Tunnels and Trolls is almost always said to be the second published rpg, but rpg encyclopedia also lists Empire of the Petal Throne, Boot Hill, En Garde, and the Complete Warlock as being published in 1975. Does anyone know the order of publication of these titles?

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/encyclopedia/byyear/1975.html

It gets complicated. Of the ones you listed, Tunnels & Trolls was the first to be published for sale. Though Tekumel as setting predates D&D by at least 3 decades, and about 50 copies of a pre-release version of the 1975 version of the EPT were in circulation in the spring of 1974. There's also at least one other potential contender, basically a fan publication from some university gaming club, which predates T&T, though I forget the name. (Jon Peterson wrote about it on his blog somewhere.)

Quote from: Pat on January 31, 2022, 02:41:58 PMThere's also at least one other potential contender, basically a fan publication from some university gaming club, which predates T&T, though I forget the name. (Jon Peterson wrote about it on his blog somewhere.)

You're thinking of Craig VanGrasstek's Rules To the Game of Dungeon. It was "published" in the sense that he printed 50 copies to sell at a game convention. It is an interesting system in that it was made by a guy that had played with a guy that had learned the rules from some people from Arneson's group. So it preserves ideas that pre-date Gygax's changes (such as spell balls). Of note is the fact that there are no ability scores and levels go down (you start at level 10 and go down to level 1). Also, armor provides extra hit points instead of making you harder to hit.

The one rule that I like most of all is how it create a simplified, and more playable, version of Chainmail's Weapon vs Armor table. Each enemy has a small list of weapon and how they are affected. For example, Orcs are hit with sword on a 6+ (on 2d6) but hit by all other weapons on an 8+. A dragon, OTOH, are hit with a sword on 6+, a spear on 10+, and all other weapons a 9+ but a hit with a spear causes 10 damage (a normal hit is only 1 damage).

http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2012/08/rules-to-game-of-dungeon-1974.html

This game can be downloaded here. It is only 18 pages.

http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2014/08/1974-dungeon-variant-now-for-download.html

Quote from: Pat on January 31, 2022, 02:41:58 PM
It gets complicated. Of the ones you listed, Tunnels & Trolls was the first to be published for sale.

Does anyone know the dates of publication?

Quote from: markmohrfield on January 31, 2022, 04:50:20 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 31, 2022, 02:41:58 PM
It gets complicated. Of the ones you listed, Tunnels & Trolls was the first to be published for sale.

Does anyone know the dates of publication?

April '75.
https://www.garenewing.co.uk/tnt/interview.html

Not sure when in '75 EPT was published, I have this vague sense it was in the summer. If so, then I guess T&T still comes first.

OK I checked in Strategic Review and in issue 3 TSR announced EPT is "nearing completion" with release expected in or after July 75. In issue 4 it is listed for sale. So, late summer or early fall for publication of EPT.

As Pat notes, there was a homemade mimeo version of EPT in 1974, which I think was pretty clearly intended to serve as a playtest for eventual publication, but that doesn't really count.

The Tekumel setting was decades old at that point, but you could say the same of Middle Earth. The setting as setting for a game may go back to the 1950s. But that early game (never published) looks to have been a boardgame, structured in some way like Monopoly, but possibly with some notion of roleplay built in. The nature of Barker's 1950s game is not entirely clear to me, but  still, probably not really an RPG as we understand the term.

Looking back at the same source, Boot Hill is first listed for sale in issue 3, so sometime before July 75 (in issue 2 it is listed as "coming soon"). Hard to say when it was released exactly, probably after the beginning of April, but could follow pretty closely on T&T

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 31, 2022, 04:09:42 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 31, 2022, 02:41:58 PMThere's also at least one other potential contender, basically a fan publication from some university gaming club, which predates T&T, though I forget the name. (Jon Peterson wrote about it on his blog somewhere.)

You're thinking of Craig VanGrasstek's Rules To the Game of Dungeon. It was "published" in the sense that he printed 50 copies to sell at a game convention. It is an interesting system in that it was made by a guy that had played with a guy that had learned the rules from some people from Arneson's group. So it preserves ideas that pre-date Gygax's changes (such as spell balls). Of note is the fact that there are no ability scores and levels go down (you start at level 10 and go down to level 1). Also, armor provides extra hit points instead of making you harder to hit.

The one rule that I like most of all is how it create a simplified, and more playable, version of Chainmail's Weapon vs Armor table. Each enemy has a small list of weapon and how they are affected. For example, Orcs are hit with sword on a 6+ (on 2d6) but hit by all other weapons on an 8+. A dragon, OTOH, are hit with a sword on 6+, a spear on 10+, and all other weapons a 9+ but a hit with a spear causes 10 damage (a normal hit is only 1 damage).

http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2012/08/rules-to-game-of-dungeon-1974.html

This game can be downloaded here. It is only 18 pages.

http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2014/08/1974-dungeon-variant-now-for-download.html

That's it! Definitely worth a read, because it shows the convoluted history of early RPGs (VanGrasstek didn't even know that D&D existed, when he published the Game of Dungeon).

Released summer 1974, for the record.

Also Schoolastic "Sims" existed before D&D. Im not sure how early and to my knowledge none had any recognizable RPG elements in the normal sense. But there were systems in use. What? No clue. None of the periodicals I have seen mention any.