Wife and I watched the trilogy back to back recently and we both got really excited about playing a Middle Earth campaign. Problem is, I have no idea which to get.

There's The One Ring, which I've heard great things about. I think there's something called MERP? I think there's multiple 5e versions of lotr but I have no idea if they're any good. I've also read that Against the Dark master is basically middle earth that's highly tactical?

Anyways, can you all give some insight on the pros and cons of each system that tries to capture Middle Earth?

Thanks

My first pick would be the system from ICE's Lord Of the Rings Adventure Game.  A really slick little 2d6 system with character templates.

My next pick would probably be MERP, mind you MERP is really a lot like The Hobbit and not quite so much Lord of the Rings.  People complain about the magic but it's really low key and slow to develop.

Runequest spirit magic might actually fit fairly well when you consider that Middle Earth is swarming with invisible spirits of creation.

Rolemaster would probably do okay if you restricted it to Animists and Mentalists for spell casting.  The other magic using careers are too flamboyant.

I wholeheartedly liked Decipher's version, but it got knee-capped by licensing issues. They weren't allowed to use the Silmarillion, and the line ended after just a handful of books.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 29, 2023, 12:27:48 AM
I wholeheartedly liked Decipher's version, but it got knee-capped by licensing issues. They weren't allowed to use the Silmarillion, and the line ended after just a handful of books.

I haven't really liked any of the official licensed RPGs as fitting Tolkien, so I ended up using Savage Worlds for my most recent Middle Earth game. I had a thread on it recently:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/

I played in a short campaign of the Decipher RPG, and I liked some parts of it, but I felt like it was clearly a rush job and had some obvious errors. This was the conclusion of my old review of it:

QuoteOverall, I was disappointed in this book especially over a number of fairly basic errors. For example, the balance of edges, order abilities, and skills is fundamentally broken. Some problems were addressed in the errata, but many others were not. For example, the weapon damages are pretty screwy even after extensive errata. On the good side, the 24-page survey of lands and magic system are nicely flavorful. However, especially because of the restrictions on licensing, the book is of limited utility for Tolkien background. In short, if you are looking for a balanced and coherent game engine, then you should look elsewhere. With the errata, some rulings, and some learning, it is at least functional as the backdrop for a story-focused chronicle, but nothing more.

         Compared to the previous effort (ICE's MERP from 1984), it does have some clear improvements. The basic system is simpler and faster to resolve, and the magic system is more flavorful. It also has a larger and slicker core rulebook. On the other hand, MERP has dozens of high-quality supplements covering huge amounts of background. LOTR will need a long to catch up in this department, and it will probably never even be able to due to licensing restrictions.

Full review here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Wife and I watched the trilogy back to back recently and we both got really excited about playing a Middle Earth campaign. Problem is, I have no idea which to get.

Adventures in Middle Earth which unfortunately is out of print. Followed by the Lord of the Rings RPG. While they both use the 5e system it has been reworked into a Middle Earth RPG with new classes, items, creatures, and so on. The same adventures and region guides are shared with  The One Ring RPG. But are different printings so you only get the AiME/LoTR RPG information in the one you buy.

The 5e version are far more approachable than The One Ring RPG and far more deadly than a bog standard 5e campaign. The biggest things that a newcomer has to get used to with either AiME or LoTR RPG is the lack of spell casters. Magic is present but it low key for the most part represented by magical abilities. 

The other is the idea of the Shadow. Similar to insanity in Call of Cthulu, Shadow is a mechanic that represents the fact that Middle Earth has been tainted by Morgoth. Now controlled by Sauron it is a supernatural force that corrupts individuals particularly those who experience times of stress or do evil acts. It is not an alignment mechanic although players will initially react to it like it is one. The mechanics have ways for characters to handle or mitigate the Shadow that they experience.  Like Call of Cthulu and insanity sometimes it feels like it is a race to see if evil can be vanquished before the Shadow becomes too much.

Overall the writers did an excellent job of adapting the 5e mechanics to create something that feels very Tolkienian.

I have played MERP and The One Ring.

MERP has many great adventure modules set in Middle-Earth, so that's one reason to use this system (or Rolemaster, which is compatible). I love the work they put into the adventures and the cover art. But the MERP system itself does not really scream Tolkien, and some feel the magic system was actually not a good match.

The One Ring does aim to be much closer to Tolkien's style from the get-go. Many of the rules are actually based on Tolkien quotes. They also try to get something of the feel of the stories in the game, include special symbols on the dice taken from Tolkien's runes etc. etc. The modules are OK, but often a bit railroady. I would also say that the One Ring might be more for the people who love the books, a bit more than the movies (compared to Decipher), but that's just a minor thing.

AiME was a competente re-work of 5e, I liked reading it (never played it).

Haven't read Against the Darkmaster but seems to be a good MERP clone. Free quickstater:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/273729/Against-the-Darkmaster--Quickstart

I, personally, had much fun with MERP but am not sure it is a great fit for Middle-earth.

TOR seems to nail the "feel" very well, with modern mechanics. Again, haven't played it.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 11:47:14 AM

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Wife and I watched the trilogy back to back recently and we both got really excited about playing a Middle Earth campaign. Problem is, I have no idea which to get.

Adventures in Middle Earth which unfortunately is out of print. Followed by the Lord of the Rings RPG. While they both use the 5e system it has been reworked into a Middle Earth RPG with new classes, items, creatures, and so on. The same adventures and region guides are shared with  The One Ring RPG. But are different printings so you only get the AiME/LoTR RPG information in the one you buy.

I have to agree with Rob here. Here is my chain of thought:

(1) 5E is the most popular edition out there, so it's easy to find players.

(2) There are two 5E versions of Middle-earth gaming out there. Cubicle-7's "Adventures in Middle-earth" is a great game but out of print and buying the books can be quite expensive. Free League's "Lord of the Rings RPG" has some neat changes (new classes, level cap at 10, etc.) and is a great alternative. Both of the two 5E games were/are done by the same developers who did The One Ring, only with 5E mechanics.

(3) Products from the two 5E games are, I think, pretty easy to work with one another. AiME has adventures based on Mirkwood, the Lonely Mountain, and other regions in that part of Middle-earth. LotRR has adventures based in the Shire and Eriador, with Moria due to come out in the spring. Between the two games there is a lot of 5E content.

So what about the other options? I have played many.

(i) ICE's adventure game is really fun and is a trimmed down version of MERP. MERP is a pretty complex game, but is a simpler version of RoleMaster. MERP always felt pretty sterile and generic to me, but the MERP modules are really full of great content. No matter what game you go with, check out the MERP material for inspiration. The adventure game is more limiting but more fun (to me) than running all-out MERP.

(ii) Decipher's LotR game is one I played a lot also. Like ICE, Decipher put out both an adventure game and a full RPG. I found the RPG to be somewhat limiting because of the 2d6 mechanic, as characters like Aragorn quickly maxed out stats and "broke" the bell curve too badly. If that is kept under control it's a fine system and has a nice Middle-earth feel to it.

(iii) The One Ring is fantastic overall, but it's hard for me to find folks who want to learn a new system. I can do either AiME or LotRR with 5E mechanics and can achieve a similar goal.

Just my two coppers.

Play MERP if you like RPGs. If you want to wank off and pretend you're LARPing in Middle Earth as a renfaire furry, The One Ring is probably better.

I had some fun some time back with the free Legends of Middle Earth. Should be freely downloadable here:

http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/legends-of-middle-earth

Quote from: Brad on November 29, 2023, 03:32:46 PM
Play MERP if you like RPGs. If you want to wank off and pretend you're LARPing in Middle Earth as a renfaire furry, The One Ring is probably better.

I have to wonder, why this reaction to The One Ring?

None of my suggestions are licensed Middle Earth games, but both are obviously very ME centric:

The Hero's Journey Fantasy Roleplaying by James Spahn of Barrel Rider Games. It is a take on White Box S&W designed to create a more quest style experience. It also tones down magic some with a brief spell list but each spell has multiple effects a caster can choose from.  However, even the options for Master level spells are tame by high level D&D. For example, the master spell "A Hope Ever Enduring" allows for +5 to defense and each affected person can name one enemy who will have disadvantage against that character for the duration OR immunity to Despair plus a +2 on all attack rolls against a enemy requiring a Despair save to attack OR one magical object of the caster's choice seeks to function although a holder of the item can save at disadvantage to avoid it. All of these last 1 minute per caster level.

Those all seem to fit things Gandalf or Aragorn could do.

Balrogs and Bagginsess is a classic D&D system game whose inspiration should be obvious.  Roles (classes) are pretty lose and it is pretty much straight D&D magic with a much pruned spell list. I'm less familiar with it but it might be worth a look.

Going further afield there is a PBtA games, Fellowship, designed to give a grand quest feel. I got it in a Bundle of Holding along with supplements and it looks interesting if PBtA is your cup of tea.  I'm still on the fence about it, like some iterations better than others.

Finally, this is much further but is a game with some interesting ideas I think should get more looks even if just for mining, Fantasia: Book of All Knowing. It is a perfect example of  Edwards called a fantasy heartbreaker clearing descending from D&D but long on its own path. An interesting thing that tones the game down is the need for in-game points from previous characters to create a magic using character in most case. I have a soft spot for it as one of 2-3 FHB I'd love to run so I can recommend it as much as the first two, but it is out there.

Quote from: finarvyn on November 29, 2023, 01:21:47 PM

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2023, 11:47:14 AM

Quote from: Monero on November 28, 2023, 09:10:18 PM
Wife and I watched the trilogy back to back recently and we both got really excited about playing a Middle Earth campaign. Problem is, I have no idea which to get.

Adventures in Middle Earth which unfortunately is out of print. Followed by the Lord of the Rings RPG. While they both use the 5e system it has been reworked into a Middle Earth RPG with new classes, items, creatures, and so on. The same adventures and region guides are shared with  The One Ring RPG. But are different printings so you only get the AiME/LoTR RPG information in the one you buy.

I have to agree with Rob here. Here is my chain of thought:

(1) 5E is the most popular edition out there, so it's easy to find players.

(2) There are two 5E versions of Middle-earth gaming out there. Cubicle-7's "Adventures in Middle-earth" is a great game but out of print and buying the books can be quite expensive. Free League's "Lord of the Rings RPG" has some neat changes (new classes, level cap at 10, etc.) and is a great alternative. Both of the two 5E games were/are done by the same developers who did The One Ring, only with 5E mechanics.

(3) Products from the two 5E games are, I think, pretty easy to work with one another. AiME has adventures based on Mirkwood, the Lonely Mountain, and other regions in that part of Middle-earth. LotRR has adventures based in the Shire and Eriador, with Moria due to come out in the spring. Between the two games there is a lot of 5E content.

So what about the other options? I have played many.

(i) ICE's adventure game is really fun and is a trimmed down version of MERP. MERP is a pretty complex game, but is a simpler version of RoleMaster. MERP always felt pretty sterile and generic to me, but the MERP modules are really full of great content. No matter what game you go with, check out the MERP material for inspiration. The adventure game is more limiting but more fun (to me) than running all-out MERP.

(ii) Decipher's LotR game is one I played a lot also. Like ICE, Decipher put out both an adventure game and a full RPG. I found the RPG to be somewhat limiting because of the 2d6 mechanic, as characters like Aragorn quickly maxed out stats and "broke" the bell curve too badly. If that is kept under control it's a fine system and has a nice Middle-earth feel to it.

(iii) The One Ring is fantastic overall, but it's hard for me to find folks who want to learn a new system. I can do either AiME or LotRR with 5E mechanics and can achieve a similar goal.

Just my two coppers.

Which 5e game do you prefer? Looking at eBay and I found a couple used AiME core books for not that much more than the Free League 5e book. Are they both pretty equal in quality?

As others have noted, I think it depends a lot on you and your players and what you like for your experience. 

MERP is probably my second all-time favorite RPG and for the depth of world building and gaming options for Middle Earth, none of the other games come close.  They choose their default setting as Mid Third Age, which I see as a plus, but there are options to play in other eras, even the First or Second Ages.  And there's one 4th Age campaign module.  But the MERP stuff is out of print and pricey and the rules, while not that complicated, can be challenging for some not used to ICE games.  It's also VERY lethal.  Some people complain about it being high magic, but it has lots of mechanics built in that will limit players' use of magic as it can attract unwanted attention very fast.  Some of their maps & settings are fantastic.  They stretch the lore quite a bit, but that also gives you plenty of freedom.  None of the other Middle Earth RPGs offer this kind of flexibility.

Decipher LOTR is basically based on the movies.  So if you want a more cinematic feel, go with that, though the books are pretty pricey.

A lot of people like TOR, whether in its original version from Cubicle Seven, or the current Free League second edition.  We hated both versions.  While the books look great and have the feel of Middle Earth, the mechanics really get in the way of roleplaying by reducing nearly everything to dice rolls.  And they slavishly try to mimic the books.  I know the setting well enough not to need all these unnecessary intrusions in my game.

The 5e versions are therefore better if you either already know 5e, or want to adapt them to something else.  They have different classes and are low magic and some of the more annoying mechanics from TOR are altered or toned down.  The production values, especially in the current edition are pretty high.  We've found that the Free League version (Lord of the Rings Roleplaying) is super easy to convert to Castles & Crusades.  That allows us to ignore the mechanics we don't like and incorporate stuff that we do into a system we know and like.  One downside is that the adventures published to this point are pretty vanilla and railroady.  Another issue is that they're set between the events of The Hobbit and LOTR.  This can be a feature, especially for more casual Tolkien fans, but it can also be limiting if you're concerned about canon. 

Quote from: Monero on November 29, 2023, 08:38:52 PM

Which 5e game do you prefer? Looking at eBay and I found a couple used AiME core books for not that much more than the Free League 5e book. Are they both pretty equal in quality?

If you ask me, the only reason to go 5e is if you're already into D&D. I'm sure that could make sense though, if you don't feel like yet another system to deal with. It DOES look like they took a lot from The One Ring (and not just the art, there's Shadow Points and being Miserable are obviously taken from One Ring). So I suspect some of the objections to One Ring above seem like they would apply to Adventures in Middle-Earth too (if I understand what Brad is hinting at correctly).

If you don't mind a new system but like levels, classes, and such, I would much rather go with MERP but that's me.
And finally, if you don't mind a fresh view at a different RPG system that is built with LotR and the Hobbit in mind, then The One Ring is actually very nice.