Quote from: Pat on January 17, 2022, 11:21:07 AM
On the other hand, magic as poetry is awesome.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about legendary examples like Taleisin from Celtic and other mythos. D&D has never done that type of magic very well. The default magic-user is a scholarly type, learning from books. Conversely, the ancient wizards from pre-literate traditions were often just as if not more powerful, but more wise than book-learned, and very knowledgeable about the world and natural history. Attempts like 3e's sorcerer were... really bad. And things like bloodlines and warlocks are a different more modern archetype, closer to superheroes.

Quote from: Hzilong on January 17, 2022, 04:20:47 PM
I would disagree that "music is magic is cringe". Sure a lot of how it is presented in modern fiction is less than stellar. But there have been some good adaptations. See the guzheng assassins in Kung Fu Hustle.

I've never been thrilled with any of the bards in typical games. Part of the problem, I think, is that bards just don't mix with a literate culture. If reading and writing are commonplace in the culture (which has been the case with nearly all D&D worlds that I know), then bards don't fit. Songs and poems are entertainment rather than a primary source for knowledge. If one wants knowledge, one pictures going to a sage with his books rather than to a bard.

The point of bards in myth and legend is that their role as keepers of knowledge is powerful and important. That's how it is in ancient myth, and also in some older fiction, like the Chronicles of Prydain. If one gets into the feel of a non-literate culture where bards are the lynchpin of communication, knowledge, and history - then the feel of bards works better. I think both poetry and music having power is very fitting in that context.

The closest that I've come to bards that I like has been in 5E, but that's not so much a function of the rules - it's more about how the role was handled in the campaign. If songs and poetry are shown as important to society, then the bard role has worked better - though it never fully works if books are commonplace. One schtick that helped was when outside of combat, the bard is vital to the party's reputation - and both the bard and NPCs took their role as historian seriously.

Castles and Crusades in the supplement of Codex Celtarum (now on its second printing) has a Celtic bard as a class, as well and Druid and seer

Savage World Pathfinder Bard - is really hitting it for my group.

They're the shit-talking, influence peddling, support badasses that I always wanted  since D&D 2e. And I think due to the mechanics of the system they work better.

I think the issue of Bards as Druid/Mage/Cleric hybrids is a D&D issue that SW bypasses since the abilities of SW are chunkier and less discrete than d20 (regardless of edition). Because of that - as a "class concept" in SW it can literally be all the different Bard concepts that have emerged over the 5+ editions of D&D while retaining what most people can agree are "Bardly" things.

I think it's a system issue more than a concept issue. I've always loved Bards, I think their expressions in D&D have been very poor for reasons that shouldn't be.

Quote from: tenbones on January 17, 2022, 05:30:25 PM
Savage World Pathfinder Bard - is really hitting it for my group.

They're the shit-talking, influence peddling, support badasses that I always wanted  since D&D 2e. And I think due to the mechanics of the system they work better.

I think the issue of Bards as Druid/Mage/Cleric hybrids is a D&D issue that SW bypasses since the abilities of SW are chunkier and less discrete than d20 (regardless of edition). Because of that - as a "class concept" in SW it can literally be all the different Bard concepts that have emerged over the 5+ editions of D&D while retaining what most people can agree are "Bardly" things.

I think it's a system issue more than a concept issue. I've always loved Bards, I think their expressions in D&D have been very poor for reasons that shouldn't be.

I'll have to check that out. I'm due to run a SW Primeval Thule game soonish.

Not sure what the conceits of Primeval Thule are - but be prepared to tweak it, since I assume it's not like Goliarion. Fortunately Savage Worlds is designed for this so it should be a snap.

Quote from: tenbones on January 17, 2022, 06:01:39 PM
Not sure what the conceits of Primeval Thule are - but be prepared to tweak it, since I assume it's not like Goliarion. Fortunately Savage Worlds is designed for this so it should be a snap.

It's a low magic S&S setting, but I did get the SW PF Bestiary because there's so little fantasy monster books out for SWADE right now other than older stuff that I have not picked up and converted from older editions of SW yet.

Quote from: Pat on January 15, 2022, 10:07:05 PM
I think bards need to be taken back to their origins, but the origins I'm thinking of are a bit older.

I like the C&C bard, but it's really just a spellless but tough version of the 3e bard. The 1e bard is another interesting example that does capture at least some of the Celtic feel with the druid spells, lore, and so on; but even that version is a bit too much of a minstrel. Not familiar with the OSE or Hyperborean bards.

Taliesin is my idea of a bard. The problem is that requires cultural context and an alternate method of knowing and magic, and has to fight against the rockstar dilettante archetype that's become too strongly associated with bards in D&D and its influences.

Incidentally, the Adventurers Backpack for C&C offers a spellcasting bard variant.  They get their own spell lists, which combine druid and illusionist spells.  IMHO it's the best version of the bard out there, with the Hyperborea bard coming in second. 

And FWIW in our OSE campaign, the party's bard is modeled after Bedouin storytellers.  So there are variant archetypes folks can draw from, not that there's anything wrong with Taliesen.

I think it would be good to just make bard (more celtic one) & troubadour (more modern editions) one as subsets of some more jack class called Sage or Dabbler or something like this.
Once it sort of frees it to return word bard to more strictly Northern European context, while allowing many different archetypes of jack to be played around.

TBH, based on what I've read about Celtic bards, I'm not sure that they're that much different from just being wizards with a religious, lore keeping and poetic background. A lot of this stuff are just roles or backgrounds that ultimately fall into one of three broad archetypes: Warrior, Specialist (Rogue/Skill Monkey) or Mystic. Specialists could arguably be broken down into Scout, Diplomat, Scholar or Craftsmen/Tinkerers.

I'm not sure you need a specialized class for any of that. You just need the core 4 (or 3 IMO), and skills/talents (Feats?) to cover background stuff.

Wizard = Plain Mystic
Bard = Mystic with Lore Keeping and Poetry skills, plus a religious backstory.

Marvel comics had a character, the mutant Xman named BANSHEE.  So, bard can charm, but in combat, use a type of sonic attack.....just an idea.

My favorite Bards are the ones that get eaten by dragons, or run over by wagon trains, or don't exist as a PC option.

It's a class that's never made sense, seems to be a hybrid of being a wannabe lorejunky, thief/rogue, and spellcaster, and musical prodigy, and wandering entertainer all in one. It's more the concept of the bard I dislike the most. It's this mishmash of all these things that don't quite got together. Rangers are better explorers. Wizards should be the Loremasters. Obviously there are many classes that do spellcasting better. Thief's are better thieves. Rogues are better rogues. All that's left is being a entertainer, and anybody can put skill points or proficiency points into musical instruments.

It's a pointless class in D&D.

The Witcher rpg does it better. The Earthdawn rpg does it better. And even in those rpgs I'd rather players just play something else.

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 06:51:46 AM
TBH, based on what I've read about Celtic bards, I'm not sure that they're that much different from just being wizards with a religious, lore keeping and poetic background. A lot of this stuff are just roles or backgrounds that ultimately fall into one of three broad archetypes: Warrior, Specialist (Rogue/Skill Monkey) or Mystic. Specialists could arguably be broken down into Scout, Diplomat, Scholar or Craftsmen/Tinkerers.

I'm not sure you need a specialized class for any of that. You just need the core 4 (or 3 IMO), and skills/talents (Feats?) to cover background stuff.

Wizard = Plain Mystic
Bard = Mystic with Lore Keeping and Poetry skills, plus a religious backstory.

I mean kind of? I always kind of imagined they were mostly responsible for the oral traditions. Not sure where they came up with the dnd version of the bard

Quote from: Ocule on January 18, 2022, 12:32:48 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 18, 2022, 06:51:46 AM
TBH, based on what I've read about Celtic bards, I'm not sure that they're that much different from just being wizards with a religious, lore keeping and poetic background. A lot of this stuff are just roles or backgrounds that ultimately fall into one of three broad archetypes: Warrior, Specialist (Rogue/Skill Monkey) or Mystic. Specialists could arguably be broken down into Scout, Diplomat, Scholar or Craftsmen/Tinkerers.

I'm not sure you need a specialized class for any of that. You just need the core 4 (or 3 IMO), and skills/talents (Feats?) to cover background stuff.

Wizard = Plain Mystic
Bard = Mystic with Lore Keeping and Poetry skills, plus a religious backstory.

I mean kind of? I always kind of imagined they were mostly responsible for the oral traditions. Not sure where they came up with the dnd version of the bard

It's a mix. The AD&D1e version clearly draws from the Celtic sources, with the druid spells, the lore, and so on. But it's useful to remember that Celtic mythology is a bit of mess, since we don't have any primary sources. The Celts seemed to have a cultural prohibition against writing things down, so we don't know what the stories originally said. In fact, they were mostly lost, because while Celts spanned the whole continent of Europe the only stories that survived until today come from the fringe, one minor set of islands (Great Britain). And those stories passed down for hundreds of years through changing cultures, which adapted them to their needs, before they were finally written down in a relatively static form. One of the more obvious examples is the creation mythos, which have clearly been adapted to fit in with the Christian Genesis. So a lot of Celtic culture is lost or distorted, and as a result much of it is speculation -- or pure fabrication. Because a lot of what you can look up about bards and druids on the internet comes from the Celtic renaissance movement, which has created a new modern legendarium that has obscured much of the real scholarship.

AD&D1e draws inconsistently from this mess, and the bard as it's evolved has also adapted elements from medieval troubadors, like the lyres, jangly bits, an occasional pair of tights. But they've also adopted elements from modern musicians, including many of the traits of rock stars like the womanizing, drugs, and celebrity. They also draw or parallel from secondary sources, like the Harpers from McCaffrey's stories. And even more recently, there's the whole sonic motif which appears to be entirely game mechnical.

Greetings!

I have always liked the Bard concept. I think of Celtic Bards, of course, but also Finnish Bards, both of which were prominent figures throughout society. I also think about Mongolian Bards--Throatsingers--that created music and lore for their clans, and accompanied the great armies on campaign. Indeed, Beduins have Bardic traditions, as Persimmon mentioned. I'm also reminded of the Persian storytellers and musicians that Professor Michael Wood met on his journey in making In the Footsteps of Alexander.

Lots o different styles and inspiration!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2022, 12:56:19 PM
Greetings!

I have always liked the Bard concept. I think of Celtic Bards, of course, but also Finnish Bards, both of which were prominent figures throughout society. I also think about Mongolian Bards--Throatsingers--that created music and lore for their clans, and accompanied the great armies on campaign. Indeed, Beduins have Bardic traditions, as Persimmon mentioned. I'm also reminded of the Persian storytellers and musicians that Professor Michael Wood met on his journey in making In the Footsteps of Alexander.

Lots o different styles and inspiration!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes, Gygax in particular was clearly inspired by the Kalevala. And don't forget the skalds, like Egill Skallagrímsson.

The trick is to keep a coherent enough class, without diluting it too much.