Quote from: samovar;583395Sorry to throw reality on your brave!righteous!outburst, but your own time machine needs recalibration. YDIS was buzzing about the botched timetable by August 24.

Which would still make him a liar.

Quote from: samovar;583395What is IRWS lying about again? Where did he attribute the August 10 update to the "shitstorm?"

In this thread. In the post I quoted. In the message you replied. Here is again:

Quote from: I run with scissors;583231It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out.

See?

Plus, even if we find some place where Scissors was bitching on 8/9 (although in the link you provide, we can see that he's not claiming that), it doesn't change the fact that this "came out" in an update all the way back in June. There's absolutely no way to interpret Scissors claim here as anything but a complete and utter falsehood.

Quote from: samovar;583395The August 10 update was *what set IRWS off*.

Yes. The fact that IRWS is simultaneously claiming that the post which set him off only exists because it set him off is what makes him a lying sack of shit.

Quote from: EOTB;583580So, if the dungeon was done and it was turning his play copy into professional copy, why don't the backers have their original notes yet?  If the point was to incorporate feedback, wouldn't that be more likely to happen if a thousand backers were running the megadungeon in his notebook form?  

You don't need professional cartography to run a dungeon.  And there shouldn't be creative issues if the write-up is finished, other than deciding how you want it all to look.  But that's not the type of creativity issues I'm getting out of updates given by Tavis, along with the sporadic level releases.

This looks to me like he was not being honest, or else decided for a total rewrite (which again, partially invalidates the dungeon being "legendary"; perhaps the brand name of Dwimmermount was semi-legendary, but not the actual product).  Or perhaps he attempted puffery to a semi-ethical level and then couldn't get out in front of himself.

But you don't put a 2-month deadline on a creative project being delivered (you have to be done to send the PDF) unless you want people to think you are at the finish line already.

I don't particularly care one way or not, either, as I didn't back it.  But I think it is as close to a business case as the OSR will produce, that others can learn from, i.e. don't do it this way.

Careful there you might be labeled as a troll, or worse a liar.

That is the thing with all of this, and this is what I still have not gotten an answer too yet. Did Tavis and company do any due diligence before entering into this one-sided deal? There is enough evidence out there, that points to the fact that Jim was either:

1. Nearly done
2. Close to done
3. Almost done

Going into this one would be left to assume that this was almost done, and all it needed was the cash to get the rest of the art, and print it.

Only after it seems that Jim gets the cash, he ten realized he had to produce something.

In the end this was either very elaborate con, Jim was looking for a cash out, or Tavis and company are bad business men.

IRWS

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583590Which would still make him a liar.



In this thread. In the post I quoted. In the message you replied. Here is again:



See?

Plus, even if we find some place where Scissors was bitching on 8/9 (although in the link you provide, we can see that he's not claiming that), it doesn't change the fact that this "came out" in an update all the way back in June. There's absolutely no way to interpret Scissors claim here as anything but a complete and utter falsehood.



Yes. The fact that IRWS is simultaneously claiming that the post which set him off only exists because it set him off is what makes him a lying sack of shit.

Man you are so full shit. I spelled it out for you, and you still refuse to admit you are wrong. Keep saving face. It's ok.

IRWS

BTW, you should watch your tone, less you be labeled as vile. Still, maybe attacking me, makes the hurting go away.

Quote from: I run with scissors;583231It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out.

Quote from: I run with scissors;583452Richard Barton on August 20

What? How can this be? I am a lying "sack of shit" according to you. I have no idea who this backer is, but here is the first backer who expressed something other than sunshine and lollipops.

When you claim that a post that didn't exist until 8/20 was the reason something was posted on 8/10, you're a lying sack of shit. Thanks for confirming it in such a clear and concise fashion.

Quote from: EOTB;583580So, if the dungeon was done and it was turning his play copy into professional copy, why don't the backers have their original notes yet?

We do. We've had them for months.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583595We do. We've had them for months.

For all levels to be included in the final product?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583594When you claim that a post that didn't exist until 8/20 was the reason something was posted on 8/10, you're a lying sack of shit. Thanks for confirming it in such a clear and concise fashion.

Thanks for proving my point. You are wrong and you are still trying to save face.

It is obvious you would rather attack the messenger, then realize that:

1. Jim is wrong.
2. The Kickstarter is a scam.
3. You suffer from game Stockholm syndrome.

But by all means, keep yelling at me, and calling me names. Keep being willfully ignorant, and mis reading and mis representing my posts.

I bet in any second you will have to respond to this posting with one of the following tactics:

1. Call me a lying sack of shit.
2. Call me a troll.
3. Tell me to fuck off.
4. Twist my words to prove some mythological point you think you might have.

It is obvious from reading your responses to me, you have neither taken the time to read my posts, or you choose to be a vile person who would rather toss insults.

And true, I have called Jim a scam artists. But I have not taken any money from anyone and not delivered on promises. I have not bluffed a company to take all the risks for my scam while I pocket the money. Heck, look at how clever Jim is, no where is Groganardia Games anywhere on the Kickstarter. Isn't that something that should be a red flag?

But it is ok, I am a lying sack of shit.

IRWS

You know, I can understand why people whose own backers have been so patient about "cascading failures" to deliver might be eager to circle the wagons.

Quote from: I run with scissors;583597But it is ok, I am a lying sack of shit.

You make a good point here. I think that's something we can all agree on at this point.

Quote from: Benoist;583596For all levels to be included in the final product?

You're right. I've only gotten the first four. My mistake.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583613You're right. I've only gotten the first four. My mistake.

So, was the hype justified, or was I right to be skeptical?

Quote from: Dan Vincze;583616So, was the hype justified, or was I right to be skeptical?

I talked about this a couple pages back: The original key is pretty much completely uninspiring. I've only skimmed the material developed from that key, but my initial impression is that this is a generic dungeon with a generic map filled with generic stuff.

Again, this is based entirely on a skim read of incomplete material. But it seems to lack the identity of the Caverns of Thracia or Rappan Athuk. It lacks the attitude and heft of the Temple of Elemental Evil.

And the individual encounter key simply lacks cleverness or interest. For example, I just randomly stopped on a page featuring: A room full of webs with two giant spiders in it. A room with an animated statue that will attack anyone entering the chamber. A room with four gargoyles sitting on pedestals who will attack anyone entering the chamber.

Earlier in this thread a few people championed the idea that you can key a room with "8 skeletons" and then provide all the necessary details during play. Which is true. But unless you actually do something clever with those 8 skeletons, anybody can do that. And they can do it from a random stocking table. Most of what I'm seeing in Dwimmermount is just James using multiple sentences to write the equivalent of "8 skeletons".

Quote from: I run with scissors;583286In truth it has been instrumental in learning the psychology of most gamers. They rather live in a sunshine and lollipop lands rich on the scent of 1980's nostalgia, and pining away for the days when D&D could be found in any store.

Sounds good to me!!

Quote from: 1989;583448No product on time --> James refunds the money already.

That's what a proper businessman does.

Except that Kickstarter has a contract that lays out the rights and responsibilities for the backers and the creators. There is nothing in their agreement about delivering on time, just that the creator is expected to do his best and keep his backers informed.

I am NOT defending Grogtardia. Its ironic and hysterical that Dwimmermount is a meltdown, but Kickstarter backers need to understand the risks involved in being a patron to an artist and how its different than making a pre-order at Amazon.  

Quote from: I run with scissors;583461Case in point: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg

Holy cock dick cunt Batman! I am shocked at Guild of Blades, but also that "female poster" (its the internet so who knows) sounds nuts too.

At the very least Jmal has been misleading with his statements of the completion of Dwimmermount leading into the Kickstarter and Tavis and co fell for it hook, line and sinker. I can't really blame them, they presumably thought Jmal was a honorable guy who actually had what he lead people to believe. You can bet your bottom dollar this is the last co-op between Autarch and Grognardia.

In terms of taking responsibility for the delays and communicating with irate backers James has been nothing short of cowardly, leaving Tavis to take all the heat. Censoring unpleasant questions from the Grogtardia blog is more than pathetic. Man up for Christ's sake!

It reminds me very strongly of the Rob Kuntz fiascos where poor Alan Grogh killed himself trying to force Kuntz to make some semblance of delivering on his promises (also after he had pocketed the money and the blamed non delivery on bad health).

Quote from: I run with scissors;583476]
1. What do you think about a publisher who bullies a person who gives them a bad review (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg)

That is pretty fucked up.