Quote from: Domina on November 29, 2023, 11:18:11 PM
If defenses actually kept pace with magic, and if everyone had equal access to those defenses, this wouldn't be a problem.

Charm Person is only broken because some classes simply don't have the option of heavily investing in Willpower without gimping themselves. Because class based systems are shit.

  That's not a problem with class-based systems--that's a problem with 3E deciding to make the saves 'rational', stat-focused, and progressing at varying rates, which combined to produce dramatic gaps. That, combined with attackers' abilities to boost save DCs (especially after the mental buff spells were introduced), and the fact that a lot of the spells were copy-pasted from 1E/2E with minimal changes to the new underlying mechanics, seems to be the source of the problem.

Quote from: Zalman on November 30, 2023, 07:05:01 AM

Quote from: Domina on November 29, 2023, 11:18:11 PM
Charm Person is only broken because some classes simply don't have the option of heavily investing in Willpower without gimping themselves. Because class based systems are shit.

Huh, so your solution would seek to make every character equally vulnerable or resistant to everything I guess? You and I have a very different definition of "shit".

For certain things in a game the amount of difference in those things should be more constrained than other things.

It's one thing for a mage to fail a save 20% of the time and a fighter to fail 40% of the time. It's another if the mage only fails 10% of the time while the fighter fails 80-90% of the time.

It's why one of the most common fixes I see in 5e is to just grant everyone proficiency in all the saves... that constrains the difference to about 7 points between a dump stat modifer and a maxed one instead of the 13 point difference that can result otherwise.

Particularly since the number needed to save keeps going up. A -1 vs. a DC12 save while the proficient guy has a +2-5 is one thing. Still having a -1 when the DC is 18 and the proficient guy now has a +11 is another.

This is definitely an area where I think old school D&D did better than later editions. It was no accident fighters had the best saves (and while the others tended to not be as overall strong they still got better relative to the opposition as they leveled up).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 30, 2023, 08:55:01 AM

Quote from: Domina on November 29, 2023, 11:18:11 PM
If defenses actually kept pace with magic, and if everyone had equal access to those defenses, this wouldn't be a problem.

Charm Person is only broken because some classes simply don't have the option of heavily investing in Willpower without gimping themselves. Because class based systems are shit.

  That's not a problem with class-based systems--that's a problem with 3E deciding to make the saves 'rational', stat-focused, and progressing at varying rates, which combined to produce dramatic gaps. That, combined with attackers' abilities to boost save DCs (especially after the mental buff spells were introduced), and the fact that a lot of the spells were copy-pasted from 1E/2E with minimal changes to the new underlying mechanics, seems to be the source of the problem.

Yep, more specifically it is the WotC design team falling for exactly the trap that "keeping pace" does--false symmetry.  It goes something like this:  Wouldn't it be cool and satisfying if as a character gets more powerful, their attacks get harder to resist?  Sounds entirely plausible until you actually do the work of trying it in the design.  It is so very easy to screw that up, where attack/defense are on the same track.  You simultaneously get the feeling of numbers escalating out of control and the characters stuck on a treadmill--and that's if you don't screw it up too much.  (See Elder Scrolls Oblivion on launch for another example of the same problem.) 

There's all kinds of ways to address that.  In a video game, you can even fine tune it, if serious about it and willing to watch it like a hawk.  In a TTRPG, a much better way to handle it is to ... not escalate attacks getting harder to resist in the first pace--or at least put some hard limits on the escalation and don't time them to something automatic with other leveling or power gains.

In our homebrew system, we use classes.  But everyone gets the same level progression (+1/2) plus their relevant stat for saves.  Ie, if you're 6th level your base bonus is +3 and you add your relevant stat (+1 to +6 for most people).  It definitely means that you have characters who are more likely to fail a particular save, but there is less extreme difference.  Likewise, there's no reason to pick up a multi-class to gain a new 'save proficiency' or 'good save'.

The TN also scales at +1/2 per level of the caster, so against equal level opponents you're effectively making a save against their relevant stat (ie, INT +6) versus your relevant Defense (ie, Wil +2).  If the opposition is lower level, your level based save bonus makes a real difference. 

For spellcasting, we use a small number of spells known and a relatively small number of spell points.  You can cast your spells known in any combination until you run out of spell points.  Spells scale with caster level (ie, a 1st level attack spell may do 1d10+1d10 per CL), so in some sense using your 1st level spells is efficient.  A 2nd level spell might do about the same damage but it allows for a ranged attack, rather than a touch, or it might have a rider (like stunned) on a failed save.  Wizards therefore might use the 1st level spell if the opponent has gotten close, but they may use a 2nd level spell if they have range even though it is more expensive. 

We keep the number of spell points relatively small, so in most fights the wizard has to 'take a breather' to get a few more spell points, which helps prevent always spamming the same spells and/or makes wizards feel a little more dynamic than they are in most D&D systems.   

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 30, 2023, 09:24:21 AM
There's all kinds of ways to address that.  In a video game, you can even fine tune it, if serious about it and willing to watch it like a hawk.  In a TTRPG, a much better way to handle it is to ... not escalate attacks getting harder to resist in the first pace--or at least put some hard limits on the escalation and don't time them to something automatic with other leveling or power gains.

Yep, in fact I grew weary of the separation between "attack" and "defend" within an abstract combat round. As if a stronger fighter who wields their weapon well won't be harder to hit. Personally, I think this separation is one of the things game design is wed to mostly out of habit.

No, retards. I didn't say have everything. Fighters should be able to choose to have strong willpower and be good at fighting.

QuoteNo, retards. I didn't say have everything. Fighters should be able to choose to have strong willpower and be good at fighting.

Why so? Even Superman is weak against mind magic

Quote from: Domina on November 30, 2023, 09:58:06 AM
No, retards. I didn't say have everything. Fighters should be able to choose to have strong willpower and be good at fighting.

Calling anyone who does not agree with your ideas retards does not present you or your ideas in a very mature light.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 30, 2023, 12:25:39 PM

QuoteNo, retards. I didn't say have everything. Fighters should be able to choose to have strong willpower and be good at fighting.

Why so? Even Superman is weak against mind magic

Why not?

The setting should dictate the propensity of magic and its proliferation. The System should provide whatever mechanics and spells that would "fit" in the system. The Game in the Setting, should be a curated form of those System mechanics (spells).

So in your Fantasy Setting - how powerful are Magic-users supposed to be? How common is magic. In my games, even my D&D Settings like the Realms where everyone assumes magic is everywhere, I curtail it way back. It's also why I stick to the conventions of the Gray Box 1e edition in terms of fluff.

Does this mean all the high-powered magic beyond 4th level spells doesn't exist? Nope. But it does mean 1) Most people will rarely even ever meet a Mage. 2) Where Mages proliferate, like Halruaa, magic is mighty and plentiful and the world they live in represents that.

PC's walk a line between those poles. I care about their backgrounds, who taught them magic, pedigrees, because it becomes fodder for the Fraternities/Sororities of magicians that exist outside of the normal world. I want my players and their PC's to feel part of these secretive societies. I never have normal NPC's simply be *amazed* at magic. They *FEAR IT* (generally) and treat spellcasters accordingly - unless there is reason not to.

Ironically, Vancian Magic systems work particularly well in this environment, (Magic is Rare but Powerful) - where I throttle spell-acquisition behind roleplaying. You have to go and interact with other spellcasters (your master, your Guild, other casters) to trade spells theories etc. I also make PC's decide ahead of time what spells they're researching before they level and feed them content so that when they do level, they get their eureka moment, which feels good, and justifies even such realizations in the middle of an adventure. If they don't do this - they have to wait.

I apply these constraints in my non-Vancian games too, which obviously is slightly tweaked.

Again - it's how you want it represented. If you just say it's all on the table free to grab, you're asking for whatever headaches you own doing so. I've never outlawed a single spell in D&D. Never have, never will. But I'll make the acquisition of it commensurate to it's actual power and impact on the world around it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 30, 2023, 12:38:39 PM

Quote from: Domina on November 30, 2023, 09:58:06 AM
No, retards. I didn't say have everything. Fighters should be able to choose to have strong willpower and be good at fighting.

Calling anyone who does not agree with your ideas retards does not present you or your ideas in a very mature light.

I have had several unpleasant interactions with Domina and after thinking it over I just added her to my ignore list. I know I can be prickly at times, but I have not seen any civil interactions from her.

For those of you who, like me, did not know how to block someone here are the instructions:

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  Mongoose Conan had a pretty good system, from memory it was quite similar to DCC in many ways though spells tended to be a bit more subtle.  I thought WHFRPG 2e handled magic pretty well (though this is from reading...there could all kinds of problems in play I am not anticipating).  DCC I enjoy a good bit.  My favorites though are GURPS and Savage Worlds.  I think they are similar enough to one another and to games like Eden Studios Armageddon/Witchcraft as well as Palladium's rifts. 

   For me GURPS is best because it represents a well rounded caster in that if he knows the spell and has energy he can use it as much as his energy allows, and if he has high skill he can use lower powered versions of spells at will (provided his skill checks out).  The skill roll I think is dependent on setting, if you want some more risk I think having a consequences to failure line up closer to DCC is implementable to make that work easily.  I think if you want more reliable magic you can simply process them as powers or use several of the examples from thaumatology to work your magic.   Even the base system from the base book is good enough to represent what I like to see in my magic though.   

Quote from: squirewaldo on December 01, 2023, 11:36:41 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 30, 2023, 12:38:39 PM

Quote from: Domina on November 30, 2023, 09:58:06 AM
No, retards. I didn't say have everything. Fighters should be able to choose to have strong willpower and be good at fighting.

Calling anyone who does not agree with your ideas retards does not present you or your ideas in a very mature light.

I have had several unpleasant interactions with Domina and after thinking it over I just added her to my ignore list. I know I can be prickly at times, but I have not seen any civil interactions from her.

For those of you who, like me, did not know how to block someone here are the instructions:

How to block someone here:

1. Click "Profile" from the menu at the top.

2. Hover over "Modify Profile" from the sub-menu lower on the page.

3. Click "Buddies/Ignore List"

4. Click "Edit Ignore List"

5. Enter username and click "Add"

Assuming you know what someone means instead of actually reading their post is a hell of a lot less civil than a mean word. Retard.

I'm partial to the D6 systems magic system (which is also really sort of the tech development system from D6 space reskinned I will note, or vice versa, for the tony stark types) and because i have to graft osric atop D6 to please my herd of cats my issue becomes how to utilize the vancian spell memorization charts atop that. Spell memorization (and really any "hanging" magic such as a spell on a scroll or a potion effect) as presented in D&D is, under D6 system by default, defined as a ward, and so use of said spell memorization charts is merely an expansion on the limits of how many wards of what power level or type a character can maintain at any given time....i otherwise limit the number to the number of whole dice a pc has in their relevant extranormal attribute.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 28, 2023, 03:13:31 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 18, 2023, 02:10:39 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 18, 2023, 10:43:34 AM
What replacement system is your favorite?

For D&D, a compromise. I understand some of the newer editions have this already as a feature of specific spellcasters, but even back in the day we ran it like this-
You don't have to memorize specific spells. You just have to know them, and you can cast any known spell from the appropriate spell slot.
A caster can break up a spell slot. IE a 3rd level spell slot can be broken into three 1st level spells, or a 2nd and a 1st.
That generally worked for us.

You have to be careful in making spell slots tradeable like that because of spells that scale with level. A mid to high level magic user can really do some damage trading a level 4 spell slot for 4 1st level because of how magic missile scales.

Sure. But then, a fireball has an advantage in being an area of effect spell. And the damage runs something like this-
9th level Fireball: 9D6 damage with an average of 27. / Caps at 10D6 at level 10.
9th level Magic Missile: 5D4+5 damage with an average of 15. / Caps at 5D4+5 at level 9.
The advantage MM has, IMO, is it being more precise and has no "friendly fire" risk. Damage isn't a big issue.