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I've run Middle Earth campaigns using a number of game systems other than the licensed ones (MERP, Decipher, TOR, AiME). The best one, just based on the amount of fun everyone had at the table (the only metric I would say really counts!) was The Fantasy Trip.

We had a fairly long running (though episodic) campaign centered on a group of soldiers and rangers from Gondor who were scouting and generally stirring up trouble on the borders of Mordor, in the White Mountains and in the outer reaches of Moria. It was really a gas. Though, naturally enough for TFT, eventually the party died and we sort of moved on.

The system I think was actually best suited to the setting, and was definitely fun to play, was 1E AD&D. For whatever reason this one didn't get rolling with the same level of excitement as our TFT campaign, but it was fun, and felt like the scales of power accessible to players, NPC's and monsters was more 'right', and the natural support from the core game book was outstanding. Literally everything you need to play a fully fleshed out middle earth campaign is in the 1E core books. Just add a few maps from ICE's modules or something and away you go.

We also ran a brief GURPS campaign and it was fun but I never developed that strong of an opinion about it.

Failed experiments include Runequest and Pendragon. Both of them struck me as totally ideal for Middle Earth, in a white-room, philosophizing sort of way, and I wrote up a bunch of house rules to make the systems translate to the setting. But somehow when we sat down and started playing it just didn't go anywhere. The play felt slow and cramped, and there was so much about the setting that just isn't in these games.

Well I have only played MERP 1ed, TOR and D&D(AD&D starter set, so more like Basic) set in Middle-Earth.

I did have some badwrongfun playing D&D in ME. Run a short game for a friend solo when I had to make shit up on the spot (I was like 12 at the time, before the movies and had just read LotR). He started as a 20 Level Dwarf Fighter . He took the place of Bilbo and the game started with him already owning the one ring, a shitload of treasure, and in the first session Bagend was attacked by a red dragon who wanted that treasure. The last thing I remember was that the dwarf was flying from Rivendell on a griffin against Mordor. Looking back I wish I finished that game :D

To summarize:

MERP was crappy and not funnat all.

TOR was fun but it was not really the system that made it fun

Batshit-crazy-D&D-Middle-Earth was probably the best D&D game I had back then. But that is kind of a nostalgic thing. But I do think that TSR D&D can be used to run Middle-Earth with a few adjustments and just go with the flow. I want to do that again someday. Either toss out magic for players or restruct the spellcaster classes : Like making clerics into an Noldor-race-class (and dont call them clerics) with the druid spell list as the only playable spellcaster , with no weapon&armor restrictment. Whatever works for you.

Until AiME I never had any luck running Middle Earth with any other system. In hindsight it was because I didn't ditch overt spell casting. For AD&D the mundane monsters weren't tough enough. The closest I got was Harnmaster when the character got to deal with the elves of the Shaba Forest or the Dwarves of Azadmere.

But now I have run AiME, I could probably could use GURPs, OD&D (Fighters and thieves only), or Harnmaster. And get a similar feel.

We had some fun with Legends of Middle Earth (http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/legends-of-middle-earth) (the link is to 1KM1KT) by Jeffrey Schecter. We tried MERP but that didn't really do it and I didn't really fancy TOR. I've got AIME so intend to give that a go sometime because it looks like it might do the job.

(Warning - no ME play experience, feel free to ignore) Fascinating about 1e AD&D being closest fit! I guess it's a very The Hobbit game. Looking at AiME it feels rather like "You get to live in Middle Earth as the guys not in the books" whereas 1e AD&D is more like "Let's play The Hobbit and kill Goblins and Dragons and Trolls (ogres)!" :D

The AD&D Magic-User class spell list is sort-of off, it seems based on Gandalf & Saruman, ie Maiar, in Gandalf's case a Maiar with the Elven Fire Ring of Power. The Cleric spell list & powers are much much closer to what the Elves (& Aragorn) can actually do, like Turn Undead, healing etc. Maybe ban M-U, rename Cleric as Loremaster (or just assume it means 'person who can write') :D, and Elf only? :) Multiclassed High Elf Fighter-Cleric fits a lot of Tolkien's Elf characters very nicely indeed. Humans who want spells can either be Numenorean human 1e Rangers & Paladins like Aragorn (duel class?) :D, or corrupt "Sorcerers of Sauron", ie Clerics of Sauron such as the Witch King & the Mouth of Sauron. NPC only in most campaigns.

Back in the day I played some fairly decent Middle Earth style stuff using Tunnels & Trolls. T&T had much of the feel of Tolkein's world and far less crunchy than MERP.

Tunnels and Trolls is an interesting angle! I firmly believe that it's the players that make a game 'work' or 'not work' in a given setting, so I believe it could be awesome. I just never tried it.

The match of D&D with ME is actually very good, and I suspect could be good for pretty much any edition. This is why, after decades of nerd rage about how inappropriate it would be to sully middle earth with gonzo, appendix-D dungeons and dragons, as soon as someone put out a couple of nicely produced books of conversion notes (AiME) there isn't a peep of complaining to be heard anywhere.

AiME is quite a good game (as is 5E generally). I have nothing against either and would be happy to play in middle earth using those rules as written. The authors of AiME clearly intend that no one is casting spells other than a few powerful NPCs. I'm not down with that; I think it is obvious that the setting is popping at the seams with magical creatures, objects and effects that can all be modeled using D&D spells. But this is entirely at the discretion of your group: The spells are right there on the page in our PHB's, and we are free to use them. Basically, AiME turns the supernatural dial down to about 1 or 2 for PC's, but you can turn it up as high as you like when you play, using totally self-consistent and published rules, spells, items, etc. I would recommend turning it up to 4 or 5 (low to moderate level spell casters, without too many of the batshit crazy classes, races and effects).

That said, I think if I were in the driver's seat and my group were amenable, I'd prefer 1E AD&D. Mostly because I think 5E raised the ratio of HP to damage output too high. It's a little frustrating because this is not easy to change with house rules without introducing new core mechanics that clash with other things in the game. The issue, as I see it, is that D&D combat is perfectly fun and exciting despite being abstract, but it does not benefit from being drawn out unnecessarily. It is not uncommon in 5E for two combatants to face off where each has 20-30 HP and does an average of 5-7 points of damage per turn, and each has a 30-40 % chance to hit the other each turn. On average, it will take a dozen rounds for such a fight to come to some kind of conclusion. This is about the power level of a tough orc or wolf but well below that of a leader of either type. So, this is going to happen a lot. And everyone recovers a lot of HP every day. Add it all up, and you are signing up to make a couple hundred attack rolls per night when you sit down to play. It just seems too slow, and like too much time spent resolving the parts of combat that should be fast. AD&D is a factor of several faster than this, particularly at low levels, because a large fraction of the combatants have fewer than 10 HP, yet people still dish out 3-6 or more points of damage per attack (or more).

A badwrongfun AD&D Middle Earth game would really hit the spot. It would have to stray into gonzo without being intentionally so. Probably a sandbox hex crawl too. Heck, that's how I used to play MERP anyway.

Moria is and always will be the original and best sandbox dungeon crawl ever imagined. It is so good that most people who have approached it have averted their gaze at the last moment, in fear of the awesomeness before them. That's why we don't have anything like an authoritative and complete game supplement set there. ICE put out its MERP supplement, and Decipher did a surprisingly good boxed set. But both pale in comparison to lots of D&D-genre megadungeons out there (Rappan Athuk, Undermountain, etc.). Basically, everyone who has put pen to paper to make an official version chickened out. But I've run several strings of sessions in Moria and all were super fun. It is limitless, and done right should contain many things that would horrify and then murder the highest level people in the setting.

Another excellent middle earth sandbox setting is Mordor in the decades following the events in The Hobbit. The books tell us little about what is happening there, but we know it is a time when the ruined fortresses were being rebuilt and evil things were waking up and gathering there. The MERP module is one of their better ones, and can be supplemented with another half dozen smaller modules set on its margins. Yet the place isn't quite yet coalesced into an organized and defended armed camp, so PC's can imagine getting in and out. We have had a ton of fun there. Just going on a scouting mission to see what is at Barrad Dur and then get back out is an epic undertaking.

I worked on The Fellowship in Moria combat scenarios for TFT and GURPS, for fun/experiment but haven't run Middle Earth as a campaign. TFT is simpler/easier but a bunch of orcs will tend to cut up unarmored characters unless you add house rules to reduce the chances of that. GURPS can work better since your heroes can block/dodge/parry, but as usual with GURPS, much depends on the GM's skills and experience, and there's the question of what you want it to be like, and translating that into which rules you use, and how you build the characters, especially if you have Gandalf, Aragorn, old elves, etc. One thing to notice is very strong things (e.g. a cave troll with a weapon) are liable to do very high damage if/when they hit someone).

TFT is a deadly system for any campaign where there are lots of fights. Perhaps prohibitively so for gonzo blood baths. I felt like this was a feature rather than a problem with our ME campaigns, because it meant players have to approach adventures in ways that jive with the stories. Yes, there are fights, but there is also a lot of effort put into avoiding enemies and escaping fights, and combat is perceived as dangerous by all of the characters. I think each of the 4 middle earth books (The Hobbit, FOTR, TT, ROTK) has about a dozen fights (including some big battles). A surprisingly large fraction of these involve the 'PC' characters losing and fleeing, being incapacitated, or killed. So, while it's true that if you play a ME campaign using TFT you are probably going to lose a PC every couple of adventures, that can be seen as a good thing. Anyway, we had a lot of fun with it.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1025914Failed experiments include Runequest and Pendragon. Both of them struck me as totally ideal for Middle Earth, in a white-room, philosophizing sort of way, and I wrote up a bunch of house rules to make the systems translate to the setting. But somehow when we sat down and started playing it just didn't go anywhere. The play felt slow and cramped, and there was so much about the setting that just isn't in these games.

I recently strated giving thought about trying to run Middle-Earth with some BRP variant.

 There is a Open Quest variant that seems set in a semi-Middle-Earth First Age setting. Age of Sadow. Anyone played it?
http://ageofshadow.freehostia.com

The swedish translation of 1ed MERP  modules had dual stats for BRP (or rather "Drakar och Demoner" = skills were rated from 1-20 instead of 1-100) which I owned but never run back in the day. But there were zero attempt of rules adapation except from stats mods for rolling up basic attributes  for characters. And the general guideline to tone down the magic on the player side. Suggesting only druid-healer-types of mages for players. The Southern Mirkwood module did have stats for really powerful NPC like Radagast and Sauron himself (as the Necromancer). But within the DoD rules Sauron ( and his high-tier lieutenants) was practically unbeatable. Like a Great Old One in CoC.

Unisystem has been FOR ME the best system for RPGs based on fiction. AKA, the Buffy system.

It has produced the best sessions of Star Trek, Firefly, X-men and LotR that I've experienced by a massive margin.

Why? The mechanics that separate Major from Minor Hero work excellently and the players of the Minor Hero feel great because there's lots to do, whereas the Major PCs shine in the spotlight like the TV shows, movies, books, etc.

Low Fantasy Gaming RPG should do well for a middle earth style game, although you might remove the Magic User class and Dark & Dangerous Magic table. Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, plus optional Ranger class from Midlands (free on the site). Likely wouldnt want Monk or Artificer.

opps sorry I see you were asking for real play exp - I havent tried LFG for an actual ME campaign.

A Runequest/BRP variant should be excellent for a variety of reasons, but I encountered a couple of things we didn't like about it. I have a higher-magic interpretation of middle earth than lots of people in the gaming community advocate, and the BRP line editors have never succeeded at crafting a magic system that doesn't feel like re-branded Gloranthan spirit magic, or something that is only suitable for a specific narrow setting (CoC, Stormbringer). I don't think BRP offers the pallet of magic that middle earth calls for. Second, big monsters in BRP are relatively fragile and easy to kill. Like, a dragon is dangerous to a couple of individuals, but could not come close to trashing a company of soldiers or ruin a city. Third, there isn't a plausible route for a heroic sort of PC to become as mighty as a Boromir or Aragorn sort of character.

You could make some of these criticisms about TFT, which I found to be very fun in a middle earth campaign. So, I can imagine others having a different experience than I did. All I know is we gave BRP a serious try and it fell flat.

Pendragon was the one I thought was going to be flipping perfect. The system for passions and loyalties, the combat system, the tech level, the range in power accessible to PC's - all of it seems like exactly what you'd want. I am not sure why it didn't just fly off the page like I expected it to. It might be that you pretty much have to make up the whole magic system (the one presented in 4E Pendragon is garbage and not worth even looking at). You could declare that magic is just stuff the DM says happens, but I really don't think that is the right take on gaming in middle earth. You also have to make up all the races and creatures. And convert all the backgrounds from the specific setting of Pendragon to middle earth. And some other stuff. Perhaps it was just too big of a gap to bridge without putting in more effort.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1026033Unisystem has been FOR ME the best system for RPGs based on fiction. AKA, the Buffy system.

It has produced the best sessions of Star Trek, Firefly, X-men and LotR that I've experienced by a massive margin.

Why? The mechanics that separate Major from Minor Hero work excellently and the players of the Minor Hero feel great because there's lots to do, whereas the Major PCs shine in the spotlight like the TV shows, movies, books, etc.

That's an interesting suggestion. Does Unisystem have ready-made monsters, magic and items appropriate for ME, or would you have to make them up?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1026033Unisystem has been FOR ME the best system for RPGs based on fiction. AKA, the Buffy system.

It has produced the best sessions of Star Trek, Firefly, X-men and LotR that I've experienced by a massive margin.

Why? The mechanics that separate Major from Minor Hero work excellently and the players of the Minor Hero feel great because there's lots to do, whereas the Major PCs shine in the spotlight like the TV shows, movies, books, etc.

Yes, I can see that:).
"Hobbit: You're always a Minor hero, staying in the shadow - but not in the Shadow - of the bigger men":D.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1026092That's an interesting suggestion. Does Unisystem have ready-made monsters, magic and items appropriate for ME, or would you have to make them up?

Not an expert on Unisystem, somehow I'm always a player in this one, and it's always been Classic Unisystem, not Cinematic, which Spinachcat is talking about. But my guess would be "probably no, unless you adapt" on monsters, very much "yes" on the magic, and "probably yes" on the items;). At the very least, they would be Items of Power, rare as hen's teeth and hugely powerful.


Yes, the more I think about it, the more I agree that if I was to run Middle Earth, I'd probably use Unisystem. Or I could adapt Mythras by picking the optional Passions rule, and making them like those in Pendragon. Or adapt Spellbound Kingdoms, because passions driving your magic is great for Middle Earth:p.
But Unisystem would be a strong contender, that's for sure!
Of course, the odds of me running Middle Earth are slim to none, and Slim has felt the Road calling to him, but that's because my players wouldn't be really interested in it:p. More precisely, I suspect if I was to drop the current Tekumel campaign for Middle Earth, they'd strangle me in my sleep:D! (Luckily, I don't want to do that anyway, because I like Tekumel better than Middle Earth).

Based on a minute or two of Googling, it looks like all versions of Unisystem are variants of each other, each presented as a setting specific game, and pretty much all of those are modern fantasy or modern horror. Am I wrong? If this is how the system is presented, it sounds like a lot of work to get it burnished up and ready for the table if you want to use it for some sort of quasi medieval fantasy game with a well developed setting like Middle Earth.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1026128Based on a minute or two of Googling, it looks like all versions of Unisystem are variants of each other, each presented as a setting specific game, and pretty much all of those are modern fantasy or modern horror. Am I wrong? If this is how the system is presented, it sounds like a lot of work to get it burnished up and ready for the table if you want to use it for some sort of quasi medieval fantasy game with a well developed setting like Middle Earth.

No, there are two variants, Classic Unisystem and Cinematic Unisystem:).

And they've got swords, armour and other equipment like this, because many demons and other supernaturals either use them, or are vulnerable to them. So, no, it wouldn't be that much work;).

Spirit of the Century (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?316159-SotC-Ran-Middle-Earth-today) was fantastic. The group didn't hurt either.

I haven't actually played it in a Middle Earth setting, but I think that HeroQuest 2.0/HeroQuest Glorantha would be a great fit due to it's ability to make Samewise's "Loyal to Frodo Baggins" as important as Boromir's "Kill Orc".

AD&D1 worked well.  The GM made some adjustments:

• No PC Magic-Users, Illusionists, Clerics, Druids, or Monks.
• Added in the Arcanum/Compleat Alchemist herbs and potions rules.
• Came up with a lot of minor magic items (like a pipe that lets you change the color of the smoke)

No one ever cast a spell, but there was a lot of magic.

I've been thinking about revisiting Middle Earth with Mythras.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1026092Does Unisystem have ready-made monsters, magic and items appropriate for ME, or would you have to make them up?

I haven't GM'd Unisystem, only played it. But I've seen plenty of source material for various IPs which I imagine has everything you need, or easily could extrapolate. Nothing in Unisystem seemed troublesome to convert, aka if you have a LotR list of stuff, I am sure you could snag, modify or convert with ease.

I am surprised there isn't an OGL Unisystem-clone. Or is there?

Quote from: markmohrfield;1026148I haven't actually played in a Middle Earth setting, but I think that HeroQuest 2.0/HeroQuest Glorantha would be a great fit due to it's ability to make Samewise's "Loyal to Frodo Baggins" as important as Boromir's "Kill Orc".

I've played in a HQ LotR campaign and you're right, but I find HQ too wonky for my tastes. It was extremely cool how the GM drilled down to give lists of unique traits to mundane items.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1025914I've run Middle Earth campaigns using a number of game systems other than the licensed ones.....
.

Hey Lars! Did you finnish the spell list for your D&D hack, Balrogs&Bagginsess?

Quote from: Teodrik;1026349Hey Lars! Did you finnish the spell list for your D&D hack, Balrogs&Bagginsess?

I did! I was just thinking about sending another round of that fantasy heartbreaker out into the intertubes.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1026381I did! I was just thinking about sending another round of that fantasy heartbreaker out into the intertubes.

Awesome!

I have played Trudvang Chronicles and think you could play a helluva good Middle Earth Game with it. It is a d100 descendant, based on many of the same myth cycles that Tolkien was, magic system has a very similar feel, lots of similar monsters.

All Flesh Must Be Eaten is Unisystem.  It has a supplement called Dungeons & Zombies.  To quote the blurb, "It covers all aspects of fantasy role-playing, from gritty swords and sorcery to literary high fantasy, from King Arthur to the mysterious orient, all using the popular Unisystem rules...."

Quote from: Narmer;1026448All Flesh Must Be Eaten is Unisystem.  It has a supplement called Dungeons & Zombies.  To quote the blurb, "It covers all aspects of fantasy role-playing, from gritty swords and sorcery to literary high fantasy, from King Arthur to the mysterious orient, all using the popular Unisystem rules...."

I actually have that, somewhere in my gaming closet! I don't think I've played it in a decade or more, but I do remember it being cool and pretty generalizable. I'll have to dig it out and take a look.

Give Mongoose d20 Conan a shot (I used the 1.5 "Atlantean" edition but 2nd edition has enough nice fixes to be worth getting, I'd recommend the core book and the Scrolls of Skelos magic book)

A bit off-topic since I haven't used it for Middle Earth but I did use it with great success for an Icelandic Sagas game which worked with some of the source material of Middle Earth. It's based on 3.5ed so it has a lot of that system's warts intact (fucking skill points etc.) but it's meant for low magic and it's far far far and away the best version of 3.5ed.

The magic system is especially good and it includes a lot of subtle and small scale magic that'd fit in well for Middle Earth and the way characters are set up you can take a level or two as a scholar to be able to do some divination without borking your character's fighting ability. The core book + Scrolls of Skelos gives you enough magical schools that you can pick out the ones that fit Middle Earth, nix the too Conany ones and end up with a good magical system. One nice thing the second edition did is replace the stupid "defensive blast" magic that mages get with school-specific emergency magic that burns through ALL of your MPs but allows wizards to try to cheat death (the divination one lets you automatically pass a saving throw, others do other things often cool and flavorful) which makes the scholar class interesting and fun despite having much much less raw casting power than a standard D&D wizard.

Also taking an axe to everything magic in 3.5ed and rebuilding it from the ground up makes the system lighter and less complicated even after adding in stuff like armor giving DR. Having virtually no magical items or magical buffs really reduces a lot of headaches.

Just keep level advancement fairly slow unless you want to go full Silmarillion.

Balance is pretty good (vastly better than 3.5ed core) except for the barbarian class being a touch overpowered and strength being a bit of a god stat, but hey it's a Conan book. The scholar class (the one that uses magic) is perfectly balanced and the best part of the system, especially if you want to run a low magic world.

Just the other day I got my copy of Tales & Legends. A retroclone of Lord of the Rings Adventure Game from ICE. It is quite neat. And several MERP modules got dual stats and conversion notes for the LotRAG system. And it is very easy to convert stats from MERP. Like MERP it is not closely adapted per se for ME, but the power level is far lower. It is more of a rules light generic fantasy system useing two d6. It was originally used as system for the ICE solo-adventure books (Tolkien Quest).

There has been another iteration of this system floating about the nets for years. Middle-Earth Adventure Game.

I have never played or read it, but I have seen several people swearing by Burning Wheel as the ultimate Middle-Earth game. No idea about the truth of it. Seems quite dense with a core rules book of 600+ pages. And as I have understood, very story-gamey.

Quote from: Teodrik;1026903I have never played or read it, but I have seen several people swearing by Burning Wheel as the ultimate Middle-Earth game. No idea about the truth of it. Seems quite dense with a core rules book of 600+ pages. And as I have understood, very story-gamey.

Burning Wheel has a lot of middle earth flavor, and pulls it off with a lot of distinctive flair in the treatment of the various racial archetypes. It doesn't provide any explicit support for the setting, of course, so it is basically a system you could use to game in middle earth provided you are putting together all the maps and adventures and so forth (which I'm cool with - that's the premise of this thread, after all). I tried to get a BW middle earth campaign going, but my players hated it. In my experience, it is one of those systems that is cool to read, and DM's love it when they are preparing stuff, but when you sit down at the table it falls apart because the core mechanics are full of bullshit. But YMMV, etc.,

Quote from: Larsdangly;1026909In my experience, it is one of those systems that is cool to read, and DM's love it when they are preparing stuff, but when you sit down at the table it falls apart because the core mechanics are full of bullshit. But YMMV, etc.,

I have the same impression but I put it down to not being sufficiently aquainted with the rules. It just seemed WAY overly complex. Fiddly even. So that is why I was so pleased to pick up Torchbearer thinking that it was a slimmed down version of the game with an Old School feel. Unfortunately a lot of the ideas that sold me on the game in the first place are embedded in a system that I just can't really see working with my group.

I guess all the players of these lines prove that it does indeed work effectively as a system but codifying my characters' motivations to such a degree and the combat system that seems to be abstract to the degree that it feels like a mini-game in a game, well, it is not for me.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1026954I have the same impression but I put it down to not being sufficiently aquainted with the rules. It just seemed WAY overly complex. Fiddly even. So that is why I was so pleased to pick up Torchbearer thinking that it was a slimmed down version of the game with an Old School feel. Unfortunately a lot of the ideas that sold me on the game in the first place are embedded in a system that I just can't really see working with my group.

I guess all the players of these lines prove that it does indeed work effectively as a system but codifying my characters' motivations to such a degree and the combat system that seems to be abstract to the degree that it feels like a mini-game in a game, well, it is not for me.

BW is one of the best examples of the hobby's worst habits: wasting its creative energy on filling the world with an endless stream of core rules systems, all engineered to do things that are perfectly well dealt with by rules we've had for 30 years. This isn't nostalgia, it is just common sense: how many years do you think it takes for a community of millions of players and dozens of companies to figure out a couple of good core mechanics for resolving sword fights and stuff like that? Maybe 5 years at the outside? There is nothing you are going to dream up that wasn't dreamt up, play tested and either included in some widely available game or rejected as too stupid to survive at the table by the early 1980's. BW is just a particularly lovingly crafted version of what you get when someone insists on making a group learn 85 new mechanical sub systems that have nothing to do with any game they've seen before but basically replicate core game-table activities that have been covered literally hundreds of times at this point. It is all so stupid. The greatest insight of the OSR community is to leave your rules engineering to a bit of house-rule scale fiddling at the margins, and focus your energy on the things that matter, like cool settings, fun dungeons, spells, gooey monsters, etc.

I've tried running games in Middle Earth with a number of systems over the years. The only one that is really memorable was the the time in 1976 or 1977 when a group of players activated a random teleport trap in my Pyramid dungeon and I rolled a 00 which sent them to another dimension. Thinking fast, I picked Middle Earth and had the group appear in Bree just hours before Frodo and company arrived. The parent ended up going with the fellowship. Much fun was had by all until the group realized (when they were in Minas Tirith) that they had not seen any sign of Gollum since they took at arrow shot at him in Moria. Yes, they had killed Gollum and had to race to Mount Doom to prevent Frodo from putting on the ring and then being captured by Nazgul (as Gollum would not be there to take it from him).

Yes, this was run with the original brown box D&D and the players were allowed to use their knowledge of the books -- which made it more interesting for everyone.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1026909Burning Wheel has a lot of middle earth flavor, and pulls it off with a lot of distinctive flair in the treatment of the various racial archetypes. It doesn't provide any explicit support for the setting, of course, so it is basically a system you could use to game in middle earth provided you are putting together all the maps and adventures and so forth (which I'm cool with - that's the premise of this thread, after all). I tried to get a BW middle earth campaign going, but my players hated it. In my experience, it is one of those systems that is cool to read, and DM's love it when they are preparing stuff, but when you sit down at the table it falls apart because the core mechanics are full of bullshit. But YMMV, etc.,

Burning Wheel is very clever but clever doesn't mean well designed, aside from having a lot of indie/metagame mechanics that aren't to everyone's taste it has a few issues:
1. Failure by its author to kill his darlings. There are just way to many ideas in the book, many of which are fine by themselves, but there are just so many things to get used to that it can overwhelm the game's focus.
2. It's a bit of a weird hybrid between a fantasy heartbreaker crunchfest and an foofy indie game. This clashes sometimes.
3. It's much more the kind of game that GMs want to play then the kind of game that the actual typical player wants to play.
4. So much of the flavor is wrapped around the rules that you really need to the whole group to be gung-ho about understanding how the game works for the game to be fun. It doesn't work well for "I'll tell you what my guy's doing and you tell me what to roll" players.
5. Some of the people who really love Burning Wheel love it because the rules make it basically impossible to railroad the players, but it's just a lot easier to not railroad the players in the first place then to play a game that prevents you from railroading players.

I find that BW works best for convention one-shots with pregens that are in conflict with each other. It can be fun for that.

I've used the following for actual play in Middle Earth:

• MERP: It worked okay, but I had some problems with the magic system for Middle Earth. As a licensed game, I think it could've done a better job, there.
• Rolemaster (RM1/RM2): This was just the "full version" of the system from which MERP was derived. Unsurprisingly, it shared the issues I had with MERP. However, I prefer RM over MERP. You have to tweak it for Middle Earth, of course. But tweaking Rolemaster is part of the charm of Rolemaster.
• AD&D (1e): Standard D&D isn't a perfect fit for Middle Earth, but there are a lot of elements that work well if you spend some time tweaking the rules. Again, the magic system is one area of concern.

At one time or another I've also considered (or even started working up) Middle Earth games using Chaosium BRP and Harnmaster. Neither of those saw actual play. In the case of BRP, it's because I ultimately thought that a class/level system fit what I was going for better than a grittier skill based system. In the case of Harnmaster, my thinking was similar, but also influenced by my relative unfamiliarity with Harnmaster compared to other possible systems.

If I were picking a Middle Earth system to run, today, I think I'd use house-ruled TSR D&D (either original D&D or 1e AD&D, in my case). I think the basic structure of the game fits the kind of adventuring I'd look for in Middle Earth. Also, I'm very comfortable with the system and confident in tweaking it to fit my vision of Middle Earth and gaming in Middle Earth. (I've heard good things about the 5e Middle Earth stuff, so I might look at that for inspiration or for stuff to steal, but I'd prefer running TSR D&D instead of 5e.)

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1027014If I were picking a Middle Earth system to run, today, I think I'd use house-ruled TSR D&D (either original D&D or 1e AD&D, in my case). I think the basic structure of the game fits the kind of adventuring I'd look for in Middle Earth. Also, I'm very comfortable with the system and confident in tweaking it to fit my vision of Middle Earth and gaming in Middle Earth. (I've heard good things about the 5e Middle Earth stuff, so I might look at that for inspiration or for stuff to steal, but I'd prefer running TSR D&D instead of 5e.)

I have to ask why AD&D over Adventures in Middle Earth? I could understand if you were using OD&D + selected elements from the supplements but AD&D?

After playing a few sessions with AiME I doodled around with making a OD&D variant modeled after it (axing the magic user and cleric for a scholar class, culture as race, etc). But I found it didn't save much in terms of complexity or ease of running. Most of my opinion was formed from the writing I been doing on my own clone.

For example I took various OD&D monsters and wrote them 'as is' but in stat block form. The result is not unlike later edition equivalents. It just as originally presented they look more compact due to be written in a explanatory paragraph. It gets particularly bad for those creatures with per day spell abilities.

This got started a few years ago when I grew tired of trying to pick out everything certain creatures did from reading a paragraph or two of text. I started writing it down as a bullet list. Obviously for skeletons, orcs, and similar creatures this is not an issue. But one of the campaigns I was running had high level PC that were dealing with some of the more powerful and complex OD&D monsters.

AiME is not perfect (Slayer class I am looking at you), but out of the galaxy of D&D editions, and clones; it is by far the best presentation of Middle Earth as a roleplaying game for that family of game. And for RPGs in general, it far better than the MERPS rules, and far easier to run than Decipher's take or The One Ring RPG also by Cubicle.

You could get something close with GURPS, or Fate. But would be a bit of work using the toolikits of those system get what Cublicle has already done the work for.

Sorry if I come off strongly with my opinion, but in my view AiME is that good. And because of substantial changes to how classes and other elements work plays very different than D&D 5e RAW.

AiME is a good game, but I would prefer 1E or BD&D for a middle earth campaign for two reasons: 1) I think the elevated ratio of HP to typical damage slows combat in 5E way too much (at all time scales, but particularly HP per day or week, which is out of control). And 2) All editions of D&D benefit from having an excellent representation of relative power across a wide range of power. But the OSR generation editions do so without blowing your doors off with fiddly details as power level rises. A very powerful 1E character might be 10th or 12th level, and their character sheet isn't really that much harder to parse than a 1st or 2nd level version of that character. A very powerful 5E character is 15th-20th level, and has a character sheet that reads like the Alternative Minimum Tax rules. Same but double it for monsters: A scary 1E monster has a HD rating, an AC, and one or two or three relevant special powers you should remember (most of which operate without any fiddly mechanics). A scary 5E monster has a wordy quarter-page stat block with a dozen interlocking powers you are supposed to adjudicate. Both of these things slow combat. Slow combat is awesome when you are playing a board game about combat, but this has never been D&D's strong point. D&D is at its best when any given conflict can be resolved in 10-15 minutes, absolute maximum.

To crystal clear my point in debating you is that AiME, a 5th edition variant, saves a ton work in running a Middle Earth campaign for a referee that otherwise a fan of classic edition. AiME not just 5e with flavor text but a reworking of all the "stuff" classes, items, and monsters to fully support a Middle Earth campaign. The core combat rules remain the same and how you do ability/skill checks remain the same.

The changes in conjunction with makes for a very different experience from 5e RAW with surprisingly little overhead over a classic D&D set of rules. More importantly all the heavy lifting mechanic wise (like axing magic users) have done.

Again I found my thinking "How can I make OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry work like this." Then I realize it was a lot of work for little gain  given how AiME used the 5th edition rules.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1027057AiME is a good game, but I would prefer 1E or BD&D for a middle earth campaign for two reasons: 1) I think the elevated ratio of HP to typical damage slows combat in 5E way too much (at all time scales, but particularly HP per day or week, which is out of control).

I am not seeing this. Mainly because of the restrictions when you can take short/long rests and lethality of AiME creatures. This is over two campaigns and a half dozen one-shots.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1027057And 2) All editions of D&D benefit from having an excellent representation of relative power across a wide range of power. But the OSR generation editions do so without blowing your doors off with fiddly details as power level rises. A very powerful 1E character might be 10th or 12th level, and their character sheet isn't really that much harder to parse than a 1st or 2nd level version of that character. A very powerful 5E character is 15th-20th level, and has a character sheet that reads like the Alternative Minimum Tax rules.

It disagree, 5e is more, and AiME does share that to an extent. But keep in mind that AiME is less sophisticated than 5e RAW. The classes have two alternate paths and the virtue system plays out different than 5e feats.

I done the lists of 5e stuff versus OD&D versus AD&D. And frankly I am not seeing enough of a different to warrant calling even 5e RAW a form of Alternative Minimum Tax rules.

What is a problem is the dense text of the core book and the supplements. So for my campaign I do stuff like this I did for the Halfling Shadow a Monk class variant (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%205e%20Berserker.pdf).

Or this I did for the Basic four classes (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx9oLF40m-b8T05PUENoUi1RUDg/view?usp=sharing) to use not only as an aide but to get a handle on how things progressed. Much of the extra stuff is just stacking more times per days on abilities gained at lower level.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1027057Same but double it for monsters: A scary 1E monster has a HD rating, an AC, and one or two or three relevant special powers you should remember (most of which operate without any fiddly mechanics).

This is overblown. For my own project I went through the list of monster and OD&D and selected supplements. I kept the abilities pretty much 'as is' and rewrote them in a stat block. Why? Because at it turns out that for the higher end monsters the paragraph of text style of explaining this proved to be cumbersome in actual play.

Sure if you played umpteen years and memorized things. But I was coming off of two decades of GURPS so needed a better reference so started making bullet lists. The stat block are just a nicely formatted version of that list.

Now while I say it overblown, it is more so you are not wrong in that respect. And there are several examples in 5e RAW of a monster like a Red Dragon occupying a page or two of text. However that not the case so far in AiME. Even Ringwraiths with two alternative forms are not much more complex ability wise than a AD&D Demon Lord and occupy a similiar "niche" in the overal scheme of the campaign.

The more ordinary monsters of orcs, trolls, the dead, and wargs are much more simpler. And you are forgetting that stat block in AiME (and 5e) are largely complete. In that they have all the rules for running the monster inside of them. The only thing that isn't are the basic combat rules and the what the keywords mean.

The one line stat block format is not complete especially for characters. It relies on memorization. For the most part OD&D that rarely an issue but, for AD&D it omits a lot of information. And if you flesh it out, you have a 3e/4e/5e style statblock on your hands.

For example this is a 12th level Lich from Swords & Wizardry written up in the stat block I been using for the past couple of years.

12th Level Lich
Init +6; Note this is my own addition AC 0[20]; HD 12; HP 42; Save 3;
Move 60'; CL/XP 15/2,900;
Attacks (x1)
Fist; HTB +12, DMG 1d10 (Paralytic Touch);
Special
Horrifying Appearance: The horrific appearance of a lich causes any being of 4 HD or lower to become paralyzed with fear.
Magical Immunities: Immune to disease and poison.
Spellcasting: A lich cast spells as if it is a 12th level Magic User. It memorize the following number of spells; 4 1st level, 4 2nd level, 4 3rd level, 4 4th level, 4 5th level, and 1 6th level.
Paralytic Touch: The chaos of the necromantic energies inhabiting the Lich causing any target that is hit with the Lich's hand to become paralyzed (no saving throw).
Harvest Note: this is my own addition
Lich Dust 1,000d;
Magic-User Spells (12th Level)
1st Level: Charm Person, Magic Missile x2, Sleep
2nd Level: Detect Evil, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Web
3rd Level: Fireball, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Protection from Missiles
4th Level: Confusion, Dimension Door, Polymorph Other, Wall of Fire
5th Level: Cloudkill, Conjuration of Fire Elemental, Telekinesis, Teleport
6th Level: Disintegrate

Nicely formatted and laid out it is as you criticize a quarter page stat block with a dozen interlocking powers.

This is the information found in the Greyhawk supplement
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2254[/ATTACH]

This seemly simple "stat block" actually packs a lot behind it that when spelled like in later edition causes the result to be a lot larger.

Of course the same lich in AD&D? Well

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2255[/ATTACH]

Now lets look at AiME

First the biggest and baddest monster. Note I don't feel comfortable with making a legible image.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2256[/ATTACH]

Looks bad even with the stats block alone occupying a single page. (There is a previous page with the flavor text). However when I read it makes sense in terms of the importance of the Ringwraith and the what Tolkien written about it. There are two stat block because it has two distinct forms it can take. Together there are about a dozen distinct abilities several of which are shared between the two forms. Outside of some skills that it.

Now compare to the lich with 17 spells and three special abilities. Yeah the 5e style block has more. But in terms of the mechanics being defined I am buying that 5e in the form of AiME is being overblown. Different sure.

As for slowing down combat. The shit right there in front of me. I don't need to refer back to Men & Magic or the PHB to remember what Dimension Door exactly does. It spelled out right in the stat block itself.

Now to be fair this was a problem in 3rd edition D&D and Pathfinder. Those two edition not only had much longer lists of abilities but also like the spell lists made you go back and look stuff up. One of the few thing 4e did right was stop doing that. Instead in 4e everything spelled in the stat block itself and 5e wisely continued this.

So enough about the lich/ringwraith, what AiME going to jam down a old school referee throat with a just a simple orc?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2257[/ATTACH]

While it is indeed a quarter page. But it only has four abilities of note plus a skill and attributes. Grant OD&D entry is very terse, and AD&D version has mostly flavor text that balloon's to a quarter page. But overblown in comparison? I don't agree. Especially when you look over all the different orcs, goblins, and other creatures they have and how well they translated it from Tolkien's writings.

Where I clearly agree with you is that if someone wants to roleplay in middle earth without making up any of their own house rules or other stuff, then AiME is the way to go. I'd say it's no contest, given that MERP has awesome setting materials but is out of print and has a system that hasn't aged well, Decipher is out of print (and unplayable), and TOR has awesome setting material, is in print, and there are a bunch of fans, but the system bugs the crap out of me.

I'm not on board with the rest of your arguments. I'm not going to get tangled up in a detailed clash of world views about stat blocks, but comparing the full monster manual write up of a lich to a ghost or orc or whatever doesn't really get across the flavor of the thing. Here's an orc captain in 1E format: "3 HD; AC 4; 1 attack for 1d8 damage". It would take a half page of text to present him in AiME.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1027067Here's an orc captain in 1E format: "3 HD; AC 4; 1 attack for 1d8 damage". It would take a half page of text to present him in AiME.

Yes the Great Orc on page 97 does take up a half page. However the above is not same type of creature as the Great Orc in AiME. It comparing apples to oranges.

If I was to write this for OD&D/Swords & Wizardry I would go

Great Orc
AC 4[15]; HD 7; HP 35; Save 7;
Move 30' (slowed by bulky armor); CL/XP 8/800;
Attacks (x2)
Scimitar; HTB +7, DMG 1d8+1; or
Axe; HTB +7, DMG 1d8+1; or
Spear; HTB +7, DMG 1d6+1; Range:20 feet
Special
Fell Speed: Once per round the Orc can move out of combat without provoking an attack.
Commanding Voice: The Great Orc can inspire it's allies with barked commands and horrible threat. All allies within 30 feet are effected by the equivalent of a bless spell (+1 to hit).
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in Sunlight the Great Orc suffer -2 to attack rolls and -1 to surprise checks.

One line it would be

QuoteGreat Orc AC 4;  MV 3"; HD 7; hp 37; #AT 2; D 1d8+1; SA Fell Speed, Commanding Voice; Sunlight Sensitive

But then again we could do a one line AiME stat line

Great Orc AC 20 (chain, hide shield); SPD: 30 ft.; HP 75; nAtk 2; Scimitar (2d4+4); S 18(+4); D 14 (+2); C 17 (+3); I 10 (+0); W 14 (+0); Ch 14 (+2); Save: S (+7); C(+6); W (+5); Skill: Intimid +4; Sense: Darkvision 30 ft; AB: Bulky Armor, Fell Speed, Sunlight Sensitivity; Actions: Multiattack, Scimitar; React: Commanding Voice; CL: 4/1,100 XP

Which is equivalent in length to this guy from module UK1 Into the Crystal Cave

QuoteHamish (AC 0; F5; hp 35; #AT 1; D by weapon type; AL NG; S 18,19.W10, D16, C15, Ch 10). He wears chain mall armour+2 and uses an ordinary shield which rests beside his bed. He is armed with a longsword +1 (NSA) and a non-magical dagger. There is a set of teleport keys in his belt pouch.

Yes 5e has more bulk but it not as radical difference. Mostly it is matter of presentation. The default is to list the stat block once and any time it referred too it is highlighted in bold. For example

Gorbag, a Great Orc,  is in commanded of the orcs at Fenbridge.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1027067I'm not going to get tangled up in a detailed clash of world views about stat blocks,.

Not asking you to like later edition style stat block. Only that in this case it not as dramatically different as it being made out to be.

Quote from: estar;1027047...I doodled around with making a OD&D variant... (axing the magic user and cleric for a scholar class, culture as race, etc)..

What did the scholar class look like?

Quote from: Narmer;1027082What did the scholar class look like?

All scholars have a limited ability to heal a limited number of times per rest. There are two path, one to be a better healer and deals with things like herbs in more detail. The other focuses on lore and gathering information. The healing mechanics is a dice pool where you expend healing dice. Not only hit points can be healed but it can be used to remove disease, neutralize poison, and remove conditions. The remove condition turns out to be important as a lot of the "bad" things that can involve imposing a condition of some type.

I was kind of skeptical about the dice pool concept but it works well in practice. The flavor of it dovetails nicely with the other mechanics. The general gist that a healer can only do much until they need a considerable time (i.e. the fellowship phase) to rebuild their supplies and energy.

And knowledge is a big part of a AiME campaign and the Lore side has a lot of interesting flavor especially with dealing with animals and influencing people. There are abilities that allows a PC do some of what Saurman does.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1027057Slow combat is awesome when you are playing a board game about combat, but this has never been D&D's strong point. D&D is at its best when any given conflict can be resolved in 10-15 minutes, absolute maximum.

This what keeps me playing TSR editions. Long combats bore me both as a player and as a GM. I don't mind lots of combat so long as the vast majority of combats take 10-15 minutes maximum. In general, 5e seems to have shorter combats than 3.x or 4e, but 0e and B/X is still much faster than 5e. Better, they have less complex and faster character creation. Perhaps I ought to try to write up a variant that would work well for Middle Earth. If I base it on S&W Whitebox or S&W Continual Light (or even Microlite74), it probably would not be too hard. Finding the time to do it would be harder.

Lion & Dragon!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1027484Lion & Dragon!

Have you done it, or just a suggestion?

Quote from: estar;1027085All scholars have a limited ability to heal a limited number of times per rest. There are two path, one to be a better healer and deals with things like herbs in more detail. The other focuses on lore and gathering information. The healing mechanics is a dice pool where you expend healing dice. Not only hit points can be healed but it can be used to remove disease, neutralize poison, and remove conditions. The remove condition turns out to be important as a lot of the "bad" things that can involve imposing a condition of some type.

I was kind of skeptical about the dice pool concept but it works well in practice. The flavor of it dovetails nicely with the other mechanics. The general gist that a healer can only do much until they need a considerable time (i.e. the fellowship phase) to rebuild their supplies and energy.

And knowledge is a big part of a AiME campaign and the Lore side has a lot of interesting flavor especially with dealing with animals and influencing people. There are abilities that allows a PC do some of what Saurman does.

Thanks.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1027484Lion & Dragon!

Didn't you mean "Zweihander"?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1027489Have you done it, or just a suggestion?

No, I haven't done it myself. But I'm betting it would work.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1028118No, I haven't done it myself. But I'm betting it would work.

I think the basic structure of L&D would be quite appropriate, but that it would take a good 20+ pages of new material to do the conversion. You would need to introduce relevant races and classes, and introduce magic and religion that are aimed at the setting (L&D's is superb for medieval europe, but middle earth has a different sort of thing going on)

Well, the Cymri can be renamed "hobbit" pretty much out of the box;). But there are plenty of other things to houserule, yes.

Hobbits weigh something like 30-40 pounds, maximum. Any game that allows them to have ST scores loosely similar to humans is simply ridiculous. So, if I were adapting a game to middle earth I'd write them up as different from L&D's Cymri. Also, Cymri are basically magicians, which doesn't jive with hobbits either.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1028319Hobbits weigh something like 30-40 pounds, maximum. Any game that allows them to have ST scores loosely similar to humans is simply ridiculous.

You mean, like how they can have 16 Str in D&D:)?

QuoteAlso, Cymri are basically magicians, which doesn't jive with hobbits either.

True that, you'd have to rmove the magic part. But the Cymri basically get the best saving throws, which is, according to source material, what the hobbits should be the best at;)!

FWIW:

We just started a Burning Wheel 4th Age Middle Earth campaign focused on the reclaiming of Moria by a Dwarven party.  I realize that BW may not be to everyone's taste, but we are rocking (pun intended).  BW is built for this type of thing IMO. The Dwarven BITs have essentially layed out an entire campaign without reading a single word of an "adventure path".  And Greed!!!!  Each to their own, but BW engerizes both myself and my players like no other system that I have tried.  I will grant that I have a love/hate relation with the system and the author, but I have to also admit that BW produces the best gaming experiences I have encountered across systems, from both sides of the screen. The Firebeards are up against the Longbeards.  Throw in a mutual love interest and trading agendas, and we are already off to the (drama/conflict) races.

Quote from: Tyndale;1028378FWIW:

We just started a Burning Wheel 4th Age Middle Earth campaign focused on the reclaiming of Moria by a Dwarven party.  I realize that BW may not be to everyone's taste, but we are rocking (pun intended).  BW is built for this type of thing IMO. The Dwarven BITs have essentially layed out an entire campaign without reading a single word of an "adventure path".  And Greed!!!!  Each to their own, but BW engerizes both myself and my players like no other system that I have tried.  I will grant that I have a love/hate relation with the system and the author, but I have to also admit that BW produces the best gaming experiences I have encountered across systems, from both sides of the screen. The Firebeards are up against the Longbeards.  Throw in a mutual love interest and trading agendas, and we are already off to the (drama/conflict) races.

I get it - one thing about BW that is totally brilliant is the way the cannonical fantasy races (plus a few others, like wolves and spiders) are presented. It is honestly a better and more creative treatment of the inhabitants of Tolkein's world than any licensed game I've ever seen (including TOR). This motivated me to start a BW Middle Earth campaign years ago, but my players just wouldn't do it - the system is idiosyncratic in a couple of ways that are basically pointless (e.g., the damage wheel - as if anyone gives a shit about some new super complicated way of counting up damage!) and this put them off the whole exercise. The goofy parts of BW are not unplayabe - just unfamiliar and ill advised. If you can get over the activation energy of learning these parts of the game, I'm sure a great experience would be your reward. But I suspect you need the whole group to buy into the idea from the get go.

One thing I wonder about BW is whether it can be used to resolve large combats without the game play mechanics grinding to a halt. E.g., if your player characters get caught up in fights that resemble some of the sharp skirmishes in the book (Balin's Tomb, or the Passing of Boromir), there are something like a couple dozen combatants to keep track of. If you are playing D&D, you are good to go - 20 or even 50 orcs running around making a nuisance of themselves is no problem. If you are playing BW, what do you do? Perhaps there is a skirmish-scale combat sub-system I'm forgetting, but my recollection is that you can either play it using the scripted combat rules (really only suitable for duels or combats between 2-3 people on a side at most), or the abbreviated combat system, which doesn't require scripting but still has resolution mechanics and a damage and injury system that is going to take hours to sort through. I feel like this is a scale of combat you can't really just 'hand wave' and still have a good time playing a Middle Earth campaign.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1028252I think the basic structure of L&D would be quite appropriate, but that it would take a good 20+ pages of new material to do the conversion. You would need to introduce relevant races and classes, and introduce magic and religion that are aimed at the setting (L&D's is superb for medieval europe, but middle earth has a different sort of thing going on)

True, there would be things that would need to be changed.

Mind you, Middle-Earth is definitely not medieval Europe, but it is based on medieval European folklore.

Quote from: estar;1027065...AiME, a 5th edition variant, saves a ton work in running a Middle Earth campaign for a referee that otherwise a fan of classic edition. AiME not just 5e with flavor text but a reworking of all the "stuff" classes, items, and monsters to fully support a Middle Earth campaign. The core combat rules remain the same and how you do ability/skill checks remain the same.

The changes in conjunction with makes for a very different experience from 5e RAW with surprisingly little overhead over a classic D&D set of rules. More importantly all the heavy lifting mechanic wise (like axing magic users) have done.

Again I found my thinking "How can I make OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry work like this." Then I realize it was a lot of work for little gain  given how AiME used the 5th edition rules.

Well, I picked up AiME from my FLGS and have been going through it. You're right: it's impressive. It seems to have the Middle Earth feel correct, and I'm not seeing anything that feels off, to me. The books are also quite nice: I like the art (which is unusual -- I rarely find modern game art to my taste).

I know you've advocated (based on experience) just using it as being a lot less work, and I get where you're coming from, but I'm leaning towards writing up some OD&D classes and sub-classes based on the AiME classes and going with that. I haven't decided 100%, though...

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1030847Well, I picked up AiME from my FLGS and have been going through it. You're right: it's impressive. It seems to have the Middle Earth feel correct, and I'm not seeing anything that feels off, to me. The books are also quite nice: I like the art (which is unusual -- I rarely find modern game art to my taste).

Excellent! The slayer class feel slightly off but only slightly.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1030847I know you've advocated (based on experience) just using it as being a lot less work, and I get where you're coming from, but I'm leaning towards writing up some OD&D classes and sub-classes based on the AiME classes and going with that. I haven't decided 100%, though...

I realize I am contradicting myself a bit, but if you have the time then go for it. My issue is that I got too many creative irons in the fire before I take my own crack at it. Toned done it makes a excellent template for a low key magic version of OD&D.

The supplements for AiME are equally good in their own way. Granted setting stuff is just the The One Ring material reformatted. However while I never cared for the The One Ring RPG, the supplements (once I started getting them after AiME) are top-notch. The AiME specific stuff is also nicely done as well. How they handled the Nazgul was nice. You can defeat them but all you doing is destroying the form they inhabit. They do for some of the more powerful adversaries like the Werewolf as well. Very cleverly done.

If you were going to start from a blank page and create a D+D campaign for middle earth something like BD+D is probably the best way to go - and that's speaking from experience. But AiME is quite good and tons of people think of 5E as the 'living' version of D+D in general. So, I don't see the point of swimming upstream on this one - my advice would be to just buy the stuff in print and have at it.

Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play with some trimmed down and rechannelled career paths.  From experience.

I have used Basic D&D (only three levels worked well) and Rolemaster/MERP.  I didn't love MERP back in the day but I think I would appreciate it more now.  

I own Adventures in Middle Earth and would love to try it.  Lion and Dragon was mentioned and some of it would translate quite well, especially the magic system.  Clerics as elves methinks, which fits the lore surprisingly well.

A nice mix is Basic or 1E Advanced D+D with the MERP modules, where you divide all NPC levels by 3 (MERP has notoriously jacked up NPC levels...). I can't think of a single negative experience running this way.

Quote from: estar;1030848Excellent! The slayer class feel slightly off but only slightly.

I'd probably just fold slayer into Fighters. Maybe a subclass...maybe not.

QuoteI realize I am contradicting myself a bit, but if you have the time then go for it. My issue is that I got too many creative irons in the fire before I take my own crack at it. Toned done it makes a excellent template for a low key magic version of OD&D.

I think I'll make a pass at it. If I get too bogged down I'll look at just using AiME as written.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1030908I think I'll make a pass at it. If I get too bogged down I'll look at just using AiME as written.

One key elements which made me go wow, is the elimination of the entire spell list. They didn't repurpose it like I did for the alternate spellcaster in my Majestic Wilderland, the spell list is gone completely. The next thing is they effectively a level of magic item beneath classic D&D one shot and +1 weapons. Even the potions while useful are less.

Also I think there has to be limit on how often one can be healed from any source based on level. In AiME because of the 5e roots they use the Hit Dice Recovery mechanic to manage this. For example AiME has a healing potion that when you quaff does a hit dice of healing. But if you are say 5th levels you can only drink 5 different ones until you have rested in a secure location i.e. their version of a long rest.

I own both The One Ring and AiME and have tremendous respect for their design, but neither is a game I'd want to play because of their interpretation of Middle Earth. I don't like the timeline (Late 3rd Age) or the setting (Wilderlands) relative to other places and eras available in Middle Earth, and I don't particularly like their minimalist approach - e.g. no spellcasting, no playable Dunedain or High Elves, very few magic items, etc.

I tend to agree with Michael Martinez's interpretation of Middle Earth on most matters:
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/can-men-use-magic-in-middle-earth/
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/how-rare-was-magic-in-middle-earth-should-gamers-have-lots-of-magic-items/
Etc.

Thematically, I found Decipher's LOTR RPG was probably closest to my view of Middle Earth, but the system was flawed. I'm currently running a Middle Earth campaign set in T.A. 1970, during the final confrontation between Arthedain and Angmar, using ACKS Heroic Fantasy, which I more-or-less wrote specifically so I could run Middle Earth and Hyboria in ACKS.  Anyone who has Heroic Fantasy Handbook and wants my Middle Earth specific adaptations (which I couldn't publish due to copyright), feel free to hit me up.

Quote from: amacris;1031130I own both The One Ring and AiME and have tremendous respect for their design, but neither is a game I'd want to play because of their interpretation of Middle Earth. I don't like the timeline (Late 3rd Age) or the setting (Wilderlands) relative to other places and eras available in Middle Earth

That looked to be a limitation until I saw what the The One Ring had. Given that they, Cublicle7 are working hard at getting AiME caught up the One Ring I don't think this is going to be an issue for much longer. For anything involving Arnor and Angmar, Rivendell add support for that region easy enough to backport in time to the Arthedain/Angmar period.

Quote from: amacris;1031130no spellcasting, no
playable Dunedain or High Elves, very few magic items, etc.

??? Dunedain is in the core AiME, and High Elves just been detailed as part of AiME release of Rivendell. As for spellcasting, there is magic but it is bound up in the abilities and virtues the character acquire. Right now in my ME campaign, the Dwarf Farin has a Raven friend who proven to be a boon to the party as a look-out and a source of information. Enoch is a scholar who opted for the healing path and inching close to legend territory with his skill at the healing arts and herbs.

https://middle-earth.xenite.org/how-rare-was-magic-in-middle-earth-should-gamers-have-lots-of-magic-items/
Etc.[/QUOTE]

Again AiME Loremaster Guide has a lot of magic items most of it low key. The recent Rivendell release has rules for the higher powered stuff. To me magic abounds with the AiME rules it just not the flashy kind that most fantasy RPG in terms of abilities or items.

Quote from: amacris;1031130Thematically, I found Decipher's LOTR RPG was probably closest to my view of Middle Earth, but the system was flawed. I'm currently running a Middle Earth campaign set in T.A. 1970, during the final confrontation between Arthedain and Angmar, using ACKS Heroic Fantasy, which I more-or-less wrote specifically so I could run Middle Earth and Hyboria in ACKS.  Anyone who has Heroic Fantasy Handbook and wants my Middle Earth specific adaptations (which I couldn't publish due to copyright), feel free to hit me up.

Can't argue with that. That really what it takes sometimes writing your own. Enjoyed it a lot BTW, I got into the kickstarter.

Quote from: estar;1031163??? Dunedain is in the core AiME, and High Elves just been detailed as part of AiME release of Rivendell. As for spellcasting, there is magic but it is bound up in the abilities and virtues the character acquire. Right now in my ME campaign, the Dwarf Farin has a Raven friend who proven to be a boon to the party as a look-out and a source of information. Enoch is a scholar who opted for the healing path and inching close to legend territory with his skill at the healing arts and herbs.

Hmmm. I am going by memory but I could swear that in neither AiME nor TOR were Rangers and High Elves available in the book. I thought they appeared in later supplement(s) as advanced characters you could introduce into a campaign. But I might be conflating the two systems. AiME with TOR. In any case I think their interpretation of ME is certainly valid and several of my favorite bloggers (you included) swear by it, it's just not quite to my taste. But I'd certainly play it if someone else was running it, for instance.

Thanks for the kind words on the Heroic Fantasy Kickstarter!

AiME sound surprisingly interesting.

I run a campaign around Mt. Gundabad using Tales of Blades and Heroes (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/100334/Tales-of-Blades-and-Heroes-Fantasy-RPG-rules).

Tales is a great game; highly overlooked.

Quote from: amacris;1031188Hmmm. I am going by memory but I could swear that in neither AiME nor TOR were Rangers and High Elves available in the book. I thought they appeared in later supplement(s) as advanced characters you could introduce into a campaign. But I might be conflating the two systems. AiME with TOR.

Yeah they mixed it up with the release of AiME. in ToR, Dunedain (Men of the North) and High Elves (Elves of Rivendell) were detailed in later supplements. In AiME the Men of North were part of initial release while the High Elves are going to be released as part of the Rivendell supplement. I just got the pre-order PDF for that book.