The 7th sea thread made me wonder about this. With or without magic are both ok in this thread but not space pirates (it has to have, say, a 16-18th century feel)
Quote from: Trond;905826The 7th sea thread made me wonder about this. With or without magic are both ok in this thread but not space pirates (it has to have, say, a 16-18th century feel)
FREEPORT!
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0235/5929/products/grr1912e_450_7806b4e2-1c12-4701-a843-5bd862fa63eb_1024x1024.jpg?v=1418775243)
I've been participating in a few sessions of 50 Fathoms/Savage Worlds and I liked it, although I wouldn't consider it "best pirate RPG". ;)
So many systems to choose for Freeport and you pick Pathfinder? :D
I quite enjoy what I've read of Cakebread & Walton's Pirates & Dragons. It runs on their Renaissance system, basically a black powder era version of OpenQuest. They also have a OneDice version of it available.
Quote from: Krimson;905837So many systems to choose for Freeport and you pick Pathfinder? :D
Fixed it for ya! :p
(http://www.greenronin.com/images/product/grr1903_450.jpg)
BTW:
[video=youtube;XFTcA4QLHw0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFTcA4QLHw0[/youtube]
There's also Blood Tide, a pirate fantasy setting for BRP from Chaosium.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;905839Fixed it for ya! :p
(http://www.greenronin.com/images/product/grr1903_450.jpg)
Well I was just joking about the Pathfinder thing but yeah it's a great setting, though not really an RPG. I bought mine so I could use it with True20.
As for the OP's question, I don't know of any RPG specifically for that genre. In my experience the best pirate and ship based games were all run in AD&D 1e. A little searching and 7th Sea does seem to be the go to game for the genre without much in the way of competition.
The correct answer is Flashing Blades with the High Seas supplement, both of which are great and inexpensive and still in print at FGU's web site.
Runner-up: Pirates & Plunder, except there are no rules for ships.
Privateers & Gentlemen (also still in print from FGU) could easily be adapted for pirates.
Excellent modules for other games or generic games are also ok. But yeah, a dedicated game about pirates would be cool.
Don't let me ruin it for anybody, but I am not a huge D&D/ Pathfinder fan as a GM. I would totally go for it if someone else ran it though. Is Freeport a "piraty" part of a bigger setting?
Quote from: Matt;905848The correct answer is Flashing Blades with the High Seas supplement, both of which are great and inexpensive and still in print at FGU's web site.
Runner-up: Pirates & Plunder, except there are no rules for ships.
Privateers & Gentlemen (also still in print from FGU) could easily be adapted for pirates.
Thanks! I sure would like to learn more about Flashing Blades. (and it is possible that this is indeed the correct answer :D)
Quote from: Matt;905848Runner-up: Pirates & Plunder, except there are no rules for ships.
So... land pirates?
Quote from: Trond;905849Don't let me ruin it for anybody, but I am not a huge D&D/ Pathfinder fan as a GM
Freeport features sourcebooks for d20/True20/PFRPG/Savage Words/FATE/Castles & Crusaders/AGE/ and system agnostic version (IIRC). :cool:
QuoteIs Freeport a "piraty" part of a bigger setting?
No. You can connect it to pretty much any similar setting or play on its own. Just imagine a city, part Port Royal, part Novigrad + fantasy races, magic and a long, quite detailed history and you're halfway there.
Arrrrrrrrrrrrr...
I am a big fan of Pirates & Dragons.
Quote from: Matt;905848The correct answer is Flashing Blades with the High Seas supplement, both of which are great and inexpensive and still in print at FGU's web site.
Flashing Blades has good points, but there's too much table-referencing in its combat system for my tastes.
Personally, I was more of a fan of PEG's Pirates of The Spanish Main myself. But if you hate Savage Worlds, then I guess it can be a bit of a turn off. But for me, the setting information with the real world locations but the ambivalent timeline (It's somewhere in the 1700s, who cares what the actual date is) made it fun.
Too bad there was only the core book released.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;905866Personally, I was more of a fan of PEG's Pirates of The Spanish Main myself. But if you hate Savage Worlds, then I guess it can be a bit of a turn off. But for me, the setting information with the real world locations but the ambivalent timeline (It's somewhere in the 1700s, who cares what the actual date is) made it fun.
Too bad there was only the core book released.
Savage Worlds system is why I don't play this one. A friend and I went in on buying the book together and otherwise it's pretty good aside from the fantastical elements.
But there were all those neat little ships you could get for the card game and then use for the RPG instead (or as well). I still have those ships and use them. That and one of those "Toob of Pirates" tubes covers most of your prop needs.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905862Flashing Blades has good points, but there's too much table-referencing in its combat system for my tastes.
What table referencing? It comes with a handy GM screen that I hardly even look at. Most of what you need is right on the character sheet.
Quote from: Matt;905848Runner-up: Pirates & Plunder, except there are no rules for ships.
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. No rules for ships? That's like writing a fantasy game and not having rules for swords and shields.
Quote from: Doughdee222;905888Wait a minute. Wait a minute. No rules for ships? That's like writing a fantasy game and not having rules for swords and shields.
Come on, it's Matt, unless it's from the 70's it's utter shite and should be burned at the stake. Deal with it and move on.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;905835FREEPORT!
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0235/5929/products/grr1912e_450_7806b4e2-1c12-4701-a843-5bd862fa63eb_1024x1024.jpg?v=1418775243)
I've been participating in a few sessions of 50 Fathoms/Savage Worlds and I liked it, although I wouldn't consider it "best pirate RPG". ;)
Maybe things have changed, but Freeport is more like Disney's idea of pirates. I remember in the original book about it (the city book), there were more police than modern day cities have. There was an insurance company that worked by having a powerful artifact that people would swear by and it would force them to tell the truth. There was a store that sold Pokemon.
And there was a serious lack of sleazy/nasty stuff that real pirates practices. I can see wanting to skirt over that, but to avoid it completely?
So what's the Flashing Blades system like?
Quote from: JeremyR;905895Maybe things have changed, but Freeport is more like Disney's idea of pirates. I remember in the original book about it (the city book), there were more police than modern day cities have. There was an insurance company that worked by having a powerful artifact that people would swear by and it would force them to tell the truth. There was a store that sold Pokemon.
And there was a serious lack of sleazy/nasty stuff that real pirates practices. I can see wanting to skirt over that, but to avoid it completely?
So it's romanticized, funtimes, fantasy pirates? That's a pretty popular trope.
I ran a brief pirate campaign with Savage Worlds. What I found particularly good about it was the rules for Extras (mooks). It made ship-to-ship boarding actions with PCs plus the crews of both ships much more manageable. I'd advice leaning towards something that can handle large numbers of combatants easily.
ICE's RMSS compatible stand alone Run Out The Guns. Naturally!
There's always Woodland Warriors At Sea (http://beyondbeliefgames.webs.com/woodland-warriors-rpg)
But I agree with the earlier poster - Flashing Blades + High Seas.
Quote from: JeremyR;905895Maybe things have changed, but Freeport is more like Disney's idea of pirates.
Well, romanticized setting doesn't exclude "serious" in tone stories, just like any "serious" setting doesn't forbid people from playing light, tongue-in-cheek joke sessions.
On the streets of
Freeport you could've meet fantasy creatures, people using weird magic and selling exotic stuff belonging more to the lands of fairy tales than to our reality. Does it forbid the equivalents of Benito de Soto or Henry Avery from showing up and starting their reign of terror? Does it make the life of a pirate less dangerous and his "job" easier?
I see no reason for that, still you be the judge. :)
The answer is Crimson Cutlass.
The bigger question is hunting down a copy!
The PDF is on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Cutlass-Fundamentals-Book-One-ebook/dp/B00V0B88GQ#navbar
GURPS Swashbucklers. But for the source ideas.
I quite enjoyed running Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies, if you can cope with your pirates riding Giant Parrots and hitting people in the basket-weaving.
Quote from: Matt;905882What table referencing? It comes with a handy GM screen that I hardly even look at. Most of what you need is right on the character sheet.
You mean you can remember the hundreds of varying pluses and minuses in the combat section without looking at the tables!?
Had a feeling that Angus McBride must have made some cool pirate illustrations back in the day. So I looked it up, and sure enough :D
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Quote from: David Johansen;905904ICE's RMSS compatible stand alone Run Out The Guns. Naturally!
I actually have this! To my regret I haven't had a chance to do much with it. I like that it's not full-on Rolemaster spreadsheet char-gen, you add up two templates (nationality and profession I think) and are ready to go. And as I recall it had something neat going on around carousing, but it's been a while since I looked.
But Savage Worlds is more the go-to in my local gaming scene. There's actually a local SW pirates game just starting up right now. In fairness I like SW for swashbuckling more than for any other style of game, so I can see the attraction.
You may or not like Rolemaster attack and critical tables but at the very least the poster map is lovely and the material on the various careers is neat. The carousing attack table might get you in trouble but, " the night is young and so is this farmer's daughter. Hope she doesn't scream."
Quote from: David Johansen;905948You may or not like Rolemaster attack and critical tables but at the very least the poster map is lovely and the material on the various careers is neat. The carousing attack table might get you in trouble but, " the night is young and so is this farmer's daughter. Hope she doesn't scream."
I am actually pretty good at making Rolemaster work for the group. Simplify here, and post-it notes there :D
Just curious: does Run Out the Guns have good internal art?
Quote from: Matt;905848The correct answer is Flashing Blades with the High Seas supplement, both of which are great and inexpensive and still in print at FGU's web site.
I have all the FB stuff and I would not say that you are wrong.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905862Flashing Blades has good points, but there's too much table-referencing in its combat system for my tastes.
It does use several tables...but based on my experience with Runequest (where you also have a few tables) such things speed up with time and practice. I quickly memorized the D20 hit location table and I'm sure the same would be true for FB. The additonal tables for maiming are in the combat section, but they aren't used until after combat is over so they are not a problem in play.
What I suspect would actually add the most time would be me waiting for my players to guess which move they believe their opponent is going to make that turn and ensuring that I make a fair guess for the NPCs. It does reward actual player skill and does simulate some of the tactical options and opportunities of actual fencing.
Quote from: Trond;905897So what's the Flashing Blades system like?
It is like what you would get if En Garde (with its try to guess what your opponent is going to do ahead of time and then choose your move to take advantage) and D20 (with its roll 1D20 to figure out if you succeed in doing stuff) had an out of wedlock baby with Runequest 2 (with its hit location table, hit points per location, armor pts per location, and fumbles).
If you like Runequest, there is always the MRQ2/Legend Pirates (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/102959/Pirates-of-Legend) supplement.
Quote from: Trond;905952I am actually pretty good at making Rolemaster work for the group. Simplify here, and post-it notes there :D
Just curious: does Run Out the Guns have good internal art?
There was internal art?
Actually, what there is isn't bad, there's pictures of ships and of the character types.
I always wonder about people who couldn't make Rolemaster work. I think they never give it enough of a chance and make some mistakes like dropping the declaration of intent phase.
Quote from: David Johansen;905904ICE's RMSS compatible stand alone Run Out The Guns. Naturally!
Seconded.
Quote from: Spinachcat;905918The answer is Crimson Cutlass.
The bigger question is hunting down a copy!
The PDF is on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Cutlass-Fundamentals-Book-One-ebook/dp/B00V0B88GQ#navbar
Wow. The covers are deceptively simple-looking, but you were not kidding. Someone put a lot of work into this. Your linked book is actually only one third of the material.
Wow, great thread. I've been looking at Pirate games for inspiration for a little while, specifically Ship-related rules.
Do any of the games mentioned do something really unique or interesting with how ships and characters interact with each other?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905935You mean you can remember the hundreds of varying pluses and minuses in the combat section without looking at the tables!?
It's Matt, he's probably played it so long that he remembers the charts by heart, but assumes everyone else has as well. Despite never playing it. Ever.
I like 50 Fathoms in Savage Worlds the best. It maintains the era feel you are looking for as many famous pirates have been sucked into Caribdus from Earth such as Blackbeard. Humans are outsiders that have been taken from Earth and washed up in Caribdus. The world is dying because of the curse of the Sea Hags which is flooding the world and will eventually drown even the last few islands above the current water line at the start of the game. Caribdus has many native races including the human-like masaquani (different due to a much higher variation of hair and eye colors, usually with striking style), kraken (a dying race of warriors and elementalists), doreen (dolphin men also dying as they are being hunted to extinction by the kehana, a race of predatory fish men), scurrillions (crabby crab men good at mathematics and calculations), red men (the children of humans and savage ape men who are powerful but not so smart), grael (giant whale men who hunt in the frigid lands using their blubber to protect them from the cold), and the atani (a race of tree people good at gliding, doomed to extinction when the last forests are drowned). The machinations of the Sea Hags will flood and destroy the land, leaving nothing unless the PCs can break the curse. Lots of different races and archetypes that can be played, a great mix of fantasy and blackpowder weapons, all you need for play is the Savage Worlds Core + 50 Fathoms book with a huge PPC and excellent GM guide area by area. Ship battles work well with the chase combat or large scale mass combat systems of Savage Worlds. We found that even with Savage Worlds fast combat battles were a bit too slow when it came down to individual ship on ship crew battles, so we used the more abstract toolkits in Savage Worlds available to speed up gameplay as our fleet grew beyond just one ship and as the game went on shied away from boarding actions.
If you want just pirates and no magic, Pirates of the Spanish Main is excellent for pirate play in the Age of Sail in Savage Worlds as well.
Cakebread & Walton also did a really good job with Pirates & Dragons as well. Dragons hoard gold and pirates want to steal it, its an easy mesh.
Quote from: Krimson;905837So many systems to choose for Freeport and you pick Pathfinder? :D
Got to admit, I also thought it an odd choice:).
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905935You mean you can remember the hundreds of varying pluses and minuses in the combat section without looking at the tables!?
There's like 3 tables I needed for a whole duel in the combat system and 1 or 2 of them might not come up. When I ran my Flashing Blades campaign, I copied them to fit on a single A6 page, and everything else was indeed on the character sheet;).
Quote from: AsenRG;906147Got to admit, I also thought it an odd choice:).
Why? Neither PFRPG is a stranger to maritime stories, nor its
Freeport edition is relatively bad. :p
Quote from: Matt;905848The correct answer is Flashing Blades with the High Seas supplement, both of which are great and inexpensive and still in print at FGU's web site.
Runner-up: Pirates & Plunder, except there are no rules for ships.
Privateers & Gentlemen (also still in print from FGU) could easily be adapted for pirates.
I agree and highly recommend Flashing Blades. Airship Pirates are also a great game if you want that steampunk vibe.
Quote from: Trond;905897So what's the Flashing Blades system like?
A rather simple one - it's one of those percentile systems where you just have increments of 5%, so you roll D20 instead of D100. And combat is fun and excellently geared towards emulating the swashbuckling classics, while remaining simple - my own tip'd be to grab a deck of cards and mark them as combat maneuvers, so both sides declare without knowing what the other'll do.
Honor+Intruige work excellent as a pirate game. Even covers ships and naval combat and the time era is right.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;906040It's Matt, he's probably played it so long that he remembers the charts by heart, but assumes everyone else has as well. Despite never playing it. Ever.
Have you cheered yourself up by lashing out for no reason? What a moron.
Quote from: Matt;906234Have you cheered yourself up by lashing out for no reason? What a moron.
Why would I need to cheer myself up? What a strange question.
No, I am just noting a pattern of behaviour you exhibit. You clearly have a fondness for a specific type of game, and always come in, pretty much like Gronan does with some sort of vaguely authoritarian statement as if your way should be the only way.
As I said with Rolemaster, if you want to play a game with tons of charts it's reall not such a big problem if you use post-it notes or something similar. Somehow I don't think Flashing Blades has more charts than Rolemaster, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;906237No, I am just noting a pattern of behaviour you exhibit.
People in glass houses... This is where I get to point out one of your own patterns, where your head splits open and bats fly out whenever anyone dares mention 'OSR'.
I'm pretty sure we all have observable preferences and dislikes.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;906158Why? Neither PFRPG is a stranger to maritime stories, nor its Freeport edition is relatively bad. :p
I think the Pathfinder guide to Freeport came out later than several of the others. I'm sure it's perfectly fine and if I walked into someone's house and Pathfinder was on the table I'd be making a character. For me though, Pathfinder isn't the first system that comes to mind when I think of Freeport.
Quote from: Trond;906239As I said with Rolemaster, if you want to play a game with tons of charts it's reall not such a big problem if you use post-it notes or something similar. Somehow I don't think Flashing Blades has more charts than Rolemaster, but correct me if I'm wrong.
it doesn't - it has charts for profession progression and downtime events, and a combat chart, since combat is based on dueling maneuvers. That's pretty much it, plus a few usual charts such as equipment etc.
Rolemaster I think'd best benefit now from a digital edition with hyperlinks. Or even a fully digitalised edition, with those fancy charts just appearing as you hoover over an appropriate term.
Quote from: Krimson;906256For me though, Pathfinder isn't the first system that comes to mind when I think of Freeport.
I have no problem with that. The way it was stated, I thought there's some inherent problem in PFRPG that makes it "wrong" choice for pirate-y sessions.
Call it "oversensitivity" or something. ;)
Quote from: JesterRaiin;906304I have no problem with that. The way it was stated, I thought there's some inherent problem in PFRPG that makes it "wrong" choice for pirate-y sessions.
Call it "oversensitivity" or something. ;)
My system of choice for naval based games has always been AD&D 1e, so I'm sure Pathfinder is fine.
Quote from: Matt;905848The correct answer is Flashing Blades with the High Seas supplement, both of which are great and inexpensive and still in print at FGU's web site.
Runner-up: Pirates & Plunder, except there are no rules for ships.
Privateers & Gentlemen (also still in print from FGU) could easily be adapted for pirates.
Correct. If you like pirate/musketeer sorts of games and don't know Flashing Blades, then you need to stop hating yourself and go buy a copy.
Finished a pirate campaign about 3 months ago that was D&D 3.5 with Green Ronin's Skull & Bones supplement. It was way over the top and kinda fun...
Absolutely nothing wrong with DnD 3.x (or Pathfinder) for pirates. I had a lot of fun with a 3.5 game where I was playing a Bard/Rogue Captain of a ship in a game set along a desert river. One of our last adventures was raiding a pyramid and defeating a mummy to steal treasure before the campaign abruptly ended.
Pirates from New Dimension Games if pretty great.
Decent system, covers pretty much every piratey thing including cargo, trade, etc.
Homepage: http://www.newdimensiongames.com/pirates1.htm
A review: https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14887.phtml
Quote from: baran_i_kanu;907705Pirates from New Dimension Games if pretty great.
Decent system, covers pretty much every piratey thing including cargo, trade, etc.
Homepage: http://www.newdimensiongames.com/pirates1.htm
A review: https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14887.phtml
Sounds good!
So there seems to be several obscure but great pirate games out there.
In general; for a more or less historical game I think I would choose the 1600s myself, but it seems that many others prefer the 1700s?
Quote from: Trond;909124In general; for a more or less historical game I think I would choose the 1600s myself, but it seems that many others prefer the 1700s?
Most centuries have their pros. I'm doing the 1620s myself. But don't forget the 1500s. For English speakers, the Elizabethan period has a lot of information available and for sea battles you have the English Sea Dogs like Drake and Grenville, the Spanish Armada, and the Battle of Lepanto and you are still in the age of exploration so a sand box style game with exploration is interesting and feasible.
And if you go late 1700s early 1800s the Napoleonic period has Nelson, Hornblower, Aubrey & Maturin, etc.
Quote from: Trond;905826The 7th sea thread made me wonder about this. With or without magic are both ok in this thread but not space pirates (it has to have, say, a 16-18th century feel)
Twin Crowns d20 is still my game of choice for pirate age-of-sale based games. This is 0e/3e DnD compatible If I wasn't able to run that, I'd also endorse Iron Crown Enterprises
Run Out the Guns as it is a very very robust and detailed Age-of-Sail based game. This was the RoleMaster version of a Pirates game in the 90's, and is very good.
Seven pages and narry a mention of FGU's Skull & Crossbones? OK, it wasn't that great, and I do like Pirates & Dragons better, but it had a nice map of the Spanish Main. And a proper war gamey map & counters sea battle system.
Quote from: Bren;909134Most centuries have their pros. I'm doing the 1620s myself. But don't forget the 1500s. For English speakers, the Elizabethan period has a lot of information available and for sea battles you have the English Sea Dogs like Drake and Grenville, the Spanish Armada, and the Battle of Lepanto and you are still in the age of exploration so a sand box style game with exploration is interesting and feasible.
And if you go late 1700s early 1800s the Napoleonic period has Nelson, Hornblower, Aubrey & Maturin, etc.
Yeah, I agree, the 1500s are often under-appreciated as a pirate setting, although it should be excellent. The action could be set in either the Mediterranean or Carribbean, or elsewhere.I once made a lot of notes for a BRP game set in 1500s Venice, though not very focused on pirates per se. Venice was still a force to be reckoned with in the Mediterrenean, and the Ottomans too. Portugal was also a powerful entity in the seven seas, rivaling Spain until the union in 1580 etc etc.
1500s inspirational illustration :D
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/93/62/81936256bc7c428d14252bb6b167e9bc.jpg)
Quote from: Trond;909124Sounds good!
So there seems to be several obscure but great pirate games out there.
In general; for a more or less historical game I think I would choose the 1600s myself, but it seems that many others prefer the 1700s?
Quote from: Bren;909134Most centuries have their pros. I'm doing the 1620s myself. But don't forget the 1500s. For English speakers, the Elizabethan period has a lot of information available and for sea battles you have the English Sea Dogs like Drake and Grenville, the Spanish Armada, and the Battle of Lepanto and you are still in the age of exploration so a sand box style game with exploration is interesting and feasible.
And if you go late 1700s early 1800s the Napoleonic period has Nelson, Hornblower, Aubrey & Maturin, etc.
The reason I like Pirates of The Spanish Main by PEG, is because they don't actually settle on a year or period but hover around '16-1700' in terms of feel and prefer using fictional characters.
Found this interesting image online, apparently showing Havana in the late 1600s.
(http://www.ricsartshop.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/17thcentury240-late%201600s-cuba-havana-city-view.jpg)
That tower is wild. It has a very fantasy look...or did the Moors actually beat the Spanish to the New World. :D
1. Take your favorite RPG
2. Add pirates
3. ???
4. Profit
On a more serious note, the one swashbuckling game I've run in the past used Savage Worlds (yeah, I know. Gets the job done) but I'd love to try Flashing Blades, Honor & Intrigue and (why not) Runequest.
Quote from: Trond;909124Sounds good!
So there seems to be several obscure but great pirate games out there.
In general; for a more or less historical game I think I would choose the 1600s myself, but it seems that many others prefer the 1700s?
Quote from: The Butcher;9098821. Take your favorite RPG
2. Add pirates
3. ???
4. Profit
On a more serious note, the one swashbuckling game I've run in the past used Savage Worlds (yeah, I know. Gets the job done) but I'd love to try Flashing Blades, Honor & Intrigue and (why not) Runequest.
That doesn't work with D&D without massive houseruling with certain editions, simply because armour is your dodge, and the more you have, the more nimble in combat you are.
But for the most part, I agree with you.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;909901That doesn't work with D&D without massive houseruling with certain editions, simply because armour is your dodge, and the more you have, the more nimble in combat you are.
WTF?
D&D Armor Class is an abstract measure of how hard it is to hit a given target for damage. Part of this is difficulty to hit the target e.g. DEX bonus to AC and Bracers of Protection and part of it is difficulty to penetrate or avoid the armor e.g. plate armor vs leather armor.
Unlike D&D, games like Runequest/BRP, GURPS, D6 games, and Barbarians of Lemuria/Honor+Intrigue armor separate difficulty to hit and difficulty to damage once a hit is made. In those systems armor is a measure of how hard it is to damage someone once they are hit. While, dodge, defense, and often active/reactive parries are measures of how difficult it is to hit someone in the first place. Once they are hit, one looks to see if the armor is overcome (which may mean penetrating the armor or just hitting where the armor wasn't). That's why dodge or defense often are penalized in those kinds of systems when wearing heavier armor.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;909901That doesn't work with D&D without massive houseruling with certain editions, simply because armour is your dodge, and the more you have, the more nimble in combat you are.
But for the most part, I agree with you.
Yes, it makes for low ACs and more hits. But what it really needs is for the DM to adjudicate when combatants are likely to go overboard, keeping the fear of drowning alive in PCs' armor-loving hearts lest every boarding becomes a skirmish between heavily armored fighters. I wouldn't call that "massive" but YMMV.
In any case I, too, would go with a somewhat less abstract combat system, if only to skip the "OMG it's D&D I
need heavy armor" knee-jerk reaction from players; :)
Quote from: Bren;909914WTF?
D&D Armor Class is an abstract measure of how hard it is to hit a given target for damage. Part of this is difficulty to hit the target e.g. DEX bonus to AC and Bracers of Protection and part of it is difficulty to penetrate or avoid the armor e.g. plate armor vs leather armor.
That's all crap. It's a bunch of wag to deflect the fact that the more AC you have the more likely your not going to take damage. It's a binary thing. Either you're hit or not. A dodge mechanic, avoidance. And unlike armour whjch does scale as long as you get magical versions of whatever set you can use, a character will never gain any skill at avoiding blows when out of it.
It's why a lot of people walk around towns fully geared, because if they get into trouble, it doesn't matter how much they have in terms of hit points, they're as easy to hit as a level 1 character outside their gear.
Hence, why Pirate games don't really work well in D&D, because at it's very basic core, AC relies entirely on armour for the older editions.
Quote from: Bren;909914Unlike D&D, games like Runequest/BRP, GURPS, D6 games, and Barbarians of Lemuria/Honor+Intrigue armor separate difficulty to hit and difficulty to damage once a hit is made. In those systems armor is a measure of how hard it is to damage someone once they are hit. While, dodge, defense, and often active/reactive parries are measures of how difficult it is to hit someone in the first place. Once they are hit, one looks to see if the armor is overcome (which may mean penetrating the armor or just hitting where the armor wasn't). That's why dodge or defense often are penalized in those kinds of systems when wearing heavier armor.
In those other games, armour is damage reduction which is actually closer to how real life does armour. Yes, deflection plays a part in it, but most suits of armour is designed to absorb as much impact as it can, if it can't deflect it completely.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;909945That's all crap. It's a bunch of wag to deflect the fact that the more AC you have the more likely your not going to take damage. It's a binary thing. Either you're hit or not.
Uh....you do know that binary means two things, not three things, right?
Either you are hit or your not
is two things. You got that right. But the rest of what you wrote is...well wrong actually.
Once you are hit, i.e. touched, then either you are damaged or you are not damaged, so that gives us a total of three things, not two.
- Not touched.
- Touched but not damaged.
- Touched, i.e. hit and damaged.
Moreover, damage in D&D and any other game with hit points, isn't binary. You might be damaged for 1 pt, 2pts, 3pts, etc. So very much not binary. So three basic states and then lots of minor versions of the taking damage state. Really, really not two things.
QuoteIt's why a lot of people walk around towns fully geared, because if they get into trouble, it doesn't matter how much they have in terms of hit points, they're as easy to hit as a level 1 character outside their gear.
You really don't understand hit points or armor class at all, do you?
I don't particularly like increasing hit points and D&D armor classes. It's one of the reasons I haven't played much D&D or games of that sort since 1980. But understanding how they work and what they represent in melee combat isn't too difficult. I thought you played D&D. So what's your excuse for totally misunderstanding the system you use?
QuoteHence, why Pirate games don't really work well in D&D, because at it's very basic core, AC relies entirely on armour for the older editions.
Entirely...Oh, except for increasing hit points by level that means higher level characters can fight longer than lower level characters, like Errol Flynn in a pirate movie. Mustn't forget that, so there's just that one thing...and DEX bonuses to AC, good dexterity is probably at a premium for folks who climb rigging for a living and swing between ships on ropes and fight without a lot of armor in every boarding action. OK so two things...oh hang on a minute, we are talking about D&D where magic is often common. So there are Bracers of Protection, Rings of Protection, Cloaks of Protection, and Displacer Cloaks those all decrease the amount of damage one will take regardless of armor. So three things....and spells. Spells like Mirror Image and whatever that Clerically thing that gives a bonus (Stoneflesh or whatever it's called came later). So four things. But except for those four things pirates totally don't work in D&D. :rolleyes:
That's why all the characters in my old D&D world ran about at all times in plate armor...oh wait. Everyone except almost all of the NPCs who mostly didn't wear armor heavier than chainmail.* And almost all the PCs who also mostly didn't wear armor heavier than chainmail. But other than most of the NPCs and most of the PCs, yeah sure everyone was in plate armor all the time. :rolleyes:
* For various reasons, e.g. they wanted to be able to swim or climb well, or to outrun other people in plate armor and some of the monsters, or they couldn't afford plate armor, or plate armor wasn't readily available in the place they were living, or wearing plate armor was socially frowned upon in polite society and well ordered cities for people who weren't actually at war or employed by the authorities who regulated society, or they were quirky SOBs and DOBs who wanted to wear something other than plate for reasons of comfort and style.
QuoteIn those other games, armour is damage reduction which is actually closer to how real life does armour.
D&D combines not being touched by an opponent and being touched and not damaged because your armor deflected or absorbed the blow as the same thing. Not being hit for damage. I don't like it. You may not like it. But it does what it is intended to do. If you don't like what it does, there are lots of games that don't combine those three things into two things. Check one out.
Quote from: The Butcher;909936Yes, it makes for low ACs and more hits. But what it really needs is for the DM to adjudicate when combatants are likely to go overboard, keeping the fear of drowning alive in PCs' armor-loving hearts lest every boarding becomes a skirmish between heavily armored fighters.
In the Captain Alatriste series, Perez-Reverte describes Iñigo, one of the characters, wearing a breastplate specifically designed to be easy and fast to remove in the event he went overboard. I thought that was sensible. Given the author's attention to the details of Spain's Golden Age, I suspect it is also historical.
Quote from: Bren;909963Uh....you do know that binary means two things, not three things, right?
Either you are hit or your not is two things. You got that right. But the rest of what you wrote is...well wrong actually.
Once you are hit, i.e. touched, then either you are damaged or you are not damaged, so that gives us a total of three things, not two.
- Not touched.
- Touched but not damaged.
- Touched, i.e. hit and damaged.
Moreover, damage in D&D and any other game with hit points, isn't binary. You might be damaged for 1 pt, 2pts, 3pts, etc. So very much not binary. So three basic states and then lots of minor versions of the taking damage state. Really, really not two things.
Oh dear. It seems you're conflating two separate mechanics into one without realizing it. And you've just proven that you have little idea how AC reallty works. Worse, you've actually hit on the problem that AC and Hit Points have: Two separate mechanics that actually cover most of the same thing.
See, AC removing all the garbage about it being skill, armour, chutzpah, Tuesday on Jupiter, gravity and wind shear, does one single thing: Did the D20 roll past it's threshold? If Yes, Roll Damage Die. If No, Move On To Next Item On Checklist.
That is it, that's all. Are you hit or not. End of Line.
Hit Points and Damage are completely different mechanics that require more than one die to determine. Things like size/class/ of weapon, or just the weapon itself. The roll there is random, but it doesn't matter if you rolled a 10 or a 20 on the To Hit Roll. Even if you're using the sometimes optional Critical Hit rules, you could in theory roll less on that mechanic than a normal strike. Neither roll have anything to do with each other past, the D20's determination that it hit the Target Number or not. You can describe it as you like (I do) but in reality, and I'm going to repeat this, the severity or how well you hit doesn't matter past maybe multiplying or adding dice.
Critically hitting for 2 points on a multiplied D6, and then hitting regularly and rolling a single d6 for max damage proves my point well enough.
The thing is, both mechanics are DESCRIBED as somehow being interlinked but that's just fluff. You apparently bought into it, not realizing that mechanically speaking they don't really do as people claim.
And the only thing that affects AC is Magic and Armour. And Magic includes spells and items, like Rings/Cloaks of Protection, Bracers of Defense and the various tiers of enhanced armour. Except for one or two class, the Monk and Barbarian and that's highly dependant on the edition your playing. Well, 4e tried to change that up to no one's wishes. Except maybe mine.
I'll give this one more try on the off chance that someone who can actually read and understand words on a page is still reading and gives a shit.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;909973Oh dear.
Someone pass Chris the smelling salts, the poor dear seems to have fainted like somebody's maiden auntie.
QuoteThat is it, that's all. Are you hit or not. End of Line.
Rolling to hit and comparing to AC in D&D determines if you are hit
and damaged. Not if you are simply hit. I know this is confusing to people who are unused to a language where the same word has multiple meanings and nuances of meaning and who are lacking adequate secondary education. Which is why later editions of D&D introduced the idea of using AC 9 or the lowest AC for determining whether a touch attack succeeds. Because the designers, unlike you, knew that an ordinary hit in D&D really meant "hit the target and did damage" and it did not mean hit or touched the target
without doing any damage.
QuoteHit Points and Damage are completely different mechanics that…
The only aspect of hit points that is relevant to the pirate question is that increasing hit points corresponds to increases in level and level is a proxy measure for increased skill in fighting (or wizarding or clerking).
So if we have two pirates, Billy* who is a 1st level pirate (with 1d8, let's say 5 hit points) and Peter Blood who is 7th level pirate (and has 7d8, let's say 30 hit points). If both Billy and Peter wear the exact same (poor) armor because they are pirates, we will, in D&D still see a sea battle a lot like the ones in the Errol Flynn movie
Captain Blood where Peter, the 7th level pirate will be able to cut his way through several Billies without Peter getting killed. Because his armor class is low, Peter will take hit point damage, but hit points in D&D are a fuzzy and abstract measure. The key feature of which is that Peter is not dead, or missing a leg, eye, or hand after he gets "hit" a few times by the low level pirates.
Even if Captain Blood has to face, Sancho, a 1st level Spanish soldier wearing a helmet and back and breast equivalent to an AC that is say a step or two lower than D&D full plate armor, we would still expect Peter Blood to beat at least a couple of Sanchos despite a fairly big difference in their AC. And to be fair, Peter Blood has a good DEX (just watch Errol Flynn jump around and slash his rapier about) so his AC is better than no armor.
For the math lovers, we can even crunch some numbers.
Spoiler
Using my OD&D combat table, we assume Billy and Peter are each AC 9 (no armor), but Peter gets a +1 to his AC for his superior DEX. Sancho the Spanish soldier has AC 5 (he has no shield, an open helmet, and only a back & breast without vambraces or greaves so I call that 2 AC worse than knightly plate armor.
1st levels like Billy and Sancho use the first column of the combat table so they hit (and damage) AC 9 on a 10 or better and Peter’s DEX enchanced AC 8 on an 11 or better, i.e. 50% of the time.
Peter is 7th level so he uses the third column of the combat table so he hits (and damages) Billy on 5 or better (80%) and Sancho on a 9 or better (60%). We’ll assume their weapons– rapiers and cutlasses, do the same damage: 1d6.
Each hit that does any damage, does 1d6 damage or an expected value of 3.5. So to kill Billy or Sancho, Peter Blood needs to score at least 5 points of damage. In 2 rounds Peter will do 2 x .8 x 3.5 = 5.6 points of damage, which is enough to kill Billy. In those same two rounds Billy will get (at most) 2 attacks. Which will do 2 x .5 x 3.5 = 3.5 = 4 points of damage to Peter. Nowhere near enough damage to kill Captain Peter Blood. Hmm... seems like this pirate thing might work after all. Who knew?
Now let’s pit Captain Peter Blood against 3 pirates just like Billy. - In the first 2 rounds Peter kills 1 pirate and takes 3 x 2 x .5 x 3.5 = 10.5=11 points of damage (we round in Billy’s favor). Peter now has 30-11=19 HPs.
- In the next 2 rounds Peter kills the 2nd pirate and takes 2 x 2 x .5 x 3.5 = 7 points of damage. Peter now has 19-7 = 12 HPs.
- In the next 2 rounds Peter kills his 3rd and last pirate and takes 1 x 5 x 3.5 = 1.75 = 2 points of damage. Peter now has 12-2=10 HPs.
Peter has killed all 3 enemy pirates. He has lost 20 HPs and he still has nearly twice as many HPs as an ordinary level 1 pirate like Billy. And in this example, we played the clever Captain Peter Blood as too dim to maneuver so that he doesn’t have to fight 2 or 3 opponents at the same time.
Now let's try some Sanchos. Facing the relatively heavily armored Spanish soldiers, Peter is going to be a bit more clever and cautious and maneuver so he only has to fight at most 2 Spaniards at one time. Spanish soldiers do damage at the same rate as Billy the pirate. Captain Peter Blood will do damage at the rate of .6 x 3.5 = 2.1 = 2 points of damage per round. So it now takes Peter an average of 3 rounds to kill an opponent.
- In the first 3 rounds Peter does 6.3 points of damage and kills Sancho #1. In those 3 rounds the Spaniards do 2 x 3 x .5 x 3.5 = 10.5 =11 points of damage. Peter now has 19 HPs.
- In the next 3 rounds Peter kills the 2nd Spaniard and in those 3 rounds that Spaniard does 1 x 3 x .5 x 3.5 = 5.25 = 6 points of damage (we still round against Peter). So Peter ends this fight with 13 HPs and 2 dead Spaniards.
- Note that if the clever Captain Blood can maneuver so as to only fight 1 opponent at a time, he will be able to slice his way through quite a few opponents since the expected damage per round for a single opponent is less than 2 HPs.
- Also note that if we use initiative, about half of the time in the last round of combat, Peter’s opponent will not get to strike, reducing the damage of a pirate like Billy to only 3 points over 2 rounds. That means it will take an average of 20 rounds for a sequence of solo pirates to do enough damage (30 points) to kill Peter Blood. And in those 20 rounds we would expect Peter to kill 10 of those pirates.
Now in any half way reasonable game universe, sometime before the 10th pirate steps forward, I’d expect the remaining pirates will probably fail their morale roll and as a consequence they will surrender, rout, retreat, or at least refuse to be the next dumb fuck who volunteers to step forward so Captain Blood can spill
his blood.
QuoteAnd the only thing that affects AC is Magic and Armour.
And DEX. You forgot DEX. Again. At least this time you did remember the Magic Bracers, and Spells, and shit that you ignored the first time.
* He won’t even get a sobriquet like “Bones” to take on until he’s at least 2nd level.
D&D pirates have always worked just fine.
I've played plenty of OD&D on the seas games.
Want an easy houserule? PCs get +1 AC per level when not wearing armor (max +10). Boom. Done.
Quote from: Bren;909963So what's your excuse for totally misunderstanding the system you use?
Pretty much everyone on the site would love to know the answer to that fucking question.
Quote from: Bren;909982Rolling to hit and comparing to AC in D&D determines if you are hit and damaged.
Where do you get the damaged part?
One LEADS to the other, but they're two different mechanics. Because if you don't hit, then you don't get to use the Damage system.
And, I didn't include Dexterity because it's a one time bonus that rarely (Only three editions allow you to actually increase it, 3-4-5e) scales, unlike armour and magic spells like Armour or items like Bracers of Defense.
If you want to combine two mechanics and claim they're one, that's your problem, but they are not a single mechanic.
This is why to make a D&D pirates game you need to house rule.
And adding character level to AC is something I tried back in AD&D 2e for a Swashbuckler-ish game, which lead to an incident that meant that at tenth level, it was smarter for the rogue to not wear the Leather Armour +2, because being nakers was better on defense, and the Wizard having the best AC for a long time. Didn't occur to me to maybe do it +1 per two levels until I saw 4e, but by that time... Few years too late, sadly.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910020Pretty much everyone on the site would love to know the answer to that fucking question.
No, actually, I couldn't care less.
Right. I just thought of an interesting twist, that could make pirate games more fun for some, depending on taste: being a pirate hunter rather than a pirate. This could mean that the players are actually Spanish for instance (though not necessarily of course, the French, English and Dutch also hunted down pirates). This would be interesting from the point of view that in pirate books/movies/whatever the Spanish are usually portrayed as the bad guys, conveniently dressed in black (but that really was the Spanish fashion). I could also mention that the Spanish employed a lot of Italians.
One good thing about being a pirate hunter is that portraying pirates as the bad guys should be pretty damn easy :D
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910026Where do you get the damaged part?
By reading the rules then applying logic and common sense.* How is it that you are confused by the notion that damage must be done for hit point loss to occur and that in D&D a "hit" means a hit that also does damage?
It's always been obvious that the to-hit roll in D&D uses a single roll to answer one complex question. (Here complex doesn't mean difficult, it means a question with more than one part.)
The question is,
Did the attack reach the target and get through, past, or around the target's armor and do damage? (The words "do damage" just mean the attacker gets a damage roll the result of which subtracts from the target's current total of hit points.)
If the answer is YES, then a damage roll is made using the appropriate dice or die.
If the answer is NO, then the attack either completely missed the target or it impacted the target but didn't get past the target's armor to do any damage.
Ponder this for a while then let me know which part(s) of this you disagree with.To help your thinking, here's a little thought exercise. Let's say your bright and shiny paladin is riding his special paladin horsey down the main street of the nearest town when a mischievous street urchin tosses a horse turd at your paladin's shiny breastplate. Did he hit? How does the GM figure out the answer to that question? And if the turd does hit, how many hit points of damage did the turd do?
* The common sense required is readily available to street urchins and elementary school children.
Quote from: Trond;910041One good thing about being a pirate hunter is that portraying pirates as the bad guys should be pretty damn easy :D
True. The difficulty is that historically there were almost no good guys. Just different bunches of bad guys under different flags. But I like the idea of subverting the usual anglophile pirate trope of the Spaniards being the bad guys.
Quote from: Bren;910047By reading the rules then applying logic and common sense.*
But the problem is that you're missing an important reason as to why AC isn't part of the Damage system. There are basic rules that damage you, without ever touching your AC: Falling damage, pits, dragon breaths, poisons... Everything that makes someone roll dice for damage, but requires a Saving Throw to lessen or avoid. Except spells, because each spell is actually an exclusionary rules block that doesn't interact with the base system that effects every PC and quite few Monsters too.
You're saying 'logic' and yet, you're missing key facts and claiming I'm wrong.
It's like have a cake and a bowl of icing and proclaiming both things are what makes up every cake, but completely ignoring that coffee cakes often don't have icing. Icing ADDS to a cake, but isn't the cake.
AC works WITH the Damage system, but they're separate parts. Because, like I said, you can be damaged without worrying about AC.
As for having a Pirate Hunter game... Technically, every game I've ever run of Pirates of The Spanish Main has been one. Even the Privateer game, in which the players had Letters of Marque that allowed them to pillage Spanish ships, they went and hunted down Spanish Privateers and other pirates.
It's been a really weird thing with my campaigns there. I pretty much let my players do what they want, drive the game their way, but every single time, they claim t'be wantin' a pirate-y game, they be th'ones huntin' them bastards down.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910358But the problem is that you're missing an important reason as to why AC isn't part of the Damage system. There are basic rules that damage you, without ever touching your AC: Sure there are damage methods that don't use AC. There are even attacks that don't affect hit points e.g. Save vs. Death. But none of those things have anything to do with the point at issue which was your claim that AC caused D&D to be unplayable as a pirate game without massive house ruling.
Let's review where this started. In response to Trond and The Butcher who were talking about pirate and swashbuckling games you said the following.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;909901That doesn't work with D&D without massive houseruling with certain editions, simply because armour is your dodge, and the more you have, the more nimble in combat you are.
You don't discuss problems for pirates for saving throws or falling damage. You are focused on armor. You claimed that the problem is "because armour is your dodge, and the more you have, the more nimble in combat you are." If it were true, which it is not, that heavily armored fighters in D&D were actually more nimble* than people in no armor you might have a point. But of course heavily armored fighters move slower and don't climb or jump better than do people in no armor, in other words they are less, not more nimble. Heavily armored fighters are, of course, more resistant to taking damage than is someone in no armor.
QuoteYou're saying 'logic' and yet, you're missing key facts and claiming I'm wrong.
I'm not missing key facts. I'm ignoring facts that are irrelevant to discussing your claim that one cannot use D&D to play a pirate game without massive house ruling...because unarmored pirates will be less nimble than knights in armor in a game of D&D as written.
QuoteIt's like have a cake and a bowl of icing and
Playing D&D in a pirate setting has nothing to do with cakes or icing.
Quote from: Bren;910051True. The difficulty is that historically there were almost no good guys. Just different bunches of bad guys under different flags. But I like the idea of subverting the usual anglophile pirate trope of the Spaniards being the bad guys.
Now take Sir Francis Drake/The Spanish all despise 'im
But to the British he's a hero/And they idolize him
It's how you look at buccaneers/that makes 'em bad or good
And I see us as members of/ a noble brotherhood
Quote from: daniel_ream;910373Now take Sir Francis Drake/The Spanish all despise 'im
But to the British he's a hero/And they idolize him
It's how you look at buccaneers/that makes 'em bad or good
And I see us as members of/ a noble brotherhood
Exactly.
Quote from: Bren;910363Sure there are damage methods that don't use AC. There are even attacks that don't affect hit points e.g. Save vs. Death. But none of those things have anything to do with the point at issue which was your claim that AC caused D&D to be unplayable as a pirate game without massive house ruling.
Let's review where this started. In response to Trond and The Butcher who were talking about pirate and swashbuckling games you said the following.
You don't discuss problems for pirates for saving throws or falling damage. You are focused on armor. You claimed that the problem is "because armour is your dodge, and the more you have, the more nimble in combat you are." If it were true, which it is not, that heavily armored fighters in D&D were actually more nimble* than people in no armor you might have a point. But of course heavily armored fighters move slower and don't climb or jump better than do people in no armor, in other words they are less, not more nimble. Heavily armored fighters are, of course, more resistant to taking damage than is someone in no armor.
I'm not missing key facts. I'm ignoring facts that are irrelevant to discussing your claim that one cannot use D&D to play a pirate game without massive house ruling...because unarmored pirates will be less nimble than knights in armor in a game of D&D as written.
Playing D&D in a pirate setting has nothing to do with cakes or icing.
Yeah, I'm done. You're not willing to see past your own biases. Not willing to actually point out where I'm wrong, just ignoring what facts you don't like. That's just unproductive.
Oh well, I was hoping for more. I expect too much, I guess.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910487Yeah, I'm done. You're not willing to see past your own biases.
This might be funny. If it was meant as a joke. But I'm afraid it wasn't.
As regards ignoring facts, as far as this discussion is concerned I'm ignoring non-Euclidean geometry, the Calculus, Corporate Strategy, the works of Thucydides, the bulk of Shakespeare's plays, why the sky appears blue, the air speed velocity of both African and European swallows, the hair, eye, skin color, and gender of everyone on this and other threads, WWII, Major League Baseball's standings for the year 1935, and the writings of Karl Marx. I ignored those (and many, many other) facts because they aren't relevant to the discussion. The facts you have provided like critical hits and save vs dragon breath are similarly irrelevant to a discussion of why armor class in D&D is a problem for playing swashbuckling pirate games. So I have ignored them and will continue to do so until someone shows how they are actually relevant to the topic you raised.
Chris, I pointed out the several ways in which your claim that a good Armor Class correlates to good nimbleness is wrong. I provided several examples to demonstrate that your claim was wrong. You didn't contradict the points I made nor the examples I provided. Instead, you ignored them and chose to toss out unrelated and irrelevant facts and an unsupported claim of bias.
I hoped for better, but I can't really say that I expected it. I have observed that you have some weird tics about D&D. I don't know why, and frankly I don't much care. But those tics make your contribution to most D&D related topics unproductive.
As the bard said,
QuoteIt is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910358As for having a Pirate Hunter game... Technically, every game I've ever run of Pirates of The Spanish Main has been one. Even the Privateer game, in which the players had Letters of Marque that allowed them to pillage Spanish ships, they went and hunted down Spanish Privateers and other pirates.
It's been a really weird thing with my campaigns there. I pretty much let my players do what they want, drive the game their way, but every single time, they claim t'be wantin' a pirate-y game, they be th'ones huntin' them bastards down.
I am not surprised. Many players like to think that they're the good guys :D
FWIW I am rather clueless about the intricacies of different D&D editions, but I don't think it would be my first choice for a swashbuckling game. The times I played AD&D it seemed too abstract to really get into the thrust-and-parry of things.
Huh. Someone actually made a full size (51 m/ 170 ft) modern replica of a 17th century Spanish galleon called El Galeon Andalucia. Pretty cool.
(http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/Images_things/SpanishGalleon-12Oct14.jpg)
(http://www.trbimg.com/img-5419fbe5/turbine/ph-ph-h-ph-ac-el-galeon-andalucia-tall-ship-jpg-20140917)
That's nice. :) Info and more photos here (http://www.elgaleon.org/galleons.html).
Great pics!
Awesome replica work!
As for armor and pirate games, one of the major problems armor has is that it weighs you down and makes you less effective at swimming. 50 Fathoms has a rule where leather armor (15 lbs. normal armor, legs, torso protection) doubles its weight when you are in the water and has the same effective weight as metal ones like chainmail hauberk (25 lbs for arms, legs, torso), and plate corselet (30 lbs. for torso protection only) as a result. This effectively makes armor weigh 25-30 lbs. in the water which means characters with d4 strength just can't wear armor and swim without an encumbrance penalty of -1 and d6 characters can't carry much else or be encumbered as well. So you have a lot of NPC characters and some PCs simply eschewing armor because it can kill you if you fall into the ocean which is more of a daily threat to life than cannons and swords when you live on a ship. And if you do need to go swimming and wear armor regularly, you need to take it off to swim effectively which takes quite a bit of time (usually three rounds or more unless you have help).
Its been forever since I played D&D 3.5 (2010 is my guess), but I remember there being a doubled Encumbrance penalty on Swim checks. So heavy armor and/or lots of gear really punished swimming. So for my Bard/Rogue it was light armor, leather armor with no armor check penalty and small arcane spell failure chance which got upgraded to a mithral chain shirt later before the campaign ended. The real problem with heavy armor is a massive penalty to Swim checks which can lead to the heavily armored character being awesome in a fight on ship but drowning in his massive tin can if he falls in the water.
I second 50 Fathoms. A cool pirate setting with a spin. I have my reservations about my system. But the setting is awesome and it's easy to dive in and start playing as is with most SW settings.
Ooh, armoured pirates falling overboard and having to swim, what fun! There are videos on Youtube showing that it is possible to swim in armour. Generally you can go about as far as you can hold your breath while swimming in plate, lifting one's face far enough out of the water to breathe being the difficulty.
This may or may not be relevant as I doubt most pirates could swim. Many of the ocean fishermen I know can't swim. They figure that they will freeze before they drown if they fall overboard. Given the temperature of ocean waters, I don't think they are much wrong. Add to this that the ship would have to notice that Mr Bones had fallen overboard, think him valuable enough to rescue, come about to sail back to where he was, throw him a line or launch a boat, and his chances of rescue even if he can swim are looking pretty slim. And don'tforget the sharks! In a proper pirate RPG there are always hungry sharks in the water.
Actually sharks don't like the taste of human flesh. It's why they usually take a huge chunk of the victim (who is often dead or missing a limb at the very least) and swim away.
Yes, I know. Most shark bites on humans are exploratory. "What is this? I think I'll bite it and see if it's good to eat. Yuck!" Unfortunately for us these nibbles still cause massive traumatic tissue loss. But don't tell my players that...
Quote from: DavetheLost;912682This may or may not be relevant as I doubt most pirates could swim. Many of the ocean fishermen I know can't swim.
Historically, the vast majority of sailors did not know how to swim. Swimming was a pretty rare skill for a very long time. This only seems weird to us today, because most of us took swimming lessons as little kids.
Quote from: Trond;905826The 7th sea thread made me wonder about this. With or without magic are both ok in this thread but not space pirates (it has to have, say, a 16-18th century feel)
I like Pirates of Legend, it has excellent atmosphere and the rules just work and fit the setting very well.
The Vasa (http://www.vasamuseet.se/en) mueum holds an actual 17th century warship for anyone interested. I was lucky enough to see it in person.
It's a little obscure but the is also a Pirates of Dark Water rpg that may fit your needs.
Quote from: Bunch;915872The Vasa (http://www.vasamuseet.se/en) mueum holds an actual 17th century warship for anyone interested. I was lucky enough to see it in person.
The Vasa ship museum is cool. But the Vasa ship, like the Mary Rose before her, had some nautical design difficulties. The museum had a cute computer program that let you try out different variables like gun weight and sail area for your theoretical ship design. Then the computer would show you how your ship performed in different winds.
Quote from: Bren;916144The Vasa ship museum is cool. But the Vasa ship, like the Mary Rose before her, had some nautical design difficulties. The museum had a cute computer program that let you try out different variables like gun weight and sail area for your theoretical ship design. Then the computer would show you how your ship performed in different winds.
That's a very practical tool!
Quote from: RPGPundit;917186That's a very practical tool!
And fun to watch your 100 gun man-o-war tip over and sink in a strong breeze, too!
I'm sorely tempted to get Pirates of the Spanish Main.
For those familiar with it, how compatible/redundant is it with Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer's edition? Does it add anything that I can't already wing with just the core rules?
EDIT: Regardless, very excited 'cause I scored about 200 ships from the foldable card game on eBay. Man they're neat.
Quote from: Necrozius;917411I'm sorely tempted to get Pirates of the Spanish Main.
For those familiar with it, how compatible/redundant is it with Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer's edition? Does it add anything that I can't already wing with just the core rules?
EDIT: Regardless, very excited 'cause I scored about 200 ships from the foldable card game on eBay. Man they're neat.
100% compatible. I own both books.
Crimson Cutlass
Honor+Intrigue
Flashing Blades + High Seas
Quote from: Necrozius;917411EDIT: Regardless, very excited 'cause I scored about 200 ships from the foldable card game on eBay. Man they're neat.
I hate you.
Wanna trade dupes?
Flashing Blades.
I played Pirates & Plunder back in the 80's and remember it better than its reputation today, but I haven't seen it in decades. Immsurprised no one mentioned Star Frontiers (TSR), but I imagine space pirates was not really what the thread was looking for.
Quote from: slayride35;912025As for armor and pirate games, one of the major problems armor has is that it weighs you down and makes you less effective at swimming.
If you're swimming, armor isn't your problem - not being on the ship is.
If you're in the water, you already fucked up.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;936589If you're swimming, armor isn't your problem - not being on the ship is.
If you're in the water, you already fucked up.
Hah!
Yeah, we had that discussion awhile back when my WFRP campaign went nautical. One player (Mister Mail - the guy who always asks about sleeping in his armour, etc) straight away went to "how will my armour affect my swimming?"
I just cackled.
Quote from: DavetheLost;905861I am a big fan of Pirates & Dragons.
I want to hear more about this game!
Somebody start a thread!
Quote from: Trond;906012Wow. The covers are deceptively simple-looking, but you were not kidding. Someone put a lot of work into this. Your linked book is actually only one third of the material.
Crimson Cutlass is freaking amazing. It was decades ahead of its time, but it had no marketing.
Quote from: Telarus;906021Wow, great thread. I've been looking at Pirate games for inspiration for a little while, specifically Ship-related rules.
Do any of the games mentioned do something really unique or interesting with how ships and characters interact with each other?
Yes! Crimson Cutlass uses a Tarot deck and pieces of eight (D8s), but beyond the flavorful bits, the real cool stuff is how the systems work.
Chargen - its based first on major Traits, then on a few skills. But your combat talents grow only by being involved in combat and you can lose your talents if your fail because its based on your confidence to pull off manuevers in fights.
XP - instead of XP, you have to hit a bunch of generally defined goals and then you level. You will often have to stretch outside your PCs comfort zone to achieve the various goals.
Combat - you declare your PC's general intention and the cards and dice tell us exactly what your PCs just did. It's fast, flavorful and deadly.
Sandbox via the Fates - the GM introduces a beginning, but the cards and dice lead us into various possibilities interpreted by the GM based on the adventure. The PCs must drive toward their goals and the world is constantly in motion around them with distractions, diversions, and luck both good and bad.
Quote from: baran_i_kanu;907705Pirates from New Dimension Games if pretty great.
Decent system, covers pretty much every piratey thing including cargo, trade, etc.
Homepage: http://www.newdimensiongames.com/pirates1.htm
A review: https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14887.phtml
New Dimension Games does good work.
Here's my review of NDG's Pirates
https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14887.phtml
Here's my review of NDG's Fantasia: the Book of All Knowing (aka, his very cool faux-LOTR game)
https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12068.phtml
Le Pavillion Noir, no contest:).
Second place goes to Flashing Blades, Honour+Intrigue, and Mythras (though it would need the right supplement, but can also do viking pirates).
Spellbound Kingdoms also deserves a mention, but it doesn't have a big nautical section, though the upcoming supplement might change that;).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;909901That doesn't work with D&D without massive houseruling with certain editions, simply because armour is your dodge, and the more you have, the more nimble in combat you are.
But for the most part, I agree with you.
I'm planning to start a 5e D&D pirates campaign in January using an adaptation of Paizo's
Skull & Shackles. My thinking is to replace Heavy Armour Proficiency with the Barbarian 'Unarmoured Toughness' ability where you add your CON bonus to AC while unarmoured. Or it might make more sense to make it the STR bonus instead ('Indomitable?') since (a) STR is underpowered in 5e and (b) parrying and dodging both relate more to strength than toughness. The idea is simply to produce reasonable ACs that work with the game.
Feat
Sealegs: You gain proficiency with the Athletics skill and gain a +2 bonus to AC when not wearing any armour. You also gain Advantage with saving throws made to avoid the Prone condition.