OK, from a few other threads here, there seems to be enough of us in agreement that we need places where we can discuss RPG stuff without fear of being overly annoyed by the sjw mob. So where are these places located? What websites have not been so overrun by the woke, that we can gather and discuss gaming subjects without undue interference?
Obviously, there is this forum, but what other places are there out there?
This is it. Out of my entire forum list for 20 years.
Every other forum has been taken by the Wightwokers.
I didn't even know about this place. I fled here.
... what defines an oasis is the fact it's surrounded by a vast desert.
I suspect it's less about us finding other oases than us learning how to irrigate. There is a LOT of desert to green. It's time for us to put on our Stillsuits, and take back what's ours and bring the rest of people to us. It took a long time to get to this point, it will take a long time to get out.
I am banned from a lot of them for racism. I died on the hill of it was racist against people to say orcs were supposed to be fantasy versions of minorities. That the very act of saying that was racist and to stop. That minorities were already in D&D and other rpg's as themselves. Human's come in all types of colors and shapes and were already in game and showed D&D pictures of humans from books and modules who were clearly minority types. That orcs were horrible monsters ect....
It was a nice hill to die on and I'm not sorry for it BUT I won't be able to help create a beachhead any time soon.
Quote from: tenbones on July 08, 2021, 10:15:36 AM
... what defines an oasis is the fact it's surrounded by a vast desert.
I suspect it's less about us finding other oases than us learning how to irrigate. There is a LOT of desert to green. It's time for us to put on our Stillsuits, and take back what's ours and bring the rest of people to us. It took a long time to get to this point, it will take a long time to get out.
This is the way.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
I am banned from a lot of them for racism. I died on the hill of it was racist against people to say orcs were supposed to be fantasy versions of minorities. That the very act of saying that was racist and to stop. That minorities were already in D&D and other rpg's as themselves. Human's come in all types of colors and shapes and were already in game and showed D&D pictures of humans from books and modules who were clearly minority types. That orcs were horrible monsters ect....
It was a nice hill to die on and I'm not sorry for it BUT I won't be able to help create a beachhead any time soon.
That's pretty crazy. If you're (generic "you" here) writing orcs as fantasy versions of black people, then you're writing them wrong. This is why I try to be careful to strip orcs of any qualities that could be potentially perceived as racist coding.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
I am banned from a lot of them for racism. I died on the hill of it was racist against people to say orcs were supposed to be fantasy versions of minorities. That the very act of saying that was racist and to stop. That minorities were already in D&D and other rpg's as themselves. Human's come in all types of colors and shapes and were already in game and showed D&D pictures of humans from books and modules who were clearly minority types. That orcs were horrible monsters ect....
It was a nice hill to die on and I'm not sorry for it BUT I won't be able to help create a beachhead any time soon.
When confronted by knowledge and sound reason; those who claim that all dark skinned monstrous humanoids in RPGs are stand-ins for black people, will scream and shout that your "facts" don't change their "truth".
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 08, 2021, 12:02:41 PM
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
I am banned from a lot of them for racism. I died on the hill of it was racist against people to say orcs were supposed to be fantasy versions of minorities. That the very act of saying that was racist and to stop. That minorities were already in D&D and other rpg's as themselves. Human's come in all types of colors and shapes and were already in game and showed D&D pictures of humans from books and modules who were clearly minority types. That orcs were horrible monsters ect....
It was a nice hill to die on and I'm not sorry for it BUT I won't be able to help create a beachhead any time soon.
When confronted by knowledge and sound reason; those who claim that all dark skinned monstrous humanoids in RPGs are stand-ins for black people, will scream and shout that your "facts" don't change their "truth".
Tolkien's own "mongol-types" quote doesn't help. Even if he was being critical of racism, it's still not a good look to say that (paraphrasing) "orcs resemble Europeans' racist caricatures of Asians."
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.
Go blow yourself.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.
Go blow yourself.
At the time he wrote that, "mongoloid" was a common scientific term for East Asians. In Letter 210, Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". The context makes it clear he wasn't talking about the Mongol Empire, but instead the East Asian phenotypes.
I took "Microaggression" training at work. Basically anything you can say that someone might construe or misconstrue, and take offense to, can't be said in a public context.
Doesn't matter if it is for an imaginary game setting or Current Events.
Greetings!
Ahh, Geesus. Worried about racist caricatures of Asians?
How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.
The Mongols literally slaughtered and enslaved *millions* of Europeans. Historical estimates maintain that the Mongols annihilated 50-90% of the entire population of Ukraine! Poland, Hungary, Austria, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria were all put under the MONGOL YOKE. Russia was dominated for over two hundred years by the Mongol Dominion. Fuck whining about racism, oppression and hurting your fucking feelings. How about getting raped, beaten into the fucking ground and made to grovel in the dirt like an animal? Then, how about just being tortured to death or otherwise KILLED. I'd think there's many things worse than "Racism" or "stereotyping" or whatever crybaby whining bullshit that some of these morons like to go on and on about. MILLIONS of Europeans were raped and carried off into slavery, crushed for the rest of their lives. The Mongol Dominion was very real, and it wasn't nice, sweet, or gentle.
Ahh, the poor bandy-legged Mongolian types! Come the fuck on. Everyone else can have perfectly justified feelings of resentment and revel in caricatures and stereotyping WHITE people everyday of the week--and no one says a damned thing about it. But let any white person anywhere, make any kind of negative framed comment or stereotype concerning whatever minorities, and OH MY GOD! Time to clutch the fucking pearls!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 01:14:20 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.
Go blow yourself.
At the time he wrote that, "mongoloid" was a common scientific term for East Asians. In Letter 210, Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". The context makes it clear he wasn't talking about the Mongol Empire, but instead the East Asian phenotypes.
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
Orcs are also corrupted Elves.
Therefore Mongols = Elves.
But you do you and keep equating all fantasy races with real world people while acusing those who don't see the resemblance of racism.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:12:30 AM
This is it. Out of my entire forum list for 20 years.
Every other forum has been taken by the Wightwokers.
I didn't even know about this place. I fled here.
There's one other place, in my opinion.
Are you familiar with New Zealand agriculture?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 01:14:20 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.
Go blow yourself.
At the time he wrote that, "mongoloid" was a common scientific term for East Asians. In Letter 210, Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". The context makes it clear he wasn't talking about the Mongol Empire, but instead the East Asian phenotypes.
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
Orcs are also corrupted Elves.
Therefore Mongols = Elves.
But you do you and keep equating all fantasy races with real world people while acusing those who don't see the resemblance of racism.
That's not what I said at all, but at this point I wonder why I'm surprised you'd misconstrue what I said.
Tolkien said in no uncertain terms that orcs resembled Europeans' racist caricatures of East Asians. He didn't say they
were caricatures of East Asians, no. He said they
resembled caricatures of East Asians. There's a difference. I don't see the resemblance myself, because I'm not a racist, but those were his words. (And for reference, the Easterlings and the Variags seem to be the closest thing Middle Earth has to fantasy counterparts of Mongols, Huns, and so forth. They're human, not orcs.)
Anyway, I'd like to deliberately move away from any parallels to real world groups. Including the Mongol Empire.
Quote from: Greentongue on July 08, 2021, 01:21:14 PM
I took "Microaggression" training at work. Basically anything you can say that someone might construe or misconstrue, and take offense to, can't be said in a public context.
Doesn't matter if it is for an imaginary game setting or Current Events.
That covers pretty much... anything? Microaggressions remind me of obscenity laws. "I know it when I see it" but everyone has different standards.
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
Greetings!
Ahh, Geesus. Worried about racist caricatures of Asians?
How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.
The Mongols literally slaughtered and enslaved *millions* of Europeans. Historical estimates maintain that the Mongols annihilated 50-90% of the entire population of Ukraine! Poland, Hungary, Austria, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria were all put under the MONGOL YOKE. Russia was dominated for over two hundred years by the Mongol Dominion. Fuck whining about racism, oppression and hurting your fucking feelings. How about getting raped, beaten into the fucking ground and made to grovel in the dirt like an animal? Then, how about just being tortured to death or otherwise KILLED. I'd think there's many things worse than "Racism" or "stereotyping" or whatever crybaby whining bullshit that some of these morons like to go on and on about. MILLIONS of Europeans were raped and carried off into slavery, crushed for the rest of their lives. The Mongol Dominion was very real, and it wasn't nice, sweet, or gentle.
Ahh, the poor bandy-legged Mongolian types! Come the fuck on. Everyone else can have perfectly justified feelings of resentment and revel in caricatures and stereotyping WHITE people everyday of the week--and no one says a damned thing about it. But let any white person anywhere, make any kind of negative framed comment or stereotype concerning whatever minorities, and OH MY GOD! Time to clutch the fucking pearls!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Cry me a river, will ya? Would you like to suggest that China pay reparations to Eastern Europe for the Mongol Empire's war crimes? Put Genghis Khan's millions of descendants on Nuremberg Trials? Or put the continent of Africa on trial for starting the Atlantic slave trade? I can't bring myself to care about this anywhere near as much as you seem to, and I half suspect you made this outrage shit up on the spot because you're addled from exposure to too much SJW noise, and whining about war crimes that occurred many centuries ago isn't going to help anyone
now. And this is not remotely relevant to the topic of roleplaying games.
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.
http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 01:14:20 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.
Go blow yourself.
At the time he wrote that, "mongoloid" was a common scientific term for East Asians. In Letter 210, Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". The context makes it clear he wasn't talking about the Mongol Empire, but instead the East Asian phenotypes.
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
Orcs are also corrupted Elves.
Therefore Mongols = Elves.
But you do you and keep equating all fantasy races with real world people while acusing those who don't see the resemblance of racism.
That's not what I said at all, but at this point I wonder why I'm surprised you'd misconstrue what I said.
Tolkien said in no uncertain terms that orcs resembled Europeans' racist caricatures of East Asians. He didn't say they were caricatures of East Asians, no. He said they resembled caricatures of East Asians. There's a difference. I don't see the resemblance myself, because I'm not a racist, but those were his words. (And for reference, the Easterlings and the Variags seem to be the closest thing Middle Earth has to fantasy counterparts of Mongols, Huns, and so forth. They're human, not orcs.)
Anyway, I'd like to deliberately move away from any parallels to real world groups. Including the Mongol Empire.
Quote from: Greentongue on July 08, 2021, 01:21:14 PM
I took "Microaggression" training at work. Basically anything you can say that someone might construe or misconstrue, and take offense to, can't be said in a public context.
Doesn't matter if it is for an imaginary game setting or Current Events.
That covers pretty much... anything? Microaggressions remind me of obscenity laws. "I know it when I see it" but everyone has different standards.
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
Greetings!
Ahh, Geesus. Worried about racist caricatures of Asians?
How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.
The Mongols literally slaughtered and enslaved *millions* of Europeans. Historical estimates maintain that the Mongols annihilated 50-90% of the entire population of Ukraine! Poland, Hungary, Austria, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria were all put under the MONGOL YOKE. Russia was dominated for over two hundred years by the Mongol Dominion. Fuck whining about racism, oppression and hurting your fucking feelings. How about getting raped, beaten into the fucking ground and made to grovel in the dirt like an animal? Then, how about just being tortured to death or otherwise KILLED. I'd think there's many things worse than "Racism" or "stereotyping" or whatever crybaby whining bullshit that some of these morons like to go on and on about. MILLIONS of Europeans were raped and carried off into slavery, crushed for the rest of their lives. The Mongol Dominion was very real, and it wasn't nice, sweet, or gentle.
Ahh, the poor bandy-legged Mongolian types! Come the fuck on. Everyone else can have perfectly justified feelings of resentment and revel in caricatures and stereotyping WHITE people everyday of the week--and no one says a damned thing about it. But let any white person anywhere, make any kind of negative framed comment or stereotype concerning whatever minorities, and OH MY GOD! Time to clutch the fucking pearls!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Cry me a river, will ya? Would you like to suggest that China pay reparations to Eastern Europe for the Mongol Empire's war crimes? Put Genghis Khan's millions of descendants on Nuremberg Trials? Or put the continent of Africa on trial for starting the Atlantic slave trade? I can't bring myself to care about this anywhere near as much as you seem to, and I half suspect you made this outrage shit up on the spot because you're addled from exposure to too much SJW noise, and whining about war crimes that occurred many centuries ago isn't going to help anyone now. And this is not remotely relevant to the topic of roleplaying games.
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.
http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/
Greetings!
Yeah, Box! ;D
I do get torqued about the "SJW Noise" as they relate real human groups to fantasy races all the time, and it gets exhausting and frustrating. It's always one-sided, however, and always directed at white people saying much of anything. You know the whole drill. And no, I don't favour "reparations" of any kind, by anyone. History is full of conquerors and the defeated, everywhere. That's just the way history has gone, everywhere, for everyone.
As for having a refuge that isn't dominated by SJW's, well, this website is pretty much it. I think it is the best place, and an island of sanity and humour that keeps the SJW's at bay. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 11:36:55 AM
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
I am banned from a lot of them for racism. I died on the hill of it was racist against people to say orcs were supposed to be fantasy versions of minorities. That the very act of saying that was racist and to stop. That minorities were already in D&D and other rpg's as themselves. Human's come in all types of colors and shapes and were already in game and showed D&D pictures of humans from books and modules who were clearly minority types. That orcs were horrible monsters ect....
It was a nice hill to die on and I'm not sorry for it BUT I won't be able to help create a beachhead any time soon.
That's pretty crazy. If you're (generic "you" here) writing orcs as fantasy versions of black people, then you're writing them wrong. This is why I try to be careful to strip orcs of any qualities that could be potentially perceived as racist coding.
In a similar vein - that was also a piece of why I made sure to make the aliens in my space western game very alien - physically & mentally. (Though mostly because the Star Trek & Mass Effect style rubber-forehead-aliens have gotten old IMO.)
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2021, 09:00:35 AM
OK, from a few other threads here, there seems to be enough of us in agreement that we need places where we can discuss RPG stuff without fear of being overly annoyed by the sjw mob. So where are these places located? What websites have not been so overrun by the woke, that we can gather and discuss gaming subjects without undue interference?
Obviously, there is this forum, but what other places are there out there?
It looks like you are basically saying that you need a Safe Space.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on July 08, 2021, 02:59:25 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 11:36:55 AM
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
I am banned from a lot of them for racism. I died on the hill of it was racist against people to say orcs were supposed to be fantasy versions of minorities. That the very act of saying that was racist and to stop. That minorities were already in D&D and other rpg's as themselves. Human's come in all types of colors and shapes and were already in game and showed D&D pictures of humans from books and modules who were clearly minority types. That orcs were horrible monsters ect....
It was a nice hill to die on and I'm not sorry for it BUT I won't be able to help create a beachhead any time soon.
That's pretty crazy. If you're (generic "you" here) writing orcs as fantasy versions of black people, then you're writing them wrong. This is why I try to be careful to strip orcs of any qualities that could be potentially perceived as racist coding.
In a similar vein - that was also a piece of why I made sure to make the aliens in my space western game very alien - physically & mentally. (Though mostly because the Star Trek & Mass Effect style rubber-forehead-aliens have gotten old IMO.)
If nothing else, they're more
interesting when they're truly alien.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 01:14:20 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.
Go blow yourself.
At the time he wrote that, "mongoloid" was a common scientific term for East Asians. In Letter 210, Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". The context makes it clear he wasn't talking about the Mongol Empire, but instead the East Asian phenotypes.
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
Orcs are also corrupted Elves.
Therefore Mongols = Elves.
But you do you and keep equating all fantasy races with real world people while acusing those who don't see the resemblance of racism.
That's not what I said at all, but at this point I wonder why I'm surprised you'd misconstrue what I said.
Tolkien said in no uncertain terms that orcs resembled Europeans' racist caricatures of East Asians. He didn't say they were caricatures of East Asians, no. He said they resembled caricatures of East Asians. There's a difference. I don't see the resemblance myself, because I'm not a racist, but those were his words. (And for reference, the Easterlings and the Variags seem to be the closest thing Middle Earth has to fantasy counterparts of Mongols, Huns, and so forth. They're human, not orcs.)
Anyway, I'd like to deliberately move away from any parallels to real world groups. Including the Mongol Empire.
Nope he said (an I quote) : Tolkien described Orcs as
"...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types"From which we can infer:
Orcs=Degraded and repulsive versions of Mongol-types
Orcs=Corrupted Elves
By the transitive property
Corrupted Elves = Degraded and repulsive versions of Mongol-types
Therefore:
Non degraded or repulsive Mongol-types = Elves.
The man was a linguist, he wrote what he wrote and could have wroten anything else. But you buy onto the SJW narrative.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.
http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/
Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.
http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/
Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.
Greetings!
Indeed, Hermano! You know, to be fair, there are times where Box rails against SJW's and makes some strong commentary against the whole nonsense--and then, at other times, he seems to turn completely around and sounds just like an SJW making arguments and commentary full of the SJW BS. It makes me think that Box may be on medications of some kind, you know? His personality and commentary does seem to fluctuate pretty radically at different times.
And yeah! Fuck the Koolaid! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.
It's ironic that the people that want to 'decolonise' everything and are critical of viewing history solely from a biased 'Western / White' point of view can only view history through a 21st Century American lens. There's more to history than what happened after 1492 and it wasn't all free hugs and safe-spaces until Europeans came along.
Yes, there is a long cultural memory in Europe that the 'bad guys' come from the South and East. That's what Tolkien taps into.
Before the Mongols it was the Magyars and Huns and probably countless other step nomads since those people first learned to ride horses.
And then we have 1000 years of Islamic empires from the South and East conquering all of Spain and as far as Vienna.
As a European I don't hold this against the Mongol people today. Might made right in those days. And people in central Asia have their own stories about evil Alexander conquering them, which is understandable.
I don't have any issue with European pastiches that are prevalent in the fantasy genre but don't come an try to school us about our 'lived experience' as they would say.
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 03:43:15 PM
Indeed, Hermano! You know, to be fair, there are times where Box rails against SJW's and makes some strong commentary against the whole nonsense--and then, at other times, he seems to turn completely around and sounds just like an SJW making arguments and commentary full of the SJW BS. It makes me think that Box may be on medications of some kind, you know? His personality and commentary does seem to fluctuate pretty radically at different times.
People whose minds are living in ivory towers get really confused when the barbarians get in amongst them and then the defenestrations start.
To me, most existing towers and other bastions should be written off as lost causes. Not only from an effective strategy standpoint but also from the sheer practical nature of the thing. So the idea is not to try to retake bastions that are completely undermined but rather to establish new bastions that do what the old bastions were supposed to do but haven't in ages. For games, the easiest, best, and--coincidentally also the most fun--is to run a good game yourself, get other people interested, and get them running games.
You don't need an online presence for that. If you grow enough such that you do need one, don't put it on FB or the like.
Quote from: TimothyWestwind on July 08, 2021, 03:44:55 PM
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.
It's ironic that the people that want to 'decolonise' everything and are critical of viewing history solely from a biased 'Western / White' point of view can only view history through a 21st Century American lens. There's more to history than what happened after 1492 and it wasn't all free hugs and safe-spaces until Europeans came along.
Yes, there is a long cultural memory in Europe that the 'bad guys' come from the South and East. That's what Tolkien taps into.
Before the Mongols it was the Magyars and Huns and probably countless other step nomads since those people first learned to ride horses.
And then we have 1000 years of Islamic empires from the South and East conquering all of Spain and as far as Vienna.
As a European I don't hold this against the Mongol people today. Might made right in those days. And people in central Asia have their own stories about evil Alexander conquering them, which is understandable.
I don't have any issue with European pastiches that are prevalent in the fantasy genre but don't come an try to school us about our 'lived experience' as they would say.
Greetings!
Very true, TimothyWestwind! I agree entirely. That's why I often feel like running my head through a wall out of frustration with so many of the "racist demagogues, and even the garden-variety well-meaning person that argues so myopically from an American or post-1492 context. It's like, geesus, do you people even comprehend how EUROPE was the slave circus and fuck toy for the Asians, the Muslims, the Moors, as well as the white savages of the Vikings from the far north for a thousand years straight? The Huns, the Magyars, the Avars, yeah. Like you said, a LONG line of invaders and tyrants that swept in and conquered for CENTURIES.
Yeah, it's all about having genuine historical perspective, and understanding that people have not always "gotten along" and their relationships have not always been sweet and nice. And respecting that that is ok, too. Stereotypes, caricatures, whatever. I understand how it all develops. Hopefully, nowadays, wherever we are, we can approach things and relationships reasonably and with openness. We are all different people now, from past ancestors, and we live in different times now. The whole lack of genuine historical knowledge and understanding just drives me nuts, my friend! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 03:43:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.
http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/
Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.
Greetings!
Indeed, Hermano! You know, to be fair, there are times where Box rails against SJW's and makes some strong commentary against the whole nonsense--and then, at other times, he seems to turn completely around and sounds just like an SJW making arguments and commentary full of the SJW BS. It makes me think that Box may be on medications of some kind, you know? His personality and commentary does seem to fluctuate pretty radically at different times.
And yeah! Fuck the Koolaid! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Yeah, he does seem to have pretty dramatic mood swings.
To get back on topic.
The same thing is happening in gaming, comics, tv, movies.
The solution is to build new bastions.
In comics the the top selling titles are all Japanese manga. Nobody wants what Marvel and DC are trying to sell. Not because they're 'diverse' but because woke nonsense has a higher priority than good stories and characters. How can Marvel comics sales continue to decline while those movies make billions?
There are many comic book creators who are bypassing the big publishers and setting up their own crowdfunding campaigns, bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars.
In gaming the titles that tick the right boxes win all the awards but the games that focus on quality bring in the sales.
In movies the same thing is happening. Critics dislike Chris Pratt and his new movie the Tomorrow War but audiences are enjoying it.
Kevin Crawford (Star Without Number, World Without Number) doesn't worry about appealing to Twitter mobs, he just makes games people want to buy and play.
Now is the best time to get involved with popular culture.
Write your own comics, create your own games, make your own movies.
Op, you can always try /tg/. If you're willing to weed through the dumb shit, there is actually a lot of good discussion. And it's pretty resistant to silly sjw rhetoric. It is an anonymous board, so it does have its road bumps.
Quote from: TimothyWestwind on July 08, 2021, 04:15:07 PM
To get back on topic.
The same thing is happening in gaming, comics, tv, movies.
The solution is to build new bastions.
Buildling stuff is hard, and there's no guarantee of success. That's why they SJWs infiltrate existing communities instead of building their own.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.
http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/
Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.
It varies pretty wildly by the author/artist. I can't make any blanket statements for the whole fucking genre.
In Tolkien's Middle Earth, orcs are human beings (at least in the species sense, since elves and humans are the same species) who have been tortured mentally, physically, and spiritually until they've become monsters beholden to the will of Morgoth and Sauron.
In D&D, we get some cross-pollination with the Wild West, Manifest Destiny, and the genocide of the natives... although you can make that comparison with any of D&D's beastmen races. It's very Americana and pulp fiction.
I haven't actually found anything that parallels any specific real human culture outside of subversive works. In
WarCraft the peaceful hippie orcs are modeled loosely after Native Americans and Vikings.
Otherwise the orc "culture" and "aesthetic" is a self-iterative mess based on very generic stereotypes of villain barbarians that can't be easily traced back to any specific real human cultural aesthetic. At least not that I could find.
I've read articles claiming that orcs are "coded", but these articles are never actually able to name specific human cultures.
Look at something like this:
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-44d88ea35fecae40316dc544372c5619)
This is the stereotypical modern image of the orc. I can't find any specific real human cultural influences here. It's so generically fantasy that any real influences are buried under layers of self-iteration.
Orcs aren't based on any real human cultures, but on a generic fantasy stereotype of what we think barbarians would be like despite actually knowing nothing about history.
The green dude above doesn't have any features that strike me as specifically black or East Asian or whatever. He doesn't have afro-textured hair, he doesn't wear bling, he doesn't hold a gun sideways, he doesn't live next to imposing pyramids, or any of the blatant coding you see in
Terra Formars. (https://thekenpire.com/2015/03/17/terra-formars-is-an-obscenely-racist-manga-and-anime-series-but-its-sort-of-hilarious/)
Compare that to dwarves, who are commonly coded as Scottish. With accents.
It's really only in discussions about whether orcs are racist or not that I see anybody suggesting we should code orcs as anything. They were never coded as Mongols, for one thing, and I don't think they should be either. That just betrays one's own ignorance of history. That makes about as much sense as suggesting we should code orcs as Western European or European-American colonists.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 04:24:21 PM
Buildling stuff is hard, and there's no guarantee of success.
I ran headlong into this while devising my SST clone that would include a bunch of cyberpunk elements, psychic spies, and uplifted animals, among other things.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 04:25:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.
http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/
Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.
It varies pretty wildly by the author/artist. I can't make any blanket statements for the whole fucking genre.
In Tolkien's Middle Earth, orcs are human beings (at least in the species sense, since elves and humans are the same species) who have been tortured mentally, physically, and spiritually until they've become monsters beholden to the will of Morgoth and Sauron.
In D&D, we get some cross-pollination with the Wild West, Manifest Destiny, and the genocide of the natives... although you can make that comparison with any of D&D's beastmen races. It's very Americana and pulp fiction.
I haven't actually found anything that parallels any specific real human culture outside of subversive works. In WarCraft the peaceful hippie orcs are modeled loosely after Native Americans and Vikings.
Otherwise the orc "culture" and "aesthetic" is a self-iterative mess based on very generic stereotypes of villain barbarians that can't be easily traced back to any specific real human cultural aesthetic. At least not that I could find.
I've read articles claiming that orcs are "coded", but these articles are never actually able to name specific human cultures.
Look at something like this:
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-44d88ea35fecae40316dc544372c5619)
This is the stereotypical modern image of the orc. I can't find any specific real human cultural influences here. It's so generically fantasy that any real influences are buried under layers of self-iteration.
Orcs aren't based on any real human cultures, but on a generic fantasy stereotype of what we think barbarians would be like despite actually knowing nothing about history.
The green dude above doesn't have any features that strike me as specifically black or East Asian or whatever. He doesn't have afro-textured hair, he doesn't wear bling, he doesn't hold a gun sideways, he doesn't live next to imposing pyramids, or any of the blatant coding you see in Terra Formars. (https://thekenpire.com/2015/03/17/terra-formars-is-an-obscenely-racist-manga-and-anime-series-but-its-sort-of-hilarious/)
Compare that to dwarves, who are commonly coded as Scottish. With accents.
It's really only in discussions about whether orcs are racist or not that I see anybody suggesting we should code orcs as anything. They were never coded as Mongols, for one thing, and I don't think they should be either. That just betrays one's own ignorance of history. That makes about as much sense as suggesting we should code orcs as Western European or European-American colonists.
And now you're arguing against your previous argument...
Are you okay? Blink twice if you need rescuing.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 08, 2021, 03:54:25 PM
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 03:43:15 PM
Indeed, Hermano! You know, to be fair, there are times where Box rails against SJW's and makes some strong commentary against the whole nonsense--and then, at other times, he seems to turn completely around and sounds just like an SJW making arguments and commentary full of the SJW BS. It makes me think that Box may be on medications of some kind, you know? His personality and commentary does seem to fluctuate pretty radically at different times.
People whose minds are living in ivory towers get really confused when the barbarians get in amongst them and then the defenestrations start.
To me, most existing towers and other bastions should be written off as lost causes. Not only from an effective strategy standpoint but also from the sheer practical nature of the thing. So the idea is not to try to retake bastions that are completely undermined but rather to establish new bastions that do what the old bastions were supposed to do but haven't in ages. For games, the easiest, best, and--coincidentally also the most fun--is to run a good game yourself, get other people interested, and get them running games.
You don't need an online presence for that. If you grow enough such that you do need one, don't put it on FB or the like.
As history and any fantasy world worth its salt has shown us, the world is littered with fallen bastions that long ago ceased to have any use beyond, perhaps, stripping for raw materials in building a new bastion (or bridge or mill or a bunch of houses in the nearby village that sprung up a century after the bastion fell into disuse).
So I agree with the lesson. Stop trying to resurrect the fallen bastions; including RPG lines lost to the Woke; and build new foundations and bastions upon them. Star Wars eclipsed all its source material like Flash Gordon, Valerian, etc. and someday something will eclipse it. There's no reason a title won't eventually eclipse D&D if it continues down the self-destructive path of Woke... but only if we put in the effort to build those alternatives.
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Translation:
"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Hey, they're welcome to show up if they can keep their attention on the subject at hand; having fun playing games.
Not wanting your time wasted by some asshole's verbal diarrhea =/= needs a safe space.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
I could care less if a SJW wants to be annoying, and I suspect everyone in the thread feels the same. But you also know, everyone who has posted in this thread has said something on this forum that would get you banned on MANY forums these days. I think the language was wrong in saying "annoy", unless by annoy he meant just banned. I would not so much call looking for a place to discuss things and allow a bit of friction without a banning a safe space. It is more like, just a space.
Pretty on-point video came out today: "If The Lord of the Rings Is Racist, So Are Its Critics"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJyN41f93QQ&ab_channel=FoundationforEconomicEducation
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2021, 04:50:09 PM
So I agree with the lesson. Stop trying to resurrect the fallen bastions; including RPG lines lost to the Woke; and build new foundations and bastions upon them. Star Wars eclipsed all its source material like Flash Gordon, Valerian, etc. and someday something will eclipse it. There's no reason a title won't eventually eclipse D&D if it continues down the self-destructive path of Woke... but only if we put in the effort to build those alternatives.
Star Wars, however, is being rebuilt. The latest hit piece, in "The Atlantic", for the first time didn't whine about incels not understanding the greatness of "The Last Jedi" but about how Star Wars was mismanaged by Disney. Many in the industry consider this a sign that the current Lucasfilm management is on their way out and the Mandalorian team is on the way in.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/gross-altman-star-wars-mandalorian/619016/
Ghostbusters was another brand that was in the process of being rebuilt; the pandemic slowed it, but it is interesting how the new "Afterlife" should be a big backpedaling from that dreck we saw in 2016.
The problem I see is how no one learns from another's mistake. The pattern is always the same: a brand gets woke; the fiasco comes down hard; "toxic fans", incels and fellowship are blamed for it (usually by the actors/directors themselves) often with amazing tone deafness (Elizabeth Banks "challenged" men to come and see "Charlie's Angels" the way she went to see movies with male action stars
literally while Resident Evil was becoming the most profitable horror franchise ever ;D); the fiasco only becomes even harder; backpedaling starts.
And yet everyone must run this gauntlet. The third time someone attempts something only to end up with two broken legs, a dislocated arm and the spine cracked in three points, outside watchers should at the very least pose some questions about how these results come to be. Why this doesn't happen and everyone must experience their own shatter and years of rehabilitation is a mystery.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2021, 01:39:48 PM
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:12:30 AM
This is it. Out of my entire forum list for 20 years.
Every other forum has been taken by the Wightwokers.
I didn't even know about this place. I fled here.
There's one other place, in my opinion.
Are you familiar with New Zealand agriculture?
You know I thought you actually meant NZ agriculture there for a second.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Translation:
"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"
My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.
Fool, when you block out everyone that doesn't meet your purity standards, you become the SJW.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 06:16:42 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Translation:
"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"
My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.
Fool, when you block out everyone that doesn't meet your purity standards, you become the SJW.
Because it's about purity and not about keeping the SJW out.
Also, when you keep the invaders out they win...
Kiss my hairy latino ass.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2021, 05:12:10 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Hey, they're welcome to show up if they can keep their attention on the subject at hand; having fun playing games.
Not wanting your time wasted by some asshole's verbal diarrhea =/= needs a safe space.
Ironically, have you noticed how many of the posters here cannot stick to posting about gaming when on the gaming part of this forum? They tend to waste a lot of people's time too.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 06:18:13 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 06:16:42 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Translation:
"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"
My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.
Fool, when you block out everyone that doesn't meet your purity standards, you become the SJW.
Because it's about purity and not about keeping the SJW out.
Also, when you keep the invaders out they win...
Kiss my hairy latino ass.
I know you're politicized, but you're not that obtuse.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 06:20:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 06:18:13 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 06:16:42 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Translation:
"How dare you think of making woke proof insitutions/organizations/spaces! We must be allowed in so we can expel you and destroy everything you like!"
My response? Yep, gatekeeping against the woke is a noble goal, kiss my hairy latino ass.
Fool, when you block out everyone that doesn't meet your purity standards, you become the SJW.
Because it's about purity and not about keeping the SJW out.
Also, when you keep the invaders out they win...
Kiss my hairy latino ass.
I know you're politicized, but you're not that obtuse.
I know you're a fanatic but you're not that dumb, it's not about ideological purity, I mean Grim Jim is a fecking commie and I would gladly game with him. You? not sure you can leave your politics outside.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 06:18:39 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2021, 05:12:10 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Hey, they're welcome to show up if they can keep their attention on the subject at hand; having fun playing games.
Not wanting your time wasted by some asshole's verbal diarrhea =/= needs a safe space.
Ironically, have you noticed how many of the posters here cannot stick to posting about gaming when on the gaming part of this forum? They tend to waste a lot of people's time too.
Because they force you to click, read and respond to those posts right? At gun point maybe?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 06:35:45 PM
Because they force you to click, read and respond to those posts right? At gun point maybe?
The SJWs that you cry about don't do that either.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 07:06:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 06:35:45 PM
Because they force you to click, read and respond to those posts right? At gun point maybe?
The SJWs that you cry about don't do that either.
Correct, they only get in, infest the conventions and have anyone not woke banned, unless you keep your mouth shut, walk on eggs and say: "yes massa."
But you damn well know it's not about ideology, it's about their actions, and since we know they ALWAYS do the same it's reasonable and noble to keep them out.
But, please do keep crying how we're talking about gatekeeping the locustus.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 04:25:34 PM
Compare that to dwarves, who are commonly coded as Scottish. With accents.
A Scot without an accent is just a pasty Englishman with a bad diet.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 04:58:28 PM
Yep, here we have the self-described free speech advocates expressing a need for safe spaces (based on this basic definition: The goal of a safe space is to provide a place where people are not subject to the biases, discrimination, and criticism of the outside world). This seems utterly hypocritical, but wait...these same people are always saying it's the other side that's built on hypocrisy. It's just so hard to be an ultra-right gamer these days, isn't it? Maybe the new "MAGACon" needs to plan on providing emotional support animals too.
Honey! HappyDaze has filled his diaper again! It's your turn to clean it up!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
...
Mongol, Schmongol...
Everyone knows that the Orc's of Myth and Legend are man's remnant memory of Neanderthals.
Put on your tinfoil hats kids, we're going for a ride!
https://treeofwoe.substack.com/p/when-orcs-were-real
Quote from: WHEN ORCS WERE REAL on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
Neanderthals were apex predators. Analysis of isotopes of bone collage has shown that Neanderthal diet was 97% meat. They are estimated to have eaten 4.1 lbs of fresh meat per day. Ample evidence exists to show they used stone-tipped wooden spears to hunt. From the bones littering their caves, we know Neanderthals hunted woolly mammoths, giant cave bears, woolly rhinos, bison, wolves, and even cave lions - the most dangerous and lethal animals on earth.
Neanderthals were cannibals. A number of Neanderthal sites reveal bones that have been cut and cracked open to extract the marrow. While this hypothesis was initially rejected a recent find at El Sidron in Spain revealed numerous Neanderthal skeletons with the unmistakable marks of butchery by cannibals wielding hand axes, knives, and scrapers.
Neanderthals had more robust bones and heavier musculature than Homo Sapiens. They weighed 25% more. They were so heavily muscled that their skeletons had to develop extra thick bones. "One of the most characteristic features of the Neanderthals is the exaggerated massiveness of their trunk and limb bones. All of the preserved bones suggest a strength seldom attained by modern humans..." (quoting paleoanthropologist Erik Trinkaus). "A healthy Neanderthal male could lift an average NFL linebacker over his head and throw him through the goalposts." Neanderthals also evolved extremely thick skulls - "postcranial hyper-robusticity" — that protected them in close-quarter confrontation with prey. They all had kyphosis, with hunched backs, that gave them a distinct profile and gait.
Neanderthal teeth were twice as large as human teeth. According to 2008 anthropologist research, their mouths could open much wider than human mouths, enabling them to take extremely large bites. Judging by the size of the jaw, they had tremendous bite force.
Neanderthals evolved in Ice Age Europe and had specific adaptations to that climate. They had short limbs, large noses, and compact torsos. Most importantly, they were covered with thick fur!
Since no Neanderthal cadaver survives, this point cannot be proven. But Vendramini points out that every primate except Homo Sapiens is covered with fur, and that every cold-adapted mammal during the Ice Ages had thick fur, including mammals that were hairless in Africa, such as the elephant and rhinoceros. There is no reason to believe Neanderthals were hairless except for our desire for them to look like us. The only way Neanderthals could have survived in the Ice Age without fur was if they made thick, protective clothes. Archeologist Mark White points out "Neanderthal clothing would have needed to be more than the ragged loincloth... of popular depiction. Some form of tailoring would have been required..." But Neanderthal sites have yielded "no evidence of needlecraft technology." They weren't making clothes — because they had fur.
The Neanderthal that Vendramini describes is thus a terrifying creature: A hunched cannibalistic predator with large, shining eyes and an animalistic snout, covered by thick fur and massive muscles, built for close combat, hunting by night, with a brutish and guttural voice, and a huge mouth with huge teeth and powerful jaws. It didn't look like Fred Flintstone. It looked like this:
(https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F979ead3a-d76d-474c-bf4b-f4032dfc2c5b_791x297.png)
That, my friends, is an orc. Or a bugbear. Or an ogre. Whatever it is, it's been appearing in our myths and legends for thousands of years. It's the great enemy.
Next time the Orcs = Blacks discussion comes up again on a SJW forum, just cut and paste...
I was unclear earlier, my bad. I'm not thinking of places that don't put up with the sjw bullshit that can be used as safe redoubts, I'm thinking of places where we can expand out from and use to spread the hobby of gaming plus counter all of the lies being told about gaming in the past.
As was said upthread by tenbones and Steven Mitchell
Quote from: tenbones on July 08, 2021, 10:15:36 AM
... what defines an oasis is the fact it's surrounded by a vast desert.
I suspect it's less about us finding other oases than us learning how to irrigate. There is a LOT of desert to green. It's time for us to put on our Stillsuits, and take back what's ours and bring the rest of people to us. It took a long time to get to this point, it will take a long time to get out.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 08, 2021, 03:54:25 PM
People whose minds are living in ivory towers get really confused when the barbarians get in amongst them and then the defenestrations start.
To me, most existing towers and other bastions should be written off as lost causes. Not only from an effective strategy standpoint but also from the sheer practical nature of the thing. So the idea is not to try to retake bastions that are completely undermined but rather to establish new bastions that do what the old bastions were supposed to do but haven't in ages. For games, the easiest, best, and--coincidentally also the most fun--is to run a good game yourself, get other people interested, and get them running games.
You don't need an online presence for that. If you grow enough such that you do need one, don't put it on FB or the like.
So if going out and introducing people to either new games, or even different ways to play the old games that they are accustomed to, then what are the best methods to do this? Put on some Game Days at the local FLGS/Public Library/Community Center/Church/whatever? Mini-cons? Small conventions? How do we gather resources to do this in an affordable manner? Where are those resources found?
Gawd help me, but I am trying to not view this as a "points of Light" campaign in the Real World.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2021, 08:16:27 PM
So if going out and introducing people to either new games, or even different ways to play the old games that they are accustomed to, then what are the best methods to do this? Put on some Game Days at the local FLGS/Public Library/Community Center/Church/whatever? Mini-cons? Small conventions? How do we gather resources to do this in an affordable manner? Where are those resources found?
I can relate some of the methods that have worked well in various indie gaming / story games contexts - which I think might apply to OSR or more broadly traditional games. Obviously, different game styles might call for different organizing, but I can at least relate the experience.
(1) Game Days at local FLGS or other public space -- I've done a bunch of these - notably at FLGS, at a gaming coffee shop in Oakland, and at my local library. Depending on the advertising and the venue, they've worked pretty well. The game store or other venue typically appreciate the interest. This is basically the same thing as a mini-con. The string of events has typically ended when the people volunteering to organize run out of steam, which they inevitably do. On the other hand, nothing lasts forever, and I think they did some good introducing people to games. Asking people to pay some fee can be good for countering organizer burnout. People should be rewarded for their time and effort organizing.
(2) More private meetup-type events -- I loved a series we did called "Nerdly Beach Party" where people who met online went camping together on the California coast and played various indie games. This approach has less public visibility, but can keep up interest and help bond people working together on a forum. Depending on geography, something like this could be done for this forum. I've done that in the past with members of past forums, and it's been fun. I'd love to try gaming with some of the people here. Maybe someone could start a thread about doing some sort of theRPGsite real-life meetup event?
(3) Con-within-a-con -- some people might be leery of this because it's working with existing conventions, but I've seen some pretty successful organizing by creating a sheltered space within another convention. I've seen a few of these, and it's similar to Adventurer's league or other organized play. You have a separate organization and space within a convention, and people can try out the alternative. A common approach for indie games was "Games On Demand" - where instead of signing up slots in advance, you made sure you had enough GMs to run different games in the theme, and then players who were wandering around the con could get hooked into playing. My son tried Dungeon Crawl Classics in a local convention as open gaming in a local convention, for example - this is just taking that to the next level. Get a handful of OSR GMs together, and you have some leverage to get your own con space.
Need a oasis, then jump onto my discord servers. We have a filter room to weed out the sjws and bots. Just pm me.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2021, 08:16:27 PM
I was unclear earlier, my bad. I'm not thinking of places that don't put up with the sjw bullshit that can be used as safe redoubts, I'm thinking of places where we can expand out from and use to spread the hobby of gaming plus counter all of the lies being told about gaming in the past.
If you had said this in the beginning, I'd have been all for it. By all means, spread your word and see if others go for it. What I was calling out was what was essentially "where can we go so we don't have to be afraid of them interfering" which is is pretty much a safe space. I don't think safe spaces are a good idea in general (there are some specific, limited situations where they may be useful), and that applies here too. Not sorry if me calling it for what it is tweaked your taint.
Greetings!
My game table is an SJW-Free Zone. SJW's never even make it on the invite list. My game table is full of "Toxic Masculinity", T-Rexes, Tequila, fine cigars, pipe tobacco, and most everything that drives SJW's to shriek in hysterical despair. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2021, 09:00:35 AM
OK, from a few other threads here, there seems to be enough of us in agreement that we need places where we can discuss RPG stuff without fear of being overly annoyed by the sjw mob. So where are these places located? What websites have not been so overrun by the woke, that we can gather and discuss gaming subjects without undue interference?
Obviously, there is this forum, but what other places are there out there?
Unfortunately, this forum has also been destroyed by the SJWs, albeit indirectly. TheRPGSite used to be the greatest forum for RPG discussion from 2006 to around 2010-2012, but it is now just a shadow of its former self - because we barely talk about games any longer. Look at the threads on display, and it is 90% politics or politics-adjacent. Ten years ago, this place had a message, and actual good, insightful discussions on the practical questions of gaming.
I recognise this is a change that came from outside - the woke invasion of geek hobbies and the great subversion of the Internet is like a Mongol Horde rolling over the gaming landscape - but it did affect the place, and not for the better. Not saying I am not part of the problem, but the problem is there. Every hour we spend bitching about how horrible it is out there, we are not spending on making this place a shining beacon of gaming greatness.
Quote from: Melan on July 09, 2021, 04:33:10 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2021, 09:00:35 AM
OK, from a few other threads here, there seems to be enough of us in agreement that we need places where we can discuss RPG stuff without fear of being overly annoyed by the sjw mob. So where are these places located? What websites have not been so overrun by the woke, that we can gather and discuss gaming subjects without undue interference?
Obviously, there is this forum, but what other places are there out there?
Unfortunately, this forum has also been destroyed by the SJWs, albeit indirectly. TheRPGSite used to be the greatest forum for RPG discussion from 2006 to around 2010-2012, but it is now just a shadow of its former self - because we barely talk about games any longer. Look at the threads on display, and it is 90% politics or politics-adjacent. Ten years ago, this place had a message, and actual good, insightful discussions on the practical questions of gaming.
I recognise this is a change that came from outside - the woke invasion of geek hobbies and the great subversion of the Internet is like a Mongol Horde rolling over the gaming landscape - but it did affect the place, and not for the better. Not saying I am not part of the problem, but the problem is there. Every hour we spend bitching about how horrible it is out there, we are not spending on making this place a shining beacon of gaming greatness.
Greetings!
Well said, Melan! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shasarak on July 08, 2021, 05:48:06 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2021, 01:39:48 PM
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:12:30 AM
This is it. Out of my entire forum list for 20 years.
Every other forum has been taken by the Wightwokers.
I didn't even know about this place. I fled here.
There's one other place, in my opinion.
Are you familiar with New Zealand agriculture?
You know I thought you actually meant NZ agriculture there for a second.
It's a silly place at times, I admit.
'This is Liberty Hall. You can spit on the mat, and call the cat a bastard.'
Quote from: Jaeger on July 08, 2021, 08:02:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
...
Mongol, Schmongol...
Everyone knows that the Orc's of Myth and Legend are man's remnant memory of Neanderthals.
Put on your tinfoil hats kids, we're going for a ride!
https://treeofwoe.substack.com/p/when-orcs-were-real
Quote from: WHEN ORCS WERE REAL on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
Neanderthals were apex predators. Analysis of isotopes of bone collage has shown that Neanderthal diet was 97% meat. They are estimated to have eaten 4.1 lbs of fresh meat per day. Ample evidence exists to show they used stone-tipped wooden spears to hunt. From the bones littering their caves, we know Neanderthals hunted woolly mammoths, giant cave bears, woolly rhinos, bison, wolves, and even cave lions - the most dangerous and lethal animals on earth.
Neanderthals were cannibals. A number of Neanderthal sites reveal bones that have been cut and cracked open to extract the marrow. While this hypothesis was initially rejected a recent find at El Sidron in Spain revealed numerous Neanderthal skeletons with the unmistakable marks of butchery by cannibals wielding hand axes, knives, and scrapers.
Neanderthals had more robust bones and heavier musculature than Homo Sapiens. They weighed 25% more. They were so heavily muscled that their skeletons had to develop extra thick bones. "One of the most characteristic features of the Neanderthals is the exaggerated massiveness of their trunk and limb bones. All of the preserved bones suggest a strength seldom attained by modern humans..." (quoting paleoanthropologist Erik Trinkaus). "A healthy Neanderthal male could lift an average NFL linebacker over his head and throw him through the goalposts." Neanderthals also evolved extremely thick skulls - "postcranial hyper-robusticity" — that protected them in close-quarter confrontation with prey. They all had kyphosis, with hunched backs, that gave them a distinct profile and gait.
Neanderthal teeth were twice as large as human teeth. According to 2008 anthropologist research, their mouths could open much wider than human mouths, enabling them to take extremely large bites. Judging by the size of the jaw, they had tremendous bite force.
Neanderthals evolved in Ice Age Europe and had specific adaptations to that climate. They had short limbs, large noses, and compact torsos. Most importantly, they were covered with thick fur!
Since no Neanderthal cadaver survives, this point cannot be proven. But Vendramini points out that every primate except Homo Sapiens is covered with fur, and that every cold-adapted mammal during the Ice Ages had thick fur, including mammals that were hairless in Africa, such as the elephant and rhinoceros. There is no reason to believe Neanderthals were hairless except for our desire for them to look like us. The only way Neanderthals could have survived in the Ice Age without fur was if they made thick, protective clothes. Archeologist Mark White points out "Neanderthal clothing would have needed to be more than the ragged loincloth... of popular depiction. Some form of tailoring would have been required..." But Neanderthal sites have yielded "no evidence of needlecraft technology." They weren't making clothes — because they had fur.
The Neanderthal that Vendramini describes is thus a terrifying creature: A hunched cannibalistic predator with large, shining eyes and an animalistic snout, covered by thick fur and massive muscles, built for close combat, hunting by night, with a brutish and guttural voice, and a huge mouth with huge teeth and powerful jaws. It didn't look like Fred Flintstone. It looked like this:
(https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F979ead3a-d76d-474c-bf4b-f4032dfc2c5b_791x297.png)
That, my friends, is an orc. Or a bugbear. Or an ogre. Whatever it is, it's been appearing in our myths and legends for thousands of years. It's the great enemy.
Next time the Orcs = Blacks discussion comes up again on a SJW forum, just cut and paste...
Jesus Christ that's horrifying, Jaeger. I'm going to save that and spring it on my players.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 09, 2021, 06:50:34 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on July 08, 2021, 08:02:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
...
Mongol, Schmongol...
Everyone knows that the Orc's of Myth and Legend are man's remnant memory of Neanderthals.
Put on your tinfoil hats kids, we're going for a ride!
https://treeofwoe.substack.com/p/when-orcs-were-real
Quote from: WHEN ORCS WERE REAL on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
Neanderthals were apex predators. Analysis of isotopes of bone collage has shown that Neanderthal diet was 97% meat. They are estimated to have eaten 4.1 lbs of fresh meat per day. Ample evidence exists to show they used stone-tipped wooden spears to hunt. From the bones littering their caves, we know Neanderthals hunted woolly mammoths, giant cave bears, woolly rhinos, bison, wolves, and even cave lions - the most dangerous and lethal animals on earth.
Neanderthals were cannibals. A number of Neanderthal sites reveal bones that have been cut and cracked open to extract the marrow. While this hypothesis was initially rejected a recent find at El Sidron in Spain revealed numerous Neanderthal skeletons with the unmistakable marks of butchery by cannibals wielding hand axes, knives, and scrapers.
Neanderthals had more robust bones and heavier musculature than Homo Sapiens. They weighed 25% more. They were so heavily muscled that their skeletons had to develop extra thick bones. "One of the most characteristic features of the Neanderthals is the exaggerated massiveness of their trunk and limb bones. All of the preserved bones suggest a strength seldom attained by modern humans..." (quoting paleoanthropologist Erik Trinkaus). "A healthy Neanderthal male could lift an average NFL linebacker over his head and throw him through the goalposts." Neanderthals also evolved extremely thick skulls - "postcranial hyper-robusticity" — that protected them in close-quarter confrontation with prey. They all had kyphosis, with hunched backs, that gave them a distinct profile and gait.
Neanderthal teeth were twice as large as human teeth. According to 2008 anthropologist research, their mouths could open much wider than human mouths, enabling them to take extremely large bites. Judging by the size of the jaw, they had tremendous bite force.
Neanderthals evolved in Ice Age Europe and had specific adaptations to that climate. They had short limbs, large noses, and compact torsos. Most importantly, they were covered with thick fur!
Since no Neanderthal cadaver survives, this point cannot be proven. But Vendramini points out that every primate except Homo Sapiens is covered with fur, and that every cold-adapted mammal during the Ice Ages had thick fur, including mammals that were hairless in Africa, such as the elephant and rhinoceros. There is no reason to believe Neanderthals were hairless except for our desire for them to look like us. The only way Neanderthals could have survived in the Ice Age without fur was if they made thick, protective clothes. Archeologist Mark White points out "Neanderthal clothing would have needed to be more than the ragged loincloth... of popular depiction. Some form of tailoring would have been required..." But Neanderthal sites have yielded "no evidence of needlecraft technology." They weren't making clothes — because they had fur.
The Neanderthal that Vendramini describes is thus a terrifying creature: A hunched cannibalistic predator with large, shining eyes and an animalistic snout, covered by thick fur and massive muscles, built for close combat, hunting by night, with a brutish and guttural voice, and a huge mouth with huge teeth and powerful jaws. It didn't look like Fred Flintstone. It looked like this:
(https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F979ead3a-d76d-474c-bf4b-f4032dfc2c5b_791x297.png)
That, my friends, is an orc. Or a bugbear. Or an ogre. Whatever it is, it's been appearing in our myths and legends for thousands of years. It's the great enemy.
Next time the Orcs = Blacks discussion comes up again on a SJW forum, just cut and paste...
Jesus Christ that's horrifying, Jaeger. I'm going to save that and spring it on my players.
I'll add too that's its something so horrific that stories of it crossed continents... i.e. The Wendigo.
Also, supposedly 1-2% of our DNA is Neandertal and certain scientists keep trying to sell "humans willingly settled down and had families with them"... Un. NOPE! That is NOT any sort of consensual.
ETA: The original article is quite interesting and also includes a follow-up on "Why we fear the night" and that they may have been responsible for our population bottleneck c. 50,000 years ago when they hunted us nearly to extinction until the survivors developed more advanced weaponry and fought back (thus why many culture heroes must go and fight a great man-eating beast; one commenter even suggested that the legend of Zeus' thunderbolt is a remembrance of the invention of the atlatl that finally gave us a range advantage over the Neanderthals' greater strength).
Maybe its true; maybe its not... but it is fascinating regardless.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 08, 2021, 08:02:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
...
Mongol, Schmongol...
Everyone knows that the Orc's of Myth and Legend are man's remnant memory of Neanderthals.
Put on your tinfoil hats kids, we're going for a ride!
https://treeofwoe.substack.com/p/when-orcs-were-real
Quote from: WHEN ORCS WERE REAL on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
Neanderthals were apex predators. Analysis of isotopes of bone collage has shown that Neanderthal diet was 97% meat. They are estimated to have eaten 4.1 lbs of fresh meat per day. Ample evidence exists to show they used stone-tipped wooden spears to hunt. From the bones littering their caves, we know Neanderthals hunted woolly mammoths, giant cave bears, woolly rhinos, bison, wolves, and even cave lions - the most dangerous and lethal animals on earth.
Neanderthals were cannibals. A number of Neanderthal sites reveal bones that have been cut and cracked open to extract the marrow. While this hypothesis was initially rejected a recent find at El Sidron in Spain revealed numerous Neanderthal skeletons with the unmistakable marks of butchery by cannibals wielding hand axes, knives, and scrapers.
Neanderthals had more robust bones and heavier musculature than Homo Sapiens. They weighed 25% more. They were so heavily muscled that their skeletons had to develop extra thick bones. "One of the most characteristic features of the Neanderthals is the exaggerated massiveness of their trunk and limb bones. All of the preserved bones suggest a strength seldom attained by modern humans..." (quoting paleoanthropologist Erik Trinkaus). "A healthy Neanderthal male could lift an average NFL linebacker over his head and throw him through the goalposts." Neanderthals also evolved extremely thick skulls - "postcranial hyper-robusticity" — that protected them in close-quarter confrontation with prey. They all had kyphosis, with hunched backs, that gave them a distinct profile and gait.
Neanderthal teeth were twice as large as human teeth. According to 2008 anthropologist research, their mouths could open much wider than human mouths, enabling them to take extremely large bites. Judging by the size of the jaw, they had tremendous bite force.
Neanderthals evolved in Ice Age Europe and had specific adaptations to that climate. They had short limbs, large noses, and compact torsos. Most importantly, they were covered with thick fur!
Since no Neanderthal cadaver survives, this point cannot be proven. But Vendramini points out that every primate except Homo Sapiens is covered with fur, and that every cold-adapted mammal during the Ice Ages had thick fur, including mammals that were hairless in Africa, such as the elephant and rhinoceros. There is no reason to believe Neanderthals were hairless except for our desire for them to look like us. The only way Neanderthals could have survived in the Ice Age without fur was if they made thick, protective clothes. Archeologist Mark White points out "Neanderthal clothing would have needed to be more than the ragged loincloth... of popular depiction. Some form of tailoring would have been required..." But Neanderthal sites have yielded "no evidence of needlecraft technology." They weren't making clothes — because they had fur.
The Neanderthal that Vendramini describes is thus a terrifying creature: A hunched cannibalistic predator with large, shining eyes and an animalistic snout, covered by thick fur and massive muscles, built for close combat, hunting by night, with a brutish and guttural voice, and a huge mouth with huge teeth and powerful jaws. It didn't look like Fred Flintstone. It looked like this:
(https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F979ead3a-d76d-474c-bf4b-f4032dfc2c5b_791x297.png)
That, my friends, is an orc. Or a bugbear. Or an ogre. Whatever it is, it's been appearing in our myths and legends for thousands of years. It's the great enemy.
Next time the Orcs = Blacks discussion comes up again on a SJW forum, just cut and paste...
Maybe - but I'm dubious. One of the major human advantages (from well before Neanderthals) was sweat - which is impossible with fur. Not having evidence of needlecraft (with minimal evidence about Neanderthals at all) it's a huge leap to claim that means that they were furry. Especially since we DO have evidence of their using tools more generally.
And this is why we will lose in the end against the woke.....
Orcs as neanderthals is an interesting concept, but shouldn't it get its own thread?
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 09, 2021, 08:48:12 AM
And this is why we will lose in the end against the woke.....
Orcs as neanderthals is an interesting concept, but shouldn't it get its own thread?
To be fair; Orcs as Neanderthals is WAY more interesting than anything the Woke are currently caterwauling about.
Its all just "Oppressor THIS! Oppressor THAT! Equity NOW!"
Near forgotten stories from days of long ago where the Neanderthals were literally the origins of our nightmares? Epic.
ETA: It also goes to the point too I think of how much the Woke has affected things even here when half of Pundits videos aren't about great new gaming ideas or how to turn these ideas into viable concepts, but rants against the Woke.
I know its not as easy as "ignore them and they'll go away" but, for God's sake, some days I just have to not come here or various other sites because the latest antics of the Woke is ALL anyone talks about.
Quote from: Melan on July 09, 2021, 04:33:10 AM
Unfortunately, this forum has also been destroyed by the SJWs, albeit indirectly. TheRPGSite used to be the greatest forum for RPG discussion from 2006 to around 2010-2012, but it is now just a shadow of its former self - because we barely talk about games any longer. Look at the threads on display, and it is 90% politics or politics-adjacent. Ten years ago, this place had a message, and actual good, insightful discussions on the practical questions of gaming.
I recognise this is a change that came from outside - the woke invasion of geek hobbies and the great subversion of the Internet is like a Mongol Horde rolling over the gaming landscape - but it did affect the place, and not for the better. Not saying I am not part of the problem, but the problem is there. Every hour we spend bitching about how horrible it is out there, we are not spending on making this place a shining beacon of gaming greatness.
The intolerance of opposing viewpoints has also spilled over into many gaming threads, even ones with no real connection to the culture war.
Not sure how to fix it. There just doesn't seem to be enough activity in gaming-related threads. But trying to resist making everything about the culture war is probably worthwhile, even if it doesn't add anything.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 09:24:59 AM
It also goes to the point too I think of how much the Woke has affected things even here when half of Pundits videos aren't about great new gaming ideas or how to turn these ideas into viable concepts, but rants against the Woke.
I know its not as easy as "ignore them and they'll go away" but, for God's sake, some days I just have to not come here or various other sites because the latest antics of the Woke is ALL anyone talks about.
To be fair, at least half of Pundit's old blog posts in the 2000s were rants against the Swine. I felt like he actually got a little more practical-gaming in recent years as he has published more, especially around Lion & Dragon.
I think the problem is more in moderation than his posts. He has been allowing and encouraging more political posting in the RPG forum. He keeps that it has to be ostensibly gaming-related, but even ostensibly gaming-related allows a lot of politically-charged content.
Quote from: jhkim on July 09, 2021, 01:14:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 09:24:59 AM
It also goes to the point too I think of how much the Woke has affected things even here when half of Pundits videos aren't about great new gaming ideas or how to turn these ideas into viable concepts, but rants against the Woke.
I know its not as easy as "ignore them and they'll go away" but, for God's sake, some days I just have to not come here or various other sites because the latest antics of the Woke is ALL anyone talks about.
To be fair, at least half of Pundit's old blog posts in the 2000s were rants against the Swine. I felt like he actually got a little more practical-gaming in recent years as he has published more, especially around Lion & Dragon.
I think the problem is more in moderation than his posts. He has been allowing and encouraging more political posting in the RPG forum. He keeps that it has to be ostensibly gaming-related, but even ostensibly gaming-related allows a lot of politically-charged content.
And we should stick only to non-political content on gaming and say nothing against the woke infestation of our hobby...
Yeah, no, you might not like it (and no one forces you to click on those threads) but it's free speech, something you leftists are against.
The problem is the intent of having politics-free gaming... or?
If all we do is spend time hand-wringing over the stupid shit leftists do, in our hobby, while they control the hobby, we lose.
I mean, how many times do we need to talk about Orcs as Black People? This is a Leftist Belief. This is not our belief. This stupid bullshit gets trotted out year after year.
And they have ALREADY changed D&D to reflect their beliefs. This is why the Brand of D&D is lost. I say let them have it. Why are we concerned about it? Why are you on their ship while they set it on fire? By engaging in these dumb discussions, it gives them exactly what they want - for us to be 'whargarbled' over their latest stupid bullshit, while they pillage your favorite <insert x here> in front of your eyes.
Do we *need* to discuss how they're morons and idiots? We already know they're wrong. But we need to exemplify what we believe. And we need to create the place and define it for those that are looking for the Bastion from the shitstorm they've created.
We should be talking about why orcs are cool (yeah I like the Neanderthal-orc.) Instead of whinging about their stupid takes on what we like that are traditional gaming tropes - we should be turning up the volume.
We should have threads about all-new all-different Evil Drow. We should have threads about cool takes on Asian elements in D&D-style fantasy. We should be talking about more sandbox elements. We should be preaching about good GM practices for new GM's.
This is how this Bastion grows. And we should take it seriously as it's apparently the LAST Bastion. Wasting our time only talking about the moron Leftists and their fucked up weirdo claims is not enough. We need to reinforce what we know is Good. So when the new refugees arrive, they have something to hold onto other than a bunch of old gamers screeching about shit the weirdos do. We need to be people of action. And it can be made as simple as talking about good gaming over stupid gaming.
We should be talking about
1) Good systems and why.
2) Interesting takes on unconventional games.
3) Adventure ideas
4) GMing best practices for beginners, intermediate and advanced GM's
5) Cool monsters and their use in-game.
6) Game scaling over time. Nothing could be better than figuring out GMing between the BESMI-scale of gaming *across* other systems. And identifying which systems are even capable of this kind of scaling.
7) Cool ideas for gear and cultural expressions of established gear.
8) New fantasy cultures - races, nations, analogs, non-analogs, which systems they appear in. Home-brewed ones!
9) Publication processes - we should dig this out of the Development forum because now more than ever we need people to step up in whatever capacity they're willing, to learn the process of making good games.
10) DEFUND the assholes. Stop giving them your money - put your resources towards materials that do not support the lunatics. Invite new gamers to your table and show them The Way.
We need to be more pro-active about talking about OUR stuff, than talking about their idiotic shit.
I have a soft spot for the villainous orcs from WarCraft 1 and 2. Because sometimes playing the alien conquistadors is cool and fun.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 08, 2021, 08:02:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.
...
Mongol, Schmongol...
Everyone knows that the Orc's of Myth and Legend are man's remnant memory of Neanderthals.
Put on your tinfoil hats kids, we're going for a ride!
https://treeofwoe.substack.com/p/when-orcs-were-real
Quote from: WHEN ORCS WERE REAL on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM
Neanderthals were apex predators. Analysis of isotopes of bone collage has shown that Neanderthal diet was 97% meat. They are estimated to have eaten 4.1 lbs of fresh meat per day. Ample evidence exists to show they used stone-tipped wooden spears to hunt. From the bones littering their caves, we know Neanderthals hunted woolly mammoths, giant cave bears, woolly rhinos, bison, wolves, and even cave lions - the most dangerous and lethal animals on earth.
Neanderthals were cannibals. A number of Neanderthal sites reveal bones that have been cut and cracked open to extract the marrow. While this hypothesis was initially rejected a recent find at El Sidron in Spain revealed numerous Neanderthal skeletons with the unmistakable marks of butchery by cannibals wielding hand axes, knives, and scrapers.
Neanderthals had more robust bones and heavier musculature than Homo Sapiens. They weighed 25% more. They were so heavily muscled that their skeletons had to develop extra thick bones. "One of the most characteristic features of the Neanderthals is the exaggerated massiveness of their trunk and limb bones. All of the preserved bones suggest a strength seldom attained by modern humans..." (quoting paleoanthropologist Erik Trinkaus). "A healthy Neanderthal male could lift an average NFL linebacker over his head and throw him through the goalposts." Neanderthals also evolved extremely thick skulls - "postcranial hyper-robusticity" — that protected them in close-quarter confrontation with prey. They all had kyphosis, with hunched backs, that gave them a distinct profile and gait.
Neanderthal teeth were twice as large as human teeth. According to 2008 anthropologist research, their mouths could open much wider than human mouths, enabling them to take extremely large bites. Judging by the size of the jaw, they had tremendous bite force.
Neanderthals evolved in Ice Age Europe and had specific adaptations to that climate. They had short limbs, large noses, and compact torsos. Most importantly, they were covered with thick fur!
Since no Neanderthal cadaver survives, this point cannot be proven. But Vendramini points out that every primate except Homo Sapiens is covered with fur, and that every cold-adapted mammal during the Ice Ages had thick fur, including mammals that were hairless in Africa, such as the elephant and rhinoceros. There is no reason to believe Neanderthals were hairless except for our desire for them to look like us. The only way Neanderthals could have survived in the Ice Age without fur was if they made thick, protective clothes. Archeologist Mark White points out "Neanderthal clothing would have needed to be more than the ragged loincloth... of popular depiction. Some form of tailoring would have been required..." But Neanderthal sites have yielded "no evidence of needlecraft technology." They weren't making clothes — because they had fur.
The Neanderthal that Vendramini describes is thus a terrifying creature: A hunched cannibalistic predator with large, shining eyes and an animalistic snout, covered by thick fur and massive muscles, built for close combat, hunting by night, with a brutish and guttural voice, and a huge mouth with huge teeth and powerful jaws. It didn't look like Fred Flintstone. It looked like this:
(https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F979ead3a-d76d-474c-bf4b-f4032dfc2c5b_791x297.png)
That, my friends, is an orc. Or a bugbear. Or an ogre. Whatever it is, it's been appearing in our myths and legends for thousands of years. It's the great enemy.
Next time the Orcs = Blacks discussion comes up again on a SJW forum, just cut and paste...
Holy crap! Thanks for posting this. This is good stuff.
Quote from: tenbones on July 09, 2021, 02:13:29 PM
The problem is the intent of having politics-free gaming... or?
If all we do is spend time hand-wringing over the stupid shit leftists do, in our hobby, while they control the hobby, we lose.
I mean, how many times do we need to talk about Orcs as Black People? This is a Leftist Belief. This is not our belief. This stupid bullshit gets trotted out year after year.
And they have ALREADY changed D&D to reflect their beliefs. This is why the Brand of D&D is lost. I say let them have it. Why are we concerned about it? Why are you on their ship while they set it on fire? By engaging in these dumb discussions, it gives them exactly what they want - for us to be 'whargarbled' over their latest stupid bullshit, while they pillage your favorite <insert x here> in front of your eyes.
Do we *need* to discuss how they're morons and idiots? We already know they're wrong. But we need to exemplify what we believe. And we need to create the place and define it for those that are looking for the Bastion from the shitstorm they've created.
We should be talking about why orcs are cool (yeah I like the Neanderthal-orc.) Instead of whinging about their stupid takes on what we like that are traditional gaming tropes - we should be turning up the volume.
We should have threads about all-new all-different Evil Drow. We should have threads about cool takes on Asian elements in D&D-style fantasy. We should be talking about more sandbox elements. We should be preaching about good GM practices for new GM's.
This is how this Bastion grows. And we should take it seriously as it's apparently the LAST Bastion. Wasting our time only talking about the moron Leftists and their fucked up weirdo claims is not enough. We need to reinforce what we know is Good. So when the new refugees arrive, they have something to hold onto other than a bunch of old gamers screeching about shit the weirdos do. We need to be people of action. And it can be made as simple as talking about good gaming over stupid gaming.
We should be talking about
1) Good systems and why.
2) Interesting takes on unconventional games.
3) Adventure ideas
4) GMing best practices for beginners, intermediate and advanced GM's
5) Cool monsters and their use in-game.
6) Game scaling over time. Nothing could be better than figuring out GMing between the BESMI-scale of gaming *across* other systems. And identifying which systems are even capable of this kind of scaling.
7) Cool ideas for gear and cultural expressions of established gear.
8) New fantasy cultures - races, nations, analogs, non-analogs, which systems they appear in. Home-brewed ones!
9) Publication processes - we should dig this out of the Development forum because now more than ever we need people to step up in whatever capacity they're willing, to learn the process of making good games.
10) DEFUND the assholes. Stop giving them your money - put your resources towards materials that do not support the lunatics. Invite new gamers to your table and show them The Way.
We need to be more pro-active about talking about OUR stuff, than talking about their idiotic shit.
Thanks tenbones for this. I was going to come say something similar but you said it more succinctly. I had to decide for myself a bit ago not to engage or even visit other sites. Especially when I got a 30 day ban on big purple for merely saying that we can change the sexual orientation of any character in a published book if we want (I was blamed for straight washing and a trump supporter and summarily given the ban by one of those awesome psychic know it all mods). It's not worth me getting mad about. What do I do to combat it? Your list is good. I too believe that the WotC led D&D is dead. Well good. I still see Pundit get blasted on big purple and most are just regurgitating the hate, just accepting without knowing facts for themselves. Ah well.
Quote from: tenbones on July 09, 2021, 02:13:29 PM
Do we *need* to discuss how they're morons and idiots?
I don't think we do, but Pundit sets the tone here, and I can point to five recent videos on Ravenloft that show he disagrees with me. However, that's because the outrage gets him viewers and every viewer gets fed advertising for his products and ultimately makes him money. That's not a bad thing for him or a bad purpose for his videos. However, much as you discussed, it's not something that is worthwhile to continue on these forums (which, for most of us, are not about selling our product). I would be very happy to see posts here go more toward promoting gaming, and there are some here that try (SHARK does some great gaming posts) but others that really don't (or just don't find any interesting gaming discussions that last long enough to bother with).
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 09, 2021, 02:51:43 PM
Thanks tenbones for this. I was going to come say something similar but you said it more succinctly. I had to decide for myself a bit ago not to engage or even visit other sites. Especially when I got a 30 day ban on big purple for merely saying that we can change the sexual orientation of any character in a published book if we want (I was blamed for straight washing and a trump supporter and summarily given the ban by one of those awesome psychic know it all mods). It's not worth me getting mad about. What do I do to combat it? Your list is good. I too believe that the WotC led D&D is dead. Well good. I still see Pundit get blasted on big purple and most are just regurgitating the hate, just accepting without knowing facts for themselves. Ah well.
I welcome you and everyone else to the start of us taking our hobby back.
Do what you can be it at your table, on these forums, or starting your own thing. Share it with everyone. Let's not waste our time and energy on them. *WE* are the heart of this hobby. Not them.
If we stand around pretending our games and our GMing are better while letting them co-opt the next generation of players, we have no one to blame when their idiotic plan works. Yes, they have a headstart, but we got the experience. Look, how many of us play D&D exclusively? The response is the same:
RUN awesome games that WotC doesn't actively produce. Most of us grew up before WotC was even a thing. We KNOW how to do this. It's now all hands on deck to create campaigns, products, curate groups of players to define OUR gaming habits. We're up against an NPC army, and it's time for us to go full Dynasty Warriors on them with our conversion swords of our own construction.
Welcome to the fight!
Remember - give them no time. Give them no resources.
THEY do this to
US already. And that's why they're they've gained ground. They have no interest in debate, nor do they have principles. They have useful idiots that parrot their bullshit at us in the pretense of having discussion, when in reality all they do is get us talking about their stupid narratives.
Time for everyone to pull up their big-boy/girl pants and say GTFO. Grab some dice. Grab some pencils. Hang with the people that like to actually game, and maybe publish their own shit and pull people to US. *LIKE WE USED TO*.
They are the parasites that killed St. Gary's Dream. We are the ones that lived, breathedm realized that dream and helped sustain it. Time for us to do it again - FOR US, and BY US.
The time for whining and looking at one another is fine and dandy for having a short-term drinking binge of shit-beer and home-made dirt brew. It's time to sober up and get to work. I will keep saying this.
Quote from: tenbones on July 09, 2021, 02:13:29 PM
The problem is the intent of having politics-free gaming... or?
If all we do is spend time hand-wringing over the stupid shit leftists do, in our hobby, while they control the hobby, we lose.
I mean, how many times do we need to talk about Orcs as Black People? This is a Leftist Belief. This is not our belief. This stupid bullshit gets trotted out year after year.
And they have ALREADY changed D&D to reflect their beliefs. This is why the Brand of D&D is lost. I say let them have it. Why are we concerned about it? Why are you on their ship while they set it on fire? By engaging in these dumb discussions, it gives them exactly what they want - for us to be 'whargarbled' over their latest stupid bullshit, while they pillage your favorite <insert x here> in front of your eyes.
Do we *need* to discuss how they're morons and idiots? We already know they're wrong. But we need to exemplify what we believe. And we need to create the place and define it for those that are looking for the Bastion from the shitstorm they've created.
We should be talking about why orcs are cool (yeah I like the Neanderthal-orc.) Instead of whinging about their stupid takes on what we like that are traditional gaming tropes - we should be turning up the volume.
We should have threads about all-new all-different Evil Drow. We should have threads about cool takes on Asian elements in D&D-style fantasy. We should be talking about more sandbox elements. We should be preaching about good GM practices for new GM's.
This is how this Bastion grows. And we should take it seriously as it's apparently the LAST Bastion. Wasting our time only talking about the moron Leftists and their fucked up weirdo claims is not enough. We need to reinforce what we know is Good. So when the new refugees arrive, they have something to hold onto other than a bunch of old gamers screeching about shit the weirdos do. We need to be people of action. And it can be made as simple as talking about good gaming over stupid gaming.
We should be talking about
1) Good systems and why.
2) Interesting takes on unconventional games.
3) Adventure ideas
4) GMing best practices for beginners, intermediate and advanced GM's
5) Cool monsters and their use in-game.
6) Game scaling over time. Nothing could be better than figuring out GMing between the BESMI-scale of gaming *across* other systems. And identifying which systems are even capable of this kind of scaling.
7) Cool ideas for gear and cultural expressions of established gear.
8) New fantasy cultures - races, nations, analogs, non-analogs, which systems they appear in. Home-brewed ones!
9) Publication processes - we should dig this out of the Development forum because now more than ever we need people to step up in whatever capacity they're willing, to learn the process of making good games.
10) DEFUND the assholes. Stop giving them your money - put your resources towards materials that do not support the lunatics. Invite new gamers to your table and show them The Way.
We need to be more pro-active about talking about OUR stuff, than talking about their idiotic shit.
Thanks Tenbones for bringing everything back on course.
I think we should still ridicule the shit out of any one who tries to espouse their woke nonesense on these forums. But I agree with all of your points above.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 09, 2021, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 09, 2021, 02:13:29 PM
Do we *need* to discuss how they're morons and idiots?
I don't think we do, but Pundit sets the tone here, and I can point to five recent videos on Ravenloft that show he disagrees with me. However, that's because the outrage gets him viewers and every viewer gets fed advertising for his products and ultimately makes him money. That's not a bad thing for him or a bad purpose for his videos. However, much as you discussed, it's not something that is worthwhile to continue on these forums (which, for most of us, are not about selling our product). I would be very happy to see posts here go more toward promoting gaming, and there are some here that try (SHARK does some great gaming posts) but others that really don't (or just don't find any interesting gaming discussions that last long enough to bother with).
Sure Pundit has other reasons. But that doesn't mean *WE* have to spend our time doing it.
No I agree with you - I'm guilty of a lot of this shit too. But frankly, as this thread stands - this is Reality Time. And either you're the type of person that accepts reality or you don't. And if you accept this reality, it should be readily apparent this is not the time to sit around allowing the ideologues that have ruined this hobby to frame our discussions in the last place where we can have them. Because that means we're circled and effectively have given up.
Pundit sets the tone because he's already doing his part. He's publishing, and trying as he can to get more people on board with his stuff. Venger Satanis is too, as are others.
I'm talking about the rest of us getting more strategic. I'm talking about overtly creating our own culture of gaming that exists to support what we want. I'm working on my own project which I intend on publishing under on a very well established system, and I also plan on making a house system for my brand. The OSR in many ways has proven it can be done and how - we need to be that second-wind to push things outside of the largely traditional D&D-system into other realms. You can't beat WotC/D&D with simply having better systems. You have to create a culture around new games and settings and *actively* market and bring new players into the fold.
What makes RPGSite important is EXACTLY for the reason that we're all here: we have been cast out of the Purple Cave, and for good reason. And this place is our last stand. We can sit here and rub our asses about the Purple Bootprint on it. Or we can take it for what it really is: a badge of honor. Because it is. They're the fucking weirdos. And for the last decade+ we've been sitting here talking/laughing/raging about it while their kind has dismantled our hobby. Sure we got the OSR! But I say we need to hit them where it hurts by taking their players away by better gaming with better games WE make.
I'm less interested in drama. In fact I don't even care about it anymore. I don't care who fucked over Zak, and why Pundit does what we does, or is D&D racist. We *already* know the answers to these things. While we hem-and-haw about them, we've ceded the ground to our detractors that hang on the nuts of these corporate designed homogenized pap they call an RPG.
I say fuck all that. We got more important stuff to do, including taking back OUR narratives over what we know is good. We need to stop hanging on the puerile and start talking about the important stuff.
We can't let the OSR just be about "how to reskin your favorite D&D edition". YES those things matter. But it also means we have to discuss what D&D Fantasy IS - this is where we spend most of our time whinging with the SJW's. But instead of talking up what we know is true - we end up talking about what they castigate us for believing. What gets lost is the very kernel of what really is important: reimagining D&D on different systems (that hopefully everyone will have their own flavors of) played OUR way. This will passively give us the broadest net with which to catch new gamers and those cast out of the Purple Cathedral with their fresh boot-prints on their asses.
Then we gotta do outreach. I'm a HUGE supporter of Venger's Non-GenCon idea. We need more of them. This would be a great place to organize such things. We need to participate in them. We need to get new players at our tables - IRL or virtually.
There is enough creative firepower on this forum to launch our own publications. It's ALL right here in front of us. Or we can stand around here angrily circle-jerking about the weirdos that circle-jerk on us.
I'd rather do the former.
We can be the "Punk Rock" of gaming. With edgy branding, and a dark mystique. All the kids will see our denim and leather jackets with our favorite game logos pained on them, and will want to see what it is all about.
We could be total Chads. "Your game has death saves?" [snorts, drinks his beer in one gulp, then rides off on his motorcycle]
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 07:46:49 PM
We can be the "Punk Rock" of gaming. With edgy branding, and a dark mystique. All the kids will see our denim and leather jackets with our favorite game logos pained on them, and will want to see what it is all about.
We could be total Chads. "Your game has death saves?" [snorts, drinks his beer in one gulp, then rides off on his motorcycle]
Ummm... no. That's lame. Just ask Doc Sammy.
Based on various bits of evidence, dark and edgy only sells in good times when youth feel they have to manufacture danger to find meaning. When times are bad people go looking for heroics and escape from the mundane. There's a reason Star Wars exploded in the late 70's and why dark and edgy was at its zenith in the late 80's-early 90's and why Lord of the Rings in Dec 2001 and Spider-Man in spring of 2002 caught the cultural zeitgeist... after 9/11 people were looking for reassurance and heroes, not Edge.
If the youth are any indication the up and coming generation is set to be marginally more conservative than their parents; you can only swing the pendulum so far before kids find it easier to rebel by going the opposite direction.
It's the reason I'm expressly going Superversive with my own system and setting; heroes are heroic, people are basically good, courage, honor and virtue matters, beauty, true love and hope are real and though it takes struggle, good triumphs in the end.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 07:46:49 PM
We can be the "Punk Rock" of gaming. With edgy branding, and a dark mystique. All the kids will see our denim and leather jackets with our favorite game logos pained on them, and will want to see what it is all about.
We could be total Chads. "Your game has death saves?" [snorts, drinks his beer in one gulp, then rides off on his motorcycle]
Ummm... no. That's lame. Just ask Doc Sammy.
Based on various bits of evidence, dark and edgy only sells in good times when youth feel they have to manufacture danger to find meaning. When times are bad people go looking for heroics and escape from the mundane. There's a reason Star Wars exploded in the late 70's and why dark and edgy was at its zenith in the late 80's-early 90's and why Lord of the Rings in Dec 2001 and Spider-Man in spring of 2002 caught the cultural zeitgeist... after 9/11 people were looking for reassurance and heroes, not Edge.
If the youth are any indication the up and coming generation is set to be marginally more conservative than their parents; you can only swing the pendulum so far before kids find it easier to rebel by going the opposite direction.
It's the reason I'm expressly going Superversive with my own system and setting; heroes are heroic, people are basically good, courage, honor and virtue matters, beauty, true love and hope are real and though it takes struggle, good triumphs in the end.
I see what you are saying Chris 24601. Makes sense.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 07:46:49 PM
We can be the "Punk Rock" of gaming. With edgy branding, and a dark mystique. All the kids will see our denim and leather jackets with our favorite game logos pained on them, and will want to see what it is all about.
We could be total Chads. "Your game has death saves?" [snorts, drinks his beer in one gulp, then rides off on his motorcycle]
Ummm... no. That's lame. Just ask Doc Sammy.
Based on various bits of evidence, dark and edgy only sells in good times when youth feel they have to manufacture danger to find meaning. When times are bad people go looking for heroics and escape from the mundane. There's a reason Star Wars exploded in the late 70's and why dark and edgy was at its zenith in the late 80's-early 90's and why Lord of the Rings in Dec 2001 and Spider-Man in spring of 2002 caught the cultural zeitgeist... after 9/11 people were looking for reassurance and heroes, not Edge.
If the youth are any indication the up and coming generation is set to be marginally more conservative than their parents; you can only swing the pendulum so far before kids find it easier to rebel by going the opposite direction.
It's the reason I'm expressly going Superversive with my own system and setting; heroes are heroic, people are basically good, courage, honor and virtue matters, beauty, true love and hope are real and though it takes struggle, good triumphs in the end.
In Current Year, what's more Punk Rock and Edgy than rebelling against the postmodernist nihilism with good oldfashioned heroics?
Chris 24601, I fixed it for you:
"Oh, your system has death saves? How quaint." [kneels down and lays hands on a crippled child, healing him instantly. Then wings of light spring forth from his shoulderblades and he takes off into the sunset.]
I'm sorry, but am I the only one reading the title of this thread as Bastards of Gaming? ;D
Quote from: Jamfke on July 09, 2021, 09:54:21 PM
I'm sorry, but am I the only one reading the title of this thread as Bastards of Gaming? ;D
Maybe we are the Bastards of gaming?
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 09:01:22 PM
Chris 24601, I fixed it for you:
"Oh, your system has death saves? How quaint." [kneels down and lays hands on a crippled child, healing him instantly. Then wings of light spring forth from his shoulderblades and he takes off into the sunset.]
Still beats the Grimdark "while you were gone raiding the enemy camp to save the village, the main body of raiders hit the village, beheaded the men, raped the women to death after burning the children alive in front of their parents."
There's a balance to be struck. Easy heroics aren't any more satisfying in the long run than "Life Sucks, Then You Die!"
If the heroes decide to defend the town by bravely going off to hit the villains where they live, in a Superversive game if they succeed then they'll have successfully saved the town, not had it destroyed anyway.
The Woke thrive on subversion of western storytelling; the heroes are every bit the bastards as the villains. Everyone is selfish and out for themselves. Those who embrace justice or honor or virtue are depicted as deluded fools. The world is ugly and love is a lie you tell yourself and all the struggles to make things better ultimately come to naught or were meaningless to the final outcome... See Game of Thrones (the tv series, though the books only get a pass because they're not actually complete and haven't yet failed utterly) for the embodiment of this nihilistic garbage.
The counter to that is not even greater nihilism (you'll never outdo the spiritual annihilation that is the end state of Woke); it is to re-embrace the classic values embodied in fantasy as I laid out previously and play TO them rather than against. The only useful purpose of deconstruction is if you actually intend to do a reconstruction afterwards... otherwise you've created nothing, just like the Woke create nothing... they only destroy.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 09:01:22 PM
Chris 24601, I fixed it for you:
"Oh, your system has death saves? How quaint." [kneels down and lays hands on a crippled child, healing him instantly. Then wings of light spring forth from his shoulderblades and he takes off into the sunset.]
Still beats the Grimdark "while you were gone raiding the enemy camp to save the village, the main body of raiders hit the village, beheaded the men, raped the women to death after burning the children alive in front of their parents."
There's a balance to be struck. Easy heroics aren't any more satisfying in the long run than "Life Sucks, Then You Die!"
If the heroes decide to defend the town by bravely going off to hit the villains where they live, in a Superversive game if they succeed then they'll have successfully saved the town, not had it destroyed anyway.
The Woke thrive on subversion of western storytelling; the heroes are every bit the bastards as the villains. Everyone is selfish and out for themselves. Those who embrace justice or honor or virtue are depicted as deluded fools. The world is ugly and love is a lie you tell yourself and all the struggles to make things better ultimately come to naught or were meaningless to the final outcome... See Game of Thrones (the tv series, though the books only get a pass because they're not actually complete and haven't yet failed utterly) for the embodiment of this nihilistic garbage.
The counter to that is not even greater nihilism (you'll never outdo the spiritual annihilation that is the end state of Woke); it is to re-embrace the classic values embodied in fantasy as I laid out previously and play TO them rather than against. The only useful purpose of deconstruction is if you actually intend to do a reconstruction afterwards... otherwise you've created nothing, just like the Woke create nothing... they only destroy.
Re GoT: In that case the books will get a pass forever, The winds of Winter will never be finished by GRRM, much less the series.
I agree, we need more romanticism not more nihilism.
GRR doesn't have to finish the series. He already got paid, and he's clearly too busy virtue signalling on Twitter to give a damn about his own creation.
Watch for the prequel that nobody asked for though.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 11:24:46 PM
GRR doesn't have to finish the series. He already got paid, and he's clearly too busy virtue signalling on Twitter to give a damn about his own creation.
Watch for the prequel that nobody asked for though.
Oh yeah baby, he's getting money (millions I bet) for those series no one wanted.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
The Woke thrive on subversion of western storytelling; the heroes are every bit the bastards as the villains. Everyone is selfish and out for themselves. Those who embrace justice or honor or virtue are depicted as deluded fools. The world is ugly and love is a lie you tell yourself and all the struggles to make things better ultimately come to naught or were meaningless to the final outcome... See Game of Thrones (the tv series, though the books only get a pass because they're not actually complete and haven't yet failed utterly) for the embodiment of this nihilistic garbage.
The counter to that is not even greater nihilism (you'll never outdo the spiritual annihilation that is the end state of Woke); it is to re-embrace the classic values embodied in fantasy as I laid out previously and play TO them rather than against. The only useful purpose of deconstruction is if you actually intend to do a reconstruction afterwards... otherwise you've created nothing, just like the Woke create nothing... they only destroy.
It depends what you're going for. There is an alternate view to just run the games you enjoy rather than trying to make them specifically anti-woke.
Plus, it seems to me that TV shows like Supergirl and Steven Universe are widely considered woke, and they don't seem to fit that pattern. Whatever else their faults, their heroes are idealistic, not bastards.
Quote from: tenbones on July 09, 2021, 05:02:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 09, 2021, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 09, 2021, 02:13:29 PM
Do we *need* to discuss how they're morons and idiots?
I don't think we do, but Pundit sets the tone here, and I can point to five recent videos on Ravenloft that show he disagrees with me. However, that's because the outrage gets him viewers and every viewer gets fed advertising for his products and ultimately makes him money. That's not a bad thing for him or a bad purpose for his videos. However, much as you discussed, it's not something that is worthwhile to continue on these forums (which, for most of us, are not about selling our product). I would be very happy to see posts here go more toward promoting gaming, and there are some here that try (SHARK does some great gaming posts) but others that really don't (or just don't find any interesting gaming discussions that last long enough to bother with).
Sure Pundit has other reasons. But that doesn't mean *WE* have to spend our time doing it.
No I agree with you - I'm guilty of a lot of this shit too. But frankly, as this thread stands - this is Reality Time. And either you're the type of person that accepts reality or you don't. And if you accept this reality, it should be readily apparent this is not the time to sit around allowing the ideologues that have ruined this hobby to frame our discussions in the last place where we can have them. Because that means we're circled and effectively have given up.
Pundit sets the tone because he's already doing his part. He's publishing, and trying as he can to get more people on board with his stuff. Venger Satanis is too, as are others.
I'm talking about the rest of us getting more strategic. I'm talking about overtly creating our own culture of gaming that exists to support what we want. I'm working on my own project which I intend on publishing under on a very well established system, and I also plan on making a house system for my brand. The OSR in many ways has proven it can be done and how - we need to be that second-wind to push things outside of the largely traditional D&D-system into other realms. You can't beat WotC/D&D with simply having better systems. You have to create a culture around new games and settings and *actively* market and bring new players into the fold.
What makes RPGSite important is EXACTLY for the reason that we're all here: we have been cast out of the Purple Cave, and for good reason. And this place is our last stand. We can sit here and rub our asses about the Purple Bootprint on it. Or we can take it for what it really is: a badge of honor. Because it is. They're the fucking weirdos. And for the last decade+ we've been sitting here talking/laughing/raging about it while their kind has dismantled our hobby. Sure we got the OSR! But I say we need to hit them where it hurts by taking their players away by better gaming with better games WE make.
I'm less interested in drama. In fact I don't even care about it anymore. I don't care who fucked over Zak, and why Pundit does what we does, or is D&D racist. We *already* know the answers to these things. While we hem-and-haw about them, we've ceded the ground to our detractors that hang on the nuts of these corporate designed homogenized pap they call an RPG.
I say fuck all that. We got more important stuff to do, including taking back OUR narratives over what we know is good. We need to stop hanging on the puerile and start talking about the important stuff.
We can't let the OSR just be about "how to reskin your favorite D&D edition". YES those things matter. But it also means we have to discuss what D&D Fantasy IS - this is where we spend most of our time whinging with the SJW's. But instead of talking up what we know is true - we end up talking about what they castigate us for believing. What gets lost is the very kernel of what really is important: reimagining D&D on different systems (that hopefully everyone will have their own flavors of) played OUR way. This will passively give us the broadest net with which to catch new gamers and those cast out of the Purple Cathedral with their fresh boot-prints on their asses.
Then we gotta do outreach. I'm a HUGE supporter of Venger's Non-GenCon idea. We need more of them. This would be a great place to organize such things. We need to participate in them. We need to get new players at our tables - IRL or virtually.
There is enough creative firepower on this forum to launch our own publications. It's ALL right here in front of us. Or we can stand around here angrily circle-jerking about the weirdos that circle-jerk on us.
I'd rather do the former.
I made a thread exploring this exact idea, from a perspective of investment and building of infrastructure, and people of course were concerned about the financial risk (and I agree, no need to start out with a major distribution hub) or the effect of investment. I think there is still something in this idea, both regarding pooling of on some level of financial leverage and creative talent. I have a feeling there are people here with the skills to both build an infrastructure for distribution as well as creative talent to put out material. IMO just putting out adventure length material consistently is a good start. Fires only need a spark to start.
Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2021, 03:08:20 AM
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Plus, it seems to me that TV shows like Supergirl and Steven Universe are widely considered woke, and they don't seem to fit that pattern. Whatever else their faults, their heroes are idealistic, not bastards.
Don't know Steven, but Supergirl is idealistic in the SJW/marxist sense. i.e. She is a stand in for the purist of the pure.
She stands for Truth to Power, Social justice, and the Virtue-Signaling Way. She represents how people could be if they would just see reason and live SJW values every moment of every day.
Also, Supergirls sister is a lesbian. (If you didn't know this already, do not worry. Just wait a few scenes; they'll tell you.)
Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2021, 03:08:20 AM
It depends what you're going for. There is an alternate view to just run the games you enjoy rather than trying to make them specifically anti-woke.
Making a game anti-woke does not have to be public act.
In my opinion it is actually better to simply have a hardline anti-woke policy behind the scenes, and just sell your game publicly on its gaming merits.
If you put out a solid game with good content, those looking for anti-woke RPG's will recognize yours for what it is, and for what it isn't.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 10, 2021, 03:43:37 AM
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I made a thread exploring this exact idea, from a perspective of investment and building of infrastructure, and people of course were concerned about the financial risk (and I agree, no need to start out with a major distribution hub) or the effect of investment.... I have a feeling there are people here with the skills to both build an infrastructure for distribution as well as creative talent to put out material. IMO just putting out adventure length material consistently is a good start. Fires only need a spark to start.
I think that this is an area that needs thought. We have great games, but it is the supplement, scenario, AP, sourcebook churn that keeps guys like Kevin Crawford from making anything resembling a dent in the big players market share.
Even a company like Free League with lots of RPG's to its credit, falls very short in this area.
One of the great virtues of the OSR is that it is very diffuse. And in my opinion it is starting to actually get more creative now that outright retro cloning is tapering off.
But sooner or later if you want to take down Goliath, you are going to have to back a winner.
I think that gaming out what goalposts that future 'David' RPG has to be able to reach in order to have a reasonable chance of becoming a successful giant-slayer is a worthy thought exercise.
Especially since we have the benefit for learning from RPG history of what has and hasn't worked for the big players in the hobby.
Why not edgy and romantic, heroic and grim, and more? Not all in the same game, of course. Part of the decreasing appeal of the "woke" products is that they are woke. Part of the decreasing appeal is that because they are woke they are preaching the same boring stuff and often built by committee with no artistic vision or talent. (Or perhaps more precisely, built with a process that tends to stifle whatever talent happens to be present under the rest of the committee's agenda.)
I daresay that for most of the GM's and even people doing some of their own design, there is a much wider converge of "I could have fun in your game" than "That's the way I would have done it." That is, real diversity of ideas and artistic tastes--not the fake "diversity" of the woke.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2021, 05:12:10 PM
Hey, they're welcome to show up if they can keep their attention on the subject at hand; having fun playing games.
Problem is. They wont. They will go to such a con specifically to either undermine it. Or in worse case scenario. Sabotage it by doing the very things they accuse you of and claiming they ARE one of you. Seen this done before during the prior iteration of this stupid and seen it again with the current.
Hell we've seen it here on this fora with nuts waltzing in expecting to see racism and hate crimes and when they see none of that they start making the claims themselves.