right for that style of game).
In the first edition, I'd say psychics were low-to-medium in power. There were plenty of utility abilities, but only a few for combat. Though I generally find psionic player characters are good at avoiding a fight or "winning" without firing a shot but use of their psionic abilities (if not natural ones or skills).
In second edition, psychics have far less power they can use day-to-day. Without a dangerous supernatural entity to confront, they are stuck bending spoons and walking across hot coals. When investigating the supernatural and especially when such a threat looms, they get a pretty hefty multiplier to their I.S.P. (battery for psionic powers).
So without a threat, second edition characters are definitely weaker than first edition characters, but when facing off against a greater demon or ancient alien intelligence, they can bring a lot more to bear. It is a mechanic I like a lot.
The nega-psychic remains the oddity. Besides wearing dismissive blinkers, they can handwave away most non-physical attacks from supernatural entities but can seriously cramp the style of their psychic allies too. Nonetheless, they remain powerful through both editions simply due to this ability to shrug off or diminish nearby psychic phenomena.
RPGPundit, start up a thread about Systems Failure!!
BTS and HU never wow'd me. I love Nightbane and that's my go-to Palladium horror and my preferred "World of Darkness".
I've read BTS and its got very good GM advice, but as a horror game, I was much more drawn to CoC and Chill. I really loved Chill for its concept as horrors as alien beings that feed off fear.
Though as horror goes, Chaos Earth lends itself nicely...but that game needs a 2e and a relaunch.
Wormwood was a pretty interesting near stand-alone bio-horror setting for Rifts too. Felt like it could have been its own game and would have done fine.
Quote from: Spinachcat;884695Though as horror goes, Chaos Earth lends itself nicely...but that game needs a 2e and a relaunch.
While hardly a relaunch, Chaos Earth received its first official supplement in a decade recently in CE Resurrection, which I thoroughly enjoyed. I was worried it would be a copy/paste effort with Dead Reign's zombies, but far from it, a very cool campaign toolkit.
Does BTS do anything better than Call of Cthulhu that gives it a niche in the horror rpg genre?
Quote from: Malleustein;882335Bafflingly, the Nightbane sourcebook Shadows of Light is available, even though that has been pretty much disowned and hasn't seen print in years. Yet Beyond the Supernatural hasn't been converted yet.
I suspect it went down like this:
Shadows of Light had burned through its print run(s), and Kevin S. wasn't seeing returns like he wanted but Nightbane was still selling. Meanwhile, folks were hollering "we want PDFs! Why no PDFs? You know we make pirated PDFs of your books because you don't sell them right?" So Kevin S. released Shadows of Light as a PDF in test form (I think he was still supposed to be using light tables and wax rollers for layout at this time, seriously, so PDFs were new and scary waters for Palladium) and... it sold. Not great, because it was a shitty book, but it still sold some copies. So Kevin S. released more obscure and less popular stuff via PDF, and has been doing so ever since.
Of course, paying someone to do conversions would mean he'd have to spend money. So he or somebody else does a few here and there as they have time, focusing on popular titles first, and less popular ones (i.e. BtS) later.
Meanwhile, he figures folks wanting monsters and spells and such for BtS can just go buy Rifts books and convert stats, and puts the BtS books on the back burner (creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure. "BtS books don't sell because they lack support. I won't support BtS because BtS books don't sell.").
Anyway, that's my speculation.
Quote from: Spinachcat;884695RPGPundit, start up a thread about Systems Failure!!
Agreed! I'm not really a fan of post apocalyptic, and I think Palladium's ruleset is clunky as hell, but I LOVE me some Systems Failure!
Quote from: Ninneveh;1055931Does BTS do anything better than Call of Cthulhu that gives it a niche in the horror rpg genre?
BTS does modern horror and certain types of horror/fantasy/SF far better than CoC. They usually, but not allways, play very differently. BTS has a more Ghostbusters and especially Ghostbusters Extreme feel to it as the PCs tend to be alot more aware of the supernatural and may be packing the hardware or powers to try and go toe to toe with some of these things.
BTS effectively does what some CoC players bitched incessantly for. The ability to just go in gunz-a-blazin and not be massacred (much). CoC can handle that too. Just differently and of course BTS can handle investigative style play.
Quote from: Omega;1056025BTS does modern horror and certain types of horror/fantasy/SF far better than CoC. They usually, but not allways, play very differently. BTS has a more Ghostbusters and especially Ghostbusters Extreme feel to it as the PCs tend to be alot more aware of the supernatural and may be packing the hardware or powers to try and go toe to toe with some of these things.
BTS effectively does what some CoC players bitched incessantly for. The ability to just go in gunz-a-blazin and not be massacred (much). CoC can handle that too. Just differently and of course BTS can handle investigative style play.
Awesome! I'm picking it up.
I have the original and had a glance through the new version.
Personally I like the original a little more as it had more class options as it were and the equipment section was much more impressive, that and the monster section for the new version feel much much smaller. Worse. What little there is of equipment is bundled in with the skills sections and I did not see any of the original high tech gear. Seems like the tone of the gam has been shifted heavily to the psionics side. And I do not recall there being any actual magic caster classes in the new version?
The new version though spends ALOT more time explaining the premise. The original just kinda threw you in there with the basics.
Also while the new cover isnt bad. It feels a bit too 30s-esque. And I rather liked Corbens cover on the original. Also some of the new interior art isnt as lively either.
Quote from: Ninneveh;1056035Awesome! I'm picking it up.
I would buy the original 1E version. It's pretty compkete imo. The 2E version is misding both magic and a monster section. With no ETA on their release.
I never liked the Nega-Psychic both as a class and a concept. It's one thing to have abilities that bother and disrupt psychic and magic abilities. It's another to be in complete denial about the existence of the supernatural. It stopped making sense for agent Scully in the X-Files after a few seasons of the show imo.
It makes less sense for a class imo. I only saw one played at a table and thst was because the player was a asshole who liked being disruptive and attention seeking. Who got a kick screwing over other players classes at the table. We walked away when his character was torn to shreds. The GM made it clear it was a no win situation yet stayed behind because he just needed to be the center of attention at every table and encounter.
At least in Rifts they brought tbe class back and dropped the stupid rationale of being in denial and obviousness of the Supernatural it really does not work in Rifts imo. Not to mention both in Rifts and BTS such individual would be targeted for extermination and perhaps genocide. Or at the very least enslaved by the Splugorth.
Yeah the new BTS is sorely lacking in many things.
Equipment: Heavily gutted and now some of it is buried in the skills section?
Magic: all gone.
Monsters: about 75% missing.
And dont get me started on the Nega Psychic. The class works best if you view them as someone who probably saw something supernatural and went 1000% insane. Because the class as presented IS insane. And like the Kender or Tinker Gnomes in Dragonlance, they seem to attract the wrong players. Though the new Autistic Savant Psychic I found made for a wonderfully logical counterpoint. Someone who unshakably believes vs someone who unshakably disbelieves.
Quote from: Omega;1056149Yeah the new BTS is sorely lacking in many things.
Equipment: Heavily gutted and now some of it is buried in the skills section?
Magic: all gone.
Monsters: about 75% missing.
Dafuq?
Palladium went temporarily insane as a whole for a certain period of time. They thought they could gut Chaos Earth ( missing psionics, magic and monsters) and BTS 2 missing most of the monsters and magic from both core books. Sell them as " complete " and thought the fanbase was too stupid to notice. Too bad for them they did. At least Chaos Earth has a magic and monster book available. The same cannot be said for BTS2.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056150Dafuq?
Pretty much my reaction too. I thought I'd missed it on my glance through. But no. I went through again and nada for magic casters. No Diabolist. No Magic Practitioner or equivalent.
Same with equipment. There isnt even an equipment section! A Palladium book WITHOUT AN EQUIPMENT SECTION!!!!!! Weapons are bundled in the skills section and pretty basic. No vehicles or other equipment I could spot.
And there are only about 10 monsters +3 or so variants of entities. About all the iconic BTS horrors are missing.
Any game that allows a human schlub survive a .44 mag slug to the torso and SURVIVE EASILY, is one I tend to shy away from.
I agree that BTS has a lot of good information, but Palladium man... I want so much to like this system, I loved it back in Palladium Fantasy 1e, but since TMNT (first printing) it's gone downhill hard.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056157Any game that allows a human schlub survive a .44 mag slug to the torso and SURVIVE EASILY, is one I tend to shy away from.
I agree that BTS has a lot of good information, but Palladium man... I want so much to like this system, I loved it back in Palladium Fantasy 1e, but since TMNT (first printing) it's gone downhill hard.
er... In BTS your average PC will have around 13 HP (3d6+1d4) and on average 7 SDC without any training. A Magnum does 6d6 damage, (not sure what it was in the original. Probably 4-6d6) averaging 21 damage. Thats going to blow right through the average characters SDC and chunk off half their HP if doing 4d6 and all of it if 6d6. so yeah it can potentially drop a person in one shot. But just like the real thing it might not due to whatever factors.
The real problem is how SDC and HP are described while in gameplay SDC seems to act more like D&D HP. mostly stamina/dodging/luck that gets depleted and then the real meat of the character is the HP.
Quote from: Omega;1056160er... In BTS your average PC will have around 13 HP (3d6+1d4) and on average 7 SDC without any training. A Magnum does 6d6 damage, (not sure what it was in the original. Probably 4-6d6) averaging 21 damage. Thats going to blow right through the average characters SDC and chunk off half their HP if doing 4d6 and all of it if 6d6. so yeah it can potentially drop a person in one shot. But just like the real thing it might not due to whatever factors.
The real problem is how SDC and HP are described while in gameplay SDC seems to act more like D&D HP. mostly stamina/dodging/luck that gets depleted and then the real meat of the character is the HP.
Back in first edition BTS, the only .44 magnum was in a supplement, and it did 5d6 (then they did 4d6 for a while) and average damage with 5d6 is 15, 6d6 raises that to 18, and most people have 21 HP as you point out. So the average person can take a 44 slug and survive it. Law of Averages says... Huhn?
My point stands.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056163Back in first edition BTS, the only .44 magnum was in a supplement, and it did 5d6 (then they did 4d6 for a while) and average damage with 5d6 is 15, 6d6 raises that to 18, and most people have 21 HP as you point out. So the average person can take a 44 slug and survive it. Law of Averages says... Huhn?
My point stands.
Not quite. But I dit mix up the systems.
In the original BTS a PC has 3d6 HP +1d4 more per level. Non-coms have 2d6 SDC. Hence an average of 13 HP and 7 SDC. In the original there wasnt a Magnum but all the equivalents were in the 4d6 range. so average of 14. So sorry to burst your bubble but on average yes a magnum IS going to fuck someone up and if they get hit a second time then they are well into negative HP and will die in about 7 hours if not treated.
New BTS lists the magnum as 6d6 damage. The new version though gives the PCs 1d10+12 SDC, but now HP is PE+1d6. But a new (optional) mechanic of blood loss when the character is down to 1/2 HP. They start losing 1 HP every 4 rounds.
I am not keen on the bump up of of SDC. Thats an average of 17 then add on the new average HP of 14. So effectively 31 compared to the originals 20. The 6d6 Magnum will though still on average really mess them up with 21 damage.
The real threat is that anyone trained will get more than one attack a round and two hits from something like the Magnum might well drop the character. Bang Bang you're dead.
The problem I have is the relative speed people heal up. sure the SDC is more like bruises and such. But the HP damage is the supposed meat of the character but a few days in bed and they are up and running after bleeding out all over the sidewalk.
THAT I have a problem with.
Quote from: Omega;1056184The problem I have is the relative speed people heal up. sure the SDC is more like bruises and such. But the HP damage is the supposed meat of the character but a few days in bed and they are up and running after bleeding out all over the sidewalk.
THAT I have a problem with.
Who wants to roleplay their character spending two months recovering from gunshot wounds?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17626461
People playing in an RPG nominally based on the real world?
In the original BTS the healing rate was 2 HP and 4 SDC per day if non-professional treatment and with professional treatment it jumps up to 4 HP and 6 SDC per day. The average PC will be healed up in about 4 days without and about 2 days with professional treatment. That is absurdly fast.
Quote from: Omega;1056209People playing in an RPG nominally based on the real world?
In the original BTS the healing rate was 2 HP and 4 SDC per day if non-professional treatment and with professional treatment it jumps up to 4 HP and 6 SDC per day. The average PC will be healed up in about 4 days without and about 2 days with professional treatment. That is absurdly fast.
So while a PC is recovering, the player plays *gasp* a second PC! Could it be? More than one PC per player? This is a game, not a drama fair? ;)
Does BTS not have the optional damage rules that Rifts has? Or the coma rules?
Edit: My copy of 1e from 1988 does in fact have these rules.
Quote from: KingCheops;1056242Does BTS not have the optional damage rules that Rifts has? Or the coma rules?
Edit: My copy of 1e from 1988 does in fact have these rules.
The original does indeed have the coma rules. And the new one does too.
The original also had some lasting and temporary impairment rules. All were optional though. We used them. I know others didnt.
The new version has instead the blood loss rule, -1 HP per 4 rounds once the character is down to 1/2 their HP total. No lasting or temp impairment rules that I can recall.
Quote from: Ninneveh;1055931Does BTS do anything better than Call of Cthulhu that gives it a niche in the horror rpg genre?
BTS is a very under-rated horror game. It has a different vibe from most other games out there; it's modern, rather than historical. It's got some (pseudo-)Lovecraftian elements but it doesn't have the style of CoC of dilettantes and academics getting murdered by tentacle monstrosities. It assumes that the PCs are capable people who are meant to actually fight off or defeat the terrors. Plus, it ALSO has horror material that is not lovecraftian, you can make your campaign more lovecraft-esque or you can do it as fighting vampires or werewolves or whatever.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1056441BTS is a very under-rated horror game. It has a different vibe from most other games out there; it's modern, rather than historical. It's got some (pseudo-)Lovecraftian elements but it doesn't have the style of CoC of dilettantes and academics getting murdered by tentacle monstrosities. It assumes that the PCs are capable people who are meant to actually fight off or defeat the terrors. Plus, it ALSO has horror material that is not lovecraftian, you can make your campaign more lovecraft-esque or you can do it as fighting vampires or werewolves or whatever.
Well that is what the original was. The new version feels neutered.
For me BTS brings to mind shows like Kolchak: the Night Stalker and the failed pilot Spectre. And 10 years later Extreme Ghostbusters kept making me think "BTS: the series" heh.
Quote from: Omega;1056464Well that is what the original was. The new version feels neutered.
Well, that is in following with most of Palladium's 2nd editions.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1056805Well, that is in following with most of Palladium's 2nd editions.
The only 2E version of their rpgs I like is Palladium Fantasy which still felt complete. Otherwise BTS2, and Even their first edition of some of their rpgs are missing key elements. Rifts Ultimate Edition which I enjoy was a mess in terms of organization imo. Filled with constant shilling of other rifts books and the section to make one own monsters was left out. Forcing one to buy other sourcebooks
I pretty exclusively run heroes unlimited and/or ninjas and superspies these days... the non mdc palladium systems are entirely my systems of choice. Yes the publisher is horriterribad in a number of ways but with a little trimmin around the edges palladium's got a game that runs exactly how I want it to. It has consistantly resulted in vastly more 'at the table fun' than every other system... which, for me, is where the rubber meets the road.
It is hard being the guy who likes the system when there's so many folks that dismiss it for the gestalt reasons of hating production schedule notoriety and kickstarter notoriety and copyright infringement paranoia notoriety and god help me the most notorious notoriety of all... The dreaded 'layout' notoriety.... Heaven help us we'll never fix this rubix cube... A hedge maze of false promises and false bravado and false deadlines... sure sure... of course... For me the only drawback to Palladium (and its a huge one) as a system is the fact comes with such a vast array of 'peripheral toxic baggage'. Sure there are folks who dont like the system simply because they actually dont like the system... But the overwhelming bulk of its detractor status is the fact that its the popular system to hate for so many more reasons than simply that a player doesn't like the system itself. Being a palladium hater is a popular stance and is the low hanging fruit of perceived gamer critic credentials/credibility.
Hating it a lot is even a bit hard to believe. Its core is a reskin of ad&d so its skeleton is built largely of the same bits of every other gaming system you could possibly be running. Its not THAT different from what you probably call your favorite system... and moreso than a LOT of the newer... I'm gonna pick on some very popular wargames here for a second... this system is agile. Nimble... Easy to homebrew out the things you dont like and homebrew in the things you do... This system takes to bolt ons with practically no trouble at all. hate percentile skill systems? Bolt on what you like instead. Hate multiple attacks per round? Hate mdc? Love feat trees and fate points? You hate armor ratings and prefer damage resistance? This system isnt gonna creak under the pressure of just about any tailoring you like. It is a few facile flicks of the wrist away from whatever you're probably calling your favorite system in the first place. And you're probably homebrewin your favorite system just as much.
Yes yes. Kevin bad. Nearly everything kevin adjacent bad... But the system is far better than its reputation and again. At the table, where it matters most, its been vastly and handily the most consistant satisfying fun producer of any of the systems I've actually played.
No i'm not an employee. I've never submitted content to the rifter. I am not a contributor, a kickstarter, an artist or a coauthor of a single thing... I'm not even a megaversal ambassador. I've never met Kevin. I've never attempted to reach Kevin. I've never been to the convention. I just play the damn game and its great. Its a much better game than the river of sewage that seems destined to flow over you when you say you're a fan of the game. Thats the hardest part. Thats the worst part of the system. Thats the part of the system that I hate that I can't just homebrew away.
It's not the fans job to fix the issues if a rpg. Its the creator job to do so. I enjoyed and played and still enjoy reading my old and new Palladium products. To try and lump dislike if the system to just hating Kevin and never pkaying the system. It just prime grade bullshit.
Their is a decent if somewhat clunky system buried in the rules. It needs a major rewtite or just a simply streamling to be more accessible and profitable. Given thw number of tpgs that can do whatever PB rpgs can do sometimes better. If your main selling point is houseruling first off big deal one can do that with other rpgs with less work. Second as the late Harlan Ellison said PAY ME. https://youtu.be/mj5IV23g-fE.
I will admit that as a gamer I have zero interest in if a system is profitable and correlate quality with profitability in zero ways. I mean a system could sell like hotcakes because it has tons of pages of evocative full color professional artwork but the game itself might play like crap. Storyteller games built around popular licenced properties come to mind.
Not saying I wont scoop up the gal gadot wonderwoman pictorial role playing game or the new doctor who game just to have some memento's on paper of david tennant and billie piper the badwolf blonde bombshell... but they're not good games by any measure.
I will say the type of ire that swells up from palladium haters at the mention of palladium system, while maximum bullshit in terms of quantity, its not what I'd call 'prime grade' in terms of quality. Their pungency does match their fervor though.
Quote from: VincentTakeda;1056848It is hard being the guy who likes the system when there's so many folks that dismiss it for the gestalt reasons of hating production schedule notoriety and kickstarter notoriety and copyright infringement paranoia notoriety and god help me the most notorious notoriety of all... The dreaded 'layout' notoriety.... Heaven help us we'll never fix this rubix cube... A hedge maze of false promises and false bravado and false deadlines... sure sure... of course... For me the only drawback to Palladium (and its a huge one) as a system is the fact comes with such a vast array of 'peripheral toxic baggage'. Sure there are folks who dont like the system simply because they actually dont like the system... But the overwhelming bulk of its detractor status is the fact that its the popular system to hate for so many more reasons than simply that a player doesn't like the system itself. Being a palladium hater is a popular stance and is the low hanging fruit of perceived gamer critic credentials/credibility.
I mock Kevin Siembieda because he is a nitwit. I critique the Palladium system for it's own merits or flaws.
Off the top of my head-
Attacks per melee are cumbersome.
Damage to MDC/SDC/HP ratio is very low. This results in very grindy, drawn out combats.
Skill system is all over the place. The Palladium game line has severe skill list bloat. % system does not mesh well with d20 combat system.
Having said that, the Palladium system does have a lot that appeals.
The d20 roll over system for combat is simple and easy to run. The core books and world books are usually pretty imaginative (if juvenile) and a blast to play in.
Yeah. I too think Kevin personally deserves all the ire he receives. His deadline adherence and his layout and his kickstarter are every bit as bad as their reputation. I'm certainly not a Kevin apologist. I wish he'd sell off his system to someone less horrible. Appeal! Appeal to the sloth and greed! Somebody make him an offer he cant refuse. Somebody from the WWF said everyone has a price, so it has to be true. But the game itself is fun... its sales pitch is balance free kitchen sink gonzo and on that premise it delivers in spades. Its plays the way it looks and it looks the way it plays.
Quote from: VincentTakeda;1056860I will admit that as a gamer I have zero interest in if a system is profitable and correlate quality with profitability in zero ways. I mean a system could sell like hotcakes because it has tons of pages of evocative full color professional artwork but the game itself might play like crap. Storyteller games built around popular licenced properties come to mind.
Being a fun and profitable rpg can be achieved in a rpg. The more money it makes the more sourcebooks can be released. Their is also this thing called money..it's required by pretty much almost every rpg company. It's a form of currency used to pay artists, freelancers, printers, rent, and bills. If you think Kevin and Palladium don't want to make a profit and be profitable over the long run. Whatever your smoking I want some. I think your being purposefully naive in the extreme. Those so called Storyteller style games you hate so much are doing just well financially
Quote from: VincentTakeda;1056860the new doctor who game just to have some memento's on paper of david tennant and billie piper the badwolf blonde bombshell... but they're not good games by any measure.
In your opinion. Just because you don't like them does not mean they are not a success.
Quote from: VincentTakeda;1056860I will say the type of ire that swells up from palladium haters at the mention of palladium system, while maximum bullshit in terms of quantity, its not what I'd call 'prime grade' in terms of quality. Their pungency does match their fervor though.
I don't hate the system I miss playing it yet I also don't look at it wearing rose colored glasses that are also spray painted black. A simple streamlining of the current system without a new edition could work wonders for the rpg as a whole. Correct the copy and paste errors. Properly organize and write the game for beginners not the semi-experienced throw the player in to the deep end that Palladium loves to use. Partner with Herolab or PCgen to make a character creator because it's a pain in the ass to make a character. One bonus a +5% per level for all skills. Write and release books like Lazlo and Chi-Town instead of Rift World Book 75 no one but Kevin, freelancer and a handful of fans want to see released. Hosueruling never was or will be a selling point. People do it yet they rather use RAW imo. Many of what I posted is not impossible to do. It won't happen though. Made worse by the creator of the system playing a houseruled version of his system that runs better yet refuses to upgrade his own system.
At the open house he said he's working on a rewrite of the system for Rifts twentieth anniversary in 2020. It's going to be revised, cleaned up, and when I discussed my biggest pain point being the skill system he said that will be part of it.
Quote from: Lurtch;1056892At the open house he said he's working on a rewrite of the system for Rifts twentieth anniversary in 2020. It's going to be revised, cleaned up, and when I discussed my biggest pain point being the skill system he said that will be part of it.
We will see. Kevin is the man of many promises and breaks most of them. Thanks for letting me know. Though I think we will see this happen first before we see a new version of Rifts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I9blXQEHyw
If they can pull it off and do it properly. As in having a core book like Torg and New World of Darkness not every rpg requires all the core rules imo. I rather have more world information. Problem is he prety much needs to use some other way to finance it besides Kickstarter as he burned that bridge with several nuclear payloads.
Quote from: Lurtch;1056892At the open house he said he's working on a rewrite of the system for Rifts twentieth anniversary in 2020.
That's definitely Palladium. A Twentieth Anniversary edition for when the game is Thirty years old.
Quote from: Lurtch;1056892At the open house he said he's working on a rewrite of the system for Rifts twentieth anniversary in 2020. It's going to be revised, cleaned up, and when I discussed my biggest pain point being the skill system he said that will be part of it.
So we should expect it in 2040? (https://youtu.be/oShTJ90fC34)
Quote from: Gabriel2;1056899That's definitely Palladium. A Twentieth Anniversary edition for when the game is Thirty years old.
That's my fault. I'm an old man and forgot it's been 30 years for rifts
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056900So we should expect it in 2040? (https://youtu.be/oShTJ90fC34)
Let's not get too excited.
Quote from: sureshot;1056853It's not the fans job to fix the issues if a rpg. Its the creator job to do so. I enjoyed and played and still enjoy reading my old and new Palladium products. To try and lump dislike if the system to just hating Kevin and never pkaying the system. It just prime grade bullshit.
Their is a decent if somewhat clunky system buried in the rules. It needs a major rewtite or just a simply streamling to be more accessible and profitable. Given thw number of tpgs that can do whatever PB rpgs can do sometimes better. If your main selling point is houseruling first off big deal one can do that with other rpgs with less work. Second as the late Harlan Ellison said PAY ME. https://youtu.be/mj5IV23g-fE.
Actually from what I have seen over the decades people really do just hate on Palladium RPGs because someone told them to. Never bother to actually play the game or if they did, they seem to go out of their way to misread every single thing so they are vindicated. And you see that even here in Palladium threads.
Quote from: Gabriel2;1056899That's definitely Palladium. A Twentieth Anniversary edition for when the game is Thirty years old.
If that fact was mentioned in the book itself I'd buy it just for its self aware comedic irony. Be nice if Kevin was able to make a comedic nod to his faults if he can't outright admit to them. Have the layout be just as bad but have little sidenotes in the margins saying 'for more on such and such that you were probably actually looking here for, see page 172!' Maybe some 'optional rules' that cover filling your campaign world with only painfully outdated tech.
Reminds me of gigadamage from the april fools rifter. Kevin used to have a sense of humor that he could point at himself. Even if it wasnt his actual revised edition, he could get some revenue mileage out of a parody edition.
Quote from: Omega;1056943Actually from what I have seen over the decades people really do just hate on Palladium RPGs because someone told them to. Never bother to actually play the game or if they did, they seem to go out of their way to misread every single thing so they are vindicated. And you see that even here in Palladium threads.
I never said it does not happen. It unfortunately does. Too often though with some with a favored rpg it's used as a excuse to lash out at those who played the system, don't like it are critical of it in a negative way. Accusung them of never playing it then coming across as a idiot when in fact the other person did play it. So one has to be careful to group anyone and everyone who dislikes their favored rpg as having not played it.
The sad part is small changes like a realistic release schedule. Releasing books late by decades would go a long or maybe short wsy to improvr PB and by r temsion Kevin reputation. It's all good to say the company hS been in business for 30+ yests. Kevin should kmow in his sleep by know how long a book will take to publish. After three decades he should have it down to a exact science or close to it.
If that anniversary edition of Rifts is actually worked on unlike RUE they need to properly maximize what they put in the manuscript imo. No constant references to buy other products. The checklist of what to buy and the developers notes should be on the website. Gives us as much as possible a complete book. Take time to properly edit and fix all the issues. No copy and paste. Take the time to properly do it. RUE looks and feels rushed in development . The missile table depending on your vision requires a magnifying glass to read.
Quote from: sureshot;1056846The only 2E version of their rpgs I like is Palladium Fantasy which still felt complete.
I thought that was one of the editions that had the most changes from the original, and almost all for the worse.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057368I thought that was one of the editions that had the most changes from the original, and almost all for the worse.
True yet it still was pretty complete imo. Magic, psionics, and classes, non-human class options, monsters, dragons all in one. as opposed to the later 2E versions which left the material out of the core. Chaos Earth is particularly bad in this regard. monsters, magic and psionics ( not yet available ) all sold or will be sold separately. It's the fact that they tried to pull a fast one and claim the rpg was complete. It is if you don't want to play with the three missing elements. In that case might as well just play with the RMB or RUE. To think they thought it was a good idea and no one would notice or worse complain about the lack of all three. Sometimes I wonder if the company as a whole and Kevin especially lives in reality.
Well sure, Palladium Fantasy 2e was pretty complete, but so was 1e, and I know hardly anyone who thinks the significant changes in 2e were an improvement over the wonderfulness that was 1e.
How much was changed? What was changed?
Quote from: Omega;1057724How much was changed? What was changed?
Palladium Fantasy 1e Revised used a very early version of the Palladium system. It lacked SDC for one thing. There was no PPE. Magic casters just had a number of spells per day they could cast. Espers still had ISP, though.
Each class had it's own combat progression chart instead of the modern Basic/Expert/Martial Arts/Assassin forms. Bonuses were lower.
I think 1e had a different skill list. It's been many years since I've owned a copy.
Whether 1e or 2e is better depends on what you use Palladium products for. If you want Megaversality out of the products, then 1e is less than ideal because it's a system which has more in common with the original Mechanoids than any of the other games the company makes. On the other hand, 2e uses roughly the same system as the rest of the company's output, so it's easier to swap characters between worlds. Also, there's the matter of familiarity. More people have played the HU, RT, Rifts style engine than the original PF 1e engine, so PF 2e is preferable to them. Still, many people say PF 1e plays better because it isn't bogged down with the rest of the modern Palladium system.
Quote from: Omega;1057724How much was changed? What was changed?
1e was a very different game, very clearly more closely inspired by AD&D, but with significant differences. It was kind of a hybrid between AD&D and what would become the Palladium system.
In 2e, they swept all that away and made it totally conforming to the standard Palladium system.
Thanks. Thats what I thought as it seems vaguely familiar. I believe I have both but a good chunk of my Palladium books are in storage and cant check.
A funny detail about BTS was that it was where the character of Lazlo Zand first showed up. He later on became very important in RIFTS.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058505A funny detail about BTS was that it was where the character of Lazlo Zand first showed up. He later on became very important in RIFTS.
Think you mean Victor Lazlo? And correct. He originated in BTS. Rifts other connection is with After the Bomb for TMNT. You see several seeds of the Coalition there.
Quote from: Omega;1058557Think you mean Victor Lazlo? And correct. He originated in BTS. Rifts other connection is with After the Bomb for TMNT. You see several seeds of the Coalition there.
And the mutation rules for the Dog Boys.
RIFTs is both a genre mashup and a rules mashup. The inspiration can be seen in a lot of places.
Quote from: Omega;1058557Think you mean Victor Lazlo? And correct. He originated in BTS. Rifts other connection is with After the Bomb for TMNT. You see several seeds of the Coalition there.
Right, I mixed up the name with a Robotech character.
Quote from: Omega;1058557Think you mean Victor Lazlo? And correct. He originated in BTS. Rifts other connection is with After the Bomb for TMNT. You see several seeds of the Coalition there.
The name showed up first in pacesetter's "Sandman" (1985) ... dont remember if there was any connection
Not to be confused with "Lazlo Holyfeld". Smartest guy in the world. Lives in the steam-tunnels below Pacific University via the closet of Chris Knight - who might be the original Cyberknight.
I could be making this all up.
Edit: and yes it's perfectly natural to eat your jello naked if it's hot outside.
Quote from: tenbones;1058824Not to be confused with "Lazlo Holyfeld". Smartest guy in the world. Lives in the steam-tunnels below Pacific University via the closet of Chris Knight - who might be the original Cyberknight.
I could be making this all up.
Edit: and yes it's perfectly natural to eat your jello naked if it's hot outside.
That's "Real Genius" of you. :)
Maybee Kevin liked Casablanca?
Quote from: Omega;1058557Think you mean Victor Lazlo? And correct. He originated in BTS. Rifts other connection is with After the Bomb for TMNT. You see several seeds of the Coalition there.
And (I think it is called...) KLS Corporation which made the original Glitterboy, as written in Mutants in Orbit. The same corporation made laser resistant armor suits in Heroes Unlimited.
Quote from: everloss;1058944And (I think it is called...) KLS Corporation which made the original Glitterboy, as written in Mutants in Orbit. The same corporation made laser resistant armor suits in Heroes Unlimited.
Those are some interesting Easter Eggs. I wonder if Palladium has more of those?