What OSR sources are best for a Sci Fi game with lots of machine guns and high explosives? Need rules for bursts, grenades, RPGs please. Also, options for combat stances or something similar would be cool.
Quote from: Robyo;956314What OSR sources are best for a Sci Fi game with lots of machine guns and high explosives? Need rules for bursts, grenades, RPGs please. Also, options for combat stances or something similar would be cool.
I like DwD Studios' White Lies, based on White Box: select fire weapons, explosives, rocket launchers, grenade launchers and more.
Skyscrapers and Sorcery is an alternative too.
I forgot to add my criteria: I feel White Lies has an acceptable level of crunch, similar to that of non-modern OSR White Box games. It gives the feel of modern weapons without losing the feel of White Box type OSR games.
Check out the free version of Stars Without Number.
Quote from: Tod13;956316I like DwD Studios' White Lies, based on White Box: select fire weapons, explosives, rocket launchers, grenade launchers and more.
What does White Lies do regarding modern weapon damage vs escalating HP?
I know its the OSR version of Top Secret and its gotten good reviews. Have you played it?
I will check out White Lies. I like the secret agent aspect.
My game is more of a military campaign. Can anyone tell me about Operation Whitebox?
I wish I could remember offhand, but there's an old Dragon Magazine where it stats out WWII German Forces for AD&D because of a weird crossover. It had information on machine guns and some artillery I believe. Maybe someone else will remember which issue.
The only good firearms rules I've ever seen for D&D style games was a Dragon article from the late 70s or early 80's that presented the AC-based to-hit modifiers (a'la 1E) for various black powder guns. The concept of armor making you harder to hit is actually totally fine if you are into realism/versimilitude. But then you need to have different kinds of weapons have different AC-specific to-hit modifiers. Otherwise all weapons are simply 'damage' things', and there honestly isn't any point to having more than one kind of weapon in the game. That's fine if that is how you want to play, but if you enjoy variations among different types of weapons, you really should have some sort of AC specific modifers. Guns are an extreme case, and their value can't be understood unless you have, and use, weapon vs. AC modifiers.
Now if I could just find that pesky table, which I lost track of years ago...
Quote from: Spinachcat;956328What does White Lies do regarding modern weapon damage vs escalating HP?
I know its the OSR version of Top Secret and its gotten good reviews. Have you played it?
Umm. Can you explain what is meant by the question "modern weapon damage vs escalating HP"? Sorry. I'll check the rules when I get home.
I haven't played it. The group I run uses a ruleset I'm writing/playtesting. We have an ongoing weekly fantasy game and just started a once a month sci-fi game set in the Traveller universe using the Classic Traveller modules (with mecha added).
Quote from: Tod13;956419Umm. Can you explain what is meant by the question "modern weapon damage vs escalating HP"? Sorry. I'll check the rules when I get home.
I'm assuming it's the reason I almost didn't bother to look at this thread: D&D-based RPGs tend to give more and more HP to higher-level human characters, while damage is one or two dice per hit, meaning either that needs to change or you'll have guns that can't take anyone down without shooting someone many times because HP will be many times the amount of damage do-able by one shot, which doesn't feel very gun-combat-y.
Quote from: Skarg;956437I'm assuming it's the reason I almost didn't bother to look at this thread: D&D-based RPGs tend to give more and more HP to higher-level human characters, while damage is one or two dice per hit, meaning either that needs to change or you'll have guns that can't take anyone down without shooting someone many times because HP will be many times the amount of damage do-able by one shot, which doesn't feel very gun-combat-y.
Ah. Thanks! The damage for swords is just as wrong, so I don't worry too much about it. Read some combat or hunting stories and you'll see targets (human and otherwise) taken down with single shots of minimal caliber and targets that soaked up dozens of large-caliber rounds before running off never to be seen again and no sign of them ever dying, or even being seen again for years. Same thing with people being gored by cape buffalo and whatnot. Some are dead right there, others live decades with a hole clear through them.
Guns in White Lies do 1d6 (some with up to +3) and bursts (select fire) do double damage. Sniper rifle is 2d6. Grenades are 3d6 and rocket launchers are 4d6. Cannon are 4d6, machine guns (heavy weapons, like on a truck or turret) 3d6, with other heavy weapons going up to 10d6.
Sure, PC's hit points escalate, that's why there's massive damage rules. A PC takes their CON value in amount of damage in a single blow (or whatever the agreed upon system is), let them make a saving throw or die outright. Problem solved.
Our best rule is to keep all firearms on safety, and pointed away from the DM.
Quote from: cranebump;956515Our best rule is to keep all firearms on safety, and pointed away from the DM.
LOL As my group's DM, I'll pass this along. :D
Quote from: Robyo;956501Sure, PC's hit points escalate, that's why there's massive damage rules. A PC takes their CON value in amount of damage in a single blow (or whatever the agreed upon system is), let them make a saving throw or die outright. Problem solved.
Does White Lies have this rule?
I've seen that massive damage concept before and it looks like a fair trade off. Especially as PC's save vs. death does increase per levels and certain classes could get bonuses.
Quote from: Spinachcat;956520Does White Lies have this rule?
I've seen that massive damage concept before and it looks like a fair trade off. Especially as PC's save vs. death does increase per levels and certain classes could get bonuses.
It is not specifically there. The author was using White Box/White Star as the inspiration, and neither of those use it either (that I recall). (Bill wrote this after being inspired after White Star came out. DwDStudios has a espionage/spy game based on their d00lite system so...)
The described rule does seem a good fit if desired.
Quote from: Spinachcat;956328What does White Lies do regarding modern weapon damage vs escalating HP?
Is this a necessity for D&D-style games*? Because normal weapons in D&D don't escalate their damage, they just get replaced with magic items. It's actually easier to do with firearms and related modern weaponry because it
does escalate in damage - go from pistols through full-bore rifles to machineguns, cannon, mortars, rockets, missiles, etc. Let's see that red dragon shake off a couple of rounds from a Carl Gustaf. ;)
* Which, incidentally I don't think are the be-all and end-all of the OSR, but I know many people think so, so let's not get into that. If you want to expand the selection, my favourite rules are my
Striker! Tables for BRP (https://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/61-brp-striker-sidearms/).
If it doesn't seem like a problem, then it might not be, for you. I just prefer to have injuries be serious and not level-based, especially in games with guns and little/no armor. Yes sometimes people shrug off bullets for a while, but they can't count on it, so I want it to be about hit location and/or luck. And I want the gameplay about what you do to minimize the chance of being hit, rather than having not much you can do to avoid it almost always being an exchange of wounds. I don't want the main way to win to be to be able to get wounded more than one's opponents. I want it to mainly be about what you can do to avoid getting shot.
Quote from: cranebump;956515Our best rule is to keep all firearms on safety, and pointed away from the DM.
Heh, now that's a Texan. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;956663Heh, now that's a Texan. :D
Ha! No shit, man.
Given the author's later anti-OSR hissy-fit, I have mixed feelings about suggesting it, but the rules in Hulks & Horrors were pretty good.
As for very early renaissance firearms, my own Dark Albion has rules for that, which are also going to be included and very slightly expanded upon in my upcoming Lion & Dragon: Medieval Authentic OSR Roleplaying book.
We've have been using gear from Hulks & Horrors, actually. It fits the bill nicely. Using some of the monsters too. But the actual combat rules and options are fairly light. There's no rules about laying down a suppressing fire, for example.
I do have Dark Albion and like it quite a bit.
Hmm, yeah, not sure what I'd do for suppressing fire.
A rule I've been toying with has been to give characters a fixed amount of Hit Points equal to 1/2 CON, and then Dodge Points on top of that.
Fighters get 1d3 Dodge Points per level, Clerics get 1d2 Dodge Points per level, and Thieves and Magic-Users get 1d3-1 Dodge Points per Level.
If you get hit, if you spend 1 Dodge Point, you avoid the attack. For each Dodge Point spent, you must fall prone, duck behind cover, or move 5'.
A burst from an automatic weapon costs 1d3 Dodge Points to avoid.
An area-of-effect attack requires 1 Dodge Point per 5' radius to avoid.
Moving through the beaten zone of a suppressive fire attack costs 1 Dodge Point per 5'.
I think this sort of a system might successfully combine attrition-style D&D combat (where high-level heroes can last a long time due to reams of hp) with something that feels plausible in a world of guns. It's Batman dodging gun fire without ever getting hit.
Quote from: RPGPundit;959073Hmm, yeah, not sure what I'd do for suppressing fire.
You can either roll play it or use rules like:
Requirements: full-auto (not just burst) belt-fed weapon, requires one full belt per minute of suppression (or a flame thrower)
Weapons Skill Roll: to successfully keep an area suppressed
Saving Throw: to avoid damage if moving into/through suppressed area, make saving throw each round (or turn, whichever is shorter in your system) in the suppressed area
Quote from: Tod13;959120You can either roll play it or use rules like:
Requirements: full-auto (not just burst) belt-fed weapon, requires one full belt per minute of suppression (or a flame thrower)
Weapons Skill Roll: to successfully keep an area suppressed
Saving Throw: to avoid damage if moving into/through suppressed area, make saving throw each round (or turn, whichever is shorter in your system) in the suppressed area
Good idea. But I don't agree with the belt fed requirement. It can be done with a box magazine fed weapon. Not to mention for example the M-60 fires at a rate of 500-650 rounds per minute. Normal cloth issue ammo belt hold 100 rounds. So a full belt continuously fired only lasts approximately 12-15 seconds. pont being ammo consumptio would be higher than that. SHowing suppression can be achieved with less ammunition expended. Course these thoughts could be more realist than you are looking for. Or hell maybe I'm over thinking it.
Quote from: Ronin;959270Good idea. But I don't agree with the belt fed requirement. It can be done with a box magazine fed weapon. Not to mention for example the M-60 fires at a rate of 500-650 rounds per minute. Normal cloth issue ammo belt hold 100 rounds. So a full belt continuously fired only lasts approximately 12-15 seconds. pont being ammo consumptio would be higher than that. SHowing suppression can be achieved with less ammunition expended. Course these thoughts could be more realist than you are looking for. Or hell maybe I'm over thinking it.
Good points but I wasn't going for that level of realism. Want rules for walking Maremont fire into someone with tracers at 500 yards? :D
I pretty much took my experience with select fire stuff and said "how would I gamify this while making it somewhat realistic?" and trying to avoid firearms in general becoming area effect weapons. Saying you needed a belt fed seemed like a reasonable balance. ;)
If you wanted more realism, you could allow magazine weapons to do suppression fire but allow an easier saving throw, even with 3-5 round bursts, that magazine empties fast. And something like a FAL with a 20 round mag is empty before you know it.
My copy of WW II: Operation Whitebox arrived yesterday and I am quite pleased. It contains rules for bursts and suppressive fire, and you can do it even with a submachine gun.
A great resource for adding modern day stuff, using OSR sensibilities. There's a concise mass combat section. You don't need to track ammo, you just start making a saving throw after three or more firefights.
I prefer to have more than just d20's and d6's at my table, but other than that, it seems fairly solid.
Quote from: Robyo;959357My copy of WW II: Operation Whitebox arrived yesterday and I am quite pleased. It contains rules for bursts and suppressive fire, and you can do it even with a submachine gun.
A great resource for adding modern day stuff, using OSR sensibilities. There's a concise mass combat section. You don't need to track ammo, you just start making a saving throw after three or more firefights.
I've been sorely tempted to buy this. I love to know any more thoughts you have about this. (Perhaps in its own thread as to not derail to much)
Quote from: Robyo;959357I prefer to have more than just d20's and d6's at my table, but other than that, it seems fairly solid.
I agree with this statement. Its really the only thing I'm not real keen on about White Box
Quote from: Robyo;959357I prefer to have more than just d20's and d6's at my table, but other than that, it seems fairly solid.
I'm that crazy nut who prefers a game that just uses the good old six-sider, which may be part of why I stick with Classic Traveller and The Fantasy Trip. I'll tolerate a pair of ten-siders for d100 Chaosium games...but I try to avoid games that need a d4, d8, d10, d12, and d20. It's a weird mental block, I guess. I like using the same dice for everything.
Quote from: Dumarest;959485I'm that crazy nut who prefers a game that just uses the good old six-sider, which may be part of why I stick with Classic Traveller and The Fantasy Trip. I'll tolerate a pair of ten-siders for d100 Chaosium games...but I try to avoid games that need a d4, d8, d10, d12, and d20. It's a weird mental block, I guess. I like using the same dice for everything.
I guess we won't tap you for playing DCC then! It uses the above as well as d7, d14, d16, d24... Seriously though, there's nothing wrong with strictly d6 or d100 games. I cut my teeth on Star Frontiers and Traveller.
My group seems to like the increasing die size to simulate increasing bullet size. So, a .38 slug might do 1d6, but a .44 magnum might do 1d8, or even 1d10.
Quote from: Ronin;959477I've been sorely tempted to buy this. I love to know any more thoughts you have about this. (Perhaps in its own thread as to not derail to much)
I agree with this statement. Its really the only thing I'm not real keen on about White Box
Good idea! I'll post a mini-review very soon. It's an impressive little book, certainly.
Pretty sure Palladium had some rules on suppressive fire in some of their books. If I was needing to figure out some rules I'd probably see how I could rip those off for modification to an OSR game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;960287Pretty sure Palladium had some rules on suppressive fire in some of their books. If I was needing to figure out some rules I'd probably see how I could rip those off for modification to an OSR game.
Check Ninjas and Super Spies; I'm pretty sure they cover that under "Modern Weapon Combat" on pages 131-133.
Quote from: Dumarest;960306Check Ninjas and Super Spies; I'm pretty sure they cover that under "Modern Weapon Combat" on pages 131-133.
Good call!