Quote from: Spinachcat;650845So the edition progression of chargen is...

0e/BX = Pick Race or Class
1e = Pick Race + Class
2e = Pick Race + Class (+ Kit)
3e= Pick Race + Class + Feats + Prestige Class
4e = Pick Race + Class + Feats + Paragon Class + Epic Class
5e = Pick Race + Class + Background + Specialty
OR Pick Race + Class + Custom Background + Custom Specialty

I don't need 5e's chargen complexity, but I see its value as a half-measure trying to please everyone. The build guys can either crunch the value of combos or just min/max via the custom approach and then bitch and moan at the table when other players just choose options they like.

Keep in mind that the Specialty choice in 5E means you choose from about 10 options and then never have to pick a feat again, while the Feats choice in 3E and 4E means you choose from dozens of feats at start, and then choose from dozens again every couple levels (or even every level).

To ask a relevant question to Sacrosanct: Have you played with divergent edition chargen styles at the same table already? Have you played 1e style simplicity next to full 3e chargen and ran the characters together? Switching from skills to ability checks, et al, have players felt little difference?

Quote from: Opaopajr;650909To ask a relevant question to Sacrosanct: Have you played with divergent edition chargen styles at the same table already? Have you played 1e style simplicity next to full 3e chargen and ran the characters together? Switching from skills to ability checks, et al, have players felt little difference?

My Wed night group is sort of like this.  One fella is playing a pretty vanilla dwarven fighter that is more like the basic rules.  I am playing a halfling fighter skulker, so more the standard version.  But I'm going with the prepackaged skulker specialty and am not picking and choosing my feats.  One of the other players is playing a magic user.  I don't know all of the details of his character, but I'm pretty sure he's done a lot more customization on his own in regards to what feats and skills he has (i.e., his own custom background and specialty).  We haven't mixed skills to ability checks; every character has skills.  However, it should be noted that when attempting something you're not skilled in, it's pretty much just an ability check.  The only difference is that if you are skilled, you get a d6 skill die result to add to that.  So it's really easy to just ignore skills altogether if you want.  Just ignore the skill die and it's same-same as a basic ability check.

Up to this point, we haven't noticed any issues that wouldn't come up in any other version anyway.  I certainly don't feel underpowered compared to the guy who fully customized his magic user.

Quote from: Opaopajr;650909To ask a relevant question to Sacrosanct: Have you played with divergent edition chargen styles at the same table already? Have you played 1e style simplicity next to full 3e chargen and ran the characters together? Switching from skills to ability checks, et al, have players felt little difference?

Kind of related,  I entered a 3.x/PF game with a vanilla Thief modelled on how I would've played in pre-3E. I was outclassed and out gunned mainly because I was not familiar with or bothered about system mastery and pushing the character class choices to their maximum.

The disparity in approaches meant that the fun/not fun equation was not in my favour. Though to be fair, the GMs expectations where to have a maxed out group. Therefore my play style was not convergent with the game as it progressed.

Something to consider: Be all on the same page.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;648846I was half joking.  Chill.  But I do believe the use of the term "feats" is problematic for two reasons:

1. It reminds people of 3e, which everyone but fans of 3e hates
2. They don't really work like in 3e, so it lends to confusion.

(1.) 3.x (3.0/3/5/Pathfinder/etc.) is still the most popular type of rpg out there today (even now), hence your statement makes no sense.
(2.) 3.x feats do not work in only one way, hence your statement leads to even more confusion.

Quote from: Haffrung;648881The problem is hanging onto the 3-18 attribute values that have no game effect, instead of using them to derive a modifier at char gen and then ditching them. The +1 stat could become a +1 modifier and actually mean something.

The 3d6 attribute values do have a game effect. In AD&D, your ability scores determined your ability to access various character classes, and they also determined what level spell you could cast, how many languages you knew, and more. There are even certain monsters that drain ability scores, so yes....it's relevant.

In 3.x, you'll often need an odd-numbered attribute score to qualify for a feat. Furthermore, you can suffer ability damage and ability drain from monsters and poison and whatnot, so having a 13 Constitution is definitely better than having a 12 Constitution.

Not only that, but your mental ability scores determine what level spells you can cast. That means that it's better for the Wizard to have a 17 Intelligence, rather than a 16 Intelligence....even though they provide the same number of skill bonuses and skill points.

Ability scores are a resource, just like hit points...though people often forget it. :pundit:

Of course, most of these things are not currently included in 5e. There is no ability damage, no requirement to cast spells and of course no requirement for taking a class.

Of course, they could rearrange other benefits to the odd levels. Gain languages, bonus AC and attunement slots at odd levels. Make extra HP like carrying capacity, so the whole stat contributes. And do something with wisdom...

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;650922(1.) 3.x (3.0/3/5/Pathfinder/etc.) is still the most popular type of rpg out there today (even now), hence your statement makes no sense.

How so?  Granted, 'hate' was a bit of a strong word, but it makes perfect sense that people who don't want to play 3.e/PF don't like, and the ones who do, do.  How popular it is doesn't change the fact that people that don't play it and play something else do so for a reason.  Most likely because they don't like it as much as what they are playing instead.  The Lakers are one of the most popular NBA teams, but I can tell you that most people who are not fans of the Lakers range from dislike to outright loathing of them.

Quote(2.) 3.x feats do not work in only one way, hence your statement leads to even more confusion.

If my statement said that feats only work one way, then maybe you'd have a point.  But I didn't, and you don't.  I said they don't work like in 3e, which is true.

I'm not generally a huge fan of Feats myself, but the overall list seems manageable currently.  Further, you can drop the optional ones, and simply use the chain provided by specialities.  In any case, characters won't have an inordinate amount of them, if they follow the last packet.  What was it, 3 Feats by level 10 or something, plus 3 from a speciality?  (trying to recall).  And, of course, you can play completely without them if you want.