Quote from: Aglondir on April 18, 2023, 07:26:55 PM
Star Wars D6 is not rules lite.

This is true.  Certainly the core elements are solid and easy to understand, but that doesn't mean "rules-lite".

Quote from: Brad on April 18, 2023, 08:58:20 PM
You can look at the character sheet and figure out what it means in two seconds. You literally roll the number of dice stated to hit a target number. That is it. How much "lighter" do you need it to be?

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2023, 10:33:29 PM
Bullshit.
I managed to get a bar full of drunks to create characters and start playing in less than 15 minutes using that game.

Quote from: Malaky on April 19, 2023, 12:42:14 AM
WEG 1E is rules light. It may not be today's version of rules light, but it is.   Character gen is 2 pages. The core rules of the game are 6 pages. You throw some d6s and add them up and maybe add a one or two to the total.

"It's rules-lite if you ignore the majority of the rules".

Quote from: Venka on April 20, 2023, 04:37:28 PM
"It's rules-lite if you ignore the majority of the rules".

Imagine posting this like you made a point...like, where is the evidence? Counterargument?

Quote from: Brad on April 19, 2023, 03:48:28 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on April 19, 2023, 03:20:24 PM
I guess it comes down to what the OP meant by "rules lite." He might look at the WEG book and say "No, that's way too much." I generally agree with your assessment that anything less than those 18 pages is going to be inadequate (I said 15, but whatever.)  But it really comes down to what the OP meant by rules lite.

What I've seen from the rules-lite crowd is they want something minimal, like Risus. Or "Lasers and Feelings," which is Star Trek in barely a page. As someone mentioned upthread, stuff like that tends to be a thought experiment with little value. Not my thing, but some people seem to enjoy it.

I dunno, those sorts of "rules-light" games are pretty...sparse. To the point you have to add a bunch of stuff to make them anything remotely resembling a real RPG. White Star could work, but it's not more simpler than WEG SW. I've tried to get into something like Microlite but when you start adding stuff that makes it fun it turns into B/X with ascending AC, so why even bother?

And yeah, OP needs to define what he means by that phrase, anyway. I think most RPGs are fairly rules-light for the most part but that's because I like SFB.

I've had this idea about very rules light games, originally something I thought of doing with OD&D but the post on Microlite 2020 revived:

Start a campaign with such a set and declare at the beginning you will add as you go.  Players can request ideas and its up to you to implement.

Note, ideas. They can request a paladin, but not the specific paladin from Supplement 1 or a given supplement, although you might use them. It would be written/selected based on what fits.

Quote from: Venka on April 20, 2023, 04:37:28 PM
"It's rules-lite if you ignore the majority of the rules".

Isn't that what the majority of "rules-lite" systems do? Copy most of the core mechanics of an existing system, then ignore the majority of the rules and content like ships and equipment and such?

If you fail to include anything in a game beyond the most basic stripped down core components, of course you're gonna have less content than a complete game full of supplementary stuff and campaign fluff, etc. Which is most of what the extra stuff in WEG Star Wars is, IIRC.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 20, 2023, 06:43:26 PMIsn't that what the majority of "rules-lite" systems do?

Id posit a rules-lite system is something that feels complete in that streamlined way. I hate FATE., but its more or less complete. While D&D 5e can be played with just a fighter, its not really "rules lite" is it?

Quote from: Brad on April 20, 2023, 05:14:02 PM

Quote from: Venka on April 20, 2023, 04:37:28 PM
"It's rules-lite if you ignore the majority of the rules".

Imagine posting this like you made a point...like, where is the evidence? Counterargument?

1e is pretty close, but it still has some fat to trim before I'd call it rules-lite.  A few examples:

Shooting Difficulty based on range which is divided up into 4 increments.  It's not bad, but I'd probably just make it S/M/L.

Damage based on two rolls with 4 possible outcomes and using varying multiples.  There has to be a simpler way. Maybe cut out the Str roll and make it a fixed damage threshold of some sort.

Take out the skills and just make it all attribute checks.  Similar deal with Force Powers.  Maybe at most allow a specialty of some sort to be declared.

Hold out blaster, sporting blaster, blaster pistol, heavy blaster pistol, hunting blaster, blaster rifle, blaster carbine, repeating blaster, medium repeating blaster, heavy repeating blaster all with different ranges and damage.  Cut that down to lite, med and heavy.

Grenade Scatter Diagram has to go.

Force Difficulty Chart with modifiers based on proximity and relationships which leans into...

...Not a fan of granular mods in a lite game.  Give me an advantage/disadvantage system of some sort.  It could be like D&D5e (roll extra die and take better/worse or just a flat +1d or -1d that can cancel each other. Do you have an advantage, +1.  Disadvantage, -1.  Something helping and something hindering they cancel.  In a lite system I don't want to be adding every + and - like a laundry list to get a balance.

Quote from: rgalex on April 20, 2023, 11:23:28 PM
1e is pretty close, but it still has some fat to trim before I'd call it rules-lite.  A few examples:

Shooting Difficulty based on range which is divided up into 4 increments.  It's not bad, but I'd probably just make it S/M/L.

Damage based on two rolls with 4 possible outcomes and using varying multiples.  There has to be a simpler way. Maybe cut out the Str roll and make it a fixed damage threshold of some sort.

Take out the skills and just make it all attribute checks.  Similar deal with Force Powers.  Maybe at most allow a specialty of some sort to be declared.

Hold out blaster, sporting blaster, blaster pistol, heavy blaster pistol, hunting blaster, blaster rifle, blaster carbine, repeating blaster, medium repeating blaster, heavy repeating blaster all with different ranges and damage.  Cut that down to lite, med and heavy.

Grenade Scatter Diagram has to go.

Force Difficulty Chart with modifiers based on proximity and relationships which leans into...

...Not a fan of granular mods in a lite game.  Give me an advantage/disadvantage system of some sort.  It could be like D&D5e (roll extra die and take better/worse or just a flat +1d or -1d that can cancel each other. Do you have an advantage, +1.  Disadvantage, -1.  Something helping and something hindering they cancel.  In a lite system I don't want to be adding every + and - like a laundry list to get a balance.

No, you're supposed to post memes not actual points!!!!!

Eh, I suppose you can do some of that stuff, but then the game isn't as evocative and doesn't say "Star Wars". This is exactly why I like the generic D6 games in theory, but in actual play they are just...flat. The system itself was designed for a certain style of play, and when you strip out all the background and flavor, it's essentially just rolling dice. The blaster argument is exactly what I was talking about before. This is just fluff...once you start playing someone will ask "what is the difference between the blaster Leia uses at the beginning of Star Wars and the one she uses in Return of the Jedi?" "Well, they're both light" is okay, I guess, but holdout vs. blaster pistol is more interesting.

RE: skills, the names themselves MAKE the game. "Repulsorlift OP" hammers it into your head you're PLAYING STAR WARS!!!! and not some generic scifi game. So, again, you can do all that stuff, but then you might as well just use White Star or something light and even easier.

Quote from: Brad on April 21, 2023, 09:00:13 AM
No, you're supposed to post memes not actual points!!!!!

Oh, shit, my bad.  My meme-fu is kinda weak.

Quote
Eh, I suppose you can do some of that stuff, but then the game isn't as evocative and doesn't say "Star Wars". This is exactly why I like the generic D6 games in theory, but in actual play they are just...flat. The system itself was designed for a certain style of play, and when you strip out all the background and flavor, it's essentially just rolling dice. The blaster argument is exactly what I was talking about before. This is just fluff...once you start playing someone will ask "what is the difference between the blaster Leia uses at the beginning of Star Wars and the one she uses in Return of the Jedi?" "Well, they're both light" is okay, I guess, but holdout vs. blaster pistol is more interesting.

RE: skills, the names themselves MAKE the game. "Repulsorlift OP" hammers it into your head you're PLAYING STAR WARS!!!! and not some generic scifi game. So, again, you can do all that stuff, but then you might as well just use White Star or something light and even easier.

I mean, I agree with you on most of that.  I quite like the system as is.  However, the OP was asking for lite systems and this is more on the lite end of medium, IMO.  You even seem to maybe agree at the end there where you contrast it to "White Star or something light and even easier".

Again, like others have said, I guess it just depends on where you draw that line in the sand between medium and lite.

It seems that D6 Star Wars straddles the divide between "Light" or "Medium" crunch. 

For me I'm just fine using Mini-Six instead of any of the WEG Star Wars games.  One caveat I have is I don't use the "Sense Danger" power at all.  I have my own "Deflect Ranged Attacks" instead.  I also let the GM set the difficulty of a spell on the fly.  It's easy to bend a spoon you're holding using telekinesis, but lifting an army tank out of the mud from a kilometer away sounds very, very hard. 

The games I'm thinking of modifying are games like Tiny D6 Frontiers, Swords and Six Siders, Pocket Fantasy, or Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool. 

Quote from: Malaky on April 19, 2023, 12:42:14 AM
While Star Adventurer is a great rule set for a Star Wars style game, it is missing one thing for me, NPCs. Even a few sample ones and suggestions on making more would have been helpful. If I wanted to do Star Wars with an OSR, I would use White Star before Star Adventurer. White Star I would also consider rules light since it is based on White Box: FMAG, which is a clone of the original 3 books for OD&D.

See, I'm the opposite.  I would use Star Adventurer over White Star, and my White Star would use the Between Star and Void supplement. 

You are right that some GM material like pre-made ships and NPCs would be nice. 

Getting back on topic.

I would say that if you like the D6 system then I would suggest looking at the Reup edition (someone lined to it in the thread).

It is quite good and free.

Makes me want to run Star Wars D6 again.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 19, 2023, 08:58:56 AM
I would say my issue with playing Star Wars is that it feels like the universe is so fleshed out that it doesn't feel like the characters can really make a difference in the universe.  The history is set.

It depends. 

I like playing in the non-canon MMO setting of Star Wars The Old Republic by BioWare.  Two great nations with thousands of Force Users per side. 

Or plan-B is to create my own Star Wars universe where things are familiar, but changes made to keep it fresh.  Like my version has Force Users created by their master in a knighting ceremony, weakening the master to make a level-1 beginning Force User.  Or cloning being unethical, but the high and snooty Republic resorts to it when they're on the verge of losing to the Empire who lacks any such morals.  Up till now everyone used inferior droid armies. 

Quote from: rgalex on April 21, 2023, 10:57:36 AM

I mean, I agree with you on most of that.  I quite like the system as is.  However, the OP was asking for lite systems and this is more on the lite end of medium, IMO.  You even seem to maybe agree at the end there where you contrast it to "White Star or something light and even easier".

Again, like others have said, I guess it just depends on where you draw that line in the sand between medium and lite.

I just want to touch on this idea using d6 Star Wars as an example.

For most games, I prefer using 2e R&E from WEG because it is balanced just right in that it includes a smattering of everything I want (skills, equipment, templates, creatures, aliens, droids, vehicles, starships, and a handful of world examples plus a primer on the Star Wars universe). 1e has too little of all of the above, 2e has is missing some important starship/vehicle/equipment modification/repair rules in 2e R&E, and REUP is everything which is a bit too much. For new players, I prefer the Star Wars Introductory Adventure Game because it is rules lighter than 2e R&E but is wholly comparable with it so I have room to grow as needed.

A lot of the factors which will determine whether or not the game you use is rules light depends on the experience level of your players and the comfort zone of the GM.

I had a coworker gather a few other coworkers and convinced them to try fantasy gaming and wanted me to GM. I suggested Labyrinth Lord because these guys and gals had never played a RPG before. My buddy decided to have them cut their teeth on Pathfinder 1e and loaned out his core rulebook. Half of those interested decided to drop out before the first game when they saw that 2-pound 600-page book and thought that they had to learn all of that before playing.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 21, 2023, 01:29:11 PM

Quote from: Malaky on April 19, 2023, 12:42:14 AM
While Star Adventurer is a great rule set for a Star Wars style game, it is missing one thing for me, NPCs. Even a few sample ones and suggestions on making more would have been helpful. If I wanted to do Star Wars with an OSR, I would use White Star before Star Adventurer. White Star I would also consider rules light since it is based on White Box: FMAG, which is a clone of the original 3 books for OD&D.

See, I'm the opposite.  I would use Star Adventurer over White Star, and my White Star would use the Between Star and Void supplement. 

You are right that some GM material like pre-made ships and NPCs would be nice.

I have a good deal of third party White Star which I've thought would go well with Star Adventurer.

Seriously, pick either one and use the other as a supplement. You'd be good either way.

Quote from: S'mon on April 19, 2023, 11:35:07 AM
I like how the stormtrooper Expy in the Mini Six version, the Centurion, has 18 dice of stats and is a badass. 

I'm thinking this is meant to be a player character template.  Actual cannon fodder grunts will probably be the stats from the sample characters, probably a 2 asterisk mook.