Quote from: Trond on November 29, 2023, 10:27:27 PM

If you ask me, the only reason to go 5e is if you're already into D&D. I'm sure that could make sense though, if you don't feel like yet another system to deal with. It DOES look like they took a lot from The One Ring (and not just the art, there's Shadow Points and being Miserable are obviously taken from One Ring). So I suspect some of the objections to One Ring above seem like they would apply to Adventures in Middle-Earth too (if I understand what Brad is hinting at correctly).

I ran three campaigns using AiME. AiME is more balanced in how it handles combat, roleplaying, etc than TOR. Yes Shadow and being Miserable are there but like I said they feel organic to how Middle Earth works. Much in the same way going insane in Call of Cthulu feel organic to their setting.

The fact is that a Middle Earth campaign demands more roleplaying than a traditional D&D campaign. But if want to do something more that is hack slash like being on the frontier of Gondor fighting the forces of Mordor, AiME has the covered as well. AiME doesn't skimp on the combat abilities.


Frankly I don't see what MERP brings to the table other than nostalgia. TOR/AiME sourcebooks and adventures are far superior to what ICE did. The AiME version has far more interesting stuff as far as combat and magic goes than anything I've seen in what ICE did with MERPs.




If you don't mind a new system but like levels, classes, and such, I would much rather go with MERP but that's me.
And finally, if you don't mind a fresh view at a different RPG system that is built with LotR and the Hobbit in mind, then The One Ring is actually very nice.
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Quote from: PulpHerb on November 29, 2023, 08:04:57 PM
The Hero's Journey Fantasy Roleplaying by James Spahn of Barrel Rider Games.

Fun fact, James Spahn was involved in the writing of AiME and various TOR and AiME supplements.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 29, 2023, 12:27:48 AM
I wholeheartedly liked Decipher's version, but it got knee-capped by licensing issues. They weren't allowed to use the Silmarillion...

Every Middle Earth RPG, from ICE to TOR, has used the same exact license (The Saul Zentz Company d/b/a/ Middle Earth Enterprises.)

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 11:00:29 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on November 29, 2023, 08:04:57 PM
The Hero's Journey Fantasy Roleplaying by James Spahn of Barrel Rider Games.

Fun fact, James Spahn was involved in the writing of AiME and various TOR and AiME supplements.

I did not know that but knowing THJFR I'm not surprised.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 10:58:47 PM

I ran three campaigns using AiME. AiME is more balanced in how it handles combat, roleplaying, etc than TOR. Yes Shadow and being Miserable are there but like I said they feel organic to how Middle Earth works. Much in the same way going insane in Call of Cthulu feel organic to their setting.

The fact is that a Middle Earth campaign demands more roleplaying than a traditional D&D campaign. But if want to do something more that is hack slash like being on the frontier of Gondor fighting the forces of Mordor, AiME has the covered as well. AiME doesn't skimp on the combat abilities.


Frankly I don't see what MERP brings to the table other than nostalgia. TOR/AiME sourcebooks and adventures are far superior to what ICE did. The AiME version has far more interesting stuff as far as combat and magic goes than anything I've seen in what ICE did with MERPs.

There's some truth to MERP and nostalgia. I had to tweak the system to make it fit my visison of Middle Earth. Still, we always had more fun with MERP/Rolemaster than with any iteration of D&D. Again, just my experience.

What do you mean by more balanced roleplaying though?

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Anyways, can you all give some insight on the pros and cons of each system that tries to capture Middle Earth?

Another option is "Against the Darkmaster"which is an update of sorts for the old ICE MERP game from 1991.
You can download the free quickstart here:

https://www.vsdarkmaster.com/quickstart-and-downloads/

Edit: Eric Diaz already mentioned it upthread.

Quote from: Trond on November 29, 2023, 07:31:28 PM
I have to wonder, why this reaction to The One Ring?

The aesthetic is awesome, but it's essentially a storygame when you get right down to it. Probably one of the biggest disappointments in a game I've ever had, honestly.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 10:58:47 PM
The fact is that a Middle Earth campaign demands more roleplaying than a traditional D&D campaign. But if want to do something more that is hack slash like being on the frontier of Gondor fighting the forces of Mordor, AiME has the covered as well. AiME doesn't skimp on the combat abilities.

Define "roleplaying"...explain why traditional D&D has less "roleplaying" using this definition than other games, and why Middle Earth requires more of this "roleplaying". Killing orcs and taking their stuff is just as much "roleplaying" as giving soliloquies in the court of Arnor.

QuoteFrankly I don't see what MERP brings to the table other than nostalgia.

It's an actual game, for one. It's fun to play, so there's that. I know fun is a nebulous concept in general, but I always had fun playing it so...yeah. Whatever I guess?

QuoteTOR/AiME sourcebooks and adventures are far superior to what ICE did. The AiME version has far more interesting stuff as far as combat and magic goes than anything I've seen in what ICE did with MERPs.

This is patently absurd...you've got to be fucking trolling at this point.

QuoteIf you don't mind a new system but like levels, classes, and such, I would much rather go with MERP but that's me.
And finally, if you don't mind a fresh view at a different RPG system that is built with LotR and the Hobbit in mind, then The One Ring is actually very nice.

Frankly I don't see what The One Ring brings to the table other than aesthestic.

Quote from: Monero on November 29, 2023, 08:38:52 PMWhich 5e game do you prefer? Looking at eBay and I found a couple used AiME core books for not that much more than the Free League 5e book. Are they both pretty equal in quality?

I've played more AiMe and enjoy it because it's better for Middle-earth than regular 5E. Glossy pages with color artwork, if that matters. I'm not as happy with the scale, which extends to level 20.

I think I like the Free League one better, but I haven't gotten to play it much yet. The level scale, which caps at 10, is more in line with my style of play since most of my regular 5E games end somewhere around there anyway. I like the artwork of LotRR, which is B&W line art, and I like the heavy paper feel of the book.

Picking one I would go with Free League's LotRR, but I am hoping to steal elements from both and if you can get an AiMe core book at a decent price you might go for it. (Keep in mind, however, that AiMe has both a Player's Book and a DM's book, so the "full" rules sort of require both. LotRR is all in one book.)

Quote from: Aglondir on November 29, 2023, 11:52:25 PM

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Anyways, can you all give some insight on the pros and cons of each system that tries to capture Middle Earth?

Another option is "Against the Darkmaster"which is an update of sorts for the old ICE MERP game from 1991.
You can download the free quickstart here:

https://www.vsdarkmaster.com/quickstart-and-downloads/

Edit: Eric Diaz already mentioned it upthread.

Yeah, not so sure about this one.  I grabbed Darkmaster when it came out, hoping to get newer players into a MERP style experience.  And while it does evoke some of that, the 500 plus page rulebook is rather convoluted and character creation is even slower than in MERP, which is saying something.  This is not helped by the fact that there are mathematical errors in the sample characters' sheets that don't align with RAW.

And they add a couple whiny mechanics like "passion" that I just find off-putting, along with their weird punk-rock lesbian elf PC images and the like.  The production values are nice, though.  Strangely, however, when they started putting out their own setting material, they went Arthurian and some of it (just what I saw in previews; I didn't buy it) seemed to diverge from the tone of the main rulebook.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 11:00:29 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on November 29, 2023, 08:04:57 PM
The Hero's Journey Fantasy Roleplaying by James Spahn of Barrel Rider Games.

Fun fact, James Spahn was involved in the writing of AiME and various TOR and AiME supplements.

   Including the Starter Set for TOR.

   I own almost the entire line for Hero's Journey, and while I haven't played it, 2nd Edition looks quite promising for Tolkien/Lewis/Alexander/Cooper-style fantasy of various flavors. (The 1st Edition version, which hews closer to D&D tropes, looks like it would be great for Dragon Quest. )

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM

Quote from: Trond on November 29, 2023, 07:31:28 PM
I have to wonder, why this reaction to The One Ring?

The aesthetic is awesome, but it's essentially a storygame when you get right down to it. Probably one of the biggest disappointments in a game I've ever had, honestly.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 10:58:47 PM
The fact is that a Middle Earth campaign demands more roleplaying than a traditional D&D campaign. But if want to do something more that is hack slash like being on the frontier of Gondor fighting the forces of Mordor, AiME has the covered as well. AiME doesn't skimp on the combat abilities.

Define "roleplaying"...explain why traditional D&D has less "roleplaying" using this definition than other games, and why Middle Earth requires more of this "roleplaying". Killing orcs and taking their stuff is just as much "roleplaying" as giving soliloquies in the court of Arnor.

QuoteFrankly I don't see what MERP brings to the table other than nostalgia.

It's an actual game, for one. It's fun to play, so there's that. I know fun is a nebulous concept in general, but I always had fun playing it so...yeah. Whatever I guess?

QuoteTOR/AiME sourcebooks and adventures are far superior to what ICE did. The AiME version has far more interesting stuff as far as combat and magic goes than anything I've seen in what ICE did with MERPs.

This is patently absurd...you've got to be fucking trolling at this point.

QuoteIf you don't mind a new system but like levels, classes, and such, I would much rather go with MERP but that's me.
And finally, if you don't mind a fresh view at a different RPG system that is built with LotR and the Hobbit in mind, then The One Ring is actually very nice.

Frankly I don't see what The One Ring brings to the table other than aesthestic.

For us, both editions of TOR feel much more like board games than RPGs.  They claim to emphasize roleplaying, but it's mostly handling through a bunch of dice rolls and consultation of tables.  The journey rules are freaking awful.  Roll a bunch of dice to predetermine how your PCs will feel after the journey.  And the PCs have to pre-select roles for the journey and IIRC, there are rolls for each of them.  Why not just have the GM and players arrive at that through roleplaying it out?  The council rules are pretty much the same.  Roll a bunch of dice to determine success.  I guess this makes sense given that the lead designer was a board game designer first.

Quote from: Trond on November 29, 2023, 11:46:43 PM
What do you mean by more balanced roleplaying though?

If what a player is mainly interested is combat, then AiME has much of the details standard 5e has when it comes to the martial classes. The same with the monsters and NPCs. ToR has its own approach to combat.

I get into specific of AiME here
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2016/09/adventures-in-middle-earth-review.html

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM
Define "roleplaying"...explain why traditional D&D has less "roleplaying" using this definition than other games, and why Middle Earth requires more of this "roleplaying". Killing orcs and taking their stuff is just as much "roleplaying" as giving soliloquies in the court of Arnor.

Nice polemic and also a bullshit question.

AiME is about playing charactersin Middle Earth thus it has more detail than various D&D editions to handle other types of roleplaying in Middle Earth outside of adventuring like killing orcs and taking their shit. Things like NPCs motivations, player character motivations, and so on. Many of the character options are not combat oriented and so on. Magic is low-key but pervasive.

Monsters are tougher for the CR and abilities that inflict 5e conditions are more frequent than standard 5e. Resulting in combat that leaves the PCs debilitated even when they win. Thus PCs being motivated to come up with alternative tactics other than traditional hack-n-slash.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM
It's an actual game, for one. It's fun to play, so there's that. I know fun is a nebulous concept in general, but I always had fun playing it so...yeah. Whatever I guess?

Hey if all you want to do is a Moria Run, Helms Deep, Pelennor Fields, Black Gate battle adventure path have at it. But if you want something where the rules that support the feel of what Tolkien wrote that is approachable then AIME is the way to go.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 07:06:25 AM
This is patently absurd...you've got to be fucking trolling at this point.

I owned and used both. Can you say the same? Frankly other than Pete Fenlon overland maps, I always found the various ICE MERP supplements pieces of shit when stacked against Harn material.  And the team behind ToR 1e/AiME are far better at the Tolkien lore than the MERP team was.

Quote from: estar on November 30, 2023, 09:56:21 AM
Nice polemic and also a bullshit question.

No, sorry. You can't say a game requires MORE ROLEPLAYING than D&D when D&D, by definition, defined roleplaying. IDGAF what you think, D&D has just as much roleplaying as any other game. Now, if you have some other definition of "roleplaying," please provide it.

QuoteAiME is about playing charactersin Middle Earth

So is MERP. I mean, they literally both have Middle-Earth in the fucking names.

QuoteHey if all you want to do is a Moria Run, Helms Deep, Pelennor Fields, Black Gate battle adventure path have at it. But if you want something where the rules that support the feel of what Tolkien wrote that is approachable then AIME is the way to go.

I think AiME is pure garbage compared to MERP, and this statement is 100% opinion. Sorry to burst your bubble.

QuoteI owned and used both. Can you say the same?

Uh...yes? I mean, what a fucking pure faggot answer. Seriously.

So basically your answer boils down to, "I like this more, so it's better." I'm doing the same thing, but also can back up my statements with the FACT that MERP supplements are better because they have way better art and stats for Ringil.

EDIT: If it matters (it doesn't) I got rid of all my non-MERP stuff last year. This includes every single Decipher book, a complete set of The One Ring, and all the Adventures in Middle-Earth stuff. I found none of it to actually be compelling, but at least MERP has a cool gritty vibe.

Quote from: Persimmon on November 30, 2023, 09:03:02 AM
For us, both editions of TOR feel much more like board games than RPGs.  They claim to emphasize roleplaying, but it's mostly handling through a bunch of dice rolls and consultation of tables.  The journey rules are freaking awful.  Roll a bunch of dice to predetermine how your PCs will feel after the journey.  And the PCs have to pre-select roles for the journey and IIRC, there are rolls for each of them.  Why not just have the GM and players arrive at that through roleplaying it out?  The council rules are pretty much the same.  Roll a bunch of dice to determine success.  I guess this makes sense given that the lead designer was a board game designer first.

Nahh, estar here thinks it's a great game and you're just wrong. Sorry.