Why is it that other prominent OSR crowdsource projects are running late (Raggi, Frog God Games, etc) and no-one is screaming blue murder?

Perhaps because the backers see frequent comms, apologies for delays and evidence of progress made? Possibly the comfort that these people acknowledge their responsibilities and are committed to seeing it through?

When was the last time James even directly addressed his backers (rather than hiding behing his patsy Autarch).

I put it that the bile and anger towards James are mostly down to some deep personality flaws he possesses rather than people's jealousy of his status as a prominent OSR blogger (which he no longer is in any case).

The fact that Dwimmermount appears to be lackluster at best doesn't help either. If the stuff in the draft was awesome I think there would be a lot more support/hope that he actually sees it through.

Quote from: JRT;625992Inventory Stories didn't start with Jim Shooter for the record.

Hon, I was gently underlining the complete irrelevance of shifting Marvel inventory policy to the outrage against this particular late kickstarter. I read Alter Ego too. Let it go.

But since we're here, the whole concept of the fill-in issue evolved for a simple commercial reason. If you did not meet your ship deadlines, you were in solicitation breach and the retailers could fuss and you would not get paid. The money came with a promise attached. Break the promise, forfeit the money.

With Dwimmermount, we have a situation where the original promise was broken. It didn't make its ship date. IRWS piped up. IRWS wanted his money back. IRWS is clearly the asshole. Because inventory stories. Huh?

Now these hypotheticals are interesting but perhaps in another context:

Quote from: JRT;625992Going back to the original situation--if James "gave up" his copyright and another person finished it, in an attempt to meet the deadlines--would that be satisfactory to the backers.  Is it just about the money or the promise?  Is the creator important in the equation.  

If Backer X fought to remove James from the creation, would Backer Y have a right to be upset because he'd rather wait for James to complete rather than have another person take it over?

That's where you have a grey area.

Sure. But remember, if you talk about grey areas, I'm going to talk about Gamer Stockholm Syndrome. Let's have a truce. Let's focus on exactly what we have: specific grievances, specific ways to do better in the future.

Otherwise, maybe Backer Y should've been forced to play more outdoor sports as a boy because he never developed a healthy sense of self. Maybe the entire project is in IP limbo anyway because of the way the cloned monsters fail to obey the SRD, so nobody wins. Maybe this is all a conspiracy to take down our friends at Autarch and "James Maliszewski" is really the evil Kevin Siembeda in drag.

We can all come up with maybes. We spend a lot of time imagining what it might be like to be an elf. For once, let's focus on what's right in front of us. Okay?

Quote from: Zachary The First;625878I can't be sure if you're serious or not, but as a frequent attendee of gun & knife shows, I can assure you this is actually the case.

I'm as serious as my friend who has waited 2+ years for his bark river custom...

QuoteWe can all come up with maybes. We spend a lot of time imagining what it might be like to be an elf. For once, let's focus on what's right in front of us. Okay?

I am focusing on the fact that while, there are backers like you who are annoyed at least, others are okay with it.  In fact, there was a poll done to see what the backers want, and the majority still want to wait to see it completed.  

And yes, I do think it's relevant to discuss the merits of a possible lawsuit if that lawsuit might anger the other backers.  That fact is right in front of us.  It is possible that if a class-action lawsuit was filed, other backers might object because the legal cure is not what they want.

Quote from: JRT;626006Your being deliberately obtuse now.  I am focusing on the fact that while, there are backers like you who are annoyed at least, others are okay with it.

Feel free to dissect my obtuseness. This line sounds a lot like what got me back on this thread today:

Quote from: JRT;625915I would suggest you consider what the majority of the backers want though.  If, say, only 10% of the backers are upset and 90% are willing to wait up to, say, 2 years, then I think it would be more constructive for you to just ask for a personal refund.  You shouldn't put it upon yourself to seek justice "for the group" if you are in the minority.

I said it then, and I'm saying it again. Maybe there are a million overwhelmingly happy customers. That's great! Hooray for gamers! But when the one or two or five people who have a problem speak up, why so eager to point out that the complainers are in the minority?

To me that looks like, ah, textbook Gamer Stockholm Syndrome at work, friend. Defending the in group against all perceived threats. Silencing dissent by appealing to what amounts to peer pressure. "Don't rock the boat for the rest of us, Backer X. We took a vote and everything's great."

Now as it happens, the backers did take a vote. I'm not sure how Tavis wrangled an extra survey out of KS -- did you guys use a third-party tool? -- but most of the backers are indeed overjoyed, supportive. etc. That's great.

So we can shout down the people with grievances and be happy. Or we can learn from their grievances. I'd rather do the latter, but then, I'm a Dwimmermount backer and have a say, right?

By the way, Wmarshal, were you talking class action or just a selfish one man's stab at restitution if not revenge?

Quote from: JRT;625967Based on what he said, it seems like he's aiming for that.  Normally, as an individual, he's allowed personal cure, which would be a personal refund of his cash.  If he was given that, I doubt he'd have any cause to sue beyond that level.

My grievance is both injury and the insult added to it. The $167 I gave is the injury I'm experiencing so long as James continues to shirk his commitments. The idea that James could wind up keeping most of the 50k while failing to meet his responsibilities to the backers and his business partners, and that I ever had anything to do with it is the insult.

I'm more interested in removing the insult than the injury at this point. And to me the insult would be removed by James meeting his commitments within the next 2-3 months (which seems very unlikely), or allowing Autarch to finish the job with the funds he was given for that purpose. Even if I was given a refund from Autarch (which may cause a run on them, which is not my intent) I am still going to do some research (may take some weeks to accomplish between work and life in general) into what the legal options are and try to present them to the backers. If those options require some up front fees I'd be willing to still donate a few hundred bucks to get the ball rolling. Why? Because to my mind the insult would still exist that James is shirking his responsibilities and I helped him gain 50k by participating in the Kickstarter. So if anyone thinks I can be sent $167 (and I'm not asking) know that will just be another $167 I would donate to handle any fees. Or $167 to set up a Let's Sue James website to help coordinate efforts amongst the remaining backers. Time and money well spent for my point of view.

Again, this may turn into nothing as I research if there are no truly viable options, but there's at least one example where success was had at just the 35k level.

What is giving me the most pause is that I would want to do this with the least amount of collateral damage to Autarch. They have been stand-up guys in how they've tried to handle the situation. Mistakes were made, but I don't doubt their commitment. Maybe the additional kickstarter for some of the rewards not tied to James is a little crazy, but if they can pull that off more power to them. I backed their Player's Companion. I'm a fan of ACKS. I would like to see them produce the Auren Empire setting, though the longer Dwimmermount drags on the less likely this will occur in my opinion.

As to kickstarter a being late, I've funded several others and this is not the first late kickstarter I've had. OGRE is late, but I see progress being made and I don't doubt the outcome. Reaper's Bones is late, but again I see progress and i don't doubt the outcome. Dwimmermount is at best going to whole year late at this rate if it ever gets finished, and I very much doubt the outcome. James disappears for months at a time bringing the project to a standstill. Autarch has to ride herd on James when he does show up just to keep things moving. I'm sure that is time Autarch would have rather spent with their families or working on other rpg products. Dwimmermount is not just a little late like half of the other kickstarters to say nothing of those that have finished on time. Dwimmermount is very late and unable to proceed because James is not meeting his commitments.

As for the will of the other backers I will try to get a feel for where they are at, but I will also present to them the argument that it is time to proceed with legal action if that is indeed possible, and try to convince them to join in the action. Maybe most of them currently say they're happy because they don't know what their options are.

Some have hinted that I'm (or nerds in general) not serious about this. I can only state that I am serious about this. I'm not here to just throw insults at James or mock him like some have. I don't have a site like YDIS to get entertainment value out of tearing James down. I'm not cursing and trying to pick a fight with any of James' defenders. (He sure doesn't seem to have earned such loyalty, but it is certainly yours to give.) I apologize if my use of GSS has offended some, and I will try to refrain from using GSS any more in this discussion.

I am serious about determining what the legal options are and exercising them if available.

Quote from: Gib;625988Your elfgames are a different hobby, stop trying to corrupt the purity of RPG.

Look, if you can't handle my disassociative elfmechanics that make Story Now, Cheetos Later! then I don't know what to tell you.

Quote from: Fiasco;625997Why is it that other prominent OSR crowdsource projects are running late (Raggi, Frog God Games, etc) and no-one is screaming blue murder?

Though late, those guys have a track record of finishing what they start.  That is not the case with Dwimmerount, and it looks like it won't come out at this point.

Quote from: wmarshal;626023My grievance is both injury and the insult added to it. The $167 I gave is the injury I'm experiencing so long as James continues to shirk his commitments. The idea that James could wind up keeping most of the 50k while failing to meet his responsibilities to the backers and his business partners, and that I ever had anything to do with it is the insult.

Thanks. I wish you -- and everybody on all sides -- sweet satisfaction.

Quote from: wmarshal;626023Even if I was given a refund from Autarch (which may cause a run on them, which is not my intent)

Just to piggyback on this because in my blathering I've forgotten to stress that if the refund channel was open, this would not be such a big deal. Unhappy people could cash out and shut up, everyone else could wait as long as they have to, hooray for gamers.

But last I heard they were simply referring refund queries to Grognardia, from which no reply emerged, so the situation is unusually tense. Other avenues may open up to make people whole but I don't want to speak for them at Autarch and Tavis has more important things to do (winterizing the twins and so on) than watch this thread like a hawk. Maybe if there's an update tomorrow.

Quote from: misterguignol;626028Though late, those guys have a track record of finishing what they start.  That is not the case with Dwimmerount, and it looks like it won't come out at this point.

Indeed. The anger over Dwimmermount isn't so much the lateness as its James' behavior. Which let us not forget, was poor from the money the kickstarter closed. He should have had the work wrapped long before his father's health took a turn for the worse.

I see we've movewd past the first round of apologetics and into the recursive round wherein we learn that GSS isn't actually GSS, but, rather, patience and decency. That is awrsome.

Quote from: Gib;626050I see we've movewd past the first round of apologetics and into the recursive round wherein we learn that GSS isn't actually GSS, but, rather, patience and decency. That is awrsome.

Your name in the revolution is Tatiana. AOS was your slave name. You're welcome.

What, no hug?

I feel pretty!

Somebody asked upthread about why Raggi isn't feeling the heat, I think it is because he never shuts up. Hell, if you want to know about his divorce, he's got a module that covers it.

Quote from: Gib;626056I feel pretty!

Oh we're so pretty
Oh so pretty we're vacant