Ok, so what's the best RPG combat system you've seen... and why do you think its the best?
RPGPundit
Criteria?
Rolemaster: best crits, best flexibility in choosing offense vs. defense, and your choice of weapons is always meaningful instead of just another flavor of d8.
If looking for a specific subset of a system, Scion/Exalted's tick-based initiative is the best for me. It's incredibly easy to track, and simple to grasp.
Fuck, Jim, you can´t answer the question!
It was not a real question!
He didn´t say,...ahh forget it, just merrily babble all you want.
:rolleyes:
Rolemaster hands down.
-Options for focusing on attack vs. defense.
-Weapon choice matters, as well as armor choice. Wearing full plate vs. a breastplate vs. full leather armor had very different effects.
-Crit tables ensured that each combat action was exciting.
Um , Best Combat System?
GURPS - but you knew I was going to say that.
In all the games I've GM-ed over the years its been the most felexible one to use with players.
- Ed C.
My Favorite Game! The reason? It's My Favorite Game, of course! :O
-clash
Quote from: KoltarUm , Best Combat System?
GURPS - but you knew I was going to say that.
He said
best combat system, not
blandest. :D
Quote from: jgantsHe said best combat system, not blandest. :D
Well "BEST" would be paint pellet guns in an area with good line of sight, you silly grinning puppy. No dice or charts to argue about.
- okay
BEST , in my opinion I should have added to my earlier post.
- Ed C.
Quote from: KoltarWell "BEST" would be paint pellet guns in an area with good line of sight, you silly grinning puppy. No dice or charts to argue about.
- okay BEST , in my opinion I should have added to my earlier post.
I'm just kiddin' ya, put away the bat'leth. :p
For my money, I'll go with Cyberpunk 2020's Friday Night Firefight system.
I have to say, though, I've never been really satisfied with any combat system.
Stargrunt II.
Encounter Critical. Just broken enough to be useful. Not broken too much.
Depends what you mean by 'best'. If you're after quick and easy, its Tunnels and Trolls. If you want to combine quick and easy with some more detail, then there are various ways of doing that with FUDGE. I don't really hold with close simulationist combat, so I don't really have any opinions on how to judge such systems.
Quote from: RPGPunditOk, so what's the best RPG combat system you've seen... and why do you think its the best?
RPGPundit
In order
Harnmaster
The best combination of realism and playability I seen. Has a good selection of tactical options combined with an excellent injury system that is both brutal and easy to track. You can't play with out the one page chart so if you lose it you are screwed. The good news it is a free download so replacing it is easy. Armor is a little tedious because you will want to layer and you need to add up the values for two dozen hit locations. However this is a one time thing for PCs and the current edition has a selection of premade common "suits" for GM and player use.
GURPS 4th plus GURPS Martial Arts 4th. Note that the Martial Arts means ALL martial arts not just empty hand east asian fighting styles. Everything from your basic sword and shield to the latest in early 21st century styles.
These two combined make for one of the most detailed combat system that is a damn good game that is grounded in research and actual experience. It also has cinematic options. However I STRONGLY recommend making cheat sheets for character and GMs to use to reduce book flipping. The problem isn't the rule persay is that there just so much.
GURPS Martial Arts also include expansion (optional) to the system presented in GURPS 4th. They include new manueveurs that allow Defensive Attacks and Committed Attack these allow fighters to pick a combination of attack power and defense in a more continous spectrum from All out to defense to All out Attack.
Feints haves been extended to allow for ruses (where you trick your opponent) and beats (where you literally try to beat their weapon or shield out of the way of your attack).
There are Injury rules for hits that do damage of more than half Health. Somewhat similar to D20's Massive Damage but more nasty and detailed.
Plus dozens of techniques for doing different thing with your hands and your weapons ranging from the realistic to crazy ass wuxia stuff.
Finally a honorable mention to Hero System
Enjoy
Rob Conley
Rolemaster, easily. I'll echo what previous folks said about flexibility--plus, once your characters are actually rolled up, it runs really smooth, and there's always this air of lethality and unpredictability in combat, as well there should be. Yeah, 99 times out of 100, the dark knight is going to slaughter the pissboy with the pitchfork, but every once in a great while, that pissboy can get lucky...
Quote from: SettembriniFuck, Jim, you can´t answer the question!
It was not a real question!
He didn´t say,...ahh forget it, just merrily babble all you want.
:rolleyes:
Ummm... wtf?
Sett is quite right.
[Though, perhaps, Settembrini, your way of making your point was needlessly brusque. If you could extend a modicum of consideration when expressing yourself, I'm sure the site will be all the better for it.]
WFRP 1st ed. always worked fine for me. our group loves the criticals. location system is pretty easy.
Quote from: estarIn order
Harnmaster
The best combination of realism and playability I seen. Has a good selection of tactical options combined with an excellent injury system that is both brutal and easy to track. You can't play with out the one page chart so if you lose it you are screwed. The good news it is a free download so replacing it is easy. Armor is a little tedious because you will want to layer and you need to add up the values for two dozen hit locations. However this is a one time thing for PCs and the current edition has a selection of premade common "suits" for GM and player use.
QFT.
To play or to GM?
As a GM... Brown Box D&D. Quick, simple, and the one-minute combat round is so abstract that you can imagine combat as looking like anything you want.
To play... old Fantasy Hero. I loved the way you could shift around skill levels to change the way your character fought.
GURPS.
Active defenses, armor is DR, shock, hit location, crippling, some of the best automatic fire rules, weapons that do different types of damage and a couple different levels of combat so you can dial up or down the detail.
I know I'm a bit biased (heh) but I'm really, REALLY, pleased with the combat system for my game.
It's fast, even for groups, nicely simulates the differences between dueling and a chaotic melee, allows for group tactics like a phalanx, shield wall, or line of pikes, and gives individual tactics for using shields and weaponry.
And you get to roll funny dice. Because funny dice are FUN. :haw:
I've just been asked to do another (big) contract outside of the world of game design, but I'm going to do everything I can to keep the game production on schedule and have it available by next summer! :)
Like Stuart, I'd have to say my own homebrew system of course, it has the pefect balance of options and speed of play for me.
But of commercial systems I like TFT the best when operating in the balanced region of character power. I've never actually played a GURPS combat, but from what I've read and knowing the lineage I'd probaly choose that for the best commercial system still being published.
Synergy, from Blue Planet. It has the most round, sensible and complete explanation of how is implemented a damage syste, that I have found. Of course, is gritty as hell.
Seconding that, RuneQuest III - because is the best RPG ever.
For duels with loads of tactics, TRoS wins hands-down (but looses as soon as there are more than two combatants at once).
More generally evaluated, I don't have a single combat system that I would recommend about everything else, though CP2020 has a bit a special place with its stun and death checks and the massive encouragement to deplete your complete magazine in a single action.
Im going to vote Tunnels and Trolls.
A very simple combat system in which is was easy to gauge your success at the beginning of a fight as to whether you were going to win or lose.
I believe the pundit has lifted some of their ideas in combining attacks?
I'll throw out Stormbringer 1st ed.
1. Easy to grasp - % to hit.
2. Active defense - % to parry or dodge.
3. Deadly - Crit at 10% of to hit chance or Major Wound when lost 1/2 or more of HP in one blow.
4. Armor protects - absorbs random amount of damage to simulate hit locations.
Every Stormbringer combat I've ever fought has been quick and deadly.
Having said the above, my friend absolutely detested his new MRQ campaign because combats dragged on when the %s to hit and parry/dodge were up around 90%+. I have never experienced this issue.
A close second is Savage Worlds. The combat system in this game allowed my characters to attempt heroic and cinematic actions with flair. It "felt" heroic and fun.
Quote from: LawbagIm going to vote Tunnels and Trolls.
A very simple combat system in which is was easy to gauge your success at the beginning of a fight as to whether you were going to win or lose.
Is the with or without the "Spite" option? (A roll of 6 always damages the opponent win or lose.)
=
Quote from: XantherLike Stuart, I'd have to say my own homebrew system of course, it has the pefect balance of options and speed of play for me.
Well, see that's the thing with combat systems is that so much of it comes down to personal experience and comfort level. For example, I'd started with Palladium, so I'm much more comfortable with that, and could likely run it faster than a newer system that might be more streamlined. Familiarity plays such a big part, and then there's systems you just "get". I know a lot of people don't like T20's combat system, but I do--it just works for me. Rolemaster and Dark Matter's Epic RPG are the same way--I looked at it, grokked it, and didn't look back.
The best combat system? No such thing.
Combat systems I prefer? Ones where I don't:
a) need miniatures or counters to indicate my position.
b) need tables, a slide rule, and calculator.
c) need to roll 37 times to see if I hit, 38 times to see how much damage I do, and 39 times to see if I block/dodge.
I'm too old to screw around with a system that draws out combat, where a three second action becomes a three hour tour.
My preference lies with WFRP 2nd ed. Just enough crunch to make things go squishy in fun ways and not so many rules that it bogs down into combat mode and leaves the story aspect behind. Plus I don't need RoleMaster's seperate book of crit tables 2 pages are plenty.
Too many variables to give a single answer.
nWoD has a very quick and simple combat system which appeals in those games but does nothing for me if I'm in the mood to pull out a battlemap and start counting 5' steps. Exalted scratches a tactical itch if I want to be a little more freeform.
GURPS is fantastic if I feel like doing something gritty and dangerous where a single lucky hit can end a character's career, but Amber is good if I want to allow players the chance to stretch their creative legs and really make use of tactics and the environment without having to consider every minute variable.
Quote from: XantherBut of commercial systems I like TFT the best when operating in the balanced region of character power. I've never actually played a GURPS combat, but from what I've read and knowing the lineage I'd probaly choose that for the best commercial system still being published.
This is pretty much how I feel. I haven't played enough GURPS to say, but I love the TFT core, and would like to adapt some enhancements from GURPS to it--such as active defenses and a more sophisticated relationship between strength, weapon choice, and damage.
I'm surprised at the love for Rolemaster. I consider that one of the worst combat systems. Very tedious and still heavy on the luck.
I think D&D 3.5 is one of the best. It accomplishes most of what it wants to. Players have quite a few options to try both is setting up the character for combat and within the combat. It's not perfect though and a single round can take a long time with lots of opponents/magic/levels.
Most of the BRP variations (CoC, Runequest, etc) are good. Quick, moderately simple, fairly lethal, some choices for the players.
I've been running some stuff similar to or derived from Risus. It works well for light games where realistic combat is not the focus. It's flexible enough that you players can make stuff up without breaking the system.
Quote from: LawbagIm going to vote Tunnels and Trolls....I believe the pundit has lifted some of their ideas in combining attacks?
Honestly, I think he improved on it. T&T seemed dull to me the little I played it as there wasn't much beyond dice rolling unless spells were involved. FtA has the group combat dynamic but has more flexibility and more to do beside looking through a hundred weapons for the best choice for your stats.
Quote from: ImperatorSynergy, from Blue Planet. It has the most round, sensible and complete explanation of how is implemented a damage syste, that I have found. Of course, is gritty as hell.
Seconding that, RuneQuest III - because is the best RPG ever.
I have to agree with Synergy, although I prefer SilCore most of the time. At their base the two systems are pretty similar - no hit locations, all damage can be lethal, damage done is based on how well you hit, die pools that make skilled characters more reliable. Interlock used to be my favorite system, but I've discovered over the years I'm not fond of resolution systems that don't have a curve somewhere in the probabilities.
Looking back over all the games I've played and run...I'd have to say Torg. It's not without its problems, but it was hands down the most enjoyable and fun combat system we ever used. Everyone got excited about it, and were totally into using their cards. The fights were fun, and also tended to produce the most combat-related roleplaying (without it being forced, such as in many systems where you have to "graphically describe" stunts.)
I'll also toss in an honorable mention for HarnMaster, for the reasons given above.
MERP and Rollmaster have always been a blast too play, even though you could get away with calling it Mathmaster. :P Nothing like their crit tables.
Shadowrun 4e and nWoD are ok systems for combat, at least it's "roll one set of dice, defend with another, compare results" sorta simplicity.
Quote from: RPGPunditOk, so what's the best RPG combat system you've seen... and why do you think its the best?
Fudge.
- Skill level is immensely important in determining the result of combat.
- Plain English results for combat skill rolls.
- Simultaneous combat rolls and damaged based on degree of success minimizes the die rolling.
- Excellent easy-to-use wound track instead of hit points.
- No min-maxing of weapon and armor choices is necessary.
- Combat can be run very quickly.
I haven't satisfied with any system although the levels varied. I want a simple but robust system for that. With that said, I liked many of the combat systems for various reasons.
Rolemaster: Cool things happened to both sides with it. I remember when a cold blast made my friend's character lose his nose for instance. MERP was the lighter version of course.
I am bit suprised more people haven't mentioned D&D (any version) or FTA! D&D is okay in its basic application but I get lost in all of the options now. I haven't played FTA!
Funny enough, I remember Price of Freedom from West End Games back in the 80s having a fairly nice system. Roll under your skill with a d20 and roll again depending on your weapon. It had a chart which told you if the person was stunned, lightly wounded, heavily wounded, unconscious or dead. Combat would have been even more deadly if not for the inclusion of hero points. I also remember everything happening at once. In other words, everyone got at least one action in a combat round even they were dead with the first shot.
Just to clarify, the original point of the thread was just to ask what people's own personal favourite was, and why it was the favourite to them; not to find some kind of an "objective" best combat system.
As for why more people haven't mentioned FtA!, I think the fact is that relatively few people have gotten around to buying the game, much less actually playing it yet. I'm hoping (and have every reason to believe) that this will slowly change.
RPGPundit
Hero System is my favourite Combat System, because it can be as complicated as the GM wishes or as simple as the GM wishes. Once the GM and Players have an understanding of the Rules there is nothing that is impossible.
Its all in the imagination. The rules provide guidelines to explore them. The Dice add the random factors in success, failure, and effect. The first time your Players discover Knockback it they rarely turn back.
QM
I'm rather fond of Savage Worlds' combat system. It's fast and light and can handle large battles with swags of foes. It has a few tactical options, without getting overly complex. Only downside, IMHO, is that it is a bit too cinematic for my tastes. But perfect if over-the-top action is your bag.
My love of full-on Rolemaster is an on-again, off-again thing, but slimmed down to MERP I agree that's a rockin' good time.
ancient gamer: I'm pretty sure that Price of Freedom was a Greg Costikyan design. He may be a curmudgeon, but he knows how to write a game mechanic. I'm not surprised that PoF does its own thing and does it well.
T&T takes initiative out of the equation in an interesting way. It offers just enough resource management and options for odd manuevers to stay interesting over time.
Hero gives you a great deal of verisimilitude and a nice division between stun and lethal damage. It's some time and effort, But it pays off.
Savage Worlds makes large-scale skirmishes easy. They typically run faster than a wargame, yet are very satisfying for what they do.
I like Burning Wheel's scripted combat. I like a mechanic requiring you to commit to a course of action a bit ahead of time.
If a game wants to be abstract in combat, I like it when they just let everything be abstract, fun, and engaging. Otherwise, I want them to strive to seem as realistic as they can, in their own way. I don't like systems that are specific and concrete about some things, then abstract about others.It breaks my suspension of disbelief.
Quote from: SettembriniFuck, Jim, you can´t answer the question!
It was not a real question!
He didn´t say,...ahh forget it, just merrily babble all you want.
:rolleyes:
As James said - what the fuck? Why can't the question be answered? It's about one's subjective opinion. The fact that there is no way that there is an objectively "best" combat system makes the subjectivity of the question and answers pretty self-evident.
Okay, deep breath, GURPS has a better combat system than Rolemaster, but it's easier to teach Rolemaster to a new player than GURPS because GURPS has a rule for everything and Rolemaster has a chart for everything, but the charts all work the same way.
It's Rolemaster's magic and character creation (RMSS in particular) that I love.
since this is a purely subjective discussion, here's the other favorite:
tweaked megatraveller. instead of damage being straight points (e.g., gauss rifle = 4), it becomes #d6 damage, modified as normal (by degree of success and penetration). i added the hit locations from mechwarrior 1e for variety. hit points are determined by averaging str and end (round up), which becomes the same as the "body" score in MW.
my crew absolutely loved firefights with it. as soon as you defeat armor (pen vs. armor rating), the damage just gets ridiculous, with limbs getting blown off, heads vaporized, etc. over-the-top levels of carnage, especially when you use the PGMP & FGMPs.
mechanically it's a bit clunky, but we've been using it for so long (almost 20 years? whoa) it's become second nature. :D
I like Unknown Armies the best:
1. Fistfights are long and brutal, Gunfights are short and DEADLY!
2. It's psychologically damaging (or hardening if you're lucky!).
But I like a lot of others too!
D&D/D20 is great, easy to understand with lots of combat options.
WoD is both brutal and cinematic, and much quicker than oWoD
I like Palladium Combat too, every character class seems to have it's own unique strategies to win, which I enjoy a lot!
Quote from: ColonelHardissonAs James said - what the fuck? Why can't the question be answered? It's about one's subjective opinion. The fact that there is no way that there is an objectively "best" combat system makes the subjectivity of the question and answers pretty self-evident.
Don't fret it. Those of us that can think for ourselves knew it was blatantly obvious from the "explain yourself" part of the question that the criteria was "whatever the hell you want your criteria to be, but be sure to tell us what it was."
Or maybe it's the language barrier and not some need to be led by the nose that stopped him from realizing what seemed perfectly clear.