Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 01:14:20 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.

Go blow yourself.

At the time he wrote that, "mongoloid" was a common scientific term for East Asians. In Letter 210, Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". The context makes it clear he wasn't talking about the Mongol Empire, but instead the East Asian phenotypes.

By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.

Orcs are also corrupted Elves.

Therefore Mongols = Elves.

But you do you and keep equating all fantasy races with real world people while acusing those who don't see the resemblance of racism.

That's not what I said at all, but at this point I wonder why I'm surprised you'd misconstrue what I said.

Tolkien said in no uncertain terms that orcs resembled Europeans' racist caricatures of East Asians. He didn't say they were caricatures of East Asians, no. He said they resembled caricatures of East Asians. There's a difference. I don't see the resemblance myself, because I'm not a racist, but those were his words. (And for reference, the Easterlings and the Variags seem to be the closest thing Middle Earth has to fantasy counterparts of Mongols, Huns, and so forth. They're human, not orcs.)

Anyway, I'd like to deliberately move away from any parallels to real world groups. Including the Mongol Empire.

Quote from: Greentongue on July 08, 2021, 01:21:14 PM
I took "Microaggression" training at work.  Basically anything you can say that someone might construe or misconstrue, and take offense to, can't be said in a public context.

Doesn't matter if it is for an imaginary game setting or Current Events.

That covers pretty much... anything? Microaggressions remind me of obscenity laws. "I know it when I see it" but everyone has different standards.

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, Geesus. Worried about racist caricatures of Asians?

How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.

The Mongols literally slaughtered and enslaved *millions* of Europeans. Historical estimates maintain that the Mongols annihilated 50-90% of the entire population of Ukraine! Poland, Hungary, Austria, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria were all put under the MONGOL YOKE. Russia was dominated for over two hundred years by the Mongol Dominion. Fuck whining about racism, oppression and hurting your fucking feelings. How about getting raped, beaten into the fucking ground and made to grovel in the dirt like an animal? Then, how about just being tortured to death or otherwise KILLED. I'd think there's many things worse than "Racism" or "stereotyping" or whatever crybaby whining bullshit that some of these morons like to go on and on about. MILLIONS of Europeans were raped and carried off into slavery, crushed for the rest of their lives. The Mongol Dominion was very real, and it wasn't nice, sweet, or gentle.

Ahh, the poor bandy-legged Mongolian types! Come the fuck on. Everyone else can have perfectly justified feelings of resentment and revel in caricatures and stereotyping WHITE people everyday of the week--and no one says a damned thing about it. But let any white person anywhere, make any kind of negative framed comment or stereotype concerning whatever minorities, and OH MY GOD! Time to clutch the fucking pearls!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Cry me a river, will ya? Would you like to suggest that China pay reparations to Eastern Europe for the Mongol Empire's war crimes? Put Genghis Khan's millions of descendants on Nuremberg Trials? Or put the continent of Africa on trial for starting the Atlantic slave trade? I can't bring myself to care about this anywhere near as much as you seem to, and I half suspect you made this outrage shit up on the spot because you're addled from exposure to too much SJW noise, and whining about war crimes that occurred many centuries ago isn't going to help anyone now. And this is not remotely relevant to the topic of roleplaying games.

I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.

http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 01:14:20 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.

Go blow yourself.

At the time he wrote that, "mongoloid" was a common scientific term for East Asians. In Letter 210, Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". The context makes it clear he wasn't talking about the Mongol Empire, but instead the East Asian phenotypes.

By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.

Orcs are also corrupted Elves.

Therefore Mongols = Elves.

But you do you and keep equating all fantasy races with real world people while acusing those who don't see the resemblance of racism.

That's not what I said at all, but at this point I wonder why I'm surprised you'd misconstrue what I said.

Tolkien said in no uncertain terms that orcs resembled Europeans' racist caricatures of East Asians. He didn't say they were caricatures of East Asians, no. He said they resembled caricatures of East Asians. There's a difference. I don't see the resemblance myself, because I'm not a racist, but those were his words. (And for reference, the Easterlings and the Variags seem to be the closest thing Middle Earth has to fantasy counterparts of Mongols, Huns, and so forth. They're human, not orcs.)

Anyway, I'd like to deliberately move away from any parallels to real world groups. Including the Mongol Empire.

Quote from: Greentongue on July 08, 2021, 01:21:14 PM
I took "Microaggression" training at work.  Basically anything you can say that someone might construe or misconstrue, and take offense to, can't be said in a public context.

Doesn't matter if it is for an imaginary game setting or Current Events.

That covers pretty much... anything? Microaggressions remind me of obscenity laws. "I know it when I see it" but everyone has different standards.

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, Geesus. Worried about racist caricatures of Asians?

How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.

The Mongols literally slaughtered and enslaved *millions* of Europeans. Historical estimates maintain that the Mongols annihilated 50-90% of the entire population of Ukraine! Poland, Hungary, Austria, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria were all put under the MONGOL YOKE. Russia was dominated for over two hundred years by the Mongol Dominion. Fuck whining about racism, oppression and hurting your fucking feelings. How about getting raped, beaten into the fucking ground and made to grovel in the dirt like an animal? Then, how about just being tortured to death or otherwise KILLED. I'd think there's many things worse than "Racism" or "stereotyping" or whatever crybaby whining bullshit that some of these morons like to go on and on about. MILLIONS of Europeans were raped and carried off into slavery, crushed for the rest of their lives. The Mongol Dominion was very real, and it wasn't nice, sweet, or gentle.

Ahh, the poor bandy-legged Mongolian types! Come the fuck on. Everyone else can have perfectly justified feelings of resentment and revel in caricatures and stereotyping WHITE people everyday of the week--and no one says a damned thing about it. But let any white person anywhere, make any kind of negative framed comment or stereotype concerning whatever minorities, and OH MY GOD! Time to clutch the fucking pearls!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Cry me a river, will ya? Would you like to suggest that China pay reparations to Eastern Europe for the Mongol Empire's war crimes? Put Genghis Khan's millions of descendants on Nuremberg Trials? Or put the continent of Africa on trial for starting the Atlantic slave trade? I can't bring myself to care about this anywhere near as much as you seem to, and I half suspect you made this outrage shit up on the spot because you're addled from exposure to too much SJW noise, and whining about war crimes that occurred many centuries ago isn't going to help anyone now. And this is not remotely relevant to the topic of roleplaying games.

I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.

http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/

Greetings!

Yeah, Box!

I do get torqued about the "SJW Noise" as they relate real human groups to fantasy races all the time, and it gets exhausting and frustrating. It's always one-sided, however, and always directed at white people saying much of anything. You know the whole drill. And no, I don't favour "reparations" of any kind, by anyone. History is full of conquerors and the defeated, everywhere. That's just the way history has gone, everywhere, for everyone.

As for having a refuge that isn't dominated by SJW's, well, this website is pretty much it. I think it is the best place, and an island of sanity and humour that keeps the SJW's at bay.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 11:36:55 AM

Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
I am banned from a lot of them for racism. I died on the hill of it was racist against people to say orcs were supposed to be fantasy versions of minorities. That the very act of saying that was racist and to stop. That minorities were already in D&D and other rpg's as themselves. Human's come in all types of colors and shapes and were already in game and showed D&D pictures of humans from books and modules who were clearly minority types. That orcs were horrible monsters ect....

It was a nice hill to die on and I'm not sorry for it BUT I won't be able to help create a beachhead any time soon.

That's pretty crazy. If you're (generic "you" here) writing orcs as fantasy versions of black people, then you're writing them wrong. This is why I try to be careful to strip orcs of any qualities that could be potentially perceived as racist coding.

In a similar vein - that was also a piece of why I made sure to make the aliens in my space western game very alien - physically & mentally. (Though mostly because the Star Trek & Mass Effect style rubber-forehead-aliens have gotten old IMO.)

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2021, 09:00:35 AM
OK, from a few other threads here, there seems to be enough of us in agreement that we need places where we can discuss RPG stuff without fear of being overly annoyed by the sjw mob. So where are these places located? What websites have not been so overrun by the woke, that we can gather and discuss gaming subjects without undue interference?

Obviously, there is this forum, but what other places are there out there?

It looks like you are basically saying that you need a Safe Space.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on July 08, 2021, 02:59:25 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 11:36:55 AM

Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
I am banned from a lot of them for racism. I died on the hill of it was racist against people to say orcs were supposed to be fantasy versions of minorities. That the very act of saying that was racist and to stop. That minorities were already in D&D and other rpg's as themselves. Human's come in all types of colors and shapes and were already in game and showed D&D pictures of humans from books and modules who were clearly minority types. That orcs were horrible monsters ect....

It was a nice hill to die on and I'm not sorry for it BUT I won't be able to help create a beachhead any time soon.

That's pretty crazy. If you're (generic "you" here) writing orcs as fantasy versions of black people, then you're writing them wrong. This is why I try to be careful to strip orcs of any qualities that could be potentially perceived as racist coding.

In a similar vein - that was also a piece of why I made sure to make the aliens in my space western game very alien - physically & mentally. (Though mostly because the Star Trek & Mass Effect style rubber-forehead-aliens have gotten old IMO.)

If nothing else, they're more interesting when they're truly alien.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 01:30:50 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 01:14:20 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 01:00:35 PM
The mongols where fucking monsters box. They relished it and where great at it.

Go blow yourself.

At the time he wrote that, "mongoloid" was a common scientific term for East Asians. In Letter 210, Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". The context makes it clear he wasn't talking about the Mongol Empire, but instead the East Asian phenotypes.

By his own writings, Orcs aren't Mongols, but degraded and repulsive versions of Mongols.

Orcs are also corrupted Elves.

Therefore Mongols = Elves.

But you do you and keep equating all fantasy races with real world people while acusing those who don't see the resemblance of racism.

That's not what I said at all, but at this point I wonder why I'm surprised you'd misconstrue what I said.

Tolkien said in no uncertain terms that orcs resembled Europeans' racist caricatures of East Asians. He didn't say they were caricatures of East Asians, no. He said they resembled caricatures of East Asians. There's a difference. I don't see the resemblance myself, because I'm not a racist, but those were his words. (And for reference, the Easterlings and the Variags seem to be the closest thing Middle Earth has to fantasy counterparts of Mongols, Huns, and so forth. They're human, not orcs.)

Anyway, I'd like to deliberately move away from any parallels to real world groups. Including the Mongol Empire.

Nope he said (an I quote) : Tolkien described Orcs as "...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types"


From which we can infer:

Orcs=Degraded and repulsive versions of Mongol-types
Orcs=Corrupted Elves

By the transitive property

Corrupted Elves = Degraded and repulsive versions of Mongol-types

Therefore:

Non degraded or repulsive Mongol-types = Elves.

The man was a linguist, he wrote what he wrote and could have wroten anything else. But you buy onto the SJW narrative.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.

http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/

Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 03:24:35 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.

http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/

Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.

Greetings!

Indeed, Hermano! You know, to be fair, there are times where Box rails against SJW's and makes some strong commentary against the whole nonsense--and then, at other times, he seems to turn completely around and sounds just like an SJW making arguments and commentary full of the SJW BS. It makes me think that Box may be on medications of some kind, you know? His personality and commentary does seem to fluctuate pretty radically at different times.

And yeah! Fuck the Koolaid!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.

It's ironic that the people that want to 'decolonise' everything and are critical of viewing history solely from a biased 'Western / White' point of view can only view history through a 21st Century American lens. There's more to history than what happened after 1492 and it wasn't all free hugs and safe-spaces until Europeans came along.

Yes, there is a long cultural memory in Europe that the 'bad guys' come from the South and East. That's what Tolkien taps into.

Before the Mongols it was the Magyars and Huns and probably countless other step nomads since those people first learned to ride horses.

And then we have 1000 years of Islamic empires from the South and East conquering all of Spain and as far as Vienna.

As a European I don't hold this against the Mongol people today. Might made right in those days. And people in central Asia have their own stories about evil Alexander conquering them, which is understandable.

I don't have any issue with European pastiches that are prevalent in the fantasy genre but don't come an try to school us about our 'lived experience' as they would say.

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 03:43:15 PM
Indeed, Hermano! You know, to be fair, there are times where Box rails against SJW's and makes some strong commentary against the whole nonsense--and then, at other times, he seems to turn completely around and sounds just like an SJW making arguments and commentary full of the SJW BS. It makes me think that Box may be on medications of some kind, you know? His personality and commentary does seem to fluctuate pretty radically at different times.

People whose minds are living in ivory towers get really confused when the barbarians get in amongst them and then the defenestrations start. 

To me, most existing towers and other bastions should be written off as lost causes.  Not only from an effective strategy standpoint but also from the sheer practical nature of the thing.  So the idea is not to try to retake bastions that are completely undermined but rather to establish new bastions that do what the old bastions were supposed to do but haven't in ages.  For games, the easiest, best, and--coincidentally also the most fun--is to run a good game yourself, get other people interested, and get them running games. 

You don't need an online presence for that.  If you grow enough such that you do need one, don't put it on FB or the like. 

Quote from: TimothyWestwind on July 08, 2021, 03:44:55 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
How about Europeans can justify whatever "caricatures" they want about Asians--especially the Mongols.

It's ironic that the people that want to 'decolonise' everything and are critical of viewing history solely from a biased 'Western / White' point of view can only view history through a 21st Century American lens. There's more to history than what happened after 1492 and it wasn't all free hugs and safe-spaces until Europeans came along.

Yes, there is a long cultural memory in Europe that the 'bad guys' come from the South and East. That's what Tolkien taps into.

Before the Mongols it was the Magyars and Huns and probably countless other step nomads since those people first learned to ride horses.

And then we have 1000 years of Islamic empires from the South and East conquering all of Spain and as far as Vienna.

As a European I don't hold this against the Mongol people today. Might made right in those days. And people in central Asia have their own stories about evil Alexander conquering them, which is understandable.

I don't have any issue with European pastiches that are prevalent in the fantasy genre but don't come an try to school us about our 'lived experience' as they would say.

Greetings!

Very true, TimothyWestwind! I agree entirely. That's why I often feel like running my head through a wall out of frustration with so many of the "racist demagogues, and even the garden-variety well-meaning person that argues so myopically from an American or post-1492 context. It's like, geesus, do you people even comprehend how EUROPE was the slave circus and fuck toy for the Asians, the Muslims, the Moors, as well as the white savages of the Vikings from the far north for a thousand years straight? The Huns, the Magyars, the Avars, yeah. Like you said, a LONG line of invaders and tyrants that swept in and conquered for CENTURIES.

Yeah, it's all about having genuine historical perspective, and understanding that people have not always "gotten along" and their relationships have not always been sweet and nice. And respecting that that is ok, too. Stereotypes, caricatures, whatever. I understand how it all develops. Hopefully, nowadays, wherever we are, we can approach things and relationships reasonably and with openness. We are all different people now, from past ancestors, and we live in different times now. The whole lack of genuine historical knowledge and understanding just drives me nuts, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 03:43:15 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2021, 03:24:35 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM
I would prefer to move away from any parallels to real world groups when designing monsters whose only purpose is to be killed for XP and loot. I don't think orcs are coded as minorities and I don't think they ever should be. Not caricatures of Mongols, not caricatures of anybody. I would prefer to carefully scrub away any pesky human traits and focus on what makes them bags of XP and loot.

http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/

Who says there are any parallels? The SJWs, and you seem to have partaken of the koolaid.

Greetings!

Indeed, Hermano! You know, to be fair, there are times where Box rails against SJW's and makes some strong commentary against the whole nonsense--and then, at other times, he seems to turn completely around and sounds just like an SJW making arguments and commentary full of the SJW BS. It makes me think that Box may be on medications of some kind, you know? His personality and commentary does seem to fluctuate pretty radically at different times.

And yeah! Fuck the Koolaid!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, he does seem to have pretty dramatic mood swings.

To get back on topic.

The same thing is happening in gaming, comics, tv, movies.

The solution is to build new bastions.

In comics the the top selling titles are all Japanese manga. Nobody wants what Marvel and DC are trying to sell. Not because they're 'diverse' but because woke nonsense has a higher priority than good stories and characters. How can Marvel comics sales continue to decline while those movies make billions?

There are many comic book creators who are bypassing the big publishers and setting up their own crowdfunding campaigns, bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars.

In gaming the titles that tick the right boxes win all the awards but the games that focus on quality bring in the sales.

In movies the same thing is happening. Critics dislike Chris Pratt and his new movie the Tomorrow War but audiences are enjoying it.

Kevin Crawford (Star Without Number, World Without Number) doesn't worry about appealing to Twitter mobs, he just makes games people want to buy and play.


Now is the best time to get involved with popular culture.

Write your own comics, create your own games, make your own movies.

Op, you can always try /tg/. If you're willing to weed through the dumb shit, there is actually a lot of good discussion. And it's pretty resistant to silly sjw rhetoric. It is an anonymous board, so it does have its road bumps.

Quote from: TimothyWestwind on July 08, 2021, 04:15:07 PM
To get back on topic.

The same thing is happening in gaming, comics, tv, movies.

The solution is to build new bastions.

Buildling stuff is hard, and there's no guarantee of success. That's why they SJWs infiltrate existing communities instead of building their own.