What's the best rpg for some good old plotting and scheming and maybe some backstabbing?
I like the Song of Ice and Fire rpg, but I am biased because I like the books.
I would love to see a politics RPG where one can play a scumbag like those folks on the city council in Bell. Kickbacks, embezzlement, bribes, what larks!
Probably the most overtly political game I remember was Underground, where in the future, Amendements to the Constitution have corporate sponsors. I personally refer to it as the MARSHALL LAW Role-Playing Game.
JG
Amber
Quote from: jibbajibba;807478Amber
No matter what, every Amber game I've ever played in or ran has turned into political scheming, 95% of it of the PC-vs-PC variety. I don't know if the diceless aspect has anything to do with it, but from the GM side, seems like players are much more likely to come up with all sorts of crazy crap when there are no obvious mechanics. Damn I love that game...
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807429What's the best rpg for some good old plotting and scheming and maybe some backstabbing?
I like the Song of Ice and Fire rpg, but I am biased because I like the books.
Traveller, using Imperial Nobles fighting for control of worlds, star systems, and corporations.
Although I have also heard good things about
Legend of the Five Rings.
Anyone got any experience using Dynasties & Demagogues for Penumbra? I ordered it from Noble Knight recently but it might be a while before I get to read it. I'm hoping it will prove useful for running political games although I'd want to run them with True20 rather than D20.
theres always Council of Wyrms.
Quote from: jeff37923;807487Traveller, using Imperial Nobles fighting for control of worlds, star systems, and corporations.
Although I have also heard good things about Legend of the Five Rings.
Is there a book about these nobles? I love nobles. I like them in Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire, Fading Suns and even in Houses of the Blooded (even though I don't like Fate). I guess it's a third imperium book.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807614Is there a book about these nobles? I love nobles. I like them in Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire, Fading Suns and even in Houses of the Blooded (even though I don't like Fate). I guess it's a third imperium book.
For T4 there is Pocket Empires and Mileu 0. For GT there is Nobles. For
Mongoose Traveller there is Dilettante and Dynasty.
Most of it is Third Imperium, but the subjects covered can be applied to any setting with dynastic houses of government.
Actually, in two and a half hours, my
Traveller game will center around a change in dynastic leadership for the world Marissa. The rules works nicely IMHO.
I think that creating a good political RPG campaign is almost entirely depending on the setting and the interactions between the PCs and potential allies, rivals, representatives of other factions and of course, each other. Gaming mechanics should have little influence on these interactions (enter rant about useless, over-designed social combat systems here); people usually manage to talk and make deals well enough without rolling dice.
Settings work well for political games when they allow for the players to be believable players on the political field, and conflicts of interest are both understandable and (most importantly) plentiful, and the game is open-ended enough to allow the players to influence not just their personal fate, but the political landscape on some scale.
The best example I can think of is the Kaldoran Succession Crisis sub-setting for HarnMaster: The king will die soon and has no legitimate heir, but there are dozens of potential new kings and kingmakers, allies and turncoats all over the place and the outcome is completely open. The kingdom is quite small and completely provincial, and the whole conflict, even if the situation will decline into a full-blown civil war, won't have a huge continental scale, which is completely great for introducing player characters into the mix, bcause they don't have to be the greatest politicians, demagogues or strategiests ever to still feel relevant in the context (chances are, the players won't be) and the relative small scale makes the different factions quite personal and accessible.
Quote from: Beagle;807651I think that creating a good political RPG campaign is almost entirely depending on the setting and the interactions between the PCs and potential allies, rivals, representatives of other factions and of course, each other. Gaming mechanics should have little influence on these interactions (enter rant about useless, over-designed social combat systems here); people usually manage to talk and make deals well enough without rolling dice.
Settings work well for political games when they allow for the players to be believable players on the political field, and conflicts of interest are both understandable and (most importantly) plentiful, and the game is open-ended enough to allow the players to influence not just their personal fate, but the political landscape on some scale.
The best example I can think of is the Kaldoran Succession Crisis sub-setting for HarnMaster: The king will die soon and has no legitimate heir, but there are dozens of potential new kings and kingmakers, allies and turncoats all over the place and the outcome is completely open. The kingdom is quite small and completely provincial, and the whole conflict, even if the situation will decline into a full-blown civil war, won't have a huge continental scale, which is completely great for introducing player characters into the mix, bcause they don't have to be the greatest politicians, demagogues or strategiests ever to still feel relevant in the context (chances are, the players won't be) and the relative small scale makes the different factions quite personal and accessible.
You really need to take a look at
Mongoose Traveller character creation. In the initial game, we created the two major political opponents for the PC and their motivations by randomly rolling and some choosing. Here is a link to a free download of Book 0: An Introduction To Traveller. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/58279/Book-0-Introduction-to-Traveller?term=book+0)
I actually do own it, I really like life-path based character creation, but I never had the opportunity to play Traveller. I do, however, have a -quite primitive - random event generator for character backgrounds, which we use for HarnMaster (and pretty much every other RPG; it is quite generic), for exactly the same purpose you describe: add some additional, random background events to the mix.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807429What's the best rpg for some good old plotting and scheming and maybe some backstabbing?
I like the Song of Ice and Fire rpg, but I am biased because I like the books.
All of them.
However not all settings support plotting, scheming, and backstabbing equally well. A Song of Ice and Fire RPG supports a specific setting which happens to feature nobles families fighting with each other. And devotes mechanics to detailing those houses.
But in the end it depends on the setting and style of campaign you are running.
And this kind of stuff is largely divorced from the mechanics you use to create characters and resolve combat with. It is easy to mix and match political/realm/etc mechanics from different system to get the exact feel and level of detail you are aiming for. The only limitation is the genre of the setting.
The following are my opinions on various games. Mostly focused on the fantasy genre.
ACKS has a nice integrated system that ties well to classic editions of D&D and 5e. Useful when you don't want to use a RPG with a skill system.
A Song of Ice & Fire RPG has a very nice gamable system for detailing noble houses. They also have the Chronicle line which expands the Asoiaf RPG into general fantasy. The only thing I don't like is that there is little to tie it back to real world numbers.
Harnmaster is the gold standard for me. Everything is given in real world units so you can translate it into just about any system you want. The centerpiece is Harnmanor especially the section that gives some nice tables to handle the life of the manor over the year. Also highly gamable being as complex as classic Traveller. But like classic Traveller it does involve a worksheet.
AD&D, OD&D, and D&D 5e have a nice set of basic mechanics. But it is just the basics. D&D 5e has a solid setup in the PHB and the DMG.
There is also the Magical Medieval Society series from Expeditous Retreat Press for 3.X/D20/Pathfinder. Western Europe and the Silk Road are both really good.
There is the system out of Kingmaker for Pathfinder but I find it too abstract with little to tie it back to real world numbers. It has been refined is part of the Gamemastery Guide and also part of the Pathfinder SRD.
Ars Magica has a excellent series of books detailing the life of a medieval society. The four are Art & Academe, City & Guild, Lords of Men, and The Church. The mechanics are perhaps tied too tightly to Ars Magica to port to other system. But the information is highly useful and covers many areas not found readily in other RPGs like Art & Academe.
GURPS 4e has the Low Tech series. However you have to do the work to extract the specifics for your campaign. Like much of GURPS the individual details are not particularly complex just they try to present everything under the sun.
Pendragon also has a series of good books useful to detailing the life of medieval kingdom. But like the Ars Magica it is tied tightly to the parent system.
My advice is that the power of a political campaign is not in the details of acres, men at arms, and gold coins. But in the personalities involves and their motivations. What mechanics and data give you are the hard numbers to determine that in a trade war or a battle does Lord A defeat Lord B. But what makes a political campaign is all the stuff that leads up to battles, duels, trade wars, law suits, courtly intrigue.
You can get by with a pretty basic set of mechanics and data and still have an awesome political campaign by having a great set of personalities for the PCs to deal with. Which is something that most RPGS can handle right out of the box.
Paranoia.
Quote from: estar;807683Ars Magica has a excellent series of books detailing the life of a medieval society. The four are Art & Academe, City & Guild, Lords of Men, and The Church. The mechanics are perhaps tied too tightly to Ars Magica to port to other system. But the information is highly useful and covers many areas not found readily in other RPGs like Art & Academe.
Thanks for all the info.
Ars Magica was the predecessor of Mage the Ascension, right? What I like about Ars Magica is the gamemaster's advice. It gives tips and examples for political stories as well as for treasure hunting, exploration, investigation and action-adventure. Much more practical than the focus on themes (
"Power leads to corruption.") that both old and new Mage do. It also doesn't have the scene-by-scene story-arcs, but it prefers an action-reaction interplay between the players and NPC's to form a story organically. What went wrong? If they would have sticked this kind of GM advice in any WoD book, it would improve them all a lot.
Depends partially in what you want to get out of the term, "political".
I always go back to the fact that the system you are playing had better affect the actions of the characters in the main arenas of usage. If you are plan on having the PCs do a bunch of sessions with mainly social interactions, maybe having rules and a system governing them is the way to go.
or else, you're really just playing make-pretend, or at best, playing the wrong RPG to match the game.
If you are playing a game where the main play is "talking and making deals", that's what the system should cover.
My main online game I'm running right now is, counting all sessions, over 80 now. It's mainly a social/political game, set in a school for magic in a huge city. There have been 3 combats in 80-odd sessions (and one is barely a combat, just a player slashing apart a ghoulish, necromantic bunny...really). So a combat-heavy system would be a poor match.
There is a lot of social interaction and building of relationships, as well as use of social skills like etiquette, lore, bluffing, lying, charming, etc. So these get a total of maybe 5-20 rolls a session.
The largest rolls are based on detection and magic.
So, while this is personal-level political (more social, with no real political power being used for 95% right now, though there is a lot of social class, etc), it fits some of the idea well. But not dealing with serfs, and mass combat, or realm management.
And this is just my opinion. If the play is fun, go nuts.
Quote from: LordVreeg;807846There is a lot of social interaction and building of relationships, as well as use of social skills like etiquette, lore, bluffing, lying, charming, etc. So these get a total of maybe 5-20 rolls a session.
That's what I mean. And probably a very layered setting with different organisations.
I always thought that
Houses (Of Parliament) Of The Blooded would be a fun game to play. High-stakes high-style melodrama for control of the 650 Seats of Westminster? Yeah, I think that could sustain a game.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807793Ars Magica was the predecessor of Mage the Ascension, right?
Sorta, kinda; Rein Splat Hagen was one of the designers, the first few editions were from Lion Rampant, but nowadays the official Mage and Ars timelines differ from , so there's some common history with WoD. And was published by Lion Rampant.
At one point it was kinda in the WoD timeline, but now it isn't and the timelines are completely separate (I think the Dark Ages line covers the era's wizarding, but I'm not sure when the timelines "officially" diverge).
Ars is great. More people should play it.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807854That's what I mean. And probably a very layered setting with different organisations.
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/67725545/Collegium%20Arcana%20Play%20Notes
like with dozens of Fraternal Orders and hidden secret forbidden brotherhoods and affiliations and honorary orders?
perhaps with the politics of a huge, ancient city as a backdrop...
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14956354/Stenron%2C%20Capital%20of%20the%20Grey%20March
with a political history with many subtle groups and movements...
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/73372199/The%20Politics%20of%20Stenron
And the intrigue of hundreds of Churches working to gain dominance...
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/68006822/Godstraat%20of%20Stenron
Indeed, this works out as the kind of game that goes on and on and on.
Per Vreeg's dictum, presumably Diplomacy is "just playing make-pretend" because we can make and break deals without 5-20 (or indeed any) dice rolls. After all, RPG stands for Rolling Pips Game ...
Quote from: Phillip;807861Per Vreeg's dictum, presumably Diplomacy is "just playing make-pretend" because we can make and break deals without 5-20 (or indeed any) dice rolls. After all, RPG stands for Rolling Pips Game ...
Well, the OP and title asked for best political RPG, not board game. SO my 'dictum' was about Role Playing Games.
And since Diplomacy is not an RPG, it really isn't in the equation. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)
This sounds like the start of another roll-player vs. roleplayer tiff.
:popcorn:
Quote from: Bren;807866This sounds like the start of another roll-player vs. roleplayer tiff.
:popcorn:
Gods, I doubt it.
some rules actually enable roleplaying.
And everyone GMs and enjoys games differently.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807793Thanks for all the info.
Ars Magica was the predecessor of Mage the Ascension, right?
Ars Magica is an independent game that eventually wound up with White Wolf because of the people involved became part of White Wolf and developing Vampire. For a short time during Ars Magica's Third Edition it was slated to be the early history of the World of Darkness but that connection was quickly broken as Ars Magica went off on its own way with a new company.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807793What I like about Ars Magica is the gamemaster's advice. It gives tips and examples for political stories as well as for treasure hunting, exploration, investigation and action-adventure
By and large Ars Magica adventures and supplements are good. The only odd thing compared to other RPGs is the troupe style they recommend. Players play a stable of characters, one a mage, another a companion (think leveled non-mage adventurer), and a grog (a henchman/hireling). Each session will represent a mix of characters with each player playing only one of his characters for that session. The general idea to make the campaign flow more naturally to allow the focus to be on one or two primary (mage) characters but still have something for the rest of the players to do.
Quote from: LordVreeg;807846I always go back to the fact that the system you are playing had better affect the actions of the characters in the main arenas of usage. If you are plan on having the PCs do a bunch of sessions with mainly social interactions, maybe having rules and a system governing them is the way to go.
Except that in the case of social interaction, of which politics is a subset of, the only essential mechanics is a referee willing to roleplay, handle and track the various NPC characters. In short it amounts to effectively referencing and keeping notes. Something that all tabletop RPGs inherently do by the fact they use a human referee.
Now if the group feels that characters ought to have differing levels of social skills. Then yes the system used should have mechanics to reflect the differences that are important to the setting.
I personally find the various social mechanics to be lacking except as a general guide as to the effectiveness of a specific action. I find too many social mechanics to be too abstract and attempt to stuff to much into a single roll.
Quote from: Beagle;807669I actually do own it, I really like life-path based character creation, but I never had the opportunity to play Traveller.
If you are ever in the Knoxville, TN area just drop me a line and we'll be glad to save a seat for you.
Quote from: estar;807885Except that in the case of social interaction, of which politics is a subset of, the only essential mechanics is a referee willing to roleplay, handle and track the various NPC characters. In short it amounts to effectively referencing and keeping notes. Something that all tabletop RPGs inherently do by the fact they use a human referee.
Now if the group feels that characters ought to have differing levels of social skills. Then yes the system used should have mechanics to reflect the differences that are important to the setting.
I personally find the various social mechanics to be lacking except as a general guide as to the effectiveness of a specific action. I find too many social mechanics to be too abstract and attempt to stuff to much into a single roll.
The italized portion is purely an opinion. I dig it, a lot of other old school players feel that way, I've played with and without it, and I get it...
But I think that your comment about the mechanics reflecting the social side is actually critical. IN a game where that is what you are playing.
Why?
Well, for one, the of of the underlying premises of the game is to be able to play a role whose abilities are defined by the rules and the chicken scratch on our character sheets. So if the sheet says we can cast a spell, or are amazing with a blade, well, then we are.
And in a political game, the kind we are talking about, if we are better at reading into relationships, or a +9% in lying, or have a 13% ability in church guild lore, the mechanics should support it the same as they support any other ability our character we are playling might have. Otherwise, that part of the game we are not playing our characters the same way as we do the rest of the game.
Secondly, what about improvement? You know, in most games, you get more HP and more spells and better at picking pockets and open hand slap fights...how does the game reflect being more charming? Being more imposing?
Sure, GM fiat can be used in a pinch, but if the mechanic for this whole side of the game is fiat...not much of a system.
But...many games weave in and out of the sociopolitical. And for those, it may be nice to have some skills, but not as critical.
Here is the basics for how we run them.
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/61603393/Declare%2C%20Roleplay%2C%20Roll%2C%20Recover
Quote from: LordVreeg;807902The italized portion is purely an opinion. I dig it, a lot of other old school players feel that way, I've played with and without it, and I get it...
But I think that your comment about the mechanics reflecting the social side is actually critical. IN a game where that is what you are playing.
Quote from: LordVreeg;807902Why?
Well, for one, the of of the underlying premises of the game is to be able to play a role whose abilities are defined by the rules and the chicken scratch on our character sheets. So if the sheet says we can cast a spell, or are amazing with a blade, well, then we are.
My thoughts are that the rules are a tool for adjudication. A lot of what goes into a campaign focused on politics are in essences notes. A lot of notes. Now a game can have aides to generate those notes, random tables, etc. But aides are not rules. They are there to help generate detail and content for a campaign.
And the content for a political campaign is in my opinion where most people flounder when they want to run one.
But once that content is generated then the campaign is in part about exploration of the relationships between NPCs, and the PCs exploiting those relationships to their own ends. It is only when a player has his character attempt a specific action that rules are needed to gauge how well that action was performed.
Where I think political campaigns, and for that matter any campaign focused social interaction flounder a lot is that a single social roll becomes way too important. It as if a party's combat with 20 orcs is resolved by a single die roll.
Yeah there are RPGs that do that but they are not really that popular compared to ones that break combat down to beats, rounds or seconds. Now due to the diversity of human interaction a formal system of social combat is often unsatisfying. And a situation where the character walks into court rolls a natural 20 and the Duke is now his best friend is also undesirable in my opinion.
The way to handle it through roleplaying, with the players and referee acting if they are there as the characters. And when something is said or done where failure/success have consquences or the results uncertain then the rules (skills, attributes, etc) are brought into play to adjudicate the rules.
I guess the difference between my approach in yours, is that I don't have players declare anything. I focus on getting them to think and act as their characters. Or at the least get them to focus as if they are there at the immediate setting of the encounter (many people don't want to act).
Then when I spot a point where a roll is needed I will call for one. Also at my table the player can interject that he wants to roll. Which corresponds to what you describe as declaration.
Quote from: LordVreeg;807902And in a political game, the kind we are talking about, if we are better at reading into relationships, or a +9% in lying, or have a 13% ability in church guild lore, the mechanics should support it the same as they support any other ability our character we are playling might have. Otherwise, that part of the game we are not playing our characters the same way as we do the rest of the game.
Or you handle it as a pen & paper virtual reality and track it through good notes. What this doesn't handle are characters naturally better or worse at diplomacy, lying, carousing, doing research. That you need rules like skills for. In some ways this is similar to the old school idea of player skill when figuring out traps, etc. However because human interaction is so basic to people being people it not as obscure or knowledge depending as giving the referee a plausible solution to disarming a poison needle trap.
Of course there are obscure lore about a specific setting that a player will not likely know. In which case it is up to the referee to properly brief the players if his character would logically have access to such information.
Quote from: LordVreeg;807902Secondly, what about improvement? You know, in most games, you get more HP and more spells and better at picking pockets and open hand slap fights...how does the game reflect being more charming? Being more imposing?
I handle it as a tally of friends, allies, patrons, enemies, rivals, etc. Pretty much how it works in real life. The downside of my techniques require that notes be kept. If it not remembered it doesn't exist.
The same with lore, it is kept a ledger of notes that the player can refer too.
Quote from: LordVreeg;807902Sure, GM fiat can be used in a pinch, but if the mechanic for this whole side of the game is fiat...not much of a system.
It not much in the way of mechanics. But if you as the referee are aware of the range of human interaction and personalities then there is a system. Not just one expressed in dice rolls and procedures.
Again what I am saying is not devoid of dice rolls or mechanics. Specific tasks need adjudication and it helps to have rules for them even if it is a general stat like charisma.
Quote from: estar;807876Ars Magica is an independent game that eventually wound up with White Wolf because of the people involved became part of White Wolf and developing Vampire. For a short time during Ars Magica's Third Edition it was slated to be the early history of the World of Darkness but that connection was quickly broken as Ars Magica went off on its own way with a new company.
Got my hands now on a 5th edition pdf and it reminds me a lot about WoD rpg's, but there are also elements that are very unlike the WoD. No story-arc writing, no endless talk about the themes and more focus to the world outside of the mage society.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807970Got my hands now on a 5th edition pdf and it reminds me a lot about WoD rpg's, but there are also elements that are very unlike the WoD. No story-arc writing, no endless talk about the themes and more focus to the world outside of the mage society.
My impression is that the principles behind Ars Magica were in the same social circle as the principles behind early White Wolf. So it not surprising there are similarities. And likewise since the split it not surprising that there are differences.
It also my impression that it developed into its own specialized interest similar to Harn, Golorantha, etc. This one focused on the Mythic Europe setting of the game. Hence all the supplements that expand the line beyond the focus of PCs playing mages. Because it is grounded in the same medieval wellspring that D&D and other fantasy RPGs sprang from there is a lot of useful material in the line.
Song of Ice and Fire, although Exalted also have social interaction rules.
Quote from: estar;807971My impression is that the principles behind Ars Magica were in the same social circle as the principles behind early White Wolf. So it not surprising there are similarities. And likewise since the split it not surprising that there are differences.
It also my impression that it developed into its own specialized interest similar to Harn, Golorantha, etc. This one focused on the Mythic Europe setting of the game. Hence all the supplements that expand the line beyond the focus of PCs playing mages. Because it is grounded in the same medieval wellspring that D&D and other fantasy RPGs sprang from there is a lot of useful material in the line.
Vampire the Masquerade had The Gilded Cage, a sourcebook detailing the corporate sector, the government and the underworld. It was obviously a bit campy as all oWoD was. Strangely enough there is not a thing like it in nWoD.
I like Ars Magica better. It is more practical than both WoD versions, but then again I seem to prefer pretty much anything over the WoD out of practical reasons.
Another vote for Ars Magica.
I'd be really hard pressed to say. I think most systems with some sort of social skills, good background and well - prepared factions for the given conflict, will do the trick. I'd say though that in political campaigns, if the system has flaws that are personality based, it is their time to shine - if the player's character is lecherous, his opposition will spy on him the easiest way possible. If he's honourable, well, we all know what happened to Ned Stark. If he's a craven, the Regent's strongarm will visit him in the night, reminding him where his loyalties should lie.
As for players' directly backstabbing, well...it gives me pain comparable to slamming my cock in the doorway (and yes, I have been there), but I have heard good things about (sigh) Burning Empire or whatever it was called by Crane.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807982Vampire the Masquerade had The Gilded Cage, a sourcebook detailing the corporate sector, the government and the underworld. It was obviously a bit campy as all oWoD was. Strangely enough there is not a thing like it in nWoD.
I like Ars Magica better. It is more practical than both WoD versions, but then again I seem to prefer pretty much anything over the WoD out of practical reasons.
Mage: The Ascension was essentially an attempt to answer the question, "If Clan Tremere were originally a House of the Order of Hermes, and mages still exist, then why can't they throw fireballs and turn people into lawn chairs?"
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;808065Mage: The Ascension was essentially an attempt to answer the question, "If Clan Tremere were originally a House of the Order of Hermes, and mages still exist, then why can't they throw fireballs and turn people into lawn chairs?"
JG
Well the Hermetic Magic as depicted in Ars Magica had specific limitations that didn't lend itself to D&D style fireballs. Turning people into lawn chairs was difficult and temporary at best.
Plus Ars Magica had Wizard's Twilight and Warping as a result of dabbling too long and too far into magic.
Ars 5th GM's advice starts with "Roleplaying game stories should not have
a plot in advance.". Something you would never see in a WoD game. Also it writes about active and reactive stories and it writes about exploration, treasure hunting, quests, cisis at home and politics. All with examples of stories.
Old mage writes a lot about "With power comes responsibility", new mage writes a lot about "Power leads to corruption". Themes that I understand, but I still have no idea how I can play that in a tabletop rpg. No idea how that plays out. Then they both write about possible conflicts (old vs new, order vs order, mage vs hunter etc.) without mentioning what it is that the pc's do. Combined with their focus on writing a story with different scenes it's just unpractical.
A shame really, because those games are very similar in setup to Ars Magica, but it makes it harder to run one than necessary.
Edit:
To be fair old mage has much better advice than new mage. New mage focuses so much on the personal themes and morality, it really doesn't offer anything I would be interested in doing.
Do you know games which actually have good advice on how to play out a political campaign?
Quote from: Rincewind1;808008I'd be really hard pressed to say. I think most systems with some sort of social skills, good background and well - prepared factions for the given conflict, will do the trick.
Agreed. I think that's why I got my hands on City of Clocks recently. It has the setting for politics.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;808334Do you know games which actually have good advice on how to play out a political campaign?
In that case, another vote for Ars Magica and Song of Ice and Fire. Amber too, but my own problem with Amber is, that it's Amber, and I just don't find that setting as one I'd like to play in.
I read a few other fora and one poster made the distinction between a Court and a Rulers game. The first is about intrigue and secrets and who likes who, the second is about resources like troops, allies and territory.
Mentioned are all the games we mentioned and Legend of the Five Rings and Pendragon. All coming from the same cloth I think. WoD settings are of course political as well, but they fail to give any advice on how to do a political campaign (as well as other gamestyles). L5R sets you up with several different campaign styles that can make you go to war, investigate weird murders or be a diplomat. Almost as broad as Traveller.
Oh, I saw Burning Wheel/Burning Empires getting mentioned as well as Houses of the Blooded. Those games might have some nifty tricks, but as a whole they are a little too arty farty for me. I am already struggling with Vampire which let's you play Mask & Dirge scenes and other stuff that only seems worth playing during downtime. So better not go there.
Quote from: NinjaWeasel;807510Anyone got any experience using Dynasties & Demagogues for Penumbra? I ordered it from Noble Knight recently but it might be a while before I get to read it. I'm hoping it will prove useful for running political games although I'd want to run them with True20 rather than D20.
I've found it at least moderately useful.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;807429What's the best rpg for some good old plotting and scheming and maybe some backstabbing?
I like the Song of Ice and Fire rpg, but I am biased because I like the books.
Amber
Lords of Olympus
Also, I don't know if I'd say "best" but certainly, Dark Albion: the Rose War will be a very good setting if you want to run a 'political' D&D campaign in the style of Game of Thrones.
Quote from: RPGPundit;808910Amber
Lords of Olympus
Also, I don't know if I'd say "best" but certainly, Dark Albion: the Rose War will be a very good setting if you want to run a 'political' D&D campaign in the style of Game of Thrones.
Song of Ice and Fire is inspired by the War of the Roses. So that makes sense. I will add them to my ever expending list of settings I am interested in.
With most systems you can guess how a character is designed: what his stats probably are, how much wealth he has, his miscellaneous "other" resources. His political standing and toughness is quantifiable. A 5th level warrior? You pretty well know what you're going to get.
With Amber and Lords of Olympus, you may guess, but you don't really know. Even if you physically fight another character they could be pulling punches and only appearing to be weaker than they actually are. And wealth and other resources could be just about anything. It takes a long while of role-playing to suss out what the other PCs or NPCs are packing.
Quote from: Doughdee222;808942With most systems you can guess how a character is designed: what his stats probably are, how much wealth he has, his miscellaneous "other" resources. His political standing and toughness is quantifiable. A 5th level warrior? You pretty well know what you're going to get.
With Amber and Lords of Olympus, you may guess, but you don't really know. Even if you physically fight another character they could be pulling punches and only appearing to be weaker than they actually are. And wealth and other resources could be just about anything. It takes a long while of role-playing to suss out what the other PCs or NPCs are packing.
I add an explicit political device to my amber games a council known as the Sanctum.
Added by Oberon to delegate responsibility, train his children and ensure they would constantly be at each other and no one could develop a power base in amber to rival him.
It focuses the political abitions and breaks down control of ambers political and military structures,pulls in noble houses and allies and creates a context to machinate in.
Our Clockwork & Chivalry game has a lot of political Factions and an optional mechanic for arbitrating political and religious debate and zeal. It seemed fitting for a game set in the time of the English Civil War.
Quote from: doomedpc;808971Our Clockwork & Chivalry game has a lot of political Factions and an optional mechanic for arbitrating political and religious debate and zeal. It seemed fitting for a game set in the time of the English Civil War.
Renaissance Deluxe includes a more generic version of that, right?
Quote from: 3rik;809023Renaissance Deluxe includes a more generic version of that, right?
Yes, that's right! More "Gang, Family, Guild" than the multitude of pretty specific political and religious differences in Clockwork & Chivalry - but the same principle.
Quote from: jibbajibba;808953I add an explicit political device to my amber games a council known as the Sanctum.
Added by Oberon to delegate responsibility, train his children and ensure they would constantly be at each other and no one could develop a power base in amber to rival him.
It focuses the political abitions and breaks down control of ambers political and military structures,pulls in noble houses and allies and creates a context to machinate in.
Part of what Lords of Olympus has is that there are three royal courts: Zeus' on Olympus, Hades' in the Underworld, and Poseidon's in sunken Atlantis. So there's a lot of room for political intrigue IN each of those courts and BETWEEN those courts in relation to each other.
In my experience, Legends of the Five Rings has been the best political RPG for me because combat is so deadly and the social rules so stringent that it makes for exciting tightrope walking.
Also, it helps if your players get that Rokugan =/= Historical Japan.
Quote from: RPGPundit;809063Part of what Lords of Olympus has is that there are three royal courts:
That's a really solid idea! Kudos!
Is LoO in print in stores? Or just POD?
Still think you need to advertise that game. Lots of teens freaking love the Percy Jackson series and the TV show Class of the Titans. There is a young audience for your game if you can reach them.
And if your publisher can't advertise, who cares? Authors gotta promote their shiznack. I attended a small publisher event (post-NaNoWriMo) and even pros claim they are doing their own junkets.
Quote from: doomedpc;809040Yes, that's right! More "Gang, Family, Guild" than the multitude of pretty specific political and religious differences in Clockwork & Chivalry - but the same principle.
So, if you're looking for a black powder era historical and/or fantasy toolkit and want to include politics, Renaissance Deluxe is a very vaible option!