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Wife and I watched the trilogy back to back recently and we both got really excited about playing a Middle Earth campaign. Problem is, I have no idea which to get.

There's The One Ring, which I've heard great things about. I think there's something called MERP? I think there's multiple 5e versions of lotr but I have no idea if they're any good. I've also read that Against the Dark master is basically middle earth that's highly tactical?

Anyways, can you all give some insight on the pros and cons of each system that tries to capture Middle Earth?

Thanks

My first pick would be the system from ICE's Lord Of the Rings Adventure Game.  A really slick little 2d6 system with character templates.

My next pick would probably be MERP, mind you MERP is really a lot like The Hobbit and not quite so much Lord of the Rings.  People complain about the magic but it's really low key and slow to develop.

Runequest spirit magic might actually fit fairly well when you consider that Middle Earth is swarming with invisible spirits of creation.

Rolemaster would probably do okay if you restricted it to Animists and Mentalists for spell casting.  The other magic using careers are too flamboyant.

I wholeheartedly liked Decipher's version, but it got knee-capped by licensing issues. They weren't allowed to use the Silmarillion, and the line ended after just a handful of books.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 29, 2023, 12:27:48 AM
I wholeheartedly liked Decipher's version, but it got knee-capped by licensing issues. They weren't allowed to use the Silmarillion, and the line ended after just a handful of books.

I haven't really liked any of the official licensed RPGs as fitting Tolkien, so I ended up using Savage Worlds for my most recent Middle Earth game. I had a thread on it recently:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/

I played in a short campaign of the Decipher RPG, and I liked some parts of it, but I felt like it was clearly a rush job and had some obvious errors. This was the conclusion of my old review of it:

QuoteOverall, I was disappointed in this book especially over a number of fairly basic errors. For example, the balance of edges, order abilities, and skills is fundamentally broken. Some problems were addressed in the errata, but many others were not. For example, the weapon damages are pretty screwy even after extensive errata. On the good side, the 24-page survey of lands and magic system are nicely flavorful. However, especially because of the restrictions on licensing, the book is of limited utility for Tolkien background. In short, if you are looking for a balanced and coherent game engine, then you should look elsewhere. With the errata, some rulings, and some learning, it is at least functional as the backdrop for a story-focused chronicle, but nothing more.

         Compared to the previous effort (ICE's MERP from 1984), it does have some clear improvements. The basic system is simpler and faster to resolve, and the magic system is more flavorful. It also has a larger and slicker core rulebook. On the other hand, MERP has dozens of high-quality supplements covering huge amounts of background. LOTR will need a long to catch up in this department, and it will probably never even be able to due to licensing restrictions.

Full review here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Wife and I watched the trilogy back to back recently and we both got really excited about playing a Middle Earth campaign. Problem is, I have no idea which to get.

Adventures in Middle Earth which unfortunately is out of print. Followed by the Lord of the Rings RPG. While they both use the 5e system it has been reworked into a Middle Earth RPG with new classes, items, creatures, and so on. The same adventures and region guides are shared with  The One Ring RPG. But are different printings so you only get the AiME/LoTR RPG information in the one you buy.

The 5e version are far more approachable than The One Ring RPG and far more deadly than a bog standard 5e campaign. The biggest things that a newcomer has to get used to with either AiME or LoTR RPG is the lack of spell casters. Magic is present but it low key for the most part represented by magical abilities. 

The other is the idea of the Shadow. Similar to insanity in Call of Cthulu, Shadow is a mechanic that represents the fact that Middle Earth has been tainted by Morgoth. Now controlled by Sauron it is a supernatural force that corrupts individuals particularly those who experience times of stress or do evil acts. It is not an alignment mechanic although players will initially react to it like it is one. The mechanics have ways for characters to handle or mitigate the Shadow that they experience.  Like Call of Cthulu and insanity sometimes it feels like it is a race to see if evil can be vanquished before the Shadow becomes too much.

Overall the writers did an excellent job of adapting the 5e mechanics to create something that feels very Tolkienian.

I have played MERP and The One Ring.

MERP has many great adventure modules set in Middle-Earth, so that's one reason to use this system (or Rolemaster, which is compatible). I love the work they put into the adventures and the cover art. But the MERP system itself does not really scream Tolkien, and some feel the magic system was actually not a good match.

The One Ring does aim to be much closer to Tolkien's style from the get-go. Many of the rules are actually based on Tolkien quotes. They also try to get something of the feel of the stories in the game, include special symbols on the dice taken from Tolkien's runes etc. etc. The modules are OK, but often a bit railroady. I would also say that the One Ring might be more for the people who love the books, a bit more than the movies (compared to Decipher), but that's just a minor thing.

AiME was a competente re-work of 5e, I liked reading it (never played it).

Haven't read Against the Darkmaster but seems to be a good MERP clone. Free quickstater:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/273729/Against-the-Darkmaster--Quickstart

I, personally, had much fun with MERP but am not sure it is a great fit for Middle-earth.

TOR seems to nail the "feel" very well, with modern mechanics. Again, haven't played it.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 11:47:14 AM

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Wife and I watched the trilogy back to back recently and we both got really excited about playing a Middle Earth campaign. Problem is, I have no idea which to get.

Adventures in Middle Earth which unfortunately is out of print. Followed by the Lord of the Rings RPG. While they both use the 5e system it has been reworked into a Middle Earth RPG with new classes, items, creatures, and so on. The same adventures and region guides are shared with  The One Ring RPG. But are different printings so you only get the AiME/LoTR RPG information in the one you buy.

I have to agree with Rob here. Here is my chain of thought:

(1) 5E is the most popular edition out there, so it's easy to find players.

(2) There are two 5E versions of Middle-earth gaming out there. Cubicle-7's "Adventures in Middle-earth" is a great game but out of print and buying the books can be quite expensive. Free League's "Lord of the Rings RPG" has some neat changes (new classes, level cap at 10, etc.) and is a great alternative. Both of the two 5E games were/are done by the same developers who did The One Ring, only with 5E mechanics.

(3) Products from the two 5E games are, I think, pretty easy to work with one another. AiME has adventures based on Mirkwood, the Lonely Mountain, and other regions in that part of Middle-earth. LotRR has adventures based in the Shire and Eriador, with Moria due to come out in the spring. Between the two games there is a lot of 5E content.

So what about the other options? I have played many.

(i) ICE's adventure game is really fun and is a trimmed down version of MERP. MERP is a pretty complex game, but is a simpler version of RoleMaster. MERP always felt pretty sterile and generic to me, but the MERP modules are really full of great content. No matter what game you go with, check out the MERP material for inspiration. The adventure game is more limiting but more fun (to me) than running all-out MERP.

(ii) Decipher's LotR game is one I played a lot also. Like ICE, Decipher put out both an adventure game and a full RPG. I found the RPG to be somewhat limiting because of the 2d6 mechanic, as characters like Aragorn quickly maxed out stats and "broke" the bell curve too badly. If that is kept under control it's a fine system and has a nice Middle-earth feel to it.

(iii) The One Ring is fantastic overall, but it's hard for me to find folks who want to learn a new system. I can do either AiME or LotRR with 5E mechanics and can achieve a similar goal.

Just my two coppers.

Play MERP if you like RPGs. If you want to wank off and pretend you're LARPing in Middle Earth as a renfaire furry, The One Ring is probably better.

I had some fun some time back with the free Legends of Middle Earth. Should be freely downloadable here:

http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/legends-of-middle-earth

Quote from: Brad on November 29, 2023, 03:32:46 PM
Play MERP if you like RPGs. If you want to wank off and pretend you're LARPing in Middle Earth as a renfaire furry, The One Ring is probably better.

I have to wonder, why this reaction to The One Ring?

None of my suggestions are licensed Middle Earth games, but both are obviously very ME centric:

The Hero's Journey Fantasy Roleplaying by James Spahn of Barrel Rider Games. It is a take on White Box S&W designed to create a more quest style experience. It also tones down magic some with a brief spell list but each spell has multiple effects a caster can choose from.  However, even the options for Master level spells are tame by high level D&D. For example, the master spell "A Hope Ever Enduring" allows for +5 to defense and each affected person can name one enemy who will have disadvantage against that character for the duration OR immunity to Despair plus a +2 on all attack rolls against a enemy requiring a Despair save to attack OR one magical object of the caster's choice seeks to function although a holder of the item can save at disadvantage to avoid it. All of these last 1 minute per caster level.

Those all seem to fit things Gandalf or Aragorn could do.

Balrogs and Bagginsess is a classic D&D system game whose inspiration should be obvious.  Roles (classes) are pretty lose and it is pretty much straight D&D magic with a much pruned spell list. I'm less familiar with it but it might be worth a look.

Going further afield there is a PBtA games, Fellowship, designed to give a grand quest feel. I got it in a Bundle of Holding along with supplements and it looks interesting if PBtA is your cup of tea.  I'm still on the fence about it, like some iterations better than others.

Finally, this is much further but is a game with some interesting ideas I think should get more looks even if just for mining, Fantasia: Book of All Knowing. It is a perfect example of  Edwards called a fantasy heartbreaker clearing descending from D&D but long on its own path. An interesting thing that tones the game down is the need for in-game points from previous characters to create a magic using character in most case. I have a soft spot for it as one of 2-3 FHB I'd love to run so I can recommend it as much as the first two, but it is out there.

Quote from: finarvyn on November 29, 2023, 01:21:47 PM

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 11:47:14 AM

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Wife and I watched the trilogy back to back recently and we both got really excited about playing a Middle Earth campaign. Problem is, I have no idea which to get.

Adventures in Middle Earth which unfortunately is out of print. Followed by the Lord of the Rings RPG. While they both use the 5e system it has been reworked into a Middle Earth RPG with new classes, items, creatures, and so on. The same adventures and region guides are shared with  The One Ring RPG. But are different printings so you only get the AiME/LoTR RPG information in the one you buy.

I have to agree with Rob here. Here is my chain of thought:

(1) 5E is the most popular edition out there, so it's easy to find players.

(2) There are two 5E versions of Middle-earth gaming out there. Cubicle-7's "Adventures in Middle-earth" is a great game but out of print and buying the books can be quite expensive. Free League's "Lord of the Rings RPG" has some neat changes (new classes, level cap at 10, etc.) and is a great alternative. Both of the two 5E games were/are done by the same developers who did The One Ring, only with 5E mechanics.

(3) Products from the two 5E games are, I think, pretty easy to work with one another. AiME has adventures based on Mirkwood, the Lonely Mountain, and other regions in that part of Middle-earth. LotRR has adventures based in the Shire and Eriador, with Moria due to come out in the spring. Between the two games there is a lot of 5E content.

So what about the other options? I have played many.

(i) ICE's adventure game is really fun and is a trimmed down version of MERP. MERP is a pretty complex game, but is a simpler version of RoleMaster. MERP always felt pretty sterile and generic to me, but the MERP modules are really full of great content. No matter what game you go with, check out the MERP material for inspiration. The adventure game is more limiting but more fun (to me) than running all-out MERP.

(ii) Decipher's LotR game is one I played a lot also. Like ICE, Decipher put out both an adventure game and a full RPG. I found the RPG to be somewhat limiting because of the 2d6 mechanic, as characters like Aragorn quickly maxed out stats and "broke" the bell curve too badly. If that is kept under control it's a fine system and has a nice Middle-earth feel to it.

(iii) The One Ring is fantastic overall, but it's hard for me to find folks who want to learn a new system. I can do either AiME or LotRR with 5E mechanics and can achieve a similar goal.

Just my two coppers.

Which 5e game do you prefer? Looking at eBay and I found a couple used AiME core books for not that much more than the Free League 5e book. Are they both pretty equal in quality?

As others have noted, I think it depends a lot on you and your players and what you like for your experience. 

MERP is probably my second all-time favorite RPG and for the depth of world building and gaming options for Middle Earth, none of the other games come close.  They choose their default setting as Mid Third Age, which I see as a plus, but there are options to play in other eras, even the First or Second Ages.  And there's one 4th Age campaign module.  But the MERP stuff is out of print and pricey and the rules, while not that complicated, can be challenging for some not used to ICE games.  It's also VERY lethal.  Some people complain about it being high magic, but it has lots of mechanics built in that will limit players' use of magic as it can attract unwanted attention very fast.  Some of their maps & settings are fantastic.  They stretch the lore quite a bit, but that also gives you plenty of freedom.  None of the other Middle Earth RPGs offer this kind of flexibility.

Decipher LOTR is basically based on the movies.  So if you want a more cinematic feel, go with that, though the books are pretty pricey.

A lot of people like TOR, whether in its original version from Cubicle Seven, or the current Free League second edition.  We hated both versions.  While the books look great and have the feel of Middle Earth, the mechanics really get in the way of roleplaying by reducing nearly everything to dice rolls.  And they slavishly try to mimic the books.  I know the setting well enough not to need all these unnecessary intrusions in my game.

The 5e versions are therefore better if you either already know 5e, or want to adapt them to something else.  They have different classes and are low magic and some of the more annoying mechanics from TOR are altered or toned down.  The production values, especially in the current edition are pretty high.  We've found that the Free League version (Lord of the Rings Roleplaying) is super easy to convert to Castles & Crusades.  That allows us to ignore the mechanics we don't like and incorporate stuff that we do into a system we know and like.  One downside is that the adventures published to this point are pretty vanilla and railroady.  Another issue is that they're set between the events of The Hobbit and LOTR.  This can be a feature, especially for more casual Tolkien fans, but it can also be limiting if you're concerned about canon. 

Quote from: Monero on November 29, 2023, 08:38:52 PM

Which 5e game do you prefer? Looking at eBay and I found a couple used AiME core books for not that much more than the Free League 5e book. Are they both pretty equal in quality?

If you ask me, the only reason to go 5e is if you're already into D&D. I'm sure that could make sense though, if you don't feel like yet another system to deal with. It DOES look like they took a lot from The One Ring (and not just the art, there's Shadow Points and being Miserable are obviously taken from One Ring). So I suspect some of the objections to One Ring above seem like they would apply to Adventures in Middle-Earth too (if I understand what Brad is hinting at correctly).

If you don't mind a new system but like levels, classes, and such, I would much rather go with MERP but that's me.
And finally, if you don't mind a fresh view at a different RPG system that is built with LotR and the Hobbit in mind, then The One Ring is actually very nice.

Quote from: Trond on November 29, 2023, 10:27:27 PM

If you ask me, the only reason to go 5e is if you're already into D&D. I'm sure that could make sense though, if you don't feel like yet another system to deal with. It DOES look like they took a lot from The One Ring (and not just the art, there's Shadow Points and being Miserable are obviously taken from One Ring). So I suspect some of the objections to One Ring above seem like they would apply to Adventures in Middle-Earth too (if I understand what Brad is hinting at correctly).

I ran three campaigns using AiME. AiME is more balanced in how it handles combat, roleplaying, etc than TOR. Yes Shadow and being Miserable are there but like I said they feel organic to how Middle Earth works. Much in the same way going insane in Call of Cthulu feel organic to their setting.

The fact is that a Middle Earth campaign demands more roleplaying than a traditional D&D campaign. But if want to do something more that is hack slash like being on the frontier of Gondor fighting the forces of Mordor, AiME has the covered as well. AiME doesn't skimp on the combat abilities.


Frankly I don't see what MERP brings to the table other than nostalgia. TOR/AiME sourcebooks and adventures are far superior to what ICE did. The AiME version has far more interesting stuff as far as combat and magic goes than anything I've seen in what ICE did with MERPs.




If you don't mind a new system but like levels, classes, and such, I would much rather go with MERP but that's me.
And finally, if you don't mind a fresh view at a different RPG system that is built with LotR and the Hobbit in mind, then The One Ring is actually very nice.
[/quote]

Quote from: PulpHerb on November 29, 2023, 08:04:57 PM
The Hero's Journey Fantasy Roleplaying by James Spahn of Barrel Rider Games.

Fun fact, James Spahn was involved in the writing of AiME and various TOR and AiME supplements.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 29, 2023, 12:27:48 AM
I wholeheartedly liked Decipher's version, but it got knee-capped by licensing issues. They weren't allowed to use the Silmarillion...

Every Middle Earth RPG, from ICE to TOR, has used the same exact license (The Saul Zentz Company d/b/a/ Middle Earth Enterprises.)

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 11:00:29 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on November 29, 2023, 08:04:57 PM
The Hero's Journey Fantasy Roleplaying by James Spahn of Barrel Rider Games.

Fun fact, James Spahn was involved in the writing of AiME and various TOR and AiME supplements.

I did not know that but knowing THJFR I'm not surprised.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 10:58:47 PM

I ran three campaigns using AiME. AiME is more balanced in how it handles combat, roleplaying, etc than TOR. Yes Shadow and being Miserable are there but like I said they feel organic to how Middle Earth works. Much in the same way going insane in Call of Cthulu feel organic to their setting.

The fact is that a Middle Earth campaign demands more roleplaying than a traditional D&D campaign. But if want to do something more that is hack slash like being on the frontier of Gondor fighting the forces of Mordor, AiME has the covered as well. AiME doesn't skimp on the combat abilities.


Frankly I don't see what MERP brings to the table other than nostalgia. TOR/AiME sourcebooks and adventures are far superior to what ICE did. The AiME version has far more interesting stuff as far as combat and magic goes than anything I've seen in what ICE did with MERPs.

There's some truth to MERP and nostalgia. I had to tweak the system to make it fit my visison of Middle Earth. Still, we always had more fun with MERP/Rolemaster than with any iteration of D&D. Again, just my experience.

What do you mean by more balanced roleplaying though?

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Anyways, can you all give some insight on the pros and cons of each system that tries to capture Middle Earth?

Another option is "Against the Darkmaster"which is an update of sorts for the old ICE MERP game from 1991.
You can download the free quickstart here:

https://www.vsdarkmaster.com/quickstart-and-downloads/

Edit: Eric Diaz already mentioned it upthread.

Quote from: Trond on November 29, 2023, 07:31:28 PM
I have to wonder, why this reaction to The One Ring?

The aesthetic is awesome, but it's essentially a storygame when you get right down to it. Probably one of the biggest disappointments in a game I've ever had, honestly.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 10:58:47 PM
The fact is that a Middle Earth campaign demands more roleplaying than a traditional D&D campaign. But if want to do something more that is hack slash like being on the frontier of Gondor fighting the forces of Mordor, AiME has the covered as well. AiME doesn't skimp on the combat abilities.

Define "roleplaying"...explain why traditional D&D has less "roleplaying" using this definition than other games, and why Middle Earth requires more of this "roleplaying". Killing orcs and taking their stuff is just as much "roleplaying" as giving soliloquies in the court of Arnor.

QuoteFrankly I don't see what MERP brings to the table other than nostalgia.

It's an actual game, for one. It's fun to play, so there's that. I know fun is a nebulous concept in general, but I always had fun playing it so...yeah. Whatever I guess?

QuoteTOR/AiME sourcebooks and adventures are far superior to what ICE did. The AiME version has far more interesting stuff as far as combat and magic goes than anything I've seen in what ICE did with MERPs.

This is patently absurd...you've got to be fucking trolling at this point.

QuoteIf you don't mind a new system but like levels, classes, and such, I would much rather go with MERP but that's me.
And finally, if you don't mind a fresh view at a different RPG system that is built with LotR and the Hobbit in mind, then The One Ring is actually very nice.

Frankly I don't see what The One Ring brings to the table other than aesthestic.

Quote from: Monero on November 29, 2023, 08:38:52 PMWhich 5e game do you prefer? Looking at eBay and I found a couple used AiME core books for not that much more than the Free League 5e book. Are they both pretty equal in quality?

I've played more AiMe and enjoy it because it's better for Middle-earth than regular 5E. Glossy pages with color artwork, if that matters. I'm not as happy with the scale, which extends to level 20.

I think I like the Free League one better, but I haven't gotten to play it much yet. The level scale, which caps at 10, is more in line with my style of play since most of my regular 5E games end somewhere around there anyway. I like the artwork of LotRR, which is B&W line art, and I like the heavy paper feel of the book.

Picking one I would go with Free League's LotRR, but I am hoping to steal elements from both and if you can get an AiMe core book at a decent price you might go for it. (Keep in mind, however, that AiMe has both a Player's Book and a DM's book, so the "full" rules sort of require both. LotRR is all in one book.)

Quote from: Aglondir on November 29, 2023, 11:52:25 PM

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Anyways, can you all give some insight on the pros and cons of each system that tries to capture Middle Earth?

Another option is "Against the Darkmaster"which is an update of sorts for the old ICE MERP game from 1991.
You can download the free quickstart here:

https://www.vsdarkmaster.com/quickstart-and-downloads/

Edit: Eric Diaz already mentioned it upthread.

Yeah, not so sure about this one.  I grabbed Darkmaster when it came out, hoping to get newer players into a MERP style experience.  And while it does evoke some of that, the 500 plus page rulebook is rather convoluted and character creation is even slower than in MERP, which is saying something.  This is not helped by the fact that there are mathematical errors in the sample characters' sheets that don't align with RAW.

And they add a couple whiny mechanics like "passion" that I just find off-putting, along with their weird punk-rock lesbian elf PC images and the like.  The production values are nice, though.  Strangely, however, when they started putting out their own setting material, they went Arthurian and some of it (just what I saw in previews; I didn't buy it) seemed to diverge from the tone of the main rulebook.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 11:00:29 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on November 29, 2023, 08:04:57 PM
The Hero's Journey Fantasy Roleplaying by James Spahn of Barrel Rider Games.

Fun fact, James Spahn was involved in the writing of AiME and various TOR and AiME supplements.

   Including the Starter Set for TOR.

   I own almost the entire line for Hero's Journey, and while I haven't played it, 2nd Edition looks quite promising for Tolkien/Lewis/Alexander/Cooper-style fantasy of various flavors. (The 1st Edition version, which hews closer to D&D tropes, looks like it would be great for Dragon Quest. :) )

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM

Quote from: Trond on November 29, 2023, 07:31:28 PM
I have to wonder, why this reaction to The One Ring?

The aesthetic is awesome, but it's essentially a storygame when you get right down to it. Probably one of the biggest disappointments in a game I've ever had, honestly.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 10:58:47 PM
The fact is that a Middle Earth campaign demands more roleplaying than a traditional D&D campaign. But if want to do something more that is hack slash like being on the frontier of Gondor fighting the forces of Mordor, AiME has the covered as well. AiME doesn't skimp on the combat abilities.

Define "roleplaying"...explain why traditional D&D has less "roleplaying" using this definition than other games, and why Middle Earth requires more of this "roleplaying". Killing orcs and taking their stuff is just as much "roleplaying" as giving soliloquies in the court of Arnor.

QuoteFrankly I don't see what MERP brings to the table other than nostalgia.

It's an actual game, for one. It's fun to play, so there's that. I know fun is a nebulous concept in general, but I always had fun playing it so...yeah. Whatever I guess?

QuoteTOR/AiME sourcebooks and adventures are far superior to what ICE did. The AiME version has far more interesting stuff as far as combat and magic goes than anything I've seen in what ICE did with MERPs.

This is patently absurd...you've got to be fucking trolling at this point.

QuoteIf you don't mind a new system but like levels, classes, and such, I would much rather go with MERP but that's me.
And finally, if you don't mind a fresh view at a different RPG system that is built with LotR and the Hobbit in mind, then The One Ring is actually very nice.

Frankly I don't see what The One Ring brings to the table other than aesthestic.

For us, both editions of TOR feel much more like board games than RPGs.  They claim to emphasize roleplaying, but it's mostly handling through a bunch of dice rolls and consultation of tables.  The journey rules are freaking awful.  Roll a bunch of dice to predetermine how your PCs will feel after the journey.  And the PCs have to pre-select roles for the journey and IIRC, there are rolls for each of them.  Why not just have the GM and players arrive at that through roleplaying it out?  The council rules are pretty much the same.  Roll a bunch of dice to determine success.  I guess this makes sense given that the lead designer was a board game designer first.

Quote from: Trond on November 29, 2023, 11:46:43 PM
What do you mean by more balanced roleplaying though?

If what a player is mainly interested is combat, then AiME has much of the details standard 5e has when it comes to the martial classes. The same with the monsters and NPCs. ToR has its own approach to combat.

I get into specific of AiME here
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2016/09/adventures-in-middle-earth-review.html

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM
Define "roleplaying"...explain why traditional D&D has less "roleplaying" using this definition than other games, and why Middle Earth requires more of this "roleplaying". Killing orcs and taking their stuff is just as much "roleplaying" as giving soliloquies in the court of Arnor.

Nice polemic and also a bullshit question.

AiME is about playing charactersin Middle Earth thus it has more detail than various D&D editions to handle other types of roleplaying in Middle Earth outside of adventuring like killing orcs and taking their shit. Things like NPCs motivations, player character motivations, and so on. Many of the character options are not combat oriented and so on. Magic is low-key but pervasive.

Monsters are tougher for the CR and abilities that inflict 5e conditions are more frequent than standard 5e. Resulting in combat that leaves the PCs debilitated even when they win. Thus PCs being motivated to come up with alternative tactics other than traditional hack-n-slash.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM
It's an actual game, for one. It's fun to play, so there's that. I know fun is a nebulous concept in general, but I always had fun playing it so...yeah. Whatever I guess?

Hey if all you want to do is a Moria Run, Helms Deep, Pelennor Fields, Black Gate battle adventure path have at it. But if you want something where the rules that support the feel of what Tolkien wrote that is approachable then AIME is the way to go.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM
This is patently absurd...you've got to be fucking trolling at this point.

I owned and used both. Can you say the same? Frankly other than Pete Fenlon overland maps, I always found the various ICE MERP supplements pieces of shit when stacked against Harn material.  And the team behind ToR 1e/AiME are far better at the Tolkien lore than the MERP team was.

Quote from: estar on November 30, 2023, 09:56:21 AM
Nice polemic and also a bullshit question.

No, sorry. You can't say a game requires MORE ROLEPLAYING than D&D when D&D, by definition, defined roleplaying. IDGAF what you think, D&D has just as much roleplaying as any other game. Now, if you have some other definition of "roleplaying," please provide it.

QuoteAiME is about playing charactersin Middle Earth

So is MERP. I mean, they literally both have Middle-Earth in the fucking names.

QuoteHey if all you want to do is a Moria Run, Helms Deep, Pelennor Fields, Black Gate battle adventure path have at it. But if you want something where the rules that support the feel of what Tolkien wrote that is approachable then AIME is the way to go.

I think AiME is pure garbage compared to MERP, and this statement is 100% opinion. Sorry to burst your bubble.

QuoteI owned and used both. Can you say the same?

Uh...yes? I mean, what a fucking pure faggot answer. Seriously.

So basically your answer boils down to, "I like this more, so it's better." I'm doing the same thing, but also can back up my statements with the FACT that MERP supplements are better because they have way better art and stats for Ringil.

EDIT: If it matters (it doesn't) I got rid of all my non-MERP stuff last year. This includes every single Decipher book, a complete set of The One Ring, and all the Adventures in Middle-Earth stuff. I found none of it to actually be compelling, but at least MERP has a cool gritty vibe.

Quote from: Persimmon on November 30, 2023, 09:03:02 AM
For us, both editions of TOR feel much more like board games than RPGs.  They claim to emphasize roleplaying, but it's mostly handling through a bunch of dice rolls and consultation of tables.  The journey rules are freaking awful.  Roll a bunch of dice to predetermine how your PCs will feel after the journey.  And the PCs have to pre-select roles for the journey and IIRC, there are rolls for each of them.  Why not just have the GM and players arrive at that through roleplaying it out?  The council rules are pretty much the same.  Roll a bunch of dice to determine success.  I guess this makes sense given that the lead designer was a board game designer first.

Nahh, estar here thinks it's a great game and you're just wrong. Sorry.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM
The aesthetic is awesome, but it's essentially a storygame when you get right down to it. Probably one of the biggest disappointments in a game I've ever had, honestly.

And here comes the dreaded "storygame" argument again. What definition are you using this time? The players certainly don't have much power over the setting, which is one definition I have heard. In some ways they have less of these "fluid" options than, say, Savage Worlds or Fate. There's "Hope", but I think that fits the setting beautifully.

Quote from: Persimmon on November 30, 2023, 09:03:02 AM

For us, both editions of TOR feel much more like board games than RPGs.  They claim to emphasize roleplaying, but it's mostly handling through a bunch of dice rolls and consultation of tables.  The journey rules are freaking awful.  Roll a bunch of dice to predetermine how your PCs will feel after the journey.  And the PCs have to pre-select roles for the journey and IIRC, there are rolls for each of them.  Why not just have the GM and players arrive at that through roleplaying it out?  The council rules are pretty much the same.  Roll a bunch of dice to determine success.  I guess this makes sense given that the lead designer was a board game designer first.

Well, Gygax was a board game designer first too. Yes, there is a lot of finicky little mechanics, but I find they are really easy to skip if you don't need them. I personally never used all the details in, say, Rolemaster, either (in fact, I find the full gamut of armor penalties etc unplayable), and with AD&D I wouldn't even try. If you want to flesh out the traveling, then roleplay through the whole thing. Use or simplify as needed. That's what roleplaying gamers have always done since the very beginning.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
No, sorry. You can't say a game requires MORE ROLEPLAYING than D&D when D&D, by definition, defined roleplaying. IDGAF what you think, D&D has just as much roleplaying as any other game. Now, if you have some other definition of "roleplaying," please provide it.

Wow you are really spoiling for a fucking fight. Reread my answer. I list out what AiME provides as far as Middle Earth goes. In case you need some remedial reading skill update. That means that AiME provides better support for roleplaying and running campaigns in Middle Earth than what D&D does or MERP for that matter.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
So is MERP. I mean, they literally both have Middle-Earth in the fucking names.

Which does not change the fact that MERP is just Rolemaster Lite. Which is 100% my opinion.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
I think AiME is pure garbage compared to MERP, and this statement is 100% opinion. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Great I think MERP is garbage as Middle Earth RPG and You think AiME is garbage. Case solved Sherlock.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
So basically your answer boils down to, "I like this more, so it's better." I'm doing the same thing, but also can back up my statements with the FACT that MERP supplements are better because they have way better art and stats for Ringil.

MERP art except for the McBride covers are meh. Also 100% my opinion. And as for Ringil I am sure the fact it has kewl powers like a +88 bonus, it is Holy, does additional Cold Criticals, and quadruple concussion damage among other abilities has made you a fan of the weapon. Of course, it helped nobody was paying attention to Iron Crown when they added stuff from the Silmarillion that they didn't have a license for.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
EDIT: If it matters (it doesn't) I got rid of all my non-MERP stuff last year. This includes every single Decipher book, a complete set of The One Ring, and all the Adventures in Middle-Earth stuff. I found none of it to actually be compelling, but at least MERP has a cool gritty vibe.

Likewise I got ride of most of my MERP stuff around 2000.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 11:34:22 AM
Nahh, estar here thinks it's a great game and you're just wrong. Sorry.

No I am a fan of AiME and the LoTR RPG and their supplements. I don't care for ToR core books at all. Still have to work on that reading comprehension.

AND YOU'RE ALL WRONG THE ONE RING IS THE BEST WHICH IS WHY I'M WRITING IN ALL CAPS     RAAAAAH!   



......anyhow

Quote from: estar on November 30, 2023, 02:57:08 PM
Wow you are really spoiling for a fucking fight. Reread my answer. I list out what AiME provides as far as Middle Earth goes. In case you need some remedial reading skill update. That means that AiME provides better support for roleplaying and running campaigns in Middle Earth than what D&D does or MERP for that matter.

I asked for specifics what constitutes "roleplaying" in this statement. You have failed to provide anything as to what you mean, precisely. Other than essentially badmouth anyone who plays RPGs in anything resembling a traditional, normal style.

QuoteWhich does not change the fact that MERP is just Rolemaster Lite. Which is 100% my opinion.

Yeah, and AIME is 100% 5th edition D&D, which literally undermines your entire non-argument about needing "more roleplaying for M-E than D&D allows." Nicely done.

QuoteGreat I think MERP is garbage as Middle Earth RPG and You think AiME is garbage. Case solved Sherlock.

Yes, and you are wrong. Case indeed solved.

QuoteMERP art except for the McBride covers are meh. Also 100% my opinion. And as for Ringil I am sure the fact it has kewl powers like a +88 bonus, it is Holy, does additional Cold Criticals, and quadruple concussion damage among other abilities has made you a fan of the weapon. Of course, it helped nobody was paying attention to Iron Crown when they added stuff from the Silmarillion that they didn't have a license for.

The autism is just shining through here; your complete inability to grasp simple sarcasm is apparent.

QuoteLikewise I got ride of most of my MERP stuff around 2000.

So? You're the one insinuating my opinion was purely arbitrary while yours had a basis in concrete reality. Essentially you tried to make it sound like only someone with no experience in AIME or whatever else could like MERP, which is absurd.

You have no actual argument beyond you like that game more because you still won't define what you mean by "roleplaying". For some reason, wanting to pretend to be rangers investigating the Barrow Downs is NOT roleplaying, but using all sorts of narrative sub-games is? So, you're a storygamer, not a roleplayer is what I am reading, I guess.

Quote from: estar on November 30, 2023, 02:59:52 PMNo I am a fan of AiME and the LoTR RPG and their supplements. I don't care for ToR core books at all. Still have to work on that reading comprehension.

Where are you on the spectrum...I am curious.

REALLY liking the tone of Against the Darkmaster but boy are the rules...dense. I don't mind crunch, but I'm wondering if this is too much. Anyone have experience with AtD? Does it play better than it reads?

I opened the Quickstart preview of Against the Darkmaster on DrivethruRPG. Holy hell, what's up with that cover art?  :o
Not only does it look like a bad McBride copy, but one of the characters looks a bit like a drag queen.

Quote from: Trond on November 30, 2023, 10:19:56 PM
Not only does it look like a bad McBride copy, but one of the characters looks a bit like a drag queen.

Quite sure it's an homage to McBride and I'm not seeing the dragqueen.

Quote from: Matrix Sorcica on December 01, 2023, 04:47:05 AM

Quote from: Trond on November 30, 2023, 10:19:56 PM
Not only does it look like a bad McBride copy, but one of the characters looks a bit like a drag queen.

Quite sure it's an homage to McBride and I'm not seeing the dragqueen.

Are you looking at the Quickstart? I'm not talking about the main book.

@Monero

I know you've seen a few opinions tossed around, but I'm not sure that any of them have made a compelling case for what YOU should do.  In fact, I'm not sure that any of them could because I think it's important to outline what you're hoping to achieve. 

First off, besides you and your wife, who else would you be playing with?  Are they new to role-playing?  Will they have any interest in rules or will they expect you to handle all of that yourself? 

What type of campaign sounds good to you?  In the movies the hobbits mostly ran from the Nazgul.  When they found themselves in the middle of a pitched battle, they mostly tried to stay out of the way.  The idea that the evil forces are too powerful to directly confront is an important element in the books and movies...but...it's also clear that sometimes you have to fight even against long odds.  In Moria they fight the cave troll, but they run from the Balrog.    The party fights the horde of Uruk-Hai at Amon Hen but it is a strategic defeat.  Outside of Aragorn fighting wolf-riders that appears only in the movies, most of the rest of the combat is army versus army. 

There are a lot of games that support robust combat, but it can set your game up for failure if players think they're supposed to fight but they're really supposed to run.  Likewise, if the only way to fight battles is to use Diplomacy to gather forces and make strategic decisions, that's very different than a turn-based small-party combat game like D&D. 

Many role-playing games do decently well when there is a specific object and known obstacles.  Clearing a dungeon is something that D&D is really good for, but walking for months with the hope of surviving in a swamp is something that tends to disappear into 'make a skill check, okay, you survive the swamp' outside of encounters.  Likewise, D&D assumes you fight and kill monsters and rewards you with higher levels - a character like Frodo is really no more powerful when he reaches Mount Doom versus when he left the Shire.  A game where some characters are relatively powerful but others are weak can be hard to maintain in a collaborative story-telling game. 

Some of what makes the movies so magical for the audience is a chance to see a world that we've imagined brought to life.  When the camera focuses on the 'bigatures' like Rivendell, we're swept up in the visual wonder.  Even with the best descriptive text, it's hard to describe walking the halls of Rivendell as well as the Peter Jackson movies did it.  A lot of the WONDER can get lost in an RPG. 

If you're interested in playing in the world, there's a lot you can do outside of the main story.  Characters like Faramir and the Rangers are involved in dealing with problems even when the book isn't on them.  Playing a campaign where the PCs are all rangers trying to protect a particular region from dark forces will play very differently than a campaign where you need to call on all the heads of state to assemble an army.  If you want to do BOTH, well, that's not impossible, but usually it means trade-offs. 

If you can describe what you think a good campaign would like like, there's a much better chance that you will get a meaningful and helpful suggestion. 

The One Ring 2e is really good.

The Lord of the Rings RPG 5e is great as well.  I'm playing in an online campaign currently and it is wonderful.  A fantastic adaptation of The One Ring to D&D mechanics.  It is much more of a complete conversion of TOR than what the previous Adventures in Middle Earth was.

Quote from: Monero on November 30, 2023, 05:57:08 PM
REALLY liking the tone of Against the Darkmaster but boy are the rules...dense. I don't mind crunch, but I'm wondering if this is too much. Anyone have experience with AtD? Does it play better than it reads?

I played in an epic online AtD campaign recently.  I really enjoyed the campaign and it was a blast.  The story and GM were great.  I thought I'd like the AtD mechanics more than I actually ended up liking them.  They were a bit too much like MERP for my tastes and a bit bogged down in rule minutiae.  Just wait till you get into a combat with a lot of PCs and NPCs to have to manage....it becomes a nightmare really fast.  I also found leveling up to be pretty tedious and confusing at times.  It is a bit of a shame because I thought I'd enjoy the game mechanics more when I first read through the book, but in play it can be burdensome.

The experience of the campaign was good, but it was more so due to the GM and the story and not the mechanics so much.

Quote from: Batjon on December 01, 2023, 11:27:49 AM
The One Ring 2e is really good.

The Lord of the Rings RPG 5e is great as well.  I'm playing in an online campaign currently and it is wonderful.  A fantastic adaptation of The One Ring to D&D mechanics.  It is much more of a complete conversion of TOR than what the previous Adventures in Middle Earth was.

Can you sum up the differences between AiME and LoTR 5E? Why on earth did they change they change the name...

I'm hoping its "not enough changed, stick with AiME" because i have a massive pdf bundle. Hows the backwards compatability?

Quote from: Aglondir on December 01, 2023, 01:02:21 PM

Quote from: Batjon on December 01, 2023, 11:27:49 AM
The One Ring 2e is really good.

The Lord of the Rings RPG 5e is great as well.  I'm playing in an online campaign currently and it is wonderful.  A fantastic adaptation of The One Ring to D&D mechanics.  It is much more of a complete conversion of TOR than what the previous Adventures in Middle Earth was.

Can you sum up the differences between AiME and LoTR 5E? Why on earth did they change they change the name...

I'm hoping its "not enough changed, stick with AiME" because i have a massive pdf bundle. Hows the backwards compatability?

A quote I read online that is a decent summary: "They are very different. Essentially they start with the same starting point (5e) but are built separately from there. LotR5e is closer to TOR and AiME is closer to D&D5e, though both have had considerable changes for 5e to suit the source material."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AiME/comments/17va4nb/lotr_5e_vs_aime/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/AiME/comments/17va4nb/lotr_5e_vs_aime/)

https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=10127 (https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=10127)

https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=11089 (https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=11089)

Our online LotR RPG 5e has room for 1-2 additional players, if anyone wants to give it a go.  Our Scholar had to leave the game due to personal things like moving and such, so we have 4 players currently.

Quote from: Batjon on December 01, 2023, 01:30:21 PM
Our online LotR RPG 5e has room for 1-2 additional players, if anyone wants to give it a go.  Our Scholar had to leave the game due to personal things like moving and such, so we have 4 players currently.

How do you like the 5e version?

Quote from: Batjon on December 01, 2023, 01:24:52 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on December 01, 2023, 01:02:21 PM

Quote from: Batjon on December 01, 2023, 11:27:49 AM
The One Ring 2e is really good.

The Lord of the Rings RPG 5e is great as well.  I'm playing in an online campaign currently and it is wonderful.  A fantastic adaptation of The One Ring to D&D mechanics.  It is much more of a complete conversion of TOR than what the previous Adventures in Middle Earth was.

Can you sum up the differences between AiME and LoTR 5E? Why on earth did they change they change the name...

I'm hoping its "not enough changed, stick with AiME" because i have a massive pdf bundle. Hows the backwards compatability?

A quote I read online that is a decent summary: "They are very different. Essentially they start with the same starting point (5e) but are built separately from there. LotR5e is closer to TOR and AiME is closer to D&D5e, though both have had considerable changes for 5e to suit the source material."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AiME/comments/17va4nb/lotr_5e_vs_aime/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/AiME/comments/17va4nb/lotr_5e_vs_aime/)

https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=10127 (https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=10127)

https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=11089 (https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=11089)

Thanks! I checked out some of the links. Someone has made a comprehensive document outlining the changes:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V-Ldavvh0DrkkSOCfTszRr97bC2KCRzRFq7OaS2-Nwk/edit (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V-Ldavvh0DrkkSOCfTszRr97bC2KCRzRFq7OaS2-Nwk/edit)

edit: fixed link

I dropped some hints to my wife, and now I'm pretty sure she has ordered the One Ring 2nd ed starter set for Christmas. I'll write a review here, but sadly it's going to have to wait a few weeks 😄

Also take a look at the Age of Shadow from Crooked Staff Publishing on drivethru. It uses the openquest system (based on runequest).

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/3785/crooked-staff-publishing/category/8743/the-age-of-shadow-rpg

Quote from: Blake on December 02, 2023, 09:02:52 AM
Also take a look at the Age of Shadow from Crooked Staff Publishing on drivethru. It uses the openquest system (based on runequest).

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/3785/crooked-staff-publishing/category/8743/the-age-of-shadow-rpg

Is there a preview somewhere?

Quote from: Trond on December 02, 2023, 12:35:14 PM

Quote from: Blake on December 02, 2023, 09:02:52 AM
Also take a look at the Age of Shadow from Crooked Staff Publishing on drivethru. It uses the openquest system (based on runequest).

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/3785/crooked-staff-publishing/category/8743/the-age-of-shadow-rpg

Is there a preview somewhere?

It's free:


https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/93513/The-Age-of-Shadow-Roleplaying-Game (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/93513/The-Age-of-Shadow-Roleplaying-Game)

Quote from: A commenterAn absolutely excellent use of the OpenQuest system, it creates a very adaptable set of mechanics which will allow me to dig out all my old Iron Crown and MERP products and rekindle my early days of gaming, but without the complexity of Rolemaster. The layout is lovely, clean and simple, immediately approachable and useable. If I had one gripe it would be the lack of pictorial art, but the use of maps, sketches, border and banners still makes this a rich product. And of course the price is amazing!

Quote from: Aglondir on December 01, 2023, 01:02:21 PM

Quote from: Batjon on December 01, 2023, 11:27:49 AM
The One Ring 2e is really good.

The Lord of the Rings RPG 5e is great as well.  I'm playing in an online campaign currently and it is wonderful.  A fantastic adaptation of The One Ring to D&D mechanics.  It is much more of a complete conversion of TOR than what the previous Adventures in Middle Earth was.

Can you sum up the differences between AiME and LoTR 5E? Why on earth did they change they change the name...

I'm hoping its "not enough changed, stick with AiME" because i have a massive pdf bundle. Hows the backwards compatibility?

Well, it's not a "they changed the name" situation. What happened is that Cubicle-7 (the AiMe company) lost the license and Free League (the LotRR company) bought it. Technically they are two totally different games, although I believe that a lot of the design team (who also did TOR and TOR2) were the same. Because a lot of the designers are the same, my understanding is that they chose to start the new game with content regarding parts of Middle-earth that hadn't been covered in the older one instead of just doing the same stuff all over again. I appreciate that.

The biggest difference is that of scale. AiME runs characters to level 20, LotRR caps at level 10. I haven't figured out how to convert back and forth yet (I assume it's not as simple as "multiply by 2" or "divide by 2") but I do know that LotRR rebuilt a lot of the classes to be more Tolkien-like. A friend of mine told me that AiME is 5E as seen through a Tolkien lens but LotRR is more like Tolkien as seen through a 5E lens. I think he means that AiME runs a lot like a traditional 5E campaign but LotRR runs more like a Middle-earth game that happens to have 5E-similar rules. I'm hoping to run a LotRR campaign soon and can give a better reply after that, I hope.

Quote from: Blake on December 02, 2023, 09:02:52 AM
Also take a look at the Age of Shadow from Crooked Staff Publishing on drivethru. It uses the openquest system (based on runequest).

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/3785/crooked-staff-publishing/category/8743/the-age-of-shadow-rpg

Agreed, I should have remembered that one.

Although I think the goal there was more a Second Age game that a late Third Age one.

Quote from: finarvyn on December 02, 2023, 04:12:46 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on December 01, 2023, 01:02:21 PM

Quote from: Batjon on December 01, 2023, 11:27:49 AM
The One Ring 2e is really good.

The Lord of the Rings RPG 5e is great as well.  I'm playing in an online campaign currently and it is wonderful.  A fantastic adaptation of The One Ring to D&D mechanics.  It is much more of a complete conversion of TOR than what the previous Adventures in Middle Earth was.

Can you sum up the differences between AiME and LoTR 5E? Why on earth did they change they change the name...

I'm hoping its "not enough changed, stick with AiME" because i have a massive pdf bundle. Hows the backwards compatibility?

Well, it's not a "they changed the name" situation. What happened is that Cubicle-7 (the AiMe company) lost the license and Free League (the LotRR company) bought it. Technically they are two totally different games, although I believe that a lot of the design team (who also did TOR and TOR2) were the same. Because a lot of the designers are the same, my understanding is that they chose to start the new game with content regarding parts of Middle-earth that hadn't been covered in the older one instead of just doing the same stuff all over again. I appreciate that.

The biggest difference is that of scale. AiME runs characters to level 20, LotRR caps at level 10. I haven't figured out how to convert back and forth yet (I assume it's not as simple as "multiply by 2" or "divide by 2") but I do know that LotRR rebuilt a lot of the classes to be more Tolkien-like. A friend of mine told me that AiME is 5E as seen through a Tolkien lens but LotRR is more like Tolkien as seen through a 5E lens. I think he means that AiME runs a lot like a traditional 5E campaign but LotRR runs more like a Middle-earth game that happens to have 5E-similar rules. I'm hoping to run a LotRR campaign soon and can give a better reply after that, I hope.

Finarvyn,

Your assessment tracks with what I've read online. Namely, the Google Doc that summarizes the changes. I think the 10-level structure makes more sense than a 20-level structure. And I like that they set it in Eriador. I've seen your friend's comments echoed in various places-- that AiME plays more like 5E and LoTR plays more like TOR. Let us know how the game goes.

Quote from: Aglondir on December 03, 2023, 01:03:07 AM

Quote from: finarvyn on December 02, 2023, 04:12:46 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on December 01, 2023, 01:02:21 PM

Quote from: Batjon on December 01, 2023, 11:27:49 AM
The One Ring 2e is really good.

The Lord of the Rings RPG 5e is great as well.  I'm playing in an online campaign currently and it is wonderful.  A fantastic adaptation of The One Ring to D&D mechanics.  It is much more of a complete conversion of TOR than what the previous Adventures in Middle Earth was.

Can you sum up the differences between AiME and LoTR 5E? Why on earth did they change they change the name...

I'm hoping its "not enough changed, stick with AiME" because i have a massive pdf bundle. Hows the backwards compatibility?

Well, it's not a "they changed the name" situation. What happened is that Cubicle-7 (the AiMe company) lost the license and Free League (the LotRR company) bought it. Technically they are two totally different games, although I believe that a lot of the design team (who also did TOR and TOR2) were the same. Because a lot of the designers are the same, my understanding is that they chose to start the new game with content regarding parts of Middle-earth that hadn't been covered in the older one instead of just doing the same stuff all over again. I appreciate that.

The biggest difference is that of scale. AiME runs characters to level 20, LotRR caps at level 10. I haven't figured out how to convert back and forth yet (I assume it's not as simple as "multiply by 2" or "divide by 2") but I do know that LotRR rebuilt a lot of the classes to be more Tolkien-like. A friend of mine told me that AiME is 5E as seen through a Tolkien lens but LotRR is more like Tolkien as seen through a 5E lens. I think he means that AiME runs a lot like a traditional 5E campaign but LotRR runs more like a Middle-earth game that happens to have 5E-similar rules. I'm hoping to run a LotRR campaign soon and can give a better reply after that, I hope.

Finarvyn,

Your assessment tracks with what I've read online. Namely, the Google Doc that summarizes the changes. I think the 10-level structure makes more sense than a 20-level structure. And I like that they set it in Eriador. I've seen your friend's comments echoed in various places-- that AiME plays more like 5E and LoTR plays more like TOR. Let us know how the game goes.

Thanks, and will do. My biggest obstacle at the moment is that my wife (who loves the LotR movies) only wants to play elven wizards and so her enthusiasm about playing in Middle-earth (without PC wizards) is lukewarm at best. As she represents 25% of my players, that makes LotRR a bit of a tough-sell. I have some ideas on how to approach this, but that's holding up the campaign launch at the moment.

Quote from: finarvyn on December 03, 2023, 06:52:27 AMMy biggest obstacle at the moment is that my wife (who loves the LotR movies) only wants to play elven wizards and so her enthusiasm about playing in Middle-earth (without PC wizards) is lukewarm at best. As she represents 25% of my players, that makes LotRR a bit of a tough-sell. I have some ideas on how to approach this, but that's holding up the campaign launch at the moment.

My wife is in my rpg group as well, but she sure represents more than 20% (I have 5 players) of my group.   ;D

I prefer the new Lord of the Rings RPG.  Well, I prefer TOR 2e, but of the 5e versions I like LoTRR over AiME.  And one of the biggest things I like is that they don't include spell casters and try to take a subtle approach to magic.  I also like the toned down 10-level system.  Anyway, I would probably have a little pushback in my group because a couple of people do like casting spells.  But much like your situation, finarvyn, I would point out (and you probably already have, to your wife) that "normal" folks didn't really cast spells in the LotR movies.

If I were going to implement any type of spellcasting system into LotRR (or AiME), then it would definitely be something subtle.  Maybe the type of spells you seen in Harnmaster, with the casting limits of World Without Number.  I don't know...that's just me spitballing.  It definitely would NOT be fireballs, wishes, cure wounds, and flying spells.  Very, very subtle stuff. But that's my opinion.

I seriously think more people who are into Tolkien should give TOR a try. It's in many ways like a love letter to the guy. The dice have letters from his invented scripts included, and these are actually used in the game, not just window dressing. If you like a bit improvisation you can use these symbols to additional effect, not always outlined in the rules. For instance, I once interpreted a roll of extraordinary success but with an Sauron's Eye symbol as "you did very well indeed, but you get the feeling that someone not so friendly may have noticed".

Quote from: Blake on December 02, 2023, 09:02:52 AM
Also take a look at the Age of Shadow from Crooked Staff Publishing on drivethru. It uses the openquest system (based on runequest).

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/3785/crooked-staff-publishing/category/8743/the-age-of-shadow-rpg

Another recommendation for Age of Shadow here. I like it very much, but just so you know, without a license it can't come right out and say things like "Mordor" or "Sauron."

The Age of Shadow is a great little game, especially since the PoD books are concise and lightweight. It's nice to be able to carry everything to a friend's house and not have to strain your back. For anyone looking to use it for a LotR game, you should know that the author put up rules for making halfling characters on his website; the rule book covers humans, elves, and dwarves already.

http://ageofshadow.freehostia.com/halflings.html (http://ageofshadow.freehostia.com/halflings.html)

I made a character for, and played a few session of TOR. I found it fairly interesting, and I definitely felt it was very evocative of the setting. Systems designed around a particular setting are always going to feel more thematic than a setting book from another system.

I don't remember the particulars, but I recall reading about changes made from TOR 1e to 2e, and not liking them.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 03:16:48 PMI don't remember the particulars, but I recall reading about changes made from TOR 1e to 2e, and not liking them.

I can't recall specifics either, but one thing that impressed me with Free League is that they wrote the 2E TOR books such that (1) they didn't duplicate sourcebooks released for 1E, and (2) they would be somewhat compatible.

So, the designers feel like the changes weren't that significant. I have the same sense as you, however, that I liked TOR 2E better. I just can't recall why. :(

I have been playing a solo game of TOR2e and I think it's great. It better conveys the feeling of LOTR than MERP (which I have played as well).

The Hope and Shadow rules are in a sense "meta-game / story-game" rules, but after watching this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXHQNCqEQyc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXHQNCqEQyc)) that explains the rules with examples from the film / book it made me realise that it actually brings to life the meta-narrative of Middle-Earth in a way that doesn't exist in most other campaign settings. So it feels like an essential part of the world rather than a tacked on way to alter the world or setting.

I have a bunch of MERP modules which I intend to use as a resource as well at some point. Of course I will need to turn the magic and DnD'isms all the way down but I don't see why they can't be used as a source of NPCS, adventure hooks and locations.

Have any of you played MERP but with magic users banned?

Apart from excessive math, and tables for everything, the magic users in a universe where there shouldn't really be any 'in the wild' was my biggest turn-off.

The art, setting material, and general vibe felt very Tolkienesque.

So I'm gonna be one of those weird, odd man out type. Don't buy a licensed LotR game....cause they all go defunct eventually. Just pick your favorite OSR game, house rule what you need. Use the novels as lore and have at it.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 08:28:56 PM
Have any of you played MERP but with magic users banned?

Apart from excessive math, and tables for everything, the magic users in a universe where there shouldn't really be any 'in the wild' was my biggest turn-off.

The art, setting material, and general vibe felt very Tolkienesque.

When I ran it we didn't have any magic users. I just steered the players away from that option, and kept magic used by others Tolkien-esque. We had great fun with it. I still don't think MERP is necessarily the best system for Tolkien, but there's certainly a lot of good material for it out there.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on December 11, 2023, 09:36:39 PM
So I'm gonna be one of those weird, odd man out type. Don't buy a licensed LotR game....cause they all go defunct eventually. Just pick your favorite OSR game, house rule what you need. Use the novels as lore and have at it.

I did it that way for years and enjoyed running OD&D Middle-earth style. I like LotR games because the designers did a lot of the house ruling for me. Except that I still house rule pretty much anything I run, so maybe I'm back to where you suggested. ;)

I think one thing that turned a number of people off from MERP back in the day was the example of play at the start of the book. My god, was it a bad match for Tolkien-purists. There was a character called "Chinta Kari" and someone levitating around a tower, just to check it out (plus numerous other spells left and right).

I don't remember that example of play, but it does sound very non-Tolkien in flavor. My take on MERP is that it had solid mechanics, but the magic system just didn't feel like Middle-earth at all. I think most of MERP was solid -- the combat felt pretty gritty and perilous. The Adventure Game they did based on MERP was a lot of fun as well.