Quote from: estar;582721In my opinion these type of statements do nothing to achieve any of the above goals.  In fact they are counterproductive. Either they make the author and the people (like Tavis) so jaded that they quit or deliver a sub par. And/or  people ignore your further statements regardless of their truth because they don't like reading missives by assholes.

I'm not a backer of this project, but, I am a backer of a couple of other RPG projects where similar issues have occurred (the project creator failing to deliver and disappearing).

I've got to say, regardless of how dickish the complaints are, or how dickish you perceive them to be, it's completely asinine to attempt to transfer blame for delays and failures to update to the complainer because the responsible party gets his precious feelings hurt.

That's just pure bullshit.

These people don't have any right to be upset when people call them on their crap - they're the ones that created this issue by failing to live up to the expectations they placed upon themselves.

I'm not talking a delay - delays happen.  I'm talking utter failure to communicate.  

I can accept that your personal problems have caused a delay in the project.  That's life.  Shit happens, and sometimes, it's far more important to handle that before anything else.

The thing is, unless you've been incarcerated, taken hostage, or somehow find yourself physically prevented from typing a few words on a keyboard, you need to update people and let them know that you're still alive, and let them know what the status is.

If you don't, you're an asshole, and you deserve all the flack you get.

In a day and age when a few taps of the screen on your freakin' telephone can send such an update, there's absolutely no excuse for such poor treatment of your customers.

Quote from: kythri;582728If you don't, you're an asshole, and you deserve all the flack you get.

In a day and age when a few taps of the screen on your freakin' telephone can send such an update, there's absolutely no excuse for such poor treatment of your customers.

So you are saying that this justify ANY level of rudeness and ANY style of commentary? That in your judgment what Scissors wrote is justified by James and Autarch's behavior?

My judgment is that Scissors style of airing complaints was not justified by the circumstances. However what was happening with Dwimmermount did require some hard questions to be answered about when and how the project is to be completed. If you disagree so be it, it is after all a judgment call and the line is different for everybody.

One further thing.

My comment on goals is important because if you want a completed quality product berating the author is not the way to get that no matter how much in the right you are. Something I learned when trying to deal with various suppliers at my manufacturing company. Many times we were absolutely in the right about some support or sales issue. But sometimes it required a firm but light touch to get what we wanted out of them.

Afterwards however there were consequences. Nothing hurts more than a damaged reputation especially on the internet. It is going to be no different with Dwimmermount or any other Kickstarter.

Runs With Scissors has clearly written off his investment. 'Gentle words' for the person responsible are clearly not on his agenda and fair enough. As a backer I would be genuinely concerned that James will be cranking out any old shit just to fulfill his obligations (up to a year late).

People bought into a storied dungeon with a long history and extensive gaming. What they might now get, eventually, is half the dungeon cranked out like so much spaghetti with maybe 1 2hr session in google+ as the only interaction with real life gaming.

I missed this kickstarter and was kicking myself for the lost opportunity. I dodged a bullet there. The contrast between Dwimmermount and the Frog God people is stark.

Quote from: estar;582735So you are saying that this justify ANY level of rudeness and ANY style of commentary? That in your judgment what Scissors wrote is justified by James and Autarch's behavior?

No, that's not what I'm saying.  One aspect of behavior doesn't justify another.

What I'm saying is that comments of the nature of "In fact they are counterproductive. Either they make the author and the people (like Tavis) so jaded that they quit or deliver a sub par." are nonsense.

You don't get to blame someone taking people's money and failing to deliver the product on a negative comment from someone who paid that person money for the product.

Quote from: estar;582735My judgment is that Scissors style of airing complaints was not justified by the circumstances. However what was happening with Dwimmermount did require some hard questions to be answered about when and how the project is to be completed. If you disagree so be it, it is after all a judgment call and the line is different for everybody.

Ultimately, I'm not commenting on the tone of the complaints.

I'm commenting on the reaction to those complaints.  By your attempts to shift the blame for failure to deliver from the people who have been paid money to someone who paid those people money, you're essentially advocating giving someone a free pass to abscond with folks money as long as words on a screen were conveyed impolitely.

Quote from: estar;582735My comment on goals is important because if you want a completed quality product berating the author is not the way to get that no matter how much in the right you are. Something I learned when trying to deal with various suppliers at my manufacturing company. Many times we were absolutely in the right about some support or sales issue. But sometimes it required a firm but light touch to get what we wanted out of them.

Y'know, when you're being paid money to do something, you put up or shut up.  Again, I'm not justifying anyone's comments here, but if you don't want the risk of people saying negative things about you, don't take their money.  If you don't like people saying negative things about you after you took their money and failed to deliver, then either address their complaints or refund their money.

Quote from: estar;582735Afterwards however there were consequences. Nothing hurts more than a damaged reputation especially on the internet. It is going to be no different with Dwimmermount or any other Kickstarter.

I disagree wholeheartedly, and I doubt that very much.  Internet fandom is quick to forget or forgive poor business/fraud, especially in the RPG field.

People are quick to defend their idols from criticism, and quick to throw more money at them after already being defrauded.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;582313...ASE needs more levels...

Yes it does.  Almost done, waiting for art to finish and tidying up the manuscript.  I am never giving a completion date again though, I thought this would be done in the spring. I am glad I don't have to worry about preorders or anything.

The geometric bit is spot on, smaller stuff is a lot easier to finish.

Quote from: Melan;582166Amateur publisher blows deadline, project hit with significant delays. Never heard of that one before.

I've back RPG kickstarters which didn't manifest a finished product for nearly a year after it was projected.

Patience is, indeed, a virtue.

QuoteAlso, one way to avoid that kind of thing is to start the Kickstarter with a completed or close to completed manuscript.

It may not always be that simple, the author may not wish - nor be able to afford - to spend the hundreds of hours of time investment on a product that they can never sell, and I can't blame them. If the kickstarter fails, they can redirect that effort into something more productive.

Quote from: kythri;582740Y'know, when you're being paid money to do something, you put up or shut up.  Again, I'm not justifying anyone's comments here, but if you don't want the risk of people saying negative things about you, don't take their money.  If you don't like people saying negative things about you after you took their money and failed to deliver, then either address their complaints or refund their money.

What I find frustrating about this is the idea that, 'Well, he's a gamer just like us, and stuff happens, so we need to cut him some slack.'

I don't for a moment pretend to understand gamers who are so quick to give publishers who don't deliver anything but excuses for missing deadlines a pass, particularly and especially after taking customers' money.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582396Then i would agree that kickstarters should come to the table with at least a manuscript/draft complete.

Or you should approach a kickstarter understanding that you're funding the creation of a project like the website fucking tells you, and you're not pre-ordering a finished product from a store like alot of Entitled Nerds think they are.

If you're impatient and can't handle the idea that the product isn't created yet, you shouldn't back a kickstarter, you should wait for a standard pre-order from the publisher or whatever distributor they choose.

I do think creators need to do better at managing the expectations of their backers and making more realistic deadlines, but it's important for people to remember that Kickstarter is NOT pre-ordering, it's funding the project's creation, and that may very well include the content.

On further refelction, the only reason I'm not mad is because I've been getting the previews and, frankly, I'm not terribly excited about Dwimmermount anymore. mIt's OK, I guess, but nothing to write home about.

Also, worst case scenario, all I lose is $10.

I feel sorry for Tavis, who's a good guy who doesn't deserve this sort of flak. I sympathize with James Malizewski's troubles, but like others have pointed out, maybe it's time to cut back on the blog posting and get crackin' on Dwimmermount.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;582771I've back RPG kickstarters which didn't manifest a finished product for nearly a year after it was projected.

Patience is, indeed, a virtue.



It may not always be that simple, the author may not wish - nor be able to afford - to spend the hundreds of hours of time investment on a product that they can never sell, and I can't blame them. If the kickstarter fails, they can redirect that effort into something more productive.

I am patient and can afford to wait. Delays pop up .That isn't an issue. The only issue that I am concerned with is this: If the kickstarter money is being used for living expenses and the project is taking much longer than expected, where will the money to get the printing done actually come from?

Quote from: I run with scissors;582497How in the hell am I troll when I was actually, you know, connecting the dots? Because I fucking choose to swear and pepper my posts with curse worlds? Whatever.

It's not curse words, it's not what you're saying.  It's more how you're saying it.

But hey, you're actually doing something positive with Dwimmerdust, which I've been watching, so there's that.

Quote from: I run with scissors;582488A troll is someone who does not bring anything. So I choose to swear, fuck that.

lolwhat? Swearing is what you contribute?

I'm laughing at the idea that James' blog posts are somehow taking time away from Dwimmermount.

Quote from: Planet Algol;582838I'm laughing at the idea that James' blog posts are somehow taking time away from Dwimmermount.

How so? They are a lot of work. They also took priority during the health problems.

Quote from: Planet Algol;582838I'm laughing at the idea that James' blog posts are somehow taking time away from Dwimmermount.

If one post takes a half-hour to prep, that's one half-hour less he's spending getting his project out on time.

It's all how you prioritize your time. He apparently thinks there's a strong demand for Ares retrospectives.