Quote from: RPGPundit on July 15, 2023, 02:23:44 AM

Quote from: Baron on July 14, 2023, 05:16:37 PM

Quote from: blackstone on July 14, 2023, 09:48:14 AM
I think I'm going to get it. The paperback version is $30. Quite the bargain. Plus it's a bit of early RPG history most gamers aren't aware of.

Not trying to start anything here, but when a $30 paperback book is "quite the bargain" I feel like I've slipped into the Twilight Zone.

It's a big paperback. I'd say its certainly worth it.

TSR and Palladium softbound books tended to go 20-25$ or more to 30 for book now is not bad at all. Otner games have doubled or even trippled in price.

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 15, 2023, 03:52:55 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 15, 2023, 02:22:06 AMIt's a fantastic book.

Why?

I downloaded the 11 page PDF from their KS and it didn't make much of an impression on me. What is jumping out for you to give it such praise?

Assuming we are talking about the same Tonisborg:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/secretsofblackmoor/the-lost-dungeons-of-tonisborg

From my perspective it appears to be an OSR purity slap fight with some book most rpg players will never even know existed as the battleground and whether you support or decry said book determining which tribe you have declared allegiance to.

I didn't even know this book existed until Pundit made this post and since I'm utterly uninterested in the entire OSR ecosystem I think this sums this whole tempest in a teapot nicely...

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 15, 2023, 09:29:24 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 15, 2023, 03:52:55 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 15, 2023, 02:22:06 AMIt's a fantastic book.

Why?

I downloaded the 11 page PDF from their KS and it didn't make much of an impression on me. What is jumping out for you to give it such praise?

Assuming we are talking about the same Tonisborg:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/secretsofblackmoor/the-lost-dungeons-of-tonisborg

From my perspective it appears to be an OSR purity slap fight with some book most rpg players will never even know existed as the battleground and whether you support or decry said book determining which tribe you have declared allegiance to.

I didn't even know this book existed until Pundit made this post and since I'm utterly uninterested in the entire OSR ecosystem I think this sums this whole tempest in a teapot nicely...

You joke, but I haven't slept in decades.

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 15, 2023, 03:52:55 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 15, 2023, 02:22:06 AMIt's a fantastic book.

Why?

I downloaded the 11 page PDF from their KS and it didn't make much of an impression on me. What is jumping out for you to give it such praise?

Assuming we are talking about the same Tonisborg:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/secretsofblackmoor/the-lost-dungeons-of-tonisborg

Well, check out my video review of Tonisborg:

Griffith's public conduct in the oldschool community has generally lacked intelligence and grace, as I remember it. Up to this day, he has not learned to deliver his message without creating stupid distractions. Like when the Pundit himself did an interview with him, and Griffith spend a minute or two gloating about [I'm paraphrasing here] how fans were sending him "crap" from their personal collections. - Why on earth would anyone in their right mind say something like that, and in the context of a promotional event?! -- The guy's public persona, at least, is that of the long-time co-worker your new boss fires so the team will like him. As a lifelong fan of Blackmoor, this has made me walk away from stuff I would otherwise have been more than mildly interested in.

That said, it can't be denied that Griffith and his team are delivering enjoyable and high-quality products. The movie was good, the Tonisborg book was very good. They're delivering on their promises, and that makes up for a lot: Multiple Kickstarters, no controversy. Multiple products, consistently good. If historical D&D gaming remains popular over the next decade, I think it's going to be because Grffith is bringing it back, during a time when other historical gaming businesses are imploding. Dawns on me the community might yet need to find way to physically gag him, like with the bard in "Asterix". But once that accomplishment is made, he might well come to play a larger role in the hobby - and a fully positive one.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 15, 2023, 09:29:24 AM

I didn't even know this book existed until Pundit made this post and since I'm utterly uninterested in the entire OSR ecosystem I think this sums this whole tempest in a teapot nicely...

Yeah I didn't know anything about this book either. Based on the content outlined in the KS I may be interested though..

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 17, 2023, 11:04:11 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 15, 2023, 09:29:24 AM

I didn't even know this book existed until Pundit made this post and since I'm utterly uninterested in the entire OSR ecosystem I think this sums this whole tempest in a teapot nicely...

Yeah I didn't know anything about this book either. Based on the content outlined in the KS I may be interested though..

The book is honestly pretty great - especially considering the premise, which core material the team was working with, what format they were gunning for. The Kickstarter not including a PDF or editable maps (IIRC) is a minor flaw, but that's nothing beyond the manageable. Likely due to copyright-related reasons, the context and backstory are rather brief -- but "brief" doesn't mean "lacking", here. -- My impression of the dungeon is that it's one of those gaming books that just works, and wins you over by making no mistakes. The in-game setup comes without frills, and the dungeon itself will offer few surprises to anyone who has been memorizing dungeons for the last two-thousand years; but for a normal, unambitious, Thursday night group, this seems like a fun, and an overall rewarding experience. -- Myself, I will not be able run this one any time soon, but it's definitely on my list of modules I'm considering for future games.

Quote from: Rafael on July 16, 2023, 07:28:55 AM
Griffith's public conduct in the oldschool community has generally lacked intelligence and grace, as I remember it. Up to this day, he has not learned to deliver his message without creating stupid distractions. Like when the Pundit himself did an interview with him, and Griffith spend a minute or two gloating about [I'm paraphrasing here] how fans were sending him "crap" from their personal collections. - Why on earth would anyone in their right mind say something like that, and in the context of a promotional event?! -- The guy's public persona, at least, is that of the long-time co-worker your new boss fires so the team will like him. As a lifelong fan of Blackmoor, this has made me walk away from stuff I would otherwise have been more than mildly interested in.

Agreed. His antics in his feud with Victor Dorso of 'Dave Con' have been why I don't support any local conventions; his 'Arne Con' last October got exactly six people; we listened to his announcements all through the previous summer that he was going to have his convention in "a major downtown Minneapolis hotel" on the theory that if Gary Con can get 3,500+ people, then a Dave Arneson convention will get 3,000 people. His legal threats, based on his claimed ownership of Blackmoor through the ownership of the "Blackmoor" trademark (See also his 'Estate of David L. Arneson, LLC') have caused people like Bob Meyer walk away from the gaming scene. He's basing his claims on the same legal basis that Justin Lanasa is basing his claims to the old TSR back catalog, and we've seen how that is playing out.

It's a pity. Sevenny was there at the dawn of time, and this is a good product allowing people to hear Svenny's voice.

Personally, I regard my involvement with Mr. Morgan and his film to be the worst mistake I've ever made, right up there with getting back in touch with Phil in 2010 after walking away from the latter in 1987. So it goes; "Tonisberg" is worth buying, if one likes 'classic fantasy', but I've lost interest in the genre thanks to Mr. Morgan.

Quote from: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2023, 05:17:42 PMAgreed. His antics in his feud with Victor Dorso of 'Dave Con' have been why I don't support any local conventions; his 'Arne Con' last October got exactly six people; we listened to his announcements all through the previous summer that he was going to have his convention in "a major downtown Minneapolis hotel" on the theory that if Gary Con can get 3,500+ people, then a Dave Arneson convention will get 3,000 people. His legal threats, based on his claimed ownership of Blackmoor through the ownership of the "Blackmoor" trademark (See also his 'Estate of David L. Arneson, LLC') have caused people like Bob Meyer walk away from the gaming scene. He's basing his claims on the same legal basis that Justin Lanasa is basing his claims to the old TSR back catalog, and we've seen how that is playing out.

It's a pity. Sevenny was there at the dawn of time, and this is a good product allowing people to hear Svenny's voice.

Personally, I regard my involvement with Mr. Morgan and his film to be the worst mistake I've ever made, right up there with getting back in touch with Phil in 2010 after walking away from the latter in 1987. So it goes; "Tonisberg" is worth buying, if one likes 'classic fantasy', but I've lost interest in the genre thanks to Mr. Morgan.

Hey, Chirine! Despite some past disagreements - good to see you're still online sometimes! -- "ArneCon"? "Davecon"? I am evidently missing some context here. 

Now, despite my rather candid words, I don't share your negative opinion of Mr Morgan. I don't think he's a bad person. I think he needs a PR agent, and a PR agent who tells him to shut the fuck up sometimes. But that doesn't take away from the fact that he delivers on his promises: We got the movie, we got the book. He doesn't promise amusement parks (or whatever that shit was) and he doesn't photoshop his covers on other people's stacks of books. Honestly, he and his team have done a pretty good job given the circumstances. Their next project, if there is going to be one, I'll be happy to fund if it relates to my interests. Because I can reasonably assume I will be recompensated for my confidence in their success.

...It's just that any promotional efforts by Griffith himself - at least the ones I've seen - sooner or later all seem to turn into the freaking bathroom scene from "Rain Main". I can perfectly see why you or others would flat-out refuse to work with Griffith if those gaffes are any indicator of how he likes to conduct himself off-camera. I hope what you're saying turns out to be only based in some kind of misunderstanding because if Griffith was really taking his legal advice from, ugh, "the LaNasa board of law", that would quite probably diminish the likelihood of long-term success. Moreover, but that's just me and my opinion: Basing your product-related promotion on a generally mistakable or unclear legal claim will put a ceiling on the talent that will consider working with you - as happened with Mentzer, and as happened later with the Gygax crowd. Freelancers generally don't go where the funding isn't secure, and where the production process might well be halted because of what will seem foreseeable legal problems.

Now, since I am pretty out of touch with the OSR, these days, and since I only rarely ever return to the old family of forum websites, let me be clear: I exited the Blackmoor-Sphere around the same time that Griffith entered it, which would have been some time in '13 if my memory doesn't fool me. Griff and I had a few personal conversations - he was with the movie project, already - that all turned out to be pretty amicable and cordial. And my retirement from the BM-Sphere had nothing to do with the movie project, but simply with the fact that my own BM project, "The Last Fantasy Campaign", was closing down, and that I wanted to try new things. -- This is why I remain so bewildered by Griffith's later conduct; he'd struck me as the kind of guy who would know better. That said, again - Griffith and his "Fellowship" are not doing that bad a job, with the books and the movie. It's just that their communication is strangely disjointed for a project that has no other problems. I sure do wish them well; it's just that every time I hear about them - which is not often - it's in relation with some seriously non-standard situation.

I'm not really on-line, anymore; I look in here about once a month to see what's new, and that's about it.

I agree with your points. My experience has been more or less the same. I got tired of his feud with Jon Peterson over who had the biggest pile of stuff way back when, and if he'd concentrate on getting his projects done and drop the feuding with people I'd be a lot happier. "Disjointed" is pretty accurate, I'd say.

The 'dueling Dave Cons' got started a while back, when some of Dave's old players were griping that they had to go cap in hand to Luke Gygax and Gary Con in order to get any attention. The idea was to do a 'Dave Con', just like Gary Con, and draw as much attention as possible to the Twin Cities crowd. Since I had saved Dave's bacon when he had the notion of having a game convention here in the Twin Cities, I was tapped to run the thing for them. They could never get their act together - a signature trait of that group of people - and nothing ever happened.

A couple of years ago, a local D&D fan did his own version, Dave Con, and immediately caused all sorts of controversy by booking Tim Kask and Ernie Gygax as the big name guests of honor; he was completely unaware that the two of them have been Dave's biggest critics over the years, and he got pretty aggressive when this was pointed out. The controversy got deeper, when Mr. Morgan announced that because he controlled the Blackmoor trademark, which he'd gotten from Justin Lanasa, only he and his group could run a Dave Arneson convention. Said convention would rival Gary Con in numbers and features, as Dave was so much more important to the hobby than Gary was. He made  noises about legal action to shut Dave Con down, making a number of 'interesting' legal claims regarding the Blackmoor IP. His event didn't happen, and one of the locals - who used to run Dave's website - tried to put something on. It got literally six people, and was a mess.

I'm not interested in feuds, and have walked away from both factions after I got pushed really hard to support their events - I'm supposed to be some sort of Big Name Celebrity, or something - and I gave up when it became clear that this is no middle ground anymore; "you're either for us or against us!" is the attitude. I just gave up; I don't have the time or energy for this nonsense.

It's a pity. He has access to a lot of very good material, and when he can hold off on the feuding he can do some great stuff. And if he'd hold off on the 'open mouth, insert foot' pronouncements, he'd have a lot more credibility around here.

People like him are why I stay away from gaming circles. Too much noise, too little content.

Was searching for stupid crap because someone approached me with messages about some new stupid drama brewing - which I knew nothing about.

Anything I do on the internet is half shit post and half just trying to get people to notice the high grade products I make.

Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9eJgtgrvsk

Or, just come to Arnecon and play RPGs with Rob Kuntz.

My motto is is pretty simple, Keep real life out of Gaming Life.

As Mornard always says: You're arguing about Elf Games!

Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 02:28:48 PMThese are grown-ass adults acting like children

When you realize most grown-ass adults act like children, you have a better shot at understanding what's going on in the world.

Quote from: Baron on July 14, 2023, 05:16:37 PM

Quote from: blackstone on July 14, 2023, 09:48:14 AMI think I'm going to get it. The paperback version is $30. Quite the bargain. Plus it's a bit of early RPG history most gamers aren't aware of.

Not trying to start anything here, but when a $30 paperback book is "quite the bargain" I feel like I've slipped into the Twilight Zone.

The problem is that it's a small-press group putting out a product, which makes that product more expensive that it would have been if a large-press group put it out. The book itself (IMO) is a very good product, if you like that kind of thing. Do you like Arneson's "First Fantasy Campaign"? That's the kind of thing we're talking about. Dungeon actually written in the early 1970's, with rules from that same era. If that kind of thing is a big deal to you (as it is to me) it's a great product and worth the money.

The same group is also putting out a book in the next few weeks that has a bunch of Arneson's original notes. Costs around $35, I think. Also should be worth it to me.

If you aren't interested in the archeology of OD&D, probably not the books for you.

Quote from: BadApple on July 14, 2023, 03:03:17 AMWhat motivates the slander?  It seems stupid to go looking for goblins when there's ogres beating down the gates.

Because a blade in your back is worse than a spear in your breast.

I am confusion!!!

What is this latest tempest in a turdpot about?

Dave Arneson was a kewl dude who wrote kewl stuff. He's dead now. WTF is everybody fighting over?