We can be the "Punk Rock" of gaming.  With edgy branding, and a dark mystique. All the kids will see our denim and leather jackets with our favorite game logos pained on them, and will want to see what it is all about. 

We could be total Chads. "Your game has death saves?" [snorts, drinks his beer in one gulp, then rides off on his motorcycle]

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 07:46:49 PM
We can be the "Punk Rock" of gaming.  With edgy branding, and a dark mystique. All the kids will see our denim and leather jackets with our favorite game logos pained on them, and will want to see what it is all about. 

We could be total Chads. "Your game has death saves?" [snorts, drinks his beer in one gulp, then rides off on his motorcycle]

Ummm... no. That's lame. Just ask Doc Sammy.

Based on various bits of evidence, dark and edgy only sells in good times when youth feel they have to manufacture danger to find meaning. When times are bad people go looking for heroics and escape from the mundane. There's a reason Star Wars exploded in the late 70's and why dark and edgy was at its zenith in the late 80's-early 90's and why Lord of the Rings in Dec 2001 and Spider-Man in spring of 2002 caught the cultural zeitgeist... after 9/11 people were looking for reassurance and heroes, not Edge.

If the youth are any indication the up and coming generation is set to be marginally more conservative than their parents; you can only swing the pendulum so far before kids find it easier to rebel by going the opposite direction.

It's the reason I'm expressly going Superversive with my own system and setting; heroes are heroic, people are basically good, courage, honor and virtue matters, beauty, true love and hope are real and though it takes struggle, good triumphs in the end.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 08:18:34 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 07:46:49 PM
We can be the "Punk Rock" of gaming.  With edgy branding, and a dark mystique. All the kids will see our denim and leather jackets with our favorite game logos pained on them, and will want to see what it is all about. 

We could be total Chads. "Your game has death saves?" [snorts, drinks his beer in one gulp, then rides off on his motorcycle]

Ummm... no. That's lame. Just ask Doc Sammy.

Based on various bits of evidence, dark and edgy only sells in good times when youth feel they have to manufacture danger to find meaning. When times are bad people go looking for heroics and escape from the mundane. There's a reason Star Wars exploded in the late 70's and why dark and edgy was at its zenith in the late 80's-early 90's and why Lord of the Rings in Dec 2001 and Spider-Man in spring of 2002 caught the cultural zeitgeist... after 9/11 people were looking for reassurance and heroes, not Edge.

If the youth are any indication the up and coming generation is set to be marginally more conservative than their parents; you can only swing the pendulum so far before kids find it easier to rebel by going the opposite direction.

It's the reason I'm expressly going Superversive with my own system and setting; heroes are heroic, people are basically good, courage, honor and virtue matters, beauty, true love and hope are real and though it takes struggle, good triumphs in the end.

I see what you are saying Chris 24601.  Makes sense.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 08:18:34 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 07:46:49 PM
We can be the "Punk Rock" of gaming.  With edgy branding, and a dark mystique. All the kids will see our denim and leather jackets with our favorite game logos pained on them, and will want to see what it is all about. 

We could be total Chads. "Your game has death saves?" [snorts, drinks his beer in one gulp, then rides off on his motorcycle]

Ummm... no. That's lame. Just ask Doc Sammy.

Based on various bits of evidence, dark and edgy only sells in good times when youth feel they have to manufacture danger to find meaning. When times are bad people go looking for heroics and escape from the mundane. There's a reason Star Wars exploded in the late 70's and why dark and edgy was at its zenith in the late 80's-early 90's and why Lord of the Rings in Dec 2001 and Spider-Man in spring of 2002 caught the cultural zeitgeist... after 9/11 people were looking for reassurance and heroes, not Edge.

If the youth are any indication the up and coming generation is set to be marginally more conservative than their parents; you can only swing the pendulum so far before kids find it easier to rebel by going the opposite direction.

It's the reason I'm expressly going Superversive with my own system and setting; heroes are heroic, people are basically good, courage, honor and virtue matters, beauty, true love and hope are real and though it takes struggle, good triumphs in the end.

In Current Year, what's more Punk Rock and Edgy than rebelling against the postmodernist nihilism with good oldfashioned heroics?

Chris 24601, I fixed it for you:

"Oh, your system has death saves?  How quaint." [kneels down and lays hands on a crippled child, healing him instantly. Then wings of light spring forth from his shoulderblades and he takes off into the sunset.]

I'm sorry, but am I the only one reading the title of this thread as Bastards of Gaming?

Quote from: Jamfke on July 09, 2021, 09:54:21 PM
I'm sorry, but am I the only one reading the title of this thread as Bastards of Gaming?

Maybe we are the Bastards of gaming?

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 09:01:22 PM
Chris 24601, I fixed it for you:

"Oh, your system has death saves?  How quaint." [kneels down and lays hands on a crippled child, healing him instantly. Then wings of light spring forth from his shoulderblades and he takes off into the sunset.]

Still beats the Grimdark "while you were gone raiding the enemy camp to save the village, the main body of raiders hit the village, beheaded the men, raped the women to death after burning the children alive in front of their parents."

There's a balance to be struck. Easy heroics aren't any more satisfying in the long run than "Life Sucks, Then You Die!"

If the heroes decide to defend the town by bravely going off to hit the villains where they live, in a Superversive game if they succeed then they'll have successfully saved the town, not had it destroyed anyway.

The Woke thrive on subversion of western storytelling; the heroes are every bit the bastards as the villains. Everyone is selfish and out for themselves. Those who embrace justice or honor or virtue are depicted as deluded fools. The world is ugly and love is a lie you tell yourself and all the struggles to make things better ultimately come to naught or were meaningless to the final outcome... See Game of Thrones (the tv series, though the books only get a pass because they're not actually complete and haven't yet failed utterly) for the embodiment of this nihilistic garbage.

The counter to that is not even greater nihilism (you'll never outdo the spiritual annihilation that is the end state of Woke); it is to re-embrace the classic values embodied in fantasy as I laid out previously and play TO them rather than against. The only useful purpose of deconstruction is if you actually intend to do a reconstruction afterwards... otherwise you've created nothing, just like the Woke create nothing... they only destroy.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 10:50:23 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 09:01:22 PM
Chris 24601, I fixed it for you:

"Oh, your system has death saves?  How quaint." [kneels down and lays hands on a crippled child, healing him instantly. Then wings of light spring forth from his shoulderblades and he takes off into the sunset.]

Still beats the Grimdark "while you were gone raiding the enemy camp to save the village, the main body of raiders hit the village, beheaded the men, raped the women to death after burning the children alive in front of their parents."

There's a balance to be struck. Easy heroics aren't any more satisfying in the long run than "Life Sucks, Then You Die!"

If the heroes decide to defend the town by bravely going off to hit the villains where they live, in a Superversive game if they succeed then they'll have successfully saved the town, not had it destroyed anyway.

The Woke thrive on subversion of western storytelling; the heroes are every bit the bastards as the villains. Everyone is selfish and out for themselves. Those who embrace justice or honor or virtue are depicted as deluded fools. The world is ugly and love is a lie you tell yourself and all the struggles to make things better ultimately come to naught or were meaningless to the final outcome... See Game of Thrones (the tv series, though the books only get a pass because they're not actually complete and haven't yet failed utterly) for the embodiment of this nihilistic garbage.

The counter to that is not even greater nihilism (you'll never outdo the spiritual annihilation that is the end state of Woke); it is to re-embrace the classic values embodied in fantasy as I laid out previously and play TO them rather than against. The only useful purpose of deconstruction is if you actually intend to do a reconstruction afterwards... otherwise you've created nothing, just like the Woke create nothing... they only destroy.

Re GoT: In that case the books will get a pass forever, The winds of Winter will never be finished by GRRM, much less the series.

I agree, we need more romanticism not more nihilism.

GRR doesn't have to finish the series.  He already got paid, and he's clearly too busy virtue signalling on Twitter to give a damn about his own creation. 

Watch for the prequel that nobody asked for though.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 09, 2021, 11:24:46 PM
GRR doesn't have to finish the series.  He already got paid, and he's clearly too busy virtue signalling on Twitter to give a damn about his own creation. 

Watch for the prequel that nobody asked for though.

Oh yeah baby, he's getting money (millions I bet) for those series no one wanted.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 09, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
The Woke thrive on subversion of western storytelling; the heroes are every bit the bastards as the villains. Everyone is selfish and out for themselves. Those who embrace justice or honor or virtue are depicted as deluded fools. The world is ugly and love is a lie you tell yourself and all the struggles to make things better ultimately come to naught or were meaningless to the final outcome... See Game of Thrones (the tv series, though the books only get a pass because they're not actually complete and haven't yet failed utterly) for the embodiment of this nihilistic garbage.

The counter to that is not even greater nihilism (you'll never outdo the spiritual annihilation that is the end state of Woke); it is to re-embrace the classic values embodied in fantasy as I laid out previously and play TO them rather than against. The only useful purpose of deconstruction is if you actually intend to do a reconstruction afterwards... otherwise you've created nothing, just like the Woke create nothing... they only destroy.

It depends what you're going for. There is an alternate view to just run the games you enjoy rather than trying to make them specifically anti-woke.

Plus, it seems to me that TV shows like Supergirl and Steven Universe are widely considered woke, and they don't seem to fit that pattern. Whatever else their faults, their heroes are idealistic, not bastards.

Quote from: tenbones on July 09, 2021, 05:02:25 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 09, 2021, 02:53:44 PM

Quote from: tenbones on July 09, 2021, 02:13:29 PM
Do we *need* to discuss how they're morons and idiots?

I don't think we do, but Pundit sets the tone here, and I can point to five recent videos on Ravenloft that show he disagrees with me. However, that's because the outrage gets him viewers and every viewer gets fed advertising for his products and ultimately makes him money. That's not a bad thing for him or a bad purpose for his videos. However, much as you discussed, it's not something that is worthwhile to continue on these forums (which, for most of us, are not about selling our product). I would be very happy to see posts here go more toward promoting gaming, and there are some here that try (SHARK does some great gaming posts) but others that really don't (or just don't find any interesting gaming discussions that last long enough to bother with).

Sure Pundit has other reasons. But that doesn't mean *WE* have to spend our time doing it.

No I agree with you - I'm guilty of a lot of this shit too. But frankly, as this thread stands - this is Reality Time. And either you're the type of person that accepts reality or you don't. And if you accept this reality, it should be readily apparent this is not the time to sit around allowing the ideologues that have ruined this hobby to frame our discussions in the last place where we can have them. Because that means we're circled and effectively have given up.

Pundit sets the tone because he's already doing his part. He's publishing, and trying as he can to get more people on board with his stuff. Venger Satanis is too, as are others.

I'm talking about the rest of us getting more strategic. I'm talking about overtly creating our own culture of gaming that exists to support what we want. I'm working on my own project which I intend on publishing under on a very well established system, and I also plan on making a house system for my brand. The OSR in many ways has proven it can be done and how - we need to be that second-wind to push things outside of the largely traditional D&D-system into other realms. You can't beat WotC/D&D with simply having better systems. You have to create a culture around new games and settings and *actively* market and bring new players into the fold.

What makes RPGSite important is EXACTLY for the reason that we're all here: we have been cast out of the Purple Cave, and for good reason. And this place is our last stand. We can sit here and rub our asses about the Purple Bootprint on it. Or we can take it for what it really is: a badge of honor. Because it is. They're the fucking weirdos. And for the last decade+ we've been sitting here talking/laughing/raging about it while their kind has dismantled our hobby. Sure we got the OSR! But I say we need to hit them where it hurts by taking their players away by  better gaming with better games WE make.

I'm less interested in drama. In fact I don't even care about it anymore. I don't care who fucked over Zak, and why Pundit does what we does, or is D&D racist. We *already* know the answers to these things. While we hem-and-haw about them, we've ceded the ground to our detractors that hang on the nuts of these corporate designed homogenized pap they call an RPG.

I say fuck all that. We got more important stuff to do, including taking back OUR narratives over what we know is good. We need to stop hanging on the puerile and start talking about the important stuff.

We can't let the OSR just be about "how to reskin your favorite D&D edition". YES those things matter.  But it also means we have to discuss what D&D Fantasy IS - this is where we spend most of our time whinging with the SJW's. But instead of talking up what we know is true - we end up talking about what they castigate us for believing. What gets lost is the very kernel of what really is important: reimagining D&D on different systems (that hopefully everyone will have their own flavors of) played OUR way. This will passively give us the broadest net with which to catch new gamers and those cast out of the Purple Cathedral with their fresh boot-prints on their asses.

Then we gotta do outreach. I'm a HUGE supporter of Venger's Non-GenCon idea. We need more of them. This would be a great place to organize such things. We need to participate in them. We need to get new players at our tables - IRL or virtually.

There is enough creative firepower on this forum to launch our own publications. It's ALL right here in front of us. Or we can stand around here angrily circle-jerking about the weirdos that circle-jerk on us.

I'd rather do the former.

  I made a thread exploring this exact idea, from a perspective of investment and building of infrastructure, and people of course were concerned about the financial risk (and I agree, no need to start out with a major distribution hub) or the effect of investment.  I think there is still something in this idea, both regarding pooling of on some level of financial leverage and creative talent.  I have a feeling there are people here with the skills to both build an infrastructure for distribution as well as creative talent to put out material.  IMO just putting out adventure length material consistently is a good start.   Fires only need a spark to start.

Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2021, 03:08:20 AM
...
Plus, it seems to me that TV shows like Supergirl and Steven Universe are widely considered woke, and they don't seem to fit that pattern. Whatever else their faults, their heroes are idealistic, not bastards.

Don't know Steven, but Supergirl is idealistic in the SJW/marxist sense. i.e. She is a stand in for the purist of the pure.

She stands for Truth to Power, Social justice, and the Virtue-Signaling Way. She represents how people could be if they would just see reason and live SJW values every moment of every day.

Also, Supergirls sister is a lesbian. (If you didn't know this already, do not worry. Just wait a few scenes; they'll tell you.)

Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2021, 03:08:20 AM

It depends what you're going for. There is an alternate view to just run the games you enjoy rather than trying to make them specifically anti-woke.

Making a game anti-woke does not have to be public act.

In my opinion it is actually better to simply have a hardline anti-woke policy behind the scenes, and just sell your game publicly on its gaming merits.

If you put out a solid game with good content, those looking for anti-woke RPG's will recognize yours for what it is, and for what it isn't.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 10, 2021, 03:43:37 AM
...
  I made a thread exploring this exact idea, from a perspective of investment and building of infrastructure, and people of course were concerned about the financial risk (and I agree, no need to start out with a major distribution hub) or the effect of investment.... I have a feeling there are people here with the skills to both build an infrastructure for distribution as well as creative talent to put out material.  IMO just putting out adventure length material consistently is a good start.   Fires only need a spark to start.

I think that this is an area that needs thought. We have great games, but it is the supplement, scenario, AP, sourcebook churn that keeps guys like Kevin Crawford from making anything resembling a dent in the big players market share.

Even a company like Free League with lots of RPG's to its credit, falls very short in this area.

One of the great virtues of the OSR is that it is very diffuse. And in my opinion it is starting to actually get more creative now that outright retro cloning is tapering off.

But sooner or later if you want to take down Goliath, you are going to have to back a winner.

I think that gaming out what goalposts that future 'David' RPG has to be able to reach in order to have a reasonable chance of becoming a successful giant-slayer is a worthy thought exercise.

Especially since we have the benefit for learning from RPG history of what has and hasn't worked for the big players in the hobby.

Why not edgy and romantic, heroic and grim, and more?  Not all in the same game, of course.  Part of the decreasing appeal of the "woke" products is that they are woke.  Part of the decreasing appeal is that because they are woke they are preaching the same boring stuff and often built by committee with no artistic vision or talent.  (Or perhaps more precisely, built with a process that tends to stifle whatever talent happens to be present under the rest of the committee's agenda.)

I daresay that for most of the GM's and even people doing some of their own design, there is a much wider converge of "I could have fun in your game" than "That's the way I would have done it."  That is, real diversity of ideas and artistic tastes--not the fake "diversity" of the woke.