Quote from: flyerfan1991;750348Yes, Apple's devices work in general (Maps, anyone?), but you have to be cognizant that you're buying into a closed system that has design asthetics first and then functionality second. If you're fine with that, then go for it.

as big of fan as I am of open computing, it doesn't bother me as much on the iPad. I found this odd when I realize that my primary use of the iPad was as a consumption device. I primarily use it to consume content. Books, movies, video, tv shows, comics, etc.

I tried using it as a creation device but I always winding up and saying fuck it and just use the netbook/desktop setup I used before buying the iPad. Only now i have a Windows 8 touch enable netbook instead of the Asus Windows XP netbook I had before.

The exception would be software like Crawler's Companion for Dungeon Crawl Classic. Holy cow that is one great RPG utility. I consider it to be the model of how RPG utilities should work on a tablet. A combination of rule reference and random table automation that is outstanding. And get this you can have it roll on the table, but you also have a lookup mode where you can just punch a number and see the result of a physical dice roll.

Luckily Crawler is both on Android and iPad.

Unfortunately the Crawler's Companion pretty much stands alone. The closest would be Inspiration Pad Pro app for Android and Diconomicon for iPad.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;750239Never underestimate the power of the master salesman, Steve Jobs, and his Reality Distortion Field.

Quote from: mcbobbo;750267You'd have to count in the intangibles, if you wanted to be intellectually honest about it.  Like the hacker FUD they spread or the way their cases never cover their logo.

Point is there is a 'status' to owning Apple that nobody else has.  Not sure which spreadsheet column that goes into, but it has basically nil to do with the device or its software.

So no one who owns an iPad does so because they came to the conclusion that it's the best product on the market?

The assumption you both seem to be making is that it's not a good product and therefore people need other reasons to buy one ("marketing", "reality distortion field", etc...)

That's rather patronizing.

Quote from: Piestrio;750393So no one who owns an iPad does so because they came to the conclusion that it's the best product on the market?

The assumption you both seem to be making is that it's not a good product and therefore people need other reasons to buy one ("marketing", "reality distortion field", etc...)

That's rather patronizing.

I believe there is a huge segment who buy Apple portables 'just because' without really researching their opinions first.  I think, if you look into tech circles you may find that I didn't invent the opinion.

So can people weigh the options and select Apple?  Sure.  So long as we're not talking about price, performance,  compatibility,  expandability,  etc.  Seriously, how is "cannot expand the memory" not a dealbreaker for anyone using a technical point of view?  Particularly with pdfs, I mean who here is done buying them and doesn't need more space, ever?

I put no moral weight in what tablet you prefer, but I do disagree that Apple's single offering dejour can compete with literally hundreds of similar Android devices on a technical level.  It's just not possible that they can stay best on the block with one product a year.

As for the Windows RT devices,  I see them as another MS non-starter.  I will be happy to admit I am wrong about that down the line.

In the 1990s, what the Mac did it did insanely well, but trying to do things outside of that was like pulling teeth. Windows had everything and everybody writing for it, and had a lot of good enough software. But the wealth of choices means there was a lot of crap as well as good stuff.

Eventually both platforms matured. The Mac gained a UNIX foundation so if you really had to do something you could take that route. Windows matured and gains so much software that even if you stuck with the best you still had a wealth of choices.

The current debate between iPad vs Android is a retread of that debate. With Android in Windows role, and the iPad continuing Apple's Mac legacy.

And like that debate it will end in the same way. With both platform maturing with roughly equal capabilities. The decision on which one to use will depend on price, opportunity (which you learn first), and the specific apps you want to run.

Right now there are programming tools you can buy that will allow you to program right on the iPad. Everything from Basic to Lua. Android is accumulating a suite of really good application that stand out amid of all the crap in the Google play store.

Quote from: Ladybird;750330iProducts sell well because they do the thing that you buy them for, very well, and with a lovely UI on top. They are made for people who don't give a shit about how anything works, they just want it to work.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.  Android can get you off into the weeds pretty quickly.

I honestly see a future where Apple follows Amazon and constructs their walled garden but still has access to current hardware.  But I remember when they werw going to leet Motorola sell Mac OS, too...

Quote from: mcbobbo;750398I believe there is a huge segment who buy Apple portables 'just because' without really researching their opinions first.  I think, if you look into tech circles you may find that I didn't invent the opinion.

So can people weigh the options and select Apple?  Sure.  So long as we're not talking about price, performance,  compatibility,  expandability,  etc.  Seriously, how is "cannot expand the memory" not a dealbreaker for anyone using a technical point of view?  Particularly with pdfs, I mean who here is done buying them and doesn't need more space, ever?

I put no moral weight in what tablet you prefer, but I do disagree that Apple's single offering dejour can compete with literally hundreds of similar Android devices on a technical level.  It's just not possible that they can stay best on the block with one product a year.

As for the Windows RT devices,  I see them as another MS non-starter.  I will be happy to admit I am wrong about that down the line.

Counterpoint:

The iPad is sold as an appliance to people who don't expect to upgrade it. The need to hack, expand and replace the innards is a PC/Linux conceit, although there is a crossover between Apple users and people who are technically informed. I went over to Apple because I had enough disposable income and not enough time to keep fiddling with Linux boxes. Another friend went over to Apple because at the price point they're selling at his MBP was cheaper than the equivalent Windows laptop, although I have no idea how he made that comparison.

And since we're talking about propaganda (and it's a fair shout) the anti-Apple people like to paint Apple users as either hipsters posing in Starbucks while they pretend to write their screenplay, or complete ignorants who want Apple to wipe their bum for them. There is a third type of user, which is someone who knows their way around a computer but is prepared to pay a premium for the Apple device because it makes things easier.

Apple does compete with Android, but not on specs, on the available services. Forget expandable, open hardware, because that's irrelevant to most consumers. We should be viewing them like different Satellite TV providers, with the apps analogous to channels.

Yeah, I'm well aware Apple are screwing me, just like any other business. But at least they use lube.

Quote from: smiorgan;750346As I said upthread, Goodreader renders pdf faster on my older iPad than iBooks, etc. Liked it so much I bought it twice (paid to upgrade to v4). Since that was one of the OP's must-haves I thought it was relevant.

You're not going to get any arguments from me on that score, I've done the same thing.

What does bug me is the race-to-the-bottom, "all my tablet software should be freeeeee!" attitude that some people (None here in this discussion, though) have.

Quote from: mcbobbo;750398I believe there is a huge segment who buy Apple portables 'just because' without really researching their opinions first.  I think, if you look into tech circles you may find that I didn't invent the opinion.

People don't just buy iDevices just because they exist, though; they buy them because they've spent a decade building up a reputation for quality portable machines. The "One more thing..." presentations are neat, but they really only apply to a small part of the market; it's word of mouth and seeing "hey, these things are pretty neat!" that sells your device to the masses.

Hardware specs, beyond a certain level, are just numbers for geeks (Like us)  to argue about. The resources required to read Facebook, watch Netflix and play the latest Angry Birds are minimal, and that's all the majority of people really want from their computers, regardless of form factor.

Quote from: mcbobbo;750398So can people weigh the options and select Apple?  Sure.  So long as we're not talking about price, performance,  compatibility,  expandability,  etc.  Seriously, how is "cannot expand the memory" not a dealbreaker for anyone using a technical point of view?

With 30 years of working with computer hardware and programming CAD/CAM tools for metal cutting machines, I give the following reason.

1) Tablets are primarily consumption devices. To make them useful for content creation you need to turn them into little laptops with bluetooth keyboards, etc. There a comes a point where you just plain better off with a laptop.

2) On board storage isn't as critical as it once one. With the widespread availability of wi-fi, you wind up steaming half the stuff you are looking at.

3) For text media (including graphics heavy PDF) 16 gigs is a lot of space. If you go up 64 gig like I did it become a non-issue.

4) When you throw in Dropbox, Google Drive, MS One Drive, it becomes even less of a problem.

Quote from: mcbobbo;750398Particularly with pdfs, I mean who here is done buying them and doesn't need more space, ever?

The Kindle comes out to 5.1 gig and my Goodreaders comes out to 9.1 gigs. That would bust a 16 gig device. But I haven't really cleaned out either in a while and there are plenty of documents I could live with being on Dropbox and just download when I need it.

Quote from: mcbobbo;750398I put no moral weight in what tablet you prefer, but I do disagree that Apple's single offering dejour can compete with literally hundreds of similar Android devices on a technical level.  It's just not possible that they can stay best on the block with one product a year.

Apple can compete because they know how to design. If they can keep that edge then they will remain as the best selling brand of tablet. By design I mean the whole package. Some of elements, like the technical specs, are only "good enough". While other are very good. But what make it shine is the combination.

I live and breeze technical specs but being part of a small company and having to work hand and hand with sales, I have come to realize that "design" is just as important. It not enough to have the specs you have the specs and the design working.

Finally people vary in what important to them in what a piece of technology must does. Apple has a goal at which they aim the iPad at. If you fall of out of the cone of that goal then iPad will be a royal pain to deal with. Which also means other solutions (like Android devices) will likely be the better fit. But Apple is not stupid they deliberately aim that cone at what they feel will gather in the most profitable market.

Quote from: mcbobbo;750398As for the Windows RT devices,  I see them as another MS non-starter.  I will be happy to admit I am wrong about that down the line.

RT will be a non-starter but full Windows tables like the 7" dells will find a niche. However the problem is that Windows strength is in creating content. Tablets users for the most part consume content.

With that being said, what I think will happen with computers that we move a plug and play future with docking stations. At home we have a base with usb style ports, large screen monitors w/ touch, printers, storage and other devices. we will reach over and yank out the tablet from the base which we can then carry with us. That "monitors" will diversify into surfaces for display and input.

That this is what will give Windows a new lease on life because of the mass of applications behind it.

A alternative is developing around technologies like the Chrome OS. Basically using the web based APIs to develop a traditional OS with applications.

The ChromeOS suffers from the same issue DropBox does - if you have WiFi you're golden.  If you're offline or on LTE your experience will be less favorable.

I find that for PDF reading, my ipad (with goodreader) is very good. But for accessing Web content or using Google drive documents, my Galaxy Tab 3 8" is superior. This is probably due to new ios updates being optimized for newer ipads,  so if you buy a more recent ipad, ymmv.

I have an iPad Mini 64GB (which basically has the same specs as the iPad 2) and have never had one issue with it. Nearly all the apps I'd want to use are released on iOS. PDF viewing is great. I got my girlfriend a Kindle Fire HDX for Christmas and it also works really well.

All these religious arguments are useless. Go to the store and try them out, pick whichever interface you like best.

Quote from: Piestrio;750393So no one who owns an iPad does so because they came to the conclusion that it's the best product on the market?

The assumption you both seem to be making is that it's not a good product and therefore people need other reasons to buy one ("marketing", "reality distortion field", etc...)

That's rather patronizing.

Why did people continue to buy the Chevy Lumina when the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord were available?  Because it was the right product for them, not necessarily the right product in general.

How something becomes the right product for a person is the entire point of marketing.  You develop a base, you sell people on the superiority of the product in various ways, and you market to that base.  

It is just like cars.  Some households are Chevy households, others are Ford households.  Ratings and testing done in Consumer Reports and Car and Driver don't mean squat to them, because they buy on name alone.  Even in the days when GM was cranking out some real crappy cars (Cadillac Cimmaron, anyone?) they still sold tons based on reputation and fanbase alone.

And Apple doesn't crank out shit.

Apple's ability to put out a (relatively) bug free product makes the sales job easier, but to make that jump from the hard core fanbase to the general population you need to sell the product.  And we're not talking word of mouth, here, we're talking a big sell that causes tens of thousands of people to instantly drop $500+ dollars on a product that is out for only a week or two.  THAT is where Steve Jobs was the master.

I've been satisfied using my 9" Nook HD+ and ezpdf so far. It's good enough for reading while I'm on the bus/train, plus it's fairly inexpensive now since BN decided to stop making tablets. It can play audio in the background, can play Youtube, Netflix, etc too. Probably not to most people's tastes, but for my simple needs, it works just fine

I freaking love my Nexus.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751474I freaking love my Nexus.

You need to get the Inspiration Pad Pro app. You can use the built in table or add new ones via the usb cable. The Windows version and the Android version use the same data files.