Can anyone comment on BESM? It got recommended on another thread. From the one review I found for 3rd it looked pretty cool as a generic system when the characters have powers. The review did note that there's no bestiary for it.
I had the first two editions, then White Wolf buried the third as fast as they could, so the odds of getting a legal hardcopy is nigh impossible now.
Drive through rpg has print on demand for the 3rd edition along w/ pdf
Quote from: PencilBoy99;900081Drive through rpg has print on demand for the 3rd edition along w/ pdf
They still have it? Good to know. I was told that it was removed from printing (both electronic and hard copy.)
Quote from: PencilBoy99;900071Can anyone comment on BESM? It got recommended on another thread. From the one review I found for 3rd it looked pretty cool as a generic system when the characters have powers. The review did note that there's no bestiary for it.
BESM 2nd edition was my got-to game for about 3 years. Its a solid system that can handle any variety of genres or genre-combos as one is likely to find in anime, has a light, upbeat flavour to it that suits the source material well, and is a snap for players to pick up. This is not an "anime" gameinsofar as the system forces any tropes onto you, rather its a traditional system of the 90s (Atrributes, skills, and an encyclopedia of merits/flaws, with a roll vs target number universal task resolution), streamlined quite a bit in comparison to WoD or Unisystem, that provides framework and advice for anime-flavour games. Whether this is a plus or minus depends on individual taste, but I prefer this over a system trying to produce genre tropes mechanically.
The supplements are, with only a few exceptions, exemplary, and to this day I hold the Tenchi Myuo RPG & Sourcebook to be the absolute pinnacle of an existing media series translated into an RPG.
Never saw the 3rd edition. By that point my tastes in games had changed a bit and I was off my BESM kick.
In general, BESM 2e is considered superior to BESM 3e for everything except physical appearance. BESM 3e is a bit of a mess mechanically with little or no guidance on how to utilise the rules to achieve the effect you want.
I know a lot of people have moved from BESM to OVA (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/133493/OVA-The-Anime-RolePlaying-Game) as it has a similar and simpler system approach, with even better physical appearance.
I greatly enjoyed BESM - especially Silver Age Sentinels.
I used it for running Nightbane with a group who didn't like the Palladium system. My buddy used it for his Marvel campaign which was awesome.
I am familliar mostly with 2nd ed. Though one of my players has 1st ed.
It is an interesting Gurps sort of "be anything" system rather than one tied to a setting or genre. Despite appearances its not even ties to its anime theme. The expansion books tended to cover a theme like vehicles or fantasy, etc and covered a fairly diverse range.
One of the big selling points is that it does not bog down in mechanics like Gurps. Its more skill and trait driven. Its also easier to tailor to a setting style than Gurps overall.
I'm fond on BESM 2nd and have most (if not all) of the books for it still. (Not all of the anime reference guides, though.)
It's a pretty light and easy game to play, although IIRC the 2d6 range did cause problems with glass ninjas - people who had little chance of missing, but when they missed it was a critical failure.
I'm a huge fan of BESM, especially 1st Edition, which I own a physical copy of.
The biggest issue I ever had with BESM 1 and 2e was the subtractive mechanic. It always felt clunky and unintuitive to me.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;900254The biggest issue I ever had with BESM 1 and 2e was the subtractive mechanic. It always felt clunky and unintuitive to me.
That is one thing that 3e removes.
Take a look at Tri-Stat dX (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/368/TriStat-dX-Core-System-RolePlaying-Game?it=1), which is the free generic version of the more complicated/fiddly version of the BESM rules used for their superhero games (Silver Age Sentinels and the licensed Authority game).
Bought 2e, 3e, and Tri-stat!
Got 1st through 3rd edition, since the creator of the game lives in my home town. Of the three editions, 3rd is the best - if you'd been following the system. It solved a lot of mechanical problems (dispensing with the roll under mechanic), and came with a good setting concept in the back. It had become akin to a GURPS light by the end of its run, which is my criticism of the game. 1st was a small book you could read in a few hours, and play that same day. It was very simple, very elegant, and mechanically problematic. OVA is a better animal for anime, by far, with a much cleaner system. GURPS/Hero System are better shoebox systems. BESM really has the issue that there are just better products around to do what it did. 2nd edition felt like it was on the right track - everything in one book (it was really just a compendium and clean up of the 1st edition and supplement line). Thing is, I still like it - there are parts of the system that just feel right. I like the Tri-Stat, I like how your OV is your three stats averaged (feels very anime), and I like one-book systems. But when I'm going to run a rules-lite game nowadays, I tend to look at SW or Fate over BESM.
Sadly, I sold my copy of 3rd edition, and have regretted it since. I still have my copy of 1st edition... :)
2nd edition is the fastest with more crunch than 1st...
But for me, 3rd edition is the best. It's really an amazing Anime system that really allows you to build any type of Anime game you want, from Shonin with special fighting techniques, to Shojo where being able to cook well is the most important skill.
The cost of powers and skills come on a sliding scale based on the type of Anime genre you're going for (something that also existed in 2nd but 3rd has more tools to work with). Playing your Samurai action secret technique game? Combat Skills are expensive, but being able to cook, dance, or play an instrument is cheap. Doing a High School romance game? Well you can be the most bad ass mother fucker who ever existed... to bad it'll never actually help you in the game beyond maybe being the captain of the Kendo club... but those social skills and hobby skills are suddenly expensive and important.
It also has an awesome built in setting that's a multi-verse of different 'worlds' of Anime genres connected to by interdimensonal portals and pathways. It allows you to make a mixed group of Anime Protagonists and setting hop if you like.
As one fan of the game stated once to me.
"BESM does Gurps better than Gurps."
I tried reading Tri Stat dx a few times. I don't know what was in that book, but I couldn't get through more than a few pages... The only memory I have of it were those ad pics in the back, one of a guy in a sun chair, the other woman sitting down with a laptop- looked straight out of the cheesy ads in the back of Boy's Life.
It's too bad, I've heard much good stuff about it.
Quote from: RunningLaser;900808I tried reading Tri Stat dx a few times. I don't know what was in that book, but I couldn't get through more than a few pages... The only memory I have of it were those ad pics in the back, one of a guy in a sun chair, the other woman sitting down with a laptop- looked straight out of the cheesy ads in the back of Boy's Life.
It's too bad, I've heard much good stuff about it.
DX seemed like a good idea, but it kinda lacked something of the wonderful simplicity of the 2e engine . I remember reading the 2e rulebook and just thinking how it would be perfect for superheroes, and then was very excited for Silver Age Sentinels, but when it came out it just seemed like the magic was lost somehow.
As others have pointed out, BESM and any Tri-Stat system is a solid choice. It is easy to customize. The system is simple and easy for new players to pick up, there are many supplements available, and as far as I have seen the various editions are compatible with one another.
The system is a roll under vs Attribute + Skill with two dice (BESM uses two D6s; Ex Machina (cyberpunk Tri-Stat book)uses two D8s; there may be others out there but I am not familiar with them).
Quote from: TristramEvans;900830DX seemed like a good idea, but it kinda lacked something of the wonderful simplicity of the 2e engine . I remember reading the 2e rulebook and just thinking how it would be perfect for superheroes, and then was very excited for Silver Age Sentinels, but when it came out it just seemed like the magic was lost somehow.
Very lacking "something".
It feels too long? Like there is more there than there should be? That is the feeling I keep getting for some reason.
Quote from: Omega;900932Very lacking "something".
It feels too long? Like there is more there than there should be? That is the feeling I keep getting for some reason.
Yeah, it seemed like there was added complexity that didnt actually add anything to the game. Great history of the genre to introduce the game though, and probably the only non-Marvel/DC game where the NPCs were interesting enough to consider using.
I had a lot of fun with BESM 2nd. They had some real nice anime setting books. I ran games with Dominion Tank Police, Slayers and Tenchi Muyo. My favorite was Slayers as it easily matched the over the top magic as seen in the anime.
Recap of a Slayers game I ran.
Spoiler
Starts off with Lina Inverse and Gourry Gabriev heading into town. They stop along the way to do a little fishing. On the way into town they notice all the local fields are barren. At the inn they order a large meal. When they get the check and find out it's 500 gold pieces Lina has a fit. The owner says since the local crops have failed, food prices have soared. The crops failed because a magic staff was stolen by a group of bandits two months back. The staff made the area have large harvests. They are offered a deal if they get the staff back the meal will be free.
The players agree to the deal and head out to find the bandits. Its a group of 50 who have been raiding the area for the last year and living in an old fort. Lina decides to disguise themselves as bandits looking for work to sneak in. It seems to work and they get in to meet the boss. The boss listens to their pitch about looking for work. He then says there is word that Lina Inverse is in the area and goes into a list of unflattering comments about her. This causes Lina to snap and give herself away.
A battle with the guards in the room ends quickly and the boss is captured. The bad news he sold the staff to a merchant a few days ago since he had no use for it. They decided to take the boss with them to the merchant but an attack from some archers allows him to escape back into the fort. A last remark about a "Flat chested wench" ends with the fort being hit by a Dragon Slave.
They find the merchant (Carlos) in a town holding a festival. He bought the magic staff to be a prize in a Brass Racquets tournament. Carlos thinks having Lina enter would boost the attendance so he offers to pay their way in. When registering they run into some old friends Martina and Zangulus who have also entered. Martina gets a laugh when she points out that Gourry does not know how to play. It looks bad till Xellos walks in an offers to be Lina's partner. They ask him why and he just says he was bored and Lina is always up to something. The games goes well with Lina getting two quick knockouts. The final with the Martina team takes a while (player and GM not rolling worth a damn) but in the end Lina wins.
Carlos holds up the prize and as they walk to get it a figure rips it out of his hand and runs off. A quick look around shows Xellos has already disappeared so they give chase. They catch up to him about a mile outside city limits. At that point Gourry notices its a Mazoku (monster in the dub). He says he was the one who had the bandits steal the staff to cause chaos in the area. After a short fight he falls to the Sword of Light. Xellos is heard in the distance saying "Fun as always Lina."
A quick trip brings them back to the original town and they return the staff. Being hungry they order another meal and get yet another big check. The owner explains it will take a bit for food prices to drop. Not wanting to pay they dine and dash and are chased for a few miles out of town by the staff screaming "Pay for your dinner."
Unfortunately BESM 3e was tagged as an "Anime/Manga" RPG after that craze had cooled somewhat in the U.S.
If it'd been marketed as a generic system however...
Quote from: Wiroki;903132Unfortunately BESM 3e was tagged as an "Anime/Manga" RPG after that craze had cooled somewhat in the U.S.
If it'd been marketed as a generic system however...
Eh, the problem with BESM 3e wasn't being associated with anime - it was being associated with Guardians of Order, which had gone out of business badly.
Honestly, Manga still seems pretty huge - I go through the local libraries and the local B&N, and there's shelves and shelves of manga there.
Quote from: jcfiala;903139Eh, the problem with BESM 3e wasn't being associated with anime - it was being associated with Guardians of Order, which had gone out of business.
And Mark MacKinnon left the company in such a state that it's not clear what can be done with the properties beyond making PDFs/POD copies available.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;903143And Mark MacKinnon left the company in such a state that it's not clear what can be done with the properties beyond making PDFs/POD copies available.
Is there more to that story? Curious, as I wasn't hitting the forums heavy at the time so didn't catch any of the drama regarding GoO.
Quote from: TristramEvans;903155Is there more to that story? Curious, as I wasn't hitting the forums heavy at the time so didn't catch any of the drama regarding GoO.
yah all i ever heard is they went belly up with no details
Quote from: TristramEvans;903155Is there more to that story? Curious, as I wasn't hitting the forums heavy at the time so didn't catch any of the drama regarding GoO.
There used to be a site up by one of the former staff (or just freelancer?) with all sorts of details on some of the scams run by someone at GOO. Not sure who now gone and last I checked it was a virus trap. Too bad as there were articles on other RPG and con scams too. Whatever happened I know artists werent paid, possibly designers werent and when MacKinnon resurfaced with a KS there was some angry folks warning not to trust his "Ive Changed! Trust me!" claims a few years back.
According to the report. Part of the problem was that GOO was counting on the Canadian dollar being strong and did not adapt as that factor changed.
Found part of it. Waybacking to the safe version.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130522200448/http://misfit-studios.com/blog/press-release/pd46fx-update-mark-mackinnon-deserve-money-chance (http://web.archive.org/web/20130522200448/http://misfit-studios.com/blog/press-release/pd46fx-update-mark-mackinnon-deserve-money-chance)
And this. Watch out for any links back to Misfits site as dont know if its still virused.
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/962952/can-you-trust-designer (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/962952/can-you-trust-designer)
And heres Mac posting on RPGG not long after that and James Lowder spoke up pretty quick.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/963033/mark-mackinnon-addresses-guardians-order-closure-c (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/963033/mark-mackinnon-addresses-guardians-order-closure-c)
Total mess.
Quote from: Omega;903166Found part of it. Waybacking to the safe version.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130522200448/http://misfit-studios.com/blog/press-release/pd46fx-update-mark-mackinnon-deserve-money-chance (http://web.archive.org/web/20130522200448/http://misfit-studios.com/blog/press-release/pd46fx-update-mark-mackinnon-deserve-money-chance)
And this. Watch out for any links back to Misfits site as dont know if its still virused.
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/962952/can-you-trust-designer (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/962952/can-you-trust-designer)
And heres Mac posting on RPGG not long after that and James Lowder spoke up pretty quick.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/963033/mark-mackinnon-addresses-guardians-order-closure-c (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/963033/mark-mackinnon-addresses-guardians-order-closure-c)
Total mess.
Wow, quite the read. Thanks for that.
From what I heard Mark MacKinnon was doing everything he could to hide the financial problems of the company. It took a public post by George R. R. Martin for him to finally come clean about them being out of business. Its a shame as I still rank this as one of my favorite systems.
Quote from: Omega;903162There used to be a site up by one of the former staff (or just freelancer?) with all sorts of details on some of the scams run by someone at GOO. Not sure who now gone and last I checked it was a virus trap. Too bad as there were articles on other RPG and con scams too. Whatever happened I know artists werent paid, possibly designers werent and when MacKinnon resurfaced with a KS there was some angry folks warning not to trust his "Ive Changed! Trust me!" claims a few years back.
MacKinnon never really scammed anybody. He had a business that went bankrupt and was unable to pay its debts. He didn't publicly announce the financial state of the company because that would have precipitated a run by creditors which would put the company out of business. (Which is ultimately what happened.)
The only thing I've seen that seemed like an actual ethical problem was that GoO products were still being sold on DriveThruRPG years after MacKinnon lost the rights to them. But as someone who similarly has online store accounts with a couple dozen different online venues (including a Lulu account which continues to accrue incredibly tiny amounts of cash), it's actually not difficult for me to believe that the marginal sales on DTRPG simply accrued to an online account that MacKinnon simply forgot still existed. According to all accounts, MacKinnon immediately closed that account when it was brought to his attention and paid the money in that account to the creators who owned the rights to the PDFs in question.
The witch hunt demanding that MacKinnon should never publish another game because he had a company go bankrupt is intensely distasteful.
What I heard is that he got hit with the American to Canadian exchange rate that effectively killed him.
Huhn. Still, wish I had the money for the 3e PDF. Being poor sucks.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;903314The witch hunt demanding that MacKinnon should never publish another game because he had a company go bankrupt is intensely distasteful.
According to some of the participants he hasnt tried to make good on what he owes and has in at least one case ignored one of those people. How far or not out of wack it is will likely never be known for sure. But as it stands people havent been paid and will probably never be paid since GOO is DOA as its original entity. MacKinnon's been dodgy about certain particulars which is never a good sign.
Could it be he was just utterly incompetent instead of a crook? Sure. Wouldnt be the first and wont be the last.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;903314MacKinnon never really scammed anybody. He had a business that went bankrupt and was unable to pay its debts. He didn't publicly announce the financial state of the company because that would have precipitated a run by creditors which would put the company out of business. (Which is ultimately what happened.)
The only thing I've seen that seemed like an actual ethical problem was that GoO products were still being sold on DriveThruRPG years after MacKinnon lost the rights to them. But as someone who similarly has online store accounts with a couple dozen different online venues (including a Lulu account which continues to accrue incredibly tiny amounts of cash), it's actually not difficult for me to believe that the marginal sales on DTRPG simply accrued to an online account that MacKinnon simply forgot still existed. According to all accounts, MacKinnon immediately closed that account when it was brought to his attention and paid the money in that account to the creators who owned the rights to the PDFs in question.
The witch hunt demanding that MacKinnon should never publish another game because he had a company go bankrupt is intensely distasteful.
As an observer reading about events after the fact its impossible to know the truth, but the claim made by many, many people is that even though MacKinnon knew the company was going under he was still taking money from people as part of the Magnus Opus program setup ostensibly to help independent designers and then abruptly ceased all communication. But anyone can read the same links I did posted above and decide for themselves.
Anyways, not saying that nomatter the truth MacKinnon should never publish another game, that's just absurd. But anyone who is considering investing in one of his Kicstarters should look at the fact that when things went bad with GoO, he wasn't upfront about anything, he ceased communication with people he owed money and made promises to, and eventually a bunch of people lost a lot of money directly because of his actions. And if one sees a parallel between that and the way quite a few infamous RPG kickstarters have turned out, that's probably a good indication of how far one should trust him with their money.
I would never invest money to Mark through a Kickstarter, based on what I know of what went wrong at GoO, but my chief complaint is that he didn't communicate well when things did go south (I used to have a PM over on RPG.net from Jenna Moran about the anguish she and her spouse went through over the GoO debacle). But hounding him? Well, I'll leave that to his creditors. I've gone bankrupt once in my life, and it was not entirely my fault (thank you Citibank, for nothing), and am glad I've got a chance to move on with my life. I guess my point is he wrote fun games, tried to do some good work, and then things fell apart around him. But I also believe that the quality of a work of fiction / game / whatever is not dependent on the quality of the person with the pen.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;900071Can anyone comment on BESM? It got recommended on another thread. From the one review I found for 3rd it looked pretty cool as a generic system when the characters have powers. The review did note that there's no bestiary for it.
It's a decent system for doing anime style RPGs. The first edition is a bit sketchy. The second, revised edition fleshes it out and refines it. The third edition changes some thing that some people did not like about the system such as rolling low being good but added some complexity that seemed unnecessary to me. It can be used as a generic system with some work but it is written with anime style games in mind. A lot of the material will be of little use if you are not planning to run a game of that sort. There's no bestiary per se but there are sample antagonists in the book that serve the same function and suggestions for designing your own opponents. The genre sourcebooks also include antagonists commonly seen in the genre being covered too.
Quote from: Omega;903331According to some of the participants he hasnt tried to make good on what he owes
He doesn't owe anyone anything. Guardians of Order owed them money. Guardians of Order went bankrupt. That's literally the entire reason that we have limited liability corporations.
Quote from: Coffee Zombie;903515But hounding him? Well, I'll leave that to his creditors. I've gone bankrupt once in my life, and it was not entirely my fault (thank you Citibank, for nothing), and am glad I've got a chance to move on with my life.
Exactly. I was literally driven out of the industry when companies failed to pay me more than $20,000 for work I'd already completed back in the 2002-2003 time frame. Most of that was due to companies going out of business; and although that was frustrating, I never bore them ill-will. It's not like they (or Mark MacKinnon) said, "Bwahahahaha! I shall drive my company into bankruptcy just so that I don't have to pay the freelancers!"
If there was some evidence that MacKinnon took some sort of golden parachute and stripped GoO of resources, that would be one thing. But doing his best in the hopes that the company will pull through doesn't make him a villain.
I know Mark MacKinnon in passing; I gamed with him in university (though not often). One of my good friends was one of his best friends through university up to the point of GoO collapsing.
Mark is not a mustachio-twirling, top-hatted villain tying freelancers to the train tracks, but he has a stunning lack of self-awareness over his own role in the collapse of GoO and his perceived failure to live up to his fiduciary responsibilities. The best spin that can be put on things is that he stuck his head in the sand when things started going badly, and ran away from the collapsing house of straw rather than clean up his mess properly. And to this day seems baffled why people are upset with him.
That sort is actually worse than the mustacshio-twirling villain.
Never attribute malice when mere stupidity can be the answer.
The most tragic thing to me was that they went under just as they were starting on Amber 2e.
Quote from: RPGPundit;905482The most tragic thing to me was that they went under just as they were starting on Amber 2e.
your not the only one iv met a number of other people who feel the same way
Quote from: kosmos1214;905549your not the only one iv met a number of other people who feel the same way
Which has always boggled my mind. The original system is pure "DM May I?" what's to improve on?? Just reprint the original books, make a mint.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;905564The original system is pure "DM May I?" what's to improve on?? Just reprint the original books, make a mint.
A capital (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=113) idea (http://www.ritepublishing.com/dicelessroleplaying.html).
Brady is lying. The system is no more 'mother may I' than any other RPG.
And Lords of Olympus (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=113), even putting aside that it has a completely different setting, is not just a reprint of the Amber rules. I don't know if I'd say it's an "improvement", but it clarifies and provides more concrete structure to explain how the rules work, to put the lie to the bullshit Amber-haters say about the system.
Quote from: RPGPundit;906107Brady is lying. The system is no more 'mother may I' than any other RPG.
And Lords of Olympus (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=113), even putting aside that it has a completely different setting, is not just a reprint of the Amber rules. I don't know if I'd say it's an "improvement", but it clarifies and provides more concrete structure to explain how the rules work, to put the lie to the bullshit Amber-haters say about the system.
I've introduced a few Amber die-hards to LoO and they prefer LoO to the original. Just a better fit and more accessible underlying fiction/mythology. But that's not really on topic :)
Quote from: daniel_ream;905592LoGS
Damn awesome game. Too bad more people don't play it.
I miss BESM and I wish it would come back so bad
Quote from: RPGPundit;906107Brady is lying. The system is no more 'mother may I' than any other RPG.
Huhn? There's no randomizer. You either compare numbers and accept that you win or lose, or you apparently come up with something that GM decides (Mother May I?) is good enough to beat the target. Every challenge is done in this manner.
In D&D, you often roll dice in place of asking. In Palladium's various games, you roll dice instead of asking. Even in most White Wolf games, you roll instead of asking.
Do you only play Amber or it's derivative 'Storygames'?
Quote from: RPGPundit;906107And Lords of Olympus (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=113), even putting aside that it has a completely different setting, is not just a reprint of the Amber rules. I don't know if I'd say it's an "improvement", but it clarifies and provides more concrete structure to explain how the rules work, to put the lie to the bullshit Amber-haters say about the system.
If it clarifies, it's an improvement. Not that hard a concept.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;906229Huhn? There's no randomizer. You either compare numbers and accept that you win or lose, or you apparently come up with something that GM decides (Mother May I?) is good enough to beat the target. Every challenge is done in this manner.
uh... Thats not "Mother May I?" as its been described.
"Mother May I?" is when the DM says Yes or No with no arbitration or chance.
The DM assigning a difficulty to the task is not "Mother May I?"
The PC wants to jump across the ravine. "Mother May I?" is where the DM says "No" rather than say assigning a target number, percent chance, whatever. As applies to things that should have a chance of success no matter how small. Asking the DM. "Can I swim across the lava moat?" and being told. "No" is not "Mother May I?".
Monte Cook has a blog about it somewhere.
Back on topic.
What is the difference, or not, between BESM and the Tri-Stat system? I hear some people speak of the two as if they were the same thing sometimes.
Quote from: Omega;906232uh... Thats not "Mother May I?" as its been described.
"Mother May I?" is when the DM says Yes or No with no arbitration or chance.
The DM assigning a difficulty to the task is not "Mother May I?"
Exactly. This is how Amber does it. The DM says yes or no. The fact that a player can offer suggestions or sneaky ideas at how to overcome the obstacle means nothing, even the numbers given is pointless, it is all up to the DM. They get to decide, and it's final. End of Line. No arbitration, no randomness. Which is 'Mother May I?'
Thank you for proving my point.
Quote from: Omega;906232The PC wants to jump across the ravine. "Mother May I?" is where the DM says "No" rather than say assigning a target number, percent chance, whatever. As applies to things that should have a chance of success no matter how small. Asking the DM. "Can I swim across the lava moat?" and being told. "No" is not "Mother May I?".
Not sure what you're getting at here? These examples are too vague to be useful in terms of (or more accurately, lack thereof) mechanical discussion.
Quote from: Omega;906232Monte Cook has a blog about it somewhere.
That's nice, but utterly irrelevant.
Quote from: Omega;906232Back on topic.
What is the difference, or not, between BESM and the Tri-Stat system? I hear some people speak of the two as if they were the same thing sometimes.
There isn't any except the themes used. Those who prefer the term Tri-Stat or often somehow uncomfortable with that BESM means or what the game system is used for there. Or so I've noted, anecdotally.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;906238Exactly. This is how Amber does it. The DM says yes or no. The fact that a player can offer suggestions or sneaky ideas at how to overcome the obstacle means nothing, even the numbers given is pointless, it is all up to the DM. They get to decide, and it's final. End of Line. No arbitration, no randomness. Which is 'Mother May I?'
Thank you for proving my point.
That was not how you described it above. You worded it as if the GM then came up with some sort of target one or the other had to beat. Not a flat Yes/No.
So I proved the point you didnt properly present. But thanks for clarifying what you meant.
But if "or you apparently come up with something that GM decides (Mother May I?) is good enough to beat the target." then that sounds more like the GM arbitrating rather than Yes/No-ing? I know nothing of Amber Diceless hence why I am asking for clarification.
Quote from: Omega;906244I know nothing of Amber Diceless
That's right, you don't. You might want to catch up; those of us who do knew exactly what Brady meant.
I ran ADRPG for years and pretty much concur with Brady. It's just Mother May I.
Quote from: Omega;906232What is the difference, or not, between BESM and the Tri-Stat system? I hear some people speak of the two as if they were the same thing sometimes.
Tri-Stat DX came out sometime in the 2nd edition BESM era, well before the end. It was the base system underlying BESM, but made more "generic" and less anime-based in presentation (and some of the naming schemes, I think). Essentially it was GoO's offering into the system arena. Calling BESM a Tri-Stat system would also be correct, even though it came first. Silver Age Sentinels, The Authority and few others RPGs that GoO produced were all Tri-Stat.
Quote from: Omega;906232What is the difference, or not, between BESM and the Tri-Stat system? I hear some people speak of the two as if they were the same thing sometimes.
They aren't quite the same thing. The basic resolution mechanic is the same. The main difference is the dice used. BESM uses 2d6 for resolution. Tri-stat dX allows for the use of two of any type of dice. That's where the dX comes in. Generally speaking, the bigger the dice, the greater the difference in power scale the system can accommodate. The Silver Age Sentinels super heroes version uses d12s.
Quote from: daniel_ream;906249That's right, you don't. You might want to catch up; those of us who do knew exactly what Brady meant.
I ran ADRPG for years and pretty much concur with Brady. It's just Mother May I.
So... You dont know the answer either...
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:
I'll wait for Chris to explain what he meant as hes at least coherent and makes good points.
Regarding BESM in comparison to Tri-Stat dX.
BESM2e is to Tri-Stat dX as B/X Dungeons & Dragons is to Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2e.
BESM2e uses 2d6 roll under for resolution. Tri-Stat dX uses 2 dice (d4, d6, d8, or d10 depending on power level of the game) roll under. Both are point build systems. The point costs are different for things, but are generally somewhat similar. Tri-Stat dX adds a few extra complexity bits which affect character creation, but generally don't create much fundamental difference after character generation. A BESM2e character is more or less compatible with a Tri Stat dX game run at the d6 scale, in much the same way as a B/X character would be functionally playable in a game run with AD&D 2e rules.
(sighs) I miss BESM. At least I still have my hard copy of BESM 1E I got from Amazon.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;906444(sighs) I miss BESM. At least I still have my hard copy of BESM 1E I got from Amazon.
I still have my copy of "Cute Fuzzy *Cockfighting* Seizure Monsters" for BESM. Friend has the PC version of the cover and title.
Quote from: Omega;906427I'll wait for Chris to explain what he meant as hes at least coherent and makes good points.
If you can understand the Queen's English when written, there's nothing I can do to help you, son.
On topic: I actually found most of my BESM stuff recently, like Uresia: Grave of Heaven, Dungeon Fantasy and the bestiary which I've misplaced. Now, I just need to find a core book and I am set for fun!
They aren't hard to find at all.
https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-BESM/dp/1894525450
Quote from: yosemitemike;906469They aren't hard to find at all.
https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-BESM/dp/1894525450
So, I clicked that link and saw some reasonable prices, like 14.xx USD. Thought to myself, "Maybe I'll check Canada's Amazon, seeing as I'm Canadian." And this is what I found:
https://www.amazon.ca/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-BESM/dp/B01FEL5CGG/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1467513162&sr=8-4-fkmr0&keywords=Big+Eyes+Small+Mouth+2e
:eek:
Quote from: Christopher Brady;906471So, I clicked that link and saw some reasonable prices, like 14.xx USD. Thought to myself, "Maybe I'll check Canada's Amazon, seeing as I'm Canadian." And this is what I found:
https://www.amazon.ca/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-BESM/dp/B01FEL5CGG/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1467513162&sr=8-4-fkmr0&keywords=Big+Eyes+Small+Mouth+2e
:eek:
Holy shit. That's ridiculous.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/365/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-Revised-Second-Edition?it=1
pdf?
QuoteI'll wait for Chris to explain what he meant as hes at least coherent and makes good points.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;906468If you can understand the Queen's English when written, there's nothing I can do to help you, son.
Thanks for proving me wrong on that assumption.
Quote from: yosemitemike;906478Holy shit. That's ridiculous.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/365/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-Revised-Second-Edition?it=1
pdf?
Never trust Amazon as people seem to want to use it like e-bay
A quick check shows 1st ed for sale paperback on Amazon for 8$ and 2nd ed for 15$
https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-Role-Playing/dp/096824310X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1467521823&sr=8-3&keywords=big+eyes+small+mouth (https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-Role-Playing/dp/096824310X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1467521823&sr=8-3&keywords=big+eyes+small+mouth)
https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-BESM/dp/1894525450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467521823&sr=8-1&keywords=big+eyes+small+mouth (https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-BESM/dp/1894525450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467521823&sr=8-1&keywords=big+eyes+small+mouth)
Quote from: yosemitemike;906478Holy shit. That's ridiculous.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/365/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-Revised-Second-Edition?it=1
pdf?
I'll take what I can get, when I have the money, but thank you, it's sincerely appreciated.
Quote from: Omega;906454I still have my copy of "Cute Fuzzy *Cockfighting* Seizure Monsters" for BESM. Friend has the PC version of the cover and title.
A good example of why you shouldn't let someone who despises an entire genre write the sourcebook for it.
Quote from: daniel_ream;906679A good example of why you shouldn't let someone who despises an entire genre write the sourcebook for it.
heh-heh. Funny thing is. Aside from the cover. Thats all that was changed and the book itself doesnt demonize or extoll the genre. He just explains his outlook on the genre in the intro. And he was right too really. Pokemon and all the other pet monster fighter games ARE cockfighting games. The rules and such themselves are pretty neutral.
Big Ears Small Mouse on the other hand, despite claiming to be neutral on the realism vs toon scale. Leans heavily to the toon side.
Quote from: Omega;906831Thats all that was changed and the book itself doesnt demonize or extoll the genre. He just explains his outlook on the genre in the intro. And he was right too really. Pokemon and all the other pet monster fighter games ARE cockfighting games. The rules and such themselves are pretty neutral.
"Inside you will find an engaging satire of the 'monster fighting' genre, but you can use this book to play effective in-genre characters as well." ~ Emily K. Dresner-Thomber
Unless you know something I don't about Emily Dresner, I'm not sure we're talking about the same book.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;906471So, I clicked that link and saw some reasonable prices, like 14.xx USD. Thought to myself, "Maybe I'll check Canada's Amazon, seeing as I'm Canadian." And this is what I found:
https://www.amazon.ca/Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-BESM/dp/B01FEL5CGG/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1467513162&sr=8-4-fkmr0&keywords=Big+Eyes+Small+Mouth+2e
:eek:
amazon.ca has retarded prices for used items. One reason I maintain a PO box in the states
Quote from: daniel_ream;906844Unless you know something I don't about Emily Dresner, I'm not sure we're talking about the same book.
Unless you know something about Mark MacKinnon we dont... it is still He. Since he was the one who wrote the foreword.
QuoteFOREWORD
Love it or hate it, we would be remiss if we didn’t publish this book.
The pet monster anime genre has exploded across Japan, North America, and the entire world. Anime has never been more “trendy” than it is today, thanks to a little yellow rat and his pre-adolescent trainer.
So why is it so popular?
Good question. I believe the answer lies in the near perfect construction of the genre’s ringleader, Pokémon. The phenomenon has a very strong base in video games — a steadily growing market thanks to state-of-the-game-art technology that makes the game experience more dynamic and exciting every day. Adding to this base is Pokémon’s broad appeal to both young boys and girls. Consider the stereotypes: for boys, there are battles and cool monsters and mean villains; for girls, there are strong women and oh-so-cute fuzzy animals and friendly relationships. Finally, when you add the addictive elements of collectability (anyone remember Cabbage Patch Kids?), the creators of Pokémon had a can’t-miss hit on their hands. Strong marketing and promotion by Nintendo and its partners snared the North American market.
Then the plethora of others came along, each adding their own take on the subject. The genre had taken root.
I struggled over the decision to publish this book. We wanted to serve the fan base of the popular genre, but didn’t want to look like we were “selling out.” That just isn’t our style. When Emily approached David (the anime line developer) and told him that she’d like to do a serious treatment of the genre but in a satirical tone, I gave the green light for the project.
Admittedly, I still have reservations, but if we can please the fans and have some fun at the same time, then the risk is worth it.
We hope you agree.
Mark C. MacKinnon
December 2000
Quote from: daniel_ream;906249That's right, you don't. You might want to catch up; those of us who do knew exactly what Brady meant.
I ran ADRPG for years and pretty much concur with Brady. It's just Mother May I.
Which explain why certain GMs love it;).
Quote from: Omega;906886Unless you know something about Mark MacKinnon we dont
I already established that upthread.
QuoteWhen Emily approached David (the anime line developer) and told him that she’d like to do a serious treatment of the genre but in a satirical tone,
QED.