My brother has a play group that switched to a couple OSR games.  Basic Fantasy at first because of the low costs, but they're interested in others.

I got my brother a full set of Hyperborea 3E books as well.

However, now they're looking into any OSR with non-Vancian magic rules.

I was thinking Shadowdark is a good one. 

Or Palladium Fantasy 1E.  Yeah, I know it's not OSR.  However, we're old school Palladium gamers back in the day, so maybe stick to your roots?

What would you suggest?

I like Shadowdark's roll to cast.  Which didn't originate with Shadowdark, but that's neither here nor there.

Something like Venger's Crimson Dragon Slayer has spells costing hit points.  I haven't played a game with those spellcasting rules,  but I don't mind the idea.

In Knave, you cast spells from a spellbook.  But a spellbook contains only one spell.  So you would have a "Fireball" book, for example.  So if a magic user wants to cast lots of spells, they would need to carry around lots of spellbooks.  But a PC's inventory has its limits.  And if you're carrying around lots of spellbooks, your inventory slots won't be used for weapons and armor, which also take up inventory slots.  I like this approach as well.

Can anyone explain why Mana Points are so rare?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 18, 2025, 07:36:05 PM...
I was thinking Shadowdark is a good one. 
...
What would you suggest?

Download the SD QuickStart, which is most of the game.

Pick the OSR game that you like that has an ascending AC option.

Port over the SD roll to cast method to that game. Adjust the miscast tables to taste, done.

SD Tier = Spell Level.

It is literally one of the easiest rules hacks you can ever do. Just dead simple.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 18, 2025, 08:45:15 PMCan anyone explain why Mana Points are so rare?

We'll, it is a method popularized in the rpg hobby by RuneQuest, and that icky BRP d100 roll-under system.

So gross. We're talking about systems for playing "D&D" here damnit! Proper elf-games, not that plant-elf hippie shit.

That being said; it's also one of the easiest rules hacks you could ever do.

Spell Level = Mana cost.  To determine starting Mana: (Wis + Con /3) + caster level. So your MU is able to cast more over time.

Divide Wis + Con by 4 or 5 for PC classes that aren't full casters.

Or some other method to determine the Mana / power level of casters in your game.

Instead of wands and staves holding a specific number of spells, they hold extra Mana. Which is why other wizards want to steal them, and everyone else wants to destroy them.

Either way the conversion is minimal.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 18, 2025, 07:36:05 PMOr Palladium Fantasy 1E.  Yeah, I know it's not OSR.  However, we're old school Palladium gamers back in the day, so maybe stick to your roots?

What would you suggest?

Why do you think Palladium 1e isn't OSR? Traveller is. Older RQ is, along with a host of other games. OSR is just older games, not just TSR.

I agree Shadowdark is easy to check out and port into other games, but I feel DCC is definitely worth a look (I consider it OSR, others may disagree) and the variability it add with the tables for each spells provide a unique vibe that I don't get in other games.

In Whitehack/ Outcast Silver Raiders you pay HP to cast.

Forbidden Lands also has a nice solution but I consider it OSR adjacent

I would suggest Lion & Dragon, or Baptism of Fire, or the Invisible College (if you want modern), or Star Adventurer (if you want sci-fi).

None of my games have Vancian magic.

Quote from: a_wanderer on January 19, 2025, 03:59:05 AMIn Whitehack/ Outcast Silver Raiders you pay HP to cast.

How does it handle healing spells? The original AFF used this method and ended up making healing essentially free IIRC

Quote from: Joey2k on January 21, 2025, 11:36:35 AM

Quote from: a_wanderer on January 19, 2025, 03:59:05 AMIn Whitehack/ Outcast Silver Raiders you pay HP to cast.

How does it handle healing spells? The original AFF used this method and ended up making healing essentially free IIRC

WH has Magick interference, meaninh the Wise cannot heal by magick and trying a scroll on himself would trigger a save to have no effect, failure eans something bad happens.

similarly, in OSR, Sorcerers cannot heal themselves or other Sorcerers.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 18, 2025, 08:45:15 PMCan anyone explain why Mana Points are so rare?

I think it's just the added number to keep track of. But that's not really a good reason because spell slots are already several different kinds of numbers to keep track of. Maybe it also introduces balance/variety issues - if you have 10 points and fireball costs 3, there's no reason you wouldn't just cast fireball 3 times in most situations, whereas different spell slot levels force you to use ones you wouldn't otherwise use.

I wrote a compilation alternate magic systems for OSE etc.:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397412/Alternate-Magic-OSR

But my favorite is something I wrote later:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/03/minimalist-roll-to-cast-take-2.html

I don't like DCC because of the weird dice.

If I recall, you need a D16 or a D30.

Also, I'm not a fan of race as class.  DCC does this. 

I also like Shadowdark over it because it's not a complex game. 

Quote from: bat on January 19, 2025, 12:02:27 AMWhy do you think Palladium 1e isn't OSR? Traveller is. Older RQ is, along with a host of other games. OSR is just older games, not just TSR.

Palladium doesn't use the classic six ability scores, their modifier numbers, armor class, or even have halflings.

It's divergent enough that it is a new game.

Dragonbane by Free League isn't stricly OSR, but feels OSR-adjacent to me. It runs on Willpower and uses casting skill rolls (somewhat like Shadowdark). My group really enjoyed playing it.

Beyond the Wall and the offshoot Through Sunken Lands both use non-Vancian Magic. There are three classifications of castable magic.

Cantrips are simple, low-powered effects that can be repeatably cast providing the caster succeeds at an ability check. Arcane style spells (light, mage hand, illusions, etc) are based on Intelligence while divine style spells (bless, animal ken, curses, etc) are based on Wisdom. The balancing factor is that every check inflicts a cumulative -1 penalty on each subsequent check. You can also enhance some of the cantrips by taking a larger penalty. The downside of failing a cantrip check is that either you've exhausted your capacity until you can get a night's rest OR the casting spins out of control. 'Spins out of control' is very loosely defined in the rules but a good rule of thumb is the cantrip produces the opposite of the intended effect. 

Spells are the familiar swath of D&D-like offerings. Knock, Flight, Cause Fear, Charm and so forth. Notably different from Cantrips in that spells can actually cause damage and are powered up by the caster's level. Where a cantrip inflicts a -2 penalty to a single target a spell inflicts a -2 penalty to as many targets as the caster level and so forth. Durations and effects are generally caster level dependant.
Spells can be cast a total of as many times per day as the caster's level. Spells themselves do not have a level like standard D&D nor do they need to be memorized. They're in your repretoire, use them until you run out of daily castings.

Rituals require time, usually a specific component, and have a caster level requirement. These are the big, (semi-) permanent, or game changing effects... mostly. Some of them are just Spell-level effects that the authors felt needed to be restricted a bit more for the sake of genre preservation. I can't say I agree with all of the choices but it's trivial to make Spells into Rituals or the reverse if something isn't to your taste.

I've been running TSL for ~6 months and the magic system has been working fine for me. I say that with the caveat that my campaign is fairly low magic (only two PC spell casters so far) and I don't adhere to RAW for NPCs (they can do whatever I want them to within the framework of their own restrictions and limitations) which isn't to say I don't use the RAW magic system for them but I use whatever is expedient.

There's also Iron & Sorcery which looks too simple at a glance but has plenty of depth for a typical OSR exploration game.

Wonder & Wickedness is a bolt-on system that can replace Vancian for something like B/X or any of the adjacent clones. It provides a list of levelless spells divided by school and an adjacent system for blast effects, semi-permanent enchantments, and duelling and counterspelling. There is also a companion piece called Marvels & Malisons that adds more schools and some variations of the spell economy.