In situations like yours a union might make sense. Their original purpose is about to come back with a vengeance, because our currency is about to enter free fall. Current wages will not be sufficient, and workers will need to fight.

I went out and made my own company. I work far, far, far harder than I ever did in any job from breaking up concrete to engineering for a startup. It is brutal. My family's insurance alone is $22,000 annually. That used to be paid for me. I spend $4 - 10k a month in ads. There's cover design, and accounting, and market researching.

But I wasn't happy with my job. I didn't like what I had to do for the salary I earned. I didn't like not being able to make my own decisions, and have power over my own life. So I took a huge risk, and worked hard until my dream became reality.

What I seem to be seeing from our Baizou buddies says they want the best of both worlds. They don't want to take the risks I've taken. They don't want to make their own games. But they want good pay, and good benefits.

I don't have any employees for precisely this reason. I do all the writing myself, and I hire artists, and pay my wife to edit. Because the second you hire someone they feel like they own part of what you've built.

If the union is being created because workers are being mistreated and underpaid? More power to them. If it's the inmates taking over the asylum as it appears from my armchair position? Expect Pathfinder's best days to be behind it.

Quote from: ChrisFox on October 15, 2021, 12:34:25 PM
If the union is being created because workers are being mistreated and underpaid? More power to them. If it's the inmates taking over the asylum as it appears from my armchair position? Expect Pathfinder's best days to be behind it.

Likely the latter.

I went to a number of the PaizoCons and, at one point, visited their offices to talk about content licensing (now quite a few years ago). All things considered, except for some of the rather amoral rumors floating around, I thought they were pretty well taken care of by management. So many of those jobs would be very easily packed up and moved to other markets. At least back then, they also used a lot of freelance artists and designers already.

My father, who was decidedly anti-communist, was very pro-union.

He was old enough to remember the "bad `ol days," and understood that equality and justice come from a position of power, not wishful thinking.

Unions are (were?) an important counterbalance. Strong management and strong unions helped create the middle class too many took for granted in later years, because there was intelligent give and take. Both sides had something the other needed, so neither side grew too powerful. In some cases it was MAD, but since mutual destruction hurt both sides they would work out a rational deal.

But, as usual...and when communist infiltrators got ahold of too much of it, as they did the civil rights movement, something good was warped into a parody of what it was. Without sensible, intelligent leaders who are genuinely strong and dedicated, unions can only bring ruin as surely as greedy, callous management.

I suspect these 30 people have just volunteered to be the first to go when Piazo has to cut headcount to survive.

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on October 15, 2021, 02:18:19 PM
My father, who was decidedly anti-communist, was very pro-union.

He was old enough to remember the "bad `ol days," and understood that equality and justice come from a position of power, not wishful thinking.

Unions are (were?) an important counterbalance. Strong management and strong unions helped create the middle class too many took for granted in later years, because there was intelligent give and take. Both sides had something the other needed, so neither side grew too powerful. In some cases it was MAD, but since mutual destruction hurt both sides they would work out a rational deal.

But, as usual...and when communist infiltrators got ahold of too much of it, as they did the civil rights movement, something good was warped into a parody of what it was. Without sensible, intelligent leaders who are genuinely strong and dedicated, unions can only bring ruin as surely as greedy, callous management.

Private unions are a great tool to deal with monopolistic employers. Even in their original state were they corrupted at times? Of course. But they're fine in principal.

I tend to think that unions creating the middle class is an overstatement. Much of it was classic jumping in front of the parade stuff. Like how by the time child labor was outlawed, it was already down to a pretty low % simply due to increasing economic/tech progress generally. But - they're still a fine tool.

(Public unions are an entirely different thing which even FDR was against - if that tells you anything.)

But really - I don't see Paizo being able to unionize successfully. Union success relies upon there being such a number of them that they can't be easily replaced en-mass, while TTRPG designers and basic marketing workers are a dime a dozen. Replacing half their workforce wouldn't be super hard, and then those workers will be mostly out of a job since full-time TTRPG designer jobs are pretty rare. Only Paizo & Wizards are probably large enough to not count as a small business.

Quote from: Lynn on October 15, 2021, 01:56:30 PM
So many of those jobs would be very easily packed up and moved to other markets. At least back then, they also used a lot of freelance artists and designers already.

That's the big issue. TTRPG designers are a dime a dozen, while unions can only work when it's difficult to replace the whole workforce. (Unless you're going full-on mafia and threatening the scabs etc. Which is basically another way to make them difficult to replace.)

Hi y'all!  Long time board-stalker, first time poster. 

This is indeed a bizarre development and I don't think it'll end particularly well for either Paizo or the individuals attempting to "stick it to the man".  Unfortunately for all involved, Paizo is just not a company that needs to exist anymore.  It certainly did in '09 when people wanted a more traditional alternative to the drastically different 4E but that ship has sailed, "traditional D&D" is back (sort of*), Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired, and the adventure paths written for it have been the very definition of style over substance.  The individuals who've decided to form a union at Paizo are not skilled professionals.  They're not airline pilots--they're easily-replaceable barely-skilled labor at a company struggling to stay relevant when it's decidedly not.  Creatives and web-developers are a dime-a-dozen.  Paizo can simply sack the lot of them (I certainly would) and move on.
*I'm not a 5E guy by any stretch of the imagination and wouldn't think of giving WotC a dime at this point, but it's closer to what I would call "traditional D&D" than 4E was.

Paizo's swan-dive from relevance actually bothers me as a former Paizo fan.  Many of the best, heck, maybe *all* of the best 3/3.5E adventures came from Paizo, either through the Paizo-run Dungeon magazine or Paizo employees' efforts for WotC (Red Hand of Doom, Castle Greyhawk, etc.).  When WotC unceremoniously dumped Paizo w/ the release of 4E, I stuck with them, buying just about every Paizo product I could get my hands on.  The first five years worth of adventure paths were amazing, but soon, the dreaded virtue-signaling-over-substance took hold and it was all downhill from there.  I'd like to see Paizo recover from its recent bad press and this bad-faith decision on the part of some of its employees *and* for them to get back to making ass-kicking politics-free adventures but, alas...there's essentially a zero percent chance of that happening.

If we're really lucky, this sort of thing will catch on and wotc employees will try to unionize.  I'm pretty sure Hasbro would shutter wotc before they would allow that to happen. 

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on October 15, 2021, 02:30:32 PM

Quote from: Lynn on October 15, 2021, 01:56:30 PM
So many of those jobs would be very easily packed up and moved to other markets. At least back then, they also used a lot of freelance artists and designers already.

That's the big issue. TTRPG designers are a dime a dozen, while unions can only work when it's difficult to replace the whole workforce. (Unless you're going full-on mafia and threatening the scabs etc. Which is basically another way to make them difficult to replace.)

The local environment might make a difference as well. Back when Powell's unionized in Portland, even in a generally union friendly city, there was resentment. Fortunately, the union leaders at Powell's benefited from being able to look in the books and could see what Powell's could or couldn't actually do - even to the point of accepting temp employees, pay freezes and the like.

On the other hand, the exact same union was the one that slowed the international port of the Port of Portland to the point that it lost all international business for years. And it was all the result of it and another union squabbling over six jobs. The same union got hit with a huge lawsuit - which was eventually reduced. Had the original penalty been enforced, it would have lost everything. It did hundreds of millions of dollars damage as all that shipping had to go through Seattle instead, and then goods shipped to Portland by truck.

Unless you're D&D/WotC I don't see how you can have an RPG publishing business HQed in Seattle. Moreover, I don't see how you can have a bunch of political activists larping as game developers as your primary staff.

I have a Paizo account that I use to get old issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, as well as other PDF products that are only sold on the Paizo store. It would be really, really annoying if the company sinks.

Quote from: gawdsofwar on October 15, 2021, 04:27:33 PM
Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired

I think it could have been done well (i.e. successfully), but it's apparent now that Pathfinder 2E is not a great success. Two years after its release, it is still trailing behind 1E in the number of players on Roll20, with roughly twice as many 1E games as 2E. That's not what Paizo was hoping for, I'm sure. Oh, and Starfinder is doing even worse.

Source: https://blog.roll20.net/media/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 15, 2021, 09:14:00 PM
I have a Paizo account that I use to get old issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, as well as other PDF products that are only sold on the Paizo store. It would be really, really annoying if the company sinks.

Download now, while you still can

Quote from: Horace on October 15, 2021, 09:19:02 PM

Quote from: gawdsofwar on October 15, 2021, 04:27:33 PM
Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired

I think it could have been done well (i.e. successfully), but it's apparent now that Pathfinder 2E is not a great success. Two years after its release, it is still trailing behind 1E in the number of players on Roll20, with roughly twice as many 1E games as 2E. That's not what Paizo was hoping for, I'm sure. Oh, and Starfinder is doing even worse.

Source: https://blog.roll20.net/media/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf

Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?

Quote from: Shasarak on October 15, 2021, 09:37:36 PM

Quote from: Horace on October 15, 2021, 09:19:02 PM

Quote from: gawdsofwar on October 15, 2021, 04:27:33 PM
Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired

I think it could have been done well (i.e. successfully), but it's apparent now that Pathfinder 2E is not a great success. Two years after its release, it is still trailing behind 1E in the number of players on Roll20, with roughly twice as many 1E games as 2E. That's not what Paizo was hoping for, I'm sure. Oh, and Starfinder is doing even worse.

Source: https://blog.roll20.net/media/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf

Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?

It has been consistently near the top of the list the past few years. You can find past reports here: https://wiki.roll20.net/Orr_Industry_Report

Of course, I'm not sure how closely Roll20 reflects the general gaming population. But I think it's a pretty good reflection of general trends.

UPDATE: Ruh RoH!

https://twitter.com/doctorcomics/status/1449126582937808898

Quote from: BAIZUO Contractors of the World UNITE! on October 15, 2021, 09:37:36 PM
Today I want to shine a spotlight on UPW's secret weapon: freelancers. Paizo's freelancers are our ally in this fight and we're helping each other. Here's how: 1/11
Paizo's business model is built on freelancers. Very few of the words in our publications are written in-house by full time employees on the clock. Instead, we outline projects, hire freelancers to execute those outlines, and develop and edit those manuscripts. 2/11
This allows a relatively small number of people (about 35, including art directors, editors, designers, developers, and more) to produce, well, everything. Have you seen our publication schedule lately? It's LONG. And Paizo must publish new books to pay its bills. 3/11
Well, about a month ago, about 40 of Paizo's most reliable, prolific, and skilled freelancers simply stopped working. In official parlance, this is called "concerted action." In layman's terms, it's a strike without a union. 4/11
https://twitter.com/DavicTheGrey/status/1449044546969608195/photo/1

Some of these freelancers were in the middle of projects, with upcoming deadlines. Some of them had completed manuscripts they refused to turn over. Some were people we need to hire, to get scheduled books underway in time to publish. All of that FROZE. 5/11
Folks, Paizo can't operate in that environment. We can't just assign 10,000 word Org Play scenarios, 35,000 word SF adventures, 50,000 word P2 adventures to new, untested freelancers. And for many projects, it's too late in the schedule to do that anyway. 6/11
Now, this group of freelancers had a specific list of demands. They wanted Paizo to hire a diversity officer, for example, and investigate recent terminations. But yesterday, they updated their demands: they'll all come back to work if Paizo recognizes United Paizo Workers. 7/11
This is an enormous lever, and we at UPW are incredibly grateful to have it. Paizo can't make its publication schedule without freelancers, and it can't pay exec salaries without publications. But if they recognize our union, freelancers come back to work TOMORROW. 8/11
Sure, yes, contract negotiations will be long and trying for all involved. But Paizo will still get books out the door, it'll be able to make its commitments and pay its bills and salaries. And during contract negotiation, we, the people who hire freelancers, can pay back. 9/11
In contract negotiation, we can fight for better pay rates for freelancers. We can get more time in the schedule, so writers have time to do their job right. We can get playtesting built into these schedules, which not only helps freelancers but creates better books. 10/11
Paizo's freelancers and United @PaizoWorkers are working hand in hand. And I am so grateful, honored, and humbled to have that partnership. @tectonomancer, we will not let you down! 11/11

If true...

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! ROTFL!!!

And so goeth the house of Baizuo publishing...

Quote from: Shasarak on October 15, 2021, 09:37:36 PM
...
Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?

CoC is crazy popular. #1 RPG in Japan, it is the 800,000lb Gorilla of the hobby over there... (I'd imagine the royalties from that alone would put Chaosium higher on something like ICV2's listings if they were able to capture it.)

At times the CoC corebook it even beat out the PF2 corebook in sales rankings on Amazon this past year.

I think it could be even more popular if Chaosium was willing to try a different take on a few things.

CoC sales basically let Chaosium indulge in the fantasy that people actually like Gorlanthia.