Quote from: CyberzombieI'm not so sure.  I get the feeling that True20 might be more a reaction to some of the sucky ass rules in 3.5, like the more and more tediously miniature-based combat rules.

It, and a lot of the other variants, strike me as having a primary motivation of "the current rules suck and I can damn well do better than that".  I think the hope is that they'll be able to strike out with their own branding (Powered by...), but I don't know that most of them are *expecting* to have a successful branding of their own.  Hoping, but not expecting.

Heh.  That's the only constant in any business: hope you strike a chord with the consumer, but never expect it!

Also, more product tie-ins. The minis were a good start. But I'm sure some marketing genius is wondering why the books don't suggest other products? Like official battlemats (like they put out for D&D minis), WOTC dice bags, "official" dice, etc. D&D players often use a LOT of shit at the table, almost none of which (except the minis and books) are produced by WOTC. I made a poster, for isntance, with terrain symbols and the effects of the terrain types, for quick reference when drawing a quick battle map. Why isn't WOTC selling official posters with such information? And then marketing them directly in their products?

I think that, even if 4E is OGL, 3E will still receive support from other companies.  No matter what 4E is like, some people will prefer 3E.  It may not be huge group, but it will be there.

There would still be a niche market for AD&D products if they could be legally made.

Quote from: Name LipsAlso, more product tie-ins. The minis were a good start. But I'm sure some marketing genius is wondering why the books don't suggest other products? Like official battlemats (like they put out for D&D minis), WOTC dice bags, "official" dice, etc. D&D players often use a LOT of shit at the table, almost none of which (except the minis and books) are produced by WOTC. I made a poster, for isntance, with terrain symbols and the effects of the terrain types, for quick reference when drawing a quick battle map. Why isn't WOTC selling official posters with such information? And then marketing them directly in their products?

They have Official D&D dice actually and TSR used to have Dice Bags (have a bunch from the old Adventure Game circa 98).  I think a lot of it has to do with manufacturing and disribution.  You can get Basic Games and Mini Games at Stores other then Game/Hobby stores but is target going to order a bunch of Gaming Maps, Toys R Us?

Quote from: Phantom StrangerThey have Official D&D dice actually and TSR used to have Dice Bags (have a bunch from the old Adventure Game circa 98).  I think a lot of it has to do with manufacturing and disribution.  You can get Basic Games and Mini Games at Stores other then Game/Hobby stores but is target going to order a bunch of Gaming Maps, Toys R Us?

That's why the books need to hit them hard, by inserting actual rules that use these products, then having order forms or referring to website links to actually buy them.

Quote from: Name LipsThat's why the books need to hit them hard, by inserting actual rules that use these products, then having order forms or referring to website links to actually buy them.

You haven't been reading the new books have you, they have advertisements and support for the other products.  Hit it too hard though and you have the people who are pissy about them even making miniatures being even more pissy.

Quote from: Name LipsI, for one, like the idea of getting a new edition. I hope it has substantial differences from 3.x - differences as big as the differences between 2nd Ed and 3.x.

That's pretty much the polar opposite of what I'd like to see. What I'd like to see is an edition which incorporates all the improvements upon the original 3e system from 3.5 to the various third party contributions. This edition has had perhaps the most extensive field-testing of any RPG ever. This is taking into account the impact the internet has had upon the game - no other edition of any game has had such an extensive, constant, ongoing discussion of its rules, ever. Even taking into account that the vast majority of 3e gamers aren't online, enough are online that problems are quickly identified and fixed in some way or another, whether it's official WotC stuff, a third party publisher's material, or material on a fansite. A new edition as extensively revised as what you propose would esentially toss all of that away. If not all of it, then at least a really substantial part of it. It could be, though, that a new edition that pulled all the foregoing 3.x tweaks and fixes together would result in a game as different from the original 3e as 3e was from 2e.

Oh, as to when a 4th edition might appear...2008 sounds about right to me.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonThat's pretty much the polar opposite of what I'd like to see. What I'd like to see is an edition which incorporates all the improvements upon the original 3e system from 3.5 to the various third party contributions. This edition has had perhaps the most extensive field-testing of any RPG ever. This is taking into account the impact the internet has had upon the game - no other edition of any game has had such an extensive, constant, ongoing discussion of its rules, ever. Even taking into account that the vast majority of 3e gamers aren't online, enough are online that problems are quickly identified and fixed in some way or another, whether it's official WotC stuff, a third party publisher's material, or material on a fansite. A new edition as extensively revised as what you propose would esentially toss all of that away. If not all of it, then at least a really substantial part of it. It could be, though, that a new edition that pulled all the foregoing 3.x tweaks and fixes together would result in a game as different from the original 3e as 3e was from 2e.

But what you're proposing isn't really a new edition, is it, as much as it is a recompiliation of existing rules. It might as well be called "D&D 3.5 Deluxe."

Quote from: ColonelHardissonThat's pretty much the polar opposite of what I'd like to see.

In personal taste, I must side with Name Lips, even with the Swine label staring at me.

I do think however that some version of your vision is more likely and better for WotC.

Look at it this way. Every time D&D comes out with a new edition, they get to market exactly the same books to the core players. Not just the core, but the suppliment books too. From Complete Magic User's Handbook to Tome and Blood to Complete Arcane.

You might think it's better for them, from their point of view, to caplitalize on all the stuff that's already published, but in actuality it's not. If people already have a shitload of suppliments that work for a system, they're less likely to buy any new ones. But you can just change the rules a bit and sell the same people new versions of the suppliments they already have.

Quote from: Name LipsBut what you're proposing isn't really a new edition, is it, as much as it is a recompiliation of existing rules. It might as well be called "D&D 3.5 Deluxe."

Yes, it would be a new edition, in my opinion. Very much so. Like I said, adding in all the material that has been released since 3.0/3.5, and replacing the stuff that doesn't work with stuff that does, would result in an edition more extensively rebuilt than what happened with 1e/2e, and maybe not quite as extensive as the difference between 2e and 3e (though I'd argue that it may well result in a really new edition).

Quote from: Name LipsLook at it this way. Every time D&D comes out with a new edition, they get to market exactly the same books to the core players. Not just the core, but the suppliment books too. From Complete Magic User's Handbook to Tome and Blood to Complete Arcane.

I expect any upgrade from 3.5 and built upon that same core to require a re-issue of all those books. That's a given.

I just don't expect to see the same degree of changes that there were from 2nd to 3rd.

IMO, the differences between 1e AD&D and 2e AD&D were, overall, no more significant than the differences between 3e D&D and 3.5 D&D.  (In both cases, material for either 'edition' could be used with little difficulty with the other 'edition'.)  Indeed, AFAICT, the differences between 3e and 3.5 are greater than those between 1e and 2e.

What a publisher decides to designate as a 'new edition' is rather arbitrary.  (E.g. see the many different 'editions' of CoC.)

Quote from: ColonelHardissonYes, it would be a new edition, in my opinion. Very much so. Like I said, adding in all the material that has been released since 3.0/3.5, and replacing the stuff that doesn't work with stuff that does, would result in an edition more extensively rebuilt than what happened with 1e/2e, and maybe not quite as extensive as the difference between 2e and 3e (though I'd argue that it may well result in a really new edition).

I don't think it would be a "rebuilt" edition. I think it would just be a bloated, cumbersome book. Who needs 4000 spells 2000 feats, and 300 PrCs? I want something a beginner can pick up and start playing in 10 minutes, but spend the next 10 years mastering.

Even with 3.x, which is pretty simple at its core, I feel like I'm teaching a class when I introduce new players. There's just so much for them to take in, I'm amazed they stick with it.

Quote from: AkrasiaWhat a publisher decides to designate as a 'new edition' is rather arbitrary.  (E.g. see the many different 'editions' of CoC.)

Good example.  As far as I can tell, whenever they do a new major print run, they change the layout a bit, clean up a few paragraphs and call it a new edition.  I've played with 4th and 6th edition books at the same table with no noticeable difference.