Which one is the best?
And is there any that you'd say is truly EXCELLENT?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;316939Which one is the best?
And is there any that you'd say is truly EXCELLENT?
RPGPundit
Stormbringer (1st edition) is raw, badass awesomeness.
Quote from: jdurall;316940Stormbringer (1st edition) is raw, badass awesomeness.
Seconded.
Quote from: enelson;316943Seconded.
Thirded.
RuneQuest is Stormbringer's father, so it's even more badass. Though, Stormbringer has an exceptional degree of badassitude.
Barbarians of Lemuria because it's rules lite, yet has everything you need to play. It captures what S&S is all about in spirit and in play.
Swords & Wizardry or 0e/Basic D&D, plus my 'swords & sorcery' house-rules (http://akraticwizardry.blogspot.com/2009/07/swords-sorcery-house-rules-index.html). :p
I've been running a great 'swords & sorcery' campaign with those rules over the past couple of months.
In terms of published systems, Stormbringer has already been mentioned. I played the later version, Elric!, many years ago, and quite liked it (despite my personal dislike of Moorcock's writing style).
I also think that TSR's Conan RPG is a lost gem (and is now available as a 'retro-clone' called 'ZeFRS').
Quote from: Imperator;316947RuneQuest is Stormbringer's father, so it's even more badass. Though, Stormbringer has an exceptional degree of badassitude.
RQ is indeed badass to an immeasurable degree.
It is
not, however, a sword-and-sorcery game.
The treatment of non-humans is too rich and balanced, and the emphasis on culture and religion too strongly felt, for it to fit comfortably in that category.
Quote from: Spinal Tarp;316948Barbarians of Lemuria because it's rules lite, yet has everything you need to play. It captures what S&S is all about in spirit and in play.
It's a very good choice.
Another great option is Solomon Kane with the Savage Worlds system. It's a very pretty book with lots of adventure material but it's not cheap and it's a bit more complex than BoL (though still not super complex).
All the D&D variants need some adjustments (either to XP or to hp and magic) to be gritty enough to really capture it.
Carcosa would probably be the best if only it were actually a full-fledged RPG and not an OD&D supplement.
Quote from: jdurall;316940Stormbringer (1st edition) is raw, badass awesomeness.
Yesss!
Another vote for 1st edition Stormbringer.
(The magic system in Stormbringer is much more S&S than the RQ magic system, in my opinion.)
Swordbearer, a very under-appreciated game if ever there was one. Also, FWIW, light years ahead of its time in terms of game design with regard to magic and even more mundane things like encumbrance.
The most fun I've ever had in a Swords & Sorcery campaign, though, was via Risus + houserules. I went with Swordbearer because I suspect that "Risus + houserules" isn't really a game in the sense that you mean. ;)
Tunnels and Trolls - rules light, and been S&S since 1975.
Quote from: aramis;316969Tunnels and Trolls - rules light, and been S&S since 1975.
A very fun game but I'm not sure it's Swords & Sorcery as written — using the typical genre definition, anyhow. I think, in terms of genre, T&T has always been pushing
High Fantasy. Again, though, this assumes that you're using the typical definitions of those terms and not just hanging "Swords & Sorcery" on anything with magic and swords in it.
Quote from: ICFTI;316972A very fun game but I'm not sure it's Swords & Sorcery as written — using the typical genre definition, anyhow. I think, in terms of genre, T&T has always been pushing High Fantasy. Again, though, this assumes that you're using the typical definitions of those terms and not just hanging "Swords & Sorcery" on anything with magic and swords in it.
Depends a lot on the module... many of the modules are very much S&S... as many of the solo modules exclude wizards and rogues; others exclude non-humans. Some S&S fiction has been high magic, anyway... Elric, anyone?
T&T has always supported both S&S and HF... the warrior model for T&T is S&S. Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser is generall considered S&S, and is the basis for the T&T rogue.
T&T is pretty sword and sorcery to me. Same with AD&D1e. But it's RPG sword and sorcery - not an attempted emulation of what game geeks in 2009 think of as an accurate emulation of Howard or Leiber, when they have never read the original pulps anyway.
TFT for me, but I'll have to check out Stormbringer based on the above love.
I greatly enjoy True20 and/or Mutants and Masterminds + Warriors & Warlocks for S&S action, but I'm biased because I wrote a fair amount of material for both.
Savage Worlds would also be great for some pulpy S&S action.
D&D 4e might be able to do a reasonable job with some tweaks (only martial and primal classes for PCs with some evil sorcerer NPCs), but it wouldn't necessarily be my first choice.
Iron Heroes and/or Conan d20 are also a lot of fun.
Quote from: jdurall;316952RQ is indeed badass to an immeasurable degree.
It is not, however, a sword-and-sorcery game.
The treatment of non-humans is too rich and balanced, and the emphasis on culture and religion too strongly felt, for it to fit comfortably in that category.
Point taken. :) My enormous love for RQ was speaking there, but I have to admit that Stormbringer is really fine-tuned for S&S.
You can make RQ a S&S but requires some customization, certainly.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;316960Another vote for 1st edition Stormbringer.
(The magic system in Stormbringer is much more S&S than the RQ magic system, in my opinion.)
True absolutely, you should ditch everything but the sorcery rules, IMO, and give the Ritual Magic a far greater importance. Hmmm. Worthy a new thread, I guess.
Barbarians of Lemuria (http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1016378), of course!
Simon W
Quote from: The_Shadow;317054But it's RPG sword and sorcery - not an attempted emulation of what game geeks English in 2009 think of as an accurate emulation of Howard or Leiber, when they have never read the original pulps anyway.
Well, there
is an actual literary genre called Swords & Sorcery that is defined by scholars as opposed to "game geeks." The definition of that genre is fairly specific. People willfully ignoring that definition or trying to re-invent it when pimping their favorite game is a
huge pet peeve of mine.
It seems like Aramis has a pretty good handle on it and he makes a good argument for the T&T thief. Your assertion that "RPG swords and sorcery" is somehow a different genre than that and the literary genre defined by actual scholars, though? That's a great example of the re-definiton I'm talking about.
Fantasy != Swords & Sorcery. :banghead:
Quote from: ICFTI;317109Well, there is an actual literary genre called Swords & Sorcery that is defined by scholars as opposed to "game geeks." The definition of that genre is fairly specific. People willfully ignoring that definition or trying to re-invent it when pimping their favorite game is a huge pet peeve of mine.
It seems like Aramis has a pretty good handle on it and he makes a good argument for the T&T thief. Your assertion that "RPG swords and sorcery" is somehow a different genre than that and the literary genre defined by actual scholars, though? That's a great example of the re-definiton I'm talking about.
Fantasy != Swords & Sorcery. :banghead:
NOT THIEF. Rogue. T&T Rogue ≠ Thief.
In later editions (5.5/7.x), theivery is a talent, one which most rogues lack.
S&S fiction generally has wizards as bad guys only, often EHP's... It's mostly humanocentric, if not human-only (arguing, for the moment, that melniboneans and Atlanteans are NOT human, since they are clearly different in their respective settings to mere men, and thus the genre isn't purely human-only), magic has a high price, and main characters often survive more by wits than steel, but survival by steel is required of them.
S&S in RPG's is a slight expansion upon that baseline... one of the very best descriptions of how to run Literary style S&S is Ron Edwards'
Sorcerer & Sword, even if Sorcerer itself is not your cup of tea.
D&D can do S&S... disallow PC & non-evil wizards, and allow only NPC clerics.
T&T does it better, since the T&T Rogue has about the same peak magical ability as the most fantastic of acknowledged S&S literature: Lieber's Nehwon, home of Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser, and living skeletons.... T&T Wizards push into high fantasy... as do the tolkeinian races.
(I've not myself read Nehwon novels... but I've seen enough adaptations and reviews... It's a humanocentric setting. By all accounts, it makes AD&D1E with all the options look positively metropolitan... And living skeletons are humans cursed with invisible flesh and skin. Their eyes, bones, and certain organs are visible.)
Problem with your Actual Literary Scholars is that they pickle things in aspic.
What I'm saying is that 1970s RPG sword and sorcery, as it dripped from the fevered brains of Gygax and St Andre, is as valid a type of sword and sorcery as that defined by said Actual Literary Scholars. So I think T&T and D&D are ideal sword and sorcery games.
If the topic was, which games are best for emulating Howard's Conan, my answer would have been different.
Quote from: ICFTI;317109Well, there is an actual literary genre called Swords & Sorcery that is defined by scholars as opposed to "game geeks." The definition of that genre is fairly specific. People willfully ignoring that definition or trying to re-invent it when pimping their favorite game is a huge pet peeve of mine.
It seems like Aramis has a pretty good handle on it and he makes a good argument for the T&T thief. Your assertion that "RPG swords and sorcery" is somehow a different genre than that and the literary genre defined by actual scholars, though? That's a great example of the re-definiton I'm talking about.
Fantasy != Swords & Sorcery. :banghead:
Those are called ghouls in Nehwon.
Anyway I agree with Stormbringer/Elric as #1. TFT has a good deal of the feel but it didn't have the clarity to leave out Elves & Dwarves. Swordbearer's an intriguing option but I don't remember it very well. The obscure game High Fantasy, in spite of the name, has a strong S&S vibe to me.
Quote from: Imperator;317097Point taken. :) My enormous love for RQ was speaking there, but I have to admit that Stormbringer is really fine-tuned for S&S.
You can make RQ a S&S but requires some customization, certainly.
Add another one to the club of those who think RuneQuest is not that great for Sword and Sorcery. A long time ago, I wouldn't have thought of another better game for my Conan gaming, in fact we used it to play in Hyboria. Of course, our characters were the faceless men Conan killed in spades, and not the Conan-like magnificent bastards our characters should have been. When I realized that using RuneQuest for S&S without heavy houseruling wouldn't do, my enthusiasm cooled.
On the other hand, Elric/Stormbringer 5th is an excellent game for S&S. Combat is as dangerous as in RQ but characters can be easily as capable as Conan, and kill enemies several times their number as if they were grass.
I never played Stormbringer 1st, but I played Stormbringer 4th and it was really savage, another good one.
And let me add Barbarians of Lemuria, which has the honor of being the only light rules RPG I like. The idea of using careers as skills is genius! By the way Simon, have you ever thought about adding tactical options to Barbarians of Lemuria? It would make me love your game even more. :) Or maybe I should do it myself....
Quote from: ConanMK;317068I greatly enjoy True20 and/or Mutants and Masterminds + Warriors & Warlocks for S&S action, but I'm biased because I wrote a fair amount of material for both.
Maybe you can answer a question for me:
Warriors & Warlocks sounds very cool, especially as a couple of my buddies are really into Conan/Arak/Warlord comics.
However, I don't have (and I'm not interested in) Mutants and Masterminds. I do have True20. Could I play Warriors & Warlocks just based off of the True20 rules set, or do I need Mutants and Masterminds? I'm fine with modifying and handwaving some stuff, so it doesn't have to be a seamless fit. I just want to know if it's practical.
Quote from: ICFTI;316965Swordbearer, a very under-appreciated game if ever there was one. Also, FWIW, light years ahead of its time in terms of game design with regard to magic and even more mundane things like encumbrance.
The most fun I've ever had in a Swords & Sorcery campaign, though, was via Risus + houserules. I went with Swordbearer because I suspect that "Risus + houserules" isn't really a game in the sense that you mean. ;)
I totally agree, Swordbearer rocks! I love the magic system which I found very evocative. I adjusted it to work with Riddle of Steel and now have both a nice combat AND magic system working together!
Quote from: Haffrung;317146Maybe you can answer a question for me:
Warriors & Warlocks sounds very cool, especially as a couple of my buddies are really into Conan/Arak/Warlord comics.
However, I don't have (and I'm not interested in) Mutants and Masterminds. I do have True20. Could I play Warriors & Warlocks just based off of the True20 rules set, or do I need Mutants and Masterminds? I'm fine with modifying and handwaving some stuff, so it doesn't have to be a seamless fit. I just want to know if it's practical.
If you know True20 and M&M systems well (and understand the differences between them), yes this could work. I mix M&M and True20 material all the time in my games. If, on the other hand, you aren't too familiar with one of the two games, and not too clear on what is different, it might be more of a headache than its worth. Either system can handle S&S well on its own without the need for hybridizing.
With M&M, you can pick up a pocket version of Mutants and Masterminds for around $15 and use that with Warriors and Warlocks.
With True20, I'd get the True20 Companion (which is already included in the Revised Edition of the True20 core book) first, before investing in Warriors and Warlocks if you are only getting the latter to run with True20.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: ConanMK;317158If you know True20 and M&M systems well (and understand the differences between them), yes this could work. I mix M&M and True20 material all the time in my games. If, on the other hand, you aren't too familiar with one of the two games, and not too clear on what is different, it might be more of a headache than its worth. Either system can handle S&S well on its own without the need for hybridizing.
With M&M, you can pick up a pocket version of Mutants and Masterminds for around $15 and use that with Warriors and Warlocks.
With True20, I'd get the True20 Companion (which is already included in the Revised Edition of the True20 core book) first, before investing in Warriors and Warlocks if you are only getting the latter to run with True20.
Hope that helps.
Thanks. Since I only have the True20 players manual (or whatever the cheap and streamlined version of the rules set is called), it looks as though I'd be best off picking up the pocket Mutants and Masterminds along with Warriors and Warlocks if I want to play the latter.
True20/theBRsystem could have been THE S&S system par excellence. Unfortunately GR fucked that up, both by introducing things into the True20 rules that doesn't fit the S&S vibe, and by failing to produce a truly good S&S setting.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;317194True20/theBRsystem could have been THE S&S system par excellence. Unfortunately GR fucked that up, both by introducing things into the True20 rules that doesn't fit the S&S vibe, and by failing to produce a truly good S&S setting.
RPGPundit
They did provide free conversion notes for their d20 Thieves World setting.
True, a complete True20 Thieves World setting in a single product would have been better, but it's better than nothing.
Quote from: ConanMK;317197They did provide free conversion notes for their d20 Thieves World setting...
Interesting. I may have to look into that. Thanks! :)
Quote from: RPGPundit;317194True20/theBRsystem could have been THE S&S system par excellence. Unfortunately GR fucked that up, both by introducing things into the True20 rules that doesn't fit the S&S vibe, and by failing to produce a truly good S&S setting.
If you are going to go d20 derived, I'll take Grim Tales over True20 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
Yeah--if you dial it in right, Grim Tales is ideal for S&S.
*still favors Scarred Lands...but might go Pathfinder Scarred Lands...some day*
And no, no way do I think 4th edition does Scarred Lands any justice. Seriously.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;317123Those are called ghouls in Nehwon.
I wonder if they're the inspiration for Bone Men in Carcosa?
Generally eating people makes the heroes nervous unless they have a REALLY big weapon...like an axe.
But as for the inspiration...*shrugs* It's like asking if having a giant lizard with wings and call it a dragon is any different than a D&D dragon.
Nehwon ghouls don't eat people. I have no idea if there's a connection to Carcosa.
They don't? I thought they did. Oh well. Must have them confused with regular ones. Thanks anyway for fixing that for me Elliot.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;317359Nehwon ghouls don't eat people. I have no idea if there's a connection to Carcosa.
Quote from: Nightfall;317364They don't? I thought they did. Oh well. Must have them confused with regular ones. Thanks anyway for fixing that for me Elliot.
But Ringworld Ghouls do... but only if they are already dead. ;)
Stormbringer's a real good call. I play fantasy/ S&S with Treasure now but I'm going to dig out Stormbringer for ideas after the reminder.
T&T - aye right. It was a dodgy clone 30 years ago.
Aramis,
Well I prefer to stay away from ring type places. They don't always sit well with me. I mean yeah Sigil is cool and all, but some times you just want hang around a place where people know your name. Probably why most of my characters in Planescape ended up in either the Upper Planes or the Lower ones.
Quote from: ICFTI;316965Swordbearer, a very under-appreciated game if ever there was one. Also, FWIW, light years ahead of its time in terms of game design with regard to magic and even more mundane things like encumbrance.
I agree. I liked the magic system so much that I adapted it several years ago for my Riddle of Steel campaign and have had a lot of fun with it!
Quote from: Diavilo;317400T&T - aye right. It was a dodgy clone 30 years ago.
IMHO it was a good game which, strangely, was marketed as a dodgy clone.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;317231If you are going to go d20 derived, I'll take Grim Tales over True20 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
Hmmm. Iron Heroes and (now that I have it and can see it) FantasyCraft are serious contenders as well.
Jaws of the Six Serpents nails S&S really well, as do Akrasia's S&W variant rules. Broadsword is great fun and comes with several scenarios.
but, the obvious answer for me - FtA! (+ FtA!GN, giving you summoners and the Tribelands of the motherfuckin' Hong !!!)
Thank you sean!
I certainly wanted much of FtA! to be about S&S feel; in The Setting there's not just the Tribelands but Diablo's Point (scummy pirate city), the barbarian lawless North and the realms of the Ice Wizard, and the far south with its decadent city-states and the Gorilla Kingdom.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Sean !;319465Jaws of the Six Serpents nails S&S really well, as do Akrasia's S&W variant rules. Broadsword is great fun and comes with several scenarios.
but, the obvious answer for me - FtA! (+ FtA!GN, giving you summoners and the Tribelands of the motherfuckin' Hong !!!)
I summarized Akrasia's S&W variants on a PDF linked in that thread of theRPGsite (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=14887).
It's good stuff. Try it out.
Iron Heroes was my personal favourite. I liked it so much I made a rules light Microlite20 variant.
Barbarians of Lemuria is good, but I don't like the setting or fluff.
Yeah, Iron Heroes looks like it'd fit the bill, but I haven't played it.
Both Conan RPGs - TSR's game from 1985 (non-D&D-related system) and Mongoose's OGL game - seem to capture the "feel" of swords & sorcery. The magic system Mongoose uses for their game really seems close to the kind of magic in evidence in the subgenre.
Quote from: Diavilo;317400T&T - aye right. It was a dodgy clone 30 years ago.
Of D&D you mean, I assume? Not really. Levels, and archetypes yes. But a totally different way of representing and presenting said archetypes. The stats started on the 3-18 bell curve, but they weren't static. Very different magic system. Very different combat system. A sort of 'unified mechanic' for eveything else plus stunts/tricks in combat. So, very much unlike D&D.
T&T can do s&s quite handily, but I'd probably choose something 'built' from the ground up for it.
Broadsword is certainly awesome.
Now that I've rediscovered
Barbarians of Lemuria due to my copy of the new version, it's the best I've ever seen, even though I too don't like the included default world that much. I'm more of a Lankhmar kinda guy and much less a "steamy jungles and dry deserts" kinda guy when it comes to S&S.
By the way, a question for those who've bought Barbarians of Lemuria - what changes are there between it and the free version? I downloaded the free version ages ago; is it worthwhile to buy the version on RPGNow?
Quote from: DeadUematsu;316956Carcosa would probably be the best if only it were actually a full-fledged RPG and not an OD&D supplement.
It's still a great option, in my opinion.
OD&D is a versitile enough system to run almost any style of play. Want a more heroic game, beef up the hit points. Want a more gritty style of play, keep the levels down.
Carcosa plus OD&D would be my vote.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;319730By the way, a question for those who've bought Barbarians of Lemuria - what changes are there between it and the free version?
Better art, more setting. Seems like more professions. Better layout.
QuoteI downloaded the free version ages ago; is it worthwhile to buy the version on RPGNow?
Depends too much on the players and GM to may any real advice.
Another option for S&S with D&D is the AD&D Lankhmar supplement. It has some good modifications that make spellcasting, in particular, have a more S&S feel. (If this was already mentioned, forgive me...)
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;319793Another option for S&S with D&D is the AD&D Lankhmar supplement. It has some good modifications that make spellcasting, in particular, have a more S&S feel. (If this was already mentioned, forgive me...)
I remember this, and yes, it was very good!
RPGPundit
What about Jakandor?
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;319730By the way, a question for those who've bought Barbarians of Lemuria - what changes are there between it and the free version? I downloaded the free version ages ago; is it worthwhile to buy the version on RPGNow?
Cleaned my work pc but off of the top of my head, I think it had the alchemy rules, more professions, things detailed more. It's about twice as long as the free version
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;319730By the way, a question for those who've bought Barbarians of Lemuria - what changes are there between it and the free version? I downloaded the free version ages ago; is it worthwhile to buy the version on RPGNow?
There's much more of everything.
For one, the setting has changed due to licensing issues, but is still very similar to the original. There are a few extra careers and they are explained better, there are now boons & flaws, which give you bonuses/penalties to your dice rolls and depend where your character is from, alchemy rules are in, the artwork and layout is vastly improved, weapon damage now uses just d6 rather than different die types, there are full creature stats and basic rules for creating your own creatures and magic rules are expanded. Oh and there are a lot more examples of everything. And it's available in print from LULU at the moment. This may change soon.
(also, BOL has a mint little Yahoo group, full of great ideas)
I think Jaws of the Six Serpents does a fantastic job of capturing the sword and sorcery genre. I like the open ended system and overall power level of magic in the game. That said, it's very much a story game and may not appeal to the more traditional RPG player.