Quote from: RebelSky on January 04, 2023, 08:29:20 AM
It's not on your list but here are three good S&S RPGs that would be really good as game resources.

Crypts &Things Remastered
Shadow, Sword and Spells 2e
Through Sunken Lands

All 3 are really good and each have something different that can enhance any sword and sorcery rpg. C&TR is based on Swords and Wizardry. SS&S2e has its own d12 system but it has an amazing domain and kingdom building system for later gameplay. And TSL is an OSR adjacent game that combines character creation with some world and map building that can be used by a GM to help build up your own setting and it's phenomenal for easing new players into gaming.

Have you played Shadow Sword and Spell? 

I bought the book just recently, sincerely expecting it to be my new favorite S&S game, and on the surface it looks good: a human-centric, low fantasy, skills based system, with mechanics broadly derived from WFRP but overhauled for simpler numbers. Then I started reading it, I immediately spotted some apparently serious red flags.

The biggest one is that the action economy appears to be completely broken. The game uses action points, which I don't like under the best of conditions, but this particular system seems highly exploitable. To give an example, here's the passage from the book that really set me on high alert: "With your Actions you are able to use them all for attacking opponents...bows have a RoF of 2/1, enabling your character to shoot 2 arrows per Action in a Round...If you have Action 5 then you are able to shoot 10 times in one round."

In fairness, 5 AP requires quite a high Quickness stat, but Quickness is itself a bit of a super-statistic, as it not only determines AP, but also movement rate, and is heavily factored into initiative. So your high-quickness archer, can move all over the map, reliably attack first, and get off many more attacks per round than your sword-wielding warrior.

There's also bizarre decisions, like the fact that if you wear armor, you take no damage from attacks until your armor is completely destroyed, and called shots to the head dealing no damage if the opponent is wearing a helmet. And there's rules where it looks like they just didn't think the math through. For example, a called shot to the abdomen means you take a -3 to your attack, in exchange for +2 damage. Problem is, the game uses Degrees of Success to determine damage, so unless I'm misreading, you are trading -3 damage and a lower chance to hit, in exchange for +2 damage.

Now, I've only started reading the pdf, so I might be missing the details that make all this work. That's why I wanted to ask if you had tried it out at the table. As of right now, it's looking like I'm going to have to either heavily homebrew the game, or just accept that it was a bad purchase and move on.

The games I own and have played for S&S are as follows:
Barbarians of Lemuria (Legendary, Mythic, and Legends of Steel)
BoL Hack
Crimson Blades 2
ASSH 2e (Hyperborea)
Crypts & Things Remastered
Barbarians of the Ruined Earth

The Barbarians of Lemuria flavors and Crimson Blades are the ones that the books fell apart due to excessive usage and required replacements. My Crypts & Things book doesn't look too good either as it comes in as a second place contender. The others books are just fine and living on a shelf.

Quote from: bx corgi on January 04, 2023, 09:23:43 PM
The games I own and have played for S&S are as follows:
Barbarians of Lemuria (Legendary, Mythic, and Legends of Steel)
BoL Hack
Crimson Blades 2
ASSH 2e (Hyperborea)
Crypts & Things Remastered
Barbarians of the Ruined Earth

The Barbarians of Lemuria flavors and Crimson Blades are the ones that the books fell apart due to excessive usage and required replacements. My Crypts & Things book doesn't look too good either as it comes in as a second place contender. The others books are just fine and living on a shelf.

Crypts & Things Remastered is such a good book. You have good taste.

Somewhere between the two options of BoL or Hyperborea 3e would be By this Axe I Hack!, which is based on The Black Hack, but with an S&S vibe.

Quote from: Brad on January 03, 2023, 09:14:32 PM

Quote from: Batjon on January 03, 2023, 09:07:10 PM
How hard to run and generally crunch/rules heavy is Hyperborea?

About as complicated as B/X, I'd think. Others may have differing opinions, but it's a pretty typical OSR-type game.

I'd say it's more similar to AD&D 1E than B/X. And I'd choose it over BoL but just barely. My problem right now is that I've got a love affair with DCC going on and it makes the choice to run one of the other very difficult!

Quote from: Persimmon on January 04, 2023, 09:01:20 AM
Not on your list, but there's a brand new game called "Swords & Chaos" which is essentially a mashup of Castles & Crusades and DCC.  I haven't received my hard copy yet from the KS, but it has a few interesting elements, though in my opinion it still hews too closely to the AD&D spell system, even including many of the old spells simply with new names.

Hell, I think you could do S&S fairly well with DCC; just cut out the demi-human classes.

Swords & Chaos is also very good!

Quote from: Batjon on January 03, 2023, 09:07:10 PM
How hard to run and generally crunch/rules heavy is Hyperborea?

I'd say medium crunch. It's d20 to hit, d20 for saves, and x-in-6 chance for most other things. Based on my experience running it, the crunchiest bits are multiple attacks per round (like 3 att per 2 rounds) and descending AC, which you could convert easily enough. Side initiative makes combat fairly quick. The rules specify individual init on ties, but I just call for a re-roll to keep things simple. There are a lot of advanced combat actions that are optional so the crunch is there if you want it.

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 05, 2023, 10:34:28 AM

Quote from: Batjon on January 03, 2023, 09:07:10 PM
How hard to run and generally crunch/rules heavy is Hyperborea?

I'd say medium crunch. It's d20 to hit, d20 for saves, and x-in-6 chance for most other things. Based on my experience running it, the crunchiest bits are multiple attacks per round (like 3 att per 2 rounds) and descending AC, which you could convert easily enough. Side initiative makes combat fairly quick. The rules specify individual init on ties, but I just call for a re-roll to keep things simple. There are a lot of advanced combat actions that are optional so the crunch is there if you want it.

I really do find a lot of those combat options that exist to be quite nice and adds flavor to combat. I love mighty deeds from DCC, but as it stands, they're only available to dwarves and warriors. In Hyperborea, they are available to everyone.