Not everyone likes Vancian magic.  Slots and memorization in the morning, and forgetting them from your mind afterwards is a bit weird.

The two I'm used to are both from Palladium. 

1st edition Palladium games used spells per day.  A wizard could cast any spell they knew, or the same spell over and over.  I'll point out I did say, "any spell the wizard knows."   You don't get all spells.  You get some at character creation, and a couple when leveling up, or you can buy them at a magic shop, or get lucky and convert a single use scroll.  After that, it's just a number of spells each day. 

2nd edition swapped out spells per day with magic power points, and each spell now has a cost.  The other restrictions are all the same.

Another idea came from miss-reading Tiny D6 rules on magic.  You could be something called a Scroll Reader.  I thought it meant your flavor of wizard can re-use scrolls that normally are one-use consumables.  They collect scrolls into a book, and it's once per day for each.  If you want lightning bolt three times a day, you have to own three lightning bolt scrolls. 

In reality Tiny D6 simply restricts scrolls to that magician character, only they can read the scrolls, but the scrolls still disappear like traditional one-use consumables.  This seems a bit restrictive, but that's what they wrote.

I sort of like my version better. 

What replacement system is your favorite?

Runequest and Artesia I think 🤔

In Runequest most spells that you have learned will always work when you cast, as long as you have enough power points and can overcome the resistance from someone you're trying to affect. Most spells are not super powerful though (blade sharp is a typical one) but it could evolve into pretty hefty magic as you learn more. There are two "schools" : Spirit Magic (Basic Magic) and Rune Magic (Divine Magic).

In Artesia, spells are very "realistic" in that they resemble incantations and curses from real folklore.

What I use in my fantasy setting is a combination of keeping instantaneous spells weak and making more interesting and powerful spells take time and preparation.  Also, many forms of magic in my setting require a lot of prep, area, and sometimes even structures.  A wizard's tower in my setting isn't just a house for a wizard but a magic tool for performing certain spells.

In short, I have four tiers of magic.  The first tier is magic that can be used in a snap and usually not very powerful.  A common spell that PCs can have is Spark and it literally just creates a momentary spark.  Often this is combined with kerosene or coal dust for actual attacks.  Some more advanced tier one spells can directly do damage akin to a sword or an arrow.  Typically, a PC can always use a tier one spell without limit.  Also, i keep these spells weak enough that the player isn't just spamming magic missile in combat or prestidigitating their way out of minor complications.  It's more like having a really good survival kit rather than having a pocket full of guns.

Tier two magic is use to put an enchantment on something.  This will take between a few minutes to several days depending on the strength and the longevity of the particular spell.  This includes spells that would be considered curses like giving bad luck or causing illness.  The enchanting of items to use them as magical tools such as wands is done at this level and the quality of the tool is dependent on the quality of the spell used as well as the craftsmanship of the object.  This tier also introduces augery and seeing spells.  Most tier two seeing spells are good for simple decisions or getting a binary answer to a single question.

Tier three magic is spells that are best described a layering of multiple tier two spells.  They require the use of a location, even if temporarily, so that the spell caster can put down sigils and lay out enchanted tools.  Often these spells are related to communication and information gathering and can be very specific and gather a lot of information.  This is where magical barriers can be made, magic traps are set, and transportation magic is created.  A spell caster can also use tier three spells to make a place that amplifies tier one spells to much greater power levels so that they can do more amazing things.  Often these spells take weeks or months to cast and the most advance ones can take well over a year.  Some will take multiple spell casters working together to attempt.

Tier four spells are the construction of a permanent magical tool.  This can be a hand held tool but usually it's something like a wizard's tower that gives the wielder considerable foresight, a crucible that endows power to a metal for forging magical weapons, or a permanent strong magical barrier that seals away an immortal monster.

I've long been a proponent of power/magic/mana points, because Vancian magic makes no sense, BUT...

Ever since the thread I started about useful shorthand being useful I've come to an epyphany:

What if the spell caster doesn't "forget the spell"? What if what appears to be magic slots is really shorthand for the magical power the spellcaster has?

This neccesitates two fundamental changes to the magic system:

Whatever spells the spellcaster knows he can cast as many times as the spells per day table allows, it's not that he needs to study the spell, it's that he spends magical power.

So a Lvl 1 spell caster has 2 1st level spells, this means he has power enough to cast 2 1st level spells he has learned (written in his book) or 1 2nd level spell that he knows.

That's the second change, a spell caster can trade 2 spells of a lower level for 1 spell of a higher level. So two 1st level for one 2nd level or two 2nd level for one 3rd level or 4 1st level for one 3rd level.

Now add the 1st tier spells from BadApple's system as zero level or "cantrips" and you've got something that works almost exactly like vancian but with some key differences, that it assumes there's a power cost without the need to keep track of metacurrency, you instead keep track of the "slots".

Quote from: BadApple on November 18, 2023, 12:28:14 PM
What I use in my fantasy setting is a combination of keeping instantaneous spells weak and making more interesting and powerful spells take time and preparation.  Also, many forms of magic in my setting require a lot of prep, area, and sometimes even structures.  A wizard's tower in my setting isn't just a house for a wizard but a magic tool for performing certain spells.

In short, I have four tiers of magic.  The first tier is magic that can be used in a snap and usually not very powerful.  A common spell that PCs can have is Spark and it literally just creates a momentary spark.  Often this is combined with kerosene or coal dust for actual attacks.  Some more advanced tier one spells can directly do damage akin to a sword or an arrow.  Typically, a PC can always use a tier one spell without limit.  Also, i keep these spells weak enough that the player isn't just spamming magic missile in combat or prestidigitating their way out of minor complications.  It's more like having a really good survival kit rather than having a pocket full of guns.

Tier two magic is use to put an enchantment on something.  This will take between a few minutes to several days depending on the strength and the longevity of the particular spell.  This includes spells that would be considered curses like giving bad luck or causing illness.  The enchanting of items to use them as magical tools such as wands is done at this level and the quality of the tool is dependent on the quality of the spell used as well as the craftsmanship of the object.  This tier also introduces augery and seeing spells.  Most tier two seeing spells are good for simple decisions or getting a binary answer to a single question.

Tier three magic is spells that are best described a layering of multiple tier two spells.  They require the use of a location, even if temporarily, so that the spell caster can put down sigils and lay out enchanted tools.  Often these spells are related to communication and information gathering and can be very specific and gather a lot of information.  This is where magical barriers can be made, magic traps are set, and transportation magic is created.  A spell caster can also use tier three spells to make a place that amplifies tier one spells to much greater power levels so that they can do more amazing things.  Often these spells take weeks or months to cast and the most advance ones can take well over a year.  Some will take multiple spell casters working together to attempt.

Tier four spells are the construction of a permanent magical tool.  This can be a hand held tool but usually it's something like a wizard's tower that gives the wielder considerable foresight, a crucible that endows power to a metal for forging magical weapons, or a permanent strong magical barrier that seals away an immortal monster.

I like it very much, I would LOOOOOOOOVE to read more about it.

The Vancian system largely exists to prevent wizards from being able to spam fireballs every round (which 5th edition ignored). So any system that replaces it has to find a way to perform the same task. Magic Points can do it, but I've found that they sometimes fumble in the execution. One of the issues I had with Dragon Warriors was that my sorcerer characters consistently outperformed the martials in combat, and part of that was the large magic pools and being able to dump all their points into their most powerful spells at will.

I kind of like systems that treat spells as equip-able items. Index Card RPG does it that way, and then balances it by having limited equip slots (and magic generally being kind of underpowered). Warlock! has a similar system, and then balances it out by the wizard character not only having to spend Stamina (which is essentially health), but also having to have the scroll in-hand and then succeed on a casting check. In addition to being a simple way of limiting spell-spam, the spells-as-items system also allows the DM to give out spells as loot, and more kinds of interesting loot is always a plus. 

Moving out of the realm of tabletop games, I like the system used in the first two Dark Souls games, where you can "attune" a limited number of spells, and then each spell gives you a set number of casts per attunement slot. I wouldn't mind seeing that adapted to a tabletop game. Shadow of the Demon Lord's system, where based on your Power stat, you just get a set number of casts of each spell based on the spell's level, produces a somewhat similar result.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 18, 2023, 10:43:34 AM
What replacement system is your favorite?

For D&D, a compromise. I understand some of the newer editions have this already as a feature of specific spellcasters, but even back in the day we ran it like this-
You don't have to memorize specific spells. You just have to know them, and you can cast any known spell from the appropriate spell slot.
A caster can break up a spell slot. IE a 3rd level spell slot can be broken into three 1st level spells, or a 2nd and a 1st.
That generally worked for us.

TBH I like Vancian magic but I do not consider it universal one.
But I kinda think it's more original idea than mana/magic points which is terribly video-gamish.

Now if mana/prana was your lifeforce then I could go with system that link this organically - you can drain yourself while doing magic, or charge yourself by draining elemental source or another person.

Totally separate magical energy or generally treating magic as some separate source of weird energy is just... meh.

So you wanna separate system - do some ritualistic hermetism where all battle-magics must be prepared inside various artefacts you enchanted through long nights of fasting, nude gymnastics, meditating over Thai poetry and smoking shrooms.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 18, 2023, 12:58:20 PM
The Vancian system largely exists to prevent wizards from being able to spam fireballs every round (which 5th edition ignored). So any system that replaces it has to find a way to perform the same task. Magic Points can do it, but I've found that they sometimes fumble in the execution. One of the issues I had with Dragon Warriors was that my sorcerer characters consistently outperformed the martials in combat, and part of that was the large magic pools and being able to dump all their points into their most powerful spells at will.

I kind of like systems that treat spells as equip-able items. Index Card RPG does it that way, and then balances it by having limited equip slots (and magic generally being kind of underpowered). Warlock! has a similar system, and then balances it out by the wizard character not only having to spend Stamina (which is essentially health), but also having to have the scroll in-hand and then succeed on a casting check. In addition to being a simple way of limiting spell-spam, the spells-as-items system also allows the DM to give out spells as loot, and more kinds of interesting loot is always a plus. 

Moving out of the realm of tabletop games, I like the system used in the first two Dark Souls games, where you can "attune" a limited number of spells, and then each spell gives you a set number of casts per attunement slot. I wouldn't mind seeing that adapted to a tabletop game. Shadow of the Demon Lord's system, where based on your Power stat, you just get a set number of casts of each spell based on the spell's level, produces a somewhat similar result.

I have not seen much fireball spamming in 5E. There is quite a bit of this though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dz65h6H5gM

I nominate GLOG and it's magic dice system as being a very good replacement of D&Ds magic system.

what I enjoy about it is it grants the Vancian without being quite as encumbered with tracking things, generally you have a small amount of spells that can be memorized, there are no spell levels, its based on Magic die, so the spell is as powerful as you invest in it, the issue is the more gas you put in a spell the more likely it is go go wild and do something bad.

Magic dice are awesome as they die resource management and risk management at the hip, it makes Wizards feel very dangerous and fragile.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 18, 2023, 12:49:57 PM

Quote from: BadApple on November 18, 2023, 12:28:14 PM
What I use in my fantasy setting is a combination of keeping instantaneous spells weak and making more interesting and powerful spells take time and preparation.  Also, many forms of magic in my setting require a lot of prep, area, and sometimes even structures.  A wizard's tower in my setting isn't just a house for a wizard but a magic tool for performing certain spells.

In short, I have four tiers of magic.  The first tier is magic that can be used in a snap and usually not very powerful.  A common spell that PCs can have is Spark and it literally just creates a momentary spark.  Often this is combined with kerosene or coal dust for actual attacks.  Some more advanced tier one spells can directly do damage akin to a sword or an arrow.  Typically, a PC can always use a tier one spell without limit.  Also, i keep these spells weak enough that the player isn't just spamming magic missile in combat or prestidigitating their way out of minor complications.  It's more like having a really good survival kit rather than having a pocket full of guns.

Tier two magic is use to put an enchantment on something.  This will take between a few minutes to several days depending on the strength and the longevity of the particular spell.  This includes spells that would be considered curses like giving bad luck or causing illness.  The enchanting of items to use them as magical tools such as wands is done at this level and the quality of the tool is dependent on the quality of the spell used as well as the craftsmanship of the object.  This tier also introduces augery and seeing spells.  Most tier two seeing spells are good for simple decisions or getting a binary answer to a single question.

Tier three magic is spells that are best described a layering of multiple tier two spells.  They require the use of a location, even if temporarily, so that the spell caster can put down sigils and lay out enchanted tools.  Often these spells are related to communication and information gathering and can be very specific and gather a lot of information.  This is where magical barriers can be made, magic traps are set, and transportation magic is created.  A spell caster can also use tier three spells to make a place that amplifies tier one spells to much greater power levels so that they can do more amazing things.  Often these spells take weeks or months to cast and the most advance ones can take well over a year.  Some will take multiple spell casters working together to attempt.

Tier four spells are the construction of a permanent magical tool.  This can be a hand held tool but usually it's something like a wizard's tower that gives the wielder considerable foresight, a crucible that endows power to a metal for forging magical weapons, or a permanent strong magical barrier that seals away an immortal monster.

I like it very much, I would LOOOOOOOOVE to read more about it.

From a design standpoint, a setting standpoint, or a spell list?

Basically, it a way for me to sort spells into four boxes based on how much I think they should be used.  Most tier one spells are less powerful than 5e cantrips.  On the other end, you can have a Wish spell when you spend millions of gold and years constructing an elaborate atelier that will crumble from the sheer power flowing through it.  You also always have to pass a skill check.

In my setting, anyone can use magic but magic is difficult to learn.  I think of it like learning calculus.  There are no natural users of magic among humans so anyone using it studies it rather intently.  I also make it so most magic is about a more considered and refined act of ceremony rather than just being something a PC just throws out for effect.

As far as the actual spells list, most of it comes from D&D or OSR books.  Some of them are just my own creations.  Over all, If it looks like some cool magic, I adopt it.  That being said, most magic is about either finding something or hiding it so a lot of magic is playing cat and mouse with other magic users. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 18, 2023, 10:43:34 AM
Not everyone likes Vancian magic.  Slots and memorization in the morning, and forgetting them from your mind afterwards is a bit weird.

I have to start by completely shitting on your premise. It's relevant to my answer. There's tons of good about the so-called "Vancian" magic system that goes unappreciated. The slots make it a hell of a lot easier to manage as GM, just crossing a spell off my notes as the spell is cast, no stopping to calculate or deduct spell points. But it also makes it plainer for players to see their options on front of them.

That said, I think the best magic system is the one from Dangerous Journeys Mythus Magick. It's a magic point system, super versatile, and the sheer volume of content ensures you can do  whatever you want with it. Just one thing, though. Dangerous Journeys is on a "critical turn" scale during combat, which are 3-second rounds. And only Charms (Eyebites which most casters don't get) can be done in a single CT. Cantrips are 5 CT, Spells take a full Battle Turn (10 CTs), a Formula takes 5 Battle Turns, and Rituals take a full Action Turn (100 CT's) or more. Maybe you might get off a Cantrip. It sucks to be waiting around for that long in combat. But the longer activation time powers just aren't practical.

As I said, though, the system is very versatile. So there's a work around. There's a power that lets you activate the casting in advance to be delayed pending a trigger, that way you can fire of a power instantly as needed (and without having to make a skill check or subtracting spell points in the moment, having already paid the cost and made the skill check when initially setting up the trigger). You just have to prepare it in advance. If you think you're going to need it more than once, you prepare more than one instance of the spell with the trigger.

Again, this is my favorite magic system. But if I'm being honest, this amounts to extra steps just to end up getting the same rake in the face. But, hey, if extra steps are what you need to walk you through how to imagine magic working in a way that you don't hate, then so be it. I'd argue you could have just done that all along, and it's kind of weird to insist on imagining things in a way that you hate. I mean it's not like you really do forget the spell in AD&D. The magic user still has knowledge to understand the spell. That's how they're able to re-up it again. What AD&D calls "memorize" is the implantation of the magic in the mind for later use. That's a separate thing from knowledge of the spell.

Another system I really like are some "House Rules" presented in The Lost City of Gaxmoor module if I remember correctly. It's using D&D, so you have to memorize your spells in advance. However, you can use a spell you don't have memorized by sacrificing a higher level spell you do have memorized. And you can also sacrifice a memorized spell to cast another spell at a higher caster level. So it gives the benefits of spontaneous spell use and being able to pump up spells, just like you get with magic-point systems, but while retaining that initial benefits I cited of the Vancian magic system.

One of the more unique magic systems was from Pocket Fantasy.

In combat you have a short list of 6 combat spells available, and a wizard can cast 2 per fight.  Out of combat, you can cast 2 spells per game session of whatever you can think up and, and if the GM will allow it the GM will assign that a skill check number, and you roll to attempt it.

It had a few benefits. 

1.  Wizards are always wizards.  They can cast 2 spells from a short list of 6 magic spells in combat every fight, so they always useful.  They never do the whole, "Welp, I'm out of spells, so let me put on this chainmail, strap on this sword, and I'll fight as a gimpy fighter the rest of the adventure."  In other words, they never run out of magic, and they're magic is strong enough to matter.

2.  Word count space is at a premium in a rules lite game.  The whole, "You can cast whatever the GM will allow," thing means you have every spell there is, but it only took up a few lines in the rulebook.  If you want to cast, "Summon Stone Fortress" so we all have a nice place to sleep tonight, and the GM lets you do so if you can roll a 1D6, roll 3 or better (aka 67%), so be it.  But, in a fight you can't cast that (there are only 6 battle spells), so it won't be abused to suddenly have a fortress appear right in the middle of a fight.   Even then, between fights the GM may not allow it, or suddenly that Summon Stone Fortress spell will be a 1D6, get a 6 to cast.

I always thought that was a neat little magic system.

Vancian has a lot of good things about it from a game point of view.  However most of my favorite fantasy literature has magic systems where if you cast enough spells you get tired and eventually run out of gas.  This is best modeled by a mana system, so that's my preference

Use a syntactic magic system a la Ars Magica. Make players spend magic points and roll to cast every spell. Penalize excessively powerful spells like fireballs to discourage spamming.