Which system do you like best for combat and why?
Oddly enough 5e's system works fairly well. I like the AC as a to-hit number system. Everything seems to flow along alot smoother.
For older games. I loved Star Frontiers system, percentile dice and pretty darn straightforward. Roll to hit vs skill with modifiers. About as straightforward as it gets. Oh, and lasers with damage sliders.
Marvel FASERIP. Percentile dice are easy to roll, the color chart is simple to use, and the possible effects (stun, slam, grandslam) work great for what it does.
My top one would be The One Ring. I like its use of assymetrical design to create simple and meaningful choices, without the need to heavy resource management or battlemap. It also does a good job of encouraging the players to treat combat as a group affair.
I also really like Dungeon World. Its lack of initiative sees action flow quickly and fluidly, whilst its "Yes but" weighted dice system snowballs the danger effortlessly.
GURPS
I love the detail and realism there.
B/X
Icons
I love the vague abstractions.
Interlock (http://datafortress2020.com/InterlockUnlimited.html)(used in Cyberpunk) is well regarded I think.
I don't want to be "that guy" in the RPG discussion, but in my view it isn't so much 'best combat system' as 'best system of combat for the emulation of the material presented in the RPG'. I've never seen a RPG combat system that was intrinsically best for RPGs, but I have seen the best possible system for what the RPG is trying to accomplish, and that's "King Arthur Pendragon". It perfectly emulates heavily armoured knights bashing the stuffing out of each other with broadswords. I doubt it would well emulate any other genre as well.
//Panjumanju
Dark Heresy and any other Warhammer 40K rpg. Then again combat has to be their thing. Stars Without Numbers and DnD are pretty good as well. Just make it short, sweet, and simple.
The worst I had was with the storyteller system. Especially with Exalted and Scion. I am sorry, but ticks are worst than initiative. I rather wait for my turn in a proper order than deal with the screw up mess that is the tick wheel. Secondly and by far the worst they take forever to get a turn done.
I would say storytelling system would come second, but it has a excuse. The system is straight forward and simple. It is the players that decide to take forever to do that is the problem. Then again some of those players came from years of dealing with the storyteller system so they assume the more time they take the better they are. Which I might add is pretty damn selfish and no one wants to read your paragraph long post in how you hit a vampire with a baseball bat.
Quote from: Snowman0147;805374The worst I had was with the storyteller system. Especially with Exalted and Scion. I am sorry, but ticks are worst than initiative.
I loved the concept of Scion but fuck if the mechanics weren't terrible.
Mongoose Traveller. Easy to do combat in real-time pretty much.
Hero System's combat engine can be tuned for simple or as complex as you want. A group can get as much out of it as they are willing to put into it.
I guess it depends on what your looking for out of a game. I myself, like a couple different systems. For the realistic end, if I'm in that mood would be T2K 2ed. If I'm wanting more abstract, and easy. I think its really hard to beat one of the various D&D editions. Its just really intuitive to me. Probably due to lots of experience and history with it.
Just for tactical combat, GURPS is my go to system. The detail of meaningful choices both offensively and defensively and the importance of timing and distance really help the system stand out.
It is also great that a certain level of realism can be emulated if you want it but it isn't required to have great and exciting combats anyway.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;805359Which system do you like best for combat and why?
Harnmaster followed by GURPS.
Harnmaster combat comes off feeling gritty and realistic while remaining quick and playable due to the frontloaded character sheet and ingenious design of the combat card.
GURPS because it is well designed. It only issue is that there are many options to choose from due to it goal of covering many different types of settings and genres. However when you pick a set of options the result is not that complex.
I think 5e deserves an honorable mention for adding just enough options to have some tactical complexity but no were near as overwhelming as 3rd or 4th edition.
HarnMaster or Gurps. HarnMaster has hands down the best way to handle injuries in any RPG and is fairly intuitive. There are however, not too many tactical options involved; that's both good and bad - it makes the whole system more accesible, but it also limits what you can actually do. So HarnMaster is a great game to play with those fellow players who aren't into complex rules and just want to roll the dice and hit people. There are simpler games, but those are usually lacking substance or are so abstract that they are basically arbitrary in their representation of the events in the game.
Gurps is almost the exact opposite - it offers you more options than you could ever use, but due to a very streamlined and - most importantly - intuitive design, their application is not particularly challenging, and the resulting depth is great. Gurps is a great game if you play with more rules-adaptable players who appreciates the complexity of the game and who can use it well. I think Gurps has the better rules for combat, but I usually enjoy HarnMaster a bit more (especially if you add a little more options to the game).
Runequest for me. I like the place combat takes in the game, being a decent mix of fast and detailed and deadly... discouraging casual violence.
I like GURPS as well.
Riddle of Steel. The combat system for RoS got a lot of press back when it came out, and rightly so. I used to run Gladiator death matches using the RoS game system as part of my board game group. In one game it came down to two disarmed, injured gladiators wrestling over a sword, throwing elbows and biting as they struggled to get a hold of the weapon. Finally exhaustion set in and the weaker gladiator was overpowered and run through. At every round we were on the edge of our seats, struggling to out-think the other player.
As an actual RPG system it's terrible. That level of investment isn't maintainable in long term play with every potential combatant. When the stakes are as high as they are in moral combat, the last thing a player wants to feel is stressful exhaustion.
1. Hackmaster 5e. Gritty detail, danger, count-up initiative system that flows AWESOMELY, actions rated in seconds, people move each turn when they want, conflict occurs when combatants meet, very tactical. It's really superb. The players need to have some eye towards tactics or they die like inexperienced bystanders... Also, it's fun to GM.
2. HARP. I like the one roll look-up on critical table thing. The tables offer great ideas for description. Also, bleeding, stun and actual wounds that give penalties. My first run was done wrong, so I'm looking forward to another run with a better understanding of it.
3. Legend/RuneQuest 6. Tactical without overdoing the system-bits. Combat maneuvers are a great (you have to hound your players the first couple session until the grok it. :-). The game does a great job of feeling gritty without being cumbersome. Also, the game in general remains one of the easiest to learn, so it's a life-saver with a group of newbies.
The Fantasy Trip: We started playing Melee and Wizard when the combat game was all there was to it, and had plenty of fun. Otherwise, I'm not in the habit of considering combat resolution apart from the game as a whole.
Quote from: Panjumanju;805373I don't want to be "that guy" in the RPG discussion, but in my view it isn't so much 'best combat system' as 'best system of combat for the emulation of the material presented in the RPG'.
I'm with you on this.
I mean I loves me some Rolemaster combat, but I wouldn't want every game to have such detailed and gritty systems.
There's definitely no such thing as the "best combat system", only systems that match their games (and our preferences) to differing degrees.
For me, right now? Runequest 6e strikes a fantastic balance between speed and detail.
I'm a sucker for Palladium, I dig the way they do hand-to-hand combat, but they really have to get their shit together on the autofire rules.
Rolemaster. I'm running it right now and it's been really fun, I wasn't sure how well the players would take to it but they've enjoyed it as well. They've said it feels dangerous, so that you want to avoid/outsmart fights when you can, but if one happens the thing about dividing OB and DB makes it feel more tactical and engaging.
I don't always want a game with a combat system but when I do RM seems like just the job. I'm happy enough with AD&D as well.
Quote from: trechriron;8054541. Hackmaster 5e. Gritty detail, danger, count-up initiative system that flows AWESOMELY, actions rated in seconds, people move each turn when they want, conflict occurs when combatants meet, very tactical. It's really superb. The players need to have some eye towards tactics or they die like inexperienced bystanders... Also, it's fun to GM.
I give Hackmaster 5e a major thumbs up due to how they eliminated rounds of combat. If I could combine that with how Harnmaster handles damage that would be an awesome combat system.
Depends what I'm after.
For fast-playing fantasty, my go-to remains TSR D&D. For more detail, my go-to is some form of BRP (Gold Book, Runequest, et cetera).
Melee/Wizard (or, more generally, The Fantasy Trip) is my sweet-spot for nearly any genre. It is as tactical and nuanced as GURPS but as quick-playing and 'loose' as D&D or Tunnels and Trolls (at least once you know how to play). Whatever it might look like in an academic read-through, at the table this is the funnest combat system I know. Second best: Flashing Blades.
Quote from: Larsdangly;805567Flashing Blades.
Yeah, that's a good one, too. Pretty much perfect for that genre.
First one that leaps to mind is Palladium, in particular Teenage Mutant Turtle Ninjas and/or Ninjas and Superspies. You have the greater chance of hitting, which makes total sense if you've ever actually been in a fight, plus the defender gets to roll for an active defense which makes the combat feel more interact than just one guy rolling to hit and being dynamic and the other guy feeling like he's just standing ther static and uninvolved in the outcome. It's pretty cool. I would love some other games a lot better if the fights felt as involving as Palladium's, although I gather more dice-rolling it out of vogue these days.
Haven't played GURPS or Superworld of late but I seem to recall they also had block/parry type rolls as well.
So much better than D&D type "I hit Armor Class 5," but I've never really liked much about D&D aside from the fact that it led to RPGs and a plethora of games I love.
Quote from: Panjumanju;805373I don't want to be "that guy" in the RPG discussion, but in my view it isn't so much 'best combat system' as 'best system of combat for the emulation of the material presented in the RPG'. I've never seen a RPG combat system that was intrinsically best for RPGs, but I have seen the best possible system for what the RPG is trying to accomplish, and that's "King Arthur Pendragon". It perfectly emulates heavily armoured knights bashing the stuffing out of each other with broadswords. I doubt it would well emulate any other genre as well.
//Panjumanju
I can dig it. Pendragon has pretty much the right rules for everything in its setting, seems like.
Runequest 6: flows well, cinematic but has consequences
Rolemaster: exciting and believe it or not, fast once everyone is organised
The Fantasy Trip: simple with nice tactical element
Hero: great for occasional big boss fights that take an hour or more, with loads of different character powers, terrain effects etc.
Quote from: estar;805500I give Hackmaster 5e a major thumbs up due to how they eliminated rounds of combat. If I could combine that with how Harnmaster handles damage that would be an awesome combat system.
Hackmaster has some cool bits but its really annoying that weapon speed isn't affected by strength.
Ahnold should be quicker with that axe than scrawny arms Rob Lowe.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;805712Hackmaster has some cool bits but its really annoying that weapon speed isn't affected by strength.
Ahnold should be quicker with that axe than screawny arms Rob Lowe.
Except that when you watch Ahnold playing Conan he is pretty damn slow with his sword moves. As for Rob Lowe - which of the many Rob Lowes did you mean?
Quote from: The_Shadow;805674Runequest 6: flows well, cinematic but has consequences
Rolemaster: exciting and believe it or not, fast once everyone is organised
The Fantasy Trip: simple with nice tactical element
Hero: great for occasional big boss fights that take an hour or more, with loads of different character powers, terrain effects etc.
I've been waiting for 20 years for someone to figure out how to do a digitally enabled version of Rolemaster. So much of the time and effort in making it go is organizing the tables, all of which are just deterministic outcomes from a die roll. It would be so straightforward to make an app or browser application or something that does it all with a click. One of the few games that would really benefit from this.
Quote from: Bren;805718Except that when you watch Ahnold playing Conan he is pretty damn slow with his sword moves. As for Rob Lowe - which of the many Rob Lowes did you mean?
Pretty sure he means the Rob Lowe TV commercial where they stick his head on a scrawny-armed body. No idea what the product was.
Quote from: Bren;805718Except that when you watch Ahnold playing Conan he is pretty damn slow with his sword moves. As for Rob Lowe - which of the many Rob Lowes did you mean?
Well you would be too swinging an 8 pound hunk of steel much heavier than period weapons.
There is only ONE scrawny arms Rob Lowe- and he has cable. :p
Quote from: Exploderwizard;805738Well you would be too swinging an 8 pound hunk of steel much heavier than period weapons.
There is only ONE scrawny arms Rob Lowe- and he has cable. :p
Actually he Doesn't is the problem. Isn't it some cable advert?
Edit: never mind, it's anti-cable and you were right. Must be poorly scripted ad if I can't eem remember what the product is.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;805738Well you would be too swinging an 8 pound hunk of steel much heavier than period weapons.
I think Ahnold's problem was his pump-you up weight lifter big muscles don't require or enable fast sword swinging.
To your original issue, are there no STR requirements for weapons in Hackmaster?
Quote from: Bren;805742I think Ahnold's problem was his pump-you up weight lifter big muscles don't require or enable fast sword swinging.
To your original issue, are there no STR requirements for weapons in Hackmaster?
There are str requirements but exceeding them grants nothing in recovery times which are WAY too long to begin with.
Show me a man that requires 13 seconds of ready time between axe swings and I'll show you a dead man.
Quote from: Skywalker;805364My top one would be The One Ring. I like its use of assymetrical design to create simple and meaningful choices, without the need to heavy resource management or battlemap. It also does a good job of encouraging the players to treat combat as a group affair.
One Ring looked good on paper, but when I tried it, like most systems that attempt to replace ranges and distance, it ends being more trouble then it's worth, although I will say of all the "abstracted range/distance/rank/whatever category type systems" I disliked it the least.
Quote from: Skywalker;805364I also really like Dungeon World. Its lack of initiative sees action flow quickly and fluidly, whilst its "Yes but" weighted dice system snowballs the danger effortlessly.
True, the
story flows like a fine wine. ;)
Rolemaster runs surprisingly fast once you get used to it, yes with all the tables, it still runs fast, and you can't beat the crits.
My players are getting massively hooked on RQ6. After one fight, a player said "I felt like a dick tripping the guy and not letting him get up, and attacking the same leg or arm whenever I could." Another player said "So you did everything you could to kill the other guy while making sure he didn't kill you, welcome to combat." The other player was a marine. :D It doesn't feel like "Heroic Fantasy" it feels bloody and dirty and desperate and kinda like this (YouTube). (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGrk8nolRJU)
Shadowrun does a great job I think of mixing firearms, melee, magic and miniguns in the same system. With exploding D6's the system breaks down when the TN's get too high, but until you get the "Billion-Dollar Troll", it's awesome.
I don't think I've played a system that feels more like the various D&D novels then 5e. Guys with Dexterity are deadly now, like most systems pretend are, but never manage to be.
As said earlier, Pendragon is near perfect for what it is emulating.
Heh, props to EW for knowing the weight of the Atlantean Sword prop. I swear to god, Albion Armorer's whole lineup will be among my first post-lottery orders.
Not a lot of consencus right now. Everyone mentions something else. Well, keep it coming folks!
Quote from: Larsdangly;805720I've been waiting for 20 years for someone to figure out how to do a digitally enabled version of Rolemaster. So much of the time and effort in making it go is organizing the tables, all of which are just deterministic outcomes from a die roll. It would be so straightforward to make an app or browser application or something that does it all with a click. One of the few games that would really benefit from this.
Straightforward, yes (the first one I wrote was on my ZX Spectrum back in the '80s).
But it's surprisingly anticlimactic. The tactile feel of rolling the dice and the anticipation of looking up the roll on a table or two to find out what it did are a big part of the feel of the system.
Pressing a button and being given a result by a computer might be quicker, but it just doesn't feel the same...
The correct answer, is of course, RuneQuest 6. Mind I also liked Warhammer 1st Edition with its critical hit charts (they remain brilliantly discriptive).
Quote from: jan paparazzi;805359Which system do you like best for combat and why?
For Fantasy: many editions of RuneQuest. 2nd, 3rd, MRQ2, RQ6. I prefer the grittier simulation - hit locations, severed limbs and beheadings, strike ranks.
For everything else: I'm fine with more abstraction when it comes to Scifi, and (Cthulhian) Horror. CoC6e. Classic Traveller.
I ended up ditching the game for other reasons, but I thought Warhammer 2E had a cool combat system, with a simple and elegant way to strike different body parts and score crippling blows/critical hits
Quote from: jan paparazzi;805747Not a lot of consencus right now. Everyone mentions something else. Well, keep it coming folks!
I doubt thats going to happen as there are so many different systems and everyone is going to have a favorite for this or that reason.
Another interesting system was that in Lace & Steel. Interesting flow to combat that I felt captured the swashbuckling feel of the setting.
Well, for scifi I'll put a second vote in for Mongoose Traveller. I don't know how well it would hold up as a general system, but I do like the fact that players can trade off initiative and attack bonus to try not to die without quite resorting to a tick system.
Heroic fantasy I'm sold on 5th edition D&D, I can go sorta gritty for crits and 0 hp with existing rules, which is nice. Plus it's damn simple. But if I was going to go with a real blood and guts, swords and sorcery type game I may well be checking out hackmaster from the response in this thread.
Like people say, it's all about what you're looking for. And even the systems I like don't get out without being futzed with.
The Synergy system from Blue Planet v2.0 (FFG) taught my players to respect combat. They learned that combat was deadly, not something to do for fun. They learned that if they weren't taking the enemy by surprise, they were doing it wrong. They learned that if they cleared a room before their enemy could fire a shot, they were doing it right. They learned that recovering from a gunshot wound could take weeks or months.
What did I learn?
I learned that you can run an exciting combat using a rules light/medium system with only three d10's in a matter of minutes. That one damage roll can (and should!) tell me in a matter of seconds if a character is unscathed, wounded, unconscious, or dead. And that rules for grappling, autofire, or any other special case should not be more than a paragraph long.
I really should run that game again sometime....