Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 03:24:35 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.

http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/

Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.

It varies pretty wildly by the author/artist. I can't make any blanket statements for the whole fucking genre.

In Tolkien's Middle Earth, orcs are human beings (at least in the species sense, since elves and humans are the same species) who have been tortured mentally, physically, and spiritually until they've become monsters beholden to the will of Morgoth and Sauron.

In D&D, we get some cross-pollination with the Wild West, Manifest Destiny, and the genocide of the natives... although you can make that comparison with any of D&D's beastmen races. It's very Americana and pulp fiction.

I haven't actually found anything that parallels any specific real human culture outside of subversive works. In WarCraft the peaceful hippie orcs are modeled loosely after Native Americans and Vikings.

Otherwise the orc "culture" and "aesthetic" is a self-iterative mess based on very generic stereotypes of villain barbarians that can't be easily traced back to any specific real human cultural aesthetic. At least not that I could find.

I've read articles claiming that orcs are "coded", but these articles are never actually able to name specific human cultures.

Look at something like this:


This is the stereotypical modern image of the orc. I can't find any specific real human cultural influences here. It's so generically fantasy that any real influences are buried under layers of self-iteration.

Orcs aren't based on any real human cultures, but on a generic fantasy stereotype of what we think barbarians would be like despite actually knowing nothing about history.

The green dude above doesn't have any features that strike me as specifically black or East Asian or whatever. He doesn't have afro-textured hair, he doesn't wear bling, he doesn't hold a gun sideways, he doesn't live next to imposing pyramids, or any of the blatant coding you see in Terra Formars.

Compare that to dwarves, who are commonly coded as Scottish. With accents.

It's really only in discussions about whether orcs are racist or not that I see anybody suggesting we should code orcs as anything. They were never coded as Mongols, for one thing, and I don't think they should be either. That just betrays one's own ignorance of history. That makes about as much sense as suggesting we should code orcs as Western European or European-American colonists.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 04:24:21 PM
Buildling stuff is hard, and there's no guarantee of success.

I ran headlong into this while devising my SST clone that would include a bunch of cyberpunk elements, psychic spies, and uplifted animals, among other things.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 04:25:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 03:24:35 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.

http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/

Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.

It varies pretty wildly by the author/artist. I can't make any blanket statements for the whole fucking genre.

In Tolkien's Middle Earth, orcs are human beings (at least in the species sense, since elves and humans are the same species) who have been tortured mentally, physically, and spiritually until they've become monsters beholden to the will of Morgoth and Sauron.

In D&D, we get some cross-pollination with the Wild West, Manifest Destiny, and the genocide of the natives... although you can make that comparison with any of D&D's beastmen races. It's very Americana and pulp fiction.

I haven't actually found anything that parallels any specific real human culture outside of subversive works. In WarCraft the peaceful hippie orcs are modeled loosely after Native Americans and Vikings.

Otherwise the orc "culture" and "aesthetic" is a self-iterative mess based on very generic stereotypes of villain barbarians that can't be easily traced back to any specific real human cultural aesthetic. At least not that I could find.

I've read articles claiming that orcs are "coded", but these articles are never actually able to name specific human cultures.

Look at something like this:


This is the stereotypical modern image of the orc. I can't find any specific real human cultural influences here. It's so generically fantasy that any real influences are buried under layers of self-iteration.

Orcs aren't based on any real human cultures, but on a generic fantasy stereotype of what we think barbarians would be like despite actually knowing nothing about history.

The green dude above doesn't have any features that strike me as specifically black or East Asian or whatever. He doesn't have afro-textured hair, he doesn't wear bling, he doesn't hold a gun sideways, he doesn't live next to imposing pyramids, or any of the blatant coding you see in Terra Formars.

Compare that to dwarves, who are commonly coded as Scottish. With accents.

It's really only in discussions about whether orcs are racist or not that I see anybody suggesting we should code orcs as anything. They were never coded as Mongols, for one thing, and I don't think they should be either. That just betrays one's own ignorance of history. That makes about as much sense as suggesting we should code orcs as Western European or European-American colonists.

And now you're arguing against your previous argument...

Are you okay? Blink twice if you need rescuing.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 08, 2021, 03:54:25 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 03:43:15 PM
Indeed, Hermano! You know, to be fair, there are times where Box rails against SJW's and makes some strong commentary against the whole nonsense--and then, at other times, he seems to turn completely around and sounds just like an SJW making arguments and commentary full of the SJW BS. It makes me think that Box may be on medications of some kind, you know? His personality and commentary does seem to fluctuate pretty radically at different times.

People whose minds are living in ivory towers get really confused when the barbarians get in amongst them and then the defenestrations start. 

To me, most existing towers and other bastions should be written off as lost causes.  Not only from an effective strategy standpoint but also from the sheer practical nature of the thing.  So the idea is not to try to retake bastions that are completely undermined but rather to establish new bastions that do what the old bastions were supposed to do but haven't in ages.  For games, the easiest, best, and--coincidentally also the most fun--is to run a good game yourself, get other people interested, and get them running games. 

You don't need an online presence for that.  If you grow enough such that you do need one, don't put it on FB or the like.

As history and any fantasy world worth its salt has shown us, the world is littered with fallen bastions that long ago ceased to have any use beyond, perhaps, stripping for raw materials in building a new bastion (or bridge or mill or a bunch of houses in the nearby village that sprung up a century after the bastion fell into disuse).

So I agree with the lesson. Stop trying to resurrect the fallen bastions; including RPG lines lost to the Woke; and build new foundations and bastions upon them. Star Wars eclipsed all its source material like Flash Gordon, Valerian, etc. and someday something will eclipse it. There's no reason a title won't eventually eclipse D&D if it continues down the self-destructive path of Woke... but only if we put in the effort to build those alternatives.

Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.

Translation:

"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"

My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.

Hey, they're welcome to show up if they can keep their attention on the subject at hand; having fun playing games.

Not wanting your time wasted by some asshole's verbal diarrhea =/= needs a safe space.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.

   I could care less if a SJW wants to be annoying, and I suspect everyone in the thread feels the same.  But you also know, everyone who has posted in this thread has said something on this forum that would get you banned on MANY forums these days.   I think the language was wrong in saying "annoy", unless by annoy he meant just banned.   I would not so much call looking for a place to discuss things and allow a bit of friction without a banning a safe space.  It is more like, just a space.

Pretty on-point video came out today: "If The Lord of the Rings Is Racist, So Are Its Critics"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJyN41f93QQ&ab_channel=FoundationforEconomicEducation

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2021, 04:50:09 PM
So I agree with the lesson. Stop trying to resurrect the fallen bastions; including RPG lines lost to the Woke; and build new foundations and bastions upon them. Star Wars eclipsed all its source material like Flash Gordon, Valerian, etc. and someday something will eclipse it. There's no reason a title won't eventually eclipse D&D if it continues down the self-destructive path of Woke... but only if we put in the effort to build those alternatives.

Star Wars, however, is being rebuilt. The latest hit piece, in "The Atlantic", for the first time didn't whine about incels not understanding the greatness of "The Last Jedi" but about how Star Wars was mismanaged by Disney. Many in the industry consider this a sign that the current Lucasfilm management is on their way out and the Mandalorian team is on the way in.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/gross-altman-star-wars-mandalorian/619016/

Ghostbusters was another brand that was in the process of being rebuilt; the pandemic slowed it, but it is interesting how the new "Afterlife" should be a big backpedaling from that dreck we saw in 2016.

The problem I see is how no one learns from another's mistake. The pattern is always the same: a brand gets woke; the fiasco comes down hard; "toxic fans", incels and fellowship are blamed for it (usually by the actors/directors themselves) often with amazing tone deafness (Elizabeth Banks "challenged" men to come and see "Charlie's Angels" the way she went to see movies with male action stars literally while Resident Evil was becoming the most profitable horror franchise ever  ); the fiasco only becomes even harder; backpedaling starts.

And yet everyone must run this gauntlet. The third time someone attempts something only to end up with two broken legs, a dislocated arm and the spine cracked in three points, outside watchers should at the very least pose some questions about how these results come to be. Why this doesn't happen and everyone must experience their own shatter and years of rehabilitation is a mystery.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2021, 01:39:48 PM

Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:12:30 AM
This is it. Out of my entire forum list for 20 years.

Every other forum has been taken by the Wightwokers.

I didn't even know about this place. I fled here.

There's one other place, in my opinion.

Are you familiar with New Zealand agriculture?

You know I thought you actually meant NZ agriculture there for a second.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 05:11:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.

Translation:

"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"

My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.

Fool, when you block out everyone that doesn't meet your purity standards, you become the SJW.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 06:16:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 05:11:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.

Translation:

"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"

My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.

Fool, when you block out everyone that doesn't meet your purity standards, you become the SJW.

Because it's about purity and not about keeping the SJW out.

Also, when you keep the invaders out they win...

Kiss my hairy latino ass.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2021, 05:12:10 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.

Hey, they're welcome to show up if they can keep their attention on the subject at hand; having fun playing games.

Not wanting your time wasted by some asshole's verbal diarrhea =/= needs a safe space.

Ironically, have you noticed how many of the posters here cannot stick to posting about gaming when on the gaming part of this forum? They tend to waste a lot of people's time too.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 06:18:13 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 06:16:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 05:11:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.

Translation:

"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"

My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.

Fool, when you block out everyone that doesn't meet your purity standards, you become the SJW.

Because it's about purity and not about keeping the SJW out.

Also, when you keep the invaders out they win...

Kiss my hairy latino ass.

I know you're politicized, but you're not that obtuse.