Here's the Hero System 4th edition Bundle of Holding (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Champions4Essentials). It includes the Big Blue Book- yes, that one. Holy sweet fucky indeed!
if you hear a loud noise, that's just Hyperman howling in complete victory over this:)
40USD? Ah, nuts. That's out of my price range, sadly.
$40 dollars for 65 books? Of the most playable & best version o the game?
sign me up!
Just waiting for a later version of the Bundle that includes all the campaign books like Ninja Hero and Horror Hero...
Quote from: Christopher Brady;95670740USD? Ah, nuts. That's out of my price range, sadly.
Even the $15 core of the Essentials bundle contains enough to maintain a game for years.
Hero 4th...you bastards keep telling me it's the best version. Ima smack somebody if it still sucks. :D
I can't very well get Hero and leave behind Heavy Gear and Advanced Fighting Fantasy, can I?
Oh goddamnit.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;956778Even the $15 core of the Essentials bundle contains enough to maintain a game for years.
I want the Dark Champions stuff, which is the expansion price. The Ultimate Martial Arts stuff is also useful as well. AND they have decent PDF copies of the Champions: New Millennium three books? Don't get me wrong, just that alone is worth the $55CDN asking price and I WANT it, the rest of the stuff is just gravy.
But I can't afford it.
Some questions...
The martial arts seem pretty robust, what does Ninja Hero get you that the Rules and Ultimate Martial Artist don't?
Is there a Cyber Hero for doing Cyberpunk? If not, where's the list of Cyber "powers"?
Was there a Star Hero for 4th and did it have ship construction?
What does Fantasy Hero get you that the Rules plus Ultimate Magic and Mentalist don't?
Why does 4th seem like a role-playing game written in English while 6th seems like a Vulcan Tech Manual?
Assuming you are NOT going to use HERO for Supers, what are the best supplements?
What are the major bugs/pitfalls/known issues/broken rules/etc. in 4th, what do you watch out for?
Just bought this for completeness myself and to throw a little dosh Hero's way. CRKrueger, this may not be the bundle you want, as it is really a Champions oriented bundle and doesn't include any of the other genre material. Personally, I would say either 5th or 6th are the best editions, so it would depend on what aspects of Hero you like and what aspects bother you.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863Some questions...
The martial arts seem pretty robust, what does Ninja Hero get you that the Rules and Ultimate Martial Artist don't?
I used to have UMA and later picked up NH. The major difference are mainly the packages, NH has career style packages specifically the various type of martial artists, like the Wuxia adventurer to Japanese Samurai and Ninja to American Martial Arts hero that showed up during the 80's. It also has ideas for themes and types of campaigns as well, I think. It's been years since I've had my books.
Hence why I want this package.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863Is there a Cyber Hero for doing Cyberpunk? If not, where's the list of Cyber "powers"?
There was a Cyber Hero for 4th, it came out in 1990. During the tail end of the Cyberpunk craze.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863Was there a Star Hero for 4th and did it have ship construction?
Don't think so. Can't find any mention of it.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863What does Fantasy Hero get you that the Rules plus Ultimate Magic and Mentalist don't?
Fantasy Hero covered everything, from weapons to archetypes (like the Heavy Fighter and Light Fighter, for those of you who liked your Wall That Walks and you're lithe swashie sword pokers. Different types of magic users and rogues and all that), to some basics of magic (which was pretty extensive, considering the size of the book) and several campaign suggestions. It also had a break down of the 'types' of Fantasy genres and what they tend to entail (High Fantasy a la D&D, in which magic is everywhere as are races, but the Universe tends to as Neutral as a Sword and Sorcery one, which is mostly humanocentric and tends to favour the fighting man, as opposed to the magic user. Epic Fantasy is the Tolkien style, single world shaking threat, so on and so forth.)
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863Why does 4th seem like a role-playing game written in English while 6th seems like a Vulcan Tech Manual?
People change as they get older.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863Assuming you are NOT going to use HERO for Supers, what are the best supplements?
Fantasy Hero, Ninja Hero and Ultimate Martial Arts for non-superpowered game play. Dark Champions core book if you're looking for a more modern feel, as although you can do the super vigilante thing, it lends itself pretty good to the 80's maverick/renegade cop feel. As well as G.I.Joe style games if you want.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863What are the major bugs/pitfalls/known issues/broken rules/etc. in 4th, what do you watch out for?
This is also something I'd like to know.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863Some questions...
The martial arts seem pretty robust, what does Ninja Hero get you that the Rules and Ultimate Martial Artist don't?
Don't know--that's one of the 4E books I've never read, although I just nabbed a $2 copy off of eBay. OTOH, it's Aaron Allston, so that's arguably +2 right there. :)
QuoteIs there a Cyber Hero for doing Cyberpunk? If not, where's the list of Cyber "powers"?
There's a 4E
Cyber Hero, but it's not particularly well-regarded as I understand.
QuoteWas there a Star Hero for 4th and did it have ship construction?
Nope--Star Hero and Pulp Hero/Justice Inc. were left behind during the 4E run, and only got updated in the 5E era. Horror, cyberpunk and westerns, by contrast, got their last HERO treatments to date in the 4E era.
QuoteWhy does 4th seem like a role-playing game written in English while 6th seems like a Vulcan Tech Manual?
5E and 6E are Steve Long's babies. He does very good work, IMO, but it tends to the overly comprehensive and occasionally dry.
Ninja Hero explodes the 2 pages of martial arts in the core book to an entire section of the book devoted to martial arts of all kinds -- the other section of the book is about different martial arts campaigns that you could run. (Remember the 80s B- Movie industry was alive with American Ninja and other such fare...)
Star Hero was never in print for 4e but the playtest draft was released and can be found if you look up Red October (the fansite for the old 4e game).
Cyber Hero was iffy. The Hero System works with you using the mechanics to come up with the game effect and the 'special effects' created by you. Restrained -1/4 is one Limitation you will need to know ( it shows that your cyber could be disrupted by EMP attacks, tasers, and direct damage to the parts itself). And Extra Dimension Travel is used for hacking into cyberspace.
Never read Ultimate Magic or Ultimate Mentalist -- cannot compare.
Why is 4e read better than 5e/6e? This is what I heard/conjectured. 4e was the last version that had the original writers involved. They were old school gamers from back in the day. Steve Long is a Rules Lawyer. The old management saw his manuscript (which became 5e) and flat out rejected it. They never saw Hero complicated, but did not think going in the direction of more complexity was a great idea.
Number one problem with Hero -- just because it is possible does not mean it is right. Champions contains examples of how the player can create min-max power Munchkins. The GM has to be able to say NO. Experience seeing the game actually played is paramount. And the GM has to look over a created PC when he sees how powerful a trick that he (the GM) has already approved and retcon the bejesus out of the PC.
(The system starting with 5e started moving towards the rule master -- the guy/gal who lived and breathed RAW. That is fine. But that is a niche within a niche. 6e seemed to be a power grab by Steve Long to change the system just for the sake of change. Dropping fixed characteristics does make sense, but it leaves you with 17 stats and the system becomes a completely gamist system then the simulation that it began as. These are just my , could be wrong...)
This is the Champions Bundle release -- you probably want to wait for the inevitable Hero System Bundle release -- just the Hero System Rulebook and all the campaign settings books like Fantasy Hero and Western Hero.
FYI Go to and purchase the AlterEgo software -- the main system. You will follow that with the Hero 4e module that canbe found in the free give away section. With all that you can create all kinds of characters...
I was always impressed by the range of things you could do with that system, but I could never wrap my poor little brain around it.
There's just about zero chance I'll ever play Hero 4 again. But good lord, there's some choice stuff in the Champions Universe collection. Champions in 3D, Invasion Target Earth, and Zodiac Conpsiracy were all decent products and would make good idea fodder for any traditional supers game. I imagine that some of the products I never bought are gold, too!
So much want!
Fixed incomes suck.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;957000So much want!
Fixed incomes suck.
I live on a fixed income too. Which is to say, I have a job.
jg
Quote from: LouGoncey;956957Ninja Hero
This is the Champions Bundle release -- you probably want to wait for the inevitable Hero System Bundle release -- just the Hero System Rulebook and all the campaign settings books like Fantasy Hero and Western Hero.
Thanks for the detailed description--it especially helps those like myself that know there is some connection between Hero and Champions, but can't remember it.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956863What are the major bugs/pitfalls/known issues/broken rules/etc. in 4th, what do you watch out for?
It's been a while since I've really dug into 4th, but my memory is that the derived stats are things to watch out for - high levels of DEX provide a lot of secondary benefits, to the point where you might consider cranking the cost of it above a certain level (say, once the hero hits Dex 30, make it cost 4 build points per point of DEX) or possibly put a ceiling on how high a derived stat can get - for instance, only a SPD of 3 or 4 from DEX.
Quote from: James Gillen;957007I live on a fixed income too. Which is to say, I have a job.
jg
I had one, then my scoliosis made it impossible. I miss it.
Quote from: James Gillen;957007I live on a fixed income too. Which is to say, I have a job.
jg
Right. Must be nice. Wish I could have one. Then I could get this.
Thanks for the answers all.
So Cyberhero doesn't have set Cyberware Implants/Packages? You have to design them using something similar to Powers rules? So you design cyberlegs that let you run 500mph and jump into orbit, but they only cost 2pts because you have to wind them up with a key and they only work when the New Moon falls on a Wednesday, shit like that?
The real difference;
4th Edition Champions has CLOWN.
Steve Long's Champions Universe does not have CLOWN.
That is basically what you need to know.
jg
Quote from: CRKrueger;957174Thanks for the answers all.
So Cyberhero doesn't have set Cyberware Implants/Packages? You have to design them using something similar to Powers rules?
This being Hero, everything is designed the same way, "cybernetics" is just a special effect like everything else.
I kind of want to pick this up because I've always wanted to get into Champions/Hero (the couple of times I played it, it was 4th edition), but having looked at 6th edition and lost 1d10 SAN in the process, I'm wary. I'm not crazy about games where chargen takes more than 20-30 minutes (GURPS, looking at you) but seeing as I don't really have a go-to supers game, I might give Hero another try with this.
How is 4e better than 6e?
And most importantly, is there a character generator I can download for free? That would go a long way for me.
The Champions BBB managed to have all the Hero 4th rules and the Champions campaign setting in around 350 pages, while the 6th edition is just the rules coming in at well over 600 in two books. Everything had a much longer explanation in 6th. 4th had a playfully fun vibe about it- 6th was dry. 4th used a hex map and miniatures, 6th didn't (if I recall right). As far as what's actually better at the table? No clue!
Quote from: James Gillen;957187The real difference;
4th Edition Champions has CLOWN.
Steve Long's Champions Universe does not have CLOWN.
That is basically what you need to know.
jg
I wouldn't use it for Supers, so the different settings don't affect me.
CyberHero does have preset packages -- cybernetic implants and programs. My bad...
If you want characters created in 15 minutes, look elsewhere. Even in 3rd edition Champions...
Quote from: RunningLaser;957248The Champions BBB managed to have all the Hero 4th rules and the Champions campaign setting in around 350 pages, while the 6th edition is just the rules coming in at well over 600 in two books. Everything had a much longer explanation in 6th. 4th had a playfully fun vibe about it- 6th was dry. 4th used a hex map and miniatures, 6th didn't (if I recall right). As far as what's actually better at the table? No clue!
Note: I've played 4th and 5th edition, but only skimmed 6th edition.
In general, 4th edition had more points where it said "GM should adjust/interpret as they see fit" and appealing to common sense. It tried to make powers broad and cross-genre where possible, but still . It's design was about taking the various different 3rd edition games (Champions, Fantasy Hero, Justice Inc, Danger International, Star Hero), and merge them. It did a lot of streamlining and simplification compared to just lumping all the games together.
5th and 6th editions concentrated on closing loopholes in 4th edition, and the results were more long-winded and less guidelines.
The BBB Champions 4th Edition era had more good than bad.
From 1st through 4th editions were my favorite times for the line. Where I thought imagination was truly unbridled.
But every good product line has its share of stinkers. And 4th Edition is no different in that regard. But you can ignore bad fairly easily.
Quote from: LouGoncey;957284If you want characters created in 15 minutes, look elsewhere. Even in 3rd edition Champions...
It depends. It takes me 5-15 mins to create a Hero System character. But it can take others much longer in part due to the range of options being imposing, lack of familarit with the system and the desire to optimize more than I do.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;957173Right. Must be nice. Wish I could have one. Then I could get this.
Fixed income sucks more than having a job since your income is totally outside your control. No working more hours, no overtime, many times no payday advance (ruinous as those can be) limited credit and often even the inability to look for another part time job to supplement your income. You can't even plan for a "raise" most of the time. And payday is one a month, period. its surprising what a difference that makes as much discretionary income and expense planning. I've lived both ways and working is the better way to live, IMO.
Quote from: Nexus;957460Fixed income sucks more than having a job since your income is totally outside your control. No working more hours, no overtime, many times no payday advance (ruinous as those can be) limited credit and often even the inability to look for another part time job to supplement your income. You can't even plan for a "raise" most of the time. And payday is one a month, period. its surprising what a difference that makes as much discretionary income and expense planning. I've lived both ways and working is the better way to live, IMO.
I wish I could work. Being a cripple sucks. Anyhoosit, it still doesn't stop me from pining for this collection of books I used to own. Well, most of them, anyway.
Quote from: Nexus;957458It depends. It takes me 5-15 mins to create a Hero System character. But it can take others much longer in part due to the range of options being imposing, lack of (familarity) with the system and the desire to optimize more than I do.
Need to optimize is a big issue with a lot of games, for example Pathfinder.
jg
Quote from: jhkim;9572905th and 6th editions concentrated on closing loopholes in 4th edition, and the results were more long-winded and less guidelines.
And that was one of the big problems of those following editions. They focused too much on making official rulings. Instead of leaving that up to being part of the individual GM's role.
The system in the 4th Edition era was supposed to work the way the individual GM wanted it to. It left the burden of ruling on problems with the system up to the individual GM. The rulebook was never supposed to be treated as a law book that took that authority away from the individual GM.
In a 4th Edition game, decades ago, before the release of The Ultimate Martial Artist. I had a player that had seen on the internet about what became in later editions, Lightning Reflexes.
He wanted to divorce Initiative order from Dexterity with a kitbashed construct. And make a character I saw as something that brought too much extra complexity the process of running the game for my taste. A character that would take up many entries on the combat chart. Instead of the usual just one. Which would just add nothing but confusion to running the the game.
So I told the player in no uncertain terms: No. I wouldn't have it.
Bottom line: Nothing is supposed to overrule the GM. The contents of the rulebooks are merely suggestions. The GM is the one that makes the final rulings on how things work for their individual campaign. Not the rulebook.
And a GM certainly has the right to decide how complex they want the characters to be in their campaign. It's part of their role to set the boundries of what is acceptable in their individual campaign. And what is not.
Quote from: James Gillen;957566Need to optimize is a big issue with a lot of games, for example Pathfinder.
jg
System Mastery can make a difference in Hero System like most "crunchy" games. The combination of a abusive player and lenient/Inexperienced GM can really make things go sideways. Its fair to say its a pitfall of the system, the price it pays for its flexibility. You really need a firm hand at the reins. And some maturity (or at least some self control) from all participants doesn't hurt. But I'd say that about allot of games.
Quote from: RunningLaser;956693...
if you hear a loud noise, that's just Hyperman howling in complete victory over this:)
:)
HM
Quote from: Nexus;957458It depends. It takes me 5-15 mins to create a Hero System character. But it can take others much longer in part due to the range of options being imposing, lack of familarit with the system and the desire to optimize more than I do.
It important to have a concept before going in and then it is a matter of finding the right combination of elements to make it happen.
Quote from: estar;957671It important to have a concept before going in and then it is a matter of finding the right combination of elements to make it happen.
Very true.
Quote from: Nexus;957593System Mastery can make a difference in Hero System like most "crunchy" games.
I wonder if that's a working definition of the difference between lite/light and crunchy systems?
Quote from: Tod13;957687I wonder if that's a working definition of the difference between lite/light and crunchy systems?
Depends on the system. The better crunchy ruleset are to written to reflect the reality of the genre and/or setting in detail. But even doing this doesn't make that ruleset magically resistant to a referee who blindly allows the rules as written. ANY RPG run solely via rules as written will stop making sense at some point either generating nonsense results or it feels deficient.
My approach as been if the rules cover what I am trying to do in a campaigns and make sense in the context of that campaign then I will stick with the rules as written. This very much true if I get the sense that the author(s) have thought through the implications of their mechanics. Which in my opinion hold true of Hero System and GURPS.
Quote from: RunningLaser;956693Here's the Hero System 4th edition Bundle of Holding (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Champions4Essentials). It includes the Big Blue Book- yes, that one. Holy sweet fucky indeed!
if you hear a loud noise, that's just Hyperman howling in complete victory over this:)
Slipped in at the last moment and picked this up!
Quote from: Nexus;959968Slipped in at the last moment and picked this up!
A friend of mine got the Dark Champions set for me! I'sa a happy man!