I've got a group of murder hobo optimancers.  After a while, watching them fuck themselves over for the fastest possible solution is making it hard to help them.

For example:

Underwater, there is a glowing black mass of dark water off in the distance.  Party said nope, and bypassed.  It was a water demon who wanted sacrifices from the ship.  Bring enough they'd have gotten a very good weapon for undersea use.  The demon was also there to give them some on the adventure.  The demon would want some sacrifices from the tube and they'd get the weapon.  Its just a way to disable some powerful abilities for the boss.

Same adventure, they see the tubes with the desiccated bodies attached to tentacles and they are deep underwater.  They crack open the tube drowning the first creature in the tube.  Didn't think to use their abilities/spells to communicate telepathically first.  Nope, see tube, crack tube underwater, don't have a way for creature to breath underwater and let die.  They will most likely be able to disable the additional abilities the monster would get, they just won't get the best possible rewards.  Uga Bonga check.

I normally design content where they can fight, avoid or talk, but they are heavy on avoid and and fight to finish content fastest possible.  Suggestion on ways to get them to use their real world brain and not using a D20 solve everything? 

My personal style of play is load up on as much non-magical equipment and spell components, and play a wizard and make damn sure I've got a couple of utility spells loaded to find ways to avoid combat and save resources.  Why cast unseen servant when you can save it by giving your rope with a hook on it to the rogue and have him hook open the latch on the other side to drop the drawbridge.  Use that 10 foot with padding on the end and have the lead use it while walking to check for trip wires.  Oh, see the kitchen over there, hey rogue let me cast invis on you and you can poison their food.  That is how I like to play, I like combat as well but if I can use my real world brain to solve the problem rather than D20, so much more enjoyable.  But a lot of these new players, if its not on their character sheet, they ain't using it.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 05, 2024, 01:42:29 PMThat is how I like to play

It might be that they like to play differently. It doesn't necessarily make their way wrong (nor is your way wrong), just different. Are they having fun? Are you?

As long as you are running a system where the character sheet looks like a list of menu options, the players will play like that. Run an OSR system that isn't so push button. If you players refuse to play then get better players.

Start them off with very obvious, easy non-rolling solutions.  Once that has worked a few times they'll start looking for such solutions and might be able to find something that's not so obvious and easy and is a bit more interesting.

Having spells and non-magical equipment on your character sheet and using it is not really any different than a character having special abilities or whatnot on their character sheets.

And beyond that, some people don't like using their brains for fun. People have been hack and slashing (or slaying in Brit speak) and power gaming  since '75 and others have been complaining it just as long.

Quote from: JeremyR on August 05, 2024, 04:01:35 PMHaving spells and non-magical equipment on your character sheet and using it is not really any different than a character having special abilities or whatnot on their character sheets.

And beyond that, some people don't like using their brains for fun. People have been hack and slashing (or slaying in Brit speak) and power gaming  since '75 and others have been complaining it just as long.

Oh I get it, but it makes it hard to give any information.  And putting out a diary or scroll of what is going on after a while gets old because the players tend to kill everything. 

Knock the guy out and tie him down and use charm afterwards to get information.  When the DM gives you a hook use it.  If you think the guy is going to attack, agree to his terms as a "hireling" take him out of town, tie him down and charm him and get what he really was going to do to you. 

I give them plenty of combat, but my god, there are better ways of playing than exclusively combat.  If you can bypass an encounter without combat, you save resources.

Greetings!

In one game session in one of my campaigns, the group was traveling along a road in the Vallorean Empire, when they came across a group of young Ogres, and an older Ogre, hunting the nearby woods and fishing by the nearby river. The Ogres had a nice camp set up, and two of the adolescent Ogres greeted the approaching party, and offered them some roasted Deer meat that they had just hunted earlier in the morning.

One of the Player Characters--a Wizard--dropped a Fireball on the Ogre's campsite. Another Player Character, a Fighter, unsheathed his sword, and charged into a mounted attack, riding down one of the adolescent Ogres, killing him, while the other adolescent Ogre, a girl, was hacked down as she fled, screaming.

A third Player Character, a Wizard, didn't feel right about the entire situation, and restrained the rest of the group. Meanwhile, two other adolescent Ogres tried to fight back against the two attacking Players, but they too, were slaughtered. The older Ogre, the wounded girl Ogre, and one other Ogre, managed to escape into the woods.

The Player Group moved on, though were engaged in a fierce argument about morality and the LAW. Two game sessions went by, with the Player Group pursuing various adventures.

The Player Group was back in town, sleeping at a favourite Roadhouse.

In the predawn hours, the Roadhouse was assaulted by a Platoon of Imperial Legionnaires, a Centurion, three Vallorean Imperial Wizards, two Vallorean Priests, and four Witch Hunters.

Soon, the Player Group was arrested, and imprisoned. The two primary offending Characters were brutally tortured, interrogated, and stretched out on the wrack. At dawn, they were sentenced to be burned at the stake. Through exceptional efforts, at the last minute, the Vallorean authorities commuted the guilty Character's death sentence to being placed on probation, plus restitution work to benefit the local Vallorean Ogre community, and severe fines. Likewise, as accomplices, heavy fines were also levied against the rest of the party as well. The lead Witch Hunter growled at them, that the next time they thought they could slaughter and plunder Vallorean citizens, there would be no mercy, no leniency--and they would all be judged in the fire!

The rest of the group harassed and jibed the primary Characters for this huge fuck up for weeks afterwards. Beyond that experience, being heavily fined, tortured, and imprisoned, and very nearly executed--the Player Group was definitely more keen on approaching situations in a non-violent manner, and doing some investigation, questioning, and role-playing, instead of just fire balling and hacking away as their first response to any situation.

I, as the DM, didn't have to lecture them. The other players layed into them for being fucking murderhobos and stupid, brute violent fucks. It was epic! I certainly laughed. Lesson learned! The group was of course always wary and ready for action, but caution and better sense taught them to not reach for violence as their first response to every encounter. Doing so could certainly be very fatal to their Characters. They had also learned that even if such a situation was not fatal to them, they would nonetheless suffer severely, in being shamed, fined, punished, and potentially losing valuable allies and making bitter enemies unnecessarily.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2024, 05:04:05 PMGreetings!

In one game session in one of my campaigns, the group was traveling along a road in the Vallorean Empire, when they came across a group of young Ogres, and an older Ogre, hunting the nearby woods and fishing by the nearby river. The Ogres had a nice camp set up, and two of the adolescent Ogres greeted the approaching party, and offered them some roasted Deer meat that they had just hunted earlier in the morning.

...

A question on your setting ... Are ogres recognized as people and protected by the law?  And did the players know this?

If the players are having fun, you're doing your job right as a GM.

I try not to judge players on whether I think their plans or actions are good. Rather I try to be impartial on whether they're successful or not.

Quote from: Mishihari on August 05, 2024, 05:09:55 PM

Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2024, 05:04:05 PMGreetings!

In one game session in one of my campaigns, the group was traveling along a road in the Vallorean Empire, when they came across a group of young Ogres, and an older Ogre, hunting the nearby woods and fishing by the nearby river. The Ogres had a nice camp set up, and two of the adolescent Ogres greeted the approaching party, and offered them some roasted Deer meat that they had just hunted earlier in the morning.

...

A question on your setting ... Are ogres recognized as people and protected by the law?  And did the players know this?

Greetings!

Yes, my friend. There are "Civilized" Ogres--several tribes have been embraced and civilized by the Vallorean Empire and given Vallorean citizenship. There are also, of course, savage, barbarian tribes of Ogres.

Indeed, the Players were all aware that this was a distinction within the Vallorean Empire. I shadowed this fact by the Ogres that were encountered were dressed like civilized fishermen and hunters--and they greeted the party in a friendly manner, and they themselves did not appear to be armed for war, or make any attempt at attacking or threatening the Player Group.

The one Player Character Wizard--a woman--picked up on these little details. The other Player Wizard and a Player Fighter did not, though. They were far more convinced by the belief that "All Ogres are evil monsters and must be ruthlessly destroyed!"

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

As a GM, expect that the optimal or even logical way to do anything is never going to happen. 

It's the nature of the game that players free will result in unexpected solutions.  Often much more elaborate and time consuming than required.

For example; players spent time searching a room for a key to unlock the door so they could progress thru the creepy, abandoned mansion.   1.  They could just kick in the door.  2.  The door was unlocked already. 

1. For anything outside of standard combat, don't allow the players to tell you what they are rolling, ever.  Instead, they tell you what they want to do.  Then you decide if a roll is warranted.  Might be a gimme.  Might be beyond their abilities.  Might be a roll, but not the one they wanted.  Be ruthlessly fair about this. 

2. Either play a game that is deadly, or change the one you have to be more so.  Players that bypass everything and look for the easiest way out on every thing they do engage with is a sign of trying to break the game for a win instead of playing it for a win.  It's often a side effect of boredom.  So ratchet up the danger of the system.

3. As a corollary to #2, ratchet down the deadliness of the encounters.  Or at least many of them.  You can still have some that are killers, especially if telegraphed.  Players need a chance to make mistakes, or even fail.  Because avoiding everything can also be a sign of too much worry, because every encounter is risky.  If most encounters are something they can cope with, they'll be more willing to try different things, and maybe even run if it starts to go south.

4. All of the above works better if you have operational resource depletion, of some kind or another. 

5. Use lots of wandering monsters and give little to no experience for dealing with them.  Exactly how depends on the situation and the game.  What I do is set up my wandering monster table(s) for the area, judge its overall deadliness, then give XP for that, when the party adventures in the area.  Sometimes they get lucky.  Sometimes they get hammered.  Either way, they get the same XP.  Be explicit that this is how it works (multiple times, until it sinks in).  If the party is messing around, they get more and more wandering monsters, that rapidly become worth nothing.  If the party is engaged, they maximize their returns.  This also conveniently gives a channel for those players trying to game the system.  In other words, if they are going to game it, set it up so that gaming it probably gives you the result you want. 

Death is always on the table in my campaign. 

I've got one player who is a born lemming.  One was by an obvious cursed object and the party never thought: "wow, that's a really powerful adamantine jar, the arcane trickster can raise Frost Giant Zombies, and he no longer does any sneak attacks", by the time he had his 3rd Frost Giant Zombie, he turned on the party and he loved playing the bad guy.  Just saying, there were 5 other guys and not one of them thought WTF?  The DM is going to give the player three three CR9 undead doing 28 a hit two times + freezing stare for range, yeah that makes sense.  Its like giving a player three pet young red dragons and the character no longer uses any of his abilities and is really quite and focused on killing certain mobs to raise them from the dead.

Now compared to a regular 5E campaign, yeah this is lethal, for a regular D&D campaign this is normal.  Out of 6 players, those who play sane, this is for two years of play where players are level 12:

2 no deaths
1 one death, jumped into certain death without looking
1 two deaths (casual player, was face tanking giants in medium armor with no buffs for fun as a cleric, forgot the other death)
1 two deaths (was a newbie, died like a newbie)
1 11 deaths, he's the lemming, never had a player like that before in 30 years of play.

There isn't excessive deaths, its 5E player grasping defeat out of the jaws of victory because they minimize all risks humanly possible not to lose.  As long as buffs and debuffs are used its easy.  The party really went into a DPS glass cannon race for two players, and one big tankie and then some support and balanced spellcaster.

I'm just doing some after action questions in discord to try to get them to think about play more.  Its 5E and the fucking abilities they give them, take all those skills away and they'd have to use their damn brains more.  It is what it is.

Honestly, both your examples look like very typical player behavior to me. "Nope"-ing your way out of an evil looking underwater miasma sounds like playing with your brain. The other one is a little dumb, but not thinking through the consequences is classic D&D player stuff.

Looking at the broader issues, I'd agree with others on here that to some extent this might just be who your players are, and its a "love it or leave it" situation. That said, I am a firm believer that most players will respond to the incentives they receive in the game.

If you want your players to take the "talk" option instead of "attack" or "avoid", you might have to give them goals that can't be achieved by the other two.

You probably also have to go out of your way to signpost that being an option. You're likely trying to counter decades of conditioning from other games, so needing to do a bit of handholding is to be expected.

A trick videogame developers sometimes use to signpost an NPC which is potentially --but not necessarily-- hostile is to put them in positions that make them look non-threatening. In a videogame that can be as simple having them sitting down or introducing them with their back to the player. In an RPG maybe give them some extremely innocuous activity to do like fishing or gardening? The non-threatening appearance trick works with situations too. If your sea demon instead resided in a luminescent crystal grotto, that might be more likely to coax your players in to check it out.

A technique I've used a few times is to let the NPC initiate the encounter. NPCs should think like real people, and real people tend to want to avoid fights to the death, so even monsters stronger than the PCs will sometimes be afraid of them. If you can arrange their opening line to communicate "I will fight you but I'd rather not", that can get the PCs wheels turning about their other options, especially if the fight looks like one they might not win. 

EDIT: In addition to letting NPCs start the encounter non-violently, you can also let them talk during encounters to signal a willingness to de-escalate. This is particularly available in D&D, where the NPC losing their first few hit points in the early rounds can be written off as flesh wounds they'd still be willing to forgive.  If your players not only attack a stranger, but refuse to put up their arms when the stranger keeps protesting they don't want to fight, then they're just sociopaths and you're probably out of luck. Obviously this option is off the table once your players start racking up kills in the encounter. At that point your best friend is homebrew rules that allow them to escape and later impose all those consequences other comments are talking about.

FURTHER EDIT: Also, give your NPCs friends and allies. If players get the sense they're treading on a complicated web of allegiances and relationships, and any NPC might have powerful friends who will avenge thoughtless cruelty, they should start being more careful who they piss off.

Then you need to make sure the incentives back up the other option. If the XP and loot rewards are reliably better for fighting than talking, that's what your players will always do. Likewise, you can't use this stuff to trick them. It only takes a few of instances of an apparently friendly NPC stabbing them in the back for players to opt for "shoot first; ask questions later". I'm not saying you can't ever do it, but that trick should be used extremely sparingly.

First, I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying this seems to work when I GM. 

I make the world react to the behavior of the PCs.  Once the players figure out that 60-70% of what's going on around them is a direct reaction to their behavior, they start playing differently.  If they come to a city gate, they know the guards are going to react to them based on how they behave in the moment and how well they've curated their reputations.

Here's an actual gaming example from an adventure I was running.  One of the players found a way to sneak into an orc base and he poisoned the stew and stabbed a few of them in their sleep.  Later, when the party was retreating from an encounter that went bad, they bumped into the chief of the orcs and his personal retinue who had been using a dog to track the killer.  The player that had done the poisoning put two and two together rather quickly and was really impressed that it clearly wasn't a scripted moment from the written adventure but me looking at everything and thinking about how this would play out as logically as I could.  The entire game changed after that with the whole table planning and discussing about what possible ramifications might happen from certain decisions they made.  I loved running that table.

I believe that a lot of modern gaming thought processes come from video gaming.  In my mind, it's my job as a GM to recognize that and teach them that there are no actual scripted responses, only scripted personalities.