Apparently Dwimmermount is way out of schedule, the PDFs and books have not materialized, so some people who have backed the kickstarter are getting really pissed now at James M.
You can read about it on this thread of Autarch's forums: http://www.autarch.co/forums/dwimmermount/scam
Anybody funded the project here? I just thought I'd share the news about this, if anyone was left in the cold or wondered where this was going. Lots of details about deadlines and the development of the project shared by Tavis who's doing a great job of trying to keep everyone informed. It can also serve as an example for people who are thinking about kickstarters and stuff.
Disclaimer:I worked with James on several projects like Cursed Chateau
"I run with scissors" is being a dick about it but the project needed to get back on track with a realistic schedule.
The work on a RPG Projects increases geometrically not linearly with the size of the locale being covered. Writing nine levels of a mega dungeon is not nine times the work of writing one but more. So it not surprising the deadline on this was going to be badly blown.
The big lesson is that communication and planning is crucial to a successful Kickstarter Project not just for funding but seeing it to completion.
I have confidence that James will have a solid project completed and done for everybody despite the delays.
Amateur publisher blows deadline, project hit with significant delays. Never heard of that one before.
Also, one way to avoid that kind of thing is to start the Kickstarter with a completed or close to completed manuscript.
I helped fund it. I also don't have a problem with the delays - those things always happen.
(Of course, I am losing interest in the project.)
Quote from: Melan;582166Also, one way to avoid that kind of thing is to start the Kickstarter with a completed or close to completed manuscript.
That's basically my take-away from this.
Quote from: estar;582164The work on a RPG Projects increases geometrically not linearly with the size of the locale being covered. Writing nine levels of a mega dungeon is not nine times the work of writing one but more. So it not surprising the deadline on this was going to be badly blown.
This is correct, and it applies to other hobbies just as well as RPGs. My other hobby is building levels for Thief and more recently
The Dark Mod (http://www.thedarkmod.com/main/). Early last year, some of us got together to create a full-blown campaign (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=21474) to gain the mod more exposure (there are 55+ maps out there, but they are mostly unrelated). We decided to start with a modest plan that amounted to pooling a number of missions we had all been working on individually, and which were all around 60-75% done. We figured a neat 6-month schedule to get it done, edit it together with simple briefings and so on. After all, all of us have made missions, some of us multiple ones.
And, uh, a year and a half later, we are making progress, but still working on the thing. The increase of the workload is geometric all right. A large, complex single mission is not as much work as six missions that are individually one sixth the size, and this is a multi-mission pack. The same applies to modules, of course.
The crucial difference is, we didn't take anyone's money. Dwimmermount did, and it was actually one of the most successful Kickstarters out there. With that kind of success you get extra scrutiny.
Quote from: Jacob Marley;582170I helped fund it. I also don't have a problem with the delays - those things always happen.
I helped fund it as well and I'm not terribly upset by the delays... probably because I'm not surprised by the delays given I thought the projected completion dates were as laughably too soon as the ones a former boss of mine would come up with for programming projects.
Quote from: Benoist;582171That's basically my take-away from this.
Yeah, having done a kickstarter before (and succeeded), it always strikes me odd that people would put out a kickstarter and not have hardly anything done. That's a recipe for disaster. I don't even know how they know what goals to set because without all of this already determined, you don't know what your costs are to get the project done in the first place.
A far, far more accurate title for this thread would be "One malignant aspie is really fucking pissed at James M. and Dwimmermount, while other backers express mild concern."
I'm a backer, and I really don't give a shit about the delays. A major reason behind them -- a serious, unforeseen family emergency -- is a pretty damned good reason. (An example of a really bad reason would be the primary author being distracted by other projects.)
On the whole, both James and Autarch have done a decent job communicating openly and honestly about the situation. And if anything, they have been bending over too far to accommodate a couple of crybabies like Runs with Scissors. Could they have done a better job being out in front of the bad news? Sure, and Tavis would be the first to admit it.
My patience is not inexhaustible; I am no all weather Jamie Mal superfan, rain or shine. I have been in on some pre-orders that were truly run poorly, with far longer delays and with far less communication. That's an unacceptable situation.
In contrast, this is a well-run project that has just happened to run into some shit luck and has blown the original deadline. *Shrug.* Backers have been seeing drafts of material all along, and what I've seen so far has been really good. Autarch has been extremely patient with the grievers and is attempting to make amends. I can't ask for much more, and frankly I don't think I deserve much more than that.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;582180Yeah, having done a kickstarter before (and succeeded), it always strikes me odd that people would put out a kickstarter and not have hardly anything done. That's a recipe for disaster. I don't even know how they know what goals to set because without all of this already determined, you don't know what your costs are to get the project done in the first place.
I got the feeling that James M. felt his notes on Dwimmermount were a strong enough basis to support the Kickstarter. This wasn't his first dog-and-pony show; he is a published author of game books. So, I take him at his word when he stated that family issues (health issues with his dad, I think) were the root cause of the delays.
Not concernead about delays, but I am curious if Dwimmermount is 1E compatable?
Quote from: Melan;582166Also, one way to avoid that kind of thing is to start the Kickstarter with a completed or close to completed manuscript.
I agree, and formed this opinion before reading anything about what was happening with Dwimmermount. Of course some projects need stuff in order to be completed like the DCC RPG App Kickstarter. The programmer needed more tablets and gear in order to finish the project.
But for publishing everything that could possibly be done within the talents of the publishers should be ready to go before starting the project. Anything for stretch goals should be mostly done.
For me personally that means the writing is finished and edited as well as the maps. Likely what I would use Kickstarter to fund projects involving poster size maps or boxes. Use the money to pay the cost for art and print runs. The big first time item for me would be how to handle the volume of shipping once it completed.
I hope the whole thing doesn't sour before I am ready because it seems like a great middle point while bootstrapping the scope of your publishing projects.
Quote from: Bill;582187Not concernead about delays, but I am curious if Dwimmermount is 1E compatable?
As compatible as Keep on the Borderlands. Which to say very compatible although written for an older edition.
Quote from: estar;582190As compatible as Keep on the Borderlands. Which to say very compatible although written for an older edition.
I managed to get a 1E group going; starting Sunday. Allthough I would not expect Dwimmermount to be ready for this campaign, I am likely to keep doing 1E for years.
Mmmmmm...my 1E fix is about to start after many, many years of 3X/4X.
Can't wait!
Quote from: estar;582190As compatible as Keep on the Borderlands. Which to say very compatible although written for an older edition.
Stats are suppposed to be spelled out for ACKS (which is a modded Moldvay-Cook B/X) or Labyrinth Lord (the direct clone of B/X) if I'm not mistaken?
Quote from: Jacob Marley;582184I got the feeling that James M. felt his notes on Dwimmermount were a strong enough basis to support the Kickstarter. This wasn't his first dog-and-pony show; he is a published author of game books. So, I take him at his word when he stated that family issues (health issues with his dad, I think) were the root cause of the delays.
I apologize, I was talking more of generalities, and not this particular issue specifically.
Its interesting that under the Kickstarter terms and conditions it seems you are not entitled to a refund as long as Kickstarter deems that the project is being undertaken in 'good faith'.
Quote from: Benoist;582193Stats are suppposed to be spelled out for ACKS (which is a modded Moldvay-Cook B/X) or Labyrinth Lord (the direct clone of B/X) if I'm not mistaken?
Yes, Dwimmermount will be compatible with both. I believe they will be two separate books.
File me under "mild concern" (then again all I shelled out is $10 for the PDF). It seems Malizewski had some serious RL trouble and both him and the Autarch crew have been apologizing profusely.
Quote from: jadrax;582207Its interesting that under the Kickstarter terms and conditions it seems you are not entitled to a refund as long as Kickstarter deems that the project is being undertaken in 'good faith'.
Yes. I didn't know that either before checking out that thread.
Quote from: Melan;582166Also, one way to avoid that kind of thing is to start the Kickstarter with a completed or close to completed manuscript.
Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation, I mean art is probably the single most expensive thing in any RPG production (barring shipping and printing costs), and its hard to wow the crowds with an artless kickstarter.
The Zweihander stuff for example is amazing, but envision the same thing with no art or very basic graphics, there wouldn't be much interest. So you need the moneys to get the kickstarter rolling, but you don't need the kickstarter if you have the moneys.
At that point you're using kickstarter as a fancy preordering tool, something it excels at. Not much good for a nameless nobody however. Yes, its hard to get people to hand you cash when you haven't any track record or actual product.
are any of the backers out of pocket from this?
As a ten dollah backer, I don't mind the delays in Dwimmermount - though I am getting a case of the "Who needs another megadungeon"s lately - but I just know this means nobody is *ever* going to see Petty Gods.
Quote from: Roger the GS;582240As a ten dollah backer, I don't mind the delays in Dwimmermount - though I am getting a case of the "Who needs another megadungeon"s lately - but I just know this means nobody is *ever* going to see Petty Gods.
Nobody's ever going to see Dwimmermount, either.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582233are any of the backers out of pocket from this?
I am in for $60.00.
Family emergency aside, I think the whine about "why is he posting four times a week instead of working on Dwimmermount" has a certain ring to it. I can understand the concern.
Quote from: The Traveller;582227Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation, I mean art is probably the single most expensive thing in any RPG production (barring shipping and printing costs), and its hard to wow the crowds with an artless kickstarter.
...
At that point you're using kickstarter as a fancy preordering tool, something it excels at. Not much good for a nameless nobody however. Yes, its hard to get people to hand you cash when you haven't any track record or actual product.
This does not apply here, though, since James has written several RPG supplements - way before he started his blog, actually. Also, the issue is not procuring art and doing the layout, it is turning a bunch of handwritten notes into a manuscript, then a printed product. Different stuff.
Quote from: thedungeondelverNobody's ever going to see Dwimmermount, either.
That's exaggerating. If people want to worry about something, they shouldn't worry about getting something for their money, they should worry about what they will be getting. So far, the levels I have seen as a PDF-level backer have been a bit too heavy on the lairs and storerooms and "used to be a sacristy, now empty" stuff. I mean, ASE made me enthusiastic as hell while I was reading it (alas, it was some of my friends who ended up playing it, and we meet too rarely for me to participate), and this product doesn't do that so far. It's very vanilla.
Family crisis aside there are a number of things JM should be held accountable for. Runs With Scissors was over the top but it's thanks to him that these issues are being addressed. The blog posts thing is very telling. He family crisis didn't seem to impact them at all. JM has also not said anything to the public about his delays. I feel sorry for Tavis who has had to wear all the shit while JM makes multiple blog updates.
Quote from: Melan;582251Also, the issue is not procuring art and doing the layout, it is turning a bunch of handwritten notes into a manuscript, then a printed product. Different stuff.
A lot of established RPG companies pay their artists on a "when the sales come in you'll get your cheque" basis, but realistically they have a track record. Speaking from a different perspective, the arts students looking to pad out their portfolio are a bit thin on the ground.
Quote from: Jacob Marley;582170I helped fund it. I also don't have a problem with the delays - those things always happen.
(Of course, I am losing interest in the project.)
I too am losing interest in this project. Instead I'll read and play Esteren and Conspiracy X, the books for which arrived in a timely fashion on my doorstep.
Big delays in production kill the internet-impulse-buy buzz.
Quote from: Roger the GS;582240... though I am getting a case of the "Who needs another megadungeon"s lately ...
There are not that many modern examples of the things. Darkness Beneath, Stonehell, Mad Archmage.
ASE needs more levels and Bowman needs to resurface.
I'm a backer. I'm not really surprised at the delay. I assume James will finish the project eventually. He has a track record, at least.
Also, Autarch and James did send an email to all backers about the delay and apologized for it.
Oh my god...
A small press publisher has missed a deadline...
THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!
also:
Nerd is butturt that the world doesn't revolve around them, film at 11.
also:
A kickstarter is not a pre-order, don't treat it like one.
I'm in for $65.00
As long as the project gets done I'm not worried about delays. I don't put up money I need to live on for a kickstarter.
If the project never happens then I will expect a refund because that would be the worst possible case of bad faith.
In the meantime, if it takes a while then so be it.
Quote from: Piestrio;582324A kickstarter is not a pre-order, don't treat it like one.
I agree. Oddly though, accordingly to KS rules, if you say you are going to deliver rewards on a certain date then you are obliged to do so. So yeah, its not a preorder, but the involvement of an external party may actually make it a more strict obligation to be met in practice.
I'm in for $10 for the pdf, and frankly I could care less about this. I was basically giving James cash (and he did both greyhawkgrognard and myth & magic a solid, so reciprocity baby).
But, it is a real issue because atm Tavis in up the creek with a broken paddle. He is having to do a great deal of unpaid project management AND his company would be liable if something were to happen. The fact that he is pushing to get the current material digitized is a firewall in case a shit rain were to fall.
Quote from: Benoist;582156Apparently Dwimmermount is way out of schedule, the PDFs and books have not materialized, so some people who have backed the kickstarter are getting really pissed now at James M.
:rotfl:
That's the campaign-dungeon his own players bailed on out of boredom, right?
Quote from: languagegeek;582279Big delays in production kill the internet-impulse-buy buzz.
You've summed up my feelings on the matter better than I could.
Quote from: jadrax;582207Its interesting that under the Kickstarter terms and conditions it seems you are not entitled to a refund as long as Kickstarter deems that the project is being undertaken in 'good faith'.
Yeah, that's too loosey-goosey for me. (And is one of the reasons I haven't backed any Kickstarter projects, despite thinking the crowd-funding concept is a good thing.)
I imagine my approach to a "I'm feeling burned" Kickstarter would be to send a polite email to the producers telling them I understand the unfortunate delays (or whatever), and sympathize, but that I'd like for my money to be refunded, and I'm sure they understand my position and view on the situation.
While such a project might not be legally required to refund my money under that mile-wide "good faith" loophole, I imagine that approach would have a better chance of success. Besides, you can always complain and raise hell if being nice fails.
(Not talking about Dwimmermount, specifically -- just Kickstarter projects and tardiness or other forms of dissatisfaction, in general.)
Delays are always frustrating, usually for all parties involved, I speak from experience.
That said, it'd be worse if there are preorders or payments already made or the like.
RPGPundit
I'm no fan of James M and I think everybody needs to chillax.
Real life happens and causes delays. Be patient.
But hot damn, Runs with Scissors is perfect for this forum. That's nigh-eloquent assholioism.
Quote from: Fiasco;582253I feel sorry for Tavis who has had to wear all the shit while JM makes multiple blog updates.
Tavis is a good guy and doesn't deserve this shit.
The enthusiasm for Dwimmermount puzzles me. I've read JM's blog; it's vacuous. What opinions he does have are so often couched in qualifiers and trepidation, I can't imagine anything mildly interesting about his dungeon.
Lately, he's reduced to listing the contents of Ares magazine. Talk about shitting out filler. I suppose he has nothing better to do.
Quote from: Jacob Marley;582245I am in for $60.00.
What I mean: have you actually paid the money yet or can you back out at this point? If, say, you're an irate nerd!
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582391What I mean: have you actually paid the money yet or can you back out at this point? If, say, you're an irate nerd!
Kickstarter takes the money at the end of the pledge drive, so yes, all the backers are out of pocket and the money is now all resting in James M's account.
Then i would agree that kickstarters should come to the table with at least a manuscript/draft complete.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582396Then i would agree that kickstarters should come to the table with at least a manuscript/draft complete.
Personally I figure as long as people are clear about where they are in the process I think it's OK. I've backed both Deadlands Noir and Numenera, both of which were clearly pretty early in the development process based on the estimated delivery dates.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582396Then i would agree that kickstarters should come to the table with at least a manuscript/draft complete.
That was indeed the impression given at the beginning, that the pledge drive was to get the thing polished up a bit and ready for a decent print job. If it had been plainly stated at the start that it was largely not even written yet then I don't know if even the initial goal would have been met.
Quote from: Fiasco;582253Family crisis aside there are a number of things JM should be held accountable for. Runs With Scissors was over the top but it's thanks to him that these issues are being addressed. The blog posts thing is very telling. He family crisis didn't seem to impact them at all. JM has also not said anything to the public about his delays. I feel sorry for Tavis who has had to wear all the shit while JM makes multiple blog updates.
Yeah, IRWS is a first-order troll, but he did point out a lot that wasn't adding up. The blog posts continuing 3-4/day, the monster notes being lent to someone who moved away, etc. And no word to backers.
I'm just surprised at how little of his dungeon James M seems to have had completed even in skeletal form.
Agreed with other folks who say it just looks bland. The levels themselves look pretty cramped...uninspiring, tbh.
Quote from: Grymbok;582399Personally I figure as long as people are clear about where they are in the process I think it's OK. I've backed both Deadlands Noir and Numenera, both of which were clearly pretty early in the development process based on the estimated delivery dates.
I watched Black Dynamte t'other week.
I would (might) back Deadlands: Blaxploitation, appropos of nothing.
Why don't these people communicate with their backers more? Does the internets teach us nothings?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582459I watched Black Dynamte t'other week.
I would (might) back Deadlands: Blaxploitation, appropos of nothing.
Why don't these people communicate with their backers more? Does the internets teach us nothings?
Some do, some don't. It's generally going to be the ones who don't that we hear about, because people are more inclined to complain about bad practise than praise "good enough".
From my experience I would say that most Kickstarter runners seem to be wary of sending out updates that don't have much "new news". This is probably actually a bad thing, as if you don't hear from a project for a while you tend to forget what's going on with it. As an example - I backed the Player's Companion for ACKS, and if you asked me this morning what was going on I would have said it was late and I hadn't heard anything in ages and had no idea when it was coming out. But looking on Kickstarter it turns out that they did an update four weeks ago giving a status update and a new delivery date. They're off track on that new date again now, but only by a week or so, and the latest comments on the Kickstarter suggest the PDFs are going out any day now, so it's no big deal.
Quote from: estar;582164Disclaimer:I worked with James on several projects like Cursed Chateau
"I run with scissors" is being a dick about it but the project needed to get back on track with a realistic schedule.
Why am I being a dick? Because I dare to poke my finger in the eye of Jim the Scam and his Dwimmerfail?
Please.
All my points were never refuted, instead I was attacked for being a troll. A troll is someone who does not bring anything. So I choose to swear, fuck that.
In the end, Tavis never answered any of my questions. Jim is a scammer. He is a lazy creator, and the hypocrisy is ripe. Yeah he had family issues, but the m-fer had no problem summarizing Ares magazines and dicking around on his ponderous blog.
Whatever.
IRWS
Quote from: Garnfellow;582183A far, far more accurate title for this thread would be "One malignant aspie is really fucking pissed at James M. and Dwimmermount, while other backers express mild concern."
HAHAHAHAHA.
A more...
Wait a minute.
HAHAHAHAHA
A more accurate title should be a bunch of gamers got screwed, and they have nothing to show for it.
As I have said a lot of time, strip away the swearing, none of the facts have ever been refuted. Non of the questions have never been answered. The only explanations Jim the Scam have made of screwing the backers is the private postings. Dwimmerfail is still not being talked about on his blog.
I am continually amazed how stupid gamers are, in that the excuse lazy ass scam artists.
Still attack the messenger, and not the message. Typical RPGer behavior.
IRWS
Quote from: VectorSigma;582246Family emergency aside, I think the whine about "why is he posting four times a week instead of working on Dwimmermount" has a certain ring to it. I can understand the concern.
Someone is starting to get it.
Another question that has not been answered: why no finished manuscript before taking money?
IRWS
Quote from: Fiasco;582253Family crisis aside there are a number of things JM should be held accountable for. Runs With Scissors was over the top but it's thanks to him that these issues are being addressed. The blog posts thing is very telling. He family crisis didn't seem to impact them at all. JM has also not said anything to the public about his delays. I feel sorry for Tavis who has had to wear all the shit while JM makes multiple blog updates.
I felt sorry for Tavis up to a point. Once he dropped the nugget that their deal with Jim the Scam was to run the Kickstarter, and then give Jim the Scam all the money, before anything was published. Once that dropped I lost all sympathy for him, because he either willingly or ignorantly went into this scam.
As for me, I will admit that my style is a little over the top. So fucking what. No one started calling foul until I spoke up.
IRWS
Quote from: danbuter;582320I'm a backer. I'm not really surprised at the delay. I assume James will finish the project eventually. He has a track record, at least.
Also, Autarch and James did send an email to all backers about the delay and apologized for it.
I have no faith in James. He cannot finish anything he has started:
I backed Dwimmermount in good faith. Reading Jim the Scam's endless blog postings, it was "apparent" that there was a lot of this mother fucker already done. When all communication dropped off, I got worried. The reason is simple, Jim the Scam never sticks to anything. I've listed it once, but here it is again:
1. Fourth Millennium announced with much flourish. A little Google Search:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?319002-Whatever-happend-to-Fourth-Mi...
http://roguegamesblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/in-which-richard-shares-h...
2. Thousand Suns? A game he professes great love for, and of which he did not support let alone do anything with. The Revision took forever, and all of his promised projects have not materialized.
3. Petty Gods. This is the biggest scam. Fuck man, he has all the fucking art and writing. He says as much on his fucking blog. It has been two years, and still nothing. Why the fuck not? He has no problems begging for free game goods on his blog. Free art. Free writing. Why the fuck not beg for some fucking free layout help?
4. Megadungeon.net — don't even go to the URL, it is not there anymore. Remember when he got sand in his vagina about Cook's stupid Dungeon a Day thing? And James makes all these proclamations that the shit should be free? Yeah, I do too (http://roguegamesblog.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/rogue-games-bids-you-to-e...). Where the fuck is it, and the content that once was there? What, this cannot be right? James would not do something like this? Well he seemed pretty fucking happy here (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/04/megadungeonnet.html).
He can never finish anything, and in the case of Petty Gods, carry anything out.
IRWS
Quote from: Spinachcat;582372I'm no fan of James M and I think everybody needs to chillax.
Real life happens and causes delays. Be patient.
But hot damn, Runs with Scissors is perfect for this forum. That's nigh-eloquent assholioism.
Mention my name three times, and I appear.
IRWS
Quote from: FASERIP;582375Tavis is a good guy and doesn't deserve this shit.
The enthusiasm for Dwimmermount puzzles me. I've read JM's blog; it's vacuous. What opinions he does have are so often couched in qualifiers and trepidation, I can't imagine anything mildly interesting about his dungeon.
Lately, he's reduced to listing the contents of Ares magazine. Talk about shitting out filler. I suppose he has nothing better to do.
Yes he does. He entered into a one way business contract with a known lazy ass writer, whose recent history has shown he cannot finish anything he has started.
*cough* *cough*
Petty Gods ring a bell?
He has all the writing, art and he still cannot get off his ass and get it out.
IRWS
What happens when/if someone brings that up on James' blog? Does he delete comments or something?
Quote from: KenHR;582427Yeah, IRWS is a first-order troll, but he did point out a lot that wasn't adding up. The blog posts continuing 3-4/day, the monster notes being lent to someone who moved away, etc. And no word to backers.
How in the hell am I troll when I was actually, you know, connecting the dots? Because I fucking choose to swear and pepper my posts with curse worlds? Whatever.
QuoteI'm just surprised at how little of his dungeon James M seems to have had completed even in skeletal form.
And it was this as well as learning Jim the Scam lent out his notes to the lower levels to a freind, who took them and moved somewhere, and somewhen.
IRWS
Quote from: Benoist;582496What happens when/if someone brings that up on James' blog? Does he delete comments or something?
Yup.
http://dwimmerdust.tumblr.com/post/30870591169/seems-like-someone-has-sand-in-his-vagina
IRWS
Dude, multi-quote is your friend.
Quote from: One Horse Town;582499Dude, multi-quote is your friend.
Dude, I answered them as I read them.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;582500Dude, I answered them as I read them.
IRWS
Cool start of a dungeon on your blog. You are going to keep this up?
Add maps and stuff too at some point?
Quote from: Benoist;582515Cool start of a dungeon on your blog. You are going to keep this up?
Add maps and stuff too at some point?
Yeah, I am writing Dwimmerdust as a stream of conciseness. I am trying to knock out a room a day, and so far I think I have ideas for 10 levels. Maps for the levels will be put up as I draw them. In short I am just tapping the vein and I am curious where I can take this without any real plan.
I do have a two sentence long plot, and I think I will mention it this weekend.
The dungeon started as a joke, as well as a dare from a poster at another blog, and I sort of just went with it.
I think the best way to look at Dwimmerdust, at least on the blog, is as a rough draft. This is just me, knocking out the words, and putting down the rough plan. Once I have the rough draft down, it will be collected and edited.
I will readily admit that the dungeon is rough, but in this case, it is sort of done to prove a point. That point? Creating content is not hard, simply let yourself write and see what happens.
In short, what started out as a middle finger to Jim the Scam, is now becoming something more. It is a running commentary in large part to the OSR cut-and-paste crowd.
As for maps, there is one map now for Level 1 (http://dwimmerdust.tumblr.com/maps). It is crude, but that is sort of the point. I simply just sketched it as it came out. Level 2 is a map I need to scan and clean up.
Thanks for the kind words, the blog is here to stay. I am shooting for at least one posting a day, and one room a day. Some days there may be more.
IRWS
PS. I realized I have not cursed yet. Fuck. I feel better
I'm still trying to figure out how he got such a big following. Was it because he posted at such a prolific pace when he started his blog? The stuff he posted in the early days was much better. I found myself reading that. I skim over most of his newer material.
That's a big part of it. The early stuff was actually quite good, including his session write-ups for Dwimmermount. The last year or so, it's dropped off quite a bit.
Quote from: Endless Flight;582520I'm still trying to figure out how he got such a big following. Was it because he posted at such a prolific pace when he started his blog? The stuff he posted in the early days was much better. I found myself reading that. I skim over most of his newer material.
I think at the time, he was doing something no one else was doing. Then he turned into a ponderous a-hole.
I will freely admit, when Jim the Scam is on, he can writer some really good things. Yet, when he is not on, forget it.
If anything, I think he would do well to take a break from the blog. No one can keep up with that much posting.
IRWS
Quote from: Benoist;582496What happens when/if someone brings that up on James' blog? Does he delete comments or something?
He's very thin-skinned, and prone to pearl-clutching, so I'm sure they get deleted.
Quote from: I run with scissors;582531I will freely admit, when Jim the Scam is on, he can writer some really good things.
LOL. I'm glad JaMal has your money. You deserve to get ripped off.
Maybe you should send him some Star Wars figurines or whatever he's blegging for this week while you're at it.
Quote from: Benoist;582156Anybody funded the project here?
I funded when it hit the "you get to see Maliszewski's original notes" stretch goal.
I think posting updates saying (paraphrasing) "this was originally scheduled for 8/29" and "we've caught up to our original schedule" when you originally claimed it was going to be delivered in June 2012 makes you look really, really bad.
By contrast,
Legends & Labyrinths is also running way behind my original delivery hopes. But I've been open with my backers about the production problems I've run into and, with one exception (where someone posted a request for information as a comment on a random post on my blog, I didn't see it, and they got upset at a lack of response), people have been understanding and even supportive. (Even if I, personally, feel like a sack of shit about it most of the time.)
But if I were to post something that said, "Well, here we are in September 2012 and we're currently hitting all of our internal deadlines for this project!" I'm pretty sure my backers would say, "Fuck you, Justin."
With that being said: Digging a little deeper, we discover that the "internal deadlines" that Scissors is bitching about were actually set at the beginning of August in order to get the project back on track. This is not only clear from Tavis' reply to Scissors, but is also obvious if you actually read the project updates on Kickstarter.
Conclusion: Scissors is being fundamentally dishonest in his complaint. (Which doesn't mean people don't have something to complain about; just that Scissors isn't exactly exemplary in his conduct.)
QuoteLots of details about deadlines and the development of the project shared by Tavis who's doing a great job of trying to keep everyone informed.
As a backer, this would be my take-away: They've been feeding us material and I've been generally satisfied with the experience. OTOH, this was never something I had a real burning passion for. Maybe if I had felt the burning pang of "I want it right now!" I might have less patience.
Or maybe my reaction would be different if my reaction to the material we've seen as backers wasn't "meh". There's simply nothing interesting, original, or, IMO, valuable in Dwimmermount. It's a generic dungeon with generic maps and generic content.
Quote from: Endless Flight;582520I'm still trying to figure out how he got such a big following.
I'd guess a combination of factors:
(1) There were fewer voices competing for the OSR ear when he started.
(2) He was an established RPG author and had a pre-existing rep.
(3) His earlier material was better, largely because he was making fresh observations and had a unique point of view.
At this point, I find his blog is generally just regurgitating the same points he made years ago. I end up skimming or skipping most of his stuff.
Quote from: I run with scissors;582491Another question that has not been answered: why no finished manuscript before taking money?
Yeah, that strikes me as pretty sketchy. It's not like he needed the money to WRITE the wretched thing.
Quote from: Endless Flight;582520I'm still trying to figure out how he got such a big following.
Train wrecks attract attention.
Kickstarter goals are (https://ksr-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/creator-responsibility.png) considering binding, although Kickstarter itself suggests requesting a refund or legal action only if there is no good-faith attempt to fulfill goals (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#AreCreaLegaObliToFulfThePromOfTheiProj). ((Actual enforcement is a different matter, especially given the low investments.))
You can get around the "complexity increasing geometrically" issue with great management, although I'll admit it's more common for bad management to cause complexity to increase the exponential growth instead.
Quote from: Melan;582166Also, one way to avoid that kind of thing is to start the Kickstarter with a completed or close to completed manuscript.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582396Then i would agree that kickstarters should come to the table with at least a manuscript/draft complete.
That's viable if you're intending Kickstarter to take the place of a publisher, or of distributors. There's a lot of folk for whom that's a very reasonable goal; publishing is a cut-throat and out-of-touch industry that's highly prone to tedious intervention, since that's kinda their jobs when they hire editors. The
Order of the Stick reprint drive base goals are a good example of this matter.
For garage-style development, though, a complete draft represents a pretty sizable amount of energy and manpower and costs, which an expert can reasonably estimate but not want to commit without certainty of sales or payment. While a lot of the 10,000 USD estimate probably would go to delayable matters, like art, playtesting, and infrastructure, under everything else it's still a nontrivial time investment for the base manuscript. Without knowing the level of interest of potential paying customers, there's little reason to refine a matter into a manuscript from complete notes. The relatively low cost of the Kickstarter goal likely reflects more of an interest in estimating desires of the potential purchasers, rather than grander or riskier goals.
That said, there's a lot that can be done for such idea-guys. The lack of demonstratable milestones -- or better, deliverables -- isn't a great sign, especially from someone with an industry background. Those sort of task lists turn a freelance hobby into a job, but that's kinda the point: this
is a job once you've taken that much money for it.
Quote from: Endless Flight;582520I'm still trying to figure out how he got such a big following. Was it because he posted at such a prolific pace when he started his blog? The stuff he posted in the early days was much better. I found myself reading that. I skim over most of his newer material.
There are only so many posts you can write about Keep on the Borderland. After a while, it feels overexplored, so you either find an interesting new take on old school (which people have done), or you start writing posts like "The ads of Dragon, part VIII" or "Ares Magazine, Issue 12". That's when you should start doing something else.
Quote from: Justin AlexanderAs a backer, this would be my take-away: They've been feeding us material and I've been generally satisfied with the experience. OTOH, this was never something I had a real burning passion for. Maybe if I had felt the burning pang of "I want it right now!" I might have less patience.
This is where I'm at. I enjoy reading about other peoples' homebrew adventures, and was curious how James would make a megadungeon. I have already gotten the picture from the backer updates, sort of. Then again, I spent $10. I might feel differently if I went for a $1000 reward tier (it amazes me when people drop that much cash on a Kickstarter).
Quote from: I run with scissors;582488Why am I being a dick? Because I dare to poke my finger in the eye of Jim the Scam and his Dwimmerfail?
All my points were never refuted, instead I was attacked for being a troll. A troll is someone who does not bring anything. So I choose to swear, fuck that.
In the end, Tavis never answered any of my questions. Jim is a scammer. He is a lazy creator, and the hypocrisy is ripe. Yeah he had family issues, but the m-fer had no problem summarizing Ares magazines and dicking around on his ponderous blog.
Whatever.
Lets go back to playground 101 and being critical about another person.
You want to get them to do something (or stop) that they should be doing.
Or you want to make the rest of the world what this person is doing (or not) so they have all the information.
Jim the Scam
Jim is a scammer
His is a lazy creator
the hypocrisy is ripe
In my opinion these type of statements do nothing to achieve any of the above goals. In fact they are counterproductive. Either they make the author and the people (like Tavis) so jaded that they quit or deliver a sub par. And/or people ignore your further statements regardless of their truth because they don't like reading missives by assholes.
Given that you repeatably posted like this, ignoring what been achieved to date, being inflexible about tavis' and James posts (both at Autarch and Kickstarter) along with assuming that you are a reasonably intelligent human being.
My most charitable conclusion is that this is a form of entertainment for you. This all public and the backers, including myself, are seeing the same things as you are, except you are the one being a dick about it.
Quote from: gattsuru;582587For garage-style development, though, a complete draft represents a pretty sizable amount of energy and manpower and costs, which an expert can reasonably estimate but not want to commit without certainty of sales or payment. While a lot of the 10,000 USD estimate probably would go to delayable matters, like art, playtesting, and infrastructure, under everything else it's still a nontrivial time investment for the base manuscript.
While all true, I would say it more important to have it nearly ready when it is a garage-style development. Time is the one thing that doesn't require the outlay of money. And time is typically in short supply at the garage level. So if you go into a kickstarter without a nearly completed project then you are betting that nothing else in your life will interfere with its completion. And just about every garage level kickstarter I been on has something come up. Most minor thank goodness.
For me that not a risk I am willing to take. If others want to, fine, but I am going have what I can done. For me this means the writing finished and edited along with the maps (because I draw my own maps). The kickstarter will fund everything else I can't do. I might miss some opportunities because of this conservative approach but since at my level much of the business is based on personal reputation, I am willing to be that conservative.
Quote from: estar;582721In my opinion these type of statements do nothing to achieve any of the above goals. In fact they are counterproductive. Either they make the author and the people (like Tavis) so jaded that they quit or deliver a sub par. And/or people ignore your further statements regardless of their truth because they don't like reading missives by assholes.
I'm not a backer of this project, but, I am a backer of a couple of other RPG projects where similar issues have occurred (the project creator failing to deliver and disappearing).
I've got to say, regardless of how dickish the complaints are, or how dickish you perceive them to be, it's completely asinine to attempt to transfer blame for delays and failures to update to the complainer because the responsible party gets his precious feelings hurt.
That's just pure bullshit.
These people don't have any right to be upset when people call them on their crap - they're the ones that created this issue by failing to live up to the expectations they placed upon themselves.
I'm not talking a delay - delays happen. I'm talking utter failure to communicate.
I can accept that your personal problems have caused a delay in the project. That's life. Shit happens, and sometimes, it's far more important to handle that before anything else.
The thing is, unless you've been incarcerated, taken hostage, or somehow find yourself physically prevented from typing a few words on a keyboard, you need to update people and let them know that you're still alive, and let them know what the status is.
If you don't, you're an asshole, and you deserve all the flack you get.
In a day and age when a few taps of the screen on your freakin' telephone can send such an update, there's absolutely no excuse for such poor treatment of your customers.
Quote from: kythri;582728If you don't, you're an asshole, and you deserve all the flack you get.
In a day and age when a few taps of the screen on your freakin' telephone can send such an update, there's absolutely no excuse for such poor treatment of your customers.
So you are saying that this justify
ANY level of rudeness and
ANY style of commentary? That in your judgment what Scissors wrote is justified by James and Autarch's behavior?
My judgment is that Scissors style of airing complaints was not justified by the circumstances. However what was happening with Dwimmermount did require some hard questions to be answered about when and how the project is to be completed. If you disagree so be it, it is after all a judgment call and the line is different for everybody.
One further thing.
My comment on goals is important because if you want a completed quality product berating the author is not the way to get that no matter how much in the right you are. Something I learned when trying to deal with various suppliers at my manufacturing company. Many times we were absolutely in the right about some support or sales issue. But sometimes it required a firm but light touch to get what we wanted out of them.
Afterwards however there were consequences. Nothing hurts more than a damaged reputation especially on the internet. It is going to be no different with Dwimmermount or any other Kickstarter.
Runs With Scissors has clearly written off his investment. 'Gentle words' for the person responsible are clearly not on his agenda and fair enough. As a backer I would be genuinely concerned that James will be cranking out any old shit just to fulfill his obligations (up to a year late).
People bought into a storied dungeon with a long history and extensive gaming. What they might now get, eventually, is half the dungeon cranked out like so much spaghetti with maybe 1 2hr session in google+ as the only interaction with real life gaming.
I missed this kickstarter and was kicking myself for the lost opportunity. I dodged a bullet there. The contrast between Dwimmermount and the Frog God people is stark.
Quote from: estar;582735So you are saying that this justify ANY level of rudeness and ANY style of commentary? That in your judgment what Scissors wrote is justified by James and Autarch's behavior?
No, that's not what I'm saying. One aspect of behavior doesn't justify another.
What I'm saying is that comments of the nature of "In fact they are counterproductive. Either they make the author and the people (like Tavis) so jaded that they quit or deliver a sub par." are nonsense.
You don't get to blame someone taking people's money and failing to deliver the product on a negative comment from someone who paid that person money for the product.
Quote from: estar;582735My judgment is that Scissors style of airing complaints was not justified by the circumstances. However what was happening with Dwimmermount did require some hard questions to be answered about when and how the project is to be completed. If you disagree so be it, it is after all a judgment call and the line is different for everybody.
Ultimately, I'm not commenting on the tone of the complaints.
I'm commenting on the reaction to those complaints. By your attempts to shift the blame for failure to deliver from the people who have been paid money to someone who paid those people money, you're essentially advocating giving someone a free pass to abscond with folks money as long as words on a screen were conveyed impolitely.
Quote from: estar;582735My comment on goals is important because if you want a completed quality product berating the author is not the way to get that no matter how much in the right you are. Something I learned when trying to deal with various suppliers at my manufacturing company. Many times we were absolutely in the right about some support or sales issue. But sometimes it required a firm but light touch to get what we wanted out of them.
Y'know, when you're being paid money to do something, you put up or shut up. Again, I'm not justifying anyone's comments here, but if you don't want the risk of people saying negative things about you, don't take their money. If you don't like people saying negative things about you after you took their money and failed to deliver, then either address their complaints or refund their money.
Quote from: estar;582735Afterwards however there were consequences. Nothing hurts more than a damaged reputation especially on the internet. It is going to be no different with Dwimmermount or any other Kickstarter.
I disagree wholeheartedly, and I doubt that very much. Internet fandom is quick to forget or forgive poor business/fraud, especially in the RPG field.
People are quick to defend their idols from criticism, and quick to throw more money at them after already being defrauded.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;582313...ASE needs more levels...
Yes it does. Almost done, waiting for art to finish and tidying up the manuscript. I am never giving a completion date again though, I thought this would be done in the spring. I am glad I don't have to worry about preorders or anything.
The geometric bit is spot on, smaller stuff is a lot easier to finish.
Quote from: Melan;582166Amateur publisher blows deadline, project hit with significant delays. Never heard of that one before.
I've back RPG kickstarters which didn't manifest a finished product for nearly a year after it was projected.
Patience is, indeed, a virtue.
QuoteAlso, one way to avoid that kind of thing is to start the Kickstarter with a completed or close to completed manuscript.
It may not always be that simple, the author may not wish - nor be able to afford - to spend the hundreds of hours of time investment on a product that they can never sell, and I can't blame them. If the kickstarter fails, they can redirect that effort into something more productive.
Quote from: kythri;582740Y'know, when you're being paid money to do something, you put up or shut up. Again, I'm not justifying anyone's comments here, but if you don't want the risk of people saying negative things about you, don't take their money. If you don't like people saying negative things about you after you took their money and failed to deliver, then either address their complaints or refund their money.
What I find frustrating about this is the idea that, 'Well, he's a gamer just like us, and stuff happens, so we need to cut him some slack.'
I don't for a moment pretend to understand gamers who are so quick to give publishers who don't deliver anything but excuses for missing deadlines a pass, particularly and especially
after taking customers' money.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582396Then i would agree that kickstarters should come to the table with at least a manuscript/draft complete.
Or you should approach a kickstarter understanding that you're funding the
creation of a project
like the website fucking tells you, and you're not pre-ordering a finished product from a store like alot of Entitled Nerds think they are.
If you're impatient and can't handle the idea that the product isn't created yet, you shouldn't back a kickstarter, you should wait for a standard pre-order from the publisher or whatever distributor they choose.
I do think creators need to do better at managing the expectations of their backers and making more realistic deadlines, but it's important for people to remember that Kickstarter is NOT pre-ordering, it's funding the project's creation, and that may very well include the content.
On further refelction, the only reason I'm not mad is because I've been getting the previews and, frankly, I'm not terribly excited about Dwimmermount anymore. mIt's OK, I guess, but nothing to write home about.
Also, worst case scenario, all I lose is $10.
I feel sorry for Tavis, who's a good guy who doesn't deserve this sort of flak. I sympathize with James Malizewski's troubles, but like others have pointed out, maybe it's time to cut back on the blog posting and get crackin' on Dwimmermount.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;582771I've back RPG kickstarters which didn't manifest a finished product for nearly a year after it was projected.
Patience is, indeed, a virtue.
It may not always be that simple, the author may not wish - nor be able to afford - to spend the hundreds of hours of time investment on a product that they can never sell, and I can't blame them. If the kickstarter fails, they can redirect that effort into something more productive.
I am patient and can afford to wait. Delays pop up .That isn't an issue. The only issue that I am concerned with is this: If the kickstarter money is being used for living expenses and the project is taking much longer than expected, where will the money to get the printing done actually come from?
Quote from: I run with scissors;582497How in the hell am I troll when I was actually, you know, connecting the dots? Because I fucking choose to swear and pepper my posts with curse worlds? Whatever.
It's not curse words, it's not what you're saying. It's more how you're saying it.
But hey, you're actually doing something positive with Dwimmerdust, which I've been watching, so there's that.
Quote from: I run with scissors;582488A troll is someone who does not bring anything. So I choose to swear, fuck that.
lolwhat? Swearing is what you contribute?
I'm laughing at the idea that James' blog posts are somehow taking time away from Dwimmermount.
Quote from: Planet Algol;582838I'm laughing at the idea that James' blog posts are somehow taking time away from Dwimmermount.
How so? They are a lot of work. They also took priority during the health problems.
Quote from: Planet Algol;582838I'm laughing at the idea that James' blog posts are somehow taking time away from Dwimmermount.
If one post takes a half-hour to prep, that's one half-hour less he's spending getting his project out on time.
It's all how you prioritize your time. He apparently thinks there's a strong demand for
Ares retrospectives.
I highly recommend this article for all backers of Kickstarters, and for anyone who is thinking about backing a project. Its an analysis of the success, failure and delay of projects - mostly focused on high tech stuff, but still a valuable analysis.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407379,00.asp
Quote from: I run with scissors;582491Another question that has not been answered: why no finished manuscript before taking money?
That's not uncommon, but did the Kickstarter page give the impression that the manuscript was finished or near completion?
Quote from: I run with scissors;582493I have no faith in James. He cannot finish anything he has started:
Were you aware of the issues with Fourth Millennium and Petty Gods before you backed Dwimmermount?
If so, why did you back his project?
Quote from: kythri;582728I'm not a backer of this project, but, I am a backer of a couple of other RPG projects where similar issues have occurred (the project creator failing to deliver and disappearing)
Kythri, it would be awesome for you to start a different thread discussing your experience with RPG kickstarters (good, bad & ugly). It would interesting for people to chip in their experiences too.
Quote from: kythri;582728In a day and age when a few taps of the screen on your freakin' telephone can send such an update, there's absolutely no excuse for such poor treatment of your customers.
I am consulting several legal cases right now (I'm career switching) and I am stunned by how few attorneys can get back to their own clients, let alone opposing counsel, in any timely fashion.
I have clients who regularly wait a week or more to get emails from their own attorneys and one case is now 7 weeks behind trying to get feedback from the respondent's lawyer.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;582782If the kickstarter money is being used for living expenses and the project is taking much longer than expected, where will the money to get the printing done actually come from?
This was a problem in the Renaissance too with the patronage model. Artists and poets aren't good investments. When you are depending on the Muse for inspiration, its quite possible for much time to slip by.
Creative endeavors rarely turn out well when forced to a business timetable. Some (not all) of Hollywood's costliest overruns and most delayed projects have turned into major successes and classic films.
Quote from: Fiasco;582737People bought into a storied dungeon with a long history and extensive gaming.
That sounds like a weird expectation, given that we know the dungeon is only three years old and has only seen a few dozen sessions of play at most.
I was little bit disappointed when I saw the "original key" the product was being based on was mostly filled with entries like "8 skeletons" and "1 gargoyle", but it wasn't particularly far off from what I was expecting based on Maliszewski's blog posts.
Quote from: Endless Flight;582845If one post takes a half-hour to prep, that's one half-hour less he's spending getting his project out on time.
I can't speak for James, but I know that -- as a writer -- the type of time I put into a blog post is really different from the time I put into prepping an adventure, writing advertising copy, or doing game design.
And I mean that qualitatively, not quantitatively: If I refrained from writing a blog post, that wouldn't mean I'd be working on my latest professional project. It would mean that I would be taking a break from that project in a different way.
Quote from: Planet Algol;582838I'm laughing at the idea that James' blog posts are somehow taking time away from Dwimmermount.
I think it's more the fact that the guy apparently has time to post on his blog about useless crap instead of taking a few seconds to communicate with the people he took money from.
The blog receives attention, his customers get ignored. That's just awesome.
Quote from: Fiasco;582737Runs With Scissors has clearly written off his investment. 'Gentle words' for the person responsible are clearly not on his agenda and fair enough. As a backer I would be genuinely concerned that James will be cranking out any old shit just to fulfill his obligations (up to a year late).
People bought into a storied dungeon with a long history and extensive gaming. What they might now get, eventually, is half the dungeon cranked out like so much spaghetti with maybe 1 2hr session in google+ as the only interaction with real life gaming.
I missed this kickstarter and was kicking myself for the lost opportunity. I dodged a bullet there. The contrast between Dwimmermount and the Frog God people is stark.
This guy is a year late? :O
Heck, compare this with Adamant Entertainment's vapor ware Warlords of the Apocalypse. I asked for a refund early and Gareth sent my money bck. Not sure how many other people got stuck for his one.
Quote from: Fiasco;582737I missed this kickstarter and was kicking myself for the lost opportunity. I dodged a bullet there. The contrast between Dwimmermount and the Frog God people is stark.
That's an interesting observation. Personally, my experience with Sleeping Tsar was so poor that it directly impacted my decision to not back any of Frog God's Kickstarter projects.
Quote from: Imaginos;582951Heck, compare this with Adamant Entertainment's vapor ware Warlords of the Apocalypse. I asked for a refund early and Gareth sent my money bck. Not sure how many other people got stuck for his one.
Wow, I missed that one, probably because I was more or less ignoring Pathfinder at the time. That's even worse than the pre-order / no-show for Icons Team Up.
Happily, of both the Dwimmermount and Far West kickstarters, I"m only in each for $10, and the Dwimmermount kickstarter at least provided me with *something*... and of the two, 'Far West' is the older. Basically - don't buy Adamant products unless it's on the freaking shelf. :)
Quote from: Justin Alexander;582954That's an interesting observation. Personally, my experience with Sleeping Tsar was so poor that it directly impacted my decision to not back any of Frog God's Kickstarter projects.
What happened there? I don't recall any issues with my pre-order...
Quote from: Spinachcat;582869Kythri, it would be awesome for you to start a different thread discussing your experience with RPG kickstarters (good, bad & ugly). It would interesting for people to chip in their experiences too.
Here you go. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=24072)
I never do kickstarters, that way I have no disappointments.
Quote from: Endless Flight;582845If one post takes a half-hour to prep, that's one half-hour less he's spending getting his project out on time.
It's a different sort of writing, though - writing isn't like a tap, you can't just turn it on and make the right words come out. Magazine summaries aren't really creative writing, like the Dwimmermount project would be.
Of course, it's Jeff that should be telling people this, because he's the one who asked for funding.
(For the record, I am not a Dwimmermount backer, and have no actual investment, fiscal, emotional or otherwise, at all in the project.)
Yeah, but didn't James have copious notes to refine the final product from? It's not like he's pulling the final draft from thin air. Hasn't Dwimmermount been in his brain for twenty years (not really sure when he started it)?
Most of us know the creative process is subject to inspiration, but refining a rough draft and doing retrospectives on Ares magazine aren't that far removed from each other.
If he's got any ADD type issues, he probably does his best work by writing, then breaking to do something on an unrelated issue, then going back to his writing, and repeat. The blog may just be the something on an unrelated issue.
Though, as people say, he should tell people that.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;582782I am patient and can afford to wait. Delays pop up .That isn't an issue. The only issue that I am concerned with is this: If the kickstarter money is being used for living expenses and the project is taking much longer than expected, where will the money to get the printing done actually come from?
What reason do you have to believe that the money is being used for living expenses in lieu of the printing costs?
Quote from: flyingcircus;582964I never do kickstarters, that way I have no disappointments.
I've done alot of kickstarters. I have no disappointments.
Even the most mired project I've ever seen, which ran into all sorts of problems and roadblocks and the creator misjudging how much money he'd need to manifest his promises still ended up coming through in the end. It just took a while.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582915This guy is a year late? :O
Hardly. The Kickstarter
closed (meaning work would begin at that time) in April of this year.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;582995Hardly. The Kickstarter closed (meaning work would begin at that time) in April of this year.
So it's only been 5 months and people are flipping their lids? Jeeze, welcome to the ADD entitlement culture. I remember the days when you could wait up to a year after an ad for a game appeared in Dragon.
Quote from: TristramEvans;582997So it's only been 5 months and people are flipping their lids? Jeeze, welcome to the ADD entitlement culture. I remember the days when you could wait up to a year after an ad for a game appeared in Dragon.
Did those ads specify a date of release, and then blow it?
According to Kickstarter, the release was supposed to be in August. Again, I think the issue is less the delay and more the lack of communication from the author.
Quote from: kythri;583000Did those ads specify a date of release, and then blow it?
I can't recall specifically, but I imagine so, though I think release dates were more like "coming in the summer of '85" and things like that.
QuoteAccording to Kickstarter, the release was supposed to be in August. Again, I think the issue is less the delay and more the lack of communication from the author.
Understandable, I suppose, considering teh authors have internet access, though I guess perhaps I've just become accustomed to independant projects running later than expected. I don't think many people going into it realize how much work it takes to create a finished project when you don't have a staff of creators working for you and you have to hold down a regular job. I guess I'm making excuses for the guy when I don't really know him and haven't followed the project beyond this thread, but I think some people are really too upset about the blog posts, as if they compare to the act of laying out, formatting and editting an actual book.
Quote from: kythri;583000Did those ads specify a date of release, and then blow it?
All the time. Many still do.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583003I can't recall specifically, but I imaguine so. I think release dates were more like "coming in the summer of '85" and things like that.
Which usually meant winter of 86
Quote from: kythri;583000According to Kickstarter, the release was supposed to be in August. Again, I think the issue is less the delay and more the lack of communication from the author.
didn't he just post an update on the 14th?
Quote from: Doctor Jest;582995Hardly. The Kickstarter closed (meaning work would begin at that time) in April of this year. (emphasis added - BV)
Uh, that's not what that means - that's how
you choose to interpret it.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;583009Uh, that's not what that means - that's how you choose to interpret it.
No, that's exactly what it means.
Since kickstarter is designed to find the creation of the project, as explicitly stated by kickstarter on the website, it's only reasonable to assume creation would begin when the creator receives the funds. It's simple plain logic.
Kickstarter funds creation of a project
Without funds, the project will not be created
Once the creator receives funds, they will create the project
Ergo, when the kickstarter ends is when creation begins.
Unless the creator tells you otherwise, like they say they have a finished manuscript in the kickstarter description, you should assume that the project hasn't started yet, because that's the whole point of kickstarter.
Again, kickstarter isnt a way to pre-order something, it's helping to fund its creation. You are a patron, not a customer. You are funding a project, not purchasing a product.
This is a common misunderstanding, one kickstarter itself has been trying to dispel, sometimes through some controversial rules it's recently implemented.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;583011It's simple plain logic.
Bullshit.
The guy who created random storytelling dice had a finished prototype done to show when he started his Kickstarter - the kickstart was the funds to produce the dice in quantity.
You're talking about this like it's sort of law of nature, and that's absolutely untrue, as a simple perusal of the projects on Kickstarter shows.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;583012Bullshit.
The guy who created random storytelling dice had a finished prototype done to show when he started his Kickstarter - the kickstart was the funds to produce the dice in quantity.
You're talking about this like it's sort of law of nature, and that's absolutely untrue, as a simple perusal of the projects on Kickstarter shows.
if you would read what I wrote more carefully, I clearly said that unless the creator tells you explicitly that they have part of the project completed, you should not assume that's the case,
Creators do need to explainly clearly what they are asking for money for and what the project's scope is. However, the expectation that a kickstarter will automatically begin with a finished product and is only seeking money for mass production is unfounded, unless that's explicitly stated as the case. In that case, the scope of the project is different. You wouldn't expect work on mass production to begin before they had the money, would you?
Find where on the kickstarter FAQ it says that kickstarters will always involve a finished product?
I am a backer of the Doublefine Adventure game, which they only started development on once the kickstarter reached its funding goal. They're still writing the game, even though the kickstarter ended moths ago. Are you saying they should have paid a bunch of programmers to write the code before they had the money to pay them? It's absurd. No one expected a finished product right away.
It's just Entitlement that makes people feel they can demand something immediately and if there are delays in the production of a project then it's "a scam" or some nonsense.
Understand what the fuck a kickstarter is before climbing on a high horse.
Quote from: Endless Flight;582975Yeah, but didn't James have copious notes to refine the final product from? It's not like he's pulling the final draft from thin air. Hasn't Dwimmermount been in his brain for twenty years (not really sure when he started it)?
To answer those, in order: No and no.
Dwimmermount was created in 2009. His notes consist of things like "3. mm scroll" and "8. Graffiti - Seek not the gods!".
Nor, it should be noted, were these things secret. I was a little surprised by just
how minimal the key was; but James has talked about super-minimal dungeon keys on Grognardia repeatedly.
Quote from: kythri;583000According to Kickstarter, the release was supposed to be in August. Again, I think the issue is less the delay and more the lack of communication from the author.
June for the finished PDFs, actually. (August for the published books.)
Quote from: Doctor Jest;583011No, that's exactly what it means.
Since kickstarter is designed to find the creation of the project, as explicitly stated by kickstarter on the website, it's only reasonable to assume creation would begin when the creator receives the funds. It's simple plain logic.
More than logic: Anyone looking at the description of the Dwimmermount Kickstarter would have read, "As a backer, we'll strive to provide you with opportunities to experience Dwimmermount as a player. You'll get maps and legends you can use to run it for others. And you'll get each successive draft of the text, so you can watch how your experience of turning the written dungeon into a living realm of mystery and danger reflects James' reverse process of making his campaign notes into a form usable by others."
If, as a backer, you're receiving successive drafts and providing feedback throughout that process, the book clearly hasn't been written yet.
Quote from: kythri;582960What happened there? I don't recall any issues with my pre-order...
The project suffered significant delays and was at least 6 months late by the time it finished. Not the end of the universe, but enough that I didn't feel like ponying up large sums of cash for their next pre-orders. (At least in part because, IIRC, when those pre-orders were happening, I was still waiting for the overdue delivery of my last $125 pre-order. I might be more open to the idea of supporting a Frog God pre-order now.)
Quote from: Doctor Jest;583007didn't he just post an update on the 14th?
After how long? (and, only after the shitstorm touched down.)
Quote from: Doctor Jest;582991What reason do you have to believe that the money is being used for living expenses in lieu of the printing costs?
[Dwimmermount update #24]
Delays in writing are something James has to take responsibility for, but since I was the primary author of the Kickstarter project page I bear the brunt of the responsibility for not clearly communicating that your backing would be used to support James' time in writing up the dungeon from his notes. If you thought that Dwimmermount was all but finished and just needed to be polished and published, the state of affairs I'm sketching in these updates is understandably upsetting and I can only apologize for my failure to give you the correct impression from the beginning.
[End quote]
This might have something to do with it.
There clearly was some over-hype going on. When you sell your dungeon as, paraphrasing, the 'legendary' Dwimmermount, the great OSR work, pinacle of what the 'movement' can produce, the thing 'everyone has been waiting for', this gives people peripherically reading the blog the impression that the dungeon has been run for a while and benefited from years of organic campaign building and great general acclaim over those years of existence. It just was not the case. It's not a cause per se, but it participates to some funders going "huh?" now, certainly.
Quote from: kythri;583040After how long? (and, only after the shitstorm touched down.)
5 days. And 9 days before that.
Starting August 10th, backers of the Kickstarter have been receiving roughly weekly updates regarding the status of the project. It is, in fact, the content of these weekly updates which drove I Run With Scissors into frothing, irrational madness.
Irrational because I Run With Scissors was convinced that the "internal schedule" in the August 31st update represented their original timeline when, in fact, it represented their new timeline for getting the project back on track. This was the entire basis for his anger: That the project now has deadlines which are later than the original deadline, which "proves" that they never intended to deliver on time.
So, no, these updates did not start arriving "only after the shitstorm touched down". Ironically, it was because Autarch made an effort to communicate indepth about what the problems were and how they were fixing them step-by-step that the Scissors created his nonsensical shitstorm.
Quote from: Benoist;583049There clearly was some over-hype going on. When you sell your dungeon as, paraphrasing, the 'legendary' Dwimmermount, the great OSR work, pinacle of what the 'movement' can produce, the thing 'everyone has been waiting for', this gives people peripherically reading the blog the impression that the dungeon has been run for a while and benefited from years of organic campaign building and great general acclaim over those years of existence. It just was not the case. It's not a cause per se, but it participates to some funders going "huh?" now, certainly.
That's kind of what I thought. It almost seemed to me that he had been running Dwimmermount, or it's progenitor, for years.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583037To answer those, in order: No and no.
Dwimmermount was created in 2009. His notes consist of things like "3. mm scroll" and "8. Graffiti - Seek not the gods!".
Nor, it should be noted, were these things secret. I was a little surprised by just how minimal the key was; but James has talked about super-minimal dungeon keys on Grognardia repeatedly.
As an aside, I talked about this on my blog.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2010/08/minimal-dungeons.html
I labeled the concept as the minimal dungeon.
The basic gist is that nobody who ran a dungeon of any size wrote everything out. Instead they wrote only a handful do special areas in detail and the rest were shorthand notes to jog one's memory as to what was in the area. That in reality that Arneson and Gygax ad-libbed much of the details in accordance with their style.
That the reason we see so little mega dungeons published is that it takes a ton of work to take what are menomic notes and write them up as tournament style dungeon.
I have a theory, i.e. I haven't tried to write this up, that if you DON'T use the tournament style and develop an alternative that you can present the mega dungeon in a compact form.
I do not know what the format is but I am sure it involves two things. First the writing would TEACH you how to run the mega dungeon, and that it will involve teaching the referee how to ab-lib the locales for themselves.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583037Dwimmermount was created in 2009. His notes consist of things like "3. mm scroll" and "8. Graffiti - Seek not the gods!".
Nor, it should be noted, were these things secret. I was a little surprised by just how minimal the key was; but James has talked about super-minimal dungeon keys on Grognardia repeatedly.
Most of the dungeons I created in the 1970s were keyed much like that. A few key rooms on each level were a bit more detailed, but not many. I'm using one of those dungeons in my Microlite74 Wilderlands campaign now. I understand people want more if they are going to pay for it, but I really don't want as much detail as many published adventures seem to provide.
Quote from: RandallS;583120Most of the dungeons I created in the 1970s were keyed much like that. A few key rooms on each level were a bit more detailed, but not many. I'm using one of those dungeons in my Microlite74 Wilderlands campaign now. I understand people want more if they are going to pay for it, but I really don't want as much detail as many published adventures seem to provide.
I much prefer the lightly detailed dungeons to the complexly plotted adventure path. Random ideas while walking home combined with player's plans and paranoia will fill in all the rest. And I don't have to worry about some ad-lib idea "breaking" the module 5 sessions from now.
Quote from: RandallS;583120Most of the dungeons I created in the 1970s were keyed much like that. A few key rooms on each level were a bit more detailed, but not many...I understand people want more if they are going to pay for it, but I really don't want as much detail as many published adventures seem to provide.
This is the way I key dungeons, too. I assign most encounter areas a number with a very brief description of the monster/treasure/feature. When an encounter area is more important or requires more detail, I assign it a letter, instead. So I have a small "letter key" of major/special areas and a large "number key" where each entry is little more than some jotted notes.
As the dungeon sees more play, I sometimes add more detail to the original key (so the frequently-used upper levels tend to have more detail than the less-frequently visited lower levels, for example). The notes and detail are almost always things that come about through player questions or observations or comments.
I'm not interested in purchasing any published megadungeons, at this point. If it's a minimal key megadungeon, I'd rather make my own. And if it's a "descriptive key" megadungeon, I'd probably find that it's too much trouble to read and absorb it. I almost *always* end up modifying published adventures to suit my tastes and preferences, so the prospect of reading/grokking/altering a published megadungeon with a descriptive key seems like too much work.
Besides, I think megadungeons are at their coolest when they evolve through actual play, with the players and the DM in a kind of creativity feedback loop. To me, actual ongoing play is part of the megadungeon creation process, and not something I'd want to give up.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;583015I am a backer of the Doublefine Adventure game, which they only started development on once the kickstarter reached its funding goal. They're still writing the game, even though the kickstarter ended moths ago. Are you saying they should have paid a bunch of programmers to write the code before they had the money to pay them? It's absurd. No one expected a finished product right away.
It's just Entitlement that makes people feel they can demand something immediately and if there are delays in the production of a project then it's "a scam" or some nonsense.
Understand what the fuck a kickstarter is before climbing on a high horse.
For an RPG supplement, there is no reason for the creative writing not to be written at the time of starting a kickstarter campaign.
Sure, RPG authors who want to be supported in the meantime will ask for that privilege, and fanboys - excuse me, big-hearted souls - can indulge them like that. But in no way is monetary support in this hobby a prerequisite to producing material.
Who paid you to write your last dozen homebrew adventures?
Someone needs art, or printing costs, great. That's a kickstarter I will support. But I am paying a lot closer attention to the fine print and phrasing on these now, and unless we're talking about an established entity like FGG/Necro, if there is question as to whether or not the tough work (writing) is done, I won't be backing it no matter how fantastic the barker's draft makes it sound.
Quote from: RandallS;583120Most of the dungeons I created in the 1970s were keyed much like that. A few key rooms on each level were a bit more detailed, but not many. I'm using one of those dungeons in my Microlite74 Wilderlands campaign now. I understand people want more if they are going to pay for it, but I really don't want as much detail as many published adventures seem to provide.
I'm also a fan of minimalist keys for my homebrew notes. As I talked about recently (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17442/roleplaying-games/hexcrawl-part-10-stocking-the-hexes), when you're writing something up for your own use you can trust your own voice to provide the logical and evocative details necessary to flesh things out.
Keys developed for private use should focus on essential details and awesome details.
The problem I have with a lot of these fetishized "old school minimalist" keys that the OSR has been producing in recent years is that they
don't focus on the essential and awesome details. Instead, they're just a litany of the banal and the obvious.
They also tend to focus on the ephemeral details and de-emphasize memorable and interesting geography. But for a megadungeon that's completely backwards (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/5/roleplaying-games/re-running-the-megadungeon), IMO.
Quote from: estar;583116I have a theory, i.e. I haven't tried to write this up, that if you DON'T use the tournament style and develop an alternative that you can present the mega dungeon in a compact form.
I've found that it is possible to keep a relatively streamlined key that communicates your vision and that other people can use to good effect by dividing content into discrete tools that are clearly segregated. (I'm planning to write this up at some greater length in the near future over on the Alexandrian.)
Which isn't to say that the GM's personal voice is phased out: Shakespeare's job isn't to provide the performance and the scenario writer's job shouldn't be to run the adventure for the GM.
But if I'm paying money for something, I want a more interesting vision than "8 skeletons". Partly because that kind of content is so trivial I don't even need to prep notes for it. Mostly because, when I buy a product, I
want the author's voice to be heard.
not that I am a backer, since Dwimmermount didn't appeal to me (I have my own megadungeon to create if I want and the vastly superior IMO Barrowmaze and soon Barrowmaze II), but there was an update by James M on G+:
I, more than anyone, am aware that Dwimmermount is behind its original overly optimistic schedule, but I think it's fair to say it'll see the light of day before 6e :)
Of course, he has reviewed another useless thing and did another blog post on Rival Adventuring Parties (which most DM's do something similar, and I know I do, so what a waste of time).
Quote from: EOTB;583141For an RPG supplement, there is no reason for the creative writing not to be written at the time of starting a kickstarter campaign.
Sure, RPG authors who want to be supported in the meantime will ask for that privilege, and fanboys - excuse me, big-hearted souls - can indulge them like that. But in no way is monetary support in this hobby a prerequisite to producing material.
Who paid you to write your last dozen homebrew adventures?
Someone needs art, or printing costs, great. That's a kickstarter I will support. But I am paying a lot closer attention to the fine print and phrasing on these now, and unless we're talking about an established entity like FGG/Necro, if there is question as to whether or not the tough work (writing) is done, I won't be backing it no matter how fantastic the barker's draft makes it sound.
Welcome to the RPG Site, EOTB. :)
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583140I'm not interested in purchasing any published megadungeons, at this point. If it's a minimal key megadungeon, I'd rather make my own. And if it's a "descriptive key" megadungeon, I'd probably find that it's too much trouble to read and absorb it. I almost *always* end up modifying published adventures to suit my tastes and preferences, so the prospect of reading/grokking/altering a published megadungeon with a descriptive key seems like too much work.
As far as the State of the Art right now is, I agree with you. However I don't think what we have now for writing mega-dungeons (or any dungeon for that matter) has exhausted every approach.
It think it possible for one referee to teach another how to run X. We know this happened before with Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax for the Greyhawk Campaign. Note I am not saying they did anything formal.
We also know that whatever a person can teach that it can be written so another who not physically present can learn.
Hence we just haven't stumbled on an effective way of writing up a large scale dungeon in such a way to teach somebody how to run it like the original referee.
I think it is worth pursuing because of the continuing interest that other referee have in other dungeons people have run notably Greyhawk and Blackmoor.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583140Besides, I think megadungeons are at their coolest when they evolve through actual play, with the players and the DM in a kind of creativity feedback loop. To me, actual ongoing play is part of the megadungeon creation process, and not something I'd want to give up.
I agree and somehow a new format will have to enable that.
It may wind up something more like Vornheim which is more about how to run Vornheim than a travelogue of Vornheim.
I think a product that explains how to create and run a megadungeon would be more valuable than a standard published map/key/description.
Quote from: KenHR;582804It's not curse words, it's not what you're saying. It's more how you're saying it.
But hey, you're actually doing something positive with Dwimmerdust, which I've been watching, so there's that.
I will admit that my cursing might be a turn off, but to be honest if someone cannot handle it, then that's on them. Life is too short to be indirect. I choose to be direct.
As for Dwimmerdust, I am amazed with how many people either hate it or love it.
IRWS
Quote from: estar;582721Lets go back to playground 101 and being critical about another person.
You want to get them to do something (or stop) that they should be doing.
Or you want to make the rest of the world what this person is doing (or not) so they have all the information.
Jim the Scam
Jim is a scammer
His is a lazy creator
the hypocrisy is ripe
Tomatoe, watermelon.
QuoteIn my opinion these type of statements do nothing to achieve any of the above goals. In fact they are counterproductive. Either they make the author and the people (like Tavis) so jaded that they quit or deliver a sub par. And/or people ignore your further statements regardless of their truth because they don't like reading missives by assholes.
So what. This is my posting style, this is what I choose to do. You don't like it, so what. I refuse to be labeled a troll, because for me a troll only yells and offers nothing.
QuoteGiven that you repeatably posted like this, ignoring what been achieved to date, being inflexible about tavis' and James posts (both at Autarch and Kickstarter) along with assuming that you are a reasonably intelligent human being.
Ok, I'll play. All updates, up until I started bitching were private. Here is the timeline:
Bully for you. We only started getting weekly updates once a stink was raised. Look at the timeline:
Update 1 -- 3/3/2012
Update 2 -- 3/3/2012
Update 3 -- 3/5/2012
Update 4 -- 3/7/2012
Update 5 -- 3/21/2012
Update 6 -- 3/21/2012
Update 7 -- 4/7/2012
Update 8 -- 4/8/2012
Update 9 -- 4/11/2012
Update 10 -- 4/13/2012
Update 11 -- 4/14/2012
Update 12 -- 4/14/2012
Update 13 -- 4/14/2012
Update 14 -- 4/17/2012
Update 15 -- 4/27/2012
Update 16 -- 5/5/2012
Update 17 -- 6/4/2012
Update 18 -- 6/24/2012
Update 19 -- 7/6/2012
Update 20 -- 8/10/2012
Update 21 -- 8/17/2012
Update 22 -- 8/24/2012
Update 23 -- 8/31/2012
When did we learn that this project was up a creek? Around 8/21. We actually started learning anything, 9/9.
Here's the thing, this was fucked from the start, and the fact that the Kickstarter announced PDF in June and Book in August, one can assume that this was further along then we thought.
It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out. In addition, all of this was kept private, which is equally a joke. Mind you, Jim has no problem posting on his blog, but never once during that time could he clue people in on what is going on?
Whatever, you have decided I'm the bad guy.
IRWS
Quote from: Fiasco;582737Runs With Scissors has clearly written off his investment. 'Gentle words' for the person responsible are clearly not on his agenda and fair enough. As a backer I would be genuinely concerned that James will be cranking out any old shit just to fulfill his obligations (up to a year late).
This is the thing, gamers are willing to take it up the ass, and not realize that this project is going to be just that. Jim churning out shit to fill it up.
IRWS
Quote from: Planet Algol;582838I'm laughing at the idea that James' blog posts are somehow taking time away from Dwimmermount.
He can blog as much as he wants. The issue is that no where during his tedious summations of Ares does he mention Dwimmermount is off the rails. It is only when a stick has been raised that Tavis said anything. Jim has yet, in any open way say anything. A backer update is one thing, but this is the m-fer who begs for free games publicly. He cannot mention that he might be running late?
IRWS
Quote from: Spinachcat;582869Were you aware of the issues with Fourth Millennium and Petty Gods before you backed Dwimmermount?
If so, why did you back his project?
Becasue it was not Jim doing this, but a company. I assumed (and yes I guess I am a ass) that since Autarch was running the show, they knew the status and would get it out on time.
I mean, hell the kickstarter makes it clear: "Dwimmermount: An Old School Fantasy RPG Megadungeon by Autarch"
"Project by Autarch"
Company logo. Link to company website.
Then you learn this:
Quoteand second by the fact that our contract with Grognardia Games had us manage the Kickstarter process and then turn over all of the funds collected and the responsibility for fulfilling the backer rewards. The project management role I'm doing now is unpaid and unplanned. That said, even if James has at times overestimated how quickly he will be able to fulfill his promises, I don't doubt he is committed to doing so. The continuing progress on level drafts is, for me, evidence enough that he's still working to deliver the dungeon as originally projected.
Source: http://www.autarch.co/comment/8743#comment-8743
I will give Jim the Scam credit. He found a willing patsy for his exist strategy. He takes the money. Autarch takes the blame.
IRWS
Quote from: Endless Flight;582975Yeah, but didn't James have copious notes to refine the final product from? It's not like he's pulling the final draft from thin air. Hasn't Dwimmermount been in his brain for twenty years (not really sure when he started it)?
Most of us know the creative process is subject to inspiration, but refining a rough draft and doing retrospectives on Ares magazine aren't that far removed from each other.
Ding. We have a winner.
IRWS
Quote from: Exploderwizard;583047[Dwimmermount update #24]
Delays in writing are something James has to take responsibility for, but since I was the primary author of the Kickstarter project page I bear the brunt of the responsibility for not clearly communicating that your backing would be used to support James' time in writing up the dungeon from his notes. If you thought that Dwimmermount was all but finished and just needed to be polished and published, the state of affairs I'm sketching in these updates is understandably upsetting and I can only apologize for my failure to give you the correct impression from the beginning.
[End quote]
This might have something to do with it.
Yes. And even more importantly, when the fuck were they planning on delivering:
Quote...we need your feedback to make the finished product as responsive to your needs as a gamer as it possibly can be. As a backer, we'll strive to provide you with opportunities to experience Dwimmermount as a player. You'll get maps and legends you can use to run it for others. And you'll get each successive draft of the text, so you can watch how your experience of turning the written dungeon into a living realm of mystery and danger reflects James' reverse process of making his campaign notes into a form usable by others.
Source: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount?ref=live
Even more, the fucking PDF was supposedly going to be set in stone by June anyway, so June is not the time when you should say: Time to create the experience.
IRWS
Quote from: Justin Alexander;5830505 days. And 9 days before that.
Starting August 10th, backers of the Kickstarter have been receiving roughly weekly updates regarding the status of the project. It is, in fact, the content of these weekly updates which drove I Run With Scissors into frothing, irrational madness.
Irrational because I Run With Scissors was convinced that the "internal schedule" in the August 31st update represented their original timeline when, in fact, it represented their new timeline for getting the project back on track. This was the entire basis for his anger: That the project now has deadlines which are later than the original deadline, which "proves" that they never intended to deliver on time.
So, no, these updates did not start arriving "only after the shitstorm touched down". Ironically, it was because Autarch made an effort to communicate indepth about what the problems were and how they were fixing them step-by-step that the Scissors created his nonsensical shitstorm.
Wrong.
There are two simple questions:
1. Did they preform any form of due diligence before entering into a contract with anyone?
2. Did they at least see a manuscript before you agreed to the terms?
This is basic business practice. There is no fucking room for sunshine and lollipops and good old fashion blind faith. Divorce Jim from this. If it was any one who came to them with the proposition of running a Kickstarter for them, would they not make sure to protect themselves? For fuck sake, any contract, any business entering into one, has to preform some basic form of due diligence to make sure they are not walking into something like this.
They could have, and still believe, that Jim will fulfill his end of the margin -- no matter how one sided it is -- but they owe it to themselves to make sure you have some protection. For me, if I was going to do this, I would at least like to know if a manuscript is almost done.
They, and their defenders, like to state, ad nauseam that this was all about about cooperative development and that I am reading this wrong. Look at the mother fucking timeline:
Launched: Mar 2, 2012
Update 1 — 3/3/2012
Update 2 — 3/3/2012
Update 3 — 3/5/2012
Update 4 — 3/7/2012
Update 5 — 3/21/2012
Update 6 — 3/21/2012
Update 7 — 4/7/2012
Update 8 — 4/8/2012
Update 9 — 4/11/2012
Update 10 — 4/13/2012
Update 11 — 4/14/2012
Update 12 — 4/14/2012
Update 13 — 4/14/2012
Funding ended: Apr 14, 2012
Update 14 — 4/17/2012
Update 15 — 4/27/2012
Update 16 — 5/5/2012
I am assuming sometime between 5/2 and 5/5 they paid Jim the Scam for the fucking.
Update 17 — 6/4/2012
The whore skipped their call:
Update 18 — 6/24/2012
The whore changed his number:
Update 19 — 7/6/2012
The whore took the money and ran.
They start realizing they have been had:
Update 20 — 8/10/2012
They beging trying to save face:
Update 21 — 8/17/2012
They're fucked:
Update 22 — 8/24/2012
Update 23 — 8/31/2012
Why nothing but the sound of silencer for those all important first fucking SIX WEEKS after the damn thing is closed?
Shouldn't that have been the busy window when, the fucking the backers are being shown this "legendary" *snicker* dungeon firm up from whatever notes Jim did not give to his former player in another town, somewhere, somewhen, or sometime?
Plus mind you, if the PDF was due out in June, how was this going to happen?
Still I am reading this all wrong and I am the asshole.
Whatever.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583224I will admit that my cursing might be a turn off, but to be honest if someone cannot handle it, then that's on them. Life is too short to be indirect. I choose to be direct.
IRWS
Newsflash. Your use of swearing and other choice of words (whore) doesn't make you direct. It makes you come off as an immature child with a very limited vocabulary. I don't have a dog in this race, and don't know you or this Dwimmermount thing. Oh, I spent several years in the military, so swearing doesn't exactly offend me, so don't think that's the reason why I'm bringing this up.
But seriously, you're not coming off as edgy. So grow up and have grown up conversations if you want anyone to take you seriously.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583248Newsflash. Your use of swearing and other choice of words (whore) doesn't make you direct. It makes you come off as an immature child with a very limited vocabulary. I don't have a dog in this race, and don't know you or this Dwimmermount thing. Oh, I spent several years in the military, so swearing doesn't exactly offend me, so don't think that's the reason why I'm bringing this up.
But seriously, you're not coming off as edgy. So grow up and have grown up conversations if you want anyone to take you seriously.
*Yawn*
Track my language usage, and you would notice that it has been toned down. Still, whatever, I am what I am, and I will post the way I want too. Do I care what others think? H e double hockeysticks no. Good gosh if language makes someone not want to read what I want, holy socks, I don't think I could live.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583251Do I care what others think? H e double hockeysticks no.
IRWS
Apparently you do. Otherwise I can't see why you're so adamant about this whole thing. If you didn't care what people thought, why are you trying so hard to change their opinions or "alert" them of wrongdoing?
All I'm saying is that any point you may have had is lost because as an outsider, my impression of you is one of an immature child who uses potty words to sound tough. You very well could have a valid point and concern, but it's lost in the vitriol. I don't think I'm the only one with this impression either.
I have to ditto Sacrosanct. And, I really don't care either....:D
Quote from: I run with scissors;583224I will admit that my cursing might be a turn off, but to be honest if someone cannot handle it, then that's on them. Life is too short to be indirect. I choose to be direct.
As for Dwimmerdust, I am amazed with how many people either hate it or love it.
IRWS
You seem too dumb to get it. So I will increase the size of what was said, and try to not surround it with other stuff, so maybe it will get through to you:
It's
not curse words, it's
not what you're saying.
It's more how you're saying it.
I will say it a different way:
YOU SUCK AT COMMUNICATING IN A USEFUL TONE.
That's your issue, nobody else's. You're the one lacking in a basic skill level, not others. You're the one with a deficiency in doing something essential for the task you've chosen to undertake, not anybody else. It's not others with a problem understanding you, it's you with a problem communicating. You're the one who chose to try to communicate something, so you're the one that needs the skill and willingness to use that skill to communicate. They're just responding to your obvious flaws.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583224I will admit that my cursing might be a turn off, but to be honest if someone cannot handle it, then that's on them. Life is too short to be indirect. I choose to be direct.
As for Dwimmerdust, I am amazed with how many people either hate it or love it.
IRWS
Mistwell's already said it for me, but it's not your fucking language, get it? The reason I called you a troll is that your tactics are straight outta Trolling 101.
You've already posted elsewhere that you got your refund. Yet you still continue braying like you were the second coming of Ghost Whistler.
You keep making the same timeline post over and over. You dug up political and religious posts from James M's old blog (which was entertaining, don't get me wrong) to support your point. You dug up posts about procrastination from an old livejournal to make your point. You refuse to admit that you might have been wrong in any aspect or acknowledge those who are not 100% in step with you. Etc.
You've raised a very valid issue re: Autarch's failure to adhere to an advertised timeline and James' failure to own up to his inability to turn in a completed manuscript describing empty rooms. But the way in which you do it - language aside - is trollful. Thus, you are a troll.
Quote from: Mistwell;583270You seem too dumb to get it. So I will increase the size of what was said, and try to not surround it with other stuff, so maybe it will get through to you:
It's not curse words, it's not what you're saying. It's more how you're saying it.
I will say it a different way: YOU SUCK AT COMMUNICATING IN A USEFUL TONE.
That's your issue, nobody else's. You're the one lacking in a basic skill level, not others. You're the one with a deficiency in doing something essential for the task you've chosen to undertake, not anybody else. It's not others with a problem understanding you, it's you with a problem communicating. You're the one who chose to try to communicate something, so you're the one that needs the skill and willingness to use that skill to communicate. They're just responding to your obvious flaws.
My what a condescending ass you are.
Wait a minute let me make it even more patronizing sounding for you:
My what a condescending ass you are.I bet you feel better for telling this unskilled, unintelligent troll off. Bully for you. I also find it funny that you choose to attack me, when all my venom was pointed at the one who scammed others. Oh well.
Four
Under
Cover
Kites sailing in the
Yellow
Ocher
Unguents.
Is that any clearer for you?
IRWS
Quote from: KenHR;583279Mistwell's already said it for me, but it's not your fucking language, get it? The reason I called you a troll is that your tactics are straight outta Trolling 101.
You've already posted elsewhere that you got your refund. Yet you still continue braying like you were the second coming of Ghost Whistler.
You keep making the same timeline post over and over. You dug up political and religious posts from James M's old blog (which was entertaining, don't get me wrong) to support your point. You dug up posts about procrastination from an old livejournal to make your point. You refuse to admit that you might have been wrong in any aspect or acknowledge those who are not 100% in step with you. Etc.
You've raised a very valid issue re: Autarch's failure to adhere to an advertised timeline and James' failure to own up to his inability to turn in a completed manuscript describing empty rooms. But the way in which you do it - language aside - is trollful. Thus, you are a troll.
Ok, I see your point. Fair enough.
See I can be reasonable.
Oh thank you IRWS! Preach it. What happened to theRPGsite that the people bringing forth truth alongside obscenities are schooled by mods on their language? WHAT THE FUCK? Fuck yourselves and your double standards.
Remember this site is the site of THERPGPUNDIT?!?
The fucking rpgpundit. Blue Rose?
Anyway, IRWS, I sort of think I have seen your writing somewhere else. The dilligence of collecting links is what seperates you from theRPGPundit, and lets you maybe look a little more obsessed. But that is good is in this day and age. Because I told everyone 4 years ago about the Grand Douche in nice journalistic pieces. But then nobody understood who did not already understand. Now it is crystal clear, for everyone to see, the facts cannot be ignored. Although his list of participations is clearly not being adressed enough...
Apart from that:
Why anybody would defend the Grand Douche, the White Wolf fan and writer, who conveniently converted when OSR became fashionable...is beyond me.
Vacous someone said. Yes. Vacous. Pompous to begin with, but Grand Douche says as much.
And you other morons, who do not see that this is not about IRWS hurt feelings re: his money.
He propably signed up BECAUSE he expected things to go awry. But then, Jimmie "Ventrue" Mal could have delivered. But he did not. In a way, IRWS BET REAL money on the gut feeling that J M is a pompous fraudulent (intellectually dishonest of the proven 7th degree, if economically i.e. criminally fraudulent, we will see soon) piece of OSR tainting aggrandiosity!
And JM was not able to convince us otherwise
Quote from: Settembrini;583282Oh thank you IRWS! Preach it. What happened to theRPGsite that the people bringing forth truth alongside obscenities are schooled by mods on their language? WHAT THE FUCK? Fuck yourselves and your double standards.
Remember this site is the site of THERPGPUNDIT?!?
The fucking rpgpundit. Blue Rose?
Anyway, IRWS, I sort of think I have seen your writing somewhere else. The dilligence of collecting links is what seperates you from theRPGPundit, and lets you maybe look a little more obsessed. but that is good is in this day and age. Because I told everyone 4 years ago about the Garand Douche in nice journalistic pieces. But then nobody understood who did not already understand. Now it is crystal clear, for everyone to see, the facts cannot be ignored. Although his list of participations is clearly not being adressed enough...
Apart from that:
Why anybody would defend the Grand Douche, the White Wolf fan and writer, who conveniently converted when OSR became fashionable...is beyond me.
Vacous someone said. Yes. Vacous. Pompous to begin with, but Grand Douche says as much.
If using links to back up my assertions makes me obsessed so be it. For me, I used it as evidence as I built my case. It is also helpful to have things that highlight my points.
I've been posting this stuff first at http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com, because that was the place that felt appropriate to point this out. I was amazed with how little attention this got at other sites, but I kept it there. It was only when the goal posts were moved that I decided to go to http://www.autarch.co.
I'm here because it was finally mentioned here.
Are my feelings hurt due to the reactions I get? Heck no (happy no naughty swear words). In truth it has been instrumental in learning the psychology of most gamers. They rather live in a sunshine and lollipop lands rich on the scent of 1980's nostalgia, and pining away for the days when D&D could be found in any store.
As for the stockholm syndrome that seems to grab most gamers, that is what surprised me. Jim has taken the money, and has lied to his backers by not being open about the delays. He has stuck Autarch with a bad set of issues. Still, all blame rolls off of him, and on to others who choose to to speak up. If you choose to take a more confronting style, it is even more fascinating to see the reaction.
Oh well, I will remain the unintelligent poster, and Jim can still work his con.
IRWS
Quote from: Settembrini;583283And you other morons, who do not see that this is not about IRWS hurt feelings re: his money.
He propably signed up BECAUSE he expected things to go awry. But then, Jimmie "Ventrue" Mal could have delivered. But he did not. In a way, IRWS BET REAL money on the gut feeling that J M is a pompous fraudulent (intellectually dishonest of the proven 7th degree, if economically i.e. criminally fraudulent, we will see soon) piece of OSR tainting aggrandiosity!
And JM was not able to convince us otherwise
What a very astute observation you have. This is precisely what went on. I backed this because after seeing what has gone on with Petty Gods (hint, which is nothing), I figured what the hell, place the bet. For me, I figured this could one of three ways:
1. It would not get backed.
2. It would get backed and it would come out on time due to a company running the whole thing.
3. Jim would flame out.
I did not suspect that:
Quoteand second by the fact that our contract with Grognardia Games had us manage the Kickstarter process and then turn over all of the funds collected and the responsibility for fulfilling the backer rewards. The project management role I'm doing now is unpaid and unplanned. That said, even if James has at times overestimated how quickly he will be able to fulfill his promises, I don't doubt he is committed to doing so. The continuing progress on level drafts is, for me, evidence enough that he's still working to deliver the dungeon as originally projected.
Was the case.
In the end, I placed a bet. Are my feelings hurt? No.
Still in this hobby, it is easier to attack the messenger than read the message. Gamers are funny.
IRWS
Keep getting the truth out there. I laughed really hard at the Retrograde thing.
How are things with Indiegogo and the LoFTP things? I remembered some discussion here that sorta seemed to attack the poor Raggi quite strongly.
Quote from: Settembrini;583292Keep getting the truth out there. I laughed really hard at the Retrograde thing.
How are things with Indiegogo and the LoFTP things? I remembered some discussion here that sorta seemed to attack the poor Raggi quite strongly.
Thanks. I will admit one of the benefits of all this, has been Dwimmerdust and my Retro Retro parody. For me this is fun. It is also time that someone begins titling at the windmills that is the OSR'ers
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583286I've been posting this stuff first at http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com,
Wait, you're the YDIS guy? And you bought into James Malizewski's Dwimmermount Kickstarter?
Allow me to savour (with English spelling, like a proper douche) the irony of it.
Anyway, good job at YDIS. I'm generally unimpressed by nerds trying to look smarter than other nerds (see: Kent), but that's some funny stuff.
Quote from: The Butcher;583299Wait, you're the YDIS guy? And you bought into James Malizewski's Dwimmermount Kickstarter?
Allow me to savour (with English spelling, like a proper douche) the irony of it.
Anyway, good job at YDIS. I'm generally unimpressed by nerds trying to look smarter than other nerds (see: Kent), but that's some funny stuff.
No I am not the one behind YDIS, I am just a commentator their.
As I mentioned already, placed a bought in because I decided to put my money where my mouth is. I thought Jim was going to implode. The only way I could see it, was to pay to play. Why is this so hard to understand?
If he succeeded, I would get to see Dwimmermount and see what the fuss was about. If he failed, then I could have a seat for that.
I had the cash, and placed a beat. No big deal.
IRWS
Did the guy really change his phone number? LOL
Quote from: I run with scissors;583290What a very astute observation you have. This is precisely what went on. I backed this because after seeing what has gone on with Petty Gods (hint, which is nothing), I figured what the hell, place the bet. For me, I figured this could one of three ways:
1. It would not get backed.
2. It would get backed and it would come out on time due to a company running the whole thing.
3. Jim would flame out.
IRWS
Hah! A compliment online, whoda thunk. Now let me use my observational powers one more time:
From my secret masonic mind reading capabilities I gather...
The Grand Douche is
a) suffering from a depressive disorder that influences his working behaviour with a regular procrastination strategy as one outlet. the depressive disorder would clearly have a narcicisst (sp?) flavour, going back and forth between overstated self image and despair at those times when reality is seen in the mirror. Very common bourgeois illness. I would pity him, but the narcicisst bent makes it hard to feel sympathy. Also his wall of apropriate words...engrained bouge lying has become second nature to him. Hard to feel sympathy, but he probably is indeed ill.
or
b) he is a smart fuck who played everyone including tavis and the osr and now is playing Panzerblitz with strippers on Maui on fools gold.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583301No I am not the one behind YDIS, I am just a commentator their.
As I mentioned already, placed a bought in because I decided to put my money where my mouth is. I thought Jim was going to implode. The only way I could see it, was to pay to play. Why is this so hard to understand?
If he succeeded, I would get to see Dwimmermount and see what the fuss was about. If he failed, then I could have a seat for that.
I had the cash, and placed a beat. No big deal.
IRWS
Oh, OK. I was hoping you were the YDIS guy.
Whoever he is, though, he's
really bought into the anti-Malizewski thing.
Still, I don't see how you need to buy in to "have a seat". Other than the e-mails, those who didn't contribute are getting the same seats to the meltdown as everyone else.
Quote from: Settembrini;583317The Grand Douche
I hope you realize the irony in you, of all people, the most verbose and pretentious grumpy neckbeard ever, saddling someone with this title.
Quote from: Settembrini;583317a) suffering from a depressive disorder that influences his working behaviour with a regular procrastination strategy as one outlet. the depressive disorder would clearly have a narcicisst (sp?) flavour, going back and forth between overstated self image and despair at those times when reality is seen in the mirror. Very common bourgeois illness. I would pity him, but the narcicisst bent makes it hard to feel sympathy. Also his wall of apropriate words...engrained bouge lying has become second nature to him. Hard to feel sympathy, but he probably is indeed ill.
Internet psychiatric diagnoses. Really? There should be a law (like Godwin's) against this.
As a buyer, I'm not exactly thrilled about the situation either, but this is uninspired trollery at best, and outright offensive at worst. I'm sure you can do better with your big ol' vocabulary and your peculiar German sense of humor.
Quote from: Settembrini;583317b) he is a smart fuck who played everyone including tavis and the osr and now is playing Panzerblitz with strippers on Maui on fools gold.
This one made me chuckle, though. Good job.
Quote from: The Butcher;583346Oh, OK. I was hoping you were the YDIS guy.
Nah, I am much of a dick. :)
QuoteWhoever he is, though, he's really bought into the anti-Malizewski thing.
There is nothing to buy in, Jim is ripe for lampoon, and Jim is just the latest in a long line of OSR'ers who have over promised, and under delivered. Call it the sin of hubris.
QuoteStill, I don't see how you need to buy in to "have a seat". Other than the e-mails, those who didn't contribute are getting the same seats to the meltdown as everyone else.
Because as a backer you get access to all of it. It was only because I posted the backer only emails that this is out in the open.
IRWS
Quote from: Settembrini;583317Hah! A compliment online, whoda thunk. Now let me use my observational powers one more time:
From my secret masonic mind reading capabilities I gather...
The Grand Douche is
a) suffering from a depressive disorder that influences his working behaviour with a regular procrastination strategy as one outlet. the depressive disorder would clearly have a narcicisst (sp?) flavour, going back and forth between overstated self image and despair at those times when reality is seen in the mirror. Very common bourgeois illness. I would pity him, but the narcicisst bent makes it hard to feel sympathy. Also his wall of apropriate words...engrained bouge lying has become second nature to him. Hard to feel sympathy, but he probably is indeed ill.
or
b) he is a smart fuck who played everyone including tavis and the osr and now is playing Panzerblitz with strippers on Maui on fools gold.
To be honest I think it is a simple case of someone going in with his eyes wide shut and not realizing that as soon as he took the money, people were going to expect to get what they paid for. I will give you, family health issues is one thing, but to use that as a excuse and still churn out endless reams of naval gazing is another.
Petty Gods is one thing, and he got all of that stuff for free. It is another thing to have to produce Dwimmermount.
Still back in October he seemed to be nearing completion:
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/getting-there.html
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/goblinoids-of-dwimmermount.html
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/table-of-contents.html
I mean looking at that, one would be left with the impression that getting out the dungeon in the time frame promised would be easy.
Still all in all, I think "A" is closer to it.
IRWS
The honourable thing to do would be to refund all money, and restart the Kickstarter when the manuscript is complete.
Quote from: 1989;583358The honourable thing to do would be to refund all money, and restart the Kickstarter when the manuscript is complete.
You would think so, but as Tavis mentioned:
Quoteour contract with Grognardia Games had us manage the Kickstarter process and then turn over all of the funds collected and the responsibility for fulfilling the backer rewards. The project management role I'm doing now is unpaid and unplanned.
Kinda of hard to turn over money when Jim has it. He has proven to not be trust worthy in all of this.
IRWS
I mean, James should do the honourable thing and refund all the money.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583231When did we learn that this project was up a creek? Around 8/21. We actually started learning anything, 9/9.
At this point, I think we're forced to conclude that I Run With Scissors is a lying sack of shit. Here's the reality:
June 4th -- An update is posted explaining that the project is going to be delayed. This is the point where we know things are "up a creek", two and a half months before Scissors claims it happened.
July 6th -- Backers got an update on where James was at in the writing process. (Along with access to the current drafts.)
August 10th -- Tavis posts an update laying out a new plan of action, including new deadlines that they're aiming to hit.
According to Scissors, the only reason the August 10th post exists is because the shitstorm had been raised. But this is untrue: Scissors doesn't start raising the shitstorm on Autarch's forums until September 1st. Nothing is posted to Your Dungeon Is Suck until September 6th.
So unless I Poked My Brains Out With Scissors is accusing Tavis of having a
time machine, he's full of shit.
Now, admittedly, if Tavis actually does have a time machine then we would have to conclude that James
never finishes the manuscript. (Because if he had, Tavis could just go back to June and deliver it on time.) That would be a worrisome revelation.
But I think it more likely that Scissors is just a lying sack of shit and a troll.
Quote from: estar;583208It think it possible for one referee to teach another how to run X. We know this happened before with Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax for the Greyhawk Campaign. Note I am not saying they did anything formal.
We also know that whatever a person can teach that it can be written so another who not physically present can learn.
Hence we just haven't stumbled on an effective way of writing up a large scale dungeon in such a way to teach somebody how to run it like the original referee.
I have been saying this for years and am glad to see someone independently thinks the same way. Adventures and locales interesting enough to *buy* from another DM should be so original that it should be necessary for the writer to provide an essay on how he runs his campaign environment. Instead, unbelievable to me, almost everything I see published as delectation for the mind's eye is a lacklustre recombination of old hats as if placing the peas to the right of the chicken instead of the left created a new dish.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583388At this point, I think we're forced to conclude that I Run With Scissors is a lying sack of shit. Here's the reality:
[...] But this is untrue: Scissors doesn't start raising the shitstorm on Autarch's forums until September 1st. Nothing is posted to Your Dungeon Is Suck until September 6th.
Sorry to throw reality on your brave!righteous!outburst, but your own time machine needs recalibration. YDIS was buzzing about the botched timetable by August 24.
http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/keep-the-monolith-reviews-coming/
What is IRWS lying about again? Where did he attribute the August 10 update to the "shitstorm?" The August 10 update was *what set IRWS off*.
All this thread has done is show me one more vile place on the internet I didn't know existed before.
:(
Seriously, do people really get off on being so crude and negative all the time? It is like some sort of weird addiction?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583398All this thread has done is show me one more vile place on the internet I didn't know existed before.
:(
Seriously, do people really get off on being so crude and negative all the time? It is like some sort of weird addiction?
Is that you dodging Samovar's points?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583398All this thread has done is show me one more vile place on the internet I didn't know existed before.
:(
Seriously, do people really get off on being so crude and negative all the time? It is like some sort of weird addiction?
You think this is vile?
Sacrosanct I think "vile" is too strong a term for what JM is doing.
Quote from: Fiasco;583405Is that you dodging Samovar's points?
Since I'm not the one arguing with him, how am I dodging his points?
I'm simply stating that this thread has shown me yet another site I was previously unaware of that is nothing but anger, vitriol, and bonus points if you're crude and nasty. What's wrong with some people, to be like that all the freaking time?
No product on time --> James refunds the money already.
That's what a proper businessman does.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583388At this point, I think we're forced to conclude that I Run With Scissors is a lying sack of shit.
Oh really? Are you sure about this? Are you sure you want to continue down this path?
No.
Ok. Here we go.
QuoteHere's the reality:
Where is yours?
QuoteJune 4th -- An update is posted explaining that the project is going to be delayed. This is the point where we know things are "up a creek", two and a half months before Scissors claims it happened.
From Jim's only, at the time, mentioning of the project:
Quote from: Jim the ScamThings have more or less settled down now. Though all three of my family members are no longer in any immediate danger for their health, it's slowed the pace of my writing, as I said. This will also slow the final publication of Dwimmermount. I expect the PDF will be available in the fall, though it's still possible it may be sooner (I am a fast writer when not distracted by personal matters). The hardback books and other physical rewards should be in your hands by in the winter of 2012, due to the additional time required for printing and shipping.
Ok, very reasonable. I was not angry. Hell, I totally understand if you are dealing with family issues, that things might be changing.
QuoteJuly 6th -- Backers got an update on where James was at in the writing process. (Along with access to the current drafts.)
Well this is not quite being honest.
Let's shift this to Update #18 for a second. Which is dated June 26.
Quote from: Update #18James has provided us with a draft of level 3A, the House of Portals. It's available for download at the Autarch site if you're registered there as a Dwimmermount backer, or from the password-protected pages that were provided in previous backers-only updates.
Folks who pledged for backer rewards that included the Adventurer Conqueror King System core rules have been sent a link for downloading those in PDF. The ACKS Player's Companion is nearing completion; Autarch has sent the latest draft of its rules to backers who will be getting that as one of their bonus rewards. Goblinoid Games will also be sending PDFs of their Labyrinth Lord and Advanced Edition Companion rules for backers getting those rewards. Print copies of these rewards will be sent along with the Dwimmermount books. Email support@autarch.co if you didn't get a supplementary rule download that you pledged for.
In the backer reward survey, many backers let us know that they wanted rewards that weren't covered by their pledge amount. Because it's not possible to take money through Kickstarter after the campaign ends, these have to be handled as pre-orders or retail orders. They'll be handled in three different ways:
For Dwimmermount items - the dungeon itself (in PDF or print, and in ACKS or LL versions), the map booklet, the mega-dungeon tracker, and the wilderness mat - Grognardia Games will be handling the pre-orders. We expect that this will happen around the time that the layout is complete, so that the book's size and weight can be known exactly.
For Autarch items, you can order the Adventurer Conqueror King System rules and pre-order the Player's Companion expansion from Game Salute at this link.
For Goblinoid Games items, you can order the PDFs of the Labyrinth Lord core rules and the Advanced Edition Companion through DriveThruRPG via these links. Dan will provide more information about pre-ordering the special print edition closer to the time that it'd be shipping with Dwimmermount.
Now let's move to the July 6 update which is apprently the evidence that I am lying.
Quote from: Update #19We have two new drafts from James to share - levels 2B, the Reliquary, and 3B, the Reservoir. In fact we've had 'em for a little while now, but wanted to make sure we'd ironed out the problems with the download that were cropping up last time. All should now be good to go - but if you have any problems, don't hesitate to email support@autarch.co.
Since this is a backer-only update, I can get more into detail about the two ways you can choose from to download the new drafts:
1) Fill out the form at http://www.autarch.co/path-of-mavors/, using your Kickstarter handle and the password: Thuli4n. Within a few minutes, you'll be sent an email with download links for all the Dwimmermount drafts to date. Click the name of the level you want to download, or right-click and "save as" to put it in a specific location.
2) Visit the main download page at http://www.autarch.co/downloads. If you are logged into an Autarch account that has been set for Dwimmermount access, you'll see all the Dwimmermount files available for download. If you've just registered for an Autarch account, it can take up to a day or so for us to confirm that you are a Kickstarter backer - we have to do this step manually because KS is a closed system. When registering for an account, be sure to enter your Kickstarter username accurately, as this is what allows us to confirm that you should have access.
Here's hoping you're able to enjoy these two new levels without further ado! As always, comment or email if you need help.
Unless I am missing something, there is nothing there about where he is, or (and this is key) that the dates have shifted. From all apperances everything thing is still how it was a month ago.
Yup a month ago.
How much has changed within that month? How was the building a shared experience?
QuoteAugust 10th -- Tavis posts an update laying out a new plan of action, including new deadlines that they're aiming to hit.
Ok, you are not being honest. Your evidence -- as you so despertly want to cling too -- does not prove your point. In fact it still carries on the myth that everything is all systems go.
Quote from: Update #20Being a Kickstarter backer offers a variety of satisfactions. There's the excitement of taking part in the initial campaign and helping meet its funding target and bonus goals. There's watching a project take shape and knowing that together, your contributions made it possible. Finally, there's receiving the rewards that you pledged for.
As James discussed in update #17, the consequences of his father's illness have delayed this sequence. In that update we revised the expected date for delivery of Dwimmermount in PDF to the fall, which means the hardback books and other physical rewards are predicted to reach you in the winter after printing & shipping. We still plan to meet that estimate, but if you've been enjoying watching the project take shape you know the drafts of the dungeon levels aren't arriving at the rate James had hoped would lead to a complete draft by the end of July.
We're committed to fulfilling all the satisfactions of being a Kickstarter backer that I listed above, but there's one more I can offer in the meantime: a backstage pass from which you can get a perspective on what goes into creating a finished RPG project. Up to this point, we've been doing backer updates when there's new Dwimmermount content to share with you. Unfortunately, that means you're hearing from us least at the times when nothing visible is happening and you're likely to have the most questions about the project's progress.
In order to increase our transparency and accountability, I'm going to be posting backer updates each week from now until the last Dwimmermount reward ships. (If you're reading this update in your inbox and that sounds like more emails than you want to receive, just visit the Kickstarter site, choose "Me" from the upper right menu, then Edit Settings > Notifications. Unchecking the "Notify me by email when: Projects I'm backing post new updates" box will allow you to choose whether each individual project you've backed will email you updates; either way you can still access them through the project page).
In each week's update, I'll present the new interim project deadlines that James and I agreed on during our Wednesday phone call, and either share with you the progress that has been made on last week's deadlines, or take the time to discuss the holdup and put it in context from a backstage perspective. Here's what the goals are for this week:
Next week, 8/15: Post the complete scans of the original Dwimmermount dungeon notes (excepting the maps for levels 5 and below, which Tim Hartin is using for the cartography of those levels).
I prioritized this as the first deadline because sharing these was the first Kickstarter bonus goal, but also because it serves as a hedge against tragedy. We're fully committed to delivering Dwimmermount as originally promised; the phrase "over my dead body" comes to mind when contemplating the idea that this will join the list of Great RPG Projects That Never Were. However, if anything good can come out of something as sad as the unexpected crises with James' family's health, it's the reminder that we are all mortal. That Gygax died before he could finish Castle Zagyg and present his vision of the original Greyhawk dungeon is a tragedy that no one could prevent. That his original dungeon notes aren't available for other fans to use as the springboard for their own inspirations could have been avoided, and that's part of our intent here.
We're currently ahead of schedule on this goal. Last week's internal deadline was to have one new scan available for today's update, but James has provided two. You can download the entirety of the Level 2A and 2B notes at this link; the image above is a section I found particularly interesting because of the evidence of later revision. These scans will soon be available at the Autarch download area and the password-protected page, but that's a more involved process. Since the bonus goal will ultimately be to make these notes public through PlaGMaDA and the UT archive, I posted the PDFs of Level 2A and 2B for now at this non-secure Google site. We plan for all the original notes to be downloadable there next week.
Two weeks from now, 8/22: Have a draft of Level 4 available for backers to download.
During our last phone call James originally set an earlier planned delivery date for this draft. I argued for giving it more time because I think it's important to set expectations that can reasonably be met. In Update 17, James wrote that "I am a fast writer when not distracted by personal matters." Given his family health issues, it's understandable that this is not currently the case. Nevertheless, my feeling is that that confidence in the project has suffered because James's estimates of when things will be ready are still based on his previous movement rate, when he was happily less encumbered.
By the standards of a Kickstarter project that exceeds its funding target, or of the RPG field in which release dates are notoriously unreliable, the Dwimmermount delays are far from unusual. Nevertheless, any gap between an announced deadline and its actual delivery is relatively distressing whether or not it's remarkable in an absolute sense. We're working to set up interim deadlines to establish the rate at which progress can be made despite James' family tragedies so that we can better predict when we'll be able to fulfill our promises to you. Until then I'll be sharing progress towards these goals in future updates, with the hope that you'll appreciate the view from backstage.
See you next week (with replies to comments in the meantime),
I quote the whole thing so you cannot insinuate I am lying.
No where in this evidence has the goal post been move yet. Everything has been proceeding at a normal pace.
Quote from: According to Scissors, the only reason the August 10th post exists is because the shitstorm had been raised. But this is untrue: Scissors doesn't start raising the shitstorm on Autarch's forums until September 1st. Nothing is posted to Your Dungeon Is Suck until September 6th.
Ok bullshit.
Let me be very clear, bullshit.
The goal posts move on 8/17. In the comments to that update, one of the backers post:
QuoteRichard Barton on August 20
I have to say that I am more than a little bit alarmed by these updates. It appears to me that hardly any of Dwimmermount was written, nay, even *conceived*, before the Kickstarter went live. And that speaks to issues beyond the entirely reasonable problems with JM's family's health. The skeletal keys from JM's notes also do not inspire confidence that he will be able to produce a viable product in anything like the time frame suggested by Kickstarter. I have spoken to another subscriber and he used the words "Bait and Switch". I am starting to wonder if that isn't pretty accurate.
What? How can this be? I am a lying "sack of shit" according to you. I have no idea who this backer is, but here is the first backer who expressed something other than sunshine and lollipops. Mind you this is still a backer only update (more of this in a bit).
So what does hapless leader Tavis say?
QuoteRichard, I appreciate your concerns; thanks for the chance to address them. Kickstarter can be used to do a lot of different things. One of them is to take a manuscript that has already been written and fund just the steps that go into publishing it, like illustration, layout, and printing. At Autarch we haven't taken that approach with our in-house projects because we've found that doing design and development on a project after its Kickstarter launches allows it to be shaped by feedback and contributions from backers. Our experience with ACKS and the Player's Companion, and having been patrons on Open Design projects which pioneered this approach, suggested that supporters enjoy being involved in this process and that a product that isn't finalized before fans get involved winds up being better than it would have been without their input during formative stages. So we didn't require that James show us a complete draft when we started talking about helping him crowdfund Dwimmermount. Our confidence was based on the fleshed-out draft and polished cartography for the first level, James' track record as a RPG professional, and - most importantly - the session summaries from Grognardia showing that the dungeon had seen extensive use in actual play. Playtesting is one of the most time-intensive aspects of a RPG project, so much so that many if not most development efforts skip it altogether. As a fan and having been a freelancer I have no doubt that I'd rather see gaming products that originated at the table, coming alive in the minds of all involved and making a more vivid and player-focused impression in the designer's mind, rather than those that exist first and foremost as ready-to-print chunks of text.
When putting together the Kickstarter project page, I emphasized the opportunity to watch Dwimmermount take shape. I meant this to signal that the Kickstarter funds would be used to support James' time and effort in the ongoing work to convert notes and memory into a form usable by other gamemasters, not just the expenses of publication. From your comment I see that I should have been more explicit about this. It's a lesson learned for next time, and I regret that I can't do more than apologize for now.
I do think that a problem with the project from the start was an over-ambitious release date. We accepted James' assurance that he could turn notes into text at a rate that would meet that schedule, and under normal circumstances that might have been true. However project planning needs to take into account the possibility of the unexpected, and I wish we had allowed for more of a hedge against things going wrong. Here in addition to my apologies I can offer the guarantee that I'm actively working to establish and maintain a more realistic schedule for completion.
Good PR and this is where things started to come to light.
On August 24 I posted at YDIS the following:
QuoteI run with scissors PERMALINK
August 24, 2012 8:00 pm
Anyone paying attention to the Dwimmermount growing disgruntlement? Seems like Grogturd really is not doing any work. Grogturd uses “sick family” as an excuse so many times I think he’s out of family. Still what do you expect from someone who cannot even support the mind numbing Thousnd Suns?
Source: http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/keep-the-monolith-reviews-coming/#comment-3934 (http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/keep-the-monolith-reviews-coming/#comment-3934)
I posted this after getting back from vacation, and upon reading the 8/20 comment.
Now I am not as smart as you, so maybe my math is wrong. But 8/24 happens before 9/1 does it not?
QuoteSo unless I Poked My Brains Out With Scissors is accusing Tavis of having a time machine, he's full of shit.
Well I think I have shown who is full of shit here.
QuoteBut I think it more likely that Scissors is just a lying sack of shit and a troll.
Really? I love your evidence and the way your back your assinine arguments up.
Again, you are wrong. I was talking about this as of 8/24 at YDIS. I only took it to Autrich starting on 9/1 when the goal posts and the spins begun. In that time the goals posts have moved from a PDF in June 2012, and a book August 2012. To PDF in the "fall" (no time was given), and the book in Winter 2012 (no date given.
However, it has since be revealed:
QuoteEdward Hamilton on September 9
Does the statement "If editing, development, and layout on the earlier chapters can proceed in parallel with the drafting of the later ones, the PDF might still reach you in the fall of 2013. Let’s call this the optimistic projection" contain an error?
It sounds more like "fall of 2013" should be the pessimistic scenario, not the optimistic one, based on the explanation that follows. Hopefully that's a typo, and it should read "spring of 2013", or maybe "fall of 2012"!
To which the ever so transparent Tavis responded:
QuoteCreator Autarch on September 9
Thanks for all the comments. Sometimes your tour bus breaks down and the opening act cancels and your guitar is broken. It's then good to hear "hey your roadie is OD'ing in the bathroom" because you want to stay on top of what's going wrong; it's also good to be reminded that at the end of the day, playing rock & roll is what you wanted to do when you grew up.
@Joe, the post-weekly update rate of progress works out to 3,000 words per week. A projection based on that would be reasonable, and would predict that the manuscript would be done on 1/27/13, so that the PDF would arrive in the winter of 2013 and the books and physical rewards would arrive in the early spring.
@Edward, yes the optimistic projection is fall of 2013! Sorry about that.
Ok, so we have gone from June 2012 PDF delivery to now to Winter 2013. But wait a minute did not James have this almost done in October?
My Feeble Skills (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/my-feeble-skills.html)
Progress (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/progress.html)
Getting There (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/getting-there.html)
Table of Contents (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/table-of-contents.html)
The Goblinoids of Dwimmermount (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/goblinoids-of-dwimmermount.html)
Thinkin’ ‘bout Dwimmermount (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/thinkin-bout-dwimmermount.html)
The Clerics of Dwimmermount (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/clerics-of-dwimmermount.html)
So if all this is was nearly done in October 2011, why is it going to take close to two years to see anything?
Yes, you are right, I am full of shit.
IRWS
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583443Since I'm not the one arguing with him, how am I dodging his points?
I'm simply stating that this thread has shown me yet another site I was previously unaware of that is nothing but anger, vitriol, and bonus points if you're crude and nasty. What's wrong with some people, to be like that all the freaking time?
How hard is it to get around on that high horse of yours?
Seriously, even when I tone down the vitriol, you still have sand in your vagina. Why not address the real question, that Dwimmermount is all about one thing, giving Jim a payout, and nothing more.
IRWS
Quote from: 1989;583448No product on time --> James refunds the money already.
That's what a proper businessman does.
Sadly as has been proven time and time again, most in this hobby who think they are business men, are in actuality, play actors.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583453How hard is it to get around on that high horse of yours?
Seriously, even when I tone down the vitriol, you still have sand in your vagina. Why not address the real question, that Dwimmermount is all about one thing, giving Jim a payout, and nothing more.
IRWS
If you could get past your own issues, you'd be able to tell my last couple of comments were directed at the posting style at YDIS, not your last few posts here. And sorry kid, but doing nothing all day but expressing your vitriol because someone designed a
game differently than your personal preferences, and using words such as "cock, dick, cunt" as often as possible shows that a whole lot of folks there have some issues. You're talking about RPGs, not Nazis for Christ's sake.
That was my point, and it's no high horse. I don't know how many people have to keep telling you this before you get a clue.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583457If you could get past your own issues, you'd be able to tell my last couple of comments were directed at the posting style at YDIS, not your last few posts here. And sorry kid, but doing nothing all day but expressing your vitriol because someone designed a game differently than your personal preferences, and using words such as "cock, dick, cunt" as often as possible shows that a whole lot of folks there have some issues. You're talking about RPGs, not Nazis for Christ's sake.
That was my point, and it's no high horse. I don't know how many people have to keep telling you this before you get a clue.
I have never used the words "cock" "dick" or "cunt."
YDIS is a place that exists becasue it points out the hypocrisy of the OSR movement. How is what they do any different than Pundit calling everyone Swine? That's right that is ok because Swine are people who play "story games."
I can care less what people play. Really, I do not give a shit.
What I do not like is seeing people taken advantage off, and the dirty dealing of this hobby.
Case in point: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg)
Still you are free to think what you want. I am still amazed you would rather be angry at "vile" posters who point out the emperor wears no clothes, than scam artists who take your money, and bully publishers.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583461I have never used the words "cock" "dick" or "cunt."
YDIS is a place that exists becasue it points out the hypocrisy of the OSR movement. How is what they do any different than Pundit calling everyone Swine? That's right that is ok because Swine are people who play "story games."
IRWS
Because, as people keep pointing out to you, when pundit bitches about swine, he (or anyone who responds in those threads) doesn't feel the need to make every other post filled with shitfuck cockface suck dick cunt.
From the links provided, YDIS sounds like a bunch of 12 year olds who just discovered dirty words. The fact that you're bitching about a game and pundit bitching about a game is less important then
how you're bitching about a game.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this for you. Hell, Mistwell even used bolded and large size text.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583463Because, as people keep pointing out to you, when pundit bitches about swine, he (or anyone who responds in those threads) doesn't feel the need to make every other post filled with shitfuck cockface suck dick cunt.
From the links provided, YDIS sounds like a bunch of 12 year olds who just discovered dirty words. The fact that you're bitching about a game and pundit bitching about a game is less important then how you're bitching about a game.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this for you. Hell, Mistwell even used bolded and large size text.
Whatever. You are talking in circles, and you refuse to answer any questions. It's ok, you can ignore the bullies and scam artists.
I just find it funny that you'd rather complain about how I choose to complain, then address publishers who drive people off a board, and someone who has taken money and will never be held accountable.
As for making things clear for me, there is no need to. I understand what you are saying, I am just sadden that you and others of your ilk rather be angry at the messenger than the message.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583461I have never used the words "cock" "dick" or "cunt."
IRWS
ORLY?
Quote from: youI mean, for fuck sake, we should be only more than happy to fund these "creative" cut and paste scam artists circle jerk of dick measuring.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583466ORLY?
Ok, I was wrong. I did not realize I used the word dick.
Way to go, you really got me.
Asshat.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583465As for making things clear for me, there is no need to. I understand what you are saying, I am just sadden that you and others of your ilk rather be angry at the messenger than the message.
IRWS
:banghead:
Jesus, you just don't get it, do you? The
whole point of what me and Mistwell have been saying is that people in general will not focus on your message, no matter how valid it might be, when you're acting like a 12 year old who just discovered how to swear. This is totally on you and how you choose to behave, not on everyone else.
Wow.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583468:banghead:
Jesus, you just don't get it, do you? The whole point of what me and Mistwell have been saying is that people in general will not focus on your message, no matter how valid it might be, when you're acting like a 12 year old who just discovered how to swear. This is totally on you and how you choose to behave, not on everyone else.
Wow.
Hasn't the continued dialog about this issue (not the discussion about the discussion, but the actual subject of the project delays and communication) proven that you're wrong about that?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583468:banghead:
Jesus, you just don't get it, do you? The whole point of what me and Mistwell have been saying is that people in general will not focus on your message, no matter how valid it might be, when you're acting like a 12 year old who just discovered how to swear. This is totally on you and how you choose to behave, not on everyone else.
Wow.
Wow, I get it.
What I do not get is why you cannot answer any questions direct at you, or why you cannot discuss the issue at hand, instead of focusing on minutia of how one person chooses to post.
I mean, hell, even when I do not use naught words, and try to engage you in a real discussion, you still result in posting animated emoticons, and calling me names.
It is obvious, you would rather engage in this attack, and not answer real questions.
Its cool. A bit dishonest, but hey, I will not stop you.
IRWS
Quote from: kythri;583469Hasn't the continued dialog about this issue (not the discussion about the discussion, but the actual subject of the project delays and communication) proven that you're wrong about that?
Looking at the posts in this thread and how it started, I'd say that discussion happened
in spite of IRWS, not because of him.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583471Wow, I get it.
What I do not get is why you cannot answer any questions direct at you, or why you cannot discuss the issue at hand, instead of focusing on minutia of how one person chooses to post.
I mean, hell, even when I do not use naught words, and try to engage you in a real discussion, you still result in posting animated emoticons, and calling me names.
It is obvious, you would rather engage in this attack, and not answer real questions.
Its cool. A bit dishonest, but hey, I will not stop you.
IRWS
What questions? I already said I don't care about this Dwimmermount because I'm not involved. What questions do you want me to answer?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583472Looking at the posts in this thread and how it started, I'd say that discussion happened in spite of IRWS, not because of him.
I am done with talking to you. You are dishonest.
IRWS
:rolleyes:
"Y U no answer my questions?"
"What questions?"
"I'm done talking to you."
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583473What questions? I already said I don't care about this Dwimmermount because I'm not involved. What questions do you want me to answer?
Questions have been asked, and you still choose to focuse on me.
Ok:
1. What do you think about a publisher who bullies a person who gives them a bad review (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg))
2. Is Jim a scam artist?
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583476Questions have been asked, and you still choose to focuse on me.
Ok:
1. What do you think about a publisher who bullies a person who gives them a bad review (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg))
Any form of cyber harassment is pretty pathetic.
Quote2. Is Jim a scam artist?
IRWS
I don't care. I don't know him, and am not associated with him.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583468:banghead:
Jesus, you just don't get it, do you? The whole point of what me and Mistwell have been saying is that people in general will not focus on your message, no matter how valid it might be, when you're acting like a 12 year old who just discovered how to swear. This is totally on you and how you choose to behave, not on everyone else.
Wow.
I wouldn't say that's true. I've read the whole thing, and enjoyed his summaries, complete with dates/links.
Rather, he may have gotten MORE attention by posting in such a flamboyant manner. It shows how angry he is.
If he had posted in a pedestrian manner, I may not have bothered. Can't read everything on the internet. Gotta vie for attention.
Good on IRWS for bringing this to the attention of the community.
I had been reading James' blog, but had no idea that this scandal was underfoot.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583475:rolleyes:
"Y U no answer my questions?"
"What questions?"
"I'm done talking to you."
More like "Potty mouth bad."
"What about what my fucking points [edit: SAY] about the hobby?"
"Potty mouth bad."
YDIS has become as vain and egotistical as JMal and Zak S ever were. Satire, however foul, works when at its core there is honesty but ydis is a Liar. His nation of retards, his commenters, were always off kilter and off message which made the place funny because he would would make his point and a crowd of half-wits would arrive venting in a sort of pidgin cock-argot, never fully understanding what was going on.
I enjoyed mocking them until it felt like a game of whack-a-mole, humiliate one and a sock-puppet appears with full hit points. At some point though these lunatics, for whom thought, anger and faeces are the one concept, took over and ydis aligned himself with them for the FAME. So like I said he is no longer a satirist but an egotist and a Liar.
Quote from: _kent_;583504YDIS has become as vain and egotistical as JMal and Zak S ever were. Satire, however foul, works when at its core there is honesty but ydis is a Liar. His nation of retards, his commenters, were always off kilter and off message which made the place funny because he would would make his point and a crowd of half-wits would arrive venting in a sort of pidgin cock-argot, never fully understanding what was going on.
I enjoyed mocking them until it felt like a game of whack-a-mole, humiliate one and a sock-puppet appears with full hit points. At some point though these lunatics, for whom thought, anger and faeces are the one concept, took over and ydis aligned himself with them for the FAME. So like I said he is no longer a satirist but an egotist and a Liar.
You really are pissed no one reads your blog, aren't you?
Quote from: KenHR;583508You really are pissed no one reads your blog, aren't you?
:rotfl:
Quote from: Doctor Jest;583015if you would read what I wrote more carefully, I clearly said that unless the creator tells you explicitly that they have part of the project completed, you should not assume that's the case,
. . . wait for it . . .
Quote from: Benoist;583049There clearly was some over-hype going on. When you sell your dungeon as, paraphrasing, the 'legendary' Dwimmermount, the great OSR work, pinacle of what the 'movement' can produce, the thing 'everyone has been waiting for', this gives people peripherically reading the blog the impression that the dungeon has been run for a while and benefited from years of organic campaign building and great general acclaim over those years of existence. It just was not the case. It's not a cause per se, but it participates to some funders going "huh?" now, certainly.
Thank you for saving me the trouble of a reply.
Quote from: KenHR;583508You really are pissed no one reads your blog, aren't you?
My blog isn't particularly interesting so why would that piss me off?
Why did you delete it?
Quote from: 1989;583448No product on time --> James refunds the money already.
That's what a proper businessman does.
Kickstarter doesn't exist for "proper businessman". It's purpose is funding for amateur products.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583542Kickstarter doesn't exist for "proper businessman". It's purpose is funding for amateur products.
Or you could say, that's what a decent person does.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583398All this thread has done is show me one more vile place on the internet I didn't know existed before.
:(
Seriously, do people really get off on being so crude and negative all the time? It is like some sort of weird addiction?
Hyperbolic much? LOL.
Everyone's just excited about the site's new troll. BT hasn't been around much lately.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583549Hyperbolic much? LOL.
Everyone's just excited about the site's new troll. BT hasn't been around much lately.
That comment wasn't about IRWS directly, but at YDIS and the commentary there, with stuff like:
* edgy user is edgy for including the word "fag" in his username
* "This crippled snowflake Ed Dove is R4′s number one cocksucker, accusing everyone who doesn’t sing the magnificent praises of lying and logical errors. The kid’s obviously a petty faggot,..."
* "Yeah, Ed Dove’s lips are wrapped around Raggi’s limp and pimply cock pretty tight, and that bitch is definitely gonna swallow. "
* About a dozen references to masturbation.
It was like I was shown into a room full of very angry 12 year olds.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583556It was like I was shown into a room full of very angry 12 year olds.
Well, that accurately sums up every message board I've ever been to online.
Do you mean to say there are ones where people are nice, reasonable, pleasant and intelligent? I don't think I believe it!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583472Looking at the posts in this thread and how it started, I'd say that discussion happened in spite of IRWS, not because of him.
Maybe I need to go re-read the OP, but it seems that he's the one that spawned this discussion. Certainly, his posts on Autarch's forum are what drew attention of folks here, based on that OP.
Quote from: 1989;583478I wouldn't say that's true. I've read the whole thing, and enjoyed his summaries, complete with dates/links.
Rather, he may have gotten MORE attention by posting in such a flamboyant manner. It shows how angry he is.
If he had posted in a pedestrian manner, I may not have bothered. Can't read everything on the internet. Gotta vie for attention.
Good on IRWS for bringing this to the attention of the community.
Gotta agree.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm314/yvonne88888/church_lady.jpg)
Quote from: TristramEvans;583557Well, that accurately sums up every message board I've ever been to online.
Do you mean to say there are ones where people are nice, reasonable, pleasant and intelligent? I don't think I believe it!
Backyardchicken forums are full of nice people :)
http://grognardia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/thinkin-bout-dwimmermount.html
I guess there was fair warning; his "almost done" posts from 2011 were about his retro-clone house-rules also called Dwimmermount (and where pray tell are those?) while at that point a year ago he was just thinking about how to present things in the megadungeon.
QuoteMy model is Mike Carr's In Search of the Unknown -- all the rooms in the dungeon are described, but there's also a high degree of customizability, allowing each referee to place whatever monsters and treasures he wishes into many of the room.
And here's the golden way out. 20 rooms a level, and the rest, well, "you fill it in yourself" B1 style.
Quote from: Roger the GS;583567http://grognardia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/thinkin-bout-dwimmermount.html
I guess there was fair warning; his "almost done" posts from 2011 were about his retro-clone house-rules also called Dwimmermount (and where pray tell are those?) while at that point a year ago he was just thinking about how to present things in the megadungeon.
And here's the golden way out. 20 rooms a level, and the rest, well, "you fill it in yourself" B1 style.
Yup. I love that post. I linked to a bunch of them on my blog as well as here.
I'd love to ask him the status, but he has blocked me from commenting.
IRWS
Quote from: Roger the GS;583567http://grognardia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/thinkin-bout-dwimmermount.html
I guess there was fair warning; his "almost done" posts from 2011 were about his retro-clone house-rules also called Dwimmermount (and where pray tell are those?) while at that point a year ago he was just thinking about how to present things in the megadungeon.
And here's the golden way out. 20 rooms a level, and the rest, well, "you fill it in yourself" B1 style.
I'm not so sure his Grognardia post makes him look any better:
Quote from: GrognardiaI've also been giving a lot of thought to the publication of the Dwimmermount megadungeon. It's something I very much want to do and, judging from the comments and emails I get regularly, it's something a lot of people want to see. So, it's not so much a question of if or even when so much as how. I mean, the dungeon is done. I have all my notes and maps and other write-ups.
So, if the dungeon was done and it was turning his play copy into professional copy, why don't the backers have their original notes yet? If the point was to incorporate feedback, wouldn't that be more likely to happen if a thousand backers were running the megadungeon in his notebook form?
You don't need professional cartography to run a dungeon. And there shouldn't be creative issues if the write-up is finished, other than deciding how you want it all to look. But that's not the type of creativity issues I'm getting out of updates given by Tavis, along with the sporadic level releases.
This looks to me like he was not being honest, or else decided for a total rewrite (which again, partially invalidates the dungeon being "legendary"; perhaps the brand name of Dwimmermount was semi-legendary, but not the actual product). Or perhaps he attempted puffery to a semi-ethical level and then couldn't get out in front of himself.
But you don't put a 2-month deadline on a creative project being delivered (you have to be done to send the PDF) unless you want people to think you are at the finish line already.
I don't particularly care one way or not, either, as I didn't back it. But I think it is as close to a business case as the OSR will produce, that others can learn from, i.e. don't do it this way.
Quote from: samovar;583395Sorry to throw reality on your brave!righteous!outburst, but your own time machine needs recalibration. YDIS was buzzing about the botched timetable by August 24.
Which would still make him a liar.
Quote from: samovar;583395What is IRWS lying about again? Where did he attribute the August 10 update to the "shitstorm?"
In this thread. In the post I quoted. In the message you replied. Here is again:
Quote from: I run with scissors;583231It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out.
See?
Plus, even if we find some place where Scissors was bitching on 8/9 (although in the link you provide, we can see that he's not claiming that), it doesn't change the fact that this "came out" in an update all the way back in June. There's absolutely no way to interpret Scissors claim here as anything but a complete and utter falsehood.
Quote from: samovar;583395The August 10 update was *what set IRWS off*.
Yes. The fact that IRWS is simultaneously claiming that the post which set him off only exists because it set him off is what makes him a lying sack of shit.
Quote from: EOTB;583580So, if the dungeon was done and it was turning his play copy into professional copy, why don't the backers have their original notes yet? If the point was to incorporate feedback, wouldn't that be more likely to happen if a thousand backers were running the megadungeon in his notebook form?
You don't need professional cartography to run a dungeon. And there shouldn't be creative issues if the write-up is finished, other than deciding how you want it all to look. But that's not the type of creativity issues I'm getting out of updates given by Tavis, along with the sporadic level releases.
This looks to me like he was not being honest, or else decided for a total rewrite (which again, partially invalidates the dungeon being "legendary"; perhaps the brand name of Dwimmermount was semi-legendary, but not the actual product). Or perhaps he attempted puffery to a semi-ethical level and then couldn't get out in front of himself.
But you don't put a 2-month deadline on a creative project being delivered (you have to be done to send the PDF) unless you want people to think you are at the finish line already.
I don't particularly care one way or not, either, as I didn't back it. But I think it is as close to a business case as the OSR will produce, that others can learn from, i.e. don't do it this way.
Careful there you might be labeled as a troll, or worse a liar.
That is the thing with all of this, and this is what I still have not gotten an answer too yet. Did Tavis and company do any due diligence before entering into this one-sided deal? There is enough evidence out there, that points to the fact that Jim was either:
1. Nearly done
2. Close to done
3. Almost done
Going into this one would be left to assume that this was almost done, and all it needed was the cash to get the rest of the art, and print it.
Only after it seems that Jim gets the cash, he ten realized he had to produce something.
In the end this was either very elaborate con, Jim was looking for a cash out, or Tavis and company are bad business men.
IRWS
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583590Which would still make him a liar.
In this thread. In the post I quoted. In the message you replied. Here is again:
See?
Plus, even if we find some place where Scissors was bitching on 8/9 (although in the link you provide, we can see that he's not claiming that), it doesn't change the fact that this "came out" in an update all the way back in June. There's absolutely no way to interpret Scissors claim here as anything but a complete and utter falsehood.
Yes. The fact that IRWS is simultaneously claiming that the post which set him off only exists because it set him off is what makes him a lying sack of shit.
Man you are so full shit. I spelled it out for you, and you still refuse to admit you are wrong. Keep saving face. It's ok.
IRWS
BTW, you should watch your tone, less you be labeled as vile. Still, maybe attacking me, makes the hurting go away.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583231It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583452Richard Barton on August 20
What? How can this be? I am a lying "sack of shit" according to you. I have no idea who this backer is, but here is the first backer who expressed something other than sunshine and lollipops.
When you claim that a post that didn't exist until 8/20 was the reason something was posted on 8/10, you're a lying sack of shit. Thanks for confirming it in such a clear and concise fashion.
Quote from: EOTB;583580So, if the dungeon was done and it was turning his play copy into professional copy, why don't the backers have their original notes yet?
We do. We've had them for months.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583595We do. We've had them for months.
For all levels to be included in the final product?
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583594When you claim that a post that didn't exist until 8/20 was the reason something was posted on 8/10, you're a lying sack of shit. Thanks for confirming it in such a clear and concise fashion.
Thanks for proving my point. You are wrong and you are still trying to save face.
It is obvious you would rather attack the messenger, then realize that:
1. Jim is wrong.
2. The Kickstarter is a scam.
3. You suffer from game Stockholm syndrome.
But by all means, keep yelling at me, and calling me names. Keep being willfully ignorant, and mis reading and mis representing my posts.
I bet in any second you will have to respond to this posting with one of the following tactics:
1. Call me a lying sack of shit.
2. Call me a troll.
3. Tell me to fuck off.
4. Twist my words to prove some mythological point you think you might have.
It is obvious from reading your responses to me, you have neither taken the time to read my posts, or you choose to be a vile person who would rather toss insults.
And true, I have called Jim a scam artists. But I have not taken any money from anyone and not delivered on promises. I have not bluffed a company to take all the risks for my scam while I pocket the money. Heck, look at how clever Jim is, no where is Groganardia Games anywhere on the Kickstarter. Isn't that something that should be a red flag?
But it is ok, I am a lying sack of shit.
IRWS
You know, I can understand why people whose own backers have been so patient about "cascading failures" to deliver might be eager to circle the wagons.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583597But it is ok, I am a lying sack of shit.
You make a good point here. I think that's something we can all agree on at this point.
Quote from: Benoist;583596For all levels to be included in the final product?
You're right. I've only gotten the first four. My mistake.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583613You're right. I've only gotten the first four. My mistake.
So, was the hype justified, or was I right to be skeptical?
Quote from: Dan Vincze;583616So, was the hype justified, or was I right to be skeptical?
I talked about this a couple pages back: The original key is pretty much completely uninspiring. I've only skimmed the material developed from that key, but my initial impression is that this is a generic dungeon with a generic map filled with generic stuff.
Again, this is based entirely on a skim read of incomplete material. But it seems to lack the identity of the Caverns of Thracia or Rappan Athuk. It lacks the attitude and heft of the Temple of Elemental Evil.
And the individual encounter key simply lacks cleverness or interest. For example, I just randomly stopped on a page featuring: A room full of webs with two giant spiders in it. A room with an animated statue that will attack anyone entering the chamber. A room with four gargoyles sitting on pedestals who will attack anyone entering the chamber.
Earlier in this thread a few people championed the idea that you can key a room with "8 skeletons" and then provide all the necessary details during play. Which is true. But unless you actually do something clever with those 8 skeletons, anybody can do that. And they can do it from a random stocking table. Most of what I'm seeing in Dwimmermount is just James using multiple sentences to write the equivalent of "8 skeletons".
Quote from: I run with scissors;583286In truth it has been instrumental in learning the psychology of most gamers. They rather live in a sunshine and lollipop lands rich on the scent of 1980's nostalgia, and pining away for the days when D&D could be found in any store.
Sounds good to me!!
Quote from: 1989;583448No product on time --> James refunds the money already.
That's what a proper businessman does.
Except that Kickstarter has a contract that lays out the rights and responsibilities for the backers and the creators. There is nothing in their agreement about delivering on time, just that the creator is expected to do his best and keep his backers informed.
I am NOT defending Grogtardia. Its ironic and hysterical that Dwimmermount is a meltdown, but Kickstarter backers need to understand the risks involved in being a patron to an artist and how its different than making a pre-order at Amazon.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583461Case in point: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg)
Holy cock dick cunt Batman! I am shocked at Guild of Blades, but also that "female poster" (its the internet so who knows) sounds nuts too.
At the very least Jmal has been misleading with his statements of the completion of Dwimmermount leading into the Kickstarter and Tavis and co fell for it hook, line and sinker. I can't really blame them, they presumably thought Jmal was a honorable guy who actually had what he lead people to believe. You can bet your bottom dollar this is the last co-op between Autarch and Grognardia.
In terms of taking responsibility for the delays and communicating with irate backers James has been nothing short of cowardly, leaving Tavis to take all the heat. Censoring unpleasant questions from the Grogtardia blog is more than pathetic. Man up for Christ's sake!
It reminds me very strongly of the Rob Kuntz fiascos where poor Alan Grogh killed himself trying to force Kuntz to make some semblance of delivering on his promises (also after he had pocketed the money and the blamed non delivery on bad health).
Quote from: I run with scissors;583476]
1. What do you think about a publisher who bullies a person who gives them a bad review (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg))
That is pretty fucked up.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583611You make a good point here. I think that's something we can all agree on at this point.
So how's your attempt at fulfilling your promises for your crowd funding going?
Are your hands all clean?
IRWS
Quote from: Spinachcat;583635Sounds good to me!!
Except that Kickstarter has a contract that lays out the rights and responsibilities for the backers and the creators. There is nothing in their agreement about delivering on time, just that the creator is expected to do his best and keep his backers informed.
True, however, you can ask for a refund, and it has to be honored:
QuoteAre creators legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their projects?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
Source: http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco)
All you have to do is ask. In the case of Dwimmerfail, with the goal posts sliding as much as they have, and up until recently, lack of effective communications, backers can ask for a refund. We'll never know how many have asked for one, but I suspect it is more than we might know.
QuoteHoly cock dick cunt Batman! I am shocked at Guild of Blades, but also that "female poster" (its the internet so who knows) sounds nuts too.
Yup. Some gamers are just awesome aren't they?
IRWS
Quote from: Fiasco;583636At the very least Jmal has been misleading with his statements of the completion of Dwimmermount leading into the Kickstarter and Tavis and co fell for it hook, line and sinker. I can't really blame them, they presumably thought Jmal was a honorable guy who actually had what he lead people to believe. You can bet your bottom dollar this is the last co-op between Autarch and Grognardia.
In terms of taking responsibility for the delays and communicating with irate backers James has been nothing short of cowardly, leaving Tavis to take all the heat. Censoring unpleasant questions from the Grogtardia blog is more than pathetic. Man up for Christ's sake!
It reminds me very strongly of the Rob Kuntz fiascos where poor Alan Grogh killed himself trying to force Kuntz to make some semblance of delivering on his promises (also after he had pocketed the money and the blamed non delivery on bad health).
You are so right. The only reason Tavis is involved is because Jim has been a coward. It is so easy to pontificate about Ares magazine, but when the actual work needs to be done, and the fallout from your con is happening, it is much easier to tuck your tail between your legs.
I am not heartless, and I do feel for Tavis, but he was set up from the start. The fact that he drops this nugget as his proof Jim is trustworthy still makes me laugh:
Quote from: TavisI think that "one draft of a level every two weeks" is a plausible answer to "how in the hell is he going to do this", especially given the previous history of completed projects. Getting the money first and fulfilling the rewards later is the basic premise of Kickstarter, which means it has to function on trust. Maintaining that trust is very important to me and I do want to be more upfront in future,
Source: http://www.autarch.co/comment/8754#comment-8754 (http://www.autarch.co/comment/8754#comment-8754)
So the only due diligence he did was look up his list of credits on RPG.net. I will not bother to quote my response to this, but I will give you a summary:
1. Last published project as a freelance 2006
2. As for the Rogue Games releases, everyone who follows that company knows he had a hand in creating their rule set. Everyone knows Colonial Gothic is someone else's, and SS&S was worked on more by the other guy. Fuck, is it any wonder that he took his stupid Cursed Chateau and Thousand Suns with him to Grognarida Games? Why's that?
3. Fourth Millennium no show. At least the revised version Rogue Games was going to do. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?319002-Whatever-happend-to-Fourth-Millennium (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?319002-Whatever-happend-to-Fourth-Millennium))
4. No support of his one true love Thousand Suns, short of the revised rulebook and rereleasing Starships.
And the granddaddy of them all:
5. Petty Gods. This is the biggest scam. He has all the art and writing. He says as much on his blog. It has been two years, and still nothing. Why not? He has no problems begging for free game goods on his blog. Free art. Free writing. Why the not beg for some fucking free layout help?
6. All branding on the Kickstarter is Autarch (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount)). No mention of Grognardia Games, Grognadia Games' logo, or even Jim's name. This is the one thing that really cracks me up. Jim was able to get all the money, but shift all the risks on too Autarch.
So there you go.
Oh, and do you want to know the one thing that everyone is over looking?
Quote from: Tavis...and second by the fact that our contract with Grognardia Games had us manage the Kickstarter process and then turn over all of the funds collected and the responsibility for fulfilling the backer rewards.
Source: http://www.autarch.co/comment/8743#comment-8743 (http://www.autarch.co/comment/8743#comment-8743)
Did you notice it? Let me highlight it for you:
Quote from: Tavis...and second by the fact that our contract with Grognardia Games had us manage the Kickstarter process and then turn over all of the funds collected and the responsibility for fulfilling the backer rewards.
Jim is responsible to fulfilling the rewards. Doesn't that make you feel better?
Jim, the one who cannot even finish a dungeon that depending on what you read was ready to go in October 2011, or was ready to go as soon as the Kickstarter ended. Jim. The one who is too much of a coward to answer any questions as to his willingness to honor the Kickstarter.
If he cannot find time to work on the project, how is he going to find time to mail all that out, from Canada?
Unless he has help, but getting information out of him, or even Tavis, is like finding teeth on a hen.
This project is doomed to fail. There are far too many variables and no one is going to see anything.
IRWS
I really don't understand why Autarch would have entered into such a contract.
Regardless of whatever contract they have with Maliszewski to deliver the product, that doesn't absolve them of the contract they have with Kickstarter and the project backers to deliver the product or refund the money.
Maliszewski could give Autarch the finger and the Kickstarter backers have zero legal recourse against him as they never worked a deal with him.
Quote from: kythri;583653I really don't understand why Autarch would have entered into such a contract.
Regardless of whatever contract they have with Maliszewski to deliver the product, that doesn't absolve them of the contract they have with Kickstarter and the project backers to deliver the product or refund the money.
Maliszewski could give Autarch the finger and the Kickstarter backers have zero legal recourse against him as they never worked a deal with him.
You are right. Hell, think of it this way. What if something happened to Jim? Seriously he gets hit by a car. They are on the hook for this. If Jim has the money, they get left holding the bag.
You know, this is what kills me. Rather than attack me, or wish for sunshine and lollipops, those who are so vehemently denouncing me, need to stop and think about how bad this looks. This whole thing was set up to fail from the start.
IRWS
Quote from: kythri;583653I really don't understand why Autarch would have entered into such a contract.
Regardless of whatever contract they have with Maliszewski to deliver the product, that doesn't absolve them of the contract they have with Kickstarter and the project backers to deliver the product or refund the money.
Maliszewski could give Autarch the finger and the Kickstarter backers have zero legal recourse against him as they never worked a deal with him.
Yeah, it doesn't really make any sense. Even if Maliszewski is using Autarch for print fulfilment, they didn't need to run the Kickstarter for him. Very odd decision, and it's very hard to see what Autarch get out of it.
Quote from: Grymbok;583660Yeah, it doesn't really make any sense. Even if Maliszewski is using Autarch for print fulfilment, they didn't need to run the Kickstarter for him. Very odd decision, and it's very hard to see what Autarch get out of it.
The claim "We're the publishers of the legendary megadungeon Dwimmermount by James Maliszewski of Internets Blog fame!" ???
Except, really, they wouldn't be, would they? Because if they turned over all the cash and the responsibility for fulfillment to Maliszewski, it would seem he'd be coordinating the printing through another party.
I now DO get it all!
JM is like the Ted McGinley of RPGs!
...came in for a little stint in TN:E...boom! GDW went belly up
...went late into WW territory...boom! undead niche right there...
...tehn GURPS: Traveller...SHAZZAM it went away...
...Exalted, probably the same...
...D20 Modern, anybody heard about that in the last five years?...
...Stargate RPG never even took off meaningfully...
...OSR, obviously...
also look at the state of his FAVORITE RPG == GearKrieg if I am inclined to believe BGG.
and his blog seems to be the analogon to Dancing with the Stars?!
When JM writes for something, it has jumped the shark a week before, the harbinger of the end times, that is what he is.
Quote from: Grymbok;583660Yeah, it doesn't really make any sense. Even if Maliszewski is using Autarch for print fulfilment, they didn't need to run the Kickstarter for him. Very odd decision, and it's very hard to see what Autarch get out of it.
There was an option available to backers to receive the dungeon using ACK's rules (as opposed to LL's). Tavis, it seems, was using Jim's dungeon and followers to bring awareness to his ACKs system.
Quote from: I run with scissors;5836525. Petty Gods. This is the biggest scam. He has all the art and writing. He says as much on his blog. It has been two years, and still nothing. Why not? He has no problems begging for free game goods on his blog. Free art. Free writing. Why the not beg for some fucking free layout help?
On this one I really believe the hold-up must be that he's uncomfortable with some of the changes going on in his hero Jaquays' life. The official excuse will probably be that the rights to "Build Your Own Religion" shifted somehow when Barker died so all those plug-and-play fan submissions now need "reworked."
Either way, the "it's fun to emulate Judges Guild" boat has sailed. Iceberg!
Quote from: Jacob Marley;583680There was an option available to backers to receive the dungeon using ACK's rules (as opposed to LL's). Tavis, it seems, was using Jim's dungeon and followers to bring awareness to his ACKs system.
How do you think that is working out for him? :)
In all it just seems like typical gamer behavior.
1. Gamer decides to strike out own.
2. Gamer get's stars in their eyes.
3. Gamer learns that running a business is just that a business.
As soon as they brought in that much money, Dwimmermount stops being a hobby and it becomes a job.
IRWS
Quote from: samovar;583683On this one I really believe the hold-up must be that he's uncomfortable with some of the changes going on in his hero Jaquays' life. The official excuse will probably be that the rights to "Build Your Own Religion" shifted somehow when Barker died so all those plug-and-play fan submissions now need "reworked."
Either way, the "it's fun to emulate Judges Guild" boat has sailed. Iceberg!
Good point. If that is the case, you would think that he could provide some sort of update. He even blocks comments on his blog when asking about that.
It's easy to say you want to run a game company, but when it comes to running it, that is a different story.
IRWS
Seems like there's a lot of censoring going on at his blog. Are only fanboys allowed to comment?
I take some satisfaction seeing my predictions that the decline of professional publishing would not herald a happy new world of amateur content are coming true. You're seeing the same issue with kickstarter boardgame projects: starry-eyed fan thinks it's a piece of piss to publish a professional-quality game/book/rpg, and learns to his dismay that those nasty, greedy companies actually serve a purpose. Namely, experience, expertise, project management, quality control, and all the un-fun labour like laying out, proofing, editing, dealing with printers, etc.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583684How do you think that is working out for him? :)
Nearly everyone I know who has discussed ACKs has done so in a very positive light. Even those who are upset with Jim still appear to be giving Tavis the benefit of doubt.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583684In all it just seems like typical gamer behavior.
1. Gamer decides to strike out own.
2. Gamer get's stars in their eyes.
3. Gamer learns that running a business is just that a business.
I am not sure why you think this is exclusive to gamers? I spent a number of years in commerical banking and I can assure you that this is fairly common of people of all stripes.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583684As soon as they brought in that much money, Dwimmermount stops being a hobby and it becomes a job.
This I agree with.
I think the observations that you've made could well apply to most people's dungeons and adventures. You'll see tons of posts on rpg forums by people who brag that they never run published modules, they always write their own original content and 9/10 of them probably are just generic dungeons with generic stuff on a generic map. Of course, for the most part that is fine as you don't have to be a superstar to have fun with a group of friends at a gaming table. However, don't then come on the internet and act like you're some superstar that runs super cool stuff that those hack published writers can't come close to touching you or proclaim that people who do run published modules are somehow inferior to your awesome home brew stuff.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583628I talked about this a couple pages back: The original key is pretty much completely uninspiring. I've only skimmed the material developed from that key, but my initial impression is that this is a generic dungeon with a generic map filled with generic stuff.
Again, this is based entirely on a skim read of incomplete material. But it seems to lack the identity of the Caverns of Thracia or Rappan Athuk. It lacks the attitude and heft of the Temple of Elemental Evil.
And the individual encounter key simply lacks cleverness or interest. For example, I just randomly stopped on a page featuring: A room full of webs with two giant spiders in it. A room with an animated statue that will attack anyone entering the chamber. A room with four gargoyles sitting on pedestals who will attack anyone entering the chamber.
Earlier in this thread a few people championed the idea that you can key a room with "8 skeletons" and then provide all the necessary details during play. Which is true. But unless you actually do something clever with those 8 skeletons, anybody can do that. And they can do it from a random stocking table. Most of what I'm seeing in Dwimmermount is just James using multiple sentences to write the equivalent of "8 skeletons".
Quote from: Haffrung;583697I take some satisfaction seeing my predictions that the decline of professional publishing would not herald a happy new world of amateur content are coming true. You're seeing the same issue with kickstarter boardgame projects: starry-eyed fan thinks it's a piece of piss to publish a professional-quality game/book/rpg, and learns to his dismay that those nasty, greedy companies actually serve a purpose. Namely, experience, expertise, project management, quality control, and all the un-fun labour like laying out, proofing, editing, dealing with printers, etc.
Sorry dude, but I'm really not seeing a hobby-wide (nor OSR-wide for that matter) pattern here. You should check out this thread: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=24072
It's not EVEN an Autarch-wide pattern because Adventurer Conqueror King was kickstarted and delivered (and awesome), The ACKS companion is soon to be delivered IIRC, so ... this here is really James M's issue at this point.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583655Rather than attack me, or wish for sunshine and lollipops, those who are so vehemently denouncing me, need to stop and think about how bad this looks.
Stop fucking with my sunshine and lollipops!
Quote from: Settembrini;583672...Stargate RPG never even took off meaningfully...
It's interesting to see when particular RPGs get hot in certain regions. In LA, I rarely saw Stargate being played at cons even when it was published, yet in Central California the game has a hefty following and its been at PolyCon every year with full tables.
Quote from: Spinachcat;583730It's interesting to see when particular RPGs get hot in certain regions. In LA, I rarely saw Stargate being played at cons even when it was published, yet in Central California the game has a hefty following and its been at PolyCon every year with full tables.
Weird how these things work, heh?
Quote from: Jacob Marley;583703Nearly everyone I know who has discussed ACKs has done so in a very positive light. Even those who are upset with Jim still appear to be giving Tavis the benefit of doubt.
True, and believe it or not I like the game. Yet ACKS came before the Dwimmermount (almost typed Dwimmerdust lol) Kickstarter. I can see doing it to get some good PR. However, the PR since then, I feel, has not been good. I would think twice about ever doing a Kickstarter run by Tavis and company. The reason? Jim and the epic fail of the Dwimmermount Kickstarter. I cannot be the only one who feels this way either.
QuoteI am not sure why you think this is exclusive to gamers? I spent a number of years in commercial banking and I can assure you that this is fairly common of people of all stripes.
I don't. However we were talking about this, which happens to be a gamer. You can apply it to a lot of hobbies Hell, check this epic fail out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/schuyler/lockpicks-by-open-locksport/posts
My point was only addressing that this was a gamer, and in my experience gamers tend to feel running a company is nothing but a piece of cake.
IRWS
Quote from: Endless Flight;583688Seems like there's a lot of censoring going on at his blog. Are only fanboys allowed to comment?
Yup.
Jim hates free speech. Jim has principles you know (http://ubi-petrus.livejournal.com/30231.html).
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583747Yup.
Jim hates free speech. Jim has principles you know (http://ubi-petrus.livejournal.com/30231.html)
Wow, that's a good one. So he could've held his nose and voted for McCain despite being soft on dead baby parts, but outlawing torture was the final straw?
Quote from: I run with scissors;583747Yup.
Jim hates free speech. Jim has principles you know (http://ubi-petrus.livejournal.com/30231.html).
IRWS
Wait. That's not a blog post from James M, is it?
Somehow I think the only natural conclusion of this thread is for Running With Scissors to go make out hard with James M.
Quote from: Benoist;583751Wait. That's not a blog post from James M, is it?
Yes it is. This was the other blog he kept between June 15, 2007 and September 5, 2008.
IRWS
Quote from: TristramEvans;583753Somehow I think the only natural conclusion of this thread is for Running With Scissors to go make out hard with James M.
Um, no. Jim would have problems with same sex kissing.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;583756Um, no. Jim would have problems with same sex kissing.
IRWS
Then you could just bend over and take it.
Wait what? JM is also a catholic nutter?
(note that nutters can come in various flavours, catholic being just one of them)
ADD: linked livejournal-> Ontario, JRR Tolkien, Birthday: 1969-10-29
BGG JM:
James Maliszewski (born October 29, 1969 in Heerlen, Netherlands) is a game designer who has written a lot of gaming material. He is is perhaps best known now for his retro imperial science fiction game Thousand Suns, although he might select the Gear Krieg role-playing game as his personal favorite.
He has been living in Toronto, Canada.
Seems very likely!
Quote from: tristramevans;583757then you could just bend over and take it.
like the dwimmermount backers lol
So as a backer, I have access to about half or so of the promised 13 levels in complete, un-copy-edited draft form.
It's pretty much what I expected. There is some good mega-plot stuff, the encounters and tricks and traps are pretty standard.
But the maps are this cliched, 10th grade "let's jam loads of rectangular rooms into one piece of graph paper" job. They get somewhat more interesting around level 6 or so, but I can't see a bunch of players plodding dutifully through the first couple. After Stonehell and Mad Archmage showed what you could do there's just no reason to design that way any more.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583757Then you could just bend over and take it.
Once again, Jim would have problems with that (http://ubi-petrus.livejournal.com/7595.html).
IRWS
That is some good shit. So he needs god intervene so he is able to love his wife?
I try not to be vile in the interpretation, just trying to parse it.
ADD: Ah, maybe god has not sanctified the Dwimmermount project? Could that be? Also, how about Max Weber and catholics being lazy bums? Is there a connection? And what has analytic philosophy to do with it?
Quote from: I run with scissors;583755Yes it is. This was the other blog he kept between June 15, 2007 and September 5, 2008.
IRWS
Doesn't James M live in Toronto? He's American?
Quote from: Benoist;583764Doesn't James M live in Toronto? He's American?
He talked on Grognardia about growing up near Baltimore.
Quote from: Benoist;583764Doesn't James M live in Toronto? He's American?
Yes. He's talked about how he went to Canada for grad school.
IRWS
Ooooh I am learning stuff today...
He was far more interesting when he talked about finding gamers and shops near Baltimore in his youth than when he rambles on about Ares magazine.
Quote from: Grymbok;583660Yeah, it doesn't really make any sense. Even if Maliszewski is using Autarch for print fulfilment, they didn't need to run the Kickstarter for him. Very odd decision, and it's very hard to see what Autarch get out of it.
I remember seeing discussions around that time that implied that Autarch took a 10% "Kickstarter management fee" (since James is in Canada, he can't run his own KS without forming a U.S. company and getting a U.S. bank account). Kickstarter also takes 10%, but if you think 80% of what you'll get on Kickstarter is a bigger $ than 90-odd% of Indiegogo, it becomes a win-win for both parties if it goes smoothly.
Which didn't happen, and the contract between Autarch and James was dumb for Autarch, who remains responsible for fulfillment in the eyes of KS.
Was Thousand Suns any good?
Quote from: I run with scissors;583746My point was only addressing that this was a gamer, and in my experience gamers tend to feel running a company is nothing but a piece of cake.
I watch too much food porn. If you think gamers are bad, you should see the people who open restaurants only because they like food. Not even because they like to cook.
Running a business isn't rocket science, but its a different skill set than being a creator.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583746True, and believe it or not I like the game. Yet ACKS came before the Dwimmermount (almost typed Dwimmerdust lol) Kickstarter. I can see doing it to get some good PR. However, the PR since then, I feel, has not been good. I would think twice about ever doing a Kickstarter run by Tavis and company. The reason? Jim and the epic fail of the Dwimmermount Kickstarter. I cannot be the only one who feels this way either.
Yes, the PR as a whole has not been good -- and you clearly have had a part in that -- but it also appears to be limited to a subset of people on a couple of message boards. Many (most?) of which, like myself, are fairly indifferent to the delays. Even in your post that I quoted, I get the impression that you would still fund Tavis (though with some hesitation). And you have shown a great deal of venom for Jim! So, I am not really sure that Tavis and company is in that bad of shape with regards to future Kickstarters.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583746My point was only addressing that this was a gamer, and in my experience gamers tend to feel running a company is nothing but a piece of cake.
Right and my point is simply that you can (and should) replace gamer with people and the statement still holds true.
JMal has never been a difficult target, he is big softy who never bites back, so dragging the ass out of this pillorying is a little disgusting and the fact that a moderator here, Benoist, is effeminately trolling with passive coaxing is unprincipled and repulsive.
You can all let me know when you want to mock a tougher target, a tougher and more ridiculous target who at least bites back at small fry,
--== ZAK S ==- HE LIVES IN A BIG CITY!! "Its like living in the future", he averred. "People who don't live in a BIG CITY are so like whatever", he explained. "When I think about like me and my hair, in the like morningtime, I think 'wowser, Im like in a comicbook of my own invention!!'"
Quote from: samovar;583750Wow, that's a good one. So he could've held his nose and voted for McCain despite being soft on dead baby parts, but outlawing torture was the final straw?
McCain voted *against* the ban on waterboarding.
This is turning into Desborough country.
It kinda highlights my problem with kickstarters though.
Quote from: ptingler;583714I think the observations that you've made could well apply to most people's dungeons and adventures. You'll see tons of posts on rpg forums by people who brag that they never run published modules, they always write their own original content and 9/10 of them probably are just generic dungeons with generic stuff on a generic map. Of course, for the most part that is fine as you don't have to be a superstar to have fun with a group of friends at a gaming table. However, don't then come on the internet and act like you're some superstar that runs super cool stuff that those hack published writers can't come close to touching you or proclaim that people who do run published modules are somehow inferior to your awesome home brew stuff.
I've never met these posters; I'll have to take your word for it. I myself have a few issues with published modules.
I enjoy drawing maps, placing monsters, traps, and treasures, and working out how the (e.g.) deserted cliff-dweller city got to be the way it is. I enjoy cooking up a town full of NPCs and working out how they relate to each other. I enjoy creating a mystery and scattering clues throughout the session. Why pay some strange man on the internet to have my fun for me?
Busy night. I'll try and write more later.
I've been slow in posting - this is a busy time of year for me - but will be catching up with some older remarks and glad to answer new questions.
Quote from: EOTB;583775I remember seeing discussions around that time that implied that Autarch took a 10% "Kickstarter management fee" (since James is in Canada, he can't run his own KS without forming a U.S. company and getting a U.S. bank account).
No, the 10% figure you heard was probably that Kickstarter takes 5% and Amazon Payments takes 5%.
Quote from: EOTB;583775the contract between Autarch and James was dumb for Autarch, who remains responsible for fulfillment in the eyes of KS.
Starting a RPG company is dumb. This is not a business you'd be in if you were solely focused on return on investment and never did things just because you were passionate about them. Kickstarter makes it a little less dumb because, if it turns out no one else cares, you're not as far in the hole at the point where this becomes clear.
Quote from: Jacob Marley;583778Yes, the PR as a whole has not been good -- and you clearly have had a part in that -- but it also appears to be limited to a subset of people on a couple of message boards. Many (most?) of which, like myself, are fairly indifferent to the delays.
It's hard to tell what's fire and what's smoke on message boards, but the subset of backers who've been pissed enough to contact me personally is less than 1%. If you're in that group, though, send me an email at tavis@autarch.co or call +1 (917) 749-6938.
Quote from: Jacob Marley;583778Even in your post that I quoted, I get the impression that you would still fund Tavis (though with some hesitation).
I would be sad to lose I Run With Scissors as a future customer. I say that not just in the usual happy-shiny way, but in the specific sense that anyone who does a Kickstarter is fortunate to have backers who will be glad if the project is completed but even gladder if it is not. Disappointing though this may be for some, it seems pretty likely at this point that Dwimmermount will be completed.
Quote from: Tavis;583820I've been slow in posting - this is a busy time of year for me - but will be catching up with some older remarks and glad to answer new questions.
No, the 10% figure you heard was probably that Kickstarter takes 5% and Amazon Payments takes 5%.
I'm curious: what is Autarch's role in this if all the money was turned over to James in the end anyway?
Quote from: One Horse Town;583808This is turning into Desborough country.
Oh, I don't know.
Have we gotten into
bastardy yet?
Quote from: FASERIP;583826Oh, I don't know.
Have we gotten into bastardy yet?
Give it time. ;)
Quote from: _kent_;583799JMal has never been a difficult target, he is big softy who never bites back, so dragging the ass out of this pillorying is a little disgusting and the fact that a moderator here, Benoist, is effeminately trolling with passive coaxing is unprincipled and repulsive.
You misunderstand me. My aim here isn't trolling. It's originally to talk about what's happened to that kickstarter, how it fucked up and why, and how the people that funded the project feel about it - to learn some lessons of all things. As a matter of fact, before you even posted on this thread, I contacted Tavis to make him aware of the existence of this thread (he already was). It's different to be in the position of the guy behind the company hosting the forum answering questions in that capacity, and being on some third-party forum answering the same and/or different questions as one of the two parties originally involved.
The stuff about James writing alternate blogs, having very clear-cut opinions about politics he posted all over the internet, being American (I always thought he was Canadian) and the like are things I genuinely did not know so... yeah, I'm curious. Bet I am.
Quote from: Tavis;583820It's hard to tell what's fire and what's smoke on message boards, but the subset of backers who've been pissed enough to contact me personally is less than 1%. If you're in that group, though, send me an email at tavis@autarch.co or call +1 (917) 749-6938.
Nope, I am part of the 99%. I did email you this afternoon about changing my hardbound book from LL to ACKS though. This thread reminded me that I wanted to do that.
Quote from: Benoist;583715It's not EVEN an Autarch-wide pattern because Adventurer Conqueror King was kickstarted and delivered (and awesome), The ACKS companion is soon to be delivered IIRC, so ... this here is really James M's issue at this point.
And let's keep this in perspective: Despite the lying sack of shit screaming at the top of his lungs, the reality of this situation is that Dwimmermount suffered a setback, they regrouped and put together a revised plan of action, and every indication is that they are now meeting their new deadlines. Assuming that holds true, they'll be delivering later this fall after only a few months of delay.
It's not an ideal situation. But it hardly constitutes the apocalypse that the lying sack of shit is trying to make it look like.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583835And let's keep this in perspective: Despite the lying sack of shit screaming at the top of his lungs, the reality of this situation is that Dwimmermount suffered a setback, they regrouped and put together a revised plan of action, and every indication is that they are now meeting their new deadlines. Assuming that holds true, they'll be delivering later this fall after only a few months of delay.
It's unlikely it will be a fall release according to this Kickstarter update:
QuoteSo a basis for a reasonable projection might be this post-update rate of progress, past the green line. Because that will fall somewhere between the optimistic and pessimistic guesses, it's safe to assume that you won't have the PDF this fall, but neither will you have to wait for more than a year after you backed the project. However, after doing this analysis I don't think we have enough data yet to make a more precise prediction with the degree of confidence you deserve. Although I'd promised a schedule for overall completion this in this week's update, I think it is better to break that promise than to set up expectations for another release date that might not be met.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583761Once again, Jim would have problems with that (http://ubi-petrus.livejournal.com/7595.html).
IRWS
That link is just some guy going on about how marriage requires love to work.
Quote from: misterguignol;583823I'm curious: what is Autarch's role in this if all the money was turned over to James in the end anyway?
Currently it's project management, plus the original plan of handling the crowdfunding and communication with backers (related since both funds and KS updates go through the same account). In future we might handle post-Kickstarter sales and distribution, or we might leave that to Grognardia Games. That decision will depend more on our sense of the market and decisions about which sales channels we want to focus on than anything else.
Quote from: Benoist;583829My aim here isn't trolling. It's originally to talk about what's happened to that kickstarter, how it fucked up and why, and how the people that funded the project feel about it - to learn some lessons of all things. As a matter of fact, before you even posted on this thread, I contacted Tavis to make him aware of the existence of this thread (he already was).
I appreciate the extra nudge to join the thread, Benoist; you are good people and I won't rat you out if my boss wants to know why I was posting here instead of doing the departmental budget :).
I've posted about some lessons learned at the Autarch forums and the backer updates. The big two are that setting an unrealistically tight release date can turn a delay into a fuckup and that posting updates whether or not there is any new content to share is annoying for a project that's going well but essential to one that's run into rough waters.
Another thing that's noteworthy is how the culture around Kickstarter has changed rapidly and is still evolving. When we did the first one for ACKS, the terms of service didn't say anything about refunds, and it was easier for a bunch of relative unknowns to use KS to build a company because we weren't competing against guys like Steve Jackson and Reaper who made all their mistakes decades ago.
I'd date the current environment for RPG stuff on KS to the Order of the Stick reprints. Lots of people learned about KS for the first time because of Rich's well-deserved success, and many of these new users came with an expectation that as a rule, backer rewards would be ready to ship as soon as the creator finished counting the money. This is a really extreme case of using KS just to fund the shipping and distribution of an existing product. Most of us also use KS as a way to build an audience, but the distributor and retailer type people I've talked to said that they'd been begging for OotS reprints for years; Rich's KS capitalized on a degree of pre-existing demand that most of us can only dream of.
Autarch's next Kickstarter will be for the Domains at War mass combat rules, which are something like 99% done, whereas the ACKS core rules were on revision 7 out of 37 when we launched their KS. That's in part a reaction to the changed expectations for Kickstarters, but it's also a reflection of the maturity of the company. Thanks to people taking a risk on us when we were just a sprout, we're now in a situation where we can afford to do more of the development before launching the KS. Partially that means having money in the bank, but more importantly it's having built a community of people who we know care about the same things and can crowdsource playtesting and feedback without having to do a new crowdfunding campaign.
Input from backers made ACKS a much better game than it would have been if it had been already written, and thus resistant to input from many-heads-better-than-one, when we did its Kickstarter. However, another lesson for me is that this approach isn't necessarily the right solution for every project. In my sig it says "James Maliszewski's Dwimmermount", which creates some resistance to backer input right upfront. For many people, there's a desire to see the dungeon he created in '09 rather than one designed by committee. In cases like this the benefits of doing the writing in tandem with backer feedback in the post-Kickstarter period often won't outweigh the drawbacks; counterexamples of getting input from readers, like the NPC rosters discussed at Grognardia this week, aren't so substantive that they couldn't have been reworked into a largely complete draft.
Why is Dwimmermount called "legendary" when he only started creating it three years ago and it isn't even finished yet? That'd be like calling a baseball player a Hall of Famer when he's still playing in college.
Quote from: Endless Flight;583847Why is Dwimmermount called "legendary" when he only started creating it three years ago and it isn't even finished yet? That'd be like calling a baseball player a Hall of Famer when he's still playing in college.
Because he's posted a lot about it on Grognardia, and the OSR crowd loved it.
Quote from: Endless Flight;583847Why is Dwimmermount called "legendary" when he only started creating it three years ago and it isn't even finished yet? That'd be like calling a baseball player a Hall of Famer when he's still playing in college.
It'd make sense if baseball was only three years old, right? On the OSR timeline Dwimmermount is
ancient, and less of it had been revealed than other early talked-about dungeons like Under Xylarthen's Tower or Mines of Khunmar.
The hype on the Kickstarter page is largely mine; folks at K&K Alehouse correctly perceived that this would be very uncharacteristic for a Canadian, or even someone who's lived over there. By American standards I thought I was being relatively subdued, and it may or may not be sufficient justification that it's all stuff I believe.
Reading Grognardia was one of my main delivery routes for the old-school Kool-Aid (and I think the only one I didn't discover from hanging out at theRPGSite at the time I was a 4E playtester and this was the only place people were saying the things I knew to be true; if memory serves I got introduced to Jeff Rients' blog and Philotomy's musings by their posts here). When I was a player in the Dwimmermount PbP game at the OD&D boards in '09 it already seemed like a legendary thing to me, and when I described the dungeon as long-awaited I was speaking for myself. That seems to have been true for hundreds of other backers, although motivations for pledging to the KS evidently vary.
Quote from: Tavis;583850It'd make sense if baseball was only three years old, right?
I'm actually pretty comfortable saying that anyone talking about a Hall of Fame for a sport that's only three years old sounds pretty ridiculous to me, too. ;)
Quote from: Tavis;583850On the OSR timeline Dwimmermount is ancient
This is, of course, why the self-appointed "OSR" is shit. But that's for another thread.
Quote from: Tavis;583850It'd make sense if baseball was only three years old, right? On the OSR timeline Dwimmermount is ancient, and less of it had been revealed than other early talked-about dungeons like Under Xylarthen's Tower or Mines of Khunmar.
Dwimmermount doesn't actually
exist yet, so why is it on any timeline? That's kind of what I'm getting at with the analogy.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583835And let's keep this in perspective: Despite the lying sack of shit screaming at the top of his lungs, the reality of this situation is that Dwimmermount suffered a setback, they regrouped and put together a revised plan of action, and every indication is that they are now meeting their new deadlines. Assuming that holds true, they'll be delivering later this fall after only a few months of delay.
It's not an ideal situation. But it hardly constitutes the apocalypse that the lying sack of shit is trying to make it look like.
Still at it? How's your crowd funding project going? It's been a year since it closed. I bet your backers would like what they funded.
Just saying.
The more you call me a sack of shit, the more silly you look. At least I Abe not taken money under false pretenses.
IRWS
Quote from: Tavis;583844Autarch's next Kickstarter will be for the Domains at War mass combat rules.
I knew something positive would result from this thread.
I for one am dying to find out more about Autarch's future business projects especially DOMAINS OF WAR which promises exciting INNOVATIONS in a suite of mass combat rules.
Thank *you* Tavis for complimenting prospective customers ahead of their investment. You make us all feel so ... Christmassy.
If you have any curios or personal articles of clothing you wish to sell on ebay, this is the place to let us know. Your pocket is our concern.
I think this thread has made me want to put a new face on all my old mega dungeon maps I had since the 80s and release it for free.
Quote from: Endless Flight;583853
Dwimmermount doesn't actually exist yet, so why is it on any timeline? That's kind of what I'm getting at with the analogy.
It's a dungeon that players have been adventuring in for years, and still are. Part of the problem here is the definition of "exist", and I've apologized elsewhere for not better separating out these meanings in the KS pitch. But if materials that have seen extensive actual play can be said to exist, most commercial RPG products don't reach that definition until long after they're published.
Quote from: _kent_;583855If you have any curios or personal articles of clothing you wish to sell on ebay, this is the place to let us know. Your pocket is our concern.
Thanks! In the event, I will put it in my sig so it's appended to every post.
Quote from: Tavis;583820No, the 10% figure you heard was probably that Kickstarter takes 5% and Amazon Payments takes 5%.
No, I had already factored Kickstarter's 10% (or 5%+5%) in:
Quote from: EOTB;583775I remember seeing discussions around that time that implied that Autarch took a 10% "Kickstarter management fee" (since James is in Canada, he can't run his own KS without forming a U.S. company and getting a U.S. bank account). Kickstarter also takes 10%, but if you think 80% of what you'll get on Kickstarter is a bigger $ than 90-odd% of Indiegogo, it becomes a win-win for both parties if it goes smoothly.
Perhaps Autarch isn't charging him an additional 10%, as I saw speculated - and I'm not demanding you detail how much such a charge would be. But I certainly don't think Autarch did it for nothing.
Quote from: Tavis;583820Starting a RPG company is dumb. This is not a business you'd be in if you were solely focused on return on investment and never did things just because you were passionate about them. Kickstarter makes it a little less dumb because, if it turns out no one else cares, you're not as far in the hole at the point where this becomes clear.
Starting an RPG company may be dumb - my point is that turning over the revenue carrot/stick while retaining the overall liability is a dumber way to do something dumb like running an RPG company. This probably sounds hostile, and I don't really mean it to be, but from a business case perspective I think it valid to highlight it as a lesson learned for others who may be considering doing something similar. Other non-U.S. residents may try to arrange joint ventures like this in the future again, after all.
I agree with others that your recent transparency - even providing a phone number to call - is exemplary customer service and has made or kept the majority of your customers content for the current time.
Quote from: Tavis;583850It'd make sense if baseball was only three years old, right? On the OSR timeline Dwimmermount is ancient, and less of it had been revealed than other early talked-about dungeons like Under Xylarthen's Tower or Mines of Khunmar.
So you're saying it doesn't make sense then, right? ;)
I mean, if the OSR is, at its foundations, the continuing play and promotion of the original games than it isn't three years old. It's almost 40 since a large contingent of such players never moved into the new editions. So no, I don't see a dungeon created in 2009 as ancient by OSR standards, unless the definition of OSR now excludes the original games. That would be a narrow definition that weirdly removes recognition of the very thing the OSR rallied around.
I suppose how "old" one considers it depends on if someone places the most import on, or considers the heart of the OSR to be, the people who kept those philosophies alive when they were not in vogue, or instead on a first wave of people returning from having wholly adopted later editions and playstyles. But the latter definition is somewhat insulting to those who thought the later editions were always crap, and put together the foundations for WotC edition players to return to.
Quote from: Tavis;583862Part of the problem here is the definition of "exist"
This is true; it depends on if you think that having 3 or 4 levels of an 8+ level megadungeon written and/or mapped means that it exists on a practical level, as opposed to a legal, "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is" level.
I think that the misinterpretation also came from the identifying it as the "centerpiece of James' campaign" in the KS. Since most people assume James frequently plays the games, it is assumed that the centerpiece of his game would have more than 3 or 4 levels completed at the time of initiating sales. But since that interpretation rests on the perception of James rather than what James has explicitly said about himself, that misinterpretation is not the fault or responsibility of Autarch's marketing of the kickstarter in any way.
Quote from: EOTB;583866I don't see a dungeon created in 2009 as ancient by OSR standards, unless the definition of OSR now excludes the original games. That would be a narrow definition that weirdly removes recognition of the very thing the OSR rallied around. I suppose how "old" one considers it depends on if someone places the most import on, or considers the heart of the OSR to be, the people who kept those philosophies alive when they were not in vogue, or instead on a first wave of people returning from having wholly adopted later editions and playstyles. But the latter definition is somewhat insulting to those who thought the later editions were always crap, and put together the foundations for WotC edition players to return to.
I see the heart of the OSR circles I'm part of as being the process of discovering and explaining why the original playstyles rock. This is kind of a modern phenomenon, despite the great advice you can get from the AD&D PHB section on adventuring or the tournament scoring guidelines from the original Lost Caverns of Tsojconth. It necessarily implies an audience for whom this stuff is new or at least worthy of explaining, and having this as my perspective means I'm always at risk of offending people who were around the foundations of the scene before than I was. Jon Peterson's
Playing at the World made me realize how much the Acaeum and collectors in general did to bring this heritage back into the spotlight, and I'm always on the lookout for chances to play with people who've been rolling this way nonstop; there just aren't many locally.
Quote from: Tavis;583871I see the heart of the OSR circles I'm part of as being the process of discovering and explaining why the original playstyles rock. This is kind of a modern phenomenon, despite the great advice you can get from the AD&D PHB section on adventuring or the tournament scoring guidelines from the original Lost Caverns of Tsojconth.
Ouch. The "discovering" part is great. I bought the PHB 30 years ago and don't need it "explained" to me, thanks.
When I think of "legendary", I think of things that have been played and read by hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people, like Keep on the Borderlands.
When I think "legendary dungeon" I think:
- EGG's Castle Greyhawk Dungeons
- Arneson's Blackmoor Dungeons
- RJK's El Raja Key
- M.A.R. Barker's Tekumel Underworld
That is, huge, sprawling megadungeons that have existed since the dawn of the hobby, hosted many players, and are storied, but remain mostly unpublished and sparsely documented.
Stuff like B2, S1, and T1-4 I'd put more in a "classic dungeon" category. Experienced and loved by lots of people, but well known and well documented.
Quote from: Endless Flight;583875When I think of "legendary", I think of things that have been played and read by hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people, like Keep on the Borderlands.
Oh I quite think Dwimmermount is going to wind up being legendary.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583877That is, huge, sprawling megadungeons that have existed since the dawn of the hobby, hosted many players, and are storied, but remain mostly unpublished and sparsely documented.
Yes, but what Tavis just told us was, that in his perception of the OSR, Dwimmermount
has existed since the dawn of the hobby.
Think about it - that's not snark. That one statement actually explains quite a bit of the difference between the pre-2008 OSR and the later, mostly separate blogosphere OSR and, why many in the latter see themselves as its center of gravity. Their focus, and their world, are those who know less about the old ways then the bloggers and who like the bounded, one-way, bite-sized nuggets of basic concept exploration the bloggers provide. Readers provide an audience (and probably a market) as opposed to the fraternity many message boards feel like; instead other "famous" bloggers provide that fraternal function. It also explains why you rarely see them on any of the long-established message boards in a non-commercial capacity just shooting the shit.
Starting an RPG company may be dumb, but there are smarter ways to go about it and I would include focusing on the blogosphere market as one of those - they need more stuff.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;583878Oh I quite think Dwimmermount is going to wind up being legendary.
Yes, but in what way? :D
Quote from: Endless Flight;583886Yes, but in what way? :D
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3338/3589716749_f978a6a44d.jpg)
Quote from: I run with scissors;583854The more you call me a sack of shit, the more silly you look.
Oh no! The lying troll Tu Quoque (http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque) is wandering the wilds of RPGSite! Whatever shall we do?
Let's take a moment to review your pertinent posts:
Quote from: I run with scissors;583231It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583452Richard Barton on August 20
What? How can this be? I am a lying "sack of shit" according to you. I have no idea who this backer is, but here is the first backer who expressed something other than sunshine and lollipops.
Do you have any explanation yet for your belief that August 20th happens before August 10th, you lying sack of shit?
Quote from: Tavis;583850It'd make sense if baseball was only three years old, right? On the OSR timeline Dwimmermount is ancient, and less of it had been revealed than other early talked-about dungeons like Under Xylarthen's Tower or Mines of Khunmar.
If we take neo-old school dungeons (that is, not Blackmoor, Greyhawk, Jakkalá or El Raja Key), where does this put Rappan Athuk (2001), which goes back to Bill Webb's 1970s Wilderlands campaign, and has had rather significant exposure since its publication? To put things into contrast, Dwimmermount is less ancient than my recently retired mobile phone (2004), and I believe post-dates Fight On! magazine (2008). It can be sold on many merits, but age is not one of them.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;583898Oh no! The lying troll Tu Quoque (http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque) is wandering the wilds of RPGSite! Whatever shall we do?
Let's take a moment to review your pertinent posts:
Do you have any explanation yet for your belief that August 20th happens before August 10th, you lying sack of shit?
So you fulfilled all promises to, your backers them?
I'm done with you. Deflect. Profane.
The fact that while typing I got a date wrong, you know have a typo. Should be obvious to anyone. So a typo, which I did not correct makes me a piece of shit? Totally invalidated my argument? Ok then.
How does it feel to be a scam artist? I mean you use some shady crowd funding site to fund your fantasy heart breaker cut and paste 3e clone. Still a year later no one has the product they gave you money for. Why? Artists flake out, or something. Your rehashing of 3e stalls ecause of two pieces of art? A decent person would refund te money, or just release the product without the art.
Ok. My typo bad.
Your scam good?
You are no better then Jim .
IRWS
The use of 'legendary' does make Tavis complicit in fooling so many backers, assuming Tavis is responsible for the air-horn hyperbole on the kickstarter page which reads to those in the know like a clowning personal ad:- Hunk with legendary musculature seeks suckers to do his bidding.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583877When I think "legendary dungeon" I think:
- EGG's Castle Greyhawk Dungeons
- Arneson's Blackmoor Dungeons
- RJK's El Raja Key
- M.A.R. Barker's Tekumel Underworld
Okay. I need to sit down.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583877When I think "legendary dungeon" I think:
- EGG's Castle Greyhawk Dungeons
- Arneson's Blackmoor Dungeons
- RJK's El Raja Key
- M.A.R. Barker's Tekumel Underworld
That is, huge, sprawling megadungeons that have existed since the dawn of the hobby, hosted many players, and are storied, but remain mostly unpublished and sparsely documented.
These are the holy grails, to be sure. Modern exemplars are less significant, but they're also more accessible. One of the things I hoped to get out of volunteering for the Gygax Memorial Fund was some insight into what it would take to get the original Castle Greyhawk levels published. I don't see any likely scenario in which that'd happen, but I do think that it'd be not-impossible to see some of the Blackmoor dungeon material from the "Bluemoor" notebook released either as a commercial product or an archive. Among my personal goals with Dwimmermount was to get some experience with the work that'd go into such a project, the possible market for it, and the different ways it could be presented. I believe Allan Grohe is doing all that can be done to pursue an archival release for El Raja Key, and the Tékumel Foundation makes the Jakallan Underworld probably the best bet out of any of the ones on this list to see the light of day.
Quote from: EOTB;583885the difference between the pre-2008 OSR and the later, mostly separate blogosphere OSR and, why many in the latter see themselves as its center of gravity. Their focus, and their world, are those who know less about the old ways then the bloggers and who like the bounded, one-way, bite-sized nuggets of basic concept exploration the bloggers provide. Readers provide an audience (and probably a market) as opposed to the fraternity many message boards feel like; instead other "famous" bloggers provide that fraternal function. It also explains why you rarely see them on any of the long-established message boards in a non-commercial capacity just shooting the shit.
As a post-2008 guy, I see Finarvyn's OD&D message board as central both as a venue for fraternity and an organizing point for projects like Fight On!
Quote from: Melan;583920If we take neo-old school dungeons (that is, not Blackmoor, Greyhawk, Jakkalá or El Raja Key), where does this put Rappan Athuk (2001), which goes back to Bill Webb's 1970s Wilderlands campaign, and has had rather significant exposure since its publication?
Necromancer/Frog God certainly deserve big blasts on my airhorn. The Black Monastery is also a notable example of bringing old material into print, although I haven't read it. I'd also cite Eric Mona and the Paizo crew as among the ogres whose shoulders the OSR is standing on; I don't doubt that the backstage story of publishing Maure Castle would take many beers to tell.
Quote from: samovar;583874Ouch. The "discovering" part is great. I bought the PHB 30 years ago and don't need it "explained" to me, thanks.
Then you are good to go.
On more serious note most of the "explaining" is oriented to OD&D. While that by the book AD&D combat is pretty impenetrable (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/php4/archive.php?sectioninit=FE&fileid=263&watchfile=0), OD&D is even tougher. The OD&D referee has to decide which of the various interpretations he going to use for his campaign as there is no one way to run OD&D by the book.
Quote from: estar;583970Then you are good to go.
Thanks, Rob. And to think when Castles & Crusades came out my crowd blew it off as a parody and not the shape of things to come.
Quote from: Tavis;583850When I was a player in the Dwimmermount PbP game at the OD&D boards in '09 it already seemed like a legendary thing to me, and when I described the dungeon as long-awaited I was speaking for myself. That seems to have been true for hundreds of other backers, although motivations for pledging to the KS evidently vary.
I was a player in that game as well. (http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=jamesm) and what struck me was how much backstory history seemed to be infused in the place. It felt old in-game, old on multiple levels. That the primary reason I backed the Kickstarter so I can read the rest of it for enjoyment, use, and inspiration.
If James successfully gets this into the final product I think Dwimmermount will be well worth the wait.
It doesn't bother me that the rest wasn't formally written because from reading James Blog and having played it obvious me that he has it down in his head. That from his actual play reports much of that was exposed to his players. So I am personally confident he was what he needs to detail the lower levels effectively.
I do think the original deadlines were overly optimistic. I know from writing the Majestic Wilderlands supplement that it take fair amount of time to get what in your head into a form usable and understandable. That it is better to set a pessimistic deadline from onset than a optimistic deadline.
Quote from: samovar;583973Thanks, Rob. And to think when Castles & Crusades came out my crowd blew it off as a parody and not the shape of things to come.
I guess I will need some context about your gaming background to understand where you are coming from.
My general answer to statement like yours is that everything in the OSR is a consequence of the d20 SRD released under the Open Game License. Note I am NOT saying every OSR product is under the Open Game License.
Why the OGL is important is that the barrier of entry to producing rulesets and product for older edition D&D is non-existent. This means that the OSR is defined by those who do the work. That the only solution to "fixing" it, other than not buy or read anything, it for you to do your own product to show the rest of us how we are doing it wrong. ;)
Quote from: Tavis;583850It'd make sense if baseball was only three years old, right? On the OSR timeline Dwimmermount is ancient, and less of it had been revealed than other early talked-about dungeons like Under Xylarthen's Tower or Mines of Khunmar.
The hype on the Kickstarter page is largely mine; folks at K&K Alehouse correctly perceived that this would be very uncharacteristic for a Canadian, or even someone who's lived over there. By American standards I thought I was being relatively subdued, and it may or may not be sufficient justification that it's all stuff I believe.
Reading Grognardia was one of my main delivery routes for the old-school Kool-Aid (and I think the only one I didn't discover from hanging out at theRPGSite at the time I was a 4E playtester and this was the only place people were saying the things I knew to be true; if memory serves I got introduced to Jeff Rients' blog and Philotomy's musings by their posts here). When I was a player in the Dwimmermount PbP game at the OD&D boards in '09 it already seemed like a legendary thing to me, and when I described the dungeon as long-awaited I was speaking for myself. That seems to have been true for hundreds of other backers, although motivations for pledging to the KS evidently vary.
OK That actually makes some amount of sense to me. I was one of the people on this K&K thread you are talking about who was criticizing the approach to the marketing of Dwimmermount.
I think others have shown why this was a mistake: because it tried to elevate something like Dwimmermount, which might have merit in and of itself, to "legendary" status in the way Greyhawk, Blackmoor et al are legendary for those who like old school games but aren't checking out the OSR blogs and aren't part of that "scene", so to speak.
So if this made sense to you when you wrote that from your perspective (and I acknowledge that, I can understand where you're coming from on this), I think this was a mistake from the perspective of people who don't drink the OSR blog kool aid as you called it, and I also believe it had a part in setting expectations as to the returns of the product on the parts of the backers, not all of whom I'd wager are religiously following the OSR blogs, and set the stage for the outrage later on.
Thank you for joining the conversation in any case. It is enlightening.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583877- EGG's Castle Greyhawk Dungeons
- Arneson's Blackmoor Dungeons
- RJK's El Raja Key
- M.A.R. Barker's Tekumel Underworld
The question I have is what do the original notes for all these look like? Just how developed are they?
Based on the few snippets and photos and the First Fantasy Campaign for Blackmoor , I would have to say not very, aside from a few specific areas Bottle City, the Living Room, Isle of the Ape, etc.
Quote from: estar;583975I do think the original deadlines were overly optimistic. I know from writing the Majestic Wilderlands supplement that it take fair amount of time to get what in your head into a form usable and understandable. That it is better to set a pessimistic deadline from onset than a optimistic deadline.
This is so true. Expectations are a fickle and fragile thing. It is much better to promise less and deliver more than the opposite. Treat publication dates like engineer Scotty treats repair estimates.
Scotty: "Starfleet captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. But the secret is to give them only what they need, not what they want."
Geordi: "Yeah, well, I told the captain I'd have this analysis done in an hour."
Scotty: "How long will it really take?"
Geordi: "An hour."
Scotty: "You didn't tell him now long it would really take, did you?"
Geordi: "Of course I did."
Scotty: "Laddie, you got a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker!"
Quote from: estar;583978Why the OGL is important is that the barrier of entry to producing rulesets and product for older edition D&D is non-existent.
I think a key word is missing here: "commercial" or "for-profit" rulesets and product.
Gamers have been "producing" rulesets and product for ages without a hitch. You know this better than most people. Your Wilderlands campaign was non-commercial for years, back when you had one of the few sites to even use the word "Ghinor."
Heck, even old Dragonsfoot was hosting rulesets and product (I love this turn of phrase) for older edition D&D over a decade ago. Nobody had any ambitions to cash a check and no OGL was required.
I'm not against working game designers, by the way. I just continue to fail to see the point of the clones.
Quote from: estar;583978This means that the OSR is defined by those who do the work. That the only solution to "fixing" it, other than not buy or read anything, it for you to do your own product to show the rest of us how we are doing it wrong. ;)
Hit a nerve? Who said anything about fixing anything I'm apparently not part of and have no desire to be?
Quote from: estar;583984The question I have is what do the original notes for all these look like? Just how developed are they?
That consideration comes after the age and play of the dungeon itself. If you call your dungeon "The Legendary XXX" in an 100% serious, no sarcasm ad, this implies that the dungeon has seen some extensive play over decades and/or has been talked about for years and years to the point its reputation is ubiquitous in the hobby. To take another example brought up earlier, Rappan Athuk can make a claim to the former, since it's Bill Webb's dungeon from the 70s and has seen a lot of play, plus now, it can make a claim at the latter too, since it's seen 2 different incarnations (soon three) that were received by all accounts to great acclaim by the hobby.
Now Tavis framed this by talking about the "OSR hobby" and talked about the appropriation of the "legendary" thing in relation to the time the "OSR hobby" has been in existence, which does make some sense, but to some old school gamers it's just going to sound wrong because they're not in those circles or don't identify with the existence of an "OSR hobby" dissociated from the TSR and wider RPG hobby at all. I don't think this should come as a suprise, do you?
PS: I'm putting "OSR hobby" between quotation marks because it's something of a fascinating notion to me that I don't really agree with, or can't relate to, this notion that there is a hobby that is apart from the wider RPG hobby that's the "OSR hobby". That honestly smacks of groupthink to me and I wonder if the way Dwimmermount unfolded can be traced back to the flaws inherent to the OSR blogosphere in terms of confirmation bias (deleting comments, buddies commenting on each other's posts all the time, etc).
Quote from: samovar;583987I think a key word is missing here: "commercial" or "for-profit" rulesets and product.
Gamers have been "producing" rulesets and product for ages without a hitch. You know this better than most people. Your Wilderlands campaign was non-commercial for years, back when you had one of the few sites to even use the word "Ghinor."
Heck, even old Dragonsfoot was hosting rulesets and product (I love this turn of phrase) for older edition D&D over a decade ago. Nobody had any ambitions to cash a check and no OGL was required.
I'm not against working game designers, by the way. I just continue to fail to see the point of the clones.
You may be misinformed about the clones. The original purpose of the clones was to provide an in-print ruleset to support the production of supplemental material for classic edition gaming.
The clones that mimic TSR editions most directly; OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry whitebox, and Labyrinth Lord have always been and are still absolutely free in electronic format. Only if you want a print copy in your hands do you have to pay a dime for these.
What this does is support original supplement material such as adventure modules, to be created and sold to both players of the clone systems AND to players of the original rulesets they were based on.
Really the whole idea behind OSRIC was to be able to commercially produce brand new AD&D modules.
I for one am very happy that material 100% compatible for various old TSR games is available in the market again.
A bit later came the not-exactly clones of old school systems that were created as a for-profit enterprise (for the rules themselves) .
Quote from: Exploderwizard;583991You may be misinformed about the clones. The original purpose of the clones was to provide an in-print ruleset to support the production of supplemental material for classic edition gaming.
I thought that was what I was talking about, but in any event it's a tangent. If there's a thing called an "OSR hobby," I guess it's very different from playing "old school" D&D. That's okay. They evidently have their own pantheon of legendary classics. I wasn't even a fan of Rappan Athuk so am not the target audience here anyway.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;583991You may be misinformed about the clones. The original purpose of the clones was to provide an in-print ruleset to support the production of supplemental material for classic edition gaming.
The clones that mimic TSR editions most directly; OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry whitebox, and Labyrinth Lord have always been and are still absolutely free in electronic format. Only if you want a print copy in your hands do you have to pay a dime for these.
What this does is support original supplement material such as adventure modules, to be created and sold to both players of the clone systems AND to players of the original rulesets they were based on.
Really the whole idea behind OSRIC was to be able to commercially produce brand new AD&D modules.
I for one am very happy that material 100% compatible for various old TSR games is available in the market again.
A bit later came the not-exactly clones of old school systems that were created as a for-profit enterprise (for the rules themselves) .
I believe c&c and hackmaster predate osric by quite a bit.
I find it really weird to consider there'd be two different hobbies where in one case, one plays the TSR games and enjoys the classic modules, and the other where you'd exclusively play retroclones and stuff produced by OSR publishers.
It's kind of "wtf" to me. I use both AD&D and OSRIC at the game table. I have stuff like Anomalous Subsurface Environment next to Rappan Athuk next to Ruins of Undermountain next to Castle Zagyg next to T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil next to Bottle City on my shelf right now. Isn't it all old school, vintage gaming?
Quote from: Teazia;583996I believe c&c and hackmaster predate osric by quite a bit.
C&C and Hackmaster are not clones.
Hackmaster was produced as a parody with permission by WOTC, which is why it had to have so much goofy stuff added to the AD&D frame.
C&C is what happens when AD&D and 3E love each other very much and forget to use protection ;)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;584001C&C is what happens when AD&D and 3E love each other very much and forget to use protection ;)
and then 3e throws AD&D out and tells it to never come back, that it'll raise C&C all on its own.
Quote from: Benoist;583997I find it really weird to consider there'd be two different hobbies where in one case, one plays the TSR games and enjoys the classic modules, and the other where you'd exclusively play retroclones and stuff produced by OSR publishers.
There's a vast excluded middle there, so let's hope that's not the case.
Dating any "OSR hobby" to 2008 excludes Necromancer and the Necromancer Judges Guild renascence, Greytalk and just about all of Grodog's critical work and Philotomy's Musings, as well as (undoubtedly a coincidence) that long and fertile 2002-8 period when Gygax was interacting with the fans. Was that stuff not "OSR?" If not, where does it go?
Anyway I guess "legendary" is in the eye of the beholder.
Quote from: samovar;584004There's a vast excluded middle there, so let's hope that's not the case.
Dating any "OSR hobby" to 2008 excludes Necromancer and the Necromancer Judges Guild renascence, Greytalk and just about all of Grodog's critical work and Philotomy's Musings, as well as (undoubtedly a coincidence) that long and fertile 2002-8 period when Gygax was interacting with the fans. Was that stuff not "OSR?" If not, where does it go?
"OS". No "R" required.
Quote from: samovar;583987I think a key word is missing here: "commercial" or "for-profit" rulesets and product.
Gamers have been "producing" rulesets and product for ages without a hitch. You know this better than most people. Your Wilderlands campaign was non-commercial for years, back when you had one of the few sites to even use the word "Ghinor."
I appreciate you noticing what I have done previously with the Wilderlands. But that was just the tip of the iceberg of original material I had in my files.
Quote from: samovar;583987I'm not against working game designers, by the way. I just continue to fail to see the point of the clones.
Well for me, Swords & Wizardry was useful in the following ways.
1) It acted as a community hub for people who enjoyed playing original Dungeons & Dragons.
2) It show the limits of what I am allowed to use in commercial product at a acceptably low level of legal risk. Yes I am aware that in the US game mechanics can't be copyrighted but in the worse case you will have defend what you are doing in a court of law. With OGL derived material that risk is still not zero but it is several orders of magnitude less. Which is important as I, have a family, own a home, and have investments all of which I am not willing to risk for what is a hobby. If a person 22, have no assets, no kids, they more power to them if they want to take the risk.
3) It is useful to have a readily available commercial product that you can tell people to get (or for you to sell) when people ask about it when considering to buy your product. In my home areas, rural NW Pennsylvania, the only place where you can be certain to buy out of print older edition products is the Warzone Matrix in Cleveland where they have several dozen copies of each book/product.
4) Particular to OD&D is the fact the state of the original rules requires that the referee make several decisions as to how to interpret the rules in order to begin a campaign. While Swords & Wizardry is retro-clone of OD&D, the author freely admits and explains what decisions he made about various vague elements of OD&D.
5) Because Swords & Wizardry is a commercial product with an established audience, that meant that I was able to successfully pitch the Majestic Wilderlands proposal to Robert Bledsaw Jr, the owner of Judges Guild, and secure a license.
6) Related to 5, being able to publish a commercial product give me the drive to do the extra work to bring my notes up to a professional. Although from all the typos in MW I learned I still had more to learn. Blackmarsh went over better than that require and Scourge of the Demon Wolf is better still.
These are reason personal to me. Some share some of the reason along with reasons of their own why the retro-clones are useful.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;584005"OS". No "R" required.
I guess so. Accept no substitute!
Quote from: Benoist;583997I find it really weird to consider there'd be two different hobbies where in one case, one plays the TSR games and enjoys the classic modules, and the other where you'd exclusively play retroclones and stuff produced by OSR publishers.
Purist communities exist for all roleplaying system not just older edition D&D. However from the years I been interacting with the folks at Knight and Knaves the situation is more complicated than just saying they play with the originals only. It more like they have a very definite idea of what they consider to be X game. It possible to write new material that appeals this type of audience but you have to be aware of where the lines are.
Quote from: samovar;584004There's a vast excluded middle there, so let's hope that's not the case.
Dating any "OSR hobby" to 2008 excludes Necromancer and the Necromancer Judges Guild renascence, Greytalk and just about all of Grodog's critical work and Philotomy's Musings, as well as (undoubtedly a coincidence) that long and fertile 2002-8 period when Gygax was interacting with the fans. Was that stuff not "OSR?" If not, where does it go?
I find this useful when questions like this come up.
Horde and Horde an OSR Timeline.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar9Wm_5gI_1TdGlyZHpwRHFoU2pEMng0NkhqTlJEYmc
The timeline begins with the release of OD&DITIES #1 in August of 2000 and proceeds from there. I think his criteria for inclusion was whether the product was new material for older editions of D&D.
Quote from: estar;5840063) It is useful to have a readily available commercial product that you can tell people to get (or for you to sell) when people ask about it when considering to buy your product. In my home areas, rural NW Pennsylvania, the only place where you can be certain to buy out of print older edition products is the Warzone Matrix in Cleveland where they have several dozen copies of each book/product.
:jaw-dropping:
So these guys have a few dozen OD&D whitebox sets for sale?
Please tell me they sell online.
Quote from: estar;584010I find this useful when questions like this come up.
Horde and Horde an OSR Timeline.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar9Wm_5gI_1TdGlyZHpwRHFoU2pEMng0NkhqTlJEYmc
That goes back quite a ways! As a historian and associate of the Bledsaw family, where would you put developments like the old "Judges Guild Universal Role Playing adventure designed for use with all game systems?" Clearly "old," arguably "old school," but does it have any impact on the timeline?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;584012:jaw-dropping:
So these guys have a few dozen OD&D whitebox sets for sale?
Please tell me they sell online.
Gee sorry for the tease they have the Mentzers boxed set. The place is a cave of gaming material.
WHich reminds me of one more person reason for a retro-clones
7) Prices for OD&D Boxed Sets and supplement have skyrocketed in the past decade and it long longer viable for a causal player to pick up a copy for personal use. This situation is not currently an issues with AD&D 1st material but starting to be a problem with the Holmes and the B/X boxed sets.
Quote from: estar;584010I find this useful when questions like this come up.
Horde and Horde an OSR Timeline.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar9Wm_5gI_1TdGlyZHpwRHFoU2pEMng0NkhqTlJEYmc
The timeline begins with the release of OD&DITIES #1 in August of 2000 and proceeds from there. I think his criteria for inclusion was whether the product was new material for older editions of D&D.
Are you the keeper of that list? I'd like to point out the WGH series (2-5) which spans from 2004 through 2006.
Quote from: samovar;584015That goes back quite a ways! As a historian and associate of the Bledsaw family, where would you put developments like the old "Judges Guild Universal Role Playing adventure designed for use with all game systems?" Clearly "old," arguably "old school," but does it have any impact on the timeline?
I guess those would be of the original run like the various Mayfair products. Although I would talk to the guy and try to get Lost Man's Trail on that list as that similar type of product to what Rob Kuntz wrote. When City-State of the Sea King it should be thrown on the Horde and Horde list as well.
Basically anything here http://www.acaeum.com/ and here http://www.acaeum.com/jg/index.html would be considered part of the original set of products.
Quote from: estar;584016Gee sorry for the tease they have the Mentzers boxed set. The place is a cave of gaming material.
:(
I wish that I had ordered one from the Dungeon Hobby Shop back in 82.
Of course 10 bucks is a lot to shell out for a kid without income.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;584017Are you the keeper of that list? I'd like to point out the WGH series (2-5) which spans from 2004 through 2006.
No, Guy Fullerton is the one maintain that list. He is on Knights and Knaves.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2012/04/osr-timeline.html
I am sure he would want to know about the WGH series.
Update: Here is his blog
http://www.chaotichenchmen.com/
Quote from: samovar;584004There's a vast excluded middle there, so let's hope that's not the case.
That's exactly the point of my post. Is the middle excluded here? Tavis talks about his personal experience and how to him it came naturally to qualify Dwimmermount as 'legendary', which in itself I can understand, and yet, find objectionable for reasons mentioned before. But then you, samovar, say this: "
If there's a thing called an "OSR hobby," I guess it's very different from playing "old school" D&D. That's okay. They evidently have their own pantheon of legendary classics. I wasn't even a fan of Rappan Athuk so am not the target audience here anyway."
So howcome you feel you are a target audience of an "OSR hobby" that includes Dwimmermount, but somehow don't feel you are the target audience of Rappan Athuk? Do I misunderstand what you mean? That seems to confirm to me that you are seeing something of an "OSR hobby" out there that excludes the likes of Rappan Athuk, at least in your eyes, doesn't it? And since there's something of a pattern appearing here, between different people basically expressing the same opposition of the "OSR hobby" versus "the old guard" (perhaps you don't remember the shitstorm between the TSR alumni and Raggi/James M. but I do), I'm starting to wonder if there is something going on here.
And before you accuse me of anything, I was one of the hosts of these debates between TSR alumni and OSR dudes when I had a blog myself, and I've been consistent here on the RPG Site talking about how the OSR "isn't a movement" that it's just a collection of people who enjoy OS games and that's it, with different POVs, likes and dislikes, etc. Now I'm wondering if there's something that happened in relation to the incestuous nature of OSR blogging that made the OSR "a thing" where you're either "in" or "out".
Quote from: samovar;584004Dating any "OSR hobby" to 2008 excludes Necromancer and the Necromancer Judges Guild renascence, Greytalk and just about all of Grodog's critical work and Philotomy's Musings, as well as (undoubtedly a coincidence) that long and fertile 2002-8 period when Gygax was interacting with the fans. Was that stuff not "OSR?" If not, where does it go?
Well yes, see, I always thought that was a gray area. But as I said, I wonder if there's something of a "club" of OSR bloggers and their followers (in the blogspot sense) that is developing and considering itself to be "apart" somehow from other amateurs of OS works. Is it the case, here? Does that explain the "legendary" perception of Dwimmermount? Did it participate to the setting up of expectations which then participate to the frustration some people feel re: Dwimmermount? These are the questions puzzling me right now.
Quote from: estar;584018Basically anything here http://www.acaeum.com/ and here http://www.acaeum.com/jg/index.html would be considered part of the original set of products.
So if it's only available on secondary "collector" markets, it's original and you're not in the "OSR hobby," you're just playing D&D like normal.
If somebody's actively distributing it, it's OSR?
I was hoping you'd have more insight into the motivations behind the original Universal Format being created as a response to losing the license to the D&D stat block. To me that looks like a clear precursor to what you were saying earlier about the OGL, only with Judges Guild it was a specific license that was initially granted and then taken away, forcing them to "clone" the game to sell their wares.
But that's probably another tangent compared to the question of which circles would consider Dwimmermount and its three-year development cycle "legendary."
Skipping -- if I miss a point please alert me and I'll go back.
Quote from: Benoist;584022So howcome you feel you are a target audience of an "OSR hobby" that includes Dwimmermount, but somehow don't feel you are the target audience of Rappan Athuk? Do I misunderstand what you mean? That seems to confirm to me that you are seeing something of an "OSR hobby" out there that excludes the likes of Rappan Athuk, at least in your eyes, doesn't it?
I was the target audience for Rappan Athuk, bought it and didn't like it. Not a fan, but tastes vary. This does touch on certain aspects of "groupthink" you're exploring, however. Just because something is marketed as "old school" doesn't mean it's going to be universally well received by the community, whoever they are.
Quote from: Benoist;584022And since there's something of a pattern appearing here, between different people basically expressing the same opposition of the "OSR hobby" versus "the old guard" (perhaps you don't remember the shitstorm between the TSR alumni and Raggi/James M. but I do), I'm starting to wonder if there is something going on here.
I hear you. I'm all for everyone "discovering" the origins of this thing. Having it all "explained" by the eminences grises de jour enters a very different territory -- and that may be what's fuelling the James M backlash.
Didn't Grognardia start in 2008 or so? Before that, I -- like the infamous pundit -- considered him one of the interchangeable late White Wolf cogs, full of flavor text and railroading. Maybe he had some kind of revelation in 2008, which is where the "OSR hobby" can track its own origin.
Quote from: samovar;584023So if it's only available on secondary "collector" markets, it's original and you're not in the "OSR hobby," you're just playing D&D like normal.
If somebody's actively distributing it, it's OSR?
First off so we are clear, I use OSR as a shorthand label to refer to people publishing and playing older editions of D&D. I am pretty sure that Guy is using OSR in the same way.
It is my impression, and I have no hard data to support this, is that between 1990 and 2000 there were little to no new material created for older edition of D&D. Towards the end of that, thanks to the internet, fans of older editions started reconnecting and starting in 2000 were releasing new material for older editions. It snowballed because of the d20 craze reconnecting players back into the hobby and a size proportion of those people went looking for stuff from the older editions and started talking about.
That this combined with the rise of collectors, and games who never stopped playing resulted in the situation we have today.
So after that explanation I would consider anything published or made for an older edition of D&D that dates from 2000 or so onwards as part of the renaissance of older edition D&D. Anything prior is part of the original run of products. The stuff made in the between should be documented and hopefully recovered for folks today to use.
Now that I think about there is the Silver Anniversary Boxed set with L4 in it. Just like Exploder wished he got the OD&D boxed set, I wished I got that set.
Quote from: samovar;584023I was hoping you'd have more insight into the motivations behind the original Universal Format being created as a response to losing the license to the D&D stat block.
I don't have any particular insight. My own feeling at the time that I thought it sucked they had to do that, but understood why.
Quote from: samovar;584023To me that looks like a clear precursor to what you were saying earlier about the OGL, only with Judges Guild it was a specific license that was initially granted and then taken away, forcing them to "clone" the game to sell their wares.
They opted for a low risk way, Mayfair tried tacking closer to the original rules and got sued for it.
The importance of the OGL is that because a subset of the d20 SRD gives almost everything you need to emulate an older edition. Using it is far less riskier than any other approach.
And the downside of the universal system is that it limits your audience.
My feeling, again no hard data, is that for any given game or distinct market there is only a limited number of gamers who look outside of their chosen game system for supplemental material. I.e. willing to adapt say a GURPS Adventure for use under AD&D. There is a higher proportion between differing D&D editions. It is far more likely a AD&D 1st gamer will try to adapt a d20 adventure than they would a Harn adventure.
And when you are talking about the oldest editions (OD&D to AD&D 2nd) you are talking literally inches that separate the two so the proportion is even higher still. But it is still lower than entire set of gamers playing a particular edition.
The way do deal with that, is to write your supplement to one specific edition. With all other factor being equal appeal to all the gamers of that particular edition. It will also appeal to fans of other editions who are willing to adapt supplements made for another edition.
But a universal format supplement will only appeal to those gamers willing to adapt supplements. Thus you unnecessarily limit your appeal.
If you want a supplement to appeal to the largest possible audience right now in the OSR. Then use either B/X (Labyrinth Lord) or AD&D 1st (OSRIC). If you want to customize D&D to a setting or to a different genre then use OD&D + Greyhawk (Swords & Wizardry, Core Rules). But don't use a Universal system.
Quote from: estar;584021No, Guy Fullerton is the one maintain that list. He is on Knights and Knaves.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2012/04/osr-timeline.html
I am sure he would want to know about the WGH series.
Update: Here is his blog
http://www.chaotichenchmen.com/
He actually does know :) Heck he wanted to buy WGH2 from me to publish through CH! Didn't work, though, the module is pretty wound up in Greyhawk related stuff.
Quote from: samovar;584027Didn't Grognardia start in 2008 or so? Before that, I -- like the infamous pundit -- considered him one of the interchangeable late White Wolf cogs, full of flavor text and railroading. Maybe he had some kind of revelation in 2008, which is where the "OSR hobby" can track its own origin.
James is James, with his own quirks and traits. Nobody involved in the OSR i.e. playing or publishing older edition D&D is what they first seem. For example The Dungeon Delver is very much a hardcore advocate of AD&D and yet I had a wonderful time refereeing several D&D Next playtest sessions with him as a player.
Of course our ulterior motive was reviewing D&D Next to see whether it had an old school feel like they were proclaiming*. That ultimately we would say
"OK if you like the Old School feel of D&D Next why don't you come on over and try the real thing?"
*Yes some of D&D Next has an Old School feel, but some very much don't and the jury still out whether it will survive into the final product release. It will largely depends on the format of the product line. If they release the traditional three book core likely the old school aspect will be drowned in the presentation ofl the other options. If they go with a Basic/Advanced split with the Basic version more like older editions. Then it will probably will work out very nicely provided they fix the things we pointed out.
Quote from: estar;584031Now that I think about there is the Silver Anniversary Boxed set with L4 in it. Just like Exploder wished he got the OD&D boxed set, I wished I got that set.
It was L3. The version that was published in that set was very underwhelming IMHO compared to the awesome of L1 & L2.
Quote from: Tavis;583850The hype on the Kickstarter page is largely mine; folks at K&K Alehouse correctly perceived that this would be very uncharacteristic for a Canadian, or even someone who's lived over there.
I remember that thread - that's the one where I wrote that James Maliszewski is to old school roleplaying what Thomas Kinkade was to art.
And then the thread got closed for 'douchebaggery.' :o
Quote from: EOTB;583885Yes, but what Tavis just told us was, that in his perception of the OSR, Dwimmermount has existed since the dawn of the hobby.
Yeah, that was pretty revealing.
Quote from: Tavis;583964One of the things I hoped to get out of volunteering for the Gygax Memorial Fund was some insight into what it would take to get the original Castle Greyhawk levels published. I don't see any likely scenario in which that'd happen, but I do think that it'd be not-impossible to see some of the Blackmoor dungeon material from the "Bluemoor" notebook released either as a commercial product or an archive. Among my personal goals with Dwimmermount was to get some experience with the work that'd go into such a project, the possible market for it, and the different ways it could be presented. I believe Allan Grohe is doing all that can be done to pursue an archival release for El Raja Key, and the Tékumel Foundation makes the Jakallan Underworld probably the best bet out of any of the ones on this list to see the light of day.
Quote from: Tavis;583964As a post-2008 guy, I see Finarvyn's OD&D message board as central both as a venue for fraternity and an organizing point for projects like Fight On!
Quote from: Tavis;583964Necromancer/Frog God certainly deserve big blasts on my airhorn. The Black Monastery is also a notable example of bringing old material into print, although I haven't read it. I'd also cite Eric Mona and the Paizo crew as among the ogres whose shoulders the OSR is standing on; I don't doubt that the backstage story of publishing Maure Castle would take many beers to tell.
This mutual admiration, inside-baseball stuff is one of the biggest turn-offs about "the OSR hobby."
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584054This mutual admiration, inside-baseball stuff is one of the biggest turn-offs about "the OSR hobby."
1) So those of us interested in promoting older edition D&D shouldn't help one another?
2) If this is indeed the situation what practical limitation does it has on anybody publishing material for older editions?
3) What should the situation be? I.e. what is your ideal for older edition D&D.
I am addressing your general statement not how it relates to what happening with Dwimmermount.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;584033He actually does know :)
Yup. Your modules have been in the list since the list was first discovered, IIRC. You can search by publisher to find them.
The publishing dates for the WGH series are shown to be in 2009, because that's when they were finished, with maps and everything. (Thanks to various forums and the internet archive, it's possible to see when they were and were not complete.)
QuoteHeck he wanted to buy WGH2 from me to publish through CH! Didn't work, though, the module is pretty wound up in Greyhawk related stuff.
Not buy, and not publish. Just a clean re-layout for you to host/publish as usual, in exchange for a credit in the module.
Quote from: Benoist;584022And since there's something of a pattern appearing here, between different people basically expressing the same opposition of the "OSR hobby" versus "the old guard" (perhaps you don't remember the shitstorm between the TSR alumni and Raggi/James M. but I do), I'm starting to wonder if there is something going on here.
And before you accuse me of anything, I was one of the hosts of these debates between TSR alumni and OSR dudes when I had a blog myself, and I've been consistent here on the RPG Site talking about how the OSR "isn't a movement" that it's just a collection of people who enjoy OS games and that's it, with different POVs, likes and dislikes, etc. Now I'm wondering if there's something that happened in relation to the incestuous nature of OSR blogging that made the OSR "a thing" where you're either "in" or "out".
Well yes, see, I always thought that was a gray area. But as I said, I wonder if there's something of a "club" of OSR bloggers and their followers (in the blogspot sense) that is developing and considering itself to be "apart" somehow from other amateurs of OS works. Is it the case, here? Does that explain the "legendary" perception of Dwimmermount? Did it participate to the setting up of expectations which then participate to the frustration some people feel re: Dwimmermount? These are the questions puzzling me right now.
I think you have to go back to TARGA. Most of those in Tavis' circles were the driving force between TARGA, which basically imploded when some wanted Zac S to be brought in, and some others thought he was in poor taste. That was in 2009. James was a board member, so was Chigowiz, and others.
I don't think their expressed intent was to create a situation where some people would see the "OSR" as being a post-2008 creation, but I do think that many movers and shakers in it hoped it would become like a guild of creatives that would be successful at commercializing the OSR. It is unusual that even a handful of those in it were coming straight in from playing and even freelancing for WOTC editions or other d20 games.
So even if that association is no more, notice that its alumni still basically promote each others stuff, raise each others profiles, and - expressed intent or not - pay little attention to work of those not in those circles. When was the last time you saw Dragonsfoot material being trumpeted, or discussed in depth in those blogs? It's free! But, it's also not of their circle.
So yeah, you want to explore how a group of OSR people could perceive the OSR as beginning, oh, when they happened to step on the train? Start with TARGA. IIRC correctly there is an old 2008/2009 thread on K&KA about it.
Quote from: samovar;584027I'm all for everyone "discovering" the origins of this thing. Having it all "explained" by the eminences grises de jour enters a very different territory -- and that may be what's fuelling the James M backlash.
Or maybe its someone else? WINKY WINKY
Quote from: estar;584058So those of us interested in promoting older edition D&D shouldn't help one another?
"Promoting older edition D&D?" Is that what those quotes represent to you?
To me, they represent promoting Autaurch and Tavis Allison, not "older edition D&D."
But therein lies what I see as problematic: so much of what gets batted around "the OSR hobby" is more about personalities and 'products' than it is "promoting older edition D&D."
One of the reasons I respect Guy Fullerton and Joe Browning is the comparative lack of pretension in their approach to producing adventures and such for older editions.
Quote from: _kent_;584064Or maybe its someone else? WINKY WINKY
Why not have both? What did Mr Conley say?
Quote from: estarNobody involved in the OSR i.e. playing or publishing older edition D&D is what they first seem.
Kings in disguise, Kent. That's what this thing is, apparently.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583925The fact that while typing I got a date wrong, you know have a typo.
You're still lying. You didn't typo any dates: 8/10 is, in fact, the date of the update. 8/20 is, in fact, the date of the Richard Barton post you claim to be "the first backer who expressed something other than sunshine and lollipops".
If circumstances were different, you might be able to claim that you simply "misread" the date of Barton's post and thought that it was originally posted before the 8/10 update. But since Barton's post is actually a direct reply to one of the updates that you claim only exist because of Barton's post... Well, wow. There's really not much that can be said here. How stupid would you have to be to make that mistake?
So, instead, we get a new lie about a "typo" in an attempt to excuse your original lie.
Because, of course, you're a lying sack of shit.
QuoteI mean you use some shady crowd funding site to fund your fantasy heart breaker cut and paste 3e clone.
You appear to be insinuating that I've missed a promised release date. Is that what you're trying to say, you lying sack of shit?
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584070One of the reasons I respect Guy Fullerton and Joe Browning is the comparative lack of pretension in their approach to producing adventures and such for older editions.
Big +1 here. And I like Rob's sandbox stuff, too. Where I start to lose interest is when someone puts out rulesets to replace old-edition D&D with their shiny new thing. The point was not to write new games. It was to write material for old games.
Wasn't it?
(Note I don't have a problem with Dwimmermount here - it was written as new material for an old game. I realize it was inevitable that it would also have an "ACK version" given the partnership.)
Quote from: Tavis;583871It necessarily implies an audience for whom this stuff is new or at least worthy of explaining
*raises hand*
I see the thread's already degenerating into yet another OSR hate-fest.
To quote thedungeondelver himself: get over yourselves.
I swear to God I don't get theRPGsite's dysfunctional marriage with the OSR.
Yeah, there are some assholes in the OSR. Gasp! The horror! Well, this forum has a few of its own (one of them is even running the show) and I see not one of the OSR-haters writing off theRPGsite because of it. Also your favorite band, your favorite sports team... in fact, every branch of human activity has a lot of jerks involved and the only guaranteed jerk-free way of life is to cease all human contact.
Once again, it's all about nerds who need to feel smarter than other nerds. I don't give a flying fuck if you've been playing AD&D non-stop since 1979 and therefore feel entitled to claim that you're more "authentic" or "hardcore" or whatever label makes you feel less bad about being 40 and living in your mom's basement. However, if you're putting your money whjere your mouth is, e.g. compiling your campaign notes and publishing them, I'll look into it.
Play and support what you like. Don't play and don't support what you don't like. How hard is that?
I mean, jeez.
Quote from: EOTB;584075Where I start to lose interest is when someone puts out rulesets to replace old-edition D&D with their shiny new thing. The point was not to write new games. It was to write material for old games.
Wasn't it?
With OSRIC, yes, it was, but from the start the so-called 'retro-clones' were really simulacra; the authors all injected their own interpretations into the books rather than creating true clones. From there the knock-on was 'exploring new avenues' using
D&D -
S&W and
LL, really - as the baseline, which produced the thirty-one flavors effect.
I actually understand and even applaud this impulse. To me, 'old school' is about taking the game and making it your own. I think
EotPT and
Arduin Grimoire -
OD&D hacks, both - represent what's best about old school thinking, not counting how many character classes can dance on the head of a pin or dressing up in UW sweaters and listening to
Band on the Run on vinyl while playing.
But at their core,
LotFP and
ACKS are just collections of house rules which could be published as Arduin- or Carcosa-style supplements. Everything beyond that strikes me as pure ego. Making
Dwimmermount '
ACKS-compatible' is just damn silly, since virtually all of these 'games' are effectively interchangeable as written - or perhaps those in "the OSR hobby," with its "legendary" four year-old half-written megadungeons, simply don't realise that we used so much of what was produced back in the day interchangeably.
Now Grampa's cranky, so you kids get off my lawn before I turn the [strike]hose[/strike] .30-30 on you.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584087But at their core, LotFP and ACKS are just collections of house rules which could be published as Arduin- or Carcosa-style supplements. Everything beyond that strikes me as pure ego. Making Dwimmermount 'ACKS-compatible' is just damn silly, since virtually all of these 'games' are effectively interchangeable as written - or perhaps those in "the OSR hobby," with its "legendary" four year-old half-written megadungeons, simply don't realise that we used so much of what was produced back in the day interchangeably.
Yes, exactly. I have zero problem with the new material/stuff in any of these neo-clones. They just don't have to be games.
Quote from: The Butcher;584085Yeah, there are some assholes in the OSR. Gasp! The horror! Well, this forum has a few of its own (one of them is even running the show) and I see not one of the OSR-haters writing off theRPGsite because of it. Also your favorite band, your favorite sports team... in fact, every branch of human activity has a lot of jerks involved and the only guaranteed jerk-free way of life is to cease all human contact.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yMINX9lHOeY/SQaRlvPQ-6I/AAAAAAAACtE/vsiIYYGBll4/s320/Assholes.png)
QuoteOnce again, it's all about nerds who need to feel smarter than other nerds. I don't give a flying fuck if you've been playing AD&D non-stop since 1979 and therefore feel entitled to claim that you're more "authentic" or "hardcore" or whatever label makes you feel less bad about being 40 and living in your mom's basement. However, if you're putting your money whjere your mouth is, e.g. compiling your campaign notes and publishing them, I'll look into it.
Play and support what you like. Don't play and don't support what you don't like. How hard is that?
I mean, jeez.
What you don't realize is that bitching about RPGs online IS a hobby unto itself.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584073You appear to be insinuating that I've missed a promised release date. Is that what you're trying to say, you lying sack of shit?
Okay, I'll bite: did you take money via a crowd-funding push and have you fulfilled what you promised to people who gave you money?
Quote from: EOTB;584091Yes, exactly. I have zero problem with the new material/stuff in any of these neo-clones. They just don't have to be games.
100%. Every time a new 'game' comes out I have to ask "couldn't this have been a setting/genre supplement or something?" I mean, if ACKS had instead just been a "domain game supplement that works with OSRIC/LL/S&W/hackable thingy", wouldn't that have been better?
BV's right about the constant churning mashup, though. That's how we played in the 80s, and that's how I play now.
Quote from: VectorSigma;584116100%. Every time a new 'game' comes out I have to ask "couldn't this have been a setting/genre supplement or something?" I mean, if ACKS had instead just been a "domain game supplement that works with OSRIC/LL/S&W/hackable thingy", wouldn't that have been better?
BV's right about the constant churning mashup, though. That's how we played in the 80s, and that's how I play now.
At this point most "new clones" could be a free pdf of house rules.
Because that's what they are, house rules.
Quote from: VectorSigma;584116I mean, if ACKS had instead just been a "domain game supplement that works with OSRIC/LL/S&W/hackable thingy", wouldn't that have been better?
I've got nothing against ACKS (or any other retro-clone or variant or pseudo-clone), but I agree that I'm not in the market for clone games. When it comes to D&D, I still run either original D&D or AD&D. In fact, I'm prepping a new AD&D game that should start play within the week.
I use clone supplements though (modules, monster books, etc). For example, I'll be using an OSRIC module as the basis of the kick-off adventure in my new AD&D game. (Normally, I don't use a lot of modules, but this time I found several that seemed to be a good fit.)
As far as domain management goes, I'd be much more likely to acquire and read (and perhaps use) a "plug-in" domain management supplement, as opposed to acquiring a complete clone game that includes it and then extracting the domain management system and applying it to my own game. Not saying that the second approach wouldn't work, just that I'm not very likely to do it.
Anyway, I don't know if it would be "better" of not, but I will say that if the ACKS domain system were released as a separate supplement that talks about how to use it with your existing game, I'd definitely take a look at it.
I sometimes wish we could cut this bullshit and focus on playing, running, discussing and making stuff for games we enjoy. That's, ah, what makes Fight On! magazine or Dyson's Dodecahedron or Joesky! worth more than the parade of Blogosphere Superstars or the increasing crust of non-contributors around this segment of the hobby who are only in for the lulz and tearing down others. It would be nice if those people fucked right off to back where they originally came from.
OTOH, as TristramEvans wrote, bitching about RPGs online IS a hobby unto itself, I am engaging in it right now, so who am I to cast that stone? Goddamnit.
Quote from: Guy Fullerton;584061Yup. Your modules have been in the list since the list was first discovered, IIRC. You can search by publisher to find them.
The publishing dates for the WGH series are shown to be in 2009, because that's when they were finished, with maps and everything. (Thanks to various forums and the internet archive, it's possible to see when they were and were not complete.)
Not buy, and not publish. Just a clean re-layout for you to host/publish as usual, in exchange for a credit in the module.
Hey that's cool; re the module - it's been a long long long time so my memory of our exchange is very hazy so apologies for muddying the picture. No offense intended.
Quote from: Melan;584124I sometimes wish we could cut this bullshit and focus on playing, running, discussing and making stuff for games we enjoy.
Isn't this exactly what James and Tavis are doing?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;584038It was L3. The version that was published in that set was very underwhelming IMHO compared to the awesome of L1 & L2.
And Dragonsfoot published Lakovka's L4 - Devilspawn, for free, a few years back along with a Lendore Isles companion. I'm still astonished at the lack of publicity it got or indeed how little recognition there is of some of the other stuff they have published. Of course its all for free so the brilliant work of say John Turcotte's Where The Fallen Jarls Sleep series can't be as good as a cheap LL module available for a $2 download, to say nothing of the 'legendary' Dwimmermount.
I really like some of the OSR stuff put out there (LotFP and anything by Kevin Crawford) but its because of the quality of the game and not because it might let me identify with a commercial OSR movement.
Quote from: Melan;584124the increasing crust of non-contributors around this segment of the hobby who are only in for the lulz and tearing down others. It would be nice if those people fucked right off to back where they originally came from.
Or ... we could tell the increasing crust of contributors of absolute shit to fuck off and then we could get on with discussing only the good stuff.
Quote from: _kent_;584136Or ... we could tell the increasing crust of contributors of absolute shit to fuck off and then we could get on with discussing only the good stuff.
But then you'd be out of the conversation, wouldn't you?
Quote from: Fiasco;584134And Dragonsfoot published Lakovka's L4 - Devilspawn, for free, a few years back along with a Lendore Isles companion. I'm still astonished at the lack of publicity it got or indeed how little recognition there is of some of the other stuff they have published.
It did get publicity, but not good publicity. It was a pretty badly put together product from what I could tell.
Quote from: Melan;584124I sometimes wish we could cut this bullshit and focus on playing, running, discussing and making stuff for games we enjoy. That's, ah, what makes Fight On! magazine or Dyson's Dodecahedron or Joesky! worth more than the parade of Blogosphere Superstars or the increasing crust of non-contributors around this segment of the hobby who are only in for the lulz and tearing down others. It would be nice if those people fucked right off to back where they originally came from.
I think I'd feel rude asking for examples of the 'superstars' and 'crust'. And yet here I am.
Guess I know the sort you're talking about, though, and I suppose in theory I agree with you (as much as one can without being certain we're repulsed by the same stuff). For my part, I try to run, play, and write, and keep the navel-gazing and masturbation to a minimum.
Quote from: KenHR;584139But then you'd be out of the conversation, wouldn't you?
You are barking up the wrong tree. I have no idea who you are and have no interest in your comments, you are a non-entity to me.
Quote from: _kent_;584144You are barking up the wrong tree. I have no idea who you are and have no interest in your comments, you are a non-entity to me.
Oh, that hurts. Would it help if I was Jewish?
So why aren't you discussing the good stuff? You're a crusty contributor of shit. Even Ghost Whistler posts something useful every once in a while. You just pop up every now and again to spew bile. I've never seen anything useful come from your keyboard, not here, not on your blog, not on ydis.
Quote from: One Horse Town;583808This is turning into Desborough country.
???
Quote from: samovar;583987Nobody had any ambitions to cash a check and no OGL was required.
There are arguable copyright issues about the legality of posting pre-OGL stuff on the web. Fair Use is strong, but most fan sites fold with the first cease & desist letter. The OGL meant that you'd never get that letter.
I remember the TSR purges of fan sites back in the 90s.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584070But therein lies what I see as problematic: so much of what gets batted around "the OSR hobby" is more about personalities and 'products' than it is "promoting older edition D&D."
I suspect this is an issue with any kind of revival. I know its an issue in charity circles.
When Band XYZ plays at a charity event, they may be playing for free with full intent of promoting the charitable cause, but the exposure certainly helps sell their own albums too. And often, the media gives all the attention to the celebrity and not the charity.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584073You appear to be insinuating that I've missed a promised release date. Is that what you're trying to say, you lying sack of shit?
Yes, I believe that is what he is saying.
Quote from: The Butcher;584085I swear to God I don't get theRPGsite's dysfunctional marriage with the OSR.
It is a source of much lulz.
Quote from: The Butcher;584085I don't give a flying fuck if you've been playing AD&D non-stop since 1979
I've been playing since 1978! I won the flying fuck!
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584087- or perhaps those in "the OSR hobby," with its "legendary" four year-old half-written megadungeons, simply don't realise that we used so much of what was produced back in the day interchangeably.
Most D&Ders back in the 80s never bought anything that wasn't TSR. Those who used Arduin, JG or Mayfair stuff were a subset of the hobby.
I was always a mix & match DM, but I never cared about RAW. Today, RAW is the dominant expectation among gamers so its not surprising that they would buy new entire rulesets rather than mix & match.
Quote from: Fiasco;584134And Dragonsfoot published Lakovka's L4 - Devilspawn, for free, a few years back along with a Lendore Isles companion. I'm still astonished at the lack of publicity it got or indeed how little recognition there is of some of the other stuff they have published.
I am surprised DF hasn't repackaged their old free stuff with some more art, new layout, etc into some for nice for sale products to help fund the website.
Quote from: Benoist;583989PS: I'm putting "OSR hobby" between quotation marks because it's something of a fascinating notion to me that I don't really agree with, or can't relate to, this notion that there is a hobby that is apart from the wider RPG hobby that's the "OSR hobby". That honestly smacks of groupthink to me and I wonder if the way Dwimmermount unfolded can be traced back to the flaws inherent to the OSR blogosphere in terms of confirmation bias (deleting comments, buddies commenting on each other's posts all the time, etc).
This a Million times
Quote from: EOTB;584075Big +1 here. And I like Rob's sandbox stuff, too. Where I start to lose interest is when someone puts out rulesets to replace old-edition D&D with their shiny new thing. The point was not to write new games. It was to write material for old games.
Wasn't it?
(Note I don't have a problem with Dwimmermount here - it was written as new material for an old game. I realize it was inevitable that it would also have an "ACK version" given the partnership.)
I can't disagree with you more, obviously. The OSR that is all about re-releasing exact duplicates of old games and rehashing the same pre-1979 stuff over and over again forever is the stupid OSR I want nothing to do with; and fortunately, the majority of Old School gamers have figured that out now.
The OSR that's released Majestic Wilderlands, Stars Without Number, Mutant Future, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, ACKS, AS&SH, DCC and other such things? That's the fucking awesome OSR I want to be a part of. Thank sweet Christ that's what's on the rise now.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584073You appear to be insinuating that I've missed a promised release date. Is that what you're trying to say, you lying sack of shit?
Answer the questions:
1. Did you do a crowd funding via 8bit?
2. Did the crowd funding close on 9/11/2011?
3. Have you not hit your promise release date?
4. Did you not write this: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17467/roleplaying-games/legends-labyrinths-not-an-update (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17467/roleplaying-games/legends-labyrinths-not-an-update)?
5. Does not 8 bit state:
QuoteFees and Payments
As with other sites similar to ours, 8-Bit Funding will have a base line fee for its services. In addition to our own fees, PayPal (and any service we may use in the future) will also have its own fees. Here's the breakdown:
PayPal charges 2.9% + $0.30 per transaction. So, for example, a $20 funding will come out to $19.12.
Our own charge is 5%.
So, after both PayPal's and our fee on a $20 funding contribution you'll receive $18.16 of that.
It's a little complicated, but it's the best system available so that everybody gets paid.
Contributions are immediately deposited into your PayPal email account that you supplied when creating your project.
Thus, reading this, one can infer you took money. Is this not true?
So let me make this clear, since you are a pseudo intellectual who shows his lack of honest debate, by belittling and slander:
Did you run a crowd funding campaign, in which you took money upon its' September 11, 2011 closure, and as of September 20, 2012, not sent rewards to said campaigns backers?Now, knowing your usual tactics you are going to do the following:
1. Call me a lying sack shit.
2. Post a very incoherent malicious screed against me.
3. Deflect the question, and attempt to make me cower under a barrage of immature internet tough guy profanity.
I also know you will not answer the question.
At the end of the day, I could care less about hurting your feelings. You have proven time and time again that you are an internet tough guy who has nothing to offer but profanity laced diatribes.
Or, and a post script, it was a freaking typo. You will not cower me, no matter how many times you call me a piece of shit. I would continue this contest of wits with you, but I find you sanctimonious witless gas bag.
IRWS
Quote from: VectorSigma;584116100%. Every time a new 'game' comes out I have to ask "couldn't this have been a setting/genre supplement or something?" I mean, if ACKS had instead just been a "domain game supplement that works with OSRIC/LL/S&W/hackable thingy", wouldn't that have been better?
With full awareness that I am bending over to pick up the soap in a prison shower that has Kent in it, this RPGsite thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=21979) has a pretty good summary of why ACKS needed to go with a complete ruleset approach while An Echo, Resounding could be presented as a supplement. If you want an economic system that can be consistently extrapolated to the most basic and concrete elements, you need to be able to control all levels of the pricing and to make necessary changes to the assumptions of the system. You see the perils of not doing so in the Pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path; the need for the system to be back-compatible with the 3.5 rules for magic item creation totally sinks the attempt to make a gameable realm-management system. AER is able to be a supplement by remaining abstract; you can add it to whatever game you're playing, but at some point you have to make a conceptual leap from the native system's low-level concrete stuff to AER's high-level abstract domain management system. Whether or not this is a problem depends on you and your players. You can use ACKS as a domain system supplement for any OS system if you don't worry about whether the low-level prices for swords and the high-level wages for hiring an army's worth of swordsmiths line up precisely.
On the OSR thing, my fannish background is in science fiction, so I see two benefits to putting a label on things:
1) A book whose publisher has let the library know that they should put a rocketship sticker on the spine is one I am likely to enjoy. It's worth noting that, up until 1970 or so, SF fans read everything that came out every year; you had a monkey on your back that needed to be fed, and couldn't afford to be picky about whether your fix came from John Norman or Ursula LeGuin. The fact that there is now enough original-editions-compatible stuff released every year that people can't read it all, and wind up choosing to pay attention to some subset or another, generates some ugly factionalism (as you also see in SF history) but is really pretty sweet when you consider the alternative.
2) Once you define a genre you can talk about its history and where it's going and how individual works relate to the whole and suchlike things that are fun to bloviate about if you're into this, which I am. I'm happier now that I'm more into RPGs and less into SF, because actually playing with other people is more satisfying than critical assessment of genre. Nevertheless the reason that Games Workshop wants to be seen as a hobby rather than a game is that all of us inevitably have more time for solo pursuits like painting figures than we do to get together and play. If we're talking about an OSR hobby I think we mean the same thing, with posting instead of painting: "How do we spend our time being involved with gaming during the time we can't roust our friends to actually do it?" It's worth noting that most of our disagreement comes from the talking rather than the playing. I not infrequently have the experience of having a really good time with someone at a convention and then realizing later "hey wasn't that the guy who's been cutting me a new asshole online?"
On the actual play thing: For the first class in the new semester of my D&D afterschool program, we had two adventuring parties of kids age 8-12 entering Dwimmermount at the same time - one coming up from level 2A or 2B, one coming down from either of the surface entrances - and competing to emerge with the most treasure.
The main reason I did this with Dwimmermount was that it's partially built in Minecraft, which most of the kids are fanatics about. Nevertheless old-fashioned pen and paper roleplaying with the dungeon proved to be really fun. My group worked themselves into an enjoyable state of paranoia with the pedestals on the Path of Mavors, followed by telling each other what the visions signified about their goals in the dungeon. That was interrupted by the sound of the other group triggering the shrieker guardians, which led my party to go haring off in search of these interlopers and having a parley with kobolds who (the reaction roll said) just wanted to be left alone without all this shrieking and being expected to go kill intruders.
In this context, for me Dwimmermount hits just the right sweet spot between having elements that newbies can latch onto immediately vs. putting some meat on those bones for people who've been around this block before (like the homages to Zenopus's Tower which is what I was playing when I was 8-12).
Justin, upthread you were talking about how the trick is to do something unique with 8 skeletons. When I'm running for kids or strangers at a convention, I don't have much room to get across unique; it's more valuable to have room for a reaction roll to dictate that the kobolds do something unpredictable, while still contextualizing this within an evocative setting and backstory. Even though I'm not supposed to be part of your mutual admiration society, you having drunk the kool-aid of The Edition that Shall Not Be Named and all, I feel like you'd be able to finesse this trick and present a dungeon that's low-prep enough to run for kids while still having a through-line to implicit depths that'd be innovative for the most expert among us. Still that doesn't lessen my appreciation for dungeons that err on one side or another of this golden mean, but not so much so that they aren't fun as hell when the rubber hits the road.
I just wanted to make this post as a sign of goodwill towards IRWS. I jumped on your case earlier about your style of speech, but you're right in that since it was called out, you haven't acted any different than anyone else, so I guess I apologize for taking that discussion into something more than it ever should have been.
Quote from: Tavis;584183If you want an economic system that can be consistently extrapolated to the most basic and concrete elements, you need to be able to control all levels of the pricing and to make necessary changes to the assumptions of the system.
While I agree with you about the need to control the economic system, isn't that exactly what such a hypothetical supplement would include? Something like:
- New monetary standard
- New price lists (equipment, hirelings, upkeep, training, etc)
- Domain income per season
- Domain expenses per season
- Domain events per season
- Other misc. domain rules
- If necessary to maintain the logic/balance of the system, a formula for calculating XP from treasure. (If 1xp per 1GP won't work.)
No need for normal combat rules, spells, classes, races, monsters, et cetera in such a hypothetical supplement.
My general dissatisfaction with the standard D&D economic model (which I use, but handwave and try not to think about too much) is one of the main reasons I'd be interested in a domain management supplement, and a pop-in replacement is one of the things I'd expect from it.
EDIT: I'm not against ACKS as a complete system, by the way. I'm just thinking a separate plug-in supplement would be cool, too. (And meet my selfish/personal need better.)
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;584187My general dissatisfaction with the standard D&D economic model (which I use, but handwave and try not to think about too much)
Haven't you read Paul Vernon's economic model from White Dwarf 29 & 30? He went on to show how to develop villages, towns and cities. He is the guy who wrote
Starstone and is top drawer.
Quote from: _kent_;584189Haven't you read Paul Vernon's economic model from White Dwarf 29 & 30? He went on to show how to develop villages, towns and cities. He is the guy who wrote Starstone and is top drawer.
No, I haven't, but I'll see if I can dig it up. Thanks for the tip. (For no good reason,
White Dwarf remains an untapped resource, for me.)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;584129Hey that's cool; re the module - it's been a long long long time so my memory of our exchange is very hazy so apologies for muddying the picture. No offense intended.
None taken, and it was my fault for being so brief/terse upthread. Time to post was very short, because I was on my way out the office door to my lunch-time AD&D game :)
Quote from: Guy Fullerton;584192None taken, and it was my fault for being so brief/terse upthread. Time to post was very short, because I was on my way out the office door to my lunch-time AD&D game :)
I tried the lunch-time AD&D game but my daughter's preschool kept giving me the gimlet eye when I'd don my wizard hat and set up the DM's screen :(
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;584187While I agree with you about the need to control the economic system, isn't that exactly what such a hypothetical supplement would include? Something like:
- New monetary standard
- New price lists (equipment, hirelings, upkeep, training, etc)
- Domain income per season
- Domain expenses per season
- Domain events per season
- Other misc. domain rules
- If necessary to maintain the logic/balance of the system, a formula for calculating XP from treasure. (If 1xp per 1GP won't work.)
No need for normal combat rules, spells, classes, races, monsters, et cetera in such a hypothetical supplement.
My general dissatisfaction with the standard D&D economic model (which I use, but handwave and try not to think about too much) is one of the main reasons I'd be interested in a domain management supplement, and a pop-in replacement is one of the things I'd expect from it.
Yeah, after reading the 'must-see' linked thread, I'm not seeing it, either.
Economics touches a lot of the core D&D framework - if you look at First Fantasy Campaign as a snapshot of the primordial game, it's surprising how much of it is price lists for hiring tarns and donating to temples to gain XP, and how little is devoted to explaining what a tarn is or who these temples worship. At the point where you've pinned down all that stuff it is pretty tempting to say "let's fill in the remaining bits and call it its own thing", especially since a) monsters become economics when you assign treasure types and spells likewise when you consider spell research and b) you can assume that much of your audience is savvy enough to swap out those bits and treat what you are calling a core system as the supplement that fits their needs.
I'm also a believer in the virtues of labeling a genre, as I was saying above. I guess it's cool when Margaret Atwood writes SF without a rocketship on the spine, just like I want to support people who want to take a genre-emulation system like DCCRPG and add ACKS to it as an economic supplement. However this leads to some problems of crossed expectations, like where people want to treat hard-SF elements as metaphor because they don't have the right set of genre assumptions. Sometimes it's easier to use "we're playing ACKS" as shorthand for "if you want to hire a bunch of henchmen to scour the dungeons for you to finance your military campaign to seize the treasury of the vizier next door, that's totally OK."
As a side note, I just picked up DCCRPG to see whether the levels went to 5 like I remembered from the playtest period, or 10 as turns out to be the case. What a beautiful testament to OSR passion that book is! Goodman is the most economically rational RPG publisher I know - whenever I feel like quitting my day job to do this full-time I can count on him to sober me up - so the fact that he thought it was a good idea to pay for AWESOME ILLUSTRATION ON EVERY PAGE is a source of perpetual wonder to me.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;584193I tried the lunch-time AD&D game but my daughter's preschool kept giving me the gimlet eye when I'd don my wizard hat and set up the DM's screen :(
The campaign that got me and future ACKS co-author Greg Tito together started when I was dropping my son off at preschool and saw that one of the other parents was wearing a drunken beholder T-shirt from the Ram.
Quote from: Tavis;584197At the point where you've pinned down all that stuff it is pretty tempting to say "let's fill in the remaining bits and call it its own thing", especially since you can also assume that much of your audience is savvy enough to swap out those bits and treat what you are calling a core system as the supplement that fits their needs.
I imagine I'm savvy enough; I'm just lazy. ;)
Wait, wait wait: ACK is cuircular in its logic? How useless is that?
"Let X be € [4,7,88])"
"Here is my superiour economic analyisis: X will be either 4, 7 or 88, depending on circumstances."
What the fuck?
Also very weak argument saying D&D can't be reasonably done. It WAS already done SEVERAL times, without kiddie wheels...Magic Medieval Society: Western Europe...BECMI...AD&D DMG...Greyhawk Wars...Black Shield and lalala
as well as a VERY interesting TOME series on economy postings...probably by Frank Trollman even.
whoa the mind boggles at the weakness of intellectual boldness that seems to underly ACK!!
Still catching up on parts of the thread...
Quote from: estar;584018Although I would talk to the guy and try to get Lost Man's Trail on that list as that similar type of product to what Rob Kuntz wrote.
I *think* you're referring to the Hoard and Horde list here as "that list." If yes, then unfortunately Lost Man's Trail doesn't qualify.
I don't mean to disparage Lost Man's Trail. It's just that the Hoard and Horde list is ultimately for my own, idiosyncratic organizational purposes, and it's fairly narrow in scope. The fact that Lost Man's Trail uses the JG Universal System puts it too far away from the target set of games.
Unfair? Maybe. But it's not about fair :)
Thankfully the Hoard and Horde list is fully exportable. Anybody can grab the data from it and modify it to their heart's content, and publish a new list via google.
Quote from: RPGPundit;584172I can't disagree with you more, obviously. The OSR that is all about re-releasing exact duplicates of old games and rehashing the same pre-1979 stuff over and over again forever is the stupid OSR I want nothing to do with; and fortunately, the majority of Old School gamers have figured that out now.
The OSR that's released Majestic Wilderlands, Stars Without Number, Mutant Future, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, ACKS, AS&SH, DCC and other such things? That's the fucking awesome OSR I want to be a part of. Thank sweet Christ that's what's on the rise now.
RPGPundit
I don't know of an OSR that is all about rehashing and rereleasing the exact same anything. Are you saying that making new spells, classes, modules, etc., for AD&D using the safe harbor of OSRIC is bad, while making new spells, classes, modules, etc., for AS&SH is great? Or if Gamma World is cloned with Mutant Future that's to be praised, but B/X is cloned with LL, it isn't?
If you're talking about people who want to play OSRIC rather than people who want to publish new shit using OSRIC - that makes some sense to me. I remain somewhat perplexed by people who want to play OSRIC in lieu of AD&D. I can sort of see it based on the price of a new book(s) for AD&D and OSRIC, but even then not completely. I would rather spend a little more for the original game.
Edit - if you're talking about how "a paladin for labyrinth lord" and supplements like that were published, yeah, I can see that too. I have no personal use for those, since I don't use clones to game with.
I like many of the games you listed, but then again, many of them exceed the "OD&D with my house rules" threshold in my opinion. I'm not interested in buying a 300 page book to get your 50 pages of house rules, with the other 250 pages being the game I already own, just rotated 15 degrees off center.
And unless you plan to write stuff for AD&D and would like the convenience of having a hard copy of OSRIC for use in staying within the safe harbor, as opposed to the free PDF, I don't know why anyone would need to buy a copy of it, either.
Quote from: estar;584031First off so we are clear, I use OSR as a shorthand label to refer to people publishing and playing older editions of D&D. I am pretty sure that Guy is using OSR in the same way.
Another idiosyncratic thing: I try to avoid using the term "OSR" together with the Hoard and Horde list; the inclusion criteria (shown on the doc itself) is more deterministic than "OSR". (Edit: K&KA threads show that I wasn't consistent in that regard, sigh.)
Whatever anybody else wants to call it is cool, though.
QuoteThey opted for a low risk way, Mayfair tried tacking closer to the original rules and got sued for it.
Evidence for that? Google can turn up the primary source legal info regarding the TSR vs. Mayfair situation, and it's ultimately about trademarks, not rules closeness.
Quote from: Jacob Marley;584131Isn't this exactly what James and Tavis are doing?
I was referring to this discussion, not necessarily its subjects. I have heard good things about ACKS from reliable sources, so I suppose it is a good game - I just don't need yet another D&D nowadays (I have my own), not even with domain management rules (I have my own). And Dwimmermount, when it is released, will be a functional colour-within-the-lines megadungeon. So that is one thing.
But the other thing, I am bothered by the way people in the blogosphere are trying to build themselves into brands. And there is an odd, unpleasant feel around Kickstarters, some of whose reward mechanism have the stench of "ultra-rare gold-foil alternate-cover Batman" around them. You know what's good? Towers of Krshal (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=556479) is good. And that's a cheaply produced, dodgy PDF product written in Bad English if there ever was one.
And of course, the third thing is spectators. RPGs are not a spectator sport. It is a participatory hobby. Get in and sit down or get out and don't bother us. There are a lot of spectators, some hurling tomatoes and some daydreaming about what would happen if they were
actually actually gaming. Things were better without them too.
I'm not seeing the requirement for ACK to be its own game either in that thread. That it could be a supplement is evident in that it is acknowledged as able to be used with a minimal amount of work with other systems. Once we get to "it's tempting to fill in the other parts and make it its own game" then I speculate that's a baser motivation that drives it.
All of that said, it isn't that ACK is a game itself that I find negative, per se. It sounds like a comprehensive domain management system, and increasing granularity and cohesion to areas of the game(s) that were lightly detailed is a good thing. But the game/supplement issue is a single aspect of some of the broad conversation points brought up. I do think publishing new games ties into, and contributes to, the "group apart" aspect of the blogosphere, the groupthink and their self-promotion, at the expense of the original games.
As an example of how new games could negatively impact traditional games, I'm guessing that the number of topics directly and mainly about D&D at The Mule Abides have significantly declined recently as compared to 2009, while topics about ACK now predominate. I would guess the same will be true at the Land of NOD blog, with Blood and Treasure. Why does that leave a faint aftertaste of carpetbaggery as compared to the original intent to expand, invigorate and promote (as opposed to replace) TSR games and others of that era? It shouldn't matter - it's a game. But it's also a label.
Quote from: estar;584031My feeling, again no hard data, is that for any given game or distinct market there is only a limited number of gamers who look outside of their chosen game system for supplemental material. (...) It is far more likely a AD&D 1st gamer will try to adapt a d20 adventure than they would a Harn adventure.
Funny. I hardly ever play modules with their intended systems because I am playing with gamers who are also GMs, so they know most of the official stuff for the respective system.
I adapted many many Dungeon Magazine adventures and AD&D modules to Midgard.
I adapted Harn, MERP, Dragon Warriors, Midgard, and The Enemy Within to AD&D.
I adapted RQ adventures to Advanced Fighting Fantasy.
I adapted AFF adventures to Légendes des Contrées Oubliées.
Last weekend I GM'd an old White Dwarf AD&D adventure ("Plague from the Past") with Das Schwarze Auge (1st ed.) (btw, the first time that I ever ran that system!).
Quote from: EOTB;584091Yes, exactly. I have zero problem with the new material/stuff in any of these neo-clones. They just don't have to be games.
How much has to change before you accept it as a new game?
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;584224Funny. I hardly ever play modules with their intended systems because I am playing with gamers who are also GMs, so they know most of the official stuff for the respective system.
And it is the same way with my group, to a point*. But starting in the 90s I got involved with LARPS, Conventions and running games at Game Stores and our situation is the exception not the norm.
*The two games that my group plays with far more frequency is D&D and GURPS. For GURPS both of my friends who referee do not read or buy published adventure or any of the Pyramids. For D&D one follows the release of OSR material but mostly follows different set of authors than I do. Both have read and used many of the original TSR adventures
Quote from: Ladybird;584228How much has to change before you accept it as a new game?
I know your question was directed at EOTB. But from my experience is more of art and a feel for the material than something that can be stated with a hard and fast guideline. And to make it more complicated different segments of the OSR audience have different thresholds. The best thing to do is be up front about why you are doing what you are doing in the rulebook/supplement.
The one hard and fast rule about selling to the OSR is never ever promote what you do as a better D&D. That kill sales across all segments of the market. I am very careful to promote the Majestic Wilderlands as the way I IMPLEMENT D&D for my style and setting. That you may find something useful in it for your own campaign.
To be honest, I find ACK to be a great game, and I for one am glad it's a complete game rather than a supplement. I have so far run only a one-shot with my step kids to test it out, but it seems to me enough is different that it justifies being a complete game, and I appreciate that I can find all the rules I need in one beautiful and complete book. It's the same reason my preferred version of S&W is the fantastic S&W Complete. As for AER, I have loved (and purchased) everything Kevin has released so far, and I think AER is a great supplement and will most likely use it at some point, especially when the economic system is less of a focus so can afford to be more abstract. However, the consistency and thoroughness of ACK IMO is a feature and strength, no matter what Sett says. It's good to see you unlurking for a bit though Sett :D I often disagree with you, but I'm always entertained by you :D
Quote from: Sacrosanct;584185I just wanted to make this post as a sign of goodwill towards IRWS. I jumped on your case earlier about your style of speech, but you're right in that since it was called out, you haven't acted any different than anyone else, so I guess I apologize for taking that discussion into something more than it ever should have been.
Thank you?
I do not get bent out of shape about things. No worries.
IRWS
Quote from: _kent_;584189Haven't you read Paul Vernon's economic model from White Dwarf 29 & 30? He went on to show how to develop villages, towns and cities. He is the guy who wrote Starstone and is top drawer.
I do not agree with you ever, but now I agree with you on this. Those are two of the best articles I have read on the subject, and they still hold up to this day. Well worth hunting them down if you have not read them.
IRWS
Quote from: Melan;584211I was referring to this discussion, not necessarily its subjects. I have heard good things about ACKS from reliable sources, so I suppose it is a good game - I just don't need yet another D&D nowadays (I have my own), not even with domain management rules (I have my own). And Dwimmermount, when it is released, will be a functional colour-within-the-lines megadungeon. So that is one thing.
Interesting. Yes. This is exactly how I feel with regards to D&D Next.
Quote from: Melan;584211But the other thing, I am bothered by the way people in the blogosphere are trying to build themselves into brands. And there is an odd, unpleasant feel around Kickstarters, some of whose reward mechanism have the stench of "ultra-rare gold-foil alternate-cover Batman" around them. You know what's good? Towers of Krshal (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=556479) is good. And that's a cheaply produced, dodgy PDF product written in Bad English if there ever was one.
Everything is becoming its own brand. I heard it last week while watching a recap of college football. They were discussing Penn State and how this past year's problems have affected their brand. And by extension, how the problems with Penn State and Ohio State have affected the B1G brand. Even the coaches talk in terms of their football programs as a brands!
It's enough to make a person pull all his/her hair out.
Quote from: EOTB;584206I don't know of an OSR that is all about rehashing and rereleasing the exact same anything. Are you saying that making new spells, classes, modules, etc., for AD&D using the safe harbor of OSRIC is bad, while making new spells, classes, modules, etc., for AS&SH is great? Or if Gamma World is cloned with Mutant Future that's to be praised, but B/X is cloned with LL, it isn't?
For me, cut and paster means that instead of using the SRD for new games, that follow a different style and tone (eg. Stars Without Numbers). When I look at games such as LL and S&W, I often wonder why do you have to repeat the SRD? Simply release a supplement that allows you to emulate the style, or flavor, of D&D/AD&D you want?
Honestly, what is so groundbreaking the LotFP, but it allows Raggi to turn the SRD to 11?
IRWS
Quote from: Ladybird;584228How much has to change before you accept it as a new game?
For me, it has to be a fundamental shift away from the flavor of D&D/AD&D. Use the d20 mechanic, but do away with Level Progressions and the like. The more your rehash the SRD, and use it as an excuse to publish your own house rules, the less it is a new game.
d20 CoC could have been so much more if they did away with the level progressions and classes, and simply built it using the d20 mechanic.
IRWS
Coincidentally, Kickstarter is starting to feel the heat (http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store) from unrealised and delayed projects.
QuoteKickstarter Is Not a Store
It's hard to know how many people feel like they're shopping at a store when they're backing projects on Kickstarter, but we want to make sure that it's no one. Today we're introducing a number of changes to reinforce that Kickstarter isn't a store — it's a new way for creators and audiences to work together to make things. We'd like to walk you through these changes now.
Creators must talk about "Risks and Challenges"
Today we added a new section to the project page called "Risks and Challenges." All project creators are now required to answer the following question when creating their project:
"What are the risks and challenges this project faces, and what qualifies you to overcome them?"
We added the "Risks and Challenges" section to reinforce that creators' projects are in development. Before backing a project, people can judge both the creator's ability to complete their project as promised and whether they feel the creator is being open and honest about the risks and challenges they face.
The new section will appear below the project description of projects that launch starting today.
(etc.)
Quote from: Melan;584256Coincidentally, Kickstarter is starting to feel the heat (http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store) from unrealised and delayed projects.
Interesting!
Quote from: Benoist;584258Interesting!
Wow. Maybe I'm misreading, but I have to disagree with the multiple products thing. So you can't to a retailer option, where you offer a discount per item in the pledge amount if they order 5 or more?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;584260Wow. Maybe I'm misreading, but I have to disagree with the multiple products thing. So you can't to a retailer option, where you offer a discount per item in the pledge amount if they order 5 or more?
I think a lot of this is coming from the technology section of Kickstarter. There has been some growing anger in recent projects stemming from tiers with limited multiple purchases, and having people crowd out individual backers.
In addition there are tax implications and commerce implications if Kickstarter turns into a store. The biggest is sales tax. Kickstarter would have to start collecting sales tax if they allowed for multiple purchases, becasue one could argue they are retail and not incubator.
IRWS
That is a very good thing for Kickstarter to add the Risks and Challenges section to what you need to setup a project.
Quote from: Tavis;584183On the actual play thing: For the first class in the new semester of my D&D afterschool program, we had two adventuring parties of kids age 8-12 entering Dwimmermount at the same time (...)
The main reason I did this with Dwimmermount was that it's partially built in Minecraft, which most of the kids are fanatics about.
Whoa!
Minecraft?
(http://blondesearch.ru/img/5f/5fa/Minecraft_Middle_Earth_Moria_Showcase.jpg)
Also, I'd very much like to hear more about your afterschool program, maybe in a new thread?
Quote from: I run with scissors;584264In addition there are tax implications and commerce implications if Kickstarter turns into a store. The biggest is sales tax. Kickstarter would have to start collecting sales tax if they allowed for multiple purchases, becasue one could argue they are retail and not incubator.
I think you are right, but just saying "We are not a store" isn't going to cut it.
With rewards translated into products (even unrealized products), they are going to have a hard time explaining how they are not retailers of some kind.
Quote from: Lynn;584281I think you are right, but just saying "We are not a store" isn't going to cut it.
With rewards translated into products (even unrealized products), they are going to have a hard time explaining how they are not retailers of some kind.
Well if you look at what they put on their very own webpage, the impications are such that they view themselves as an investment platform, and not a store.
QuoteWhat's Kickstarter?
Kickstarter is a funding platform for creative projects. Everything from films, games, and music to art, design, and technology. Kickstarter is full of ambitious, innovative, and imaginative projects that are brought to life through the direct support of others.
Since our launch on April 28, 2009, over $350 million has been pledged by more than 2.5 million people, funding nearly 30,000 creative projects. If you like stats, there's lots more here.
I think "funding platform" is what they are trying to get across, and the more people treat them like a store, the more Kickstarter moves away from a funding platform.
Look at recent examples within out hobby of Kickstarter becoming a store, such as Reaper's Bone kickstarter. One could argue their Pledge Manger is a way to circumnavigate this. Plus the whole concept of bonus goals, that allow you to add on more products for extra money. The more campaigns do this, the less the platform becomes one of funding, but selling.
Hell, Adamant seems to think Kickstarter is nothing more than a pre-order hub and not a funding hub.
QuoteHow does Kickstarter work?
Thousands of creative projects are funding on Kickstarter at any given moment. Each project is independently created and crafted by the person behind it. The filmmakers, musicians, artists, and designers you see on Kickstarter have complete control and responsibility over their projects. They spend weeks building their project pages, shooting their videos, and brainstorming what rewards to offer backers. When they're ready, creators launch their project and share it with their community.
Every project creator sets their project's funding goal and deadline. If people like the project, they can pledge money to make it happen. If the project succeeds in reaching its funding goal, all backers' credit cards are charged when time expires. If the project falls short, no one is charged. Funding on Kickstarter is all-or-nothing.
Source: http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#WhatKick (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#WhatKick)
This is the key passage here, and this is what I think they should make even clearer. Nowhere do you see any mention of ordering, shopping, or online retail. Kickstarter is clear in that they are a funding platform.
The problem is that more and more, people view Kickstarter as a end run from spending money getting their projects into retail. This is not exclusive to gaming, but all projects.
Read the comment thread in the Instacube kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1084349160/instacube-a-living-canvas-for-your-instagram-photo/comments (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1084349160/instacube-a-living-canvas-for-your-instagram-photo/comments)) how this campaign is morphing into a shopping event (buy 1, no wait get 2, and now you can get 3). I think it is things like this they are cracking down on. I also think the successes of the miniature campaigns is another red flag for them.
Personally, I think Kickstarter needs to do a better job is getting across the following:
1. This is funding, not selling.
2. You should have a product either ready for production or close to production.
3. Kickstarter is not for retail stores, it is for individuals who want to be on the ground floor of a new product.
IRWS
Quote from: Ladybird;584228How much has to change before you accept it as a new game?
As Estar said, there is not a bright red line. The closer you get to a game where people kill fantasy monsters for treasure and power, the more I consider whether I think that this ruleset was an outgrowth of D&D rules.
As examples of the type of games that clear that hurdle in my mind, DCC does not make me feel like I'm playing D&D with a twist. The new Hackmaster also - while retaining almost all the tropes from D&D - does not make me feel like playing D&D, because the engine under the hood is so dissimilar.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584289I think it is things like this they are cracking down on. I also think the successes of the miniature campaigns is another red flag for them.
The Reaper Kickstarter is a good example of a project right on the line. The molds, a development cost, are expensive so it is a good fit for kickstarter. But what do you give backers as a reward? Well you give them the what the mold produces, the miniatures! When coupled with the fact that the molds are designed to create miniatures that work together in a product line and sets of related miniatures. The whole thing becomes little different than what you would do if you bought miniatures from the Reaper webstore.
So it is a bit of a catch-22, you need investment to make the molds so you can make the miniatures yet the only logical reward makes the whole experience like buying from a store.
While it would be nice to avoid it, I think the only reasonable thing in the long run is just give government the sales tax so they don't wind up making some half ass regulations that screws around with what people want to try to do with crowdfunding. In the long run, if it involves giving your backers some tangible good then be prepared to pay a sales tax.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584249For me, cut and paster means that instead of using the SRD for new games, that follow a different style and tone (eg. Stars Without Numbers). When I look at games such as LL and S&W, I often wonder why do you have to repeat the SRD? Simply release a supplement that allows you to emulate the style, or flavor, of D&D/AD&D you want?
Honestly, what is so groundbreaking the LotFP, but it allows Raggi to turn the SRD to 11?
IRWS
I don't have a problem with the original 3 clones because I see them as facilitators of new material. If I contribute to expanding more of the 1E body into OSRIC, it isn't to get people to play OSRIC - it's so that the safe harbor can be enlarged and bring in more monsters, spells, etc., from the original game that people can use in making new material.
Quote from: I run with scissors;5842891. This is funding, not selling.
2. You should have a product either ready for production or close to production.
3. Kickstarter is not for retail stores, it is for individuals who want to be on the ground floor of a new product.
IRWS
Isn't requiring things to be close to production moving closer to selling? Also would cause problems for all the computer game Kickstarters.
I think that ultimately any Kickstarter which is to produce something that will later be sold in stores is naturally going to offer copies of the thing you're funding as a reward. And therefore in the eyes of many backers, Kickstarter is (to them) essentially a store. I don't think they'll ever be able to change that perception.
The only functional difference to me as a consumer between backing a Kickstarter and paying for a pre-order is I probably have a slightly better chance of getting my money back on a pre-order if they don't deliver.
Quote from: Grymbok;584295Isn't requiring things to be close to production moving closer to selling?
Basically. A huge chunk of the kickstarters' point is to raise money to have the means of production. So it's kind of a pipedream and a business killer for kickstarter to require products that'd be close to produced. Besides, how do you judge what's close to production, aside from a case by case basis? Nah. I think it all comes back to the risk management thing on the user's part, at the end of the day.
Also, regarding ACKS as a supplement versus a full game, I think it's one thing to criticize the principle of it, and indeed, the domain management alone could have been a supplement to Labyrinth Lord, in theory, but all things considered, there is more to ACKS than just the domain management. There are lots of little tweaks, like the reworking of the resolution mechanic with target numbers, that are also worth checking out, and the whole is written in such a fashion as to be extremely clear and ergonomic. It's to put it simply one of the best written games I've seen these last few years. It is REALLY well done. So having a whole package in a comprehensive, integrated format, instead of a supplement, I can see the logic behind it now, having read the thing.
I too wished people who think about publishing their own versions of the game or house rules would think about that fundamental question before getting to work: is it really worth adding yet-another-game on the OS marketplace, or would it better serve the community by being a supplement a la Majestic Wilderlands instead? I'd like to point to this particular title here, because IMO estar did it right in that category, and I wish more people out there would take that approach.
But at the same time, games like ACKS, or DCC RPG, or AS&SH, really profit from being their own self-contained games and universes. Whether we're talking about reasons having to do with economics running throughout the game, the setting's integrity and the emulation that comes out of its blend with the rules, or some reworking of some fundamental aspect of the simulation, there are some worthy arguments to put on the table to justify building another, different game. I just wish more people actually consciously thought of that before hand, instead of defaulting to publishing their own games.
I backed a guy (not a business) who had the nifty idea getting dice made with six important mathematical symbols on them. He wanted a few for laffs but because of the production costs he could only conceive of getting them in his hand by convincing a thousand maths heads that they wanted some too. I think it is a fair example of what Kickstarter intended to promote.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;584279Whoa! Minecraft? Also, I'd very much like to hear more about your afterschool program, maybe in a new thread?
Yeah, although that image is using a texture pack to look particularly cool - vanilla is more like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2rDbRUDkds). Building Dwimmermount on a Minecraft server was a stretch goal for the Kickstarter. I'll start a thread on the afterschool program soon; you can read some of it here (http://muleabides.wordpress.com/?s=afterschool) although we've been pretty loose in using that tag, and we're constantly revising our approach to the class as we get more experience.
Quote from: estar;584292The Reaper Kickstarter is a good example of a project right on the line. The molds, a development cost, are expensive so it is a good fit for kickstarter. But what do you give backers as a reward? Well you give them the what the mold produces, the miniatures! When coupled with the fact that the molds are designed to create miniatures that work together in a product line and sets of related miniatures. The whole thing becomes little different than what you would do if you bought miniatures from the Reaper webstore.
I agree with this part, and no way am I implying that Reaper did anything wrong. I just think, from Kickstarter's perspective, things like the Pledge Manager, seem to go against the intent of the site. That intent is to bring indivduals to projects that they can support.
Quote from: estar;584292So it is a bit of a catch-22, you need investment to make the molds so you can make the miniatures yet the only logical reward makes the whole experience like buying from a store.
While it would be nice to avoid it, I think the only reasonable thing in the long run is just give government the sales tax so they don't wind up making some half ass regulations that screws around with what people want to try to do with crowdfunding. In the long run, if it involves giving your backers some tangible good then be prepared to pay a sales tax.
I think sales tax is one thing they are trying to avoid, I also also think they are trying to avoid the risk of becoming a retail commerce. By putting the risk on the individual backers, and campaign starters, Kickstarter is not on the hook for anything that goes wrong.
Quote from: Grymbok;584295Isn't requiring things to be close to production moving closer to selling? Also would cause problems for all the computer game Kickstarters.
I think that ultimately any Kickstarter which is to produce something that will later be sold in stores is naturally going to offer copies of the thing you're funding as a reward. And therefore in the eyes of many backers, Kickstarter is (to them) essentially a store. I don't think they'll ever be able to change that perception.
The only functional difference to me as a consumer between backing a Kickstarter and paying for a pre-order is I probably have a slightly better chance of getting my money back on a pre-order if they don't deliver.
For me looking for initial funding via Kickstarter allows you to go into production, and allow you to take the product from beyond it's initial release. The Instacube is a good example. They have raised close to $600,000. How much of that money will allow them to produce more unit above the backer levels, and make an attempt to move it mass market.
Reaper is another example. That initial funding, is allowing to ramp up Bones production, and make a much deeper push of the line.
I guess for me, if you are going to do a Kickstarter, you should do it to get the funding to get you pass the last mile (e.g.. production). I think the risk some run is when they go to Kickstarter with an idea, and no proof of concept to show for it.
Quote from: Benoist;584305Basically. A huge chunk of the kickstarters' point is to raise money to have the means of production. So it's kind of a pipedream and a business killer for kickstarter to require products that'd be close to produced. Besides, how do you judge what's close to production, aside from a case by case basis? Nah. I think it all comes back to the risk management thing on the user's part, at the end of the day.
See, I think all of this is proof positive that Kickstarter has done a lousy job of educating and branding what they are.
IRWS
Quote from: Benoist;584258Interesting!
Quote from: estar;584278That is a very good thing for Kickstarter to add the Risks and Challenges section to what you need to setup a project.
In relation to RPGs, I don't think it will have much impact. Using Dwimmermount as an example, I don't think that section would have made James come forward and say that he wasn't as done, because he had previously said he was.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584289Hell, Adamant seems to think Kickstarter is nothing more than a pre-order hub and not a funding hub.
...
1. This is funding, not selling. (it is (pre)selling - EOTB)
2. You should have a product either ready for production or close to production. (This is what makes it (pre)selling - EOTB)
3. Kickstarter is not for retail stores, it is for individuals who want to be on the ground floor of a new product.
IRWS
I still don't get why some people think that putting an RPG product on KS means that there is a difference between that and putting up a pre-order on your own website. What is the difference? What part of the process in creating the product and delivering it changes?
This is not a new widget with a thousand variables in R&D, manufacturing and packaging that could fuck it up. This is rolling some dice and writing. You watch, there is essentially going to be a cut-and-paste "Risk and Challenges" section:
1) The artists could flake
2) The printer could deliver sub-par books
3) My computer and backup could simultaneously crash and I loose all the data
4) I could have health problems
And I'm sure I'm forgetting about a few more. But it's going to be, by and large, a template that every RPG product follows, because bringing an RPG product to market is not an unknown process.
Another reason why for the RPG biz, Kickstarter is really a pre-order, is that if KS' fees were 40% instead of 10% (i.e., more than lulu) no one would use it because KS is
completely unnecessary except as a convenience and low-cost alternative to the distribution channels that already exist.
Quote from: EOTB;584294I don't have a problem with the original 3 clones because I see them as facilitators of new material. If I contribute to expanding more of the 1E body into OSRIC, it isn't to get people to play OSRIC - it's so that the safe harbor can be enlarged and bring in more monsters, spells, etc., from the original game that people can use in making new material.
I do not per say, but I just see them as reinventing the wheel. For me, I think I want games that have something new to say, if you will, then just restating what has come before.
IRWS
Quote from: Benoist;584309Also, regarding ACKS as a supplement versus a full game, I think it's one thing to criticize the principle of it, and indeed, the domain management alone could have been a supplement to Labyrinth Lord, in theory, but all things considered, there is more to ACKS than just the domain management. There are lots of little tweaks, like the reworking of the resolution mechanic with target numbers, that are also worth checking out, and the whole is written in such a fashion as to be extremely clear and ergonomic. It's to put it simply one of the best written games I've these last few years. It is REALLY well done. So having a whole package in a comprehensive, integrated format, instead of a supplement, I can see the logic behind it now, having read the thing.
I too wished people who think about publishing their own versions of the game or house rules would think about that fundamental question before getting to work: is it really worth adding yet-another-game on the OS marketplace, or would it better serve the community by being a supplement a la Majestic Wilderlands instead? I'd like to point to this particular title here, because IMO estar did it right in that category, and I wished more people out there would take that approach.
But at the same time, games like ACKS, or DCC RPG, or AS&SH, really profit from being their own self-contained games and universes. Whether we're talking about reasons having to do with economics running throughout the game, the setting's integrity and the emulation that comes out of its blend with the rules, or some reworking of some fundamental aspect of the simulation, there are some worthy arguments to put on the table to justify building another, different game. I just wish more people actually consciously thought of that before hand, instead of defaulting to publishing their own games.
I agree, and as usual you said it much better than I did Benny. Also, as an aside, any D&D fan who has not checked out Majestic Wilderlands really needs to... it is, IMO, one of the best setting/supps for D&D and clones ever produced, and has so much material that can be used whether one chooses to run the Wilderlands or not that I can't imagine anyone not being to find something of value in it.
Quote from: EOTB;584325I still don't get why some people think that putting an RPG product on KS means that there is a difference between that and putting up a pre-order on your own website. What is the difference? What part of the process in creating the product and delivering it changes?
It is not, per say, but from Kickstarter's presepctive, they are not a selling tool, but a funding tool. It is a means to get funding from interested parties, and in return they get on the ground floor of a product.
The funder assumes the risk by giving their money to someone, and in return they hopefully get something in return. For a pre-order, the risk is on the supplier. They have to fund the creation, and then hopefully, they get enough preorder to sell more.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584326I do not per say, but I just see them as reinventing the wheel. For me, I think I want games that have something new to say, if you will, then just restating what has come before.
IRWS
If WOTC ends up reprinting OD&D, and B/X like they did with the AD&D books then you will be right on.
They were developed and published at a time when that seemed like a far-fetched dream. The clones are there to make people can keep enjoying new materials for their old style games no matter what WOTC or another owner of the D&D IP decide to do.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584330It is not, per say, but from Kickstarter's presepctive, they are not a selling tool, but a funding tool. It is a means to get funding from interested parties, and in return they get on the ground floor of a product.
The funder assumes the risk by giving their money to someone, and in return they hopefully get something in return. For a pre-order, the risk is on the supplier. They have to fund the creation, and then hopefully, they get enough preorder to sell more.
IRWS
Right - so people who use kickstarters for their RPG games want to artificially shift risk on to us as opposed to them, just by virtue of what the header on the website is that takes our money.
See, if you said this with clarity on your kickstarter - "there's no critical reason for me to use kickstarter except that I would prefer to quit my job while I write this, I have lower fees per unit this way and also I don't want any legal liability if I flake", few buyer-backers would pledge to it. Right now, RPGs on kickstarter are raging because buyer-backers still see them as pre-orders and seller-creators do not discourage that feeling because they don't want to throw cold water on their project's hype. But as more projects fail, and this reasoning of "the risk was on you - I"m just a creative with a dream" is retreated to, the big money days of kickstarter will be over for RPGs.
Whereas if Sellers simply accepted what people saw it for, and put starting the kickstarter at the point in development when all development that was solo, and free except for time spent, was finished, so that chance of failure was vanishingly small, the chance of kicking the golden goose in the ass would go down.
Quote from: EOTB;584340Whereas if Sellers simply accepted what people saw it for, and put starting the kickstarter at the point in development when all development that was solo, and free except for time spent, was finished, so that chance of failure was vanishingly small, the chance of kicking the golden goose in the ass would go down.
We agree.
Of the inventors I know, and I know some, they do not quit their day job to produce the greatest widget known to man kind. It is something they work on in their spare time, and when they feel they have the widget ready, do they seek a means to produce and sell it.
IRWS
A few newbies have cropped up in this thread - so welcome!
Quote from: Benoist;584309Also, regarding ACKS as a supplement versus a full game, I think it's one thing to criticize the principle of it, and indeed, the domain management alone could have been a supplement to Labyrinth Lord, in theory, but all things considered, there is more to ACKS than just the domain management. There are lots of little tweaks, like the reworking of the resolution mechanic with target numbers, that are also worth checking out, and the whole is written in such a fashion as to be extremely clear and ergonomic. It's to put it simply one of the best written games I've these last few years. It is REALLY well done. So having a whole package in a comprehensive, integrated format, instead of a supplement, I can see the logic behind it now, having read the thing.
I too wished people who think about publishing their own versions of the game or house rules would think about that fundamental question before getting to work: is it really worth adding yet-another-game on the OS marketplace, or would it better serve the community by being a supplement a la Majestic Wilderlands instead? I'd like to point to this particular title here, because IMO estar did it right in that category, and I wished more people out there would take that approach.
But at the same time, games like ACKS, or DCC RPG, or AS&SH, really profit from being their own self-contained games and universes. Whether we're talking about reasons having to do with economics running throughout the game, the setting's integrity and the emulation that comes out of its blend with the rules, or some reworking of some fundamental aspect of the simulation, there are some worthy arguments to put on the table to justify building another, different game. I just wish more people actually consciously thought of that before hand, instead of defaulting to publishing their own games.
You know, after a night's sleep I care a lot less this morning. I think this thread was just a personal flash point for me with the whole "OSR didn't start until 2009" thing. D&D Blogs don't talk about D&D, and wonder why their traffic is dropping. There's a new neo-clone a month - Tenkar can't even keep up with them anymore. I think he's going to have to invent new words to explain why each of them is amazing, great and new.
Yeah, there's a whole section of OSR that think they started it, and whose goal is now to steer people toward their own new games and away from the original games supported by new product. I think that's fucked up on many levels - simply by virtue of the appellation the authors apply to themselves, not intrinsically because I don't think the old games should be competed with - but I'll live.
Bottom line, all my personal expectations for the OSR were met and exceeded with the reprints. So if we're going to evolve into a heartbreaker-of-the-month club, I don't have to pay any dues to that.
Quote from: EOTB;584340Right - so people who use kickstarters for their RPG games want to artificially shift risk on to us as opposed to them, just by virtue of what the header on the website is that takes our money.
Wow, some thread.
At this point I don't know how Kickstarter justifies its cut. Projects are legally prohibited from characterizing themselves as "investments," so it's not an angel capital introduction service. Backers pay for pre-defined "rewards," so it's not really about running non-profit fund-raising campaigns, either.
And now it's not about pre-orders either. (Maybe they're getting nervous about their obligations to manage retail transactions as others have pointed out.)
The problem I have is that if the project lead has already done the work of getting to the "prototype" (or in our case, a solid draft), you can tell the backers whatever it takes to blow wind up their skirts but it boils down to a pre-order.
You are paying in advance to prove to the manufacturer that sufficient retail demand exists to push the button and actually make the thing. You are pre-ordering.
If this was traditional publishing, those advance orders would determine the size of the print run. In today's Kickstarter, I don't know what they're for.
Quote from: EOTB;584340See, if you said this with clarity on your kickstarter - "there's no critical reason for me to use kickstarter except that I would prefer to quit my job while I write this, I have lower fees per unit this way and also I don't want any legal liability if I flake", few buyer-backers would pledge to it.
Well, of course not. Tell backers they're getting a vicarious thrill of standing close to the creative fire and midwiving something that would otherwise never get a chance to exist in this big wide world, and they'll trample each other to give you the cash. Give them a sound business proposition, and crickets.
Quote from: Benoist;584309or would it better serve the community by being a supplement a la Majestic Wilderlands instead? I'd like to point to this particular title here, because IMO estar did it right in that category, and I wished more people out there would take that approach.
Not to say I wasn't tempted to publish a complete ruleset. I may do so for one reason; so that when go to a convention and sell on the point, or go to a game store and sell my book I have a rulebook to sue the supplement with. To date and for the foreseeable future that hasn't been important enough reason in light of the other things I want to accomplish.
Quote from: EOTB;584351Yeah, there's a whole section of OSR that think they started it, and whose goal is now to steer people toward their own new games and away from the original games supported by new product.
Name names, don't cloud your criticisms in vague insinuations.
Quote from: Benoist;584309I too wished people who think about publishing their own versions of the game or house rules would think about that fundamental question before getting to work: is it really worth adding yet-another-game on the OS marketplace, or would it better serve the community by being a supplement a la Majestic Wilderlands instead? I'd like to point to this particular title here, because IMO estar did it right in that category, and I wished more people out there would take that approach.
Let me talk about Microlite74 for a bit here. When I started to work on Microlite74, Swords & Wizardry either had not been announced or had just been announced, there was no 0e "alike" available and WOTC had just pulled the PDFs. Microlite74 was not ever intended to be for long term play, I assumed it would be used by people who were used to WOTC/"New School" D&D to try old school play using the 3.x rules framework of Microlite20. Heck, Microlite74 1.0 wasn't even fully playtested beyond 3 or 4th level as I assumed people would either lose interest in "old school" play or move on to a more complete old school game by long before they reached mid-level play.
It turned out I was wrong. People liked Microlite74 and kept playing it. Unfortunately, as soon as characters reached mid-level, the M20 system (with high combat bonuses) no longer resembled 0e. A couple of months of system revision and playtesting at higher levels, and Microlite74 1.1 was released. It proved very popular, with about 10K downloads in the first 6 months -- and people were playing it long term, using it for pickup games at cons, etc. This was all in 2008.
Microlite74 2.0 was designed after Swords & Wizardry was released. Many spells and monsters were rewritten to make them more compatible with S&W. These would make it easier for M74 players to move to S&W if they wanted to and make it easy to use S&W for more complete spell and monster write-ups. M74 2.0 came out about 8 months after M74's initial release. M74 continued to be far more popular than I had expected. I published two supplements. The first with lots of optional rules and the second with the additional spells, classes, and monsters from the 0e supplements. This was mainly in 2009 (and early 2010).
2010 also saw the publication of Microlite75. This was M74 with most of the house rules I used in 0e in the late 1970s (converted to the M74 "system"). It was mainly for my use as my players preferred M74 to 0e. However, I released it for others to use as well. It was not as popular as M74 -- which was what I expected for the first time.
In 2011, with Microlite74 still popular, I reorganized and rewrote the game into three "versions" of as third edition. Microlite74 Basic emulated 0e brown box/white box. Microlite74 Standard emulated 0e with the supplements, and Microlite74 Extended added my house rules to M74 Standard. A Companion volume with lots of optional rules was also released. Again, thousands of copies were downloaded and people were enjoying the game.
I received a number of requests to provide a S&W version of my house rules. I had trouble understanding why this was needed as M74 and S&W were both versions of 0e, but I was willing to provide S&W supplement with the house rules. However, that wasn't want people wanted. The minute I announced the project, I started getting emails asking me to instead produce a complete S&W variant with my house rules blended into the S&W text. I balked because I thought this would be more work that it was worth and dropped the project when it turned out that the majority of people really did want a complete variant S&W game instead of a supplement.
This year I've been working on a limited to six levels "swords & sorcery" variant of Microlite74. It will be out in a week or two now -- all I have to do is lay it out and make the release PDF. My next project will be a "complete" non-lite version of Microlite74 Extended (codenamed Microlite74 Plus) with complete spell, monster, and treasure descriptions, more beginner-friendly rules text with examples, domain rules, etc.
Some people wonder why I continue to work on Microlite74 games when there are so many alternatives that would work just as well for most people. The answer is simple, I keep publishing them because people want to play them -- and I enjoy working on them. They are all free so it certainly isn't for the money. Occasionally, I hear from people who think I should drop them because there are too many similar games out there, but I don't see that as a problem. And if it is a problem, it's certainly not my problem.
I wonder why RPG companies haven't adopted a system similar to the P500 pre-ordering system pioneered by GMT and used by a number of wargaming companies now.
Pre-orders under that system are a pledge on the part of customers to purchase an item at a discount when it has finished development and is printed and ready to ship. They are not charged until that happens.
Games are not greenlit for production until they receive a number of pre-orders that will ensure that the company can cover its costs for print run. Initially, the bar was set at 500 pre-orders (thus the P500 moniker) but it varies now depending on the game.
This does mean that some potentially interesting games languish for years in pre-order hell, and it puts a lot of the onus on designers and developers to promote a game before it makes the cut.
It would cut out KS as a middleman and wouldn't charge customers until the projects are done.
Quote from: estar;584358things I want to accomplish.
Eh? Nothing that comes from gaming is an
accomplishment unless you think getting out of bed is an accomplishment. The vocabulary of 'projects' and 'accomplishments' associated with rpgs is self-aggrandising fuckwittery.
Quote from: RandallS;584361Some people wonder why I continue to work on Microlite74 games when there are so many alternatives that would work just as well for most people. The answer is simple, I keep publishing them because people want to play them -- and I enjoy working on them. They are all free so it certainly isn't for the money. Occasionally, I hear from people who think I should drop them because there are too many similar games out there, but I don't see that as a problem. And if it is a problem, it's certainly not my problem.
I think Microlite old-school is a great idea. Carry on, indeed.
Quote from: econobus;584355If this was traditional publishing, those advance orders would determine the size of the print run. In today's Kickstarter, I don't know what they're for.
I know from elsewhere this is confusing for people so let's parse this out in baby steps. Most of these are technical definitions paraphrased. I am not making these up.
INVESTMENT. People pay for a share of the profits if things do well and accept a share of the financial risk if things do bad. Strict disclosure and suitability rules apply.
PATRONAGE. People throw money to show their love. Traditionally no strings are attached, but smart creative will make sure to heed "suggestions." This has the same status as buying your mom a birthday sweater, and in theory extremely wealthy gamers need to worry about "gift tax."
CHARITY. People throw money to make the world better. Strings may or may not be attached. Donations to registered non-profit organizations are worth a tax break.
RETAIL. People pay for a thing. That thing may or may not be ready yet. The manufacturer may or may not use the funds to pay production costs. If the buyer doesn't get the thing as specified, the social contract mandates a refund. If the manufacturer fails to refund the money, bad manufacturer! Of course, the buyer can always laugh it off or blame himself.
KICKSTARTER. People throw money for a thing that doesn't exist yet. If enough do so, the thing supposedly gets made and they get that thing plus any secondary rewards. They do not get a share of the profits. Technically money is being exchanged for a thing, so no "gift tax" or charitable deduction would apply. If you do not get the thing, you apparently deserve a refund, but the rules are vague. Of course, the "backer" can always laugh it off or blame himself for the project lead's failure to deliver.
Why this gets me going is because every time Kickstarter carves liability off itself, it becomes a worse proposition for the backer no matter what his motive for backing the project may be.
If I want to INVEST, I'm cussed. Welcome to all the risk and none of the rewards!
If I want to DONATE, my money can do 15% to 40% more good if it goes to an actual charity instead of these rpg hoboes.
If I want to PATRONIZE, my money can still do 5% to 10% more good if I just write my favorite creative a check.
If I want to BUY...hey! Kickstarter says it's not about buying any more, never mind.
Quote from: _kent_;584363Eh? Nothing that comes from gaming is an accomplishment unless you think getting out of bed is an accomplishment. The vocabulary of 'projects' and 'accomplishments' associated with rpgs is self-aggrandising fuckwittery.
You must be from an alternate timeline with a different english dictionary. The one here says
QuoteNoun:
1. Something that has been achieved successfully.
2. The successful achievement of a task.
Your criticism is ironic considering your most recent blog post is about your
accomplishment in getting the presentation right on your Cavern Below map.
http://somekingskent.blogspot.com/2012/08/vectorised-pdf-of-caverns-below-abode.html
Quote from: econobus;584366I know from elsewhere this is confusing for people so let's parse this out in baby steps. Most of these are technical definitions paraphrased. I am not making these up.
INVESTMENT. People pay for a share of the profits if things do well and accept a share of the financial risk if things do bad. Strict disclosure and suitability rules apply.
PATRONAGE. People throw money to show their love. Traditionally no strings are attached, but smart creative will make sure to heed "suggestions." This has the same status as buying your mom a birthday sweater, and in theory extremely wealthy gamers need to worry about "gift tax."
CHARITY. People throw money to make the world better. Strings may or may not be attached. Donations to registered non-profit organizations are worth a tax break.
RETAIL. People pay for a thing. That thing may or may not be ready yet. The manufacturer may or may not use the funds to pay production costs. If the buyer doesn't get the thing as specified, the social contract mandates a refund. If the manufacturer fails to refund the money, bad manufacturer! Of course, the buyer can always laugh it off or blame himself.
KICKSTARTER. People throw money for a thing that doesn't exist yet. If enough do so, the thing supposedly gets made and they get that thing plus any secondary rewards. They do not get a share of the profits. Technically money is being exchanged for a thing, so no "gift tax" or charitable deduction would apply. If you do not get the thing, you apparently deserve a refund, but the rules are vague. Of course, the "backer" can always laugh it off or blame himself for the project lead's failure to deliver.
Why this gets me going is because every time Kickstarter carves liability off itself, it becomes a worse proposition for the backer no matter what his motive for backing the project may be.
If I want to INVEST, I'm cussed. Welcome to all the risk and none of the rewards!
If I want to DONATE, my money can do 15% to 40% more good if it goes to an actual charity instead of these rpg hoboes.
If I want to PATRONIZE, my money can still do 5% to 10% more good if I just write my favorite creative a check.
If I want to BUY...hey! Kickstarter says it's not about buying any more, never mind.
Why are you posting with a different account, samovar? Sockpuppet accounts are not allowed on this board.
Quote from: RandallS;584361Some people wonder why I continue to work on Microlite74 games when there are so many alternatives that would work just as well for most people. The answer is simple, I keep publishing them because people want to play them -- and I enjoy working on them. [/QUOTEPretty much sums it up for me. Most of us, do the things we do because what we did was well-received or sold well. Then we follow up on that not only on direct sequels but related work.
Quote from: estar;584360Name names, don't cloud your criticisms in vague insinuations.
I'm not trying to be vague; the line about "thinking they started it" is a reference to Tavis saying that Dwimmermount was ancient because, since the OSR is a 3 year old hobby, DM existed at the dawn of that hobby.
Ergo, you don't think the hobby is 3 years old unless you have a "circle of friends" (again, quote from Tavis) that is somewhat self-absorbed into only their own blogosphere-squad or whatever you want to call it. Moreover, if you also say that 2008/9 is when you started to game this way, and (building on the previous) you think the OSR started three years ago because Dwimmermount has existed as long as the OSR has and is legendary, and the discussion between that circle of friends is so stunted that it is not inclusive of Dragonsfoot, or the work that everybody put into OSRIC (of which I am
not one - it was recently published when I found K&KA), than it follows that what that person considers the "OSR" is what they and their friends put together 3 years ago. I.e., "they started it". You can't include the contributions that came before and still think it's 3 years old - those positions are mutually incompatible.
So to me, connecting the dots a bit, I wonder if Tavis is of the consideration that TARGA was the start of the OSR. But this last part is really kind of taking a shot in the dark - it just matches up quite neatly with his timeline.
As far as game authors go, I admit to making personal exceptions for no reason other than that I like them. I would, for instance, love to see AS&SH outsell D&D5 because Ghul was shafted so badly in the Castle Zygag deal, and I love how he put his game together. So I'll cop to that. But there is an undefined practical limit in how many almost-old-D&D games that the OSR can absorb and maintain any sense of identity. At some point if it's 400 different games with 25 players each, you lack a critical mass and the common language becomes dialects only partially compatible.
Edit - I also recognize that there exists a market for all these clones. People buy and/or download them. I suspect that the market penetration is actually greater with the WotC edition crowd, simply because I see far more discussion about ACK or Microlite 74 on the big purple than I do on DF or other old-game sites, but I acknowledge that those $ count as well.
Quote from: estar;584367You must be from an alternate timeline with a different english dictionary. The one here says
Your criticism is ironic considering your most recent blog post is about your accomplishment in getting the presentation right on your Cavern Below map.
http://somekingskent.blogspot.com/2012/08/vectorised-pdf-of-caverns-below-abode.html
I never used the word
accomplishment. There are nuances to the word of perfection and attainment but like I said if you consider getting out of bed an accomplishment then I can't argue with you. (You may want to consider using the OED rather than freedictionary.com)
My point was that your importance, as a group, and 'achievements' might be more accurately reflected through words and phrases such as 'unending struggle', 'unrewarding toil', 'drudgery', 'pointless exercise', 'wearisome endeavour', 'vacuous mimicry', 'monotonous repetition', 'suicidal compunction', 'vomitous nostalgic obsession' ... and such like ... and if you adopted my proposal naive gamers would not be fooled by fiascos like Dwimmermount and your rubbish.
Quote from: estar;584358Not to say I wasn't tempted to publish a complete ruleset. I may do so for one reason; so that when go to a convention and sell on the point, or go to a game store and sell my book I have a rulebook to sue the supplement with. To date and for the foreseeable future that hasn't been important enough reason in light of the other things I want to accomplish.
I see this line of thought all the time.
Doesn't this only work if the FLGS thinks that the rule system is a widely played one?
I mean, if all the OSR authors put out a rulebook, and every author went to the game store on the same day to convince the owner to stock the 25 different rule systems + supps to go along with them, is any FLGS going to say "wow, I never would have stocked these supplements, but since it's a game line I most certainly will! Put them over there with the 15 game lines that came in last week."
I.e., doesn't this "I'll sell more supps with a rule book" depend on 1 or 2 "OSR rule systems" eating the rest, and becoming dominant?
Quote from: EOTB;584373I'm not trying to be vague; the line about "thinking they started it" is a reference to Tavis saying that Dwimmermount was ancient because, since the OSR is a 3 year old hobby, DM existed at the dawn of that hobby.
Thanks for taking the time for clarifying your answer.
And as an aside, I did some research into when the term "Old School Renaissance" in regards to the playing of older edition D&D was coined. The earliest reference I can document is found on Dragonsfoot
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11962
Interestingly the poster was anonymous. 2007 was the year where it exploded into widespread use. Expeditous Retreat Press and Dan Proctor with his OSR Lulu store front had a lot to do with popularizing the term.
Quote from: EOTB;584373So I'll cop to that. But there is an undefined practical limit in how many almost-old-D&D games that the OSR can absorb and maintain any sense of identity. At some point if it's 400 different games with 25 players each, you lack a critical mass and the common language becomes dialects only partially compatible.
You bring up an interesting point. Please don't take this critically, but think about what you are saying. Why are there so many games? Because the OSR is largely founded on the freedom granted by the Open Game License. The consequence of this freedom is that there are no gatekeeper to allow somebody to use the older edition rules.
Then compounding this is the separate development of print on demand and internet communications. Now the barrier to actually selling something is extremely low, in fact no barrier at all to the determined hobbyist.
What we are seeing is a consequence of these two factors compounding the effect of the other in relation to older edition publishing and play.
Any alternative involves gatekeepers of some type. Is this what you want? Somebody else to say "No your books is redundant make it different or you can't publish it." If you had a Ring of Three Wishes would you want that power for yourself? Or anybody else to have it for that matter?
For me, I don't want that power, nor I am willing to give that power to anybody else. My solution is to make even easier for people to write, publish, and communicate.
My faith is the belief that my fellow gamers and customers can sort it out for themselves. And I have concrete reasons for that belief if you want to talk about it further. As well as reasons why the existence of 400 rule sets is not going to be of consequence.
Quote from: estar;584378Any alternative involves gatekeepers of some type. Is this what you want? Somebody else to say "No your books is redundant make it different or you can't publish it." If you had a Ring of Three Wishes would you want that power for yourself? Or anybody else to have it for that matter? For me, I don't want that power
I definitely want that power. it sounds awesome!!
Quote from: estar;584378nor I am willing to give that power to anybody else. My solution is to make even easier for people to write, publish, and communicate.
I am willing to fight you for that power and fight against making it easier for retards to publish crap so that we avoid even lengthier discussions about what is great in the history of published material.
==
By the way Estar in your avatar you look like a Wool-Man my sister once made for her doll-house before she lost interest in him and fed him to our dog Biffo.
Quote from: EOTB;584291As Estar said, there is not a bright red line. The closer you get to a game where people kill fantasy monsters for treasure and power, the more I consider whether I think that this ruleset was an outgrowth of D&D rules.
Cool. Benoist goes over a lot of the ground that I would have covered, but if ACKS was a series of LL supplements... you're replacing classes, you're replacing the spell system, you're adding the talent section, replacing the rewards section, adjusting the monsters section to the few major rule changes, really adding the domain management stuff (Because there's so little in LL)... you'd be referencing the supplement contents a lot more than the core rulebook contents, and the ACKS submechanics all hang together so much that ripping them out is going to make something stop working correctly. The only things it really shares is the core rules chapter... is that enough for a new game? I'd say yes, but I can understand why you (And others) would want a bigger change in the core gameplay.
Quote from: EOTB;584373But there is an undefined practical limit in how many almost-old-D&D games that the OSR can absorb and maintain any sense of identity. At some point if it's 400 different games with 25 players each, you lack a critical mass and the common language becomes dialects only partially compatible.
All OSR games are cross-compatible with each other to a degree hardly imaginable for most other frameworks. I can run an ACKS/OSRIC/LL/S&W/Mazes & Minotaurs/Stars Without Number Expedition to the Olympian Peaks mashup game without doing much more than flipping an AC value and expect it to work fine. Anyone with a palate sufficiently discerning to actually care about the differences between the games is someone experienced enough to convert them all on the fly during play. Those who don't care won't even notice the differences in the first place, and none of the games will break because of it.
To this extent I'd agree that yes, there's a saturation point of games that do exactly what the originals did, but we passed that point years ago. Once we had S&W/LL/OSRIC we pretty much had everything we needed for old-school D&D revival barring a good 2e clone. Every game that's come out since then that has actually made any sort of impact has been a game that promised to do something more than just recapitulate the past or dish up "better D&D". And because of the old-school framework, I can use any and all of these games in my own home campaign, gutting the dozen pages of core rules that I don't need and adopting the rest in whatever bits and pieces I like best.
I don't worry about glutting because it's a self-correcting problem. If your latest effort doesn't actually bring anything new and exciting it'll just fall away into irrelevance. If you dish up something that people actually like, they'll strip the bits they enjoy and bolt them on to their house system, so it's not as if it was wasted effort.
Quote from: estar;584378Thanks for taking the time for clarifying your answer.
And as an aside, I did some research into when the term "Old School Renaissance" in regards to the playing of older edition D&D was coined. The earliest reference I can document is found on Dragonsfoot
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11962
Interestingly the poster was anonymous. 2007 was the year where it exploded into widespread use. Expeditous Retreat Press and Dan Proctor with his OSR Lulu store front had a lot to do with popularizing the term.
You bring up an interesting point. Please don't take this critically, but think about what you are saying. Why are there so many games? Because the OSR is largely founded on the freedom granted by the Open Game License. The consequence of this freedom is that there are no gatekeeper to allow somebody to use the older edition rules.
Then compounding this is the separate development of print on demand and internet communications. Now the barrier to actually selling something is extremely low, in fact no barrier at all to the determined hobbyist.
What we are seeing is a consequence of these two factors compounding the effect of the other in relation to older edition publishing and play.
Any alternative involves gatekeepers of some type. Is this what you want? Somebody else to say "No your books is redundant make it different or you can't publish it." If you had a Ring of Three Wishes would you want that power for yourself? Or anybody else to have it for that matter?
For me, I don't want that power, nor I am willing to give that power to anybody else. My solution is to make even easier for people to write, publish, and communicate.
My faith is the belief that my fellow gamers and customers can sort it out for themselves. And I have concrete reasons for that belief if you want to talk about it further. As well as reasons why the existence of 400 rule sets is not going to be of consequence.
I agree, current technology and legal freedoms make the current state inevitable.
No, I don't want a gatekeeper for all of the reasons you describe.
Let me bring it back around a bit, because the nature of the OSR was a thread divergence that forked at around the "3 years old" post. My criticism/cynicism - however it is viewed - might be best summed up as a question.
Given the continuance of current trend, if the OSR continues to exist as a gaming philosophy, is it conceivable that in 10 years I could have a conversation with a younger gamer in which they identify themselves as an "OSR gamer" (for lack of a better term), and yet when I ask them what they thought about the foreword to the 1E DMG they shrug and tell me "I don't know, I've heard about that book but I've never seen it"?
I know, the OSR is a nebulous, undefinable thing. But the explosion of D&D-faced-15 degrees-to-the-left in the last half-year or so makes me wonder if for the first time, there isn't a significant portion of those who identify themselves as "OSR" for whom the actual, original games are not a necessary part of that identity. Or at best, only a homage instead of as actual gaming tools.
And yes, I would find that sad on some level, and contrary to the excitement or purpose that caused such a name to spring up in the first place.
But apart from that identity, or brand, or rocket decal on the spine of the book as Tavis described it, the idea of 400 games with 25 players each bothers me not a whit. Although I even then I see it as a trade-off of a near-perfect individual table experience where everyone has their exact flavor, for the community of everyone having gone through the against the giants series. But it's just a trade off.
And yes, I would be interested in what concrete stuff you have, either in thread or by PM.
EOTB,
I think 22 posts is about as much as we need out of you. Take a deep breath and think is there anything else you could do with your time. Thank you.
Quote from: _kent_;584376I never used the word accomplishment. There are nuances to the word of perfection and attainment but like I said if you consider getting out of bed an accomplishment then I can't argue with you. (You may want to consider using the OED rather than freedictionary.com)
You wrote about successfully completing the task of finding the right presentation for Craven Below which is still one of the accepted definition of the word and it still makes your criticism ironic.
And yes one of the uses of accomplishments is to signify skill. However you have really did have access to the OED you will which of the multiple definitions of a work is used depends on its context. Which in the case of "things I want to accomplish" clearly used it in the meaning of "tasks I want to successfully complete." However I want to improve my writing and make the best product possible, I do have desire to be an accomplished writer and game designer.
Quote from: _kent_;584376and if you adopted my proposal naive gamers would not be fooled by fiascos like Dwimmermount and your rubbish.
OK I bite, so exactly how many units have you sold?
On Lulu I sold 319 units of Majestic Wilderlands across all formats since 2009
On RPGNow I sold another 319 units of Majestic Wilderlands across all formats since 2009.
On RPGNow I have over 2519 download of the PDF version of Blackmarsh
On my website I have a further 1123 downloads of the Blackmarsh SRD
On RPGnow I sold over 96 books of Blackmarsh.
If have 24219 unique page views of How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox by far my most popular post. 12 times more than my next post "A 911 call from the Attic".
Per my contract I can't divulge sales figures of my Points of Light book. I don't know how well Fortress Badabaskor or the Wilderlands boxed set did, two products I co-authored. I will say that I am responsible for being the person to come with the final format of writing the Wilderlands Boxed Set.
However according to RPGNow Points of Lights I is a Silver Pick and II is a Copper Pick. Also Fortress of Badabaskor Version 2 is a Silver Pick.
Off hand I would say I had some minor accomplishments as a game author. A
Quote from: I run with scissors;584289Well if you look at what they put on their very own webpage, the impications are such that they view themselves as an investment platform, and not a store.
I should have been more specific in my comment, sorry. It is irrelevant how they view themselves if they cannot convince the appropriate taxing authorities.
Quote from: EOTB;584206I don't know of an OSR that is all about rehashing and rereleasing the exact same anything. Are you saying that making new spells, classes, modules, etc., for AD&D using the safe harbor of OSRIC is bad, while making new spells, classes, modules, etc., for AS&SH is great? Or if Gamma World is cloned with Mutant Future that's to be praised, but B/X is cloned with LL, it isn't?
I may have been off about Mutant Future, I'm not 100% sure because I haven't actually read it (they never sent me a review copy!), but I was under the impression that unlike LL with B/X, mutant future was NOT an exact clone, but rather a new old-school game "in the style of" GW.
I'm more interested in new iterations of old-school play than another dungeon for levels 1-3 of AD&D. That's what I'm saying.
QuoteIf you're talking about people who want to play OSRIC rather than people who want to publish new shit using OSRIC - that makes some sense to me. I remain somewhat perplexed by people who want to play OSRIC in lieu of AD&D.
Well, I can kind of agree with that just on the fact that they're the same fucking game. What I'm saying is that I already have the D&D rules, I want something new with the old-school aesthetic.
QuoteI like many of the games you listed, but then again, many of them exceed the "OD&D with my house rules" threshold in my opinion. I'm not interested in buying a 300 page book to get your 50 pages of house rules, with the other 250 pages being the game I already own, just rotated 15 degrees off center.
The thing is, I don't think any of the games I listed are quite that. Majestic Wilderlands is only the house rules and not a complete game in itself, so we can rule that one out right off the bat.
But as for the others, look at something like Lamentations of the Flame Princess: to get the same experience as LotFP provides, you'd have to list so many "house rules" and modifications to B/X D&D that you're better off just publishing it as a full-blown new game.
My own upcoming Arrows of Indra is even more radically different as a rules-set, there's absolutely no way I could have done what I wanted with it by publishing it as a set of house rules for another game (which is the reason why I didn't end up making a deal with Tavis, who was very nice to me, but was hoping to publish Arrows as a sourcebook for ACKS; I knew that the changes I wanted were just too many, or that the compromises I'd have to make to the system I envisioned would be too many if I were to try to fit that admittedly very good rules-set).
So my point is that the OSR stuff I love is precisely that stuff that diverges sufficiently from AD&D, OD&D or B/X to feel like its a new take on Old School. That's what I think is worthwhile.
RPGPundit
Quote from: estar;584390OK I bite
Not worth it Rob. This guy's idea of a moral/intellectual high ground is to post shit like this:
Quote from: _kent_;584380By the way Estar in your avatar you look like a Wool-Man my sister once made for her doll-house before she lost interest in him and fed him to our dog Biffo.
... all the while complaining that people post rubbish on the internet. I mean come on. Let's just appreciate the irony and let him fight his windmills in his corner of the echo chamber.
Quote from: _kent_;584388EOTB,
I think 22 posts is about as much as we need out of you. Take a deep breath and think is there anything else you could do with your time. Thank you.
Actually, today's my day off and I'm waiting at the repair shop for my car. So you're basically fucked.
Quote from: Melan;584256Coincidentally, Kickstarter is starting to feel the heat (http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store) from unrealised and delayed projects.
Can I call it or what?
RPGPundit
Quote from: SineNomine;584382All OSR games are cross-compatible with each other to a degree hardly imaginable for most other frameworks.
Yup, that's the beauty of it. I can find material in ACKS that I might want to use in my LotFP campaign. My upcoming Arrows of Indra game will be further away mechanically from core D&D than either of the above are, but I think that someone who plays either of those would have ZERO problem taking a ton of stuff from AoI to put into their ACKS or LotFP games without having to do any meaningful "converting". Monsters, magic items, random encounter tables, cavern complex generation system, weapons, equipment, and setting info could all be ported over without any problem.
QuoteI don't worry about glutting because it's a self-correcting problem. If your latest effort doesn't actually bring anything new and exciting it'll just fall away into irrelevance. If you dish up something that people actually like, they'll strip the bits they enjoy and bolt them on to their house system, so it's not as if it was wasted effort.
Exactly.
RPGPundit
Estar, I sense you want to send me pdfs of your work for free for adjudication and I say .. that's ok ... let's see what happens.
Quote from: Benoist;584393let him fight his windmills in his corner of the echo chamber.
Windmills!! Awesome!! Im in the pantheon, baby!!
Quote from: _kent_;584400Estar, I sense you want to send me pdfs of your work for free for adjudication and I say .. that's ok ... let's see what happens.
Post your numbers Kent.
And if you know my work so well you know that Blackmarsh is free to download.
Quote from: Benoist;584393Not worth it Rob. This guy's idea of a moral/intellectual high ground is to post shit like this:
... all the while complaining that people post rubbish on the internet. I mean come on. Let's just appreciate the irony and let him fight his windmills in his corner of the echo chamber.
Thanks for the heads up there. I didn't see that until I after I posted.
And Boffo would have a bad surprise when he tries to eat me. I am wearing 40 lbs of armor in that picture. Mainly a Coat of Plates underneath the surcoat.
-------------------------------------
And Kent when you read this, post your numbers.
Quote from: estar;584403Post your numbers Kent?
4 gamers per month.
Numbers, fortunately, put the likes of James Mal., Zak S and J Rients at the top and only Rients of those is an interesting gamer IMV. Ive seen some blogs more interesting than those implode in the last few years for lack of interest. Talent is not measured by counting the votes of the Talentless Innumerable but by a slow silent accumulation of respect from intelligent and creative types. But by all means gather your statistics if it makes you feel like you are accomplishing something.
Quote from: estar;584405Boffo would have a bad surprise when he tries to eat me. I am wearing 40 lbs of armor in that picture. Mainly a Coat of Plates underneath the surcoat.
Biffo !! not Boffo . Biffo ground you down over some hot summer months with a muck of saliva you would not believe. His Wool-Man looked exactly like you (at the beginning of the summer)
Quote from: _kent_;5844064 gamers per month.
Thanks
Quote from: estar;584408Thanks
No wait, 2 gamers per month Wool-Man!
I usually keep my mouth shut anymore, but I will take a stand here and say that there are dozens of excellent contributors to the OSR and many other games out there and it is a bit of a shame to see this devolve into making a punching bag out of those that wish to contribute to other people's games because I know that I am not the only one who has given material away FOR FREE for people to use. Some of the people maligned (although not all) were a part of TARGA and whether you know about it or not (I was one of the founders), we tried to get the word out and get people playing games, doing what we could, sometimes at our own cost, to help get the OSR word out there, not just for D&D either, mind you, but for any of the 'Lost Games' of years gone by. In addition, we strove to stay out of edition wars and infighting, although I broke that rule myself with the entire "Porngate" situation and I left TARGA over it. This conversation seems to have deviated from a particular situation to bashing anyone involved and a lot of people have given freely to the OSR and gaming in general that do not deserve to be spoken ill of.
Whatever is happening with James of Grognardia is a strange and questionable situation, but in time it should be resolved and should not reflect on anyone not directly involved with that project.
Quote from: EOTB;584373I wonder if Tavis is of the consideration that TARGA was the start of the OSR.
No, it wasn't even mentioned in the presentation I did about the OSR at Gen Con. I started there with the Open Game License and how it allowed for Necromancer ("first edition feel") and Dungeon Crawl Classics to demonstrate their love of the original approach and publish stuff that appealed to that audience; how WotC's reversal of T$R's fansite policy allowed early sites like Dragonsfoot and the Acaeum to flourish; and then got into the first retroclones, mainly C&C and OSRIC but also the arguably-even-earlier progenitor of Basic Fantasy. (I think I shafted ODDities and Microlite '74 for lack of space, sorry about that!) Much of this was before I was paying attention (although I did pick up the Wilderlands box set when it first came out) so I relied on other histories and queries at Dragonsfoot and the Acaeum to help me pick up the thread.
I do think that TARGA marks a particular development in OSR self-consciousness. It wasn't "we started a thing," but it was "we are willing to publicly identify ourselves as part of this thing" and also "this is a cool thing that we think other people will want to experience through play, so let's take the energy and enthusiasm of talking about games in the blogosphere and use it to create opportunities for gamers to roll in this style whether or not they've been doing so all along."
I think TARGA also marked a point where interest in sharing ideas with the outside world was emerging from a prior emphais on defending the boundaries of a nascent scene against outsiders. When a subculture is just starting out, you need a critical mass of people with shared interests and experiences. That might easily be diluted by an influx of people coming in from the majority culture; it'd be harder to have a fruitful conversation working out the principles of old-school dungeon design if most of the people posting thought that level-appropriate encouters were the only rational approach. When I first posted at Dragonsfoot back in '05, people were not like "gee it's awesome that you are interested in compiling every published reference to the stirge since the beginning of D&D, we can find some common ground there". The general consensus was that finding common ground was much less important than driving out people like me who were interested in commercial publication for the edition Dragonsfoot defined itself in opposition to.
TARGA advocated the opposite approach. I see that as part of the maturation of a subculture, and for myself reaching out is something I'm temperamentally better suited for than repelling intruders. However I understand why this can be seen as threatening or undoing the work of the boundary-patrollers, and I see some value in them doing that job even if it's not one I'd want.
That's interesting, Tavis, thanks. I never hung out at Dragonsfoot and didn't start reading blogs and such until after the aforementioned "issues" with TARGA and such, so I have only the most general notion of how that went down.
The whole "what is the OSR" and "what should it be" discussions that crop up every couple months are pretty tedious. I like stuff, I read stuff, I run and play and steal from stuff. I don't much care if there's a name for it or if I'm running with the 'cool kids'.
The Dragonsfoot site, as well as Grognardia and a bunch of other blogs were all going full steam well before TARGA existed. Claiming TARGA created the OSR is BS. At most, it gave the bloggers a name to use for product identity.
I'm personally glad Targa failed, as many of its members were pushing the "clone the rules as close as possible and damn anything else" idea.
Quote from: danbuter;584418many of its members were pushing the "clone the rules as close as possible and damn anything else" idea.
Ick.
In the interest of post-train-wreck voyeurism, if anybody has a link or two that would recount this sordid saga, I'd be interested in reading it.
Quote from: bat;584411I know that I am not the only one who has given material away FOR FREE for people to use.
Not to be rude to anyone else. But I can totally relate to this passage. I published a free gaming magazine/newsletter/what ever the fuck you want to call it. With different themes each month. (High fantasy, weird west, cyberpunk, horror, and etc.) It was full of adventures, ideas, hooks and all kinds of stuff to be mined. It was not just me either. I recruited my friends, gaming crew, and people I met through the mag. I did it for fun,my love of gaming, to shake out the nuggets of awesome and share them. I distributed it at several FLGS. To give back to the gaming community in general. I was, and am proud of the work I did. (And those who contributed) I kind of think about the OSR in the same fashion. (Although I am not what may be considered part of the OSR community.) People sharing and melding ideas. Having fun with something they all love. Playing RPG's. A community of people playing, and well that's just an awesome and good thing.
I think you will find many OSR blogs have published stuff for free, even if it's just a collection of blog entries. If someone actually tracked all of it down and used it, they'd never need to buy another supplement.
Quote from: danbuter;584418The Dragonsfoot site, as well as Grognardia and a bunch of other blogs were all going full steam well before TARGA existed. Claiming TARGA created the OSR is BS. At most, it gave the bloggers a name to use for product identity.
I'm personally glad Targa failed, as many of its members were pushing the "clone the rules as close as possible and damn anything else" idea.
As one of the founders of TARGA I agree with you. Now, I would not have at the start, because things were different. Somewhere along the line some things changed and when 'Porngate' happened everything shattered and it became a different entity. I left the OSR over that. I just write a blog now and play games, doing what TARGA began as? You can do that yourself at home with basic formatting skills, OpenOffice and a printer. I was into getting the word out there that ALL editions of the game are still alive and encouraging people to fill out fliers for their games and run with it. There were a lot of people with good intentions at first, then things got weird.
Find a few people, grab some dice and character sheets with your rules of choice and go! It is really that easy.
I'm ever so tempted to help this thread along.
Quote from: _kent_;5844064 gamers per month.
Numbers, fortunately, put the likes of James Mal., Zak S and J Rients at the top and only Rients of those is an interesting gamer IMV. Ive seen some blogs more interesting than those implode in the last few years for lack of interest. Talent is not measured by counting the votes of the Talentless Innumerable but by a slow silent accumulation of respect from intelligent and creative types. But by all means gather your statistics if it makes you feel like you are accomplishing something.
How's the "slow silent accumulation of respect from intelligent and creative types" working out for you? Christ even YDIS treat you like a play toy and everywhere else has even less time for your self aggrandising histrionics. You have nothing worthwhile to say, you stand for nothing and your blog is a series of grand plans and concepts that begin with great fanfare and then dwindle to nothing. The substance is always lacking.
By your own admission you can only attract two players to your game which is probably a small mercy as it comes across as a dreadful railroad in which you masturbate about your setting while your plays dutifully listen.
All that is well and good but then spare us your grand announcements and sly put downs. You are not speaking from a lofty mount nor even a hill of beans. At best you could be characterized as sniping from the gutter.
Quote from: Gib;584441I'm ever so tempted to help this thread along.
It would be Christmas come early, sir.
Quote from: bat;584411Whatever is happening with James of Grognardia is a strange and questionable situation, but in time it should be resolved and should not reflect on anyone not directly involved with that project.
According to the general theory of the RPGpundit, the lacking social hygiene will fire back on the OSR. In this case of JM, the moment his claim to leadership of the OSR went unopposed or at least was generally accepted...
...basically what he writes and does is seen by many, many people, the majoritiy I fear, as being THE OSR.
Quote from: Gib;584441I'm ever so tempted to help this thread along.
Please!
Quote from: I run with scissors;584180Or, and a post script, it was a freaking typo.
I see you're still lying and engaging in tu quoque fallacies, you worthless piece of shit.
Let's take a moment to review your pertinent posts again:
Quote from: I run with scissors;583231It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583452Richard Barton on August 20
What? How can this be? I am a lying "sack of shit" according to you. I have no idea who this backer is, but here is the first backer who expressed something other than sunshine and lollipops.
Do you have any explanation yet for your belief that August 20th happens before August 10th, you lying sack of shit?
And can you explain why you're claiming that these dates are "typos" given that both of these dates are, in fact, completely accurate?
Quote3. Have you not hit your promise release date?
Allow me to repeat myself: You appear to be insinuating that I've missed a promised release date. Is that what you're trying to say, you lying sack of shit?
If you refuse to answer the question this time, I won't bother even marginally engaging with your tu quoque fallacy in the future.
QuoteNow, knowing your usual tactics you are going to do the following:
1. Call me a lying sack shit.
You're right. You're going to keep getting called a lying sack of shit until you stop posting your lies.
Are you planning to stop posting your lies any time soon?
Quote from: Melan;584256Coincidentally, Kickstarter is starting to feel the heat (http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store) from unrealised and delayed projects.
The new guidelines for Hardware found at that link don't make a lot of sense to me. Hypothetical renderings of a proposed product have been part of pitch meetings for decades. I don't understand the logic behind banishing them from Kickstarter.
I for one am indeed confused as to the actual dates. Upthread IRWS posted dates in the wrong order and that messes with my head.
NB:What is the matter with Americans and numbers?
Liquid ounzes?
3/30 as a date?
Cubic feet?
Addition and subtraction called "math"?
True story, recently an American scientist[!] asked me how to calculate the volume 100 000 tons of water have...
when I started to explain that a 1x1x1m cube is a ton = 1000kg = 1000l of water of water, he replied "that can't be true, my pickup is a 3.5 ton truck and the freight area is much longer" ...etc. etc.
So he ignores and denies any merit of the metric system because of his mental image of his pickup truck. I shit you not.
But a Q for J. Alexander no matter how much IRWS is a bag of untruth, from the outside it does indeed looks like Tavis and JM reacted way more after online ruckus was caused.
Quote from: Settembrini;584460recently an American scientist[!] asked me how to calculate the volume 100 000 tons of water have...
Metric tons, long tons, or another kind?
The tonne (also "metric ton") is a non-SI British unit, equivalent to 1000 kg (2204 lbs). The U.S. ton is 2000 lbs. The British ton (also "long ton") is 2,240 lbs.
That a scientist should be so ignorant of a commonly confused term is... dispiriting, to say the least. I'll admit, I had to look the above values up, but at least I was aware that there were several different tons, all measuring different amounts. Why wasn't he?
(More, as regards the tonne, the thorny issue of comparing measurements of mass to measurements of weight. The two are not the same.)
Sorry, metric ton, ofc.
A qualifier not used in metric system countries... except when dealing with shipping freight, Americans or bomb loads.
True fact: For almost sixty years nearly all European books on the WWII air-war had the bombs-dropped figures wrong...because of long tonne short tonne and British/American pound differences getting all mixed up...
Fiasco, again I have to point out that you are having a one sided conversation in your own head because I don't know who you are, have no interest in finding out and am going to ignore your buzzing on my peripherals from now on. Feel free to continue your close reading of my blog though.
Quote from: Settembrini;584460True story, recently an American scientist[!] asked me how to calculate the volume 100 000 tons of water have...
when I started to explain that a 1x1x1m cube is a ton = 1000kg = 1000l of water of water, he replied "that can't be true, my pickup is a 3.5 ton truck and the freight area is much longer" ...etc. etc.
So he ignores and denies any merit of the metric system because of his mental image of his pickup truck. I shit you not.
I am half tempted to ask what sort of "scientist" your "American" friend is. Partly out of curiosity and partly out of a desire to further derail this clusterfuck of a thread.
Quote from: Settembrini;584469Sorry, metric ton, ofc.
A qualifier not used in metric system countries... except when dealing with shipping freight, Americans or bomb loads.
Without differences in such measurement we would be denied such awesome expressions such as the metric fuckton. Its all good. :D
Quote from: _kent_;584472Fiasco, again I have to point out that you are having a one sided conversation in your own head because I don't know who you are, have no interest in finding out and am going to ignore your buzzing on my peripherals from now on. Feel free to continue your close reading of my blog though.
Some Thing Kent is your true identify little man? Wow they let retards choose the darnedest names at the deed poll office.
Quote from: Settembrini;584460But a Q for J. Alexander no matter how much IRWS is a bag of untruth, from the outside it does indeed looks like Tavis and JM reacted way more after online ruckus was caused.
That's an unfortunate effect of James having preferred to do most of our communication about the project through backer-only updates. I think it would have been better to talk publicly about the delays from the beginning, but the online ruckus in open forums has gotten the job done in any case.
The perspective from the inside involves a growing ruckus of emails and phone calls as it becomes clear that the announced ship date is unlikely to be met and we try various approaches to getting it back on track which were less effective than the weekly update strategy adopted on August 10. Some dates that backers can verify, though, are:
- In backer update #17 on June 4, 2012, James talks about events with his family's health that have contributed to the project not being finished by the original date planned, and predicts that the complete PDF will be available in Fall 2012. Fifteen comments from backers, two expressing frustration with the delay.
- In backer update #20 on August 10, we discuss how the three drafts of dungeon levels that have been completed since then (shared in updates #18 and #19) haven't arrived at the rate James had hoped in update #17. As a result we commit to internal scheduling that will help establish whether or not a reasonable rate of progress is being achieved and allow the projection of a realistic date of overall completion, and begin a series of weekly updates to increase transparency and accountability. Seven comments, all supportive.
- In backer update #21 on August 17, we share scans of some of the dungeon notes from the original Dwimmermount campaign (as promised in the first bonus goal). One comment from a backer who says the notes are much more skeletal than he'd realized and expresses doubts about whether it ever would have been possible to have turned these notes into a finished product by the original deadline, which in a reply I agree was over-ambitious and did not leave a sufficient hedge against the unexpected.
- Updates #22 and #23 are on August 24 and 31 and continue tracking progress against and updating the internal schedule of milestones towards completion. Two comments, one about the Minecraft server, one from a backer interested in a refund.
- On September 1 a user called I run with scissors starts a thread on a public area of the Autarch forum (http://www.autarch.co/forums/dwimmermount/scam) and quotes the backer updates. Later in the thread a user called IRWS, who seems to be continuing I run with scissors' voice in the conversation, identifies himself as having pledged $40 to the project. This is the likeliest way to have been reading the backer updates, but it can't be verified because neither user account has been created with an email or Kickstarter handle that matches a backer in the system.
Raising that ruckus had the praiseworthy effects of bringing discussion of the issues facing the project into the public sphere and allowing more space for voices expressing dissatisfaction, since the general tone established among the backers in the comments to the updates was supportive. Nevertheless four backers felt comfortable enough being nonconformists to express dissatisfaction prior to September 1; differences in modus operandi make it seem unlikely that any of these were the same person who later posted as I run with scissors.
Addressing comments in the Autarch thread helped me identify some better ways to communicate about the current status of the project in the weekly updates. Nevertheless the project management approach that's been proving effective predated I run with scissors; was in reaction to the delays themselves, not any online ruckus about it; and wasn't a decision to start dealing with the delays for the first time, just a decision to be transparent with backers about the process.
Quote from: Settembrini;584450In this case of JM, the moment his claim to leadership of the OSR went unopposed or at least was generally accepted..
Link please. Again as with some others on this and past thread who like to bash the OSR or individuals with generalizations, link to the specifics so folk can judge for themselves.
Quote from: EOTB;584213I'm not seeing the requirement for ACK to be its own game either in that thread. That it could be a supplement is evident in that it is acknowledged as able to be used with a minimal amount of work with other systems. (emphasis added - BV)
*PING!*Quote from: EOTB;584213Once we get to "it's tempting to fill in the other parts and make it its own game" then I speculate that's a baser motivation that drives it.
Like the cloying cross-marketing of
ACKS in the
Dwimmermount Kickstarter: "The dungeon key will be published for LL as well as Autarch's new Adventurer Conqueror King System, or ACKS, which adds support for characters who wish to use Dwimmermount's wealth to start a thieves' guild, create their own magical cross-breeds, or build a stronghold."
When you're simultaneously claiming that
ACKS 'needed to be a complete game' in one breath while touting it as "easily adaptable" to all flavors of
D&D in another and pushing your product in someone else's ad copy, then the hype machine is running on overload.
Quote from: estar;584238The one hard and fast rule about selling to the OSR is never ever promote what you do as a better D&D. That kill sales across all segments of the market.
Does it, really?
The main commercial benefits of publishing a separate game are (1) brand creation and recognition, and (2) a priori less strings attached to other products and lines from other publishers you cannot control and supervise yourself.
What's being systematically ignored is that the more brands you add, the more fractured the audience becomes, and the stronger the individual brands are, the more individual identification with a particular game, and therefore oppositions, etc, there'll be on the part of the audience(s) of these games.
Also, to those who wish ill to the "true" clones like S&W, LL and OSRIC and at the same time applaud the coming of new games taking things in their own separate directions, just realize that without S&W, there would have been no LotFP or Stars Without Number, without LL there would have been no ACKS and no echo resounding, and without OSRIC there would have been no Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.
So I honestly find it hypocritical to bitch at the former, and then praise the latter like they're the second coming of Gygax. It's not logically consistent.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584494Does it, really?
The arrogance alone is an open handed slap to the face. If someone's knocked together heartbreaker makes this claim then it has to more than deliver.
I'm ok with " my take on D&D" or "my version of D&D". Saying that its objectively better is an instant flag that signals the smell of shit.
Quote from: Settembrini;584450According to the general theory of the RPGpundit, the lacking social hygiene will fire back on the OSR. In this case of JM, the moment his claim to leadership of the OSR went unopposed or at least was generally accepted...
...basically what he writes and does is seen by many, many people, the majoritiy I fear, as being THE OSR.
He claimed leadership over the OSR? When was this? Egads, this is getting more terrifying by the moment. The entire idea behind the OSR, from my understanding, is that we are all doing our own thing, just related war stories and what worked and what didn't.
I am surprised he would be unopposed though, I would imagine that the One Of Porn would want that crown.
I am rather glad that I am out of the OSR and just doing my thing, which was what I sort of thought was the point anyway.
Quote from: bat;584500He claimed leadership over the OSR? When was this?
An event taking place in Settembri's mind is going to be hard to date precisely.
Quote from: Benoist;584496The main commercial benefits of publishing a separate game are (1) brand creation and recognition, and (2) a priori less strings attached to other products and lines from other publishers you cannot control and supervise yourself.
What's being systematically ignored is that the more brands you add, the more fractured the audience becomes, and the stronger the individual brands are, the more individual identification with a particular game, and therefore oppositions, etc, there'll be on the part of the audience(s) of these games.
Also, to those who wish ill to the "true" clones like S&W, LL and OSRIC and at the same time applaud the coming of new games taking things in their own separate directions, just realize that without S&W, there would have been no LotFP or Stars Without Number, without LL there would have been no ACKS and no echo resounding, and without OSRIC there would have been no Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.
So I honestly find it hypocritical to bitch at the former, and then praise the latter like they're the second coming of Gygax. It's not logically consistent.
Well said, Benoist. Many attitudes have changed from 'Standing on the shoulders of giants.' to ' My idea is better than theirs!' and it is rather puzzling as this is a small community and it probably behooves one to step back, take a deep breath and appreciate all that has come before.
Another blogger and I are right now, working on YET ANOTHER BLOODY SYSTEM, not because we think it will be the next best thing, but rather for points mentioned by Benoist; we want to release settings and adventures, but feel that we would need to have a core set of rules to maintain balance and control over our releases.
Our system will be different from many other offerings (note I am not saying better, just an alternative in many ways) and we plan to support it with adventures (we are actually working to get the majority of work done before release: core, supplements, adventures and settings to expand in time) before making huge detailed announcements and without crowdfunding (or clip art).
Through this process my partner in crime and I have bounced a lot of ideas around, but at no point did either of us consider this particular take to be better or worse than any other game, we just started talking and the game has grown organically from many, many discussions. I know that another set of rules is diluting the OSR pond just that much more, but we are also stretching to look into and revive a couple of other games in this process to go beyond D&D retro-clones to reach an audience outside of the OSR as well.
Will this all work? Who knows? But we will be able to control subsequent releases by controlling the core, which is a CYA move that is practical to use when whoever owns the core rules you are riffing off from can say or do something that you do not agree with.
Quote from: Tavis;584501An event taking place in Settembri's mind is going to be hard to date precisely.
I seem to recall something of that nature a few years ago. As to who said it, where and when, well like i said, a vague recollection is all.
Quote from: Benoist;584496Also, to those who wish ill to the "true" clones like S&W, LL and OSRIC and at the same time applaud the coming of new games taking things in their own separate directions, just realize that without S&W, there would have been no LotFP or Stars Without Number, without LL there would have been no ACKS and no echo resounding, and without OSRIC there would have been no Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.
I'm not wishing ill on the first generation of clones, because you're right, we wouldn't have had the second generation without them. And even re-implementing old mechanics, it's obvious that the authors of S&W, LL and OSRIC have put a lot of work in. For all the self-aggrandising of the bloggers, it's Matt Finch et al people that have done the hard work and got the products out there and on shelves.
But... these days, I can't see a reason to recommend LL over ACKS, for example, because ACKS is a superset of the same material. Out of the book, you could get the LL play experience from ACKS, but not vice-versa... and while a GM could write all that material themselves for LL, or grab it from elsewhere and integrate it into their campaign, it's a lot of work to do when someone else has already done it for you.
So not "the newer products are better!", but "the newer products provide more explicit support and resources!".
Quote from: Tavis;584501An event taking place in Settembri's mind is going to be hard to date precisely.
Heeheehee....
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584494Does it, really?
It does.
Quote from: Ladybird;584507But... these days, I can't see a reason to recommend LL over ACKS, for example, because ACKS is a superset of the same material. Out of the book, you could get the LL play experience from ACKS, but not vice-versa... and while a GM could write all that material themselves for LL, or grab it from elsewhere and integrate it into their campaign, it's a lot of work to do when someone else has already done it for you.
What is consistently missed here is that LL, S&W and OSRIC were never end onto themselves, UNLIKE the new games trying to be "things" apart from their genitors. The core, ultimate, main reason for LL, S&W and OSRIC to exist was to create indexes and compilations of OGL-compatible rules (note that OSRIC stands for Old School
Reference Index and Compilation here - it's a VERY conscious choice of an acronym) so that the original games, namely Moldvay-Cook D&D, OD&D and AD&D First Ed could see new modules, supplements and variants published for them under the legal, explicit protection the OGL affords.
That's it. THAT was the point. OSRIC didn't aim to be a "game" onto itself. The first version was actually, noticeably NOT a full game. It was a collection of material destined to be referenced by later products as "OSRIC compatible" meaning in OGL-jargon "AD&D 1e compatible. It's only AFTER, once people started to actually play with these documents and went back to Stuart Marshall and Matt Finch (btw, note that Stuart is credited in OSRIC as the Editor, not the "author", which is a very conscious choice of terminology here again) complaining that these could be better used at an actual game table that the editors of the game, surprised, realized that some people were actually using OSRIC as a game, instead of the OGL reference document for publication it was (and still is) meant to be.
In that sense, the fact that now you'd recommend say ACKS instead of LL to your friend searching for an old school game to play doesn't invalidate the primary reason for the existence of LL at all. As far as their primary goal of reference documents for OGL publication is concerned, OSRIC, LL and S&W have been and still are brilliant successes. Whether they are played as "things" of their own is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things: fashions come and go, tastes differ, whatever. But what can not be taken away at this point is the ability of anyone on this planet to publish materials for old school D&D, B/X, OD&D and AD&D, under the explicit legal protection of the perpetual OGL. And that's the real win here, the win that was always intended in the first place.
Yeah, that's exactly how I view the "true clones:" standards that facilitate the publication of modules, supplements, etc. that are compatible with my D&D game. I don't play OSIRC, for example, I play AD&D and use OSRIC material in my game.
Quote from: Benoist;584521In that sense, the fact that now you'd recommend say ACKS instead of LL to your friend searching for an old school game to play doesn't invalidate the primary reason for the existence of LL at all. As far as their primary goal of reference documents for OGL publication is concerned, OSRIC, LL and S&W have been and still are brilliant successes. Whether they are played as "things" of their own is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things: fashions come and go, tastes differ, whatever.
Fair enough, and I'd certainly agree with the historical perspective of OSRIC et al as reference documents for building new material. They've been fantastic successes in that sense.
But I don't think that our two points really conflict with each other; OSRIC et al, as retail products available today, are competing against the products that they made possible, and in that sense... they come up short. And that's fine. As products for sale, they should get judged on their own merits against everything else in their market space.
Yes. One of the big advantages I felt in running AD&D on the boards here was to be able to say to prospective players: "alright, this is an AD&D game; if you have the PH then cool, and if you don't and/or don't know the game, just grab OSRIC for free online and create your character that way." There was very little dissonance between the two, mostly of the adjudication sort most 1e DMs would consider anyway (like "do I use the WP/AC table" or "is the bard in or out?" Those kinds of things).
Likewise, I find great advantage in running 2nd generation OS games which sell electronically at $10 or less for a full game. AS&SH comes instantly to mind, as does ACKS, IIRC.
Quote from: Ladybird;584554But I don't think that our two points really conflict with each other; OSRIC et al, as retail products available today, are competing against the products that they made possible, and in that sense... they come up short. And that's fine. As products for sale, they should get judged on their own merits against everything else in their market space.
Actually I think my argument is rather clear that this competition you talk about wasn't and isn't the point of these games' existence here, so I do think that makes your observation secondary at best, if not moot altogether.
That said, comparing LL say to ACKS and declaring that one falls short compared to the other is just a way of saying ACKS is better than Moldvay, and I just can't agree with that. It's a different take following different expectations and involving different methodologies to support it, okay, but LL isn't "worse" or "not as good". When you don't want to juggle with the fictional economy of an elfgame, that you don't care about numerical values attached to guilds and the like, you might be better off with LL still. So this notion that "ACKS fulfills the promise of the original game", as James M once trumpeted it on Grognardia, is marketing bullshit of the highest order, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Ladybird;584507But... these days, I can't see a reason to recommend LL over ACKS, for example, because ACKS is a superset of the same material. Out of the book, you could get the LL play experience from ACKS, but not vice-versa... and while a GM could write all that material themselves for LL, or grab it from elsewhere and integrate it into their campaign, it's a lot of work to do when someone else has already done it for you.
So not "the newer products are better!", but "the newer products provide more explicit support and resources!".
Well, you can get the same play experience for LL or ACKS from the d20 SRD, but would take some work which is already done. However, if you used LL or ACKS, then you wouldn't be using your own particular spin on the game, would you?
Different games fit different gamers differently.
Quote from: bat;584500He claimed leadership over the OSR? When was this? Egads, this is getting more terrifying by the moment. The entire idea behind the OSR, from my understanding, is that we are all doing our own thing, just related war stories and what worked and what didn't.
I am surprised he would be unopposed though, I would imagine that the One Of Porn would want that crown.
Must....snipe....at....random....guy...I don't...know...on....forum...
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584457I see you're still lying and engaging in tu quoque fallacies, you worthless piece of shit.
Once again:
Answer the questions:
1. Did you do a crowd funding via 8bit?
2. Did the crowd funding close on 9/11/2011?
3. Have you not hit your promise release date?
4. Did you not write this: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/...-not-an-update (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17467/roleplaying-games/legends-labyrinths-not-an-update)?
5. Does not 8 bit state:
QuoteQuote:
Fees and Payments
As with other sites similar to ours, 8-Bit Funding will have a base line fee for its services. In addition to our own fees, PayPal (and any service we may use in the future) will also have its own fees. Here's the breakdown:
PayPal charges 2.9% + $0.30 per transaction. So, for example, a $20 funding will come out to $19.12.
Our own charge is 5%.
So, after both PayPal's and our fee on a $20 funding contribution you'll receive $18.16 of that.
It's a little complicated, but it's the best system available so that everybody gets paid.
Contributions are immediately deposited into your PayPal email account that you supplied when creating your project.
Thus, reading this, one can infer you took money. Is this not true?
So let me make this clear, since you are a pseudo intellectual who shows his lack of honest debate, by belittling and slander:
Did you run a crowd funding campaign, in which you took money upon its' September 11, 2011 closure, and as of September 20, 2012, not sent rewards to said campaigns backers?The more you attack me, the more you look as if you have something to hide. Still knowing you, you will not answer the questions. Thus I have created something for you:
The Justin Alexander Reaction Table (d12)
1. Call person a sack of shit
2. Call the person a liar
3. Engage in overtly hostile ossification
4. Misquote and become thick header that poster might have made a typo
5. Yell and act like baby
6. Develop a acute case of sand in his vagina
7. Count ill gotten gains
8. Refuse to answer a simple questions
9. Act like a total asshat
10. Refuse to answer the question
11. Loss all sense of rationality
12. Roll again
IRWS
Hiya Zachary S!! Welcome to theRPGsite little fella.
Quote from: _kent_;584565Hiya Zachary S!! Welcome to theRPGsite little fella.
What's up, homes?
Quote from: Zak S;584567What's up, homes?
Well, I think the time is right for you to invite me to participate in your google+ hangout with the kool Kids. I think you are convincing in your most recent blogpost and I feel I have much to learn from you about rpgs in the long term but more immediately about integrity and acceptable behaviour in online discussions in this crazy techno world of ours. Also I think you are a credible artist.
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.ie/2012/09/the-future-of-talking-about-games.html
Quote from: _kent_;584568Well, I think the time is right for you to invite me to participate in your google+ hangout with the kool Kids. I think you are convincing in your most recent blogpost and I feel I have much to learn from you about rpgs in the long term but more immediately about integrity and acceptable behaviour in online discussions in this crazy techno world of ours. Also I think you are a credible artist.
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.ie/2012/09/the-future-of-talking-about-games.html
Cool story, bro.
Just a quick comment since I was the one that brought up TARGA, I think that an organization to promote old-school gaming was a good idea. I referenced it simply because it was prominent during the time period that Tavis pointed to, and because in its very first meeting (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TARGATalk/message/2) it was noted that there was some differing of opinions as to what the group's "support for publishers" was to entail. But bringing it up was not to cast the efforts of many in a bad light.
Quote from: Benoist;584557Actually I think my argument is rather clear that this competition you talk about wasn't and isn't the point of these games' existence here, so I do think that makes your observation secondary at best, if not moot altogether.
That said, comparing LL say to ACKS and declaring that one falls short compared to the other is just a way of saying ACKS is better than Moldvay, and I just can't agree with that. It's a different take following different expectations and involving different methodologies to support it, okay, but LL isn't "worse" or "not as good". When you don't want to juggle with the fictional economy of an elfgame, that you don't care about numerical values attached to guilds and the like, you might be better off with LL still. So this notion that "ACKS fulfills the promise of the original game", as James M once trumpeted it on Grognardia, is marketing bullshit of the highest order, as far as I'm concerned.
Well, and not only that, but since ACK is exactly the type of product that the people behind the original clones hoped would be written for them, to expand the premises of the original games, it's like comparing the tricked-out car to the stock car. Stuart has said that OSRIC does not represent how he plays his home game. So it is saying that the game with the open spaces left for others to run with is not as complete as one that took it farther in a proprietary fashion. Bare-bones Linux vrs Apple, in a way.
OSRIC and others were written with the intention of allowing everyone to be a sort of Bob Bledsaw, except without the risk of having the rug yanked out like Bob had happen to him. Instead, many would prefer to be a Kevin Siembieda. There's no crime against the OSR in this, I think it is just an unnecessary fragmentation.
Lots of modules have been written for vanilla OSRIC/AD&D (and the others), but not great amounts of the other types of material that were once expected. Since it is clear that once you go to all the trouble of writing ambitious expansions of the game, it is tempting to create minor revisions to the core and create new games since that's such a negligible amount of extra work, perhaps it is worth having a discussion somewhere if leaving others the space to do this as an incentive is actually hurting perception of OSRIC due to it being seen as a vanilla, unimaginative game. I am sure that the people behind it could add lots of spice if the line was filled out in-house and pushed more vigorously in competition with the new games.
The point was to remove ruleset competition entirely but that's a sailed ship now, and I wonder if sticking to that hurts OSRIC in some ways. As others have noted, if OSRIC competes with original material, those products could be used at many different tables so the gamers benefit.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584564QuoteAllow me to repeat myself: You appear to be insinuating that I've missed a promised release date. Is that what you're trying to say, you lying sack of shit?
If you refuse to answer the question this time, I won't bother even marginally engaging with your tu quoque fallacy in the future.
Once again...
... you have failed to answer the question, thus transparently revealing that you're just engaging in a tu quoque fallacy. (You can't answer the question, of course, because you know that if
did answer it you'd simply get caught in another transparent and pathetic lie.)
Let's take a moment to review your pertinent posts again:
Quote from: I run with scissors;583231It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out.
Quote from: I run with scissors;583452Richard Barton on August 20
What? How can this be? I am a lying "sack of shit" according to you. I have no idea who this backer is, but here is the first backer who expressed something other than sunshine and lollipops.
Do you have any explanation yet for your belief that August 20th happens before August 10th?
And can you explain why you're claiming that these dates are "typos" given that both of these dates are, in fact, completely accurate?
Feel free to continue posting. But until you explain and apologize for your lies, I'm just going to keep pointing out that your lies are transparent and pathetic.
Quote from: Settembrini;584460But a Q for J. Alexander no matter how much IRWS is a bag of untruth, from the outside it does indeed looks like Tavis and JM reacted way more after online ruckus was caused.
I laid this out earlier in the thread: The first notice to backers that things would be late came in June. There were additional updates over the next two months. Then, on August 10th, Tavis posted a backer update that promised more frequent updates on a roughly weekly basis. Since that time, we have, in fact, received frequent updates on a roughly weekly basis.
Scissors-the-Liar claims that the reason we've been receiving frequent updates on a roughly weekly basis is because people started complaining on August 20th. But the reality is that we started receiving more frequent updates because Tavis decided more frequent updates were needed.
Basically, Scissors hopes that if he keeps blowing his bullshit smoke nobody will notice that there's no actual fire here. All you've got is a Kickstarter project that's running a few months late because somebody's father died. It's not an ideal situation, but it's not the end of the universe and it doesn't mean that anybody is "scamming" anyone.
How heavy, this ACK's.
@Justin Alexander: you managed to accomplish two things
1) I am more wary of IRWS. He seems to have one additional agenda I am not getting yet.
2) You look petty, disorganized, angry and dodgy. I don't know you or your project, but you are indeed repeating yourselves & seem to have not finished the product as announced.
ADD: I do not see IRWS begging for money anywhere. But you did beg/advertise. Any damage you do to IRWS is damage to a random agent of enlightenment slash forum troll. Any damage to your own reputation is worth real money! So, why don't you do damage control and explain why you did not deliver the full product you promised for over a year? From a superficial scan I see you have some art difficulties?
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584573Basically, Scissors hopes that if he keeps blowing his bullshit smoke nobody will notice that there's no actual fire here. All you've got is a Kickstarter project that's running a few months late because somebody's father died. It's not an ideal situation, but it's not the end of the universe and it doesn't mean that anybody is "scamming" anyone.
No, that's not quite the entirety of it, because if everything else was true and it was just the unfortunate death in the family, you would have your finished PDF right now, wouldn't you?
People aren't pissed about the death in the family delaying the books due to a grieving period. People are pissed because on the day the kickstarter ended, what people were led to believe about it's level of readiness was so far out of whack it no longer qualifies as puffery. Who said what on August 20 or August 10 is simply when that big elephant in the room got out.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584572Do you have any explanation yet for your belief that August 20th happens before August 10th?
And can you explain why you're claiming that these dates are "typos" given that both of these dates are, in fact, completely accurate?
Feel free to continue posting. But until you explain and apologize for your lies, I'm just going to keep pointing out that your lies are transparent and pathetic.
Where is the 1 and 2 on a keyboard? Sadly, since you are so perfect and probably never made a mistake it must be incomprehensible for you that someone could very easily transpose two numbers while typing. In addition, if you feel that a transposing of numbers invalidates my argument, no matter how much you yell, rant or rave, you will not get me to admit my transposing of 1 and 2 as anything more than just that.
Typo. I have explained it to you time and time again.
The only reason you are acting like this is that you see yourself in Jim's shoes and you are you think by constantly yelling me down, you can deflect.
So be it. Since we are at this impasse, and I feel you will never answer the question, I can conclude the following:
1. You did in fact do a crowd funding campaign via 8bit.
2. Said crowd funding closed on 9/11/2011.
3. You have you not hit your promise release date.
4. You did write this: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/...-not-an-update (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17467/roleplaying-games/legends-labyrinths-not-an-update)?
5. 8 bit does in fact state:
QuoteFees and Payments
As with other sites similar to ours, 8-Bit Funding will have a base line fee for its services. In addition to our own fees, PayPal (and any service we may use in the future) will also have its own fees. Here's the breakdown:
PayPal charges 2.9% + $0.30 per transaction. So, for example, a $20 funding will come out to $19.12.
Our own charge is 5%.
So, after both PayPal's and our fee on a $20 funding contribution you'll receive $18.16 of that.
It's a little complicated, but it's the best system available so that everybody gets paid.
Contributions are immediately deposited into your PayPal email account that you supplied when creating your project.
6. You took said funds upon the completion of your campaign.
7. You are thick header bore, who would rather resort to internet tough guy bullying tactics.
8. You refuse to except any answer I give you.
By all means continue acting in your usual way. The more you rant and rave, the weaker your position becomes.
IRWS
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584573. All you've got is a Kickstarter project that's running a few months late because somebody's father died. It's not an ideal situation, but it's not the end of the universe and it doesn't mean that anybody is "scamming" anyone.
Really?
JM has his or her husbands father die as an excuse? Pretty please" She is a bona fide procrastinator/writers block/depression-in-the-making person.
Don't claim a person over thirty losing his parents is a big deal, that is utter poppycock. She has got a fucking years worth of salary already in her account, no matter what happened to her husbands parents she should fucking deliver.
And if i was Tavis, i would rip her a new own just for such a lame excuse. I mean fuck, if his kid had leucemia, I 'd have sympathy. But an in-law dying at a convenient time? Grow up.
Quote from: Settembrini;584575@Justin Alexander: you managed to accomplish two things
1) I am more wary of IRWS. He seems to have one additional agenda I am not getting yet.
2) You look petty, disorganized, angry and dodgy. I don't know you or your project, but you are indeed repeating yourselves & seem to have not finished the product as announced.
ADD: I do not see IRWS begging for money anywhere. But you did beg/advertise. Any damage you do to IRWS is damage to a random agent of enlightenment slash forum troll. Any damage to your own reputation is worth real money! So, why don't you do damage control and explain why you did not deliver the full product you promised for over a year? From a superficial scan I see you have some art difficulties?
I have no agenda other than what has taken place online. Jim's family issues are such, and I truly feel sorry for them.
Where my issue has always been is the shifting goal posts, and the lack of any public communication as to what is going on.
My first postings where over the top. They were done so to draw attention.
Once again, late projects happen. So be it. However, if the lack of readiness of this project was stated from the start, there would have not been this ambiguity.
IRWS
Quote from: EOTB;584577No, that's not quite the entirety of it, because if everything else was true and it was just the unfortunate death in the family, you would have your finished PDF right now, wouldn't you?
People aren't pissed about the death in the family delaying the books due to a grieving period. People are pissed because on the day the kickstarter ended, what people were led to believe about it's level of readiness was so far out of whack it no longer qualifies as puffery. Who said what on August 20 or August 10 is simply when that big elephant in the room got out.
Bingo.
IRWS
Quote from: Zak S;584563Must....snipe....at....random....guy...I don't...know...on....forum...
Oh, and then there is you, too. Sorry, I forgot.
Quote from: Zak S;584574How heavy, this ACK's.
Be careful with that
ACKS, Eugene.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584584I have no agenda other than what has taken place online. Jim's family issues are such, and I truly feel sorry for them.
Where my issue has always been is the shifting goal posts, and the lack of any public communication as to what is going on.
My first postings where over the top. They were done so to draw attention.
Once again, late projects happen. So be it. However, if the lack of readiness of this project was stated from the start, there would have not been this ambiguity.
IRWS
So...you invested in this kickstarter, and its late. and you're angry. Have you asked for your money back and James refused? I don't understand what could be upsetting you about this otherwise.
Quote from: EOTB;584577People are pissed because on the day the kickstarter ended, what people were led to believe about it's level of readiness was so far out of whack it no longer qualifies as puffery. Who said what on August 20 or August 10 is simply when that big elephant in the room got out.
In the thread on the Autarch board and in the backer comments, reasonable people report having been led to believe different things by the Kickstarter text. As I've said before, I wish I'd left no room for uncertainty that the plan was always for substantial development to take place during the KS campaign and after funding closed. I certainly agree that it would have been wise to leave more time for this to happen, and as I said upthread in retrospect the fact that this approach worked well for Autarch's other Kickstarter projects didn't mean it was the best choice for Dwimmermount because of the difference between a ruleset collaboration and a single authored work.
The argument about dates matters only if you want to present yourself as having unleashed an elephant and ridden it to victory.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584587Be careful with that ACKS, Eugene.
Be careful what you ACKS for
Quote from: Settembrini;584581JM has a relation die as an excuse? Pretty please. He is a bona fide procrastinator/writers block/depression-in-the-making person.
I think JMal is missing a genuine opportunity here. He has the most popular blog despite the fact he hasn't posted anything interesting in about two years. Even those who are luke warm in their respect for him, like me, would be impressed if he made a few posts addressing how difficult it is to be creative to a deadline. That is a very interesting issue. It is easy to create enough material for our own games a week at a time with sketch notes and maps sufficient for game day, and the game can be of an extremely high quality even if the notes themselves would mystify any other DM.
Few of us care to develop our notes for other DMs to use and when that process goes wrong for someone ... well frankly I find that very interesting, more interesting than the finished product would be for me if the difficulties can be articulated. Why? Because the problem of explaining to some other DM how to run *your* material is the reason why so much of such material is weak in my view.
An even deeper issue and possibly related is the observation that 75+% of gamers appear to be unemployed and/or chronically depressed. If that is what is causing the delay with Dwimmermount then discussing it could be more interesting than the finished book itself.
Quote from: _kent_;584591An even deeper issue and possibly related is the observation that 75+% of gamers appear to be unemployed and/or chronically depressed.
Although it would certainly explain rpgnet
wait
what?
Quote from: Settembrini;58446019th century European ethnocentricism
Nothing new to see here folks, the rational changes but the attitude remains the same.
Quote from: Gib;584594Nothing new to see here folks, the rational changes but the attitude remains the same.
You would say that, EUROCENTRIST!
Quote from: misterguignol;584595You would say that, EUROCENTRIST!
I am the problem the world must solve.
As for the OSR, whatever the fuck that is, enterprise has gradually replaced enthusiasm as its motive force. While enterprise was an acceptable, and even desired element, as a prime mover it is shit and leads to the proliferation of shit.
Quote from: Gib;584597I am the problem the world must solve.
As for the OSR, whatever the fuck that is, enterprise has gradually replaced enthusiasm as its motive force. While enterprise was an acceptable, and even desired element, as a prime mover it is shit and leads to the proliferation of shit.
Pretty much.
But what do I know, I make all my stuff available for free anyway.
You're right, everything is terrible and nobody will ever think up anything good ever again.
Quote from: Zak S;584600You're right, everything is terrible and nobody will ever think up anything good ever again.
Did anyone actually say or imply that? Because, if so...WEIRD!
Quote from: misterguignol;584601Did anyone actually say or imply that? Because, if so...WEIRD!
Please don't tell me you are actually taking this conversation seriously.
Quote from: Zak S;584602Please don't tell me you are actually taking this conversation seriously.
I should have used a smiley or something.
Quote from: misterguignol;584603I should have used a smiley or something.
No, that just fucks up the internet tough guy thing we've got going.
I consider the RPGsite banner to basically be a giant all-encompassing smiley.
Quote from: misterguignol;584599I make all my stuff available for free anyway.
On the off chance I ever finish anything, this is my intent as well. If something is for sale I will follow your lead and donate the money to charity.
Quote from: TristramEvans;584588So...you invested in this kickstarter, and its late. and you're angry. Have you asked for your money back and James refused? I don't understand what could be upsetting you about this otherwise.
Price you pay if you want to play.
Quote from: _kent_;584591An even deeper issue and possibly related is the observation that 75+% of gamers appear to be unemployed and/or chronically depressed.
95% of gamers don't post on online gaming forums. thus 75% is only 75% of 5%
Does having multiple OSR rules hacks really split the fan base that much? For starters, despite the press and recognition it gets, at best these iterations move a few thousand units. That is peanuts compared to the big players in D&D. I wouldn't be surprised if the 1E re-release sold more copies than the entire product of the OSR for that year. That's not even to speak of Paizo or even the worst selling dross from 4E.
So the OSR is relatively small but by and large it IS relatively cashed up when compared to regular gamers. When you also factor in that many OSR products are relatively cheap what you get is people buying multiple rules sets. That is certainly the impression I get on this forum and also with my personal purchases. A lot of the retro stuff can be downloaded for free or at very least previewed extensively. People who like the free stuff are also pretty inclined to then go and purchase the Hardcopy too.
I downloaded the free SWN and liked it so much I bought the Hardcopy of both it and An Echo Resounding. I also have LotFP and DCC in Hardcopy and even a PDF of ACKS. I have run LotFP for over a year (with a couple of things from ACKS) and next up a co DM will be running SWN. I will definitely run DCC in the future. Everything is so cross compatible why not mix and match?
Quote from: Fiasco;584611Does having multiple OSR rules hacks really split the fan base that much? For starters, despite the press and recognition it gets, at best these iterations move a few thousand units. That is peanuts compared to the big players in D&D. I wouldn't be surprised if the 1E re-release sold more copies than the entire product of the OSR for that year. That's not even to speak of Paizo or even the worst selling dross from 4E.
So the OSR is relatively small but by and large it IS relatively cashed up when compared to regular gamers. When you also factor in that many OSR products are relatively cheap what you get is people buying multiple rules sets. That is certainly the impression I get on this forum and also with my personal purchases. A lot of the retro stuff can be downloaded for free or at very least previewed extensively. People who like the free stuff are also pretty inclined to then go and purchase the Hardcopy too.
I downloaded the free SWN and liked it so much I bought the Hardcopy of both it and An Echo Resounding. I also have LotFP and DCC in Hardcopy and even a PDF of ACKS. I have run LotFP for over a year (with a couple of things from ACKS) and next up a co DM will be running SWN. I will definitely run DCC in the future. Everything is so cross compatible why not mix and match?
Because labeling, hyperbole and hysteria are more fun than rational behavior.
Quote from: Ladybird;584507So not "the newer products are better!", but "the newer products provide more explicit support and resources!".
Isn't that the thought process that gave us UA, 2e, and WOTC D&D?
Quote from: Fiasco;584611Does having multiple OSR rules hacks really split the fan base that much?
I don't think so. I think if anything the choices are a good thing, long term. They allow you to cobble together bits from each, and run what you like. In the short term, I think the glut of hacks, in some way resemble the d20 glut early in the century. Too many of the same thing saying the same thing. You have to work harder to find what you like.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584608Price you pay if you want to play.
That's not an answer, just evasive jibberish
Quote from: Fiasco;584611Does having multiple OSR rules hacks really split the fan base that much? For starters, despite the press and recognition it gets, at best these iterations move a few thousand units. That is peanuts compared to the big players in D&D. I wouldn't be surprised if the 1E re-release sold more copies than the entire product of the OSR for that year. That's not even to speak of Paizo or even the worst selling dross from 4E.
I think it does have an effect. You already see complaints on the the more dedicated old-school boards about a level of confusion as to what all the rulesets are about.
It's not bad for existing lifestyle-RPGers, per se. I think it prevents a certain critical mass that would catch attention outside the inner workings of the hobby and make the efforts visible to those who played the games in the past but don't currently and think they are dead systems.
The other consideration is that if it is nothing but positive for old school games, why 3E didn't really go the same route. Pathfinder enjoys the benefits of having such a critical mass, and if people who enjoyed 3E-style could theoretically decide such matters by vote, I don't think they would want a situation where there were dozens of 3E knockoffs each having a fraction of the market. They get the mix-and-match effect from supps while enjoying the benefits of a dominant ruleset. It is curious why old-school games have gone 180 away from that.
And no, I am not delusional to think that if there weren't all the current rulesets that old school games would move a hundred thousand units. Just that whatever that potential maximum is, I doubt the current approach is a path to that.
Has anyone used teeth whitening tape with some success? My teeth are kinda yellow and I think that's why I have undeserved reputation as a sort of jovial villain. I figure you americans should know about white teeth and this tape is quite pricey.
http://www.ehow.com/video_4399722_crest-whitening-strips-work.html
I wouldn't really call Draco Malfoy "jovial".
I listened to some Draco Malfoy on audio and boy is he some kind of snobbish excrescence. My speaking voice is more like Morgan Freeman's, I am a man of the people and I will fight the elite, but I admit to having Malfoy's teeth.
...Potter!
Quote from: _kent_;584620Has anyone used teeth whitening tape with some success? My teeth are kinda yellow and I think that's why I have undeserved reputation as a sort of jovial villain. I figure you americans should know about white teeth and this tape is quite pricey.
http://www.ehow.com/video_4399722_crest-whitening-strips-work.html
This is the second time you are posting pure spam on the board, including a spam link. I warned you once about the consequences of spam on the board. This time is obviously voluntary. I warn you a second time: don't do that again, or I'll consider you a spammer with an intent on disrupting conversation on the site.
Quote from: EOTB;584618The other consideration is that if it is nothing but positive for old school games, why 3E didn't really go the same route. Pathfinder enjoys the benefits of having such a critical mass, and if people who enjoyed 3E-style could theoretically decide such matters by vote, I don't think they would want a situation where there were dozens of 3E knockoffs each having a fraction of the market. They get the mix-and-match effect from supps while enjoying the benefits of a dominant ruleset. It is curious why old-school games have gone 180 away from that.
I think there are a number of reasons. Here are a few:
1) Old school play has always been about "do-it-yourself". Many long time "old school" players have wanted to publish their version of D&D since the 1970s or 1980s.
2) Publishing supplements rather than full games makes great sense if the core rules you'd need to publish just to make your changes are 400-500 pages. If the entire set of rules including monsters and treasure and your changes/additions can fit in 100-200 pages, there is less reason not to just publish the whole game -- especially as a free PDF. With a free PDF there is literally no cost to having everything in one book so peopple do not have to flip between the changes in your supplement and the original rulebook.
3) There does not seem to be the respect for "the RAW" among old school players that there seems to be among 3e players, so there is less objection from players to entire new sets of rules.
Quote from: Benoist;584629This is the second time you are posting pure spam on the board, including a spam link. I warned you once about the consequences of spam on the board. This time is obviously voluntary. I warn you a second time: don't do that again, or I'll consider you a spammer with an intent on disrupting conversation on the site.
You regularly talk boring shit which I consider spam so Im going to point your spam out to you whenever i see it from now on.
...Potter!!!!
Quote from: Fiasco;584611I also have LotFP and DCC in Hardcopy and even a PDF of ACKS. I have run LotFP for over a year (with a couple of things from ACKS) and next up a co DM will be running SWN. I will definitely run DCC in the future. Everything is so cross compatible why not mix and match?
I think mixing and match the TSR D&D rule sets and they ever-growing family of variants is a fine thing. I also think a "free market" in RPGs is the best way to approach a market in RPGs, so I support the idea that if someone wants to create and release a clone or a variant, they have every right to do so.
However, from my point of view, I'm not terribly interested in acquiring more clones of the basically the same system, reading them, grokking what they've changed or added, and then figuring out if and how I want to use that in my D&D game. I'm not saying they shouldn't have released a "complete system," if that's what they wanted to do. I'm not saying it's bad for the D&D hobby, or bad for the market.
All I'm saying is that I'd be more likely to acquire and use their variations and new stuff if it were released as a supplement. And note that doesn't mean *only* as a supplement, necessarily.
An example of what I mean (although not a D&D clone/variant) is the Mythic game system. It's released as a complete game with its own system. But the author/publisher also released a separate version of just the "Mythic GM Emulator" without the complete game system, as well. I think that's a cool way do it. I was curious and bought the Mythic GM Emulator, because it was set up as a plug-in supplement for the game I'm already playing. If it was only available as part of the complete Mythic RPG System, I doubt the author ever would have made a sale, from me.
I'd encourage any clone creators to consider releasing their variations as supplements, as well as bundled into their complete games. I think it's likely to be good for them, as well as good for guys like me.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;584635I'd encourage any clone creators to consider releasing their variations as supplements, as well as bundled into their complete games. I think it's likely to be good for them, as well as good for guys like me.
Is it possible to release a supplement without creating a clone and yet avoid legal problems? If for example someone independently created a magic system and classes which could be used with AD&D, OD&D, and recent clones how do you pitch it in the market?
Could you for example turn your website into a 50 page pdf and sell it?
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;584635I'd encourage any clone creators to consider releasing their variations as supplements, as well as bundled into their complete games. I think it's likely to be good for them, as well as good for guys like me.
That is a very valid point and there have been some excellent supplements produced such as An Echo Resounding which achieves many of the same domain management goals as ACKS but functions as an add on to LL (and thus B/X).
On the other hand Sine Nomine also produced the full rules (with built in default campaign) for Stars Without Number) and I would argue this is a significant enough departure to warrant a complete rules re-write.
There are certainly no legal requirements for producing complete rules sets over supplements.
Quote from: TristramEvans;584615That's not an answer, just evasive jibberish
Not really. I had the money. I felt like spending said money. I'm in it now to the end. After all 2013 is not tat ar away.
IRWS
Quote from: _kent_;584637Is it possible to release a supplement without creating a clone and yet avoid legal problems? If for example someone independently created a magic system and classes which could be used with AD&D, OD&D, and recent clones how do you pitch it in the market?
This is an example of what you speak of:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/104202/A-Curious-Volume-of-Forgotten-Lore
No OGL to speak of. Explicit mention of usability with AD&D, OSRIC, and Labyrinth Lord on the cover.
(There are modules that take a similar approach.)
Quote from: EOTB;584618And no, I am not delusional to think that if there weren't all the current rulesets that old school games would move a hundred thousand units. Just that whatever that potential maximum is, I doubt the current approach is a path to that.
Earlier I stated I had reasons to believe why the multitude of rulesets wouldn't be a long term issue. The biggest is because of the network effect. The popular retro-clones will remain that way because they all enjoy a substantial player base. In Northwest PA there are a lot of players playing Swords & Wizardry because that what I introduce people too. And in the past six months I am seeing gamers show up at local cons and the game store who have used Swords & Wizardry because of the people I originally introduced it too. And it just goes on from there.
Swords & Wizardry along wth OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, and a few other retro-clone enjoy a large and diverse player base that for the foreseeable future will keep growing. Note it is now it not a lock, after all Pathfinder did manage dethrone D&D 4e. People make mistakes when publishing commercially and the right combination of misjudgments and mistakes could sink any of the big retro-clones. But that all that means, that another retro-clone would supplant it and inherits its audience.
Quote from: Guy Fullerton;584641This is an example of what you speak of:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/104202/A-Curious-Volume-of-Forgotten-Lore
No OGL to speak of. Explicit mention of usability with AD&D, OSRIC, and Labyrinth Lord on the cover.
(There are modules that take a similar approach.)
Hmmm. The prevalence of clones made me think you'd get locked up (exaggeration) for saying 'My supplement is for the three core AD&D books'.
Quote from: Guy Fullerton;584641This is an example of what you speak of:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/104202/A-Curious-Volume-of-Forgotten-Lore
No OGL to speak of. Explicit mention of usability with AD&D, OSRIC, and Labyrinth Lord on the cover.
(There are modules that take a similar approach.)
Any time I hear or read "more realistic" in an ad blurb about a fantasy rpg, especially D&D, I cringe a little inside.
You know, Zak, I can say five nice things about you in five different places, and you never appear, one allusion (well, and I did comment on that one YDIS picture, but you did look silly in that, come on) and BANG! there you are.
I will say, for the record, that I think that Zak is a good writer and a decent illustrator, it is just a few other things I don't agree with.
Quote from: _kent_;584637Is it possible to release a supplement without creating a clone and yet avoid legal problems? If for example someone independently created a magic system and classes which could be used with AD&D, OD&D, and recent clones how do you pitch it in the market?
Could you for example turn your website into a 50 page pdf and sell it?
Is it possible, perhaps. A publisher would be advised to talk a intellectual property lawyer. Understand it not just about copyrights, it also about trademarks, trade dress, and several other related concepts.
For example Wizards could sue an publisher for violation of trade dress. That the fact they used AC, HP, THACO, and the entire package of AD&D terms confuses the customer into thinking that it is a officially endorsed product of Wizards of the Coast. Under United State Law, a person/company can't sell a product of their own creation if it confuses a person into thinking that it was made but another person/company. Even if patent, trademarks, or copyright wasn't infringed. Now the problem is knowing what that line is and that what IP Lawyers are needed.
This issues is mitigated by using the D20 SRD and the OGL. Because all the terms mentioned above were released in the SRD.
It is about risk. The OGL greatly reduces the risk of publishing for older editions. If you can handle the risk by affording a IP lawyer, or having no assets worth suing over then you can try to forego using the OGL. But many of us are not in that position, and OGL is what makes it possible for many of us to publish for older editions without putting our homes and assets at risk from a lawsuit from Wizards of the Coast.
Quote from: _kent_;584643Hmmm. The prevalence of clones made me think you'd get locked up (exaggeration) for saying 'My supplement is for the three core AD&D books'.
Sadly, the simple existence of the OGL makes people think that too.
But there are ways for a commercial product to legally indicate compatibility with someone else's trademark, even without a license. Companies and individuals have been doing that for D&D and AD&D for many years.
Quote from: estar;584646A publisher would be advised to talk a intellectual property lawyer. Understand it not just about copyrights, it also about trademarks, trade dress, and several other related concepts.
Yes, agreed, especially with the recommendation to talk to a lawyer.
QuoteThis issues is mitigated by using the D20 SRD and the OGL. Because all the terms mentioned above were released in the SRD.
For completeness, THAC0 isn't covered by the D20 SRD.
QuoteIt is about risk. The OGL greatly reduces the risk of publishing for older editions. If you can handle the risk by affording a IP lawyer, or having no assets worth suing over then you can try to forego using the OGL. But many of us are not in that position, and OGL is what makes it possible for many of us to publish for older editions without putting our homes and assets at risk from a lawsuit from Wizards of the Coast.
While the OGL gives you a safe-ish harbor, it doesn't actually guard against a lawsuit from WotC. Being that they have plenty of money, they could (in theory, and in some, but not all countries) effectively bully you into submission, even if you were in the right.
(It's arguable that that's what TSR did to Mayfair in order to establish their 1984 (IIRC) trademark agreement.)
Also a publisher can potentially be in the wrong, even if they use the OGL. So you really ought to get legal advice either way.
Quote from: estar;584646Is it possible, perhaps. A publisher would be advised to talk a intellectual property lawyer. Understand it not just about copyrights, it also about trademarks, trade dress, and several other related concepts.
For example Wizards could sue an publisher for violation of trade dress. That the fact they used AC, HP, THACO, and the entire package of AD&D terms confuses the customer into thinking that it is a officially endorsed product of Wizards of the Coast. Under United State Law, a person/company can't sell a product of their own creation if it confuses a person into thinking that it was made but another person/company. Even if patent, trademarks, or copyright wasn't infringed. Now the problem is knowing what that line is and that what IP Lawyers are needed.
This issues is mitigated by using the D20 SRD and the OGL. Because all the terms mentioned above were released in the SRD.
It is about risk. The OGL greatly reduces the risk of publishing for older editions. If you can handle the risk by affording a IP lawyer, or having no assets worth suing over then you can try to forego using the OGL. But many of us are not in that position, and OGL is what makes it possible for many of us to publish for older editions without putting our homes and assets at risk from a lawsuit from Wizards of the Coast.
Is it naive to think WotC would just never bother going after the author of an 'AD&D supplement' which is unlikely to sell above 1000 units?
Quote from: _kent_;584649Is it naive to think WotC would just never bother going after the author of an 'AD&D supplement' which is unlikely to sell above 1000 units?
Yes, that would be naive.
Number of copies sold is not necessarily relevant, depending on the sort of issue WotC has with the material.
Quote from: Guy Fullerton;584648For completeness, THAC0 isn't covered by the D20 SRD.
True, but as a mathematical expression it not likely to be protected. But it is more riskier to incorporate it. In fact I would agree that the retro-clones are in a more riskier area than what Paizo did with Pathfinder. But the increase in risk is minimal due to the prevalence of alternative RPGs that were derived from the D20 SRD.
Quote from: Guy Fullerton;584648While the OGL gives you a safe-ish harbor, it doesn't actually guard against a lawsuit from WotC. Being that they have plenty of money, they could (in theory, and in some, but not all countries) effectively bully you into submission, even if you were in the right.
True, but you need to look at the past behavior of Wizards in regards to the OGL as well. For me personally I feel their past behavior doesn't leave me with much concern that they will take any type of action against an OSR publication, unless there is outright copying from older books.
Quote from: Guy Fullerton;584648Also a publisher can potentially be in the wrong, even if they use the OGL. So you really ought to get legal advice either way.
I done that for a few things but invariably it boiled to me explaining to them what is all about. It just not an area where there are a lot of lawyers who understand it.
Basically the rule is simple. don't copy other people's work or look unless you have explicit permission. And even when there is an open license, it just better if you email them and explain what you are doing. You don't have to do this for every thing you use, but for the stuff that is crucial to your product, the courtesy make it work out better in the long run. For example I talked to Matt Finch, the author of Swords & Wizardry, prior to the release of Majestic Wilderlands.
Quote from: _kent_;584649Is it naive to think WotC would just never bother going after the author of an 'AD&D supplement' which is unlikely to sell above 1000 units?
No, because Wizards did just that in the d20 days when people used material they weren't supposed to. For example the proper names of demons and devils that were unique to D&D.
Quote from: Gib;584594Nothing new to see here folks, the rational changes but the attitude remains the same.
My dear "Gib" if that is even your onlinename, it is of course
18th century eurocentrism.
Quote from: Settembrini;584655My dear "Gib" if that is even your onlinename, it is of course 18th century eurocentrism.
You are correct, of course. As for the name, my feelings on it are much the same as yours at this point.
Somewhere upthread, someone suggested tha JM could have been more open with the problems.
In many parts I agree. The negative feelings I have towards JM are 99% fueled not by what he does specifically, but how he goes about it.
Do I care if somebody blathers boring stuff about ARES magazine? Usually I do not. Is it suprrising that converting DM notes into a publishable product takes huge efforts? Been there, done that.
So, to the upthreadian idea I say: if he had the grace to speak openly and with some respect to his audiences intelligence and empathy...and if he had some online-empathy himself...which he does not seem to have...then there would not have been any kerfuffle at all. But now? Heavily censoring his blog?
But the way it has been presented...deception is definitely going on. And again, the xxk$ already on his bank account is the thing that seperates a hobby project in development hell and sympathy for a writers block from deception and fraud.
The more honest kickstarter would have been eerily similiar to what some of the great Old Ones (Kuntz?Mentzer? i forgot) once tried: Pays us for a year and pray we come out with something good.
ADD: And what about the big elephant in the room?
Say JM already was having financial problems? And the money was ARLEADY SPENT? What then?
The cycle
financial problems-desperate measures-depressive moods-inability to work-financial problems -etc.
is a staple of fiction and fact.
Quote from: Gib;584597As for the OSR, whatever the fuck that is, enterprise has gradually replaced enthusiasm as its motive force. While enterprise was an acceptable, and even desired element, as a prime mover it is shit and leads to the proliferation of shit.
Yes, that's a valid distinction, and a damaging attitude. I will gladly pay money for someone's homebrew supplement - but paying money by itself neither interests, nor satisfies me.
Quote from: Settembrini;584660The more honest kickstarter would have been eerily similiar to what some of the great Old Ones (Kuntz?Mentzer? i forgot) once tried: Pays us for a year and pray we come out with something good.
Anyone whose answer wasn't
"Nice try, Rob!" or
"So why can't you leverage your fame as the co-author/editor of the best-selling RPG product, ever to get some starting capital?" deserves to get milked for all their money's worth.
Also, Eldritch Entertainment.
Quote from: estar;584653True, but you need to look at the past behavior of Wizards in regards to the OGL as well. For me personally I feel their past behavior doesn't leave me with much concern that they will take any type of action against an OSR publication, unless there is outright copying from older books.
Past behavior is not necessarily relevant, especially given that the OGL insulates more from copyright issues (for which the IP owner has more leeway about picking & choosing its defenses), but only barely insulates from trademark issues (for which the IP owner has no choice but to aggressively defend).
As an illustrative, hypothetical example (not that I feel WotC was/is setting up to do this), while WotC took no action against OSRIC in the time since its 2006 release, WotC could choose to take action against OSRIC _now_, specifically because its existence might undermine their sales of the AD&D premium reprints. And while, yes, OSRIC is based on the OGL, it is also a superset of the OGL, and the OGL affords no protection for copyright infringements of other material that is not explicitly covered by the OGL. So if WotC felt they could eliminate OSRIC on the grounds that it infringed their copyright on AD&D, they could attempt to do so in 2012, even though they chose not to do so in 2006.
Again: That's a totally hypothetical example where I'm illustrating a stance that does not necessarily represent my own viewpoint/opinion. Obviously there are a number of reasons why this sort of defense might be hard to pull off. It's just an example.
Quote from: Melan;584663Anyone whose answer wasn't "Nice try, Rob!" or "So why can't you leverage your fame as the co-author/editor of the best-selling RPG product, ever to get some starting capital?" deserves to get milked for all their money's worth.
Also, Eldritch Entertainment.
Here here. As I recall even Dragonsfoot gave Eldritch Entertainment short shrift when they were begging for money/free websites, etc.
I would also like to point out Kevin Siembieda. Look at HIS track record. Track record of GETTING THINGS DONE. Everytime he has more ideas than time. But if I look at the bookshelves...JMs contributions pale utterly in comparison.
Also, Kev's kickstarters indeed have been successes and product and extras were delivered on time.
Consider that before you shit on Palladium the next time...
Quote from: Settembrini;584678I would also like to point out Kevin Siembieda. Look at HIS track record. Trac k record of GETTING THINGS DONE. Everytime he has miore ideas than time. But if I look at the bookshelves...JMs contributions pale utterly in comparison.
Also, Kev's kickstarters indeed have been successes and product and extras were delivered on time.
Consider that before you shit on Palladium the next time...
Palladium's doing Kickstarters? :eek:
Also, this has got to be a joke. Even in an industry characteristic in which disregard towards deadlines in endemic, Palladium is infamous for its delays of years. Mechanoid Space, anyone?
This thread made me import my signature from dragonsfoot. :) Never had a sig here before...
Lots of talk about ACK here, and I feel qualified to contribute to that discussion because I got an unsolicited free copy from the authors by email and this thread inspired me to read it.
In the interests of giving you a fair and balanced review, I did find some stuff on pages 117 and 118 that might actually make it into my own game.
I mean, my first impression was that the system is clearly misnamed. If I'd written a book called Adventurer Conqueror King, it would involve adventuring, conquering, and being king. This system ought to be called Manager Merchant Landlord, which is what it's actually about. Adventuring doesn't seem to come into the equation at all. Despite the authors' penchant for extreme detail, including for example seven pages about mundane equipment, they haven't written word one about dungeons or exploring or all that boring stuff that appears in other games. They've skipped straight onto the subject they love:- resource management.
Anyway, after marvelling at the price tag, I skimmed over stuff I'd already read hundreds of times, and indeed written myself at least twice, before I made it as far as the first custom PC class. The Bladedancer. I quickly determined that what this means is "druid chick", and moved on. My right eyebrow crept upwards as I encountered the Dwarven Vaultguard and Dwarven Craftspriest. Then I read about the Elven Spellsword, and Elven Nightblade, at which point I had to stop and send out a search party for my eyebrow, since it had not stopped rising and was now lost somewhere above my hairline.
Once my facial features had recovered from this surreal excursion, I skimmed on, to Chapter IV: Proficiencies. I noticed the existence of a Dwarven Vaultguard Proficiency List but could not read about it as my retinas went on strike and refused to process the World of Warcrafty crap before them, and thus temporarily severed their link to my visual cortex. I was able to resume normal reading at page sixty, but then noticed the existence of the proficiencies of Dwarven Brewing and Elven Bloodline. At that point I did the only thing I could do: I threw my laptop out of the window, shouting obscenities at the top of my voice.
Once I had had the computer repaired and apologised to the passing harmless elderly lady with the keyboard imprint on her face, I skipped on to the combat section. Oh look, there's a Mortal Wounds table, and a Tampering with Mortality table that appears to replace the resurrection survival chance. In an interesting and innovative twist, it now seems that being resurrected can now succeed, fail, or turn you into a vegetarian.
Special manoeuvres: Sunder. I decided it was safer not to read that. I've never read 3e but I still know a feat when I see one.
Chapter 7: Campaigns. This is sposed to be the high point of the system, so I decided to check it out more carefully. Some detailed-looking rules for magic item creation by high-level PCs. Magical research throw. This looks like a cash-sink, designed to incentivise player characters to build their magical research libraries at a cost of tens of thousands of gold pieces, and oh look they'll need a castle to put it in. This is somewhat worthwhile, and desperately in need of a suitably hilarious Spell Research (Critical Failure) Table for the DM's amusement. Pages 117 and 118 are worth reading.
Establishing strongholds! How to attract peasants to your service. Expenses. Realms and vassals. Chaotic domains, Dwarven vaults, Elven fastnesses. Hideouts and Hijinks for the thieves and assassins---AHA! This is something that actually leads to adventures! Apparently once you have a Hideout, you get opportunities for Hijinks. Which means you can be offered the chance to perform... assassinations... rumour-gathering... spying... stealing... oh. Nothing that isn't already commonplace in D&D-derived rulesets, then. They do have a system for resolving them! You roll against the relevant skill and then collect your reward. There's a table.
Taking over a criminal guild. (You roll and add your Charisma modifier, Diplomacy, and Intimidation. There's a table.) Then, building sanctums and dungeons. (Apparently mages do this in order to harvest parts from monsters. This presumably leads to the mage giving lowbie adventurers quests such as "bring me ten mummy wrappings and I'll pay you 100gp". Another place where the authors may have been channelling world of warcraft?)
Mercantile ventures. Jesus Christ, I knew this was familiar, do you remember Book 2 from Traveller? Someone published these rules in 1977. These guys have converted them to a percentile system, turned the starports into towns and space into roads and starships into wagons, and then republished. So your adventuring party can buy (rolls) a couple of bags of tea in Freeport for 150gp and sell them in Kingstown for (rolls) 162gp! Rock on!
Apparently in ACK you get experience for this. Provided it doesn't exceed your Class Level GP Threshold, of course. There's a table.
Monsters. Nothing new here. Oh wait, there's a Phase Tiger. No, that's just their name for Displacer Beast, there really is nothing new here. Oh wait, there's a Skittering Maw (centipede with the head of a shark). One new monster. 54 pages of text, which they're charging you for, and all you get is a Skittering Maw. But the picture of the griffin eating the hobbits is slightly amusing.
Magic items. Nothing new here. No, wait, there's something new. There's a page about buying and selling magic items. A table called Magical Transactions By Item Class.
Chapter 10: Secrets. Here's a lot of tables about how to build a campaign world exactly like the authors'. Would have been more worthwhile if well-thought-out or original. Oh, and special rules for making high-level player characters so you can skip over all the boring dungeoneering and get straight down to the merchanting and management!
-----
Sarcasm aside, the basic problem with Manager Merchant Landlord is that the authors do not have clue #1 about how real Feudal Kingdoms worked which introduces massive anomalies and problems. They may know a bit about Ancient Rome (hence having rules for slaves but not for serfs, for example), but they don't understand the basic mediaeval paradigm. You don't "attract" peasants into your fucking service! Their population figures are totally borked (tens of millions of families? Really??) but they clearly indicate that peasants are not a scarce resource. Even if you did need to "attract" peasants, you wouldn't do it by making "agricultural investments" of tens of thousands of gp or holding "festivals". You'd build houses with safe water supplies in communities that include schools and hospitals.
Overall, this is a game of mediaeval economic management written by people who don't understand mediaeval economics, superimposed on an admittedly tightly-written retro-clone. If you can secure a free copy, pages 117 and 118 may inspire a mildly useful house rule or two. I have no clue why anyone would drop the RRP of $40 on it.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584579QuoteAnd can you explain why you're claiming that these dates are "typos" given that both of these dates are, in fact, completely accurate?
Where is the 1 and 2 on a keyboard? Sadly, since you are so perfect and probably never made a mistake it must be incomprehensible for you that someone could very easily transpose two numbers while typing. In addition, if you feel that a transposing of numbers invalidates my argument, no matter how much you yell, rant or rave, you will not get me to admit my transposing of 1 and 2 as anything more than just that.
But there was no transposing of numbers. The dates you posted were accurate. Tavis' update was the 10th. Robert's post was on the 20th. Can you explain why you keep claiming that these dates are "typos" when both of these dates are, in fact, completely accurate?
For a pathological liar, you are remarkably bad at lying.
Quote from: Settembrini;584575Any damage to your own reputation is worth real money! So, why don't you do damage control and explain why you did not deliver the full product you promised for over a year? From a superficial scan I see you have some art difficulties?
I won't engage a tu quoque fallacy, but since you're asking independently here's the short version (which can also be found on my website):
The reason I went to crowdfunding was in order to pay for the art in the final book. Because of that, I was always very clear that (a) backers would immediately get access to a beta rulebook that didn't include the final art and (b) the final books would be published when the art was finished.
Because I was looking for money to fund art, I thought it would make a good funder reward to feature their player characters in one of the art pieces. In order to do that, I approached an artist and got a quote for what those pieces would cost. Based on that quote, I priced out the appropriate reward level.
Once the funding was completed, all the backers got the beta version of the rulebook I had promised. But then the artist who had committed to the specific funder reward pieces flaked.
I looked for another artist who could complete the pieces at the quoted price, but couldn't find anyone. So I contracted an artist at a much higher price and covered the difference out of pocket. (To be clear, however: Money was only due on delivery, so no money has actually been lost in any of this.) This second artist also flaked.
The problem is that it takes a long time to realize and deal with the fact that you've got a flaking artist. So months are dragging by.
Right now, I've got two different artists each working on a two different sets of pieces that will cover my legal obligations to my funders. (The additional expense of which will be covered out of my pocket.) As long as one of these artists completes their commission, we'll be moving forward. If they both flake, then I'll be looking to issue refunds to the specific backers in question and we'll move forward.
There's also an unrelated problem with two different artists flaking on the character sheet for the book. But that hasn't been holding up production of the final product.
Lessons I've learned: Don't promise specific backer rewards unless you've got 100% control over your ability to deliver those rewards.
Lesson I learned before launching this project: Don't promise a specific release date unless the creative work is done and in the bag. This is a lesson I learned back in 2008 with L&L. Which is why I didn't set a final release date for L&L and I won't set one until I have the final art lined up and ready to go.
It should be noted that while it's easy to say that my reputation is somehow "on the line", that's not really true. You're imbuing that lying sack of shit with too much authority. None of the people actually backing my project have questioned my integrity. The people who have contacted me with the most frustration over this situation are, in fact, those who didn't fund the project and wish they had some way to get access to the Black Book Beta.
Best therpgsite thread ever.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584683But then the artist who had committed to the specific funder reward pieces flaked.
This is astoundingly commonplace. Want to know why so many RPG books have subpar art? It's because those artists are good enough, and can deliver the commissioned pieces by the promised deadline.
Writers, game designers, and artists who can hit a deadline with unerring reliability don't need to be geniuses to be successful. A certain amount of professionalism and a drive to produce on time go a long way towards making them hirable prospects.
(Or, at least, so I have been told by both publishers and editors of newspapers, magazines, and RPGs.)
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;584686This is astoundingly commonplace. Want to know why so many RPG books have subpar art? It's because those artists are good enough, and can deliver the commissioned pieces by the promised deadline.
Writers, game designers, and artists who can hit a deadline with unerring reliability don't need to be geniuses to be successful. A certain amount of professionalism and a drive to produce on time go a long way towards making them hirable prospects.
(Or, at least, so I have been told by both publishers and editors of newspapers, magazines, and RPGs.)
I think anybody who has freelanced in any industry and built a client base can attest to this. Success is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, as the saying goes. (Or 10% inspiration? Whatever.)
This James M episode is very interesting for me. I, like most people, have had 'personal problems' from time to time, but they have never affected my day job; if anything they've made me more focused on it. This is a pattern I recognise in others, too. (An ex-girlfriend of mine back at university, for example, lost both her parents in the space of a year, and she coped with it by studying harder and got a better degree than almost anybody else.)
But I certainly have been in a position where, because of other things going on in my life, the last thing I want to do is play D&D, or blog about it. So I get that: sometimes, for one reason or another, you just don't feel like you want to be creative.
The problem for James M is that, the moment he got paid $40,000 or whatever it was to get Dwimmermount finished, it ceased being a hobby that he could just say "I don't fancy doing that today" about, and became a day job that he ought to focus on getting completed. If he'd stopped blogging and playing Google+ games because of his personal problems, on the other hand, I suspect people like IRWS would have been much more forgiving.
That said, I don't have a horse in the race, so what do I know?
So far as I know he's working away, it's just taking a while, it's not like he stopped.
Writing creative material isn't like mowing lawns--the more ambitious the project the less predictable the real deadline is.
In the end, if it's really good when it's done then all this will seem like a footnote. If it's not, well people will feel like they got taken no matter how long it took to come out.
If every single extra week it takes means the project gets that much better than it was supposed to be, then that's great, and if backers don't think it is, then they can just ask for their money back and they'll get it.
And man, proofreading takes forever and ever and ever and ever, especially on RPG stuff because there's an extra layer of detail-agreement to do. I wouldn't want anybody at Autarch to rush the editing just on account of people getting antsy.
Quote from: Zak S;584690So far as I know he's working away, it's just taking a while, it's not like he stopped.
Writing creative material isn't like mowing lawns--the more ambitious the project the less predictable the real deadline is.
In the end, if it's really good when it's done then all this will seem like a footnote. If it's not, well people will feel like they got taken no matter how long it took to come out.
If every single extra week it takes means the project gets that much better than it was supposed to be, then that's great, and if backers don't think it is, then they can just ask for their money back and they'll get it.
And man, proofreading takes forever and ever and ever and ever, especially on RPG stuff because there's an extra layer of detail-agreement to do. I wouldn't want anybody at Autarch to rush the editing just on account of people getting antsy.
Fair points all. But you can get creative projects done quicker with the carrot of being paid, which I think is the problem with Kickstarter in general - you're giving away the carrot before anything's done. I don't think for a single second that I'd be much more productive than James if somebody had already given me forty grand to work on what I was doing, instead of promising it to me after I'd finished.
Quote from: noisms;584692Fair points all. But you can get creative projects done quicker with the carrot of being paid, which I think is the problem with Kickstarter in general - you're giving away the carrot before anything's done. I don't think for a single second that I'd be much more productive than James if somebody had already given me forty grand to work on what I was doing, instead of promising it to me after I'd finished.
Maybe I have a different point of view because in the art business people get paid up front like this all the time in grants and commissions.
And you do the work and you turn it around and you want it to be good because you like it and because you want to be able to be trusted to do it again so you get to do it more.
I think if James has another RPG project in him (which I'm guessing he does, he seems to like writing game stuff and the enthusiasm for the kickstarter was encouraging) I'm guessing he'll want to put his best foot forward.
I mean, that doesn't obviate the possibility of a titanic screw-up, but I think it's fair to say he's not real motivated to make writing for and about RPGs
less fun or lucrative for himself by dropping the ball.
Quote from: Zak S;584693Maybe I have a different point of view because in the art business people get paid up front like this all the time in grants and commissions.
And you do the work and you turn it around and you want it to be good because you like it and because you want to be able to be trusted to do it again so you get to do it more.
I think if James has another RPG project in him (which I'm guessing he does, he seems to like writing game stuff and the kickstarter was encouraging) I'm guessing he'll want to put his best foot forward.
I mean, that doesn't obviate the possibility of a titanic screw-up, but I think it's fair to say he's not real motivated to make writing for and about RPGs less fun or lucrative for himself.
Some people are honestly just more hard working and conscientious than others. I'm not one of those people. Put it this way: I got paid a considerable wad of cash at the beginning to complete a PhD and it's taken me a year too long.
But I've been paid large sums on completion of translation projects (which are not as creative as writing a PhD, but by no means lacking in creativity requirements) and never once missed a deadline.
Some people just really need that carrot.
Quote from: noisms;584694Some people are honestly just more hard working and conscientious than others. I'm not one of those people. Put it this way: I got paid a considerable wad of cash at the beginning to complete a PhD and it's taken me a year too long.
But I've been paid large sums on completion of translation projects (which are not as creative as writing a PhD, but by no means lacking in creativity requirements) and never once missed a deadline.
Some people just really need that carrot.
Some people need the carrot.
I don't think this is what's going on though, I think what's going on is:
1. Holy fuck writing for print is way harder than writing a blog
2. Holy fuck explaining this dungeon to other people is way harder than me just knowing it
3. Holy fuck if I want this to be good I have to include this and this and this
4. Holy fuck these things all need stats
5. Holy fuck art work from people in different time zones
6. Holy fuck dungeons are harder to edit than almost any other kind of prose because each thing refers to some off-screen thing
7. Holy fuck this happened while I playtested it, I better fix that.
I'm just thinking 12 dungeon levels is like...5-6 Vornheims ? And that was almost all one person doing everything including the art--no phone calls or do overs or re-edits or changing stuff because the pictures don't match the prose and vice versa.
I can see it taking some surprising time even without resorting to conspiracy theories or psychiatric evaluations. Dungeons with all the i's dotted and T's crossed are a bitch to put together.
Quote from: Zak S;584695Some people need the carrot.
I don't think this is what's going on though, I think what's going on is:
1. Holy fuck writing for print is way harder than writing a blog
2. Holy fuck explaining this dungeon to other people is way harder than me just knowing it
3. Holy fuck if I want this to be good I have to include this and this and this
4. Holy fuck these things all need stats
5. Holy fuck art work from people in different time zones
6. Holy fuck dungeons are harder to edit than almost any other kind of prose because each thing refers to some off-screen thing
7. Holy fuck this happened while I playtested it, I better fix that.
I'm just thinking 12 dungeon levels is like...5-6 Vornheims ? And that was almost all one person doing everything including the art.
I can see it taking some surprising time even without resorting to conspiracy theories or psychiatric evaluations. Dungeons with all the i's dotted and T's crossed are a bitch to put together.
I agree in part, sure. But paid deadlines do also focus the mind: with financial pressure, deciding what to include, chasing people up about art work, proofreading, etc. suddenly become surprisingly easier. There really is something about a little bit of stress that gets the creative juices flowing - I know about that first hand.
I'm not trying to criticise James, here - he seems like a genuinely nice guy. I think basically what I'm trying to say is that Kickstarter works better for some personality types than others.
(As an aside, a completed manuscript for Dwimmermount could, I think, be professionally proofread for less than $500, depending on length. A trained monkey can do it, and I know because I was one of those trained monkeys once.)
Quote from: _kent_;584637Is it possible to release a supplement without creating a clone and yet avoid legal problems?
I'd say, yes, it's possible. Depending on the supplement (and the author/publisher's comfort zone with the legal questions, gray areas, and risk) it wouldn't even necessarily need to use the OGL. If the nature of the supplement allows this, you could reference it as compatible with Advanced D&D (and acknowledge that this is a trademark owned by WotC). This is the approach that Kenzer took with their 4e Kalamar book. They didn't use the OGL or the GSL, they were just careful what they put in there and they were careful to acknowledge WotC's trademarks when they claimed compatibility.
Another option is to use the OGL and leverage an existing clone. That is, release an "OSRIC supplement" (or whatever). Or just use the OGL straight-up without referencing any clones or WotC system other than the d20 SRD. Change the stats and such to taste, and release it as a "First Edition Fantasy RPG Supplement" or a "Classic Fantasy RPG Supplement" or whatever.
QuoteIf for example someone independently created a magic system and classes which could be used with AD&D, OD&D, and recent clones how do you pitch it in the market?
If you've done it without the OGL and are comfortable that you're not infringing on any copyrights or trademarks (or patents, but I doubt that would apply), you can promote it as an "AD&D compatible" or "D&D compatible" supplement. And you must acknowledge the ownership of those trademarks, et cetera, to indicate that you aren't challenging them.
If you're more comfortable with the OGL as a legal "safe harbor," then you can't claim compatibility or mention the WotC trademarks, so you'd either promote it using one of the clones ("For Labyrinth Lord and Other Fine Game Systems"), or you'd promote it with a generic but meaningful description ("For First Edition Fantasy Games").
QuoteCould you for example turn your website into a 50 page pdf and sell it?
Easily, I'd say. Most of that is commentary. With some editing, I could probably publish most it without the OGL, even referencing "D&D" as long as I acknowledged it as a trademark owned by WotC.
If I went the OGL route I'd probably be on safer legal ground with some of the more rules-oriented material, but I'd have to remove all references to WotC-owned trademarks, which would be kind of annoying.
(My site is currently down, though. I was planning on moving to a different hosting provider and re-working the layout and stuff, but haven't gotten around to it. There's nothing new on it, anyway. It's been static for a long time.)
Quote from: _kent_;584649Is it naive to think WotC would just never bother going after the author of an 'AD&D supplement' which is unlikely to sell above 1000 units?
I'd say it depends on the nature of the infringement that WotC is claiming. If it is a
trademark infringement, then WotC is pretty much legally obligated to make an issue of it once they become aware of it. Not doing so could cause them legal problems down the road (i.e., they could be accused of abandoning their mark).
If it's a copyright issue, then it's less likely that they'd bother, but there's no guarantee.
Quote from: Settembrini;584678Also, Kev's kickstarters indeed have been successes and product and extras were delivered on time.
I thought the last two where now way overdue?
Quote from: P&P;584681Overall, this is a game of mediaeval economic management written by people who don't understand mediaeval economics, superimposed on an admittedly tightly-written retro-clone.
While certainly Tavis can jump in, I want to address this for the general case.
So what? So what it that it it is a poorly written medieval economic simulation. D&D is not a game about simulating medieval life, nor it ever was. Because D&D was so abstract at depicting medieval it inspired the author of Chivalry & Sorcery to write an RPG they felt was. The same with the combat system which was one of the main drivers behind the creation of Runequest.
Look at the economic system in the DMG, B/X and the OD&D books. The better question is does ACKS build on the ideas of economic in those rulebook?
ACK now seems utterly pointless. It does not want to simulate D&D economy and it does not want to be historical. So it's about nothing.
@Justin Alexander:
Thank you very much for the answer, I think that was more beneficial to your position than being repetitive vs IRWS...
...so IRWS, why the attack on JA, when his project's problems seem to be of a totally different sort than having to do with non-delivery or deception about the work done so far.
@Zak S
Why would you defend JM, are you selling sth together? This reeks of something...
Quote from: Settembrini;584712...so IRWS, why the attack on JA, when his project's problems seem to be of a totally different sort than having to do with non-delivery or deception about the work done so
I was simply pointing out that he might not be so innocent with his rabid defense of Jim. The more he played the Internet tough guy the more I felt he was deflecting for a reason. I mean if I'm a troll ignore me, right?
In addition. I clicked the links in his sig and found out about his crowd sourcing that way. It took me all of two minuets.
In my mind no art is worth holding up a project. If he's missing only two pieces, why hold up releasing? You could fulfill your obligations and down the line put the art in.
For me, if you take money and promise to deliver x by y, you have to deliver x by y. Period. Do not go live unless you know you an do this.
Nearly every industry hits deadlines. They do so by keeping a schedule. The Jim situation could ave been avoided if there was a clear idea of how much needed to be done, and a realization that no matter how much you wish it to be true, he set deadline was not practical due to the lofty expectations the creator put on it.
In the above case, holding release for a year due to two missing art pieces is a silly reason to not honor your obligations.
If I do a kickstarter for Dwimmerdust, you can bet your ass I will do so with a product ready for print. I would never take money and not deliver on a promise. I will also make damn sure my schedule was realistic.
IRWS
Quote from: estar;584709Look at the economic system in the DMG, B/X and the OD&D books. The better question is does ACKS build on the ideas of economic in those rulebook?
Certainly it builds on them. But I think the "better question" is whether the game needs or benefits from that degree of economic management. The answer to which may vary from group to group but from my perspective it's certainly a pretty long way away from what my group would want or indeed anything that I think vaguely resembles fun.
The very rudimentary economics that Gary wrote basically use money as a way of keeping score. GP = xp, job done. That's what they're for. Sure, successful player characters end up with enormous piles of gold that they've got nothing to spend on, but does it benefit from building on?
And this business of (for example) taking over a criminal guild being done with a roll and a table lookup. All resolved in less than one minute flat. Instead of, say, meeting up with the criminals and figuring out who's in charge and getting to them and... persuading them to retire, a session or two's worth of adventuring, you roll on a table.
The only explanation for these things that I can see is that the system's actively designed to skim over adventuring scenarios. Presumably so as to get back to the investment and mercantile trading.
Clearly I'm not the target market. :)
Quote from: I run with scissors;584717In addition. I clicked the links in his sig and found out about his crowd sourcing that way. It took me all of two minuets.
This is one of those typos that provides genuine amusement. Is French dancing a method of divination for you?
Quote from: I run with scissors;584717If I do a kickstarter for Dwimmerdust, you can bet your ass I will do so with a product ready for print. I would never take money and not deliver on a promise. I will also make damn sure my schedule was realistic.
IRWS
So all of this is just a genius pre-launch marketing campaign for Dwimmerdust? ;)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;584719This is one of those typos that provides genuine amusement. Is French dancing a method of divination for you?
Yes.
Two things:
1. I type on the iPad. Not an excuse, but a simple statement of fact.
2. As I mentioned on my blog, am writing all of this as a stream of conciseness. Taking a page from beat writers such as Jack Kerouac and Alan Ginsberg, I am writing this as a I go. I simply sit and write what I want. I do not revise, and once I am done, I hit submit. That's it.
By doing this, I open myself up to ridicule, but to be honest with, if I could not handle it, why would I take the IRWS persona?
IRWS
Quote from: noisms;584721So all of this is just a genius pre-launch marketing campaign for Dwimmerdust? ;)
Hell if I know. Dwimmerdust and my Retro Retro started as a dare. I've been dared to finish Dwimmerdust and do a kickstarter. For me all work has three motivations:
1. Spite
2. For the fun of it.
3. Proving it can be done.
As long as I am having fun, I will do it.
Dwimmerdust has no plan, hell it is spontaneous in its' creation. I'm crafting my legendary dungeon as it comes to me.
IRWS
Quote from: noisms;584721So all of this is just a genius pre-launch marketing campaign for Dwimmerdust? ;)
That's sorta what I figured too.
That said, this is the most entertaining thread I've read here in years.
I'd have some thoughts on the matter being discussed, I guess, if I were to think hard enough about it, but I can't be bothered to because this whole issue Just Doesn't Matter. At All.
Still, entertaining. Keeps me amused on a Sunday morning while sipping coffee. Carry on!
Quote from: Joethelawyer;584724That's sorta what I figured too.
That said, this is the most entertaining thread I've read here in years.
I'd have some thoughts on the matter being discussed, I guess, if I were to think hard enough about it, but I can't be bothered to because this whole issue Just Doesn't Matter. At All.
Still, entertaining. Keeps me amused on a Sunday morning while sipping coffee. Carry on!
I absolutely agree.
Quote from: P&P;584681Sarcasm aside, the basic problem with Manager Merchant Landlord is that the authors do not have clue #1 about how real Feudal Kingdoms worked which introduces massive anomalies and problems. They may know a bit about Ancient Rome (hence having rules for slaves but not for serfs, for example), but they don't understand the basic mediaeval paradigm. You don't "attract" peasants into your fucking service! Their population figures are totally borked (tens of millions of families? Really??) but they clearly indicate that peasants are not a scarce resource. Even if you did need to "attract" peasants, you wouldn't do it by making "agricultural investments" of tens of thousands of gp or holding "festivals". You'd build houses with safe water supplies in communities that include schools and hospitals.
Overall, this is a game of mediaeval economic management written by people who don't understand mediaeval economics, superimposed on an admittedly tightly-written retro-clone. If you can secure a free copy, pages 117 and 118 may inspire a mildly useful house rule or two. I have no clue why anyone would drop the RRP of $40 on it.
I'm no expert but I'm fairly sure that, when they deviated from a historical Medieval paradigm, they did so the better to reflect the baseline assumption of D&D: a world in which civilization lies in small "islands" surrounded by an "ocean" of monster-haunted wilderness.
The standard ACKS campaign assumption seems to be that PCs travel to the Bog of Doom, clear out the Temple of the Blood God of its monstruous tenants and ancient wealth, get a royal charter or title of nobility at 9th level and use the accumulated treasure to build a keep; this in turn attracts settlers who go about tilling the soil or raising livestock or whatever, and voilà! the forces of Civilization once more triumph over Barbarism. At least until some disgruntled orc warlord (or evil high priest of the secret Blood God cult of the swamp folk, or elder black dragon which lairs just over the Black River, or the elder nobleman whose lands border on the Bog of Doom) feels threatened by the young enclave and decides to teach your high level noveau-riche adventurers an object lesson in not fucking with monsters.
It's a great model, one that hearkens back at least to the D&D Companion set (at least as presented in the Rules Cyclopedia, where I first read about it) and one which works like a charm for a roleplaying game. It's probably not a great emulation of the High Middle Ages in England or whatever, but it's good enough and amazingly consistent for a sword-and-sorcery rags-to-riches saga like Conan's (the Platonic ideal of the fantasy adventurer who starts out as a Young Turk with a sword and an attitude, and ends up deciding the fate of nations.
As for the adaptation of Traveller rules, it was originally published in one of the old "Known World" (later Mystara) D&D Gazetteers (not sure if Republic of Darokin or Kingdom of Ierendi), and I don't think PCs would be too thrilled to import tea from fantasy-London to fantasy-Paris. On the other hand, something like the Silk Road, or the Age of Sail's long and perilous sea trade routes (and even a bit of piracy), would make for a kick-ass merchant-adventurers(-pirates?) sort of campaign.
The autarch website has a design blog which goes into some depth with reagrds to some of the authors' assumptions about fantasy economics. I've found this post (http://www.autarch.co/blog/starting-ground-part-ii) (which speaks of conciling Companion set and Arneson's Blackmoor economic assumptions with historical data) very insightful.
Quote from: P&P;584681I mean, my first impression was that the system is clearly misnamed. If I'd written a book called Adventurer Conqueror King, it would involve adventuring, conquering, and being king. This system ought to be called Manager Merchant Landlord, which is what it's actually about.
:cheerleader:
Quote from: P&P;584718And this business of (for example) taking over a criminal guild being done with a roll and a table lookup. All resolved in less than one minute flat. Instead of, say, meeting up with the criminals and figuring out who's in charge and getting to them and... persuading them to retire, a session or two's worth of adventuring, you roll on a table.
The only explanation for these things that I can see is that the system's actively designed to skim over adventuring scenarios. Presumably so as to get back to the investment and mercantile trading.
Beg to differ. From the sagas of old to
The Man Who Would Be King to
The Hour of the Dragon, taking a crown and holding on to it has been the stuff of high adventure.
But I agree that if you can't see the fun in taking over a kingdom of thieves' guild (where any "persuasion" probably won't get done at a neat oak table with fancy words, but in shadowy alleys and with poisoned daggers), you're absolutely not the target audience.
Which is cool, by the way. I can certainly see the merit in dealing with economics and politics without getting into as much detail. I'd even point you towards An Echo, Resounding (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/99063/An-Echo,-Resounding%3A-A-Sourcebook-for-Lordship-and-War) which came out at about the same time, and which deals with some of the same things in a more abstract and rules-lite manner.
But I don't think characterizing ACKS as "glossing over" adventuring is a fair or true assessment.
Quote from: Settembrini;584712@Zak S
Why would you defend JM, are you selling sth together? This reeks of something...
I am pretty much just having the conversation I would have with noisms if we were talking about
anybody who got a grant and then was taking longer than expected. Noisms is a smart guy and I have liked talking to him about stuff for 3 years.
Like i said, in the art business this is a really common thing and is rarely seen as a sign of anything alarming.
Quote from: The Butcher;584737Beg to differ. From the sagas of old to The Man Who Would Be King to The Hour of the Dragon, taking a crown and holding on to it has been the stuff of high adventure.
But I agree that if you can't see the fun in taking over a kingdom of thieves' guild (where any "persuasion" probably won't get done at a neat oak table with fancy words, but in shadowy alleys and with poisoned daggers), you're absolutely not the target audience.
Uhhh . . . that's actually P&P's point. Taking over a thieves guild, or anything else, should involve more than a die roll.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584740Uhhh . . . that's actually P&P's point. Taking over a thieves guild, or anything else, should involve more than a die roll.
But there's no "take over the guild" table that I could find.
There
is a "what happens
when you take over the guild" table, which is essentially the guild henchmen's reaction roll to the new management (p. 140), and which is the only "take over the guild" table I could find.
The subsystems presented in ACKS, as far as I could discern, all seem designed to complement, rather than replace adventuring, and if anything, take it into new and interesting directions. Some people don't want hard and fast rules for these things and I understand this. But I just don't understand what is it that you and Stuart read into ACKS that suggests to you that the rules somehow downplay adventuring in favor of bureaucracy; that's not what I get from reading and re-reading the campaign rules, quite the contrary.
Quote from: The Butcher;584743But there's no "take over the guild" table that I could find.
There is a "what happens when you take over the guild" table, which is essentially the guild henchmen's reaction roll to the new management (p. 140).
Yes, ACKS is trying to answer the question - what's happening around the characters ? - rather than the DM winging it. Not that I see winging it as inferior.
Quote from: Sean !;584746Yes, ACKS is trying to answer the question - what's happening around the characters ? - rather than the DM winging it. Not that I see winging it as inferior.
Agreed. Hell, I don't see why someone can't use only some of these subsystems, and wing the rest.
Quote from: Zak S;584739Like i said, in the art business this is a really common thing and is rarely seen as a sign of anything alarming.
This ain't the art business.
Quote from: The Butcher;584743But there's no "take over the guild" table that I could find.
I believe he's referring to "Change in Management," p. 140.
Quote from: Zak S;584739Like i said, in the art business this is a really common thing and is rarely seen as a sign of anything alarming.
Um, gee, I hate to break it to you but this business is either one of two things:
1. Publishing
2. A hobby
Yeah, see it is publishing. The sooner more people realize that when you take the money (via a kickstarter) it stops being a hobby and becomes a business.
If you want to do this as a hobby, cool, and that is great. Yet, if you want to do this a "job" treat it as a job.
Simplistic?
Fuck no.
In no ways what we do is art.
IRWS
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584752I believe he's referring to "Change in Management," p. 140.
:rolleyes:
That's the one I referred to in my post, and like I said, it's not a "take over the organization" table. It's a "what happens
when you take over the organization"; a reaction roll, really.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584753Um, gee, I hate to break it to you but this business is either one of two things:
1. Publishing
2. A hobby
Yeah, see it is publishing. The sooner more people realize that when you take the money (via a kickstarter) it stops being a hobby and becomes a business.
If you want to do this as a hobby, cool, and that is great. Yet, if you want to do this a "job" treat it as a job.
Simplistic?
Fuck no.
In no ways what we do is art.
IRWS
I don't think Zak means it in a high falutin' "RPGs are art" sense. I think he just means in the art industry it is common to get commissions or advances before delivery.
And that, by the way, is reasonably common in publishing too: I don't believe many novels are written on a payment-on-delivery basis, except for those submitted on spec.
I have concerns about Kickstarters, but I'm sure they can work well when the person involved is extremely conscientious. Not everybody is, though.
Quote from: noisms;584761And that, by the way, is reasonably common in publishing too: I don't believe many novels are written on a payment-on-delivery basis, except for those submitted on spec.
I have concerns about Kickstarters, but I'm sure they can work well when the person involved is extremely conscientious. Not everybody is, though.
In this I agree, but even in publishing, internals are maintained to ensure the trains run on time. Robert Jordan was a writer who took a long time to write. Tor did not solicit a book to the book trade until manuscript was in house and the editor knew it could be kicked into production. They did not say:
"Hey Bob, we're going publish volume 127 of the Wheel of Boredom at year's end. It's March. We good, right?"
Writing and game designing is creative. I get and accept it. Creatives have poor time management and mercurial attention spans. It is up to the publisher to have a clear idea of what they want, and if they can do what they want.
IRWS
Quote from: noisms;584761I don't think Zak means it in a high falutin' "RPGs are art" sense. I think he just means in the art industry it is common to get commissions or advances before delivery.
And that, by the way, is reasonably common in publishing too: I don't believe many novels are written on a payment-on-delivery basis, except for those submitted on spec.
Not sure we want to extrapolate Zak's experiences in the decorative arts to publishing. Plenty of novels do receive an "advance" but remember, while this is often used as a completion stipend, it's really an advance against future royalties. It's a deposit the publisher pays out of what it expects the author's share of sales will be -- paid before the books are printed.
The artistic commission or grant, on the other hand, is usually more of a true stipend to fund creation and delivery of the work.
But Dwimmermount has taken in $48,000 along with the requirement to print and distribute at least 600 print copies. Is this money an "advance" on future royalties? Unlikely, because the person paying the advance isn't the publisher. Is it a pre-order? Gamers seem very invested in telling me no, it is not.
Maybe that $48,000 truly is more of a stipend and the backers could be considered "art patrons." Good to think about!
Quote from: The Butcher;584737Beg to differ. From the sagas of old to The Man Who Would Be King to The Hour of the Dragon, taking a crown and holding on to it has been the stuff of high adventure.
But I agree that if you can't see the fun in taking over a kingdom of thieves' guild (where any "persuasion" probably won't get done at a neat oak table with fancy words, but in shadowy alleys and with poisoned daggers), you're absolutely not the target audience.
Hm. I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. The assumption the game seems to be based on is that there is a start of a game that is basically classic D&D with dungeon and wilderness adventures, the accumulation of wealth that allows you to get a domain or zone of influence in the campaign world, and then the development of those holdings as the campaign's end game, where you basically administer the land and become "king".
I think the tools provided are not emulative of the middle ages the way a Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe tried to be (that d20 sourcebook is awesome, btw), and can work if as a DM you can fill in the blanks and make the role playing and situations happen around the die roll(s) to take over the thieves' guild. It's similar in that sense to the Assassination tables of AD&D, and I don't see a critical problem with that.
Now some things do make me cringe when I look at the structure of the game and what it glosses over.
Quote from: The Butcher;584737But I don't think characterizing ACKS as "glossing over" adventuring is a fair or true assessment.
Let's look at the book.
Chapter 7 is the domain management stuff per se. There's actually a lot of ideas to lift from that chapter for a D&D campaign, like the harvesting of stuff to build your magical power, the construction of holdings, etc etc. It's good stuff for the peripheral events in the campaign the PCs can influence through their domains, and what their domains, lackeys, magical stuff does in the game, the consequences that come from it, a tie to experience and the core of the game itself, etc. I think there's a LOT of merit to this part of the game.
Now, the part about adventuring per se is Chapter 6: adventuring. Dungeon adventures are covered in less that one page and half. Exact same thing about the Wilderness. Nowhere does it explain how to come up with a wilderness map, how to populate it, add adventuring locations etc etc (you need to go into Chp. 8 for that). The chapter then does into sea travels, Encounters, surprise and reaction rolls, combat, damage, etc. But nowhere does it explain how that stuff is used, what the adventuring context is, and how you build it.
You need to go to Chapter 8 Secrets to get instructions on how to build dungeons and wilderness. The methodogies for the wilderness are about hexes maps, domains included, population. The dungeon how-tos cover types of environment, stocking, placing monsters, traps, wandering monsters. Is that sufficient to come up with a dungeon environment when you don't know how to do it because you've never played yourself or you played other games with the D&D sticker on it and have no clue about old school play?
Tavis was talking earlier about how the status of Dwimmermount as "legendary" goes back to the start of the "OSR hobby". I think he alluded to the purpose of ACKS in that context as well, that the game is intended for an audience that's not really familiar with OS play as such, to reintroduce the fun it presents to modern audiences, an evengelization goal, in other words.
Well. The question that should immediately come to mind is: how much good can the game do in that sense if it assumes you already know the old school campaign structures and methodologies to bring it to life? Either you have never played D&D, in which case you need to go hunt for such clues online, sample maps and the like, or read other games and whatnot, or you are familiar with say, 3rd and 4th ed and will be let to assume that the structures of dungeon play of these editions work in the OS context, so you're going to build 5 room lairs in a string with tactical encounters with feats and squares and stuff. Is that really OS dungeon play? Fuck no, IMO. So... how helpful is the game to reintroduce OS style gaming? Or was it addressed solely to the OSR audience from the start?
I think there's a valid debate to have around these issues.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584763In this I agree, but even in publishing, internals are maintained to ensure the trains run on time. Robert Jordan was a writer who took a long time to write. Tor did not solicit a book to the book trade until manuscript was in house and the editor knew it could be kicked into production. They did not say:
"Hey Bob, we're going publish volume 127 of the Wheel of Boredom at year's end. It's March. We good, right?"
Writing and game designing is creative. I get and accept it. Creatives have poor time management and mercurial attention spans. It is up to the publisher to have a clear idea of what they want, and if they can do what they want.
IRWS
*cough*GeorgeRRMartin*cough*
Quote from: econobus;584766Not sure we want to extrapolate Zak's experiences in the decorative arts to publishing. Plenty of novels do receive an "advance" but remember, while this is often used as a completion stipend, it's really an advance against future royalties. It's a deposit the publisher pays out of what it expects the author's share of sales will be -- paid before the books are printed.
The artistic commission or grant, on the other hand, is usually more of a true stipend to fund creation and delivery of the work.
But Dwimmermount has taken in $48,000 along with the requirement to print and distribute at least 600 print copies. Is this money an "advance" on future royalties? Unlikely, because the person paying the advance isn't the publisher. Is it a pre-order? Gamers seem very invested in telling me no, it is not.
Maybe that $48,000 truly is more of a stipend and the backers could be considered "art patrons." Good to think about!
Interesting point, and probably accurate. I don't mind thinking of it that way - I've backed a grand total of 1 Kickstarters, for Vincent Baker's
Seclusion of Orphone, and I guess I look at it that way: I'm paying him to just keep on keeping on, because I think he's great.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584763In this I agree, but even in publishing, internals are maintained to ensure the trains run on time. Robert Jordan was a writer who took a long time to write. Tor did not solicit a book to the book trade until manuscript was in house and the editor knew it could be kicked into production. They did not say:
"Hey Bob, we're going publish volume 127 of the Wheel of Boredom at year's end. It's March. We good, right?"
Writing and game designing is creative. I get and accept it. Creatives have poor time management and mercurial attention spans. It is up to the publisher to have a clear idea of what they want, and if they can do what they want.
IRWS
Keep in mind lots of game publishers dont come from a publishing background. Lots of them are learning as they go and it is something of an accepted norm for the industry. I know nothing on the case in point here just making the general observation that delays are pretty common for RPGs. Also sometimes publishers end up with a choice between putting out crap on time or delaying in order to do release something more solid.
Quote from: noisms;584769*cough*GeorgeRRMartin*cough*
Definitely. This reminded me of how relatively "big" advances work, by the way, so I hope you don't mind the footnote.
GRRM probably got about half his advance when the deal was signed and then the rest in one or more installments for meeting manuscript milestones. No milestone, no check. When and if that last draft shows up, he gets that last advance check and the publisher can start pre-selling to recoup its investment.
So yes, the traditional publishing advance system involves pretty significant payment-on-delivery. Naturally gaming will vary, but I believe some publishers who track royalties will pay some "advance" upon receipt of ms.
Quote from: noisms;584769*cough*GeorgeRRMartin*cough*
Again the publisher is as much at fault than the writer. It takes two to tango, if you will. The publisher, knowing how slow Martin is, should not solicit anything until they are sure it will be out on time.
I realize, and accept, shit happens. No matter how much planning you do, things do happen. However, that does not mitigate the responsibilities of both the creatives and publisher to know if they can meet deadline.
IRWS
Quote from: noisms;584771Interesting point, and probably accurate. I don't mind thinking of it that way - I've backed a grand total of 1 Kickstarters, for Vincent Baker's Seclusion of Orphone, and I guess I look at it that way: I'm paying him to just keep on keeping on, because I think he's great.
Thanks. It's a different model and I think more constructive because it lets the talent monetize their celebrity in more service-oriented ways (access, interaction, collaboration) than the now-standard "pay $500 extra to get it with leather interiors" product-driven reward approach.
Who knows if it's too late to help Dwimmermount, but good for the future.
Quote from: Zak S;584695Some people need the carrot.
I don't think this is what's going on though, I think what's going on is:
1. Holy fuck writing for print is way harder than writing a blog
2. Holy fuck explaining this dungeon to other people is way harder than me just knowing it
3. Holy fuck if I want this to be good I have to include this and this and this
4. Holy fuck these things all need stats
5. Holy fuck art work from people in different time zones
6. Holy fuck dungeons are harder to edit than almost any other kind of prose because each thing refers to some off-screen thing
7. Holy fuck this happened while I playtested it, I better fix that.
I'm just thinking 12 dungeon levels is like...5-6 Vornheims ? And that was almost all one person doing everything including the art--no phone calls or do overs or re-edits or changing stuff because the pictures don't match the prose and vice versa.
I can see it taking some surprising time even without resorting to conspiracy theories or psychiatric evaluations. Dungeons with all the i's dotted and T's crossed are a bitch to put together.
You are right - a delay would not be unusual, especially for a typical OSR blogger for whom this would be an entrance into converting stuff to publishable form.
But in a way your post mischaracterized what those who are upset are upset about. It is that practically all those things should not have been pitfalls for James as an industry veteran. If someone with extensive credits tells you in November that they are done with something, and then tells you in April that you're going to have something in 2 months, where he is at now doesn't add up. Work did come to dead-stop, for understandable reasons, which compounded things.
It isn't that the books are likely to never get finished.
Well, that and the continuing censorship from James on the issue, and his reluctance to actually directly engage people who paid in an arena of discussion. Even in this industry, that's atypical. It gives the impression that James is willing to discuss games, and humbly receive praise, but even if he takes your money and fails to deliver, he is not to be criticized. Tavis has done an admirable job in the project manager capacity, and by taking (and responding to) the grief that James is not willing to engage.
So all the things you said are true, and all of them have almost no relation to why the upset people are upset.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;584772Keep in mind lots of game publishers dont come from a publishing background. Lots of them are learning as they go and it is something of an accepted norm for the industry. I know nothing on the case in point here just making the general observation that delays are pretty common for RPGs. Also sometimes publishers end up with a choice between putting out crap on time or delaying in order to do release something more solid.
I realize that, but can you not agree that no matter how little background you have in publishing, you should be able to know what you can accomplish in the time you have?
I am sorry, I refuse to accept that a publisher would undertake a project without performing a little pre planning to learn:
1. State of manuscript
2. Could creative complete project in given time
3. Pad in extra time to ensure the trains are running on time
I am not asking for a hobbyist to to act like a big person publisher, but I am asking them to work within their means and think before they act. If they do choose to act, once you take money **cough** $48,000 **cough** realize that you are now a business and you will need to act like one.
Furthermore, I am very tired of the buyer's being made to feel as if they are the wrong. The last time I checked, a gamer did not set the due date, they did not take the money, they did not assume the risk. The publisher does. You tell the gamer, we will give you X on Y, don't act shocked that the gamer wants X on y, not on z.
IRWS
Quote from: Benoist;584767Tavis was talking earlier about how the status of Dwimmermount as "legendary" goes back to the start of the "OSR hobby". I think he alluded to the purpose of ACKS in that context as well, that the game is intended for an audience that's not really familiar with OS play as such, to reintroduce the fun it presents to modern audiences, an evengelization goal, in other words.
Well. The question that should immediately come to mind is: how much good can the game do in that sense if it assumes you already know the old school campaign structures and methodologies to bring it to life? Either you have never played D&D, in which case you need to go hunt for such clues online, sample maps and the like, or read other games and whatnot, or you are familiar with say, 3rd and 4th ed and will be let to assume that the structures of dungeon play of these editions work in the OS context, so you're going to build 5 room lairs in a string with tactical encounters with feats and squares and stuff. Is that really OS dungeon play? Fuck no, IMO. So... how helpful is the game to reintroduce OS style gaming? Or was it addressed solely to the OSR audience from the start?
I think there's a valid debate to have around these issues.
Perhaps old-school games built by and for people who completely dislike 3E are the boundary patroller games.
As I said upthread, I think it interesting that I see more discussion about ACK on the big purple and enworld than I do on solely old-school boards. If you're going to evangelize, it is most efficient when you don't ask the people converting to leave all their customs and mores behind. It's why Christmas is celebrated on December 25th, for example. But it enlarges the market for the game, because while for old-schoolers there is a very real risk of "not unique enough to make me convert", for WotC and Paizo players, that is not true.
So perhaps it's a blend that fuzzes these areas so that theoretically, both camps could apply what they know to fill in the blanks.
"Tastes great!"
"No, less filling!"
I'm going to actually reread the ACKS parts on the dungeon and wilderness to make up my mind on this.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584780I am not asking for a hobbyist to to act like a big person publisher, but I am asking them to work within their means and think before they act. If they do choose to act, once you take money **cough** $48,000 **cough** realize that you are now a business and you will need to act like one.
Water under the bridge now, but it seems like bonus goals and high-level reward tiers are becoming part of the problem.
I'm thinking about that project that met its goal and was apparently already done before a few high-level backers showed up with associated special handling needs that ate the project alive.
It would've been nice if the Dwimmermount campaign was structured in such a way that it actually CUT OFF funding after it met its goal and either moved late backers onto a true "pre-order" list or returned the excess money.
I know that sounds crazy, but for a project that wants to remain in hobbyist land, it actually makes sense. James would've gotten the $10k he said he needed to cover his development costs, as well as pre-order deposits and ultimately the profits as he sold through the print run. (I'm assuming that was the plan, but for all I know they were planning on printing to backer demand.) He'd be a normal hobby publisher and nobody could even wonder where the "extra" $38k was going.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584780Furthermore, I am very tired of the buyer's being made to feel as if they are the wrong. The last time I checked, a gamer did not set the due date, they did not take the money, they did not assume the risk. The publisher does. You tell the gamer, we will give you X on Y, don't act shocked that the gamer wants X on y, not on z.
I hear you there. The autarch thread made me a little nauseous, gamers eager to blame themselves and each other for backing this project. If I had the time I'd create a role-playing game called GAMEPRO and charge people money to pretend to be "freelancers" and "star bloggers" and "patrons" and "half-elf publishers." Come to think of it, though, that's how the industry already works.
Quote from: noisms;584761I don't believe many novels are written on a payment-on-delivery basis, except for those submitted on spec.
The general case for novels is that the advance (a percentage of Royalties) is payed out in three installments:
1.) 1/3rd on signing of contract for the book. Typically, this involves submission of a sample chapter and a description of the rest of the book.
2.) 1/3rd on acceptance of the manuscript. Book is written, and has gone through an editing/rewriting cycle with the author's agent.
3.) 1/3rd upon publication. Book is finished, has gone through a rewrite cycle with the publisher's Editor, and has gone through a final proofreading pass with a proofreader (the author having a day or two to review those notes and either accept or "stet" them).
This is the standard procedure for novels, unless something very unusual is going on.
I don't know the exact costs of some things in publishing, but it seems that $48,000 can get you a lavish product if you spend your money carefully, especially if you only needed $10,000 to get it off the launching pad. If Dwimmermount is ever released, it should look pretty good.
Quote from: econobus;584790It would've been nice if the Dwimmermount campaign was structured in such a way that it actually CUT OFF funding after it met its goal and either moved late backers onto a true "pre-order" list or returned the excess money.
So in short a patronage type deal. This would have taken care of a lot of problems.
QuoteI know that sounds crazy, but for a project that wants to remain in hobbyist land, it actually makes sense. James would've gotten the $10k he said he needed to cover his development costs, as well as pre-order deposits and ultimately the profits as he sold through the print run. (I'm assuming that was the plan, but for all I know they were planning on printing to backer demand.) He'd be a normal hobby publisher and nobody could even wonder where the "extra" $38k was going.
Or ideally, he could have been given some money up front, sort of a good faith type investment. He could then be told, go write it and finish it. Then launch said campaign, get the first printing out to the backers, as well as begin selling to those who did not take part in the campaign.
QuoteI hear you there. The autarch thread made me a little nauseous, gamers eager to blame themselves and each other for backing this project. If I had the time I'd create a role-playing game called GAMEPRO and charge people money to pretend to be "freelancers" and "star bloggers" and "patrons" and "half-elf publishers." Come to think of it, though, that's how the industry already works.
Gamer Stockholm Syndrome. That is what you describe above.
IRWS
Quote from: Benoist;584767Hm. I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. The assumption the game seems to be based on is that there is a start of a game that is basically classic D&D with dungeon and wilderness adventures, the accumulation of wealth that allows you to get a domain or zone of influence in the campaign world, and then the development of those holdings as the campaign's end game, where you basically administer the land and become "king".
That's what I said (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=584733&postcount=598) upthread.
Quote from: Benoist;584767I think the tools provided are not emulative of the middle ages the way a Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe tried to be (that d20 sourcebook is awesome, btw),
You know, so many people are referring to this book I might just pick it up and give it a look. Does it get into domain management territory?
Quote from: Benoist;584767and can work if as a DM you can fill in the blanks and make the role playing and situations happen around the die roll(s) to take over the thieves' guild. It's similar in that sense to the Assassination tables of AD&D, and I don't see a critical problem with that.
Only that's not what the table in question does. Egads, am I the only one here who's actually read the book?
Quote from: Benoist;584767So... how helpful is the game to reintroduce OS style gaming? Or was it addressed solely to the OSR audience from the start?
I think there's a valid debate to have around these issues.
Now this is a fair point. I came to ACKS already somewhat familiar with old school adventuring; I didn't really give the dungeon and wilderness hexmap generation bits a fair shake, or even a proper read.
Then I again, I do recall the old Mentzer D&D books, and retro-clones like S&W and LL being similarly minimalistic. To the best of my recollection, only AD&D 1e gets into the detail you mention.
Quote from: Benoist;584789I'm going to actually reread the ACKS parts on the dungeon and wilderness to make up my mind on this.
That makes two of us. :)
Quote from: I run with scissors;584794So in short a patronage type deal. This would have taken care of a lot of problems.
Sure. A big tip jar, no folderol about "reward tiers" and "bonus goals." Help me make it, and when I do, you get a free copy.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584794Or ideally, he could have been given some money up front, sort of a good faith type investment. He could then be told, go write it and finish it. Then launch said campaign, get the first printing out to the backers, as well as begin selling to those who did not take part in the campaign.
That kind of transparency would be cool but the discipline there would've had to come from him. Basically anything above the $10k would shift from the "help me make Dwimmermount" hobby bucket into some kind of corporate "now I'm a business" bucket.
No support for that kind of thing on KS yet but maybe it's time there was. [sly smirky face, I can never get those to work]
Quote from: I run with scissors;584794Gamer Stockholm Syndrome. That is what you describe above.
Yeah, I knew you had a phrase for it. Whatever it is when you're so hungry to mingle with the "professionals" that you'll do whatever mental gymnastics it takes to straddle the gap between the fans and the creative. Mary Sue, meet Patty Hearst.
Check your private messages, econobus (top of the page, the button that says in red "new PM").
Quote from: econobus;584798Sure. A big tip jar, no folderol about "reward tiers" and "bonus goals." Help me make it, and when I do, you get a free copy.
This would take care of a lot of problems with not just this project, but the hobbyists as well. Plus, it would set expectations low enough, that there is not a need for a deadline, per say. Simply communicate with your patrons, and get to work.
QuoteThat kind of transparency would be cool but the discipline there would've had to come from him. Basically anything above the $10k would shift from the "help me make Dwimmermount" hobby bucket into some kind of corporate "now I'm a business" bucket.
Which is why I feel Kickstarters are not suited for hobbyists, unless they want to make a go at shifting from hobbyist to professional. You are an inventor who tinkers in your workshop and have created a product so good, that people buy it. You realize that you can sell more, but need the capital to do so. You launch a kickstarter.
A kickstarter, in my view, does not work with creative types, for the most part.
QuoteYeah, I knew you had a phrase for it. Whatever it is when you're so hungry to mingle with the "professionals" that you'll do whatever mental gymnastics it takes to straddle the gap between the fans and the creative. Mary Sue, meet Patty Hearst.
Yup. I plan on fleshing it out fully over at Dwimmerdust. I have a blog post that is about half way there.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584801Which is why I feel Kickstarters are not suited for hobbyists, unless they want to make a go at shifting from hobbyist to professional.
I'm sometimes told this is exactly what Kickstarter is for: start-up capital to turn a fun idea into a commercial reality. Unfortunately, it's also an area where Kickstarter actively refuses to get involved as a traditional business incubator, so the hobbyist can find himself with a lot of cash and no idea how to put it to use.
Stage 1, collect the underpants. Stage 2, hold the Kickstarter. Stage 4, business.
[...]
Dwimmerdust scares me a little because as a snapshot of this insane thing we call "game" it could turn out being really, really good. No pressure or anything.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584801Which is why I feel Kickstarters are not suited for hobbyists, unless they want to make a go at shifting from hobbyist to professional. IRWS
Other way around. Kickstarter is for hobbyists, and its not suited for backers who expect hobbyists to be like professional printers.
Quote from: econobus;584811Dwimmerdust scares me a little because as a snapshot of this insane thing we call "game" it could turn out being really, really good. No pressure or anything.
Dwimmerdust scares me, because of what it has become. Spite is a good motivator, and the more I work on it, the more fun I have. All I know, the content generation is easy. The lack of the plan has helped me greatly.
IRWS
Quote from: TristramEvans;584814Other way around. Kickstarter is for hobbyists, and its not suited for backers who expect hobbyists to be like professional printers.
From Kickstarter:
QuoteWhat's Kickstarter?
Kickstarter is a funding platform for creative projects. Everything from films, games, and music to art, design, and technology. Kickstarter is full of ambitious, innovative, and imaginative projects that are brought to life through the direct support of others.
Since our launch on April 28, 2009, over $350 million has been pledged by more than 2.5 million people, funding nearly 30,000 creative projects. If you like stats, there's lots more here.
Source: http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#WhatKick (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#WhatKick)
Quote...Kickstarter's model combines investment and charity: typically, donors get some benefit in return for their gifts, such as copies of the movies or music produced, shares in a rooftop farm, or contact with artists.
Source: http://www.technologyreview.com/review/422132/start-me-up/ (http://www.technologyreview.com/review/422132/start-me-up/)
You take money, you stop being a hobbyist. In the end I agree that there should be an end to online panhandling (http://gawker.com/5858118/end-online-panhandling-forever).
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584763In this I agree, but even in publishing, internals are maintained to ensure the trains run on time. Robert Jordan was a writer who took a long time to write. Tor did not solicit a book to the book trade until manuscript was in house and the editor knew it could be kicked into production. They did not say:
"Hey Bob, we're going publish volume 127 of the Wheel of Boredom at year's end. It's March. We good, right?"
There are places in the world where they build airports with that attitude...
Quote from: The Butcher;584758That's the one I referred to in my post, and like I said, it's not a "take over the organization" table. It's a "what happens when you take over the organization"; a reaction roll, really.
Yes, a single reaction roll which applies to, "batches of 5, 10, 25, or even 100 [npcs] where appropriate."
Quote from: I run with scissors;584826From Kickstarter:
(snip)
None of which disputes what I said.
QuoteYou take money, you stop being a hobbyist.
No, you start a company and begin making enough profits to owe taxes or hire employees, you stop being a hobbyist. Setting up a lemonade stand in your front lawn doesn't make you a business entrepreneur
QuoteIn the end I agree that there should be an end to online panhandling (http://gawker.com/5858118/end-online-panhandling-forever).
IRWS
Which is of course ridiculous. People should be prevented from an activity because a few other people don't want to participate?
Quote from: TristramEvans;584840Setting up a lemonade stand in your front lawn doesn't make you a business entrepreneur
Tell that to Susie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywmkR5lcSxI).
Quote from: econobus;584790I know that sounds crazy, but for a project that wants to remain in hobbyist land, it actually makes sense. James would've gotten the $10k he said he needed to cover his development costs, as well as pre-order deposits and ultimately the profits as he sold through the print run. (I'm assuming that was the plan, but for all I know they were planning on printing to backer demand.) He'd be a normal hobby publisher and nobody could even wonder where the "extra" $38k was going.
Is there a faction of folks that are worried about this?
I mean, my only concern about the money that someone makes on this is that whatever portion is required to deliver the backer "rewards" is used to do that. If a successful Kickstarter can net the creator a fat wad of cash after meeting their financial responsibilities for the project, then, awesome.
I mean, isn't that part of what this is all about? Making some money on a good idea?
Quote from: TristramEvans;584840Which is of course ridiculous. People should be prevented from an activity because a few other people don't want to participate?
According to the douche author, yes.
Unsurprising, though, given the inferred "Awwww, poor independent filmmakers are being overlooked or edged out on Kickstarter because it's not exclusive to hipster jackasses that want to make a documentary about some shit nobody cares about" comment in the article.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584826You take money, you stop being a hobbyist. In the end I agree that there should be an end to online panhandling (http://gawker.com/5858118/end-online-panhandling-forever).
As opposed to the panhandling that involves begging rich people for money?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital
Or begging for money from your mom and dad, relatives, or a rich friend?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_investment
Oh the poor benighted common man just isn't capable of handling a financial decision involving an investment in somebody's idea. We must be protected from our own stupidity.
Like my gatekeeper comment on the number of retro-clone, think about what you are saying. Do you really want the traditional way of raising capital to remain THE way? The only way? That if you had a good idea that the only method is to go and beg rich people? Where do you think the capital for most new businesses comes from?
Venture capitalists are just as prone to fads and suckers as anybody else. Just as anal (or nice) as the next person
http://www.paulgraham.com/venturecapital.html
Should we be Pollyannas about Kickstarter of course not. It new, people are still figuring out the best way of protecting both the creators and customers. But at it core Kickstarter is a damn good idea, one that I welcome. And now I seen it in operation I rather not do without it even if I never start a project myself. Because I think in the end this is a communication technology that the Internet enables that will change our lives for the better.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;584837Yes, a single reaction roll which applies to, "batches of 5, 10, 25, or even 100 [npcs] where appropriate."
You're shifting the goalposts here, and I'm sorely tempted to conclude that you're not arguing in good faith.
I'm baffled by this assessment on ACKs. I wish I owned it, as I already love Birthright. But from the previous topic we had about ACK v. (I forgot the other game already) I didn't get the impression that ACKs was doing anything all that different, just readjusted.
Has anyone here played Birthright? You adventure all the time, but you also *must* delegate all the time -- because you can't be all places at once. So you can, and often do adventure, role playing out important scenes. But for things delegated to your functionaries you roll off against a target number (v. ACKs charted table, I guess). And the player is given the choice when to do so. If a player prefers to "adventure out" diplomatic negotiations or mercantile contracts over cleaning out a bandit lair, that's their choice (and it may surprise some here that has been the predominant choice from my players).
What is so problematic about this? Some prefer to play the role of haggle bills of lading for materiel acquisition instead of going into "another fucking underground lair," (direct player quote. The other was even better: "Combat? Fuck combat."). The conquerors and kings remembered as competent were the ones who could keep their victories.
And about dungeons and wilderness info being part of the package: AD&D 1e PHB DMG, Dungeoneer Guide, Wilderness Guide, Campaign Sourcebook & Catacomb Guide, etc. Seriously, you could waste your time rewriting that stuff which people can already get, or you could get on with the business of making your product a reason why I'd buy it. Even if you did waste your time rewriting that stuff, how many in the OSR community would piddle on it comparing how it failed to compare with past versions. Just shut up and point people to past products that are going to be labeled the gold standard regardless of how much effort you put into such sections. If players want it, they'll find it. If they don't want it, they'll never miss it.
Ok so I reread Chapters 6 and 8 on the wilderness and dungeons. Chapter 8 is the one with the real meat here, since this is where you get the actual methodology to create an hex map, include some locations of adventure including dungeons of different sizes and purposes, and the get down to building thos dungeons per se. The whole affair seems rather dogmatic to me, but not badly explained either. Two things jumped to me as I reread these sections: (1) the lack of concrete examples is here kind of glaring, by which I mean you have occasionally a fictitious GM come up with his sandbox bit by bit as the steps are all laid out progressively, but this doesn't seem concrete like if two sample hex maps following the steps as outlined at the beginning of the chapter, and one sample dungeon with graph paper map had been included with the rather terse advice there, and (2) the dungeon part which basically assumes you're going to get dungeon maps and lairs from magazines and the web and only occasionally build your own, which here basically means randomly populating rooms and the like.
So the bottom line is that there is a top down methodology to the sandbox explained, that there is some advice and generators included for the dungeon, but mostly due to the lack of concrete examples of application of the guidelines and a rather puzzling method of dungeon generation, I'm not sure it brings the full set of tools to the fledging GM and and basically teaches the right stuff here.
Quote from: kythri;584852Is there a faction of folks that are worried about this?
Haven't seen much focused worry on Dwimmermount but I have seen some back sass about how James must be living large on the profits and a fair amount questioning the margins built into corporate Kickstarters like OGRE.
Those campaigns are done. What gets me bloviating now is whether shifting "excess" funding to a pre-order format or simply disclosing profits might help future campaigns avoid the backtalk -- especially when the reward process hits a snag and people wonder where "their" money went.
Because if it's about profit, I agree, it's awesome to rake in fat cash -- just don't tell me you're a hobbyist if you screw it up, because if you make the profit, you're a business. And if you're truly a hobbyist, tell me that too, and back it up by working out a system to redistribute any profit you accidentally make back to the backers.
Theoretically the premium rewards and bonus goals should be the way that redistribution happens. I suspect the Dwimmermount margins on the big packages aren't extremely high, myself. But the average fan can't tell. They see a book that cost an estimated $10k to produce taking in $48k before it hits the press, they're going to wonder where their book is.
Quote from: estar;584864Oh the poor benighted common man just isn't capable of handling a financial decision involving an investment in somebody's idea. We must be protected from our own stupidity.
Be nice. All "corporate" game publishers were started on friends & family funding and over a long enough time line nearly all of them have gone bust. Even so, F&F will always be a more attractive way for true capital -- as opposed to philanthropists -- to play this theme than Kickstarter will ever be.
If you want to "invest" in a game idea, approach creative and buy in.
If you're creative, get the "common man" to Kickstart you up in exchange for a free copy down the road. You keep all the profits and he can feel proud of being a patron of the arts.
Maybe there should be a Careerstarter website.
"Hey, I wanna be a full-time RPG designer. My target number is $30,000! Help me out and then I'll get some Kickstarter projects going and you can help me fund those too."
Quote from: Endless Flight;584886Maybe there should be a Careerstarter website. "Hey, I wanna be a full-time RPG designer. My target number is $30,000! Help me out and I'll then I'll get some Kickstarter projects going and you can help me fund those too."
That's that "sly wink" emoticon I was looking for. I see a bold new world ahead, gentlemen and ladies. Kickstarter Consultants. [EDIT TO ADD: Kickstarter Pay-for-Click Content Farming. Kickstarter Outsourced Fulfillment Services.] Kickstarter Insurance. Kickstarter Ratings Agencies. Kickstarter Incubators. Kickstarterstarters.
Those who survive will be RICH!
Quote from: noisms;584692I don't think for a single second that I'd be much more productive than James if somebody had already given me forty grand to work on what I was doing, instead of promising it to me after I'd finished.
This is mostly tangential to what you're saying here, but I think one interesting aspect of Kickstarter's methodology is that it tends to create the impression that the people behind them are getting a lot more money than they really are. (Because there are, of course, costs associated with delivering the rewards.)
For example, my project on 8-Bit Funding pulled in $3,800. How much of that is going into my pocket when all is said and done? -$5,000. (Art and printing are expensive, yo.)
I'm sure JM is keeping a healthier personal profit line from his $48,000 kickstarter than I am from mine. But, ultimately, printing hundreds of books and paying for art and cartography are expensive.
I think a lot of people see "$48,000 kickstarter" and think "wow, he just earned my yearly salary for doing this book". But, in reality, that's not what happened. Once the expenses are paid, JM will take home only a small fraction of the total amount displayed on the Kickstarter homepage for his project.
Quote from: Settembrini;584460True story, recently an American scientist[!] asked me how to calculate the volume 100 000 tons of water have...
when I started to explain that a 1x1x1m cube is a ton = 1000kg = 1000l of water of water, he replied "that can't be true, my pickup is a 3.5 ton truck and the freight area is much longer" ...etc. etc.
So he ignores and denies any merit of the metric system because of his mental image of his pickup truck. I shit you not.
You
are aware that American scientists use the metric system, right? Either the person you were talking to wasn't a scientist, or you are embellishing the facts.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584893You are aware that American scientists use the metric system, right? Either the person you were talking to wasn't a scientist, or you are embellishing the facts.
I think he must have meant an American Scientologist
Quote from: TristramEvans;584840No, you start a company and begin making enough profits to owe taxes or hire employees, you stop being a hobbyist. Setting up a lemonade stand in your front lawn doesn't make you a business entrepreneur
You do realize that under United States tax code money generated via Kickstarter must be declared. As an independent contractor you are exempt up to $700, and anything above that has to be declared.
So if you bring in $48,000 in a kickstarter campaign, you will have to declare that. With this much money you would be better off incorporating, in order to protect your personal assets from any business wrong doings.
I'm just a troll, so what do I know.
QuoteWhich is of course ridiculous. People should be prevented from an activity because a few other people don't want to participate?
You can do what you want, but you cannot expect to not be considered performing the activities of a business when you bring in funds in such an amount that it bankrolls your project.
IRWS
Quote from: estar;584864As opposed to the panhandling that involves begging rich people for money?
The link was just a highlight to the other way of thinking. I do not subscribe to it.
QuoteShould we be Pollyannas about Kickstarter of course not. It new, people are still figuring out the best way of protecting both the creators and customers. But at it core Kickstarter is a damn good idea, one that I welcome. And now I seen it in operation I rather not do without it even if I never start a project myself. Because I think in the end this is a communication technology that the Internet enables that will change our lives for the better.
I agree. My belief however is that if you are going to do something like this, you must at least think in terms you are business. Taking money up front, instead of after a product is done, brings with it much risk.
IRWS
QuoteBecause if it's about profit, I agree, it's awesome to rake in fat cash -- just don't tell me you're a hobbyist if you screw it up, because if you make the profit, you're a business. And if you're truly a hobbyist, tell me that too, and back it up by working out a system to redistribute any profit you accidentally make back to the backers..
Making a profit doesn't automatically make it into a business. There are alot of other factors to make that determination. The distinction between hobby and business is a legal one, and is between them and The IRS.
In any case, I don't think it's wrong for hobbyists to earn some money off their work.
Having a hobby doesn't mean you can't earn some money from it. I don't know why so many gamers seem to think that making money is evil, but I see this shit all the time. If you paid what you consider a fair amount, and when the project is completed get the value you paid for, then that's what matters. If it diminishes your enjoyment of a product if someone makes money off of it, then go off the grid, join a hippie commune, and make everything by hand and pat yourself on the back for avoiding ever allowing someone to make an evil, evil profit.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584897You do realize that under United States tax code money generated via Kickstarter must be declared. As an independent contractor you are exempt up to $700, and anything above that has to be declared.
Yeah. Doesn't mean I actually bothered to declare any of my ebay sales while I lived in the States. Or the money from garage sales. Or that I gave two craps about those FBI warnings when I let my friends borrowed my dvds. The American legal system is a mess with a bunch of shit piled on top. It's nothing to do with day to day reality.
Interesting aside, I haven't paid any taxes since I discovered that it was perfectly legal to calculate the money that would be owed and then send a cheque for that amount to the charity of my choice, and a letter to the IRS declaring this decision.
QuoteI'm just a troll, so what do I know.
well said.
QuoteYou can do what you want, but you cannot expect to not be considered performing the activities of a business when you bring in funds in such an amount that it bankrolls your project.
"A project" does not a business make.
Quote from: econobus;584879Because if it's about profit, I agree, it's awesome to rake in fat cash -- just don't tell me you're a hobbyist if you screw it up, because if you make the profit, you're a business. And if you're truly a hobbyist, tell me that too, and back it up by working out a system to redistribute any profit you accidentally make back to the backers.
Theoretically the premium rewards and bonus goals should be the way that redistribution happens. I suspect the Dwimmermount margins on the big packages aren't extremely high, myself. But the average fan can't tell. They see a book that cost an estimated $10k to produce taking in $48k before it hits the press, they're going to wonder where their book is.
This, right here, is a perfect way in summing it up. The problem I feel, with this whole debate is that there is two camps:
One, feels that Kickstarter, by its nature is a hobbyists endeavor which allows the little guy a chance to fund a dream.
The other agree with this, but feels as soon as you take money, you move from the realm of the hobbyist, to the realm of a business.
IRWS
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584899Making a profit doesn't automatically make it into a business. There are alot of other factors to make that determination. The distinction between hobby and business is a legal one, and is between them and The IRS.
Never said making a profit automatically made you a business. [EDIT: oops! i get where this would come in. Expanded/fixed version follows] But if our relationship devolves to the point where you are making a profit on me -- or just trying to -- then we have a business relationship and I'm going to relate to you in those terms. Which means no more crying about how you're just a hobbyist, our hobby is fraught with endless deadline failure and screwball comedy.
Did that part where I said it's awesome for hobbyists to rake in fat cash make it into the final post?
Quote from: TristramEvans;584900Yeah. Doesn't mean I actually bothered to declare any of my ebay sales while I lived in the States. Or the money from garage sales. Or that I gave two craps about those FBI warnings when I let my friends borrowed my dvds. The American legal system is a mess with a bunch of shit piled on top. It's nothing to do with day to day reality.
Interesting aside, I haven't paid any taxes since I discovered that it was perfectly legal to calculate the money that would be owed and then send a cheque for that amount to the charity of my choice, and a letter to the IRS declaring this decision.
Bully for you. However, $45,000 on a kickstarter, the tax man will be looking for their cut.
Re. my troll nature.
Quotewell said.
Such a witty retort. Your definition and mine are different as to what a troll is. I did not realize someone who debated from a other side of the issue was a troll. Show you what I know. Heck, and golly gee whiz, I even cut out the nasty words.
Quote"A project" does not a business make.
True. However, did you take money? Did you draw a profit? If not, where did the money go?
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584901This, right here, is a perfect way in summing it up. The problem I feel, with this whole debate is that there is two camps:
One, feels that Kickstarter, by its nature is a hobbyists endeavor which allows the little guy a chance to fund a dream.
The other agree with this, but feels as soon as you take money, you move from the realm of the hobbyist, to the realm of a business.
IRWS
I don't think kickstarter is limited to hobbyists, was never intended to be limited to hobbyists, and definitely serves more than hobbyists. In fact, simply browsing kickstarter projects shows this to be definitely not the case. For example, The DoubleFine adventure game, one of the highest earners and one of the first to break into the millions, was organized by DoubleFine productions, which is a professional game development studio. The money was to fund development and self publish the game.
Once again we have people who don't understand what kickstarter is deciding that others have to impose various restrictions upon using it that they personally decided upon.
Quote from: econobus;584902Never said making a profit automatically made you a business. But if our relationship devolves to the point where you are making a profit on me -- or just trying to -- then we have a business relationship and I'm going to relate to you in those terms. Which means no more crying about how you're just a hobbyist, our hobby is fraught with endless deadline failure and screwball comedy.
I see. So you're using an "all or nothing" logical fallacy to make your point. Got it. Good to know demagoguery is alive and well.
The middle just called; it said it was very unhappy at the way you've been excluding it.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584899
Having a hobby doesn't mean you can't earn some money from it. I don't know why so many gamers seem to think that making money is evil, but I see this shit all the time. If you paid what you consider a fair amount, and when the project is completed get the value you paid for, then that's what matters. If it diminishes your enjoyment of a product if someone makes money off of it, then go off the grid, join a hippie commune, and make everything by hand and pat yourself on the back for avoiding ever allowing someone to make an evil, evil profit.[/QUOTENever said making money was evil. Go for it. However, don't declare you are a hobbyist when you start taking in money, and acting in all ways like a business. You cannot declare you're hobbyist when you do this. Perhaps I am crazy that way, but that is how I see it. The math is very simple:
(x + y) + z = business
Whereas x is money, y is promise and z is product.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584906Never said making money was evil. Go for it. However, don't declare you are a hobbyist when you start taking in money, and acting in all ways like a business. You cannot declare you're hobbyist when you do this. Perhaps I am crazy that way, but that is how I see it. The math is very simple:
(x + y) + z = business
Whereas x is money, y is promise and z is product.
IRWS
One guy in his basement making a labor of love he hopes to maybe earn a few extra dollars on doesn't put him in the same category as Hasbro. The premise of that assertion is pure assholish bullshit.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584904I don't think kickstarter is limited to hobbyists, was never intended to be limited to hobbyists, and definitely serves more than hobbyists. In fact, simply browsing kickstarter projects shows this to be definitely not the case. For example, The DoubleFine adventure game, one of the highest earners and one of the first to break into the millions, was organized by DoubleFine productions, which is a professional game development studio. The money was to fund development and self publish the game.
Once again we have people who don't understand what kickstarter is deciding that others have to impose various restrictions upon using it that they personally decided upon.
I understand perfectly what Kickstarter is. Sadly most within this thread feel Kickstarter is for hobbyists. I have stated over and over agin, Kickstarter is for those who have a product ready or close to ready to go, and are looking for that final push of capital to take it there.
In my experience only game hobbyists think it is something else.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584910I understand perfectly what Kickstarter is. Sadly most within this thread feel Kickstarter is for hobbyists. I have stated over and over agin, Kickstarter is for those who have a product ready or close to ready to go, and are looking for that final push of capital to take it there.
Often, not even ready or close to ready. Again, the DoubleFine adventure game is an example. Development is still ongoing, and didn't begin at all until funding was reached. Alot of times the kickstarter is to fund the actual development and creation of the end product.
I saw one kickstarter for a photo journal project that the money was to fund not only publication of the journal, but to pay for the photographer to travel to the location and take the photos as well.
QuoteIn my experience only game hobbyists think it is something else.
Probably true.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584909One guy in his basement making a labor of love he hopes to maybe earn a few extra dollars on doesn't put him in the same category as Hasbro. The premise of that assertion is pure assholish bullshit.
I do not see it that way. Sorry. You take money, no matter how much you love what you do, you enter the realm of a business.
This is true for those who create custom toys, create handmade goods and sell at local build your own fairs. Yes, there is a love there, but you also hope to get money to pay for your outlay.
A business is a business. No matter if you sell Avon, Tupperware, babysit, start selling your own hand decorated cakes, or, create a OSR adventure.
The act of taking money, and selling a product, for me, makes you a business. Relation in size to Hasbro or Joe Bob's Dog Walking Service, SNow Shoveling, you are a business.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584901The other agree with this, but feels as soon as you take money, you move from the realm of the hobbyist, to the realm of a business.
I never thought James M was a humble hobbyist anyway. I figured he'd take the $10k he wanted, buy some art and finance a print run of maybe 500-1,000 copies, depending on how fancy we were talking. Hand out 250 of those copies to the backers he'd need to raise $10k and the hobbyist broke even. Hooray! And he wasn't even profiting on those 250 loyal fans!
Sell the rest for $39.95 MSRP and the business was in the black. Commercial vending relationship, move on, nothing to see here.
The wrinkle is that he effectively pre-sold that entire print run in advance so the "profit" -- however much it was -- moves up to before the fans get their labor of love copies. It's a nebulous area in the hobby/business split, which is why disclosure and redistribution are my uh hobbyhorses of the day.
Of course Reaper, SJG and so on aren't humble hobbyists by any stretch, but that's an old argument and Doctor Jest can make it better than I can!
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584911Often, not even ready or close to ready. Again, the DoubleFine adventure game is an example. Development is still ongoing, and didn't begin at all until funding was reached. Alot of times the kickstarter is to fund the actual development and creation of the end product.
I saw one kickstarter for a photo journal project that the money was to fund not only publication of the journal, but to pay for the photographer to travel to the location and take the photos as well.
If this is stated up front and clear, then, for me, I am cool. It is when you are told one thing, only to find out another, that I have an issue. The problem with a lot of Kickstarters is that often the ones who want the money either do not state clear enough what they will do, or they choose to not communicate.
Manage expectations, communicate, and be transparent. I do not think that is too much to ask.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584912I do not see it that way. Sorry. You take money, no matter how much you love what you do, you enter the realm of a business.
This is true for those who create custom toys, create handmade goods and sell at local build your own fairs. Yes, there is a love there, but you also hope to get money to pay for your outlay.
A business is a business. No matter if you sell Avon, Tupperware, babysit, start selling your own hand decorated cakes, or, create a OSR adventure.
The act of taking money, and selling a product, for me, makes you a business. Relation in size to Hasbro or Joe Bob's Dog Walking Service, SNow Shoveling, you are a business.
IRWS
And how i see it is that while we see delays in production of pre order products from big businesses all the time, and no one calls anyone a scam over it, we accept that those things happen, yet we're harder on the little guy, expecting him to exceed the expectations we have for a company like Hasbro or SJG, using the defense of "well your a business, so screw you" which makes those of us doing that sort of thing rather prickish assholes who are, indeed, quite full of our own assholish brand of smug, self-righteous bullshit.
In that regard, we need to totally get over ourselves and our collective sense of entitlement.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584905I see. So you're using an "all or nothing" logical fallacy to make your point. Got it. Good to know demagoguery is alive and well. The middle just called; it said it was very unhappy at the way you've been excluding it.
Sorry, I was on the phone with the dictionary and she told me to tell your middle that she's right, there is a third type of thing: a non-profit entity.
Businesses take money, conduct commerce and seek profits. If someone sells me something, we have a business relationship, even if next week we may have a Gamma World game.
Hobbyists are all people, some of whom may also seek profits. If I'm at that Gamma World game, I hope you're not trying to sell me something at the same time because it would make me sad. Not that you're using me but the fact that your profit margin on me must be really low.
Non-profit enterprises take money, conduct commerce, fund their operational needs and give the profits back.
Which one is Dwimmermount again?
Quote from: econobus;584913Of course Reaper, SJG and so on aren't humble hobbyists by any stretch, but that's an old argument and Doctor Jest can make it better than I can!
I do not have an issue with Reaper and SJG, because for me, they were looking for funding for a project that they wanted to undertake. Did they think they would do that good? I don't know, but if pressed to answer I bet they were.
In Reaper's case, they told you why they are doing what they are doing right up front. As the campaign has gone, they have stated the money raised will allow them to bring Bone's production in house.
Again, it all comes down to communication, and what you view Kickstarter for. I have never seen it as a hobbyist tool, but an initial investment tool for a project or product close to term. It is the usual suspects who look to suck any good idea for themselves and attempt to "consult" others that make it what it is not. That, and the usual "let's put on a play" club who want to stick it to the Man.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584914If this is stated up front and clear, then, for me, I am cool. It is when you are told one thing, only to find out another, that I have an issue. The problem with a lot of Kickstarters is that often the ones who want the money either do not state clear enough what they will do, or they choose to not communicate.
Manage expectations, communicate, and be transparent. I do not think that is too much to ask.
IRWS
Of course, Caveat Emptor, as well; before backing a project, it may be a good idea to ask questions if the description is vague (and in this case, the description is, indeed vague on this point). If you don't like the answer, don't back the project. You need to make sure you have all the facts before you sign any contract, which is what you're doing when you back a project. Ask questions.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584915And how i see it is that while we see delays in production of pre order products from big businesses all the time, and no one calls anyone a scam over it, we accept that those things happen, yet we're harder on the little guy, expecting him to exceed the expectations we have for a company like Hasbro or SJG, using the defense of "well your a business, so screw you" which makes those of us doing that sort of thing rather prickish assholes who are, indeed, quite full of our own assholish brand of smug, self-righteous bullshit.
In that regard, we need to totally get over ourselves and our collective sense of entitlement.
I do not expect anyone to exceed expectations, but I do expect communication transparency. It was only recently that we got any communication, and sadly it is not by the one who should be doing. When there is an appearance of impropriety going on you should work to stem it. If the project was clearer from the outset, then the issues would not have been raised.
IRWS
Quote from: econobus;584918Sorry, I was on the phone with the dictionary and she told me to tell your middle that she's right, there is a third type of thing: a non-profit entity.
Do you consider the time spend writing a book, drawing art, doing layout to be done for free? Do you consider fair compensation for that work to be a "profit"?
QuoteNon-profit enterprises take money, conduct commerce, fund their operational needs and give the profits back.
Including salaries for the people Conducting the commerce. In some cases, very attractive salaries. I used to work for a charity. I drew a paycheck for that work.
But again, this is a legal definition and is between them and the IRS.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584919I do not have an issue with Reaper and SJG, because for me, they were looking for funding for a project that they wanted to undertake. Did they think they would do that good? I don't know, but if pressed to answer I bet they were.
The "Kickstarter for underdogs with a dream club ONLY" lobby will disagree but I think it's great that corporate entities are using Kickstarter to gauge market interest and ... well, you can't call it "solicit pre-orders" now, but everyone knows what I mean.
If SJG screws up OGRE, they will not be able to play the "hobbyist" card. I know that much.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584920Of course, Caveat Emptor, as well; before backing a project, it may be a good idea to ask questions if the description is vague (and in this case, the description is, indeed vague on this point). If you don't like the answer, don't back the project. You need to make sure you have all the facts before you sign any contract, which is what you're doing when you back a project. Ask questions.
Strangely enough, divorce Dwimmermount from this because for me I backed it as a bet, I have cut down the number of projects I back to just three. All becasue they have been clear and upfront as to what is going on. Reaper was, and is, the last game project I back.
Of all the backed projects I have done, the comic books and design ones are best run. YMMV of course.
I ask questions all the time. If the answers I get are vague or not even answered, I do not back.
IRWS
Quote from: econobus;584926The "Kickstarter for underdogs with a dream club ONLY" lobby will disagree but I think it's great that corporate entities are using Kickstarter to gauge market interest and ... well, you can't call it "solicit pre-orders" now, but everyone knows what I mean.
If SJG screws up OGRE, they will not be able to play the "hobbyist" card. I know that much.
They're already adept at handling production delays and managing release dates and facing torch wielding mobs over them. The benefit of decades of experience.
Quote from: econobus;584926The "Kickstarter for underdogs with a dream club ONLY" lobby will disagree but I think it's great that corporate entities are using Kickstarter to gauge market interest and ... well, you can't call it "solicit pre-orders" now, but everyone knows what I mean.
If SJG screws up OGRE, they will not be able to play the "hobbyist" card. I know that much.
Agree 100%.
Reaper, I feel, is and was different, because they were looking for backing. Hell, I am getting a shit ton of minis, but in the end, the money I pledged went to them to expand their business. I am cool with that. They have done a great job with the after work as well.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;584927.
I ask questions all the time. If the answers I get are vague or not even answered, I do not back.
And that is a smart way to do this.
The thing about kickstarter is alot of folks launching products on it are novices. They're going to make mistakes. Asking questions is a good way both to assess how on the ball they are, but also can help the creator think of things they may not have considered.
The relationship between a kickstarter creator and a backer is not one of business and customer, it's one of artist and patron. People confusing it for pre-ordering is one of the biggest problems, one which kickstarter has tried to quash.
Quote from: The Butcher;584796Only that's not what the table in question does. Egads, am I the only one here who's actually read the book?
Quite possibly. :)
But you're right: I was being blatantly unfair. The rpgsite is on the former Nothingland servers----we're officially allowed to use hyperbole and exaggeration humour here, and I tend to lay it on with a trowel sometimes.
Imagine I'm saying all this while kicked back on a leather sofa with a pint of room temperature Theakstone's Old Peculier in one hand and a freshly-lit Bolivar Royal Corona in the other. I've got both my feet up and a Squirrel Nutkin T-shirt on.
I'm mentioning this because some genius has helpfully blogged my post and repeated a large chunk of it out of context. Thanks, Tenkar's Tavern!
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584924Do you consider the time spend writing a book, drawing art, doing layout to be done for free? Do you consider fair compensation for that work to be a "profit"?
You know you're talking to this guy, right?
Quote from: econobus;584879it's awesome to rake in fat cash
Of course it's not free. Of course people earn a living and more often "beer money" at this. I've done it myself full-time. It's demanding work for very little money.
It's demanding because it is your business. It is your job, for those few hours a week you have your "pro gamer" hat on, and I have no obligation to you to treat you any differently when you have that hat on than I do the person who trims our lawn. When I did it, I was in "business" for myself. I had responsibilities to my clients and when I screwed up, it hurt me as a "businessman."
Then we'd all go play Gamma World.
Any Kickstarter underdog can pay himself whatever he wants: a word rate, hourly, the whole pie. Sure. I knew he was doing that and wish him well.
On the non-profits...
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584924Including salaries for the people Conducting the commerce. In some cases, very attractive salaries,
This is where I said something about "their operational needs," right? Of course non-profits pay their people. If those people are independent contractors, they're in "business" for themselves. If they screw up, the non-profit can say, "well, I wasn't paying you much anyway, you're more of a hobbyist, a pro would demand more and give me better results."
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584924But again, this is a legal definition and is between them and the IRS.
Which would *you* say Dwimmermount is? A hobby venture, a business or a non-profit venture oriented around recouping its costs and giving back to the fans?
Quote from: I run with scissors;584903Bully for you. However, $45,000 on a kickstarter, the tax man will be looking for their cut.
But he still won't be declaring a kickstarter project a business.
QuoteSuch a witty retort. Your definition and mine are different as to what a troll is. I did not realize someone who debated from a other side of the issue was a troll. Show you what I know. Heck, and golly gee whiz, I even cut out the nasty words.
That's a lot of fuss when all I did was agree with you.
QuoteTrue. However, did you take money? Did you draw a profit? If not, where did the money go?
IRWS
Coke and strippers, usually.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584931The relationship between a kickstarter creator and a backer is not one of business and customer, it's one of artist and patron. People confusing it for pre-ordering is one of the biggest problems, one which kickstarter has tried to quash.
Yes! All right! Yay! That's a non-profit relationship, making the world brighter by adding one new game product or whatever. I can work with that. So if the artists are transparent about where their funding goes, I can pick projects better.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;584928They're already adept at handling production delays and managing release dates and facing torch wielding mobs over them. The benefit of decades of experience.
SJG has Big Steve standing over them, I would hate to be the one to soil his Kickstarter.
Probably part of why so many gamers trusted them with a whole lot of money, whereas someone like a Monte is still hit or miss.
Quote from: TristramEvans;584934That's a lot of fuss when all I did was agree with you.
Sorry about I just got a little sensitive there. Sorry to have been an ass with that bit.
IRWS
Quote from: _kent_;584637Could you for example turn your website into a 50 page pdf and sell it?
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;584697Easily, I'd say. Most of that is commentary. With some editing, I could probably publish most it without the OGL, even referencing "D&D" as long as I acknowledged it as a trademark owned by WotC.
If I went the OGL route I'd probably be on safer legal ground with some of the more rules-oriented material, but I'd have to remove all references to WotC-owned trademarks, which would be kind of annoying.
(My site is currently down, though. I was planning on moving to a different hosting provider and re-working the layout and stuff, but haven't gotten around to it. There's nothing new on it, anyway. It's been static for a long time.)
Initially when I got my kindle I experimented with making some gaming pdfs in LaTeX. I prefer pdfs to the flowing text. Your website happened to be something I was reading at the time.
(http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac15/TravisDF/DSCF1379_zps58501679.jpg)
Quote from: _kent_;584954Initially when I got my kindle I experimented with making some gaming pdfs in LaTeX. I prefer pdfs to the flowing text. Your website happened to be something I was reading at the time.
Very nice!
I like LaTeX. Lately, I've also been experimenting with XML (or XHTML) and princexml (http://www.princexml.com/), which facilitates the creation of PDFs from XML using CSS. XML may not be the most concise markup, but it's ubiquitous; something like princexml can be quite handy.
What an absolutely 'legendary' thread. It reminds me of the thread on the old Necromancer site that was all about the T&T bootlegging bastard or some such (although what I remember about that thread isn't heavy on the details, just the tone, the accusation, swift attacks on the accuser and then an avalanche of artists finding their art being used without permission), or did I dream it.
This thread has more of a split personality with some posts following the attacks on the late product, while other posters are attacking and defending a game system (have to say that all this talk makes me want to pick up a copy of acks now) and other topics rising up like the heads of a hydra such as personal attacks and the OSR then OSRIC topics.
All in all, very entertaining.
What can I add?
I can't imagine why anyone thinks dwimmermount will not come out. JamesM seems to have a decent reputation with a good deal of time and at least some effort invested in it. I completely understand why someone who is trying to come up with a creative dungeon adventure would also post blogs. Different writing styles, as has been mentioned. For me, when I need to clear my head, I find that indexing material is the best thing. It allows some part of me to think creatively while I'm working on an index, which is a very uncreative process. I can see some light blog posts as a good way to clear someones head, perhaps even work as distraction from real life troubles.
I also know that when I run an adventure no matter how many notes I have or how prepared I am, the players will do something I never considered and I will, largely, have to wing a good deal of the game. Normally I end up creating only the framework of an adventure and just make some particular notes to help me along, but many of the details that bring the campaign to life happen as the game rolls along. Trying to turn this framework with notes into an adventure I could hand to another DM (or try to sell as a completed adventure) is a daunting task. A delay in writing a megadungeon for publication, even one that has been a setting used by the DM, is unsurprising to me.
That being said, there is a big difference between writing and creating for the pleasure of doing so and writing and creating as a business. If deadlines aren't met people should complain, but beyond a certain point is all that complaining going to get you your lollypop, or pony, or toy car, or trip to disneyland, or get that megadungeon into your hands any sooner or at all?
There seem to be some axes to grind here about JamesM, and some ack's to grind as well. I've heard such good things about the ack's system and now such terrible ones I need to read this game for myself.
Anyway, short time lurker and first time poster. A most Legendary and enjoyable thread this has been.
Since James is Canadian, I doubt that the IRS is going to be involved with him at all. Tavis seems a businessman who is also a gamer, rather than the other way around, so I think things have probably been competently structured so that the IRS will have very little revenue stake in the whole thing.
If they (or any kickstarter) could pull 95% in profit out of the entire thing while meeting all of their obligations, bully for them. I certainly don't think any revenue transparency is required of any kickstarter, even when late. Solid, direct communication if things go off the rails, sure. Refunds are gentlemanly if what happens to the whole thing begins to resemble a cardinal change. But how revenue is handled is a business prerogative.
Quote from: The Butcher;584866You're shifting the goalposts here, and I'm sorely tempted to conclude that you're not arguing in good faith.
They're not my goal posts to move. I'm simply citing what I understood P&P to be referencing and why.
That said, until today that was literally the
only section - the one on "Hideouts and Hijinks" - I read in
ACKS - and no matter what I may say about the game, Autarch and Tavis Allison got my money, so they can laugh all the way to the bank, waving their collective middle fingers in my face the whole way. With all the discussion this thread generated, I decided to take a closer look, and I what I see is an attempt to make the OSR's
Pathfinder, right down to the Proficiencies with 3e names and the execrable 4e portmanteau names for character classes.
And that's all I care to say about that, 'cause that's all I really
can say about that.
TB, I consider you an online bro, so I gotta ask, what gives? I fling my poo at Messrs Maliszewski and Allison - the latter for talking out of both sides of his [strike]ass[/strike] mouth, the former 'cause
I was in the Blue Bottle Saloon in Wichita, and I think he's an insufferable poseur - and you act like somebody kicked you in the nuts and stole your teddy bear.
Quote from: JasonZavoda;584964Anyway, short time lurker and first time poster.
Welcome to the adult swim.
Welcome, Jason, and yes indeed, I can't see why you wouldn't benefit in some way in checking out ACKS for yourself. There's bound to be something in there worth pillaging for a D&D campaign, if it comes to that.
I hope I'm not the second person to post this in this thread, but I happened to stumble across this quote from James Maliszewski:
"I'm not a big fan of pre-orders and, having been burned by them more than a couple of times in the past, I generally consider them a good sign that the company involved doesn't have a good business plan and isn't likely to be able to follow-through."
From here:
http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2010/05/and-on-down-note.html
Quote from: econobus;584887That's that "sly wink" emoticon I was looking for. I see a bold new world ahead, gentlemen and ladies. Kickstarter Consultants. [EDIT TO ADD: Kickstarter Pay-for-Click Content Farming. Kickstarter Outsourced Fulfillment Services.] Kickstarter Insurance. Kickstarter Ratings Agencies. Kickstarter Incubators. Kickstarterstarters.
Those who survive will be RICH!
Kickstarter Consultants? I'm surprised that Transmedia Inventor and RPG Management Consultant Skarka hasn't latched onto that idea yet.
Quote from: TristramEvans;584900Yeah. Doesn't mean I actually bothered to declare any of my ebay sales while I lived in the States. Or the money from garage sales. Or that I gave two craps about those FBI warnings when I let my friends borrowed my dvds. The American legal system is a mess with a bunch of shit piled on top. It's nothing to do with day to day reality.
Nitpick: If you're going to bitch about the American legal system, and cite specific examples, realize that there's nothing in the FBI warnings about loaning your friends your DVDs, and there's nothing in our copyright law that prohibits you from doing so. Right of first sale (a doctrine that's not exclusive to the United States) explicitly allows you to loan, for personal use, your copyrighted material such as books, DVDs, etc.
Sorry, but this kind of shit drives me insane. Back to your regularly scheduled conversation.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;584891This is mostly tangential to what you're saying here, but I think one interesting aspect of Kickstarter's methodology is that it tends to create the impression that the people behind them are getting a lot more money than they really are. (Because there are, of course, costs associated with delivering the rewards.)
For example, my project on 8-Bit Funding pulled in $3,800. How much of that is going into my pocket when all is said and done? -$5,000. (Art and printing are expensive, yo.)
I'm sure JM is keeping a healthier personal profit line from his $48,000 kickstarter than I am from mine. But, ultimately, printing hundreds of books and paying for art and cartography are expensive.
I think a lot of people see "$48,000 kickstarter" and think "wow, he just earned my yearly salary for doing this book". But, in reality, that's not what happened. Once the expenses are paid, JM will take home only a small fraction of the total amount displayed on the Kickstarter homepage for his project.
I take your point, but I doubt it's a 'small fraction'. I think it's probably a fairly large fraction - much more than half.
In any case it's not the amount of money, more the principle that payment on delivery is a much safer bet than payment in advance as far as deadlines are concerned.
I think there's sometimes a lot of unwarranted mysticism about creative pursuits. Creative people are generally mercurial and somewhat lacking in drive, that's true, but financial/time pressure has an amazing way of concentrating the mind on getting something done, and done well.
Quote from: Black VulmeaTB, I consider you an online bro, so I gotta ask, what gives? I fling my poo at Messrs Maliszewski and Allison - the latter for talking out of both sides of his [strike]ass[/strike] mouth, the former 'cause I was in the Blue Bottle Saloon in Wichita, and I think he's an insufferable poseur - and you act like somebody kicked you in the nuts and stole your teddy bear.
I am merely defending one of my favorite games from an inaccurate characterization borne of a misunderstanding of the rules. A situatioEn no doubt all too familiar for any TSR-era D&D fan who's ever posted on RPGnet or ENWorld.
Stuart and you claimed that the game substitutes adventuring in favor of domain management, and cited the table in p. 140 as an example. I pointed out that that's not what the table does. That's all there is to it, really. I'm 100% OK with the fact that it's not everyone's cup of tea; I just oppose mischaracterization borne of factual inaccuracy as a principle.
Regarding the portmanteau class names and the proficiencies, at first I was a bit leery of them myself. I think the class names could be simpler (eg. Defender instead of Vaultguard, even if Vault-Lord is an awesome title), but Proficiencies add a bit of customization without falling into the 3e+ trap of feat trees and character builds. But in any case they can be ignored without breaking anything.
I like you too man, I just think you're being crabby for the sake of being crabby (as Stuart himself admitted to doing upthread). Which is absolutely in character for theRPGsite, I guess; but I reserve myself the right to disagree. No hard feelings.
Quote from: kythri;584987Kickstarter Consultants? I'm surprised that Transmedia Inventor and RPG Management Consultant Skarka hasn't latched onto that idea yet.
Is that what he is these days? Ugh. Guess I'm not spending nearly enough time on the google plus.
But yeah, endless opportunities to cash in here, and finally enough actual money on the table to make it worth the snake oil crowd's attention.
Quote from: TristramEvans;584900Interesting aside, I haven't paid any taxes since I discovered that it was perfectly legal to calculate the money that would be owed and then send a cheque for that amount to the charity of my choice, and a letter to the IRS declaring this decision.
That's not actually the way it works. You don't get a tax credit for charitable donations, instead you don't get taxed on income you donate to charity.
So in a simple world, you make $10,000 a year and have a 10% flat tax. You owe $1,000. If you write a $1,000 check to The Human Fund and deduct it, it doesn't mean you have a $0 tax bill - it means you're only taxed on $9,000 of income, and actually still owe $900.
I'd talk to a lawyer if I were you, you may be a very generous tax cheat.
Quote from: TristramEvans;584900"A project" does not a business make.
Totally irrelevant. You owe tax on any income you make. I don't know anything about Canadian taxes, but in the US you'll need to pay tax on the money you take in minus the expenses required to produce the product you're selling. If you've set up a corporation or LLC, there's a whole separate bunch of rules - if not, it's personal income on top of what you already make.
Quote from: TristramEvans;584900Doesn't mean I actually bothered to declare any of my ebay sales while I lived in the States. Or the money from garage sales.
If you made money on your eBay sales and garage sales you'd have to declare the income, but how often is that the case? You're probably selling at a net loss, unless there's some depreciation factor in the tax code. But that's not really germane to selling a new book you just published.
Quote from: kythri;584987Kickstarter Consultants? I'm surprised that Transmedia Inventor and RPG Management Consultant Skarka hasn't latched onto that idea yet.
Yes, yes he has. The parasite on all hobbyists is about to begin sucking the air out of it.
What's the saying? Those who can design, and those who can't consult.
IRWS
Quote from: P&P;584932But you're right: I was being blatantly unfair. The rpgsite is on the former Nothingland servers----we're officially allowed to use hyperbole and exaggeration humour here, and I tend to lay it on with a trowel sometimes.
Yours has the distinction of being both the most critical and the funniest review on the ACKS review page (http://www.autarch.co/blog/adventurer-conqueror-king-reviews#overlay-context=blog/adventurer-conqueror-king-reviews).
We sent copies of ACKS to everyone whose work had inspired and laid the groundwork for ours - that's where your unsolicited copy came from - and it's pleasing to know that in at least one case this led to the enjoyment of a pint and a cigar, metaphorically or otherwise.
(We also had issues with the Bits & Mortar server we used to send these copies - the list of inspirations was so long that it thought we were spamming - so if you or someone you know was slighted, it's either because the email got blocked by the server or because I didn't sufficiently do my homework about key contributors before I came on the scene. Either way, please let me know so I can make amends.)
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;584686This is astoundingly commonplace. Want to know why so many RPG books have subpar art? It's because those artists are good enough, and can deliver the commissioned pieces by the promised deadline.
You also get what you pay for. Many vendors expect original art to be done way below minimum wage. Artists have to fill their time with paying projects, and if you have to choose between one that pays $15 an hour vs $3 an hour, which one do you take?
It is a tough one - estimated numbers for a product can be quite low, so do you want to spend half of your best guess estimated profit on the art? While you might write your game in your free time, the artist creates the art for your game as their main source of revenue (unless they really do something else and only do art as a hobby too).
Ive been asked for quotes on a few projects (our digital production house offers those kinds of services), and its almost always eyes-bigger-than-stomachs.
To respond to the ACKS hate:
QuoteThe basic problem with Manager Merchant Landlord is that the authors do not have clue #1 about how real Feudal Kingdoms worked which introduces massive anomalies and problems.
I'm not sure that it's a good idea to draw conclusions about someone's real world knowledge based on a brief skim of a game design. In any event, I think you've actually got things turned around. The real problem is that if you unthinkingly simulate real feudal kingdoms in a D&D-like world, it introduces massive anomalies and problems, because a D&D-like world is and must be different from a medieval world. For one thing, every D&D-like world uses a coin-based economy, while the medieval world was largely barter-based. I could go on and on.
Actually, I HAVE gone on and on. You can read about the basic assumptions of the system here:
http://www.autarch.co/blog/starting-ground-upliterally
http://www.autarch.co/blog/starting-ground-part-ii
http://www.autarch.co/blog/demographics-heroism
http://www.autarch.co/blog/secret-ratio
QuoteThey may know a bit about Ancient Rome (hence having rules for slaves but not for serfs, for example), but they don't understand the basic mediaeval paradigm. You don't "attract" peasants into your fucking service!
Given that the institutions of serfdom and manorialism arose from the latifundia and coloni of Ancient Rome, I reckon I'd know quite a bit just from knowing about Ancient Rome. In any event, in ACKS, peasants are associated with domains. So if you inherit an existing domain, you inherit your peasants. If you are given an existing domain by a lord, you inherit the peasants. If you conquer a domain, you get the peasants that exist there already. Only if you establish a new domain do you "attract" peasants, and the number of peasants you attract is assumed to be the families of workers you hired to help you establish the domain, and/or people purposefully seeking your protection. I'm not sure why these assumptions are so off-base as to merit cursing about it.
QuoteTheir population figures are totally borked (tens of millions of families? Really??) but they clearly indicate that peasants are not a scarce resource.
Why do you think our population figures are totally borked? All of our population figures were measured against historical data points. In the process of creating ACKS, I built modeled everything from the historical Roman Empire to Medieval England. In the 12th century, the kingdom of England had a population of 2.3 million spread across 10,000 manors. 2.3 million people = 460,000 families. That's squarely within the "King" tier of ACKS. The "Starting From the Ground Up" blog post above actually shares the modeling I did for England to the point where even the incomes matched up. (Note that in the earliest edition of the game, we actually measured domains all the way down to tiny manors of knights, but at the feedback of players, we made the minimum domain size the barony.)
QuoteEven if you did need to "attract" peasants, you wouldn't do it by making "agricultural investments" of tens of thousands of gp or holding "festivals". You'd build houses with safe water supplies in communities that include schools and hospitals.
Right. And what do you think "investments" represent? They are called "agricultural investments" to differentiate them from the "urban investments" of cities. Also, hospitals and public schools as they are commonly understood didn't exist in the Middle Ages; they were largely adjuncts to churches. The ancient world had far closer analogues with its valetudinaria and gymnasia.
QuoteOverall, this is a game of mediaeval economic management written by people who don't understand mediaeval economics, superimposed on an admittedly tightly-written retro-clone. If you can secure a free copy, pages 117 and 118 may inspire a mildly useful house rule or two. I have no clue why anyone would drop the RRP of $40 on it.
While we can disagree about my knowledge of the middle ages, I do appreciate your kind words on my writing style. Would you mind if we quoted you as saying that ACKS is a "tightly written retro-clone"? :D
Quote from: econobus;585005Is that what he is these days? Ugh. Guess I'm not spending nearly enough time on the google plus.
Well, he never shuts up about transmedia this and transmedia that. One of the big reasons I consider the concept of transmedia an utter joke.
But as far as the consultancy stuff, he tried that bit over on RPG.net, hiring himself out via their forum (can't find the post, but it was in the Game Industry Shop Talk or somewhere similar).
Edit: Here's the post! (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?460427-Consulting-for-Publishers)
Quote from: I run with scissors;585017Yes, yes he has. The parasite on all hobbyists is about to begin sucking the air out of it.
What's the saying? Those who can design, and those who can't consult.
IRWS
Oh really? When did he start advertising those services?
Quote from: kythri;585048Well, he never shuts up about transmedia this and transmedia that. One of the big reasons I consider the concept of transmedia an utter joke.
Eww. My interactions with him are ancient history (pre-911) now but it always struck me that any grifter actually worth his magic beans could make a nice life selling to rich ladies and dot-com start-ups and such, and not wasting his time with nickel-and-dime gamers. What's a name-level thief
doing in this burg?
Quote from: kythri;585049Oh really? When did he start advertising those services?
QuoteAs a start, check out this entry I wrote back in December. I provided an overview of Kickstarter, links to advice that I received, and offered some advice of my own. And you don't have to pay me a consulting fee to get it.
Source: http://gmskarka.com/2012/07/03/insurgent-creative-watch-for-vultures/
Though he says do not pay for Kickstarting Consulting (http://gmskarka.com/2012/08/27/insurgent-creative-never-pay-for-kickstarter-consulting/) you can hire him as a consultant, and I would assume if you ask him for advice on it, he would give it to you for a fee.
I know, splitting hairs, but there you go.
IRWS
Quote from: Guy Fullerton;584981I hope I'm not the second person to post this in this thread, but I happened to stumble across this quote from James Maliszewski:
"I'm not a big fan of pre-orders and, having been burned by them more than a couple of times in the past, I generally consider them a good sign that the company involved doesn't have a good business plan and isn't likely to be able to follow-through."
From here:
http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2010/05/and-on-down-note.html
Wow, that's rich.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;585062Wow, that's rich.
RPGPundit
Even richer is John Adams* posts the following as well:
QuoteI agree that pre-orders are a problem for the OSR and that I have helped make it worse. What can I say? Honestly, I thought I would only sell 50 of them!
But the bottom line is that some products just cannot be produced by hobby publishers without pre-orders. In today's market, it seems highly unlikely that one could sell enough $10 modules to create enough capital to do a print run of a hard cover or even a large perfect bound product.
Without pre-orders for at least the big products, they won't happen - not unless one of the major corporate game companies does it, a hobby publisher decides to go into debt to do it or they get a government grant.
Source: http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2010/05/and-on-down-note.html?showComment=1274125440846#c6232245251632611248
* He of the epic preorder fail that is his Delving Deeper box set, which finally, maybe, hopefully, is going to start sending out the preorders of the box sets. Mind you it is a year late. In addition, there is the Kickstarter for his Appendix N, which still has not shipped anything.
I think, once again, the hobbyists bite off more than they can chew.
QuoteBut the bottom line is that some products just cannot be produced by hobby publishers without pre-orders.
Who is forcing you to publish your shit? Christ, the world of hobby games needs boxsets and cut and paste clones like they need a hole in the head. Just because you can do it, does not mean, you have to do it. If you cannot afford to do the project, why do it? Just so you can say: I did?
What happened with putting out a PDF? Drivethru now allows you to do POD, in addition to the PDF. There is no reason to publish, expend real capital, if you do not have it.
IRWS
Exactly that kind of philistine lying is so ingrained into him, I cannot feel any sympathy. No matter how real his problems now might be.
Also, someone else upthread said st about where the money actually goes...into product and not only into writing, true fact.
But apparently he needs to be subsidized WHILE writing, even before the printer bills are but a twinkle in an angle's eye!
So anybody thinking and saying: "The money is for art and tangible product, he is not ripping off, just late" must see that with every day that passes, the amount of money spent on feeding JMs family is directly eating away at your tangible product!
Quote from: RPGPundit;585062Wow, that's rich.
RPGPundit
Yeah... not a stellar comment in hindsight.
Quote from: Settembrini;585065Exactly that kind of philistine lying is so ingrained into him, I cannot feel any sympathy. No matter how real his problems now might be.
Also, someone else upthread said st about where the money actually goes...into product and not only into writing, true fact.
But apparently he needs to be subsidized WHILE writing, even before the printer bills are but a twinkle in an angle's eye!
So anybody thinking and saying: "The money is for art and tangible product, he is not ripping off, just late" must see that with every day that passes, the amount of money spent on feeding JMs family is directly eating away at your tangible product!
Careful with this, the Gamer Stockholm Syndrome Brigade is going to label you a troll, and someone who is placing expectations on a hobbyist.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;585053you can hire him as a consultant, and I would assume if you ask him for advice on it, he would give it to you for a fee.
I know, splitting hairs, but there you go.
There's nothing wrong with hiring consultants. The question is, do you feel their services have enough significant value. Plenty of businesses don't have problems with consultants who give advice but do not take any real risks.
I find that an interesting article, since he says you shouldn't be taken in by vultures who don't have any substantial cred in the crowdfunding game (vs those who have accumulated just a little, considering that crowdsourcing through these venues is so new).
A good marketing person can extract the techniques used in crowdfunding by looking at the most successful ones, so I can see why they need to denigrate anyone with broader marketing experience.
Question: I don't remember who said that 50+ comments were deleted from Grognardia. How and where did that happen, exactly?
Quote from: amacris;585043Why do you think our population figures are totally borked? All of our population figures were measured against historical data points. In the process of creating ACKS, I built modeled everything from the historical Roman Empire to Medieval England. In the 12th century, the kingdom of England had a population of 2.3 million spread across 10,000 manors. 2.3 million people = 460,000 families.
Where is that written? I am not challenging your assertion. I want to read the material for myself. I haven't run across the 10,000 manor figure before and like to read up on it for my own purposes.
For example I found that the excellent Medieval Demographics (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm) isn't quite the whole picture even by its own premises. That because they based their figures on a table in Life in a Medieval city by Giles, which in turn is based on a 13th century Paris Tax Roll but.... Giles truncated the list for the book. So luckily the Paris Tax Roll is on the internet and I used it to make my own demographic calculator (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Fantasy%20Demographics%20Version%201.pdf). The same with some of the stuff in Harn.
So while I find ACKS, Harn, and Medieval Demographics useful, I like to tweak it for my own use by looking at the underlying assumptions and data.
Quote from: amacris;585043To respond to the ACKS hate:
There's been no actual hate in this thread, yanno. ACK got to be the butt of some traditional RPGsite-style exaggerated ranting from yours truly. Think of it like this: a negative review is a consequence of success. :)
I'm afraid that I haven't read the rest of your post in very much detail. I skimmed down as far as the bit where you tried to tell me the population of England in the 12th century to within a few hundred thousand, and then had to stop owing to the fact that I'd fallen off my chair and was rolling around the floor helpless with laughter. The bit where peasants live in families of five is just icing on the cake. :)
Quote from: amacris;585043While we can disagree about my knowledge of the middle ages,
Yup. I say you don't know what you're talking about and you haven't asked someone who does.
Quote from: amacris;585043I do appreciate your kind words on my writing style. Would you mind if we quoted you as saying that ACKS is a "tightly written retro-clone"? :D
Be my guest. :)
Quote from: estar;585073Where is that written? I am not challenging your assertion. I want to read the material for myself. I haven't run across the 10,000 manor figure before and like to read up on it for my own purposes.
I'm challenging the whole damn thing.
There are two reasonably complete surveys of English manors dating to before the 20th century, and they're the Domesday Book of 1086 and the Return of Owners of Land of 1871. There's no 12th century source.
The Domesday Book contains the records of 13,400 settlements in the UK, in an area that doesn't exactly conform to modern England. It omits a few places (e.g. the minor detail that there's no Domesday survey of the city of London).
Quote from: Lynn;585069I find that an interesting article, since he says you shouldn't be taken in by vultures who don't have any substantial cred in the crowdfunding game (vs those who have accumulated just a little, considering that crowdsourcing through these venues is so new).
I find it amusing that he warns against being taken in by vultures, but went apeshit when someone made a similar warning in his advert for his questionable consulting services.
Quote from: Benoist;585070Question: I don't remember who said that 50+ comments were deleted from Grognardia. How and where did that happen, exactly?
Not by me. My comments are deleted, and I have been blocked.
IRWS
Quote from: P&P;585075I'm afraid that I haven't read the rest of your post in very much detail. I skimmed down as far as the bit where you tried to tell me the population of England in the 12th century to within a few hundred thousand, and then had to stop owing to the fact that I'd fallen off my chair and was rolling around the floor helpless with laughter. The bit where peasants live in families of five is just icing on the cake. :)
Right. Because the necessity to rely on estimates is HILARIOUS.
Yes, historical estimates of population are just that, estimates. Or conjectures. Because historians can hardly agree on anything. They can't agree on the size of the armies that fought in any of Alexander's battles. They can't agree on whether Jesus existed. They can't agree why there's so little archaeological evidence for Charlemagne. But when you're designing a game, you don't get to have the luxury of claiming ignorance. You have to pick your poison.
Seriously, though: If you want to critique the game, I'd be happy to hear your reasoning for why you ACTUALLY think it's broken. You can look at our forums and blog and see I'm happy to drill down to really fine detail. But just engaging in drive by sarcasm is pretty lame.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;583556That comment wasn't about IRWS directly, but at YDIS and the commentary there, with stuff like:
* edgy user is edgy for including the word "fag" in his username
* "This crippled snowflake Ed Dove is R4′s number one cocksucker, accusing everyone who doesn't sing the magnificent praises of lying and logical errors. The kid's obviously a petty faggot,..."
* "Yeah, Ed Dove's lips are wrapped around Raggi's limp and pimply cock pretty tight, and that bitch is definitely gonna swallow. "
* About a dozen references to masturbation.
It was like I was shown into a room full of very angry 12 year olds.
forum.rpg.net is waiting, since rough language apparently gets your panties in a knot.
Quote from: P&P;585077I'm challenging the whole damn thing.
There are two reasonably complete surveys of English manors dating to before the 20th century, and they're the Domesday Book of 1086 and the Return of Owners of Land of 1871. There's no 12th century source.
The Domesday Book contains the records of 13,400 settlements in the UK, in an area that doesn't exactly conform to modern England. It omits a few places (e.g. the minor detail that there's no Domesday survey of the city of London).
If that's your attitude, then I fear you are out of step with the practice of history today. Working historians no longer rely solely on textual evidence when making their estimates. Archaeology has had a substantial influence on our view of ancient and medieval history, vastly supplementing and in many cases revising the view of the historical world that we inherited from textual sources.
Quote from: Settembrini;585065Also, someone else upthread said st about where the money actually goes...into product and not only into writing, true fact.
But apparently he needs to be subsidized WHILE writing, even before the printer bills are but a twinkle in an angle's eye!
So anybody thinking and saying: "The money is for art and tangible product, he is not ripping off, just late" must see that with every day that passes, the amount of money spent on feeding JMs family is directly eating away at your tangible product!
This was my main concern as a backer expecting a hardback published product. The delay in actual time is of no real concern (to me). If it takes an extra 6 months or a year to see a decent final product then so be it.
Hearing that the contributed funds are being used for living expenses, combined with the vastly extended timeline is something of a concern. Living expenses aren't exactly a fixed cost, and more time costs a lot more money.
The question of where will the printing funds come from if all the cash gets (literally) eaten up during production time has to be asked. Waiting for a decent product is reasonable. Waiting, then finding out that pdf is all that can be managed is not.
Quote from: amacris;585086Yes, historical estimates of population are just that, estimates. Or conjectures. Because historians can hardly agree on anything. They can't agree on the size of the armies that fought in any of Alexander's battles. They can't agree on whether Jesus existed. They can't agree why there's so little archaeological evidence for Charlemagne.
We could agree if we wanted too, but there is no fucking money in doing that.
Quote from: jadrax;585091We could agree if we wanted too, but there is no fucking money in doing that.
You know, now that you say that, this might be true of D&D retro-clone game designers. Much is explained.
Quote from: The Butcher;584999I am merely defending one of my favorite games from an inaccurate characterization borne of a misunderstanding of the rules. A situatioEn no doubt all too familiar for any TSR-era D&D fan who's ever posted on RPGnet or ENWorld.
TB, the fact that you feel you need to 'defend one of your favorite games' should perhaps be setting off warning bells somewhere in your mind.
I often find myself correcting mistakes, but I try to avoid considering myself the 'defender' of anything, 'cause, y'know, these are
games were talking about.
Quote from: The Butcher;584999Stuart and you claimed . . .
Stop there. I didn't 'claim' anything - I pointed out what I thought P&P referenced in his post. I can see why you would take exception as lacking the nuance of the complete rule; can you also see why the advice to roll a single reaction check for up to a hundred followers at a time might be just a bit problematic? Maybe by contrasting how loyalty's handed in the 1e
AD&D DMG, frex?
Quote from: The Butcher;584999I like you too man, I just think you're being crabby for the sake of being crabby (as Stuart himself admitted to doing upthread).
I'm not being "crabby for the sake of being crabby." Aside from our mutual distaste for Dragonlance, I think James Maliszewski is overrated as a commentator on roleplaying games, and I think Tavis Allison is way too in love with his own marketing spin, trying to position Autarch as 'the Paizo of the OSR.'
Quote from: The Butcher;584999No hard feelings.
None whatsoever. :)
After striking out with an entertaining review, disappointingly, P&P soon reverts to type. See him now galavanting in faux medieval couture along English country meadows quoting the Domesday book with all the solemnity that his bright pantaloons and bonnet will permit.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;585090Hearing that the contributed funds are being used for living expenses, combined with the vastly extended timeline is something of a concern. Living expenses aren't exactly a fixed cost, and more time costs a lot more money.
The question of where will the printing funds come from if all the cash gets (literally) eaten up during production time has to be asked. Waiting for a decent product is reasonable. Waiting, then finding out that pdf is all that can be managed is not.
Funding living expenses would be totally wack; I'll have to go back and read the backer updates to see what I might have said to give that impression and write a thousand times never to do it again.
We've seen some discussion upthread about whether Kickstarter robs creatives of the motivation to do things by putting dessert before dinner, but budgeting for more dessert the longer it takes to eat dinner would incentivize delaying. That's not at all the case with Dwimmermount.
Quote from: amacris;585088If that's your attitude, then I fear you are out of step with the practice of history today. Working historians no longer rely solely on textual evidence when making their estimates. Archaeology has had a substantial influence on our view of ancient and medieval history, vastly supplementing and in many cases revising the view of the historical world that we inherited from textual sources.
Back to my question, could you point me to the source where you got the 10,000 manor figure. Thanks.
Quote from: P&P;585077There are two reasonably complete surveys of English manors dating to before the 20th century, and they're the Domesday Book of 1086 and the Return of Owners of Land of 1871. There's no 12th century source.
The Domesday Book contains the records of 13,400 settlements in the UK, in an area that doesn't exactly conform to modern England. It omits a few places (e.g. the minor detail that there's no Domesday survey of the city of London).
My viewpoint is that I like to look at the original data if possible because I learned in recent years that it there are a variety of ways of interpreting the fragmentary primary data. So rather shoehorn the Majestic Wilderlands into the assumptions of N Robin Crossby, or S John Ross I just rather look at it myself. Hence my Fantasy Demographics where I use the Paris Tax Roll data to reflect what I do with the Majestic Wilderlands.
Although I am wondering whether the overabundance of people working with leather goods is correct for the general case. Most of the sources I read that people working with cloth are the dominant trade because it is so labor intensive.
Seriously, why does anybody care?
I'm not normally one of those people who says "this is a game with dragons in, so who cares about how well it models our reality?" but....
This is a game with dragons in, so who cares about how well it models our reality?
Assuming you knew the population of medieval England to the head, and you knew the exact number of manors...it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to anything because medieval England didn't have dragons, orcs, magic or elves in it, so why would those statistics be relevant at all when it came to running a game of D&D?
The only important consideration is: Does ACKS work on its own terms? That is, does it create a satisfying experience for the different tiers of play that were implicit in OD&D but not teased out?
The answer is yes, in my view.
EDIT: To which I'll add, I don't want for a second to disparage historical research where it is useful - i.e. in a historical or historically based game.
Quote from: estar;585102Back to my question, could you point me to the source where you got the 10,000 manor figure. Thanks.
The Fortnightly Review, volume 13, "The Land Question," p.92
"According to the Domesday Survey, the land of England was parcelled out amongst 1,400 tenants in capite, and 7,821 mesne tenants, so that, adding these two numbers together, there would seem to have been, roughly, 9,000 or 10,000 manors in England. It curiously happens that there were just about this number of parishes in England..."
See Also:
Ernest W. Burgess, The Function of Socialization in Social Evolution, p. 87. "After the Norman Conquest, the English social constitution was an aggregation of nearly 10,000 practically self-sustaining agricultural village communities, each under the personal authority of the lord of the manor"
Edward P. Cheney, American Historical Review, v. 11, p. 29-35.
"Above 10,000 manors in England."
Ben Fine, The Elgar Companion, p. 136.
"William carved out some 10,000 manors in England."
Quote from: noisms;585105Assuming you knew the population of medieval England to the head, and you knew the exact number of manors...it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to anything because medieval England didn't have dragons, orcs, magic or elves in it, so why would those statistics be relevant at all when it came to running a game of D&D?
Yes. Dragons alone are going to seriously warp settlement patterns and demographics, as are all the other big apex predators prevalent in most fantasy settings. Then you add in other civilisations, often hostile civilisations and human settlement patters are going to be very different indeed.
Quote from: jadrax;585108Yes. Dragons alone are going to seriously warp settlement patterns and demographics, as are all the other big apex predators prevalent in most fantasy settings. Then you add in other civilisations, often hostile civilisations and human settlement patters are going to be very different indeed.
Heck, you can leave out dragons and other monsters. Just take ONE sentient, belligerent bipedal race such as orcs and throw them into the mix and you literally have a world of difference.
Quote from: noisms;585105Seriously, why does anybody care?
Why would anybody care about the mediaevalish feel of AD&D First Ed versus the Ren Fair feel of AD&D 2nd edition? Why would anybody object to or embrace the dungeon-punk in 3rd edition? Why would anybody have a problem with AD&D First Ed and its polearms, or praise the anime super-heroic feel of 4th edition?
The bottom line is that the feel of a setting is important to some gamers (a great many of them, I'd wager, actually). Whether that pans out with their personal expectations, tastes, and so on. If the setting's feel meshes well with those elements, they are more likely to have fun interacting with the milieu and the make-believe. And the bottom line is for a game to be fun when you play it.
So some people do care about these elements. You don't. That's fine.
Scale matters, in fantasy.
A ten million person kingdom with enough land to feed its population is going to be hundreds of miles across, so you get countries on a very large (Greyhawk Great Kingdom-type) scale. The loss of a few borderland castles to raiding orcs is just a pinprick to the emperor of such a vast nation. Whereas Blackmoor is very small-scale, with a few tens of thousands of humans in the whole world; you can walk across a human kingdom in a few days. Losing one border castle to raiding orcs is a dire emergency.
Quote from: amacris;585096You know, now that you say that, this might be true of D&D retro-clone game designers. Much is explained.
Ironic...that's basically what I've been saying all thread.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;585098TB, the fact that you feel you need to 'defend one of your favorite games' should perhaps be setting off warning bells somewhere in your mind.
I often find myself correcting mistakes, but I try to avoid considering myself the 'defender' of anything, 'cause, y'know, these are games were talking about.
Semantics. I
am "correcting a mistake", but the only reason I'm doing it is because I care about a game I enjoy. You won't see me, e.g. correcting the Pundit's countless erroneous assumptions about storygames (which I don't play), though I'll often chip in to rectify the grossest exaggerations about WoD games (which I read, play and enjoy).
Quote from: Black Vulmea;585098Stop there. I didn't 'claim' anything - I pointed out what I thought P&P referenced in his post. I can see why you would take exception as lacking the nuance of the complete rule; can you also see why the advice to roll a single reaction check for up to a hundred followers at a time might be just a bit problematic? Maybe by contrasting how loyalty's handed in the 1e AD&D DMG, frex?
See, now that's the sort of response I was hoping for! :) I'm not trying to sell ACKS to people who already own a copy and didn't care much for it. I'm trying to milk some objective gaming discussion about games from this.
I don't have the DMG with me right now. How does it handle loyalty, and how do you feel the 1e system is superior to ACKS?
Quote from: Black Vulmea;585098I'm not being "crabby for the sake of being crabby." Aside from our mutual distaste for Dragonlance, I think James Maliszewski is overrated as a commentator on roleplaying games,
I'm not defending either, even though I have no beef with Malizewski...
Quote from: Black Vulmea;585098and I think Tavis Allison is way too in love with his own marketing spin, trying to position Autarch as 'the Paizo of the OSR.'
...and I have no idea what you mean by this. James and Tavis are big boys and capable enough of responding to criticisms as they see fit.
The sole motivation behind my posts was pointing out what I believe to be a misrepresentation of certains subsystems in ACKS.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;585098None whatsoever. :)
All good. :)
QuoteI think Tavis Allison is way too in love with his own marketing spin, trying to position Autarch as 'the Paizo of the OSR.'
I'm excited to announce a second edition of ACKS, the "tightly written retro-clone" by "the Paizo of the OSR", Autarch.
I kid, I kid.
Quote from: amacris;585106The Fortnightly Review, volume 13, "The Land Question," p.92
"
Thanks, appreciate it.
(Now off to look up some stuff :))
Quote from: PatW;585012That's not actually the way it works. You don't get a tax credit for charitable donations, instead you don't get taxed on income you donate to charity.
So in a simple world, you make $10,000 a year and have a 10% flat tax. You owe $1,000. If you write a $1,000 check to The Human Fund and deduct it, it doesn't mean you have a $0 tax bill - it means you're only taxed on $9,000 of income, and actually still owe $900.
I'd talk to a lawyer if I were you, you may be a very generous tax cheat.
This actually has nothing to do with charitable donations which deduct from the taxes owed. You can legally declare on moral grounds that you do not like how you're tax money is being spent by the government and instead send any money owed to an officially recognized charity of one's choice, an option I discovered through my lawyer in the late 90s. Yes, I recommend speaking to your own research lawyer before pursuing this, but the optionis there and one I've taken advantage of.
Of course, legally the U.S. government has no right to force any citizen to pay taxes, but an
unratified amendment to the consititution in 1913 makes this a hard one to fight.
QuoteTotally irrelevant...(snip)
Yes, this response was totally irrelevant to what I said.
QuoteIf you made money on your eBay sales and garage sales you'd have to declare the income, but how often is that the case? You're probably selling at a net loss, unless there's some depreciation factor in the tax code. But that's not really germane to selling a new book you just published.
Not sure what your point is in regards to my point. Regardless of net loss or gain, all income is supposed to be reported. The reality is that it isn't and unless one is making a lot more than 100,000 a year, neither the IRS nor Revenue Ca have the resources nor inclination to pursue this on an individual basis.
Quote from: TristramEvans;585136This actually has nothing to do with charitable donations which deduct from the taxes owed. You can legally declare on moral grounds that you do not like how you're tax money is being spent by the government and instead send any money owed to an officially recognized charity of one's choice, an option I discovered through my lawyer in the late 90s. Yes, I recommend speaking to your own research lawyer before pursuing this, but the optionis there and one I've taken advantage of.
Of course, legally the U.S. government has no right to force any citizen to pay taxes, but an unratified amendment to the consititution in 1913 makes this a hard one to fight.
I'm sure you've heard this before, but one of the few things that can actually light a flickering candleflame of joy in an IRS auditor's dead heart is the prospect of crucifying a tax protestor. And what you've described, with the argument you've given, is pretty much an exemplary specimen of the type. The old "taxes are illegal because of an unratified constitution" argument has failed miserably in front of the courts, and only ever seems to induce a
greater penalty than simple old-fashioned tax fraud. This situation will not end well for you, and I would recommend getting right with the IRS before they get around to working out their emotional issues on you.
Quote from: TristramEvans;585136This actually has nothing to do with charitable donations which deduct from the taxes owed. You can legally declare on moral grounds that you do not like how you're tax money is being spent by the government and instead send any money owed to an officially recognized charity of one's choice, an option I discovered through my lawyer in the late 90s. Yes, I recommend speaking to your own research lawyer before pursuing this, but the optionis there and one I've taken advantage of.
Of course, legally the U.S. government has no right to force any citizen to pay taxes, but an unratified amendment to the consititution in 1913 makes this a hard one to fight.
EDIT - ok that was snarky, sorry about that if you saw it. But I think you really need a better tax lawyer.
As far as tax issues go, Kickstarter is quite tricky. We hired an accountant for Autarch, and he's had a hell of a time working out our profit and loss. For example, what does Kickstarter money count as? A donation? A deposit? A pre-order? An investment? The answer was not clear. It hinges in part on whether you are legally required to deliver a product, and whether the money is refundable to backers.
Another mind-breaking question was how to treat the sales of electronic product.
If you've never run a traditional publishing business, you might think the profit and loss would work something like this:
1) Pay $8,000 to get 1,000 books made.
2) Sell $10,000 worth of books.
3) Calculate profit of $2,000.
4) Pay taxes of ($2,000 x 0.33) $666.
5) Keep $1,333.
But that's not how it works at all. In fact it goes more like this:
1) Pay $8,000 to get 1,000 books made. Capitalize this $8,000 as an asset (inventory).
2) Sell 500 books at $20 each.
3) Deduct ($8,000/1,000) $8 as cost of goods sold from each book, for a $4,000 deduction. Inventory asset now $4,000.
4) Profit is therefore ($10,000 - $4,000) $6,000.
5) Taxes are therefore ($6,000 x .33) $2,000.
6) Cash remaining is ($10,000 - $8,000 - $2,000) $0.
But what happens, I asked, if the sale is of an e-book, as there's no inventory? Do we get to take a deduction for costs of goods sold anyway? What if it's purely an e-book? How do we capitalize the development cost into inventory when there's no inventory? Our accountant hasn't yet figured out if there's an official answer to that.
It's maddening.
Quote from: TristramEvans;585136Of course, legally the U.S. government has no right to force any citizen to paytaxes, but an unratified amendment to the consititution in 1913 makes this a hard one .
Good luck in tax court. Really this is your argument for sticking it to the man?
IRWS
Quote from: PatW;585140EDIT - ok that was snarky, sorry about that if you saw it. But I think you really need a better tax lawyer.
lol, I don't even live in the States anymore so the issue is mute. But random internet guy on an rpg forum vs established family lawyer? don't be offended if I roll my eyes.
Quote from: amacris;585142For example, what does Kickstarter money count as? A donation? A deposit? A pre-order? An investment? The answer was not clear. It hinges in part on whether you are legally required to deliver a product, and whether the money is refundable to backers.
My heart just grew two sizes.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585144Good luck in tax court. Really this is your argument for sticking it to the man?
IRWS
No, it is not. Reread what I said.
Quote from: TristramEvans;585148No, it is not. Reread what I said.
Oh I did. My father is a tax lawyer, as was my grandfather*. I understood what you wrote.
IRWS
* I'm not though. Too many lawyers in my family
Quote from: econobus;585146My heart just grew two sizes.
Well, I'm glad to aid you in your personal development of compassion, but I'm not asking for sympathy. I was agreeing with the earlier posters who said it was complex and not to be ignored.
Quote from: amacris;585152Well, I'm glad to aid you in your personal development of compassion, but I'm not asking for sympathy. I was agreeing with the earlier posters who said it was complex and not to be ignored.
Who said sympathy? I've been beating my head on exactly these questions for awhile now. I am the earlier poster and I claim my five quid.
Quote from: econobus;585153Who said sympathy? I've been beating my head on exactly these questions for awhile now. I am the earlier poster and I claim my five quid.
Oh, man, my bad. I thought you were being sarcastic.
Email me at alex at autarch dot co if you want to discuss. Happy to share with you how our accountant ultimately handled these issues.
Having GS-double-digit IRS auditors in my family, this sort of thing has come up a time or two.
The issue is legality, and the legality of that initial income tax admendment is quite possibly questionable. I've read and counter-read the arguments...it's questionable, but that's about it.
Unfortunately, there is no question of a conflict of interest when you have federal judges ruling on the actions of the federal governmnet in a federal court. Toss in the very real threat to the judges by the IRS and no reasonable person could expect a trustworthy ruling here.
In short, ultimately the legality is irrelevant. The federal government will simply shoot you in the head and take the money regardless of whatever words are written on a piece of paper.
Quote from: amacris;585154Oh, man, my bad. I thought you were being sarcastic. Email me at alex at autarch dot co if you want to discuss. Happy to share with you how our accountant ultimately handled these issues.
Hard to tell in this hardboiled world but nah, if I was being sarcastic I'd probably focus on some other body part. Thanks. I might take you up on that -- under the seal of the confessional.
Quote from: econobus;585157Hard to tell in this hardboiled world but nah, if I was being sarcastic I'd probably focus on some other body part. Thanks. I might take you up on that -- under the seal of the confessional.
Nah I think you meant to type dick. Remember vile talk is ok if you're 12.
IRWS
Quote from: Doom;585156In short, ultimately the legality is irrelevant. The federal government will simply shoot you in the head and take the money regardless of whatever words are written on a piece of paper.
This. Whether it's *actually* Constitutional and legal, or not, that's the reality of the situation. If you're operating in their territory (and sometimes even if you're not), they insist on the right to dip their beak. If you resist paying up, bad things will happen. First, they'll increase the amount you have to pay, as a penalty for not paying the first time around. If you still resist, they'll send armed men to imprison you. Resist too much and you'll be shot and killed.
Quote from: kythri;585078I find it amusing that he warns against being taken in by vultures, but went apeshit when someone made a similar warning in his advert for his questionable consulting services.
You can't go wrong if you focus on what you can do for your customer. That's the best place to start, no matter what you do.
But I can appreciate the frustration of having competitors that over suggest (I won't say "promise") they are better at what they do, when in fact they are not offering something better. Not everything is easily benchmarked.
Also, when you consult, your good name is your most important asset. Im generalizing I know but, people are a lot quicker to believe the bad than the good.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585158Nah I think you meant to type dick. Remember vile talk is ok if you're 12.
Yeah, I didn't want to be vile. Besides while I'm sure ACKS is fine it gives me no chubby. And if Kickstarter accounting did, I'd never leave the house!
Quote from: Benoist;585114Why would anybody care about the mediaevalish feel of AD&D First Ed versus the Ren Fair feel of AD&D 2nd edition? Why would anybody object to or embrace the dungeon-punk in 3rd edition? Why would anybody have a problem with AD&D First Ed and its polearms, or praise the anime super-heroic feel of 4th edition?
The bottom line is that the feel of a setting is important to some gamers (a great many of them, I'd wager, actually). Whether that pans out with their personal expectations, tastes, and so on. If the setting's feel meshes well with those elements, they are more likely to have fun interacting with the milieu and the make-believe. And the bottom line is for a game to be fun when you play it.
So some people do care about these elements. You don't. That's fine.
You're missing the point. I wasn't questioning why people should care about "feel". I was questioning why people should care what the population of England was in the 12th Century as if it's important in terms of what a D&D world would be like.
Quote from: Tavis;585101Funding living expenses would be totally wack; I'll have to go back and read the backer updates to see what I might have said to give that impression and write a thousand times never to do it again.
We've seen some discussion upthread about whether Kickstarter robs creatives of the motivation to do things by putting dessert before dinner, but budgeting for more dessert the longer it takes to eat dinner would incentivize delaying. That's not at all the case with Dwimmermount.
[Dwimmermount update #24]
Delays in writing are something James has to take responsibility for, but since I was the primary author of the Kickstarter project page I bear the brunt of the responsibility for not clearly communicating that your backing would be used to support James' time in writing up the dungeon from his notes.
[End quote]
This is where the idea that living expenses were being covered by backer funds came from. If that isn't the case and money is not being used to cover expenses, why does James need money for his writing time?
Quote from: I run with scissors;585151Oh I did. My father is a tax lawyer, as was my grandfather*. I understood what you wrote.
If you did, then you wouldn't have asked that question. It is the truth, but despite that no one has yet successfully argued it past the Supreme Court. If the IRS wants to f--- you, they will. The point is, they don't care about the chump change that the majority of Americans make in income every year. There's a distinct difference between enforceable laws, and the byzantine legal system.
Quote from: Doom;585156Having GS-double-digit IRS auditors in my family, this sort of thing has come up a time or two.
The issue is legality, and the legality of that initial income tax admendment is quite possibly questionable. I've read and counter-read the arguments...it's questionable, but that's about it.
Unfortunately, there is no question of a conflict of interest when you have federal judges ruling on the actions of the federal governmnet in a federal court. Toss in the very real threat to the judges by the IRS and no reasonable person could expect a trustworthy ruling here.
In short, ultimately the legality is irrelevant. The federal government will simply shoot you in the head and take the money regardless of whatever words are written on a piece of paper.
Exactly. The only real freedom any citizen has is based entirely on the government not caring enough to stick it to them.
Quote from: The Butcher;585127See, now that's the sort of response I was hoping for! :) I'm not trying to sell ACKS to people who already own a copy and didn't care much for it. I'm trying to milk some objective gaming discussion about games from this.
Then it's probably a good topic for a thread of its own.
Quote from: noisms;585182You're missing the point. I wasn't questioning why people should care about "feel". I was questioning why people should care what the population of England was in the 12th Century as if it's important in terms of what a D&D world would be like.
Apparently you've missed my point as well.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;585188If that isn't the case and money is not being used to cover expenses, why does James need money for his writing time?
Because it's a professional project and not an amateur one. That's not a value judgement, both can be laudable, but it seems to me that expecting money for your writing time is what makes it professional.
Since that seems like a pretty obvious answer I will assume the confusion comes from the term "support his time". In my day job helping write research grant applications, we talk about a budget being used to support someone's time as a way of saying "this person will be spending the effort on this project that they could be using to do something else." If you expect it will take two months of full time effort for them to do the work, then you put aside money to support that much of their time. Here the idea is that this person might be doing lots of professional things other than research - clinical duties, teaching, administration - so when I say "funding would be used to support James' time" it doesn't occur to me that I need to specify that we're only talking about the time projected to do the thing, or that this is the same as saying "$8K is budgeted for this work" and leaving the time it takes to do it undefined.
Quote from: amacris;585086Right. Because the necessity to rely on estimates is HILARIOUS.
Yes, historical estimates of population are just that, estimates. Or conjectures. Because historians can hardly agree on anything. They can't agree on the size of the armies that fought in any of Alexander's battles. They can't agree on whether Jesus existed. They can't agree why there's so little archaeological evidence for Charlemagne. But when you're designing a game, you don't get to have the luxury of claiming ignorance. You have to pick your poison.
Seriously, though: If you want to critique the game, I'd be happy to hear your reasoning for why you ACTUALLY think it's broken. You can look at our forums and blog and see I'm happy to drill down to really fine detail. But just engaging in drive by sarcasm is pretty lame.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you have researched the issue and made a decision on how you wanted to abstractly represent your information for a game, that's all that is required. Heck even the part where he says 5 members of a peasant family is icing on the cake could be argued.
For example, medieval households in St. Germain averaged 5.75 with a median of 6.1 This includes poorer and richer households. The poorest households were 4.41 and the richest were just over 8. Those without taxable land 3.64-5.02. (See Medieval Households by David Herlihy)
Quote from: Tavis;585215Because it's a professional project and not an amateur one. That's not a value judgement, both can be laudable, but it seems to me that expecting money for your writing time is what makes it professional.
Since that seems like a pretty obvious answer I will assume the confusion comes from the term "support his time". In my day job helping write research grant applications, we talk about a budget being used to support someone's time as a way of saying "this person will be spending the effort on this project that they could be using to do something else." If you expect it will take two months of full time effort for them to do the work, then you put aside money to support that much of their time. Here the idea is that this person might be doing lots of professional things other than research - clinical duties, teaching, administration - so when I say "funding would be used to support James' time" it doesn't occur to me that I need to specify that we're only talking about the time projected to do the thing, or that this is the same as saying "$8K is budgeted for this work" and leaving the time it takes to do it undefined.
OK, so then this post establishes 2 things:
1) This is a professional project. Many people have expressed the view that this as a hobbyist project and expectations should be low because of that. Whether or not the expectations from James' detractors is reasonable aside, it seems that you have clearly established that this is viewed internally as a professional project, and that James also does, as such to justify his time as being supported. So nobody should be thinking that James sees this as a hobbyist job.
2) This is more an observation, but my interpretation of your post is that the amount designated for supporting James' time was based upon a theoretical salary over a proposed period. But since all the money was turned over to James, there are no controls over that other than James' self-control, correct? And you may be fine with that, and he might have iron-clad self-control. But there is a risk that with the 2 months of time that he was to be paid salary for work as-yet unperformed when the DM KS ended (based upon writing finished in June) going out to possibly 12+ months, that if he lacks that self-control that money would not exist to print and ship the thing.
This is based upon an assumption that an escrow account was not created as "all money was turned over to James".
Quote from: EOTB;585218OK, so then this post establishes 2 things:
You beat me too it.
IRWS
As a tangent, whenever I run my middle ages campaigns, while societies based on RW Europe might be more or less populated, my societies based on RW non-Europe societies get at least double the population at a minimum. While Paris was 80k+ Tenochtitlan was 200k+ (and produced a net export of agricultural goods from within their city to boot). So my fantasy non-Europes toss European medieval guidelines thoroughly out the window, and I barely take heed of them for my fantasy Europes.
I like it that way because it leaves my players starting fresh and naked. Pay attention to me, the GM, I'll tell you how the world works. But then I rarely have PCs get so heavily into my fantasy civilization logistics, so I don't have to invent everything from the bottom up before play. The times it does happen is rather nice, however; I like world building, even if it's on the spot.
Quote from: eotb;585218ok, so then this post establishes 2 things:
bazinga!
Quote from: Tavis;585215Because it's a professional project and not an amateur one. That's not a value judgement, both can be laudable, but it seems to me that expecting money for your writing time is what makes it professional.
Then, from the start, it seems that the professional person being professionally paid to professionally produce this professional product should have been professionally providing status updates on a regular basis, along with regularly producing pieces of that product at pre-scheduled intervals, with the ONLY aberration being the family emergency.
Quote from: kythri;585239Then, from the start, it seems that the professional person being professionally paid to professionally produce this professional product should have been professionally providing status updates on a regular basis, along with regularly producing pieces of that product at pre-scheduled intervals, with the ONLY aberration being the family emergency.
You're crazy because after all Jim is a hobbyist. I en someone has to summarize Ares magazine.
The more I think about this the more annoyed I'm becoming. It would have been nice to have this more detaied in the f'ing kckstarter copy.
Jim's a coward, this is poorly run, and built on obsufucation.
Now let me get back on my elephant.
IRWS
No need for the butthurt back-and-forth jokes BS, IRWS.
These are relevant, serious questions.
Quote from: Benoist;585249No need for the butthurt back-and-forth jokes BS, IRWS.
These are relevant, serious questions.
?
I've been at this for a month. Every few days a new nugget comes out that further confirms what I've been saying. I've been very restrain as of late. I am not butt hurt. I am stun by the utter lack of transparency with this.
No where is it stated on the projects kick starter that Jim got the money. No mention that he got a salary. No where is it mentioned if any checks and balances are in place to ensure the money goes to the project.
Every time I try to engage in a honest debate I've been told I have the problem.
I doubt this project will ever see the finish line, and I doubt there will be enough money to honor all rewards.
Here's a question: whose doing all the ordering of all those rewards? Jim? Or is Tavis doing that.
IRWS
Quote from: Benoist;585249These are relevant, serious questions.
What I don't understand is the double talk.
"I should have been more clear that part of the Kickstarter was going to support James."
"Why would people think he's getting his expenses covered?"
"Of course we're paying him a salary; he's a professional."
There's nothing wrong with James reverting to his professional status, and I don't think that a Kickstarter necessarily has a requirement to disclose its inner workings.
But the astonishment over why people are confused by the communication is getting harder to take seriously.
It seems to me like it'd be more outrageous if Autarch was raising money for James Maliszewski's Dwimmermount, none of which would go to him.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585248It would have been nice to have this more detaied in the f'ing kckstarter copy. Jim's a coward, this is poorly run, and built on obsufucation.
I'd be interested to see examples of a Kickstarter that says either "the creative talent involved in this project will be paid for their work" or the opposite. That's not rhetoric; if that's what's expected I'd like to know how people are phrasing it.
Man, if I had known the money would have been used to help James get through a tough time I would have gladly contributed to this kickstarter.
Quote from: Tavis;585262I'd be interested to see examples of a Kickstarter that says either "the creative talent involved in this project will be paid for their work" or the opposite. That's not rhetoric; if that's what's expected I'd like to know how people are phrasing it.
There's a pretty distinct difference between "the creative talent involved in this project will be paid for their work" and "the funding raised will immediately pay for the creative talent's living expenses while developing the product" - especially in an industry that traditionally pays for work upon it's completion, rather than providing any kind of advance.
Man, tried to edit in a multiquote and the discussion moved too fast.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585248No mention that he got a salary. No where is it mentioned if any checks and balances are in place to ensure the money goes to the project.
I also haven't seen any Kickstarters that set up escrow accounts. Certainly Kickstarter itself doesn't have any checks and balances; they collect the money and turn it over to the creator. The basic level of trust that's always involved when you back a project is that you trust the creators won't take the money and run, refusing requests for refunds and leaving backers trying to collect from Kickstarter (currently untested waters as far as I know) or their credit card companies (as someone suggested on the Autarch forums, which sounds more feasible).
Dwimmermount is delayed, for sure. Communication has been a problem in general, sure, and y'all are upset at James for not being more involved in that communication and for other projects he promised and didn't deliver (but also didn't get paid for). But spending the money that's allocated for delivering rewards on anything else is straight up financial malfeasance whether you blow it on coke and whores right away or gradually spend it on living expenses. If there was any evidence that James was a thief, I reckon you'd be the one with the links for it, IRWS, and I'm not seeing it. Nothing that I was able to turn up beforehand, that has happened internally since, or that's going on now lessens my confidence that backers will get the rewards that they pledged for.
Quote from: EOTB;585258What I don't understand is the double talk. "I should have been more clear that part of the Kickstarter was going to support James." "Why would people think he's getting his expenses covered?" "Of course we're paying him a salary; he's a professional." There's nothing wrong with James reverting to his professional status, and I don't think that a Kickstarter necessarily has a requirement to disclose its inner workings. But the astonishment over why people are confused by the communication is getting harder to take seriously.
No, a salary is something you can keep drawing as long as you're working. People who make anything like a living at RPGs are said to be as rare as astronauts, but the number of people who earn a salary in this field are as rare as those who've made a moon landing. Whether through a Kickstarter or a traditional per-word payment, the amount of money that's allotted for writing is what it is; unlike a salary it doesn't increase if you take longer to do it.
Not to answer your astonishment with mine, but I really am surprised that people are unclear on the concept here. Earlier I was apologizing for not clarifying that some of the funds were going to pay James for writing yet to come (like getting an advance) in addition to writing that already existed when the project launched (like turning in a freelance assignment). I didn't think I'd have to clarify that he wasn't writing for free. Is it a surprise that Monte Cook is going to pay himself for writing Numenera? The Kickstarter page doesn't say so either way, but I would sure be astonished if he wasn't.
Man, tried to edit in a multiquote and the discussion moved too fast.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585248No mention that he got a salary. No where is it mentioned if any checks and balances are in place to ensure the money goes to the project.
No, a salary is something you can keep drawing as long as you're working. People who make anything like a living at RPGs are said to be as rare as astronauts, but the number of people who earn a salary in this field are as rare as those who've made a moon landing. Whether through a Kickstarter or a traditional per-word payment, the amount of money that's allotted for writing is what it is; unlike a salary it doesn't increase if you take longer to do it.
I haven't seen any Kickstarters that set up escrow accounts. Certainly Kickstarter itself doesn't have any checks and balances; they collect the money and turn it over to the creator. The basic level of trust that's always involved when you back a project is that you trust the creators won't take the money and run, refusing requests for refunds and leaving backers trying to collect from Kickstarter (currently untested waters as far as I know) or their credit card companies (as someone suggested on the Autarch forums, which sounds more feasible).
Dwimmermount is delayed, for sure. Communication has been a problem in general, sure, and y'all are upset at James for not being more involved in that communication and for other projects he promised and didn't deliver (but also didn't get paid for). But spending the money that's allocated for delivering rewards on anything else is straight up financial malfeasance whether you blow it on coke and whores right away or gradually spend it on living expenses. If there was any evidence that James was a thief, I reckon you'd be the one with the links for it, IRWS, and I'm not seeing it. Nothing that I was able to turn up beforehand, that has happened internally since, or that's going on now lessens my confidence that backers will get the rewards that they pledged for.
Quote from: EOTB;585258What I don't understand is the double talk. "I should have been more clear that part of the Kickstarter was going to support James." "Why would people think he's getting his expenses covered?" "Of course we're paying him a salary; he's a professional." There's nothing wrong with James reverting to his professional status, and I don't think that a Kickstarter necessarily has a requirement to disclose its inner workings. But the astonishment over why people are confused by the communication is getting harder to take seriously.
Not to answer your astonishment with mine, but I really am surprised that people are unclear on the concept here. Earlier I was apologizing for not clarifying that some of the funds were going to pay James for writing yet to come (like getting an advance) in addition to writing that already existed when the project launched (like turning in a freelance assignment). I didn't think I'd have to clarify that he wasn't writing for free. Is it a surprise that Monte Cook is going to pay himself for writing Numenera? The Kickstarter page doesn't say so either way, but I would sure be astonished if he wasn't.
Wow, in just two posts Tavis turns from reasonable guy who loyally defends his project into a weasely, double-talking PR-politician crossover.
Yuck.
Quote from: kythri;585265There's a pretty distinct difference between "the creative talent involved in this project will be paid for their work" and "the funding raised will immediately pay for the creative talent's living expenses while developing the product" - especially in an industry that traditionally pays for work upon it's completion, rather than providing any kind of advance.
That difference is just Kickstarter. Traditional RPG publishing works one way, Kickstarter turns it backwards. Confusion and/or hilarity results.
Living expenses is a red herring. It's not part of the Dwimmermount budget, never has been. If I buy a ticket to see a band, I might like tell myself that I'm helping to support the lifestyle of the musicians, whether that's coke and whores or ramen noodles. But what's really happening is a two step process; Kickstarter just changes the order in which they occur.
If you get a paycheck you use it to pay for living expenses, right? And if you run a small business of which you are an employee, you write yourself a paycheck from your business account. Then you cash it in your personal one, which you use to pay your personal bills.
If you run a Kickstarter, or if your business needs to spend a bunch of money in this fiscal year, you might write yourself a paycheck for work yet to be done. In this case you can move the money to your personal account now and pay your living expenses ahead of time for the time you'll be doing this work. But if it takes longer to do than planned, and you eat more ramen noodles, that doesn't make more money appear in your personal account.
Quote from: Settembrini;585270Wow, in just two posts Tavis turns from reasonable guy who loyally defends his project into a weasely, double-talking PR-politician crossover. Yuck.
For better or worse I remain the same guy I always have been. It's probably good that two posts won't turn me into someone else, because I would have made those posts back at the turn of the century with regrettable results.
Specifically I'm still trying to answer questions and explain the situation. If that's coming out as double-talk, I'll take another swing at it.
Before responding, I want to be clear that at this point I still expect the rewards to come out and the kickstarter to end well - if for no other reason than 5 years of James' work on his blog and the accumulated goodwill are on the line.
That said, there remain worthy points of discussion.
Quote from: Tavis;585268I also haven't seen any Kickstarters that set up escrow accounts.
No, but we also haven't seen many kickstarters where a U.S. company runs it for someone who lives out of the country.
Quote from: Tavis;585268Certainly Kickstarter itself doesn't have any checks and balances; they collect the money and turn it over to the creator.
Right, so they collected the money and turned it over to Autarch, who is the creator. But that's not the reality either. Autarch turned it over a second time to the real creator.
Quote from: Tavis;585268The basic level of trust that's always involved when you back a project is that you trust the creators won't take the money and run, refusing requests for refunds and leaving backers trying to collect from Kickstarter (currently untested waters as far as I know) or their credit card companies (as someone suggested on the Autarch forums, which sounds more feasible).
Autarch is the creator, legally. The only post I've seen on the intarwebs about getting a refund said it came specifically from James.
Quote from: Tavis;585268If there was any evidence that James was a thief, I reckon you'd be the one with the links for it, IRWS, and I'm not seeing it. Nothing that I was able to turn up beforehand, that has happened internally since, or that's going on now lessens my confidence that backers will get the rewards that they pledged for.
There is no evidence James is a thief, but do you agree that there is plenty of evidence that even the flimsy consumer protections offered by Kickstarter have been negated here? Now all the backers have at all is trust, and the ability to possibly take a dispute to their credit cards.
But even that could be problematic, because the Kickstarter ended in April, and many credit cards require that you dispute a charge within 6 months. So if people on good faith hold on and then something does go bad, they don't even have that protection based upon the expected completion date.
Quote from: Tavis;585268No, a salary is something you can keep drawing as long as you're working. People who make anything like a living at RPGs are said to be as rare as astronauts, but the number of people who earn a salary in this field are as rare as those who've made a moon landing. Whether through a Kickstarter or a traditional per-word payment, the amount of money that's allotted for writing is what it is; unlike a salary it doesn't increase if you take longer to do it.
Not to answer your astonishment with mine, but I really am surprised that people are unclear on the concept here. Earlier I was apologizing for not clarifying that some of the funds were going to pay James for writing yet to come (like getting an advance) in addition to writing that already existed when the project launched (like turning in a freelance assignment). I didn't think I'd have to clarify that he wasn't writing for free. Is it a surprise that Monte Cook is going to pay himself for writing Numenera? The Kickstarter page doesn't say so either way, but I would sure be astonished if he wasn't.
I've never gotten a check in the RPG biz, but I'm willing to guess there's something even rarer: an RPG company that hands over the entire budget for a RPG book, including production costs, to a freelancer, and says "we know you're good for it". Even someone as respected as JM is in our little community.
Because that's what's happened here. Autarch is legally responsible to Kickstarter for fulfilling the reward, but has freelanced the dungeon out to James. Sure, he established the concept of Dwimmermount and had some of it done already (which apparently was also paid in arrears through the kickstarter) but he legally owes not one single backer a single thing. Unlike Monte Cook's kickstarter. The way that Autarch and James structured it put an additional layer of companies (at least one presuming Autarch doesn't create its own LLC for each separate Kickstarter apart from its normal company) and an international border between the backers and the writer (as he is not the creator) who is holding all their money. Somehow I doubt that was ever intended by Kickstarter. It doesn't sound like "crazy creative with a dream" anymore.
And none of this extra risk for the backers is in any way absolutely necessary anyway; there is nothing that would have prevented James from establishing the U.S. business entity, and U.S. bank account, to run his own Kickstarter. Last time I checked, Toronto was minutes away from American attorneys and bank branches. So this diminishing of backer's protections, further diluted by the prolonged nature possibly negating the ability to cancel by credit card, is entirely voluntary and/or purposeful, even if not specifically with intent to put backers in a worse position than the normal shitty Kickstarter "rights" they hold.
To what advantage or benefit? A cross-marketing opportunity? James could still have promoted a ACK version with his own kickstarter.
Quote from: Tavis;585271That difference is just Kickstarter. Traditional RPG publishing works one way, Kickstarter turns it backwards. Confusion and/or hilarity results.
Living expenses is a red herring. It's not part of the Dwimmermount budget, never has been...
If you get a paycheck you use it to pay for living expenses, right? And if you run a small business of which you are an employee, you write yourself a paycheck from your business account. Then you cash it in your personal one, which you use to pay your personal bills.
If you run a Kickstarter, or if your business needs to spend a bunch of money in this fiscal year, you might write yourself a paycheck for work yet to be done. In this case you can move the money to your personal account now and pay your living expenses ahead of time for the time you'll be doing this work. But if it takes longer to do than planned, and you eat more ramen noodles, that doesn't make more money appear in your personal account.
Yes, and when I get a paycheck from my business, it's usually because I'm drawing a salary from it - n'est pas? (Or else I'm taking a distribution from my LLC/Corp, but that's technically not a paycheck - not really the issue here, but a distinction.)
And furthermore, why would you need to worry about this fiscal year when the original play was to have it done in a handful of months? I understand that fiscal years can start and end at any particular time of the calendar year, but June 30 would be an unusual choice for a new company. This last bit isn't necessarily me saying "shennanigans!" - could be totally legit - but that's not going to make those who wonder about whether or not this kickstarter ever was credibly internally expected to be done in June, think that they're off base with that one, if the draw had to be done now because it wasn't thought that the profit would be realized within the same fiscal year.
I think the lessons for future kickstarter "creators" and backers go beyond the schedule and communication of progress, here. The backers are really in an exceptionally poor position, even worse than normal.
Quote from: Tavis;585271That difference is just Kickstarter. Traditional RPG publishing works one way, Kickstarter turns it backwards. Confusion and/or hilarity results.
Living expenses is a red herring. It's not part of the Dwimmermount budget, never has been. If I buy a ticket to see a band, I might like tell myself that I'm helping to support the lifestyle of the musicians, whether that's coke and whores or ramen noodles. But what's really happening is a two step process; Kickstarter just changes the order in which they occur.
Be that as it may, I think it kinda smacks of misrepresentation when trying to frame it in the sarcastic context of "God forbid someone PAY an author for his work!"
Quote from: Tavis;585271If you get a paycheck you use it to pay for living expenses, right? And if you run a small business of which you are an employee, you write yourself a paycheck from your business account. Then you cash it in your personal one, which you use to pay your personal bills.
If you run a Kickstarter, or if your business needs to spend a bunch of money in this fiscal year, you might write yourself a paycheck for work yet to be done. In this case you can move the money to your personal account now and pay your living expenses ahead of time for the time you'll be doing this work. But if it takes longer to do than planned, and you eat more ramen noodles, that doesn't make more money appear in your personal account.
Let me stress something: Yes, I'd be interested, from an educational standpoint, to see how Kickstarter funding is broken down on various projects, I honestly don't care what that money is used for, as long as all the backers receive what they were promised, and they receive it in a timely manner (i.e. either on, or pretty damned near, the promised goal dates).
Quote from: Tavis;585268I also haven't seen any Kickstarters that set up escrow accounts. Certainly Kickstarter itself doesn't have any checks and balances; they collect the money and turn it over to the creator. The basic level of trust that's always involved when you back a project is that you trust the creators won't take the money and run, refusing requests for refunds and leaving backers trying to collect from Kickstarter (currently untested waters as far as I know) or their credit card companies (as someone suggested on the Autarch forums, which sounds more feasible).
And I do not know of any Kickstarter that was set up as yours is. I trust Kickstarter to give my money pledged to the creative I backed. There is no dispute with this.
What I do not like, and I am beginning to find untrustworthy, are two individuals who enter into a contract/agreement/partnership that has one side act as if the Kickstarter is theirs, makes promises as if the Kickstarter is theirs, and then deal with the fallout as if the Kickstarter is theirs, only to then reveal, that they were the middle man, and they turned all monies over to the other party. Furthermore, the more you act as the spokesperson, the more it appears that you and your company are behind the Kickstarter.
Furthermore, nowhere in any of the official Kickstarter information, you as you have stated, created, state that all money would be given to Jim. That your contract with Grognardia Games stipulated this, and that your only apparent job was to run the Kickstarter.
I am sorry, but this is truly a problem, and your willful ignorance to the continued confusion and frustrations over this is insulting. You have used two analogies to describe this. One, you are a rock band. Two, baseball.
Here is a third one. You are a business. James is a business. James entered into agreement with your business, for the intent to help with the Kickstarter. By all outward appearances, it appears that your business is running the whole show. Backers in good faith, invest money into your business venture under promises that a product would be delivered by August. Once your business has the money, things go quite, other than a few press releases. After the investors start to ask questions, only then do answers begin to come, and only after harder questions are asked, are investors told that what they thought was true, was not true. Hell I'd call it a Ponzi Scheme, but no one is getting anything from this, but a slow release of the truth.
QuoteDwimmermount is delayed, for sure. Communication has been a problem in general, sure, and y'all are upset at James for not being more involved in that communication and for other projects he promised and didn't deliver (but also didn't get paid for).
Thousand Suns is his. Fourth Millennium is his. He at one time was with another company, and then went and formed his own company. Petty Gods was his, and it was conceived from the outset that it was a volunteer project. If he wanted money for it he should have either said so, or not do it. Just because Jim feels he should be paid, does not mean that those who give money to you are not told this.
This is the issue. If Jim was running the whole show, he would be called to answer. No matter how much you say otherwise, Autarch, LLC's name is all over it. You assumed the risk, and no matter how much you want to deflect the bad onto Jim, and the good on to you, you and Autarch are at risk.
If you were honest at the onset, and clearly spelled out the project none of these issues would have been raised.
QuoteBut spending the money that's allocated for delivering rewards on anything else is straight up financial malfeasance whether you blow it on coke and whores right away or gradually spend it on living expenses.
Nice deflection, however how this entire project was set up is financial malfeasance. You lead people to believe Autarch was running the whole show. Then reveal months later, you just collected the money, but all of it was then turned over to Jim per your contract. Ok, maybe this is dishonest, but I was being nice.
QuoteIf there was any evidence that James was a thief, I reckon you'd be the one with the links for it, IRWS, and I'm not seeing it. Nothing that I was able to turn up beforehand, that has happened internally since, or that's going on now lessens my confidence that backers will get the rewards that they pledged for.
Bully for you. However, there is more than enough evidence that Jim has a very difficult time doing anything, other than posting to his blog, ignore questions, and not communicating with people who dare to ask hard questions. Sorry if after all of this has come to light, I trust your judgement as much as I just Jim to suddenly communicate.
QuoteNo, a salary is something you can keep drawing as long as you're working. People who make anything like a living at RPGs are said to be as rare as astronauts, but the number of people who earn a salary in this field are as rare as those who've made a moon landing. Whether through a Kickstarter or a traditional per-word payment, the amount of money that's allotted for writing is what it is; unlike a salary it doesn't increase if you take longer to do it.
You're right this is not a salary, it is a hobby payout.
QuoteNot to answer your astonishment with mine, but I really am surprised that people are unclear on the concept here. Earlier I was apologizing for not clarifying that some of the funds were going to pay James for writing yet to come (like getting an advance) in addition to writing that already existed when the project launched (like turning in a freelance assignment). I didn't think I'd have to clarify that he wasn't writing for free. Is it a surprise that Monte Cook is going to pay himself for writing Numenera? The Kickstarter page doesn't say so either way, but I would sure be astonished if he wasn't.
I would also be astonished if Monte had an agreement to turn over all funds to the Swiss Underpants Gnomes upon close of the campaign and disbursement of fund.
Because at the end of the day, this is what has happened. Do not deflect questions and bring up nonsensical points. Autarch from the start gave all appearances that this was their baby. Only after the fact did we learn that this was not the case.
IRWS
Quote from: Tavis;585271That difference is just Kickstarter. Traditional RPG publishing works one way, Kickstarter turns it backwards. Confusion and/or hilarity results.
No Kickstarter does not confuse anything, you did. You, as the third party, run the campaign for the second party, and give the second party the money, while the third party assumes all the risk.
I am quite sure Kickstarter did not think there would be a second middle man in campaigns.
IRWS
Tavis,
that the money is NOT a salary makes it even more problematic, as I mentioned already!
It is a fixed amount. And every day James feeds himself on that reduces the money left for actual product.
A very real problem, even if I was sympathetic to JM.
Quote from: EOTB;585279Before responding, I want to be clear that at this point I still expect the rewards to come out and the kickstarter to end well - if for no other reason than 5 years of James' work on his blog and the accumulated goodwill are on the line.
I appreciate the clarification. I'm committed to making the promised rewards come out before too much more delay, having the Kickstarter end well, and striving for good communication with backers in the meantime. My committment can't make all the difference, but since my having put my own post-2008 reputation, and Autarch's newer one, on the line with Dwimmermount was a factor in at least some backers' decision to support the project I have to live up to that trust.
(Before '08 I was posting as tav_behemoth and having a different set of learning experiences with Behemoth3. Kickstarter is new and full of pitfalls, pre-orders have been around for a long time and spelled doom for Trampier among others, but I'm ready to attest that there are still plenty of ways to go wrong with traditional RPG publishing.)
One worthy point of discussion is why amacris and I (the key decision makers at Autarch for this one) thought it was worth putting our trust in James. His blog and his reputation were major factors, both because staking these on the project was a substantial commitment and because the years of work they represent forms some basis for confidence in future efforts. I also looked at James' freelance history, interactions within the gaming community I've had with him and observed him having with others, the quality of our internal communication before launching the project, and back-channel conversations with other folks who've worked with him. The results of that assessment were enough for us to go ahead. Only time will tell if that faith was justified, and if you're deciding whether to trust me or Autarch or James or Grognardia Games in the future you'll make your own decision according to your own set of criteria.
I don't think James is banking any additional goodwill by avoiding discussion about in public forums like this one, but that's not my call to make; everyone has to draw their own boundaries around their private life.
Quote from: EOTB;585279we also haven't seen many kickstarters where a U.S. company runs it for someone who lives out of the country.
Kickstarter's been saying they'll open up to non-US creators, so that may never be common. Mongoose's Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/judge-dredd-miniatures-game-block-war) lists them as being in Dayton, OH, so my guess is that they either had an existing US subsidiary or created a new one for the project.
Quote from: EOTB;585279Right, so {Kickstarter} collected the money and turned it over to Autarch, who is the creator. But that's not the reality either. Autarch turned it over a second time to the real creator. Autarch is the creator, legally. The only post I've seen on the intarwebs about getting a refund said it came specifically from James. There is no evidence James is a thief, but do you agree that there is plenty of evidence that even the flimsy consumer protections offered by Kickstarter have been negated here?
No, because as you say Autarch is still legally responsible. If refund requests were coming in and James was like "sorry dudes, all the money went to coke and whores," we'd have to find a way to cover the refunds. That'd involve a ton of tough choices, but going into default wouldn't be one of them. By the standards of a small RPG company we're doing pretty well and the fact that we have money in the bank owes just about everything to Kickstarter. Burning that bridge by letting a crowdfunded project go unfulfilled would be tantamount to folding the company, and we've put too much into Autarch (and gotten too much enjoyment out of it) for that to be an acceptable option.
Quote from: EOTB;585279It doesn't sound like "crazy creative with a dream" anymore.... To what advantage or benefit? A cross-marketing opportunity? James could still have promoted a ACK version with his own kickstarter.
Autarch's dedication to making commercial RPG products puts us in the path of some flak, but here our motivation really was of the crazy dream variety. We saw an opportunity to use our Kickstarter expertise to make Dwimmermount happen, and as fans and card-carrying OSR types we thought that was worth doing even though it offered no direct advantage to us (and a lot of liability). Having a US bank account is only part of the story. Although we're clearly still finding new mistakes to make, we had a lot of KS know-how built up with ACKS core and the Player's Companion and one problem with the Kickstarter consultancy approach is that much of it is stuff you have to do instead of just describe to someone else.
We thought Dwimmermount might not get published without Autarch getting involved, or worse might get crowdfunded in an even less capable way than it's turned out under our banner. After spending a lot of sleepless nights this year futilely trying to get one or another of the original megadungeons from the dawn of the hobby published from the fragmentary notes that survived their author, going after one that was a lot more accessible and still legendary in my own mind was a crazy dream I was ready to sign onto. It's not a decision I regret, although you're welcome to check up on that again when this thread has 158 pages instead of 79.
Quote from: EOTB;585279And furthermore, why would you need to worry about this fiscal year when the original play was to have it done in a handful of months? I understand that fiscal years can start and end at any particular time of the calendar year, but June 30 would be an unusual choice for a new company. This last bit isn't necessarily me saying "shennanigans!" - could be totally legit - but that's not going to make those who wonder about whether or not this kickstarter ever was credibly internally expected to be done in June, think that they're off base with that one, if the draw had to be done now because it wasn't thought that the profit would be realized within the same fiscal year.
Sorry, this is me trying to give an example from my day-job experience that just winds up confusing things. When you get a research grant, you generally receive a year's worth of money ahead of time. You don't get to keep whatever is left over at the end of the grant year, so there's often a rush to spend the money. (You're still accountable for how it's spent, so it has to be on things that were consistent with the original budget proposal but could be moved from one grant year to another.) I had some vague idea that a similar thing happens for non-grant-funded businesses due to fiscal year concerns, but that wasn't and isn't a concern for the Dwimmermount project, it was just a part of my ill-considered metaphor.
Quote from: EOTB;585279I think the lessons for future kickstarter "creators" and backers go beyond the schedule and communication of progress, here. The backers are really in an exceptionally poor position, even worse than normal.
Autarch is in an exceptionally poor position, but for backers the situation isn't any different from the Kickstarter standard. The worst case scenarios are that 1) the steady pace of James' recent writing evaporates, he throws in the towel, and there isn't a complete original-creator's version of the dungeon to publish, and/or 2) the money we passed to him vanishes before it can be used to fulfill rewards and/or offer refunds. I'm not expecting either to happen so I'm not certain how we'd respond, but in the case of #1 we'd probably have another author flesh out the notes. The result might be disappointing, but it'd be a good faith effort to fulfill expectations, and it'd be the same risk you usually take when you back a Kickstarter that the end result will kind of suck. (For me the example is FTL (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/64409699/ftl-faster-than-light), although I know other people who dig it.) In the case of #2 our good faith effort would be to cover the printing etc. or refunds on our own after the funds we passed to James went bad. There'd be some risk that this would prove impossible, but that's the same risk you usually take when you back an individual or company that might implode before fulfilling its promises. Having done Kickstarters successfully before means Autarch might be a lesser risk than a totally new company, but if you want to decide that our decisions on Dwimmermount show that we're too risky to back in future I've met my responsibility of giving you the info you need to make that choice.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585315Furthermore, nowhere in any of the official Kickstarter information, you as you have stated, created, state that all money would be given to Jim.
None of the Kickstarters I've looked at share information about how the money will be distributed internally. Like I said above, I'd be interested to see examples to the contrary. Payments to contributors is often a facet of the RPG biz that doesn't bear close examination, although when I met Kevin Siembada for the first time at this year's Gen Con it was refreshing to see that, without me even bringing up all the internet ruckus around his freelancers, he was eager to tell a fan his side of the story.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585315I am sorry, but this is truly a problem, and your willful ignorance to the continued confusion and frustrations over this is insulting.
I apologize for any insults offered or received, which clearly means I am not getting into the spirit of things.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585315No matter how much you say otherwise, Autarch, LLC's name is all over it. You assumed the risk, and no matter how much you want to deflect the bad onto Jim, and the good on to you, you and Autarch are at risk. If you were honest at the onset, and clearly spelled out the project none of these issues would have been raised.
I'm not denying that the risk is ours; see above. I also don't think I'm deflecting good or bad, or at least upthread Sett thinks I'm doing it in the opposite direction by refusing to cut James a new asshole. My goals are to own up to my own responsibility, explain why we made the decisions we did, and clarify the current situation. I can count on y'all to call me on my bullshit if I veer from that path.
I will argue with the idea that transparency about our internal contracts would have kept these issues from being raised. This stuff is coming up because the project is delayed. Talking about it beforehand would likely have made some backers decide not to pledge to the project, and that might have prevented some refunds, but it wouldn't have prevented the delays.
It also seems to be coming up because James attracts an unusual degree of critical scrutiny. I've backed other Kickstarters that have had longer delays without the same degree of pissed-offness, although perhaps this is just because I haven't cared to look for it in the right places.
Quote from: Settembrini;585324that the money is NOT a salary makes it even more problematic, as I mentioned already! It is a fixed amount. And every day James feeds himself on that reduces the money left for actual product.
A very real problem, even if I was sympathetic to JM.
I'm not following you. If you pay yourself a salary, you can justify feeding yourself day after day while the amount in your business account dwindles. Doing it that way would be a real problem, which is why I don't know anyone who does.
If you've set it up to pay yourself a fixed amount, but you spend it all and then start dipping into the business account to pay for ramen, you're stealing from your company.
Quote from: Settembrini;585324Tavis,
that the money is NOT a salary makes it even more problematic, as I mentioned already!
It is a fixed amount. And every day James feeds himself on that reduces the money left for actual product.
A very real problem, even if I was sympathetic to JM.
Maybe. Maybe not. For a lot of folks (me included), the kickstarter money is a business fund and you don't touch it except for business purposes.
When I did Compact Heroes, my cut was around $4500. I never touched a penny of that that went to my own personal expenses. It went to the $11000 bill for getting the game produced in a larger print run.
I also doubt that the Reaper KS is going to feed the owners, because we've already seen the #s where the money was just enough to cover getting the molds made and minis produced.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585315I am sorry, but this is truly a problem, and your willful ignorance to the continued confusion and frustrations over this is insulting.
Quote from: Tavis;585352I apologize for any insults offered or received, which clearly means I am not getting into the spirit of things.
Tavis should be paying JMal for this extended opportunity to hone his merchants' politesse in safe surroundings.
Quote from: Tavis;585352James was like "sorry dudes, all the money went to coke and whores,"
[/B]
What a rotter, never saved me any.
Quote from: Tavis;585352We thought Dwimmermount might not get published without Autarch getting involved, or worse might get crowdfunded in an even less capable way than it's turned out under our banner. After spending a lot of sleepless nights this year futilely trying to get one or another of the original megadungeons from the dawn of the hobby published from the fragmentary notes that survived their author, going after one that was a lot more accessible and still legendary in my own mind was a crazy dream I was ready to sign onto. It's not a decision I regret, although you're welcome to check up on that again when this thread has 158 pages instead of 79.
At the end of the day, would it have been such a big deal if this did not get published? Jim in October was stating how he was close to releasing the first volume. It seems to me, once the dollar signs started appearing, this project went off the rails.
QuoteAutarch is in an exceptionally poor position, but for backers the situation isn't any different from the Kickstarter standard. The worst case scenarios are that 1) the steady pace of James' recent writing evaporates, he throws in the towel, and there isn't a complete original-creator's version of the dungeon to publish, and/or 2) the money we passed to him vanishes before it can be used to fulfill rewards and/or offer refunds. I'm not expecting either to happen so I'm not certain how we'd respond, but in the case of #1 we'd probably have another author flesh out the notes.
And this is one of the problems with this entire endeavor. The backer's money did not go to who they thought it was going to, it was given to someone else. From our perspective, there are no checks and balances in place to ensure that things are moving the way we thought they were. I am sorry you do not realize this, but when I give money to X, and then find out X gave it all to Y, and I was not told this, I am rightfully skeptical about the honesty of the entire endeavor.
QuoteNone of the Kickstarters I've looked at share information about how the money will be distributed internally. Like I said above, I'd be interested to see examples to the contrary. Payments to contributors is often a facet of the RPG biz that doesn't bear close examination, although when I met Kevin Siembada for the first time at this year's Gen Con it was refreshing to see that, without me even bringing up all the internet ruckus around his freelancers, he was eager to tell a fan his side of the story.
Nowhere am I asking for an entire accounting. What I am asking for was disclosures at the start of the campaign that Autarch LLC was only the middle man in the entire campaign, and they would give all money to another party. You have, and had, a fiduciary duty to disclose this.
Yes, I agree, Kickstarter is built on trust. I do not dispute this. However, Kickstarter, from my jaded perspective, is not about a third party getting in the campaign that receives all the money raised by the second party.
QuoteWe thought Dwimmermount might not get published without Autarch getting involved, or worse might get crowdfunded in an even less capable way than it's turned out under our banner.
So what? I mean honestly, if you were so worried about this, why not just buy the whole thing outright from James, or put him under contract to produce it, and then Autarch LLC could have run the Kickstarter. Instead, you create needless confusions, and layers of secondary dealings.
QuoteI apologize for any insults offered or received, which clearly means I am not getting into the spirit of things.
If you want me to start hurtling insults I will. I do not appreciate the sarcasm. I am stricken by your apparent lack of understanding what is at issue here.
QuoteI will argue with the idea that transparency about our internal contracts would have kept these issues from being raised. This stuff is coming up because the project is delayed. Talking about it beforehand would likely have made some backers decide not to pledge to the project, and that might have prevented some refunds, but it wouldn't have prevented the delays.
All you had to do was state this:
Autarch LLC is running the campaign for Groganadia Games. At the end of the campaign, all funds will be turned over to Grognardia Games. Grognardia Games assumes all responsibilities for the successful completion of this campaign.
See how easy that is? No where are you spelling any big secrets out, but you are disclosing that your obligations are simply collecting find and dispersing them.
QuoteIt also seems to be coming up because James attracts an unusual degree of critical scrutiny. I've backed other Kickstarters that have had longer delays without the same degree of pissed-offness, although perhaps this is just because I haven't cared to look for it in the right places.
Again, you are sadly mistaken. Where the issues are stemming from is the lack of communication from anyone, and the apparent double dealing that was going on behind the scenes.
I've backed campaigns as well with delays, but at all times, those delays were communicated. It was only until recently were we getting any communication. Even then, we never got the full story of what the real deal was.
I truly wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but sadly Autarch LLC's handling of this hold thing, has soured my opinion of you (the company).
IRWS
Quote from: Tavis;585352I don't think James is banking any additional goodwill by avoiding discussion about in public forums like this one, but that's not my call to make; everyone has to draw their own boundaries around their private life.
I think James is making a terrible mistake in that department. It's bad because it makes you look like you, Tavis, are taking the bullets for him. It's bad because stonewalling people in a hobby that mostly functions on word-of-mouth is counter-productive. And it's bad because it makes him look like he can't deal with the responsibility that's been entrusted to him by people who have actually bet real money on this venture.
It's bad, and it does exactly the opposite of what's intended, because it frustrates people and makes them go on about the reasons
why he'd be stonewalling them in the first place. I know James a little bit from interacting with him at K&K (before he deleted his account on there after he got criticized) and I know that's part of his personality, that he's a guy who's
really adverse to disagreements and confrontations, but that doesn't stop the fact that what he is doing is dumb. Communication-wise, on his part, this earns an F.
Pure and simple.
As I said, I know he has a hard time dealing with disagreements, but at this point I just think he should man up.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585359If you want me to start hurtling insults I will. I do not appreciate the sarcasm. I am stricken by your apparent lack of understanding what is at issue here.
To be fair to Tavis however, while you have become rather polite and civil in this thread, you seem to not just be a customer asking for a refund, you seem to have a personality problem with James, including continuing to post insults to members of this thread on YDIS (which makes you appear to have a split personality), created a parody project, started a complaint on Tavis' forums by labelling in scam, engaged in personal attacks by finding old blogs or opinions of James and ridiculing them (which has nothing to do with the main issue at hand), use a ton of profanity, and, as Tavis mentioned in the thread, are hiding your actual identity by not identifying which customer you are and using some kind of anonymizer so people can't look up your Internet IP address. I think Tavis has been more that fair and polite, considering the way you've behaved.
I think your reaction to the problem would be akin to heaping verbal abuse on a clerk who got your order wrong, and at some point a manager would probably eject you for the reaction if you were threatening violence. If you have a problem with the lateness, why not just get your money back and call it a day. I think it's possible to both be have a legit concern and be a "troll", and it makes me feel that this is more about trying to publicly humiliate James because of his personality rather than bringing a concern about the project. It seems most of his fans are patient and compared to other projects, this is not very late, and many projects inside and outside of kickstarter are late.
I agree with several of the arguments others have brought to the table here, I do think James should address this directly. (Though I don't think he has to do it on his blog or even allow people to use the comments section to protest it). But it's very hard to view your complaints as reasonable based on past behavior, and I hope people can see that.
Quote from: JRT;585367To be fair to Tavis however, while you have become rather polite and civil in this thread, you seem to not just be a customer asking for a refund, you seem to have a personality problem with James, including continuing to post insults to members of this thread on YDIS (which makes you appear to have a split personality), created a parody project, started a complaint on Tavis' forums by labelling in scam, engaged in personal attacks by finding old blogs or opinions of James and ridiculing them (which has nothing to do with the main issue at hand), use a ton of profanity, and, as Tavis mentioned in the thread, are hiding your actual identity by not identifying which customer you are and using some kind of anonymizer so people can't look up your Internet IP address. I think Tavis has been more that fair and polite, considering the way you've behaved.
I am what I am. I have no issue with Jim the person. I have an issue with how this entire campaign was conceived and has been run. I have moderated my tone, and though I cannot live down the past tone, I do not run from what I have posted.
Furthermore, if you think Dwimmerdust is all about Jim, then you are sadly mistaken. It is about the entire OSR "movement".
QuoteI think your reaction to the problem would be akin to heaping verbal abuse on a clerk who got your order wrong, and at some point a manager would probably eject you for the reaction if you were threatening violence. If you have a problem with the lateness, why not just get your money back and call it a day. I think it's possible to both be have a legit concern and be a "troll", and it makes me feel that this is more about trying to publicly humiliate James because of his personality rather than bringing a concern about the project. It seems most of his fans are patient and compared to other projects, this is not very late, and many projects inside and outside of kickstarter are late.
Oh please, once again you blame the complainer, and not the one who fails to live up to obligations. In addition, Online is different than Offline. Nowhere have I threatened violence, and nowhere have I even implied it. I've called out the bullshit, and did so in a harsher verbal way.
Furthermore, I've never hidden behind other names. I have been I run with scissors, and briefly IRWS (when I lost my logon info at Autrich's forums).
QuoteI agree with several of the arguments others have brought to the table here, I do think James should address this directly. (Though I don't think he has to do it on his blog or even allow people to use the comments section to protest it). But it's very hard to view your complaints as reasonable based on past behavior, and I hope people can see that.
Wonderful. Nice broad brush. I see you take one sentence and ignore all the other valid points. Oh well.
As for publicly stating what is going on on his blog, he had no problem pimping, sorry, advertising, the Kickstatrer campaign on his blog. He has had no problem talking about the playtest and running Dwimmermount on his blog. Yet, when the fire starts getting hot, he clams up?
Oh well. Win some, and lose some.
IRWS
Quote from: _kent_;585355Tavis should be paying JMal for this extended opportunity to hone his merchants' politesse in safe surroundings.
Funds will be used to support online sensitivity training for the project's crass hucksters. Specifically, critics will be silenced by providing them with ample coke and whores. Leftovers will not be saved for backers.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585359Autarch LLC is running the campaign for Groganadia Games. At the end of the campaign, all funds will be turned over to Grognardia Games. Grognardia Games assumes all responsibilities for the successful completion of this campaign.
In all seriousness - because
no one should be smiling while people on the Internet are pissed off - that's well done, IRWS, thanks! If anyone were going to do a similar arrangement (which I wouldn't recommend), it'd be interesting to see whether this reassignment of responsibility would stick. I have a feeling that at best it'd be like the waiver you sign before doing extreme sports, which doesn't really waive your rights but may dissuade you from pursuing it further.
Quote from: Tavis;585378Funds will be used to support online sensitivity training for the project's crass hucksters. Specifically, critics will be silenced by providing them with ample coke and whores. Leftovers will not be saved for backers.
As a backer, I officially waive my claim to sloppy seconds. :rotfl:
Quote from: meAutarch LLC is running the campaign for Groganadia Games. At the end of the campaign, all funds will be turned over to Grognardia Games. Grognardia Games assumes all responsibilities for the successful completion of this campaign.
Quote from: Tavis;585378In all seriousness - because no one should be smiling while people on the Internet are pissed off - that's well done, IRWS, thanks! If anyone were going to do a similar arrangement (which I wouldn't recommend), it'd be interesting to see whether this reassignment of responsibility would stick. I have a feeling that at best it'd be like the waiver you sign before doing extreme sports, which doesn't really waive your rights but may dissuade you from pursuing it further.
In the end, I think this would hold up. It clearly spells out what is going on, and it clearly spells out who is doing what. It also protects you, while putting the focus on who is leading the project. I only speak for myself, but if this was clearly posted at the start, I would have not backed this project. I only backed it, because I thought Autarch was doing the whole thing. If I knew this was not the case, I would not have backed. I cannot make it any clearer than that.
And no, it is not because I do not like Jim, it is due to Jim have a track record of not being able to finish what he starts (
Petty Gods prime example).
IRWS
Tavis, you keep getting me all riled up by your PR-talk. We are no idiots.
You said, paraphrased:"JM is supported via the Kickstarter to do writing".
You conveniently forgot that, but then somebody cited you. It's just some posts upthread, check yourselves.
Now you are telling me if he used the money for living expenses, he would be stealing. So are you gonna sue him? Seems not like it.
What kind of crappy double talk is that?
I think I have made up my mind...except for one question:
Does he [JM] currently have a day job?
If no, then I am utterly right in my assumptions.
If the answer is yes, then one has to wonder why the rush to KS before the thing was more advanced.
Now I invoke secret mindreading powers again...may the three pillars and the all-seeing-eye help me...OMMM....
Tada! All is clear:
You guys at Autarch realized from past KS experiences that there is BIG money to be made in KS if you only have a loyal base of followers already!
You were analyzing the OOTS success and added one plus one and thought: who has a following and could be trusted with actually delivering anything...qed
If that was not correct, I would have to believe you actually think Dwimmermount is worhtwhile publishing or legendary. And we all know this is ridiculous.
Also, on the ODD boards, there surely still is a thread with an abandoned gaming group waiting for the return of the legendary JM to do his DMing duties...
I'd like to know, too, does James have a day job?
Quote from: Settembrini;585401You said, paraphrased:"JM is supported via the Kickstarter to do writing". You conveniently forgot that, but then somebody cited you. It's just some posts upthread, check yourselves. Now you are telling me if he used the money for living expenses, he would be stealing. So are you gonna sue him? Seems not like it. What kind of crappy double talk is that?
I think this is a confusion about semantics. When you budget for a project, you set aside some money to pay the people who are paid contributors, maybe including yourself. If you put your payment into your personal account and then use it for living expenses, or coke and whores, that's outside the scope of the budget. The problem is if you take money that's budgeted for something else and divert it to paying for your living expenses, because then a) the money isn't there for the other things it was supposed to fund, and b) you are stealing from the project. Undesirable consequences ensue.
Quote from: Settembrini;585401You guys at Autarch realized from past KS experiences that there is BIG money to be made in KS if you only have a loyal base of followers already! You were analyzing the OOTS success and added one plus one and thought: who has a following and could be trusted with actually delivering anything...qed
If that was not correct, I would have to believe you actually think Dwimmermount is worhtwhile publishing or legendary. And we all know this is ridiculous.
With no disrespect to your all-seeing eye, this explanation would have required that we keep some of that big money for ourselves to make sense. When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585381I only speak for myself, but if this was clearly posted at the start, I would have not backed this project. I only backed it, because I thought Autarch was doing the whole thing.
That's an interesting counterfactual. Upthread you wrote:
Quote from: I run with scissors;585381divorce Dwimmermount from this because for me I backed it as a bet
How would that have changed?
Quote from: 1989;585406I'd like to know, too, does James have a day job?
He might not be in the thread, but you can ask him via gmail at jmalisze, or on G+ with the same email address.
Ahh right...you GAVE ALL THE MONEY TO JM already!
So indeed, you are not motivated by greed or lust for profit. I concede my mind reading powers failed me there.
Again, I cannot parse what you said re the first point: Are you now saying he is stealing money from you?
Because you seem to defend him, it is at odds with the rest of your conveyed intent to say he is now in the process of stealing...
Or are you somehow implying there is a pre-agreed upon time he is supporting himself from the money to write the thing. But then he is late and cutting into those funds, no?
It's totally bizarre that James will not show up and give account at this point.
Quote from: 1989;585415It's totally bizarre that James will not show up and give account at this point.
That's what I tried to hint at earlier: based on previous experiences, this is just not in James' nature to confront these types of things. His natural reaction to most disagreements that would require arguments and back-and-forth I've seen is to wave his hands in the air and back off saying he doesn't want to argue. Which basically is kind of annoying given he's got strongly held opinions (and the links to his political ramblings of 2007 totally put that into perspective to me), opinions which might be wrong or not reflect the opinions and perspective of other people involved in OS gaming, AND happens to be the "voice" of the OSR through his blog, at least judging by his readership.
Quote from: Tavis;585412With no disrespect to your all-seeing eye, this explanation would have required that we keep some of that big money for ourselves to make sense.
Oh, Tavis, please, enough of the bullshit.
Dwimmermount was akin to a loss-leader. You saw a chance to piggy-back on its 'success' by putting
ACKS stats in the book and attaching Autarch's name to it, as you would from one of those "original megadungeons from the dawn of the hobby published from the fragmentary notes that survived their author."
Christ on a stick, do you think you invented marketing or something?
QuoteOriginally Posted by I run with scissors
I only speak for myself, but if this was clearly posted at the start, I would have not backed this project. I only backed it, because I thought Autarch was doing the whole thing.
Quote from: Tavis;585412That's an interesting counterfactual. Upthread you wrote:
QuoteOriginally Posted by I run with scissors
divorce Dwimmermount from this because for me I backed it as a bet
Quote from: Tavis;585412How would that have changed?
There is no gotcha here. I thought he would flake out on this, and it would be late. I backed the project as a bet, but I did so under the impression that it was your ball game. By that, you got the money, you kept the money, you managed the money, you handled the printing, you handled the procurement and shipping of all rewards, etc. In short, this was your project. This is not so hard to understand, because after all, your company's name is plastered all over the Kickstarter. In addition, no mention is made anywhere on the publicly viewable Kickstarter page, or in the comment section, or backer updates, that you were just the Middle Man.
If I had known from the start that you were the middle man, and that the entire responsibility fell on Jim, I would not have placed the bet. Why? Because Jim cannot finish any project he starts (Petty Gods, etc.).
With you in charge, the project would have been late, but there is accountability, and it would come out, whenever it was ready. With you as the middle man, and Jim in charge, it becomes what it is.
Is that any clearer?
IRWS
Quote from: Benoist;585416Which basically is kind of annoying given he's got strongly held opinions (and the links to his political ramblings of 2007 totally put that into perspective to me), opinions which might be wrong or not reflect the opinions and perspective of other people involved in OS gaming, AND happens to be the "voice" of the OSR through his blog, at least judging by his readership.
The only people I've ever seen try to make J. Maliszewski the "voice of the OSR," are those looking for a convenient target to criticize whatever version of the "OSR" is pissing them off.
If success is their proof, then Matt Finch, Stuart Marshall or Daniel Proctor have far more right to that title than Mr. Maliszewski.
And if someone reads JM's blog and thinks it representative of the thought of all "old schoolers," so fucking what? It's the internet. There's millions of mother-fuckers out there, who are going to think you and what you do are (insert nasty characterization) for no other reason than that they're bored with themselves and looking for some lulz. Anyone who's both seriously interested and too stupid to look past one opinion, isn't someone I'm too concerned about.
You're missing my point, which is that on one hand through his blog James positions himself as an OSR pundit, a face, whatever you want to call it, which, judging by his dedication to keep the blog going despite his family issues and the gigs he's had with WotC as the "guy who talks about the old stuff" on WotC's website and the like, he very consciously cultivates, and that on the other hand he doesn't want to be challenged and argue because he doesn't want the fuss, the drama, whatever that is that motivates him to do that.
But all that is peripheral to the fact that right now, that's basically part of his problem in not directly addressing the doubts people are expressing about the future of Dwimmermount which he very consciously chooses to ignore for now. I have NO idea whether he'll come through with his project. I hope he does for the fans' sake, for Autarch's sake, and for his own sake. But what's very clear is that silence and stonewalling do not work as a marketing strategy. Now you can tell me 'why should he care, he's a hobbyist' and stuff, but by Tavis's own words here this was construed as a professional product from the start, apparently. From there, there's a professional expectation to do the right thing and address the doubts one way or the other. Just putting one's head in the sand doesn't make it go away - it makes it worse. That's also very clear to me.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;585419Oh, Tavis, please, enough of the bullshit. Dwimmermount was akin to a loss-leader. You saw a chance to piggy-back on its 'success' by putting ACKS stats in the book and attaching Autarch's name to it, as you would from one of those "original megadungeons from the dawn of the hobby published from the fragmentary notes that survived their author." Christ on a stick, do you think you invented marketing or something?
For sure Autarch is a business that I'm part of; it's not like that's a secret agenda. When I'm enthusiastic about doing something, asking "is this good for Autarch" is part of the process of deciding whether I do it through Autarch or outside it; the Arneson Memorial Gameday is an example of the latter. If you have a problem imagining that the desire to make a project happen precedes the examination of how it'd impact the bottom line, you could always assume I'm not immune to my own bullshit instead of questioning my sincerity.
Quote from: Benoist;585427You're missing my point, which is that on one hand through his blog James positions himself as an OSR pundit, a face, whatever you want to call it, which, judging by his dedication to keep the blog going despite his family issues and the gigs he's had with WotC as the "guy who talks about the old stuff" on WotC's website and the like, he very consciously cultivates, and that on the other hand he doesn't want to be challenged and argue because he doesn't want the fuss, the drama, whatever that is that motivates him to do that.
So, JM doesn't want to argue...
Isn't that why we have theRPGsite? So there's always someone to argue with?
Quote from: Benoist;585427But all that is peripheral to the fact that right now, that's basically part of his problem in not directly addressing the doubts people are expressing about the future of Dwimmermount which he very consciously chooses to ignore for now. I have NO idea whether he'll come through with his project. I hope he does for the fans' sake, for Autarch's sake, and for his own sake. But what's very clear is that silence and stonewalling do not work as a marketing strategy. Now you can tell me 'why should he care, he's a hobbyist' and stuff, but by Tavis's own words here this was construed as a professional product from the start, apparently. From there, there's a professional expectation to do the right thing and address the doubts one way or the other. Just putting one's head in the sand doesn't make it go away - it makes it worse. That's also very clear to me.
I got a Dwimmermount update the other day. It contained a message from JM. Updates, apologies, that sort of thing. He and Tavis are addressing things to the backers, just fine.
Honestly, what good would talking about it on his blog do? Mr. Scissors, et al, would start pretending they're at YDIS and JM's 1,000+ followers, those both pro and anti JM, would insure that the whole thing turned into a cluster-fuck, rather quickly. JM isn't obliged to address anything on his blog, at all. I agree that he
does have a duty to keep the backers informed. For which, see project update #26.
Quote from: jasmith;585426If success is their proof, then Matt Finch, Stuart Marshall or Daniel Proctor have far more right to that title than Mr. Maliszewski.
I don't think I agree.
I like Matt Finch and Dan Proctor, on a personal level as well as a professional one. They're genuinely nice guys, easy-going and easy to get on with, and passionate about the games they're trying to popularise. But we're not the voice of the OSR. We're just editors of the three best-known retro-clones.
The OSR isn't the retro-clones. It's what people do with them---the
new things that we create now, not the re-statements of the old things the last generation created.
The voices of the OSR are people like Joe Browning and Jim Kramer, Jeff Talanian and Jon Hersberger, Steve from Dragonsfoot, Allan Grohe, and yes, Autarch and Messrs Raggi and Maliszewski. What they've got in common is putting out products that are actually new.
Of course, Matt and Dan and I have put out new products as well (we're all authors of multiple adventures), but I think not quite on the same scale. :)
As for "success"... I've never earned a bean from all this.
Quote from: _kent_;584472Fiasco, again I have to point out that you are having a one sided conversation in your own head because I don't know who you are, have no interest in finding out and am going to ignore your buzzing on my peripherals from now on. Feel free to continue your close reading of my blog though.
Does your blog delve into the oh so important difference between drawing definitions from the OED rather than freedictionary.com?
Quote from: jasmith;585431So, JM doesn't want to argue...
Isn't that why we have theRPGsite? So there's always someone to argue with?
OK. Still missing the point I see.
Quote from: jasmith;585431I got a Dwimmermount update the other day. It contained a message from JM. Updates, apologies, that sort of thing. He and Tavis are addressing things to the backers, just fine.
Honestly, what good would talking about it on his blog do? Mr. Scissors, et al, would start pretending they're at YDIS and JM's 1,000+ followers, those both pro and anti JM, would insure that the whole thing turned into a cluster-fuck, rather quickly. JM isn't obliged to address anything on his blog, at all. I agree that he does have a duty to keep the backers informed. For which, see project update #26.
We disagree. I think Tavis here has proven that you could talk about it openly and not look like you're stone-walling people who are concerned, which is totally how it looks like when people try to ask questions and you delete their comments on your blog the way James does right now.
To me, whatever the minute detail of the conversation is, with its lot of fumbles and twists and turns, Tavis is the one clearly attempting to do the right thing here: communicate, communicate, communicate. James is not out there defending Grognardia Games's baby. Autarch is. Why is that?
Quote from: P&P;585432I don't think I agree.
Oh, I wasn't being literal about that "voice" thing. Just making a point.
Quote from: P&P;585432As for "success"... I've never earned a bean from all this.
I did mean that part, but wasn't referring to pecuniary accomplishments.
Quote from: jasmith;585440I did mean that part, but wasn't referring to pecuniary accomplishments.
Mate, I'm just a fan with a plan. Don't put me on no pedestals!
Quote from: 1989;585415It's totally bizarre that James will not show up and give account at this point.
Maybe he took one look at this thread and realised there is literally nothing that he can say that would make any difference whatsoever.
Or maybe he came to the entirely sensible conclusion that he has no obligation at all to explain himself other than to the people who backed Dwimmermount, which he is apparently doing through updates.
Or maybe he's just sick of people bitching.
Just three possibilities.
Quote from: Benoist;585416That's what I tried to hint at earlier: based on previous experiences, this is just not in James' nature to confront these types of things. His natural reaction to most disagreements that would require arguments and back-and-forth I've seen is to wave his hands in the air and back off saying he doesn't want to argue. Which basically is kind of annoying given he's got strongly held opinions (and the links to his political ramblings of 2007 totally put that into perspective to me), opinions which might be wrong or not reflect the opinions and perspective of other people involved in OS gaming, AND happens to be the "voice" of the OSR through his blog, at least judging by his readership.
Why do we really need to hear from James? What does he really owe us? What more could he possibly add to this discussion? Tavis has already done a hero's job of fielding any and all questions about the Kickstarter. Late is late, apologies have been given, revised schedules issued, refunds dispensed. It's clear by now the tin-foil hat people will accept no excuses, the haters are still gonna hate, and most backers still really couldn't give a crap. What loop needs to be closed?
As a backer, I was told all the way back in June that the deadline was not going to be hit. I have been getting regular updates since early August, as well as enough peaks at notes and drafts to feel confident that this thing is going to get done.
Having bought The Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/51492/The-Dungeons-of-Castle-Blackmoor?src=s_pi), having checked out fevered reconstructions of E.G.G.'s notes for Greyhawk (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6981), and having actually read James' blog (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2012/08/never-same.html), I wasn't shocked to see a fairly skeletal key. Having lived in America all my life and grown up surrounded by advertising, I was not confused or mislead by the word "legendary" in marketing copy. Having lived in the real world, I am familiar with all sorts of plans going awry, so I was not horrified to hear about a schedule slip.
I mean, let's be real. I paid a very modest amount for a game product -- a thoroughly discretionary purchase that, at this point, is only delayed. No one lost their 401(k), the rent money, or baby's college tuition on this Kickstarter. All of Runs with Scissors' crying is over $10, if he even actually bought into the Kickstarter. For one single sawbuck, I'm not entitled to have James grovel for forgiveness. He doesn't owe me anything other than the product. Period.
Quote from: Garnfellow;585447Why do we really need to hear from James? What does he really owe us? What more could he possibly add to this discussion? Tavis has already done a hero's job of fielding any and all questions about the Kickstarter. Late is late, apologies have been given, revised schedules issued, refunds dispensed. It's clear by now the tin-foil hat people will accept no excuses, the haters are still gonna hate, and most backers still really couldn't give a crap. What loop needs to be closed?
Perhaps none. Perhaps it's just what I imagine to be the right thing to do and nobody agrees. That's fine by me. Seriously.
I do object however on the "haters" thing because I think it's all too easy that, as soon as you don't sing with the chorus and start asking questions that make people uncomfortable, you'd be labeled a hater. I think that participates to this idea that the OSR is some sort of group where you're "in" or "out", if you don't get into the groove and sing kumbaya you're not "part of it" and all that.
That's something I really don't like. I'm not a hater. I'm someone bringing up questions like others on this thread. Sure there are haters, even on this thread, but that shouldn't mean that everyone should just shut the fuck up and get along with the OSR program "because". The OSR can't have it both ways: it can't claim not to be a "movement" or particular group of individuals with a "membership card" or something, and at the same time go about peer pressure and basically brand people "haters" because they would not follow the party line. That's not working in my book.
I know that's not what you meant, or me particularly that you targeted with the "haters" thing, and don't feel like that was your message, but when enough posters add their voices to basically sing that same tune, that's really what it starts to sound like, to me, and I don't like it one bit.
Quote from: Benoist;585439OK. Still missing the point I see.
No.
Quote from: Benoist;585439We disagree. I think Tavis here has proven that you could talk about it openly and not look like you're stone-walling people who are concerned, which is totally how it looks like when people try to ask questions and you delete their comments on your blog.
If JM received civil, level-headed queries in his blog comments, then yeah, he should have at least acknowledged those. But again, JM
isaddressing the backers, so I don't see why this is still an issue.
Quote from: Benoist;585439To me, whatever the minute detail of the conversation is, with its lot of fumbles and twists and turns, Tavis is the one clearly attempting to do the right thing here: communicate, communicate, communicate. James is not out there defending his own company's baby. Autarch is. Why is that?
I suspect it's because he gets a lot of "let's crucify the OSR's Pope" bullshit, on the internet. Regardless, so JM fucked up. So he doesn't want to come here and defend himself. Why is this so all-fired disturbing? A lot of people wouldn't want to step onto this site. Especially if they feel they wouldn't get a fair shake, to begin with. If you want to use that to impugn JM's character, then that
is your business.
JM & Autarch make a mis-step and the torches & pitchforks come out. With a liberal sprinkling of good old-fashioned OSR hate. (Is there a "big fucking surprise" emoticon, up there?)
There's just no fucking mystery, here. "Inexperienced businessmen screw up and make some unwise decisions while using new funding method."
If Tavis & JM are telling us the truth, there's no reason to get alarmed. It's not the first RPG product to be late. And JM isn't the first human being to screw up. And unless and until I see evidence that JM is blowing my measly $40 on coke & whores, I'm not going to get worked up over it.
Quote from: jasmith;585456No.
I'm afraid that yes, you missed my point. Let me phrase it a third time: when you are making efforts to maintain a prominent OSR blog, that you are hired by WotC to do some old school retrospectives, assuming and presenting you as an expert on such matters, the works, that you ARE in effect a prominent face to the OSR, and that you do not want to see your views challenged, there's a problem, intellectually and ethically speaking.
Whatever assumptions or shorcuts you made to get to your own conclusions and thesis on this or that never get to be challenged, you don't let your theories open to discussion, aside from people who agree with you, and it becomes stale and artificial, and leads to all sorts of misrepresentations, like the idea that a megadungeon is "legendary" by virtue of having been created as a thought exercise on a public blog some three years ago.
That's a problem, to me. And if you're cool with it and don't see the point of having ideas challenged occasionally and whatever improvements could possibly come out of this type of process, I honestly don't know what to tell you.
Is that clear enough for you?
Quote from: jasmith;585456If JM received civil, level-headed queries in his blog comments, then yeah, he should have at least acknowledged those. But again, JM isaddressing the backers, so I don't see why this is still an issue.
Personally I'm seeing a big difference between the way Tavis chose to handle the issue, and the way James did. Don't you?
Quote from: jasmith;585456I suspect it's because he gets a lot of "let's crucify the OSR's Pope" bullshit, on the internet. Regardless, so JM fucked up. So he doesn't want to come here and defend himself. Why is this so all-fired disturbing? A lot of people wouldn't want to step onto this site. Especially if they feel they wouldn't get a fair shake, to begin with. If you want to use that to impugn JM's character, then that is your business.
JM & Autarch make a mis-step and the torches & pitchforks come out. With a liberal sprinkling of good old-fashioned OSR hate. (Is there a "big fucking surprise" emoticon, up there?)
And let's go with the "hate" bullshit now. Seriously? So asking questions and being critical is "hate" now? What the fuck?
Quote from: jasmith;585456There's just no fucking mystery, here. "Inexperienced businessmen screw up and make some unwise decisions while using new funding method."
If Tavis & JM are telling us the truth, there's no reason to get alarmed. It's not the first RPG product to be late. And JM isn't the first human being to screw up. And unless and until I see evidence that JM is blowing my measly $40 on coke & whores, I'm not going to get worked up over it.
As I said, I have no idea what will happen as far as the final product is concerned. I hope it comes through and satisfies everyone involved. What I do see is something worth talking about, because kickstarter is a big thing right now, because Dwimmermount is a project that is under scrutiny due to the funds it raised and the large readership of Grognardia, that this particular example may serve to learn lessons and not recreate the same mistakes... but if we go all "well who cares, right? All's good, why ask questions at all?" we have little chances to identify the mistakes, and how these could be avoided in the future.
So the whole "shut up and get in line" ... not for me, thank you very much.
Again, the proper thing to do would be to refund all money (not wait for people to ask for refunds), and begin the Kickstarter again once the manuscript is ready.
Quote from: Benoist;585451That's something I really don't like. I'm not a hater. I'm someone bringing up questions like others on this thread. Sure there are haters, even on this thread, but that shouldn't mean that everyone should just shut the fuck up and get along with the OSR program "because". The OSR can't have it both ways: it can't claim not to be a "movement" or particular group of individuals with a "membership card" or something, and at the same time go about peer pressure and basically brand people "haters" because they would not follow the party line. That's not working in my book.
Now, this is
exactly where I
thought you were coming from. Which is why I engaged you in the first place. I wouldn't have bothered with the Scissors guy.
"The OSR can't have it both ways:"That quote, is what I take issue with. The "OSR" isn't some monolithic entity, made of fungible people. I'm sure there are plenty of people all set to defend, whatever. Others don't bother. My defense of JM isn't based on "OSR Uber Alles.
Quote from: Benoist;585467That's a problem, to me. And if you're cool with it and don't see the point of having ideas challenged occasionally and whatever improvements could possibly come out of this type of process, I honestly don't know what to tell you.
Ideas getting challenged is a charitable way to describe what goes on in this thread. This is a crazy hate-fest and James would be insane to come in here to get abused by the one guy who's been offered a refund and refused to take it, and the many others who have no stake in the product at all and just enjoy stirring up crap.
Quote from: Benoist;585467And let's go with the "hate" bullshit now. Seriously? So asking questions and being critical is "hate" now? What the fuck?
No. I'm sure there's someone reading this thread, who'll tell you I'm just not adverse to naming names. I wasn't talking about you and would have met you head on, on that very topic, if I were.
Quote from: PatW;585474Ideas getting challenged is a charitable way to describe what goes on in this thread. This is a crazy hate-fest and James would be insane to come in here to get abused by the one guy who's been offered a refund and refused to take it, and the many others who have no stake in the product at all and just enjoy stirring up crap.
Well let's be clear about that: I for one am not asking for James to show up here and start dealing with the lions. That's not what I'm saying when I say I think he should man up and talk about this publicly. Whether he's doing it in an interview for some other OSR blog, on his own blog, on some chat somewhere or whatnot, whatever. I just think that when you compare Tavis's approach and James's, it's clear that one is far superior to the other, to me at least.
And really? A "hate fest"? What the hell is up with you guys not being able to handle disagreement? I can disagree and argue with people I really appreciate. Jasmith answer to me above, that he engaged me because he thought I'd actually be worth talking to, seems to fit my take on this. Why is it that as soon as there's some argument going on that's it! Stop the presses! It's a "HATE FEST". I mean, seriously?
Quote from: jasmith;585476No. I'm sure there's someone reading this thread, who'll tell you I'm just not adverse to naming names. I wasn't talking about you and would have met you head on, on that very topic, if I were.
OK. I took it personally. Sorry about that.
Quote from: Benoist;585477Well let's be clear about that: I for one am not asking for James to show up here and start dealing with the lions. That's not what I'm saying when I say I think he should man up and talk about this publicly. Whether he's doing it in an interview for some other OSR blog, on his own blog, on some chat somewhere or whatnot, whatever. I just think that when you compare Tavis's approach and James's, it's clear that one is far superior to the other, to me at least.
What does James owe to anybody other than his backers?
Quote from: Benoist;585478OK. I took it personally. Sorry about that.
My fault. I should have been more clear with what I was trying to communicate.
Quote from: noisms;585479What does James owe to anybody other than his backers?
I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to be known as "that guy" who doesn't give a shit.
Quote from: Benoist;585482I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to be known as "that guy" who doesn't give a shit.
Why should he give a shit, except about his backers?
Quote from: noisms;585479What does James owe to anybody other than his backers?
Nothing. On the other hand if he wants to maintain the respect of the broader community he should probably quit hiding like a little bitch.
Mind you that ship has sailed now. I can't conceive of a way he can restore his tarnished reputation. Sure the hard core fanboys will continue to drink the cool aid while eagerly waiting for the next Ares review but for the rest of us he will be hard to take seriously.
Quote from: noisms;585483Why should he give a shit, except about his backers?
Because if he doesn't, that's basically how he'll get to be known in the hobby: a guy who stonewalls people unless they gave him a paycheck. And I mean, really, you don't see how that's damaging in a hobby that functions mostly by word of mouth, especially in a circle like the OSR which is web/blog/G+ based? Really? Are you THAT naive?
Quote from: Fiasco;585485Nothing. On the other hand if he wants to maintain the respect of the broader community he should probably quit hiding like a little bitch.
Yeah, that must be it - he's terrified of all you badasses and your, er, keyboards.
QuoteMind you that ship has sailed now. I can't conceive of a way he can restore his tarnished reputation. Sure the hard core fanboys will continue to drink the cool aid while eagerly waiting for the next Ares review but for the rest of us he will be hard to take seriously.
This will be forgotten about in two weeks. The people who for whom the very existence of Grognardia is a mortal affront will go on shaking their fists from a distance, the people who read and comment on it will keep reading and commenting on it, and the rest of the world will ignore it.
Quote from: Benoist;585487Because if he doesn't, that's basically how he'll get to be known in the hobby: a guy who stonewalls people unless they gave him a paycheck. And I mean, really, you don't see how that's damaging in a hobby that functions mostly by word of mouth, especially in a circle like the OSR which is web/blog/G+ based? Really? Are you THAT naive?
Do you realise how very odd you sound?
In what sense is he "stonewalling"? If you are not a backer of Dwimmermount you have no claim, right, entitlement or grounds whatsoever to know anything about what is going on with it. That's the way these things work. Otherwise there would be no point in having the Kickstarter and it would all go on in public, wouldn't it?
Interesting.
Quote from: Benoist;585494Interesting.
Yes, in the anthropological sense, the sense of entitlement you display is rather interesting.
Quote from: Benoist;585477Well let's be clear about that: I for one am not asking for James to show up here and start dealing with the lions. That's not what I'm saying when I say I think he should man up and talk about this publicly. Whether he's doing it in an interview for some other OSR blog, on his own blog, on some chat somewhere or whatnot, whatever. I just think that when you compare Tavis's approach and James's, it's clear that one is far superior to the other, to me at least.
And really? A "hate fest"? What the hell is up with you guys not being able to handle disagreement? I can disagree and argue with people I really appreciate. Jasmith answer to me above, that he engaged me because he thought I'd actually be worth talking to, seems to fit my take on this. Why is it that as soon as there's some argument going on that's it! Stop the presses! It's a "HATE FEST". I mean, seriously?
My feeling is that Tavis has done all the useful explaining he can about the present situation and it seems like he has started going in circles. I didn't go for ACKs, but at this point it is at the top of my 'to buy' list. It doesn't seem like all this talk will do ACKs any harm, I just wonder why Tavis bothers to reply to some of the posts.
Communication to your customers or backers is a good thing. In the end I think this will do Tavis and ACKs a world of good.
I've been having a good time myself reading this thread, but like I mentioned before, I think there are several conversations going at one time, some are pretty hate-filled and seem to be repeating the same opinions over and over, so those I tend to skip.
Benoist and others are keeping this thread lively and interesting. I've also found a lot of the tangental topics interesting as well. This thread could easily be broken down into three or four independent discussions, though I don't think they would have the longevity of this one.
I'm just an interested observer here since I didn't put any money down on dwimmermount. (So far the only recent RPG material I've gone in for is the DCC line, the FGG S&W stuff and ASSH, which is more than enough to keep me busy and entertained).
I'm a backer, I read the updates. I don't know what to believe anymore.
I might have missed this, but what's the projected completion date for this legendary megadungeon?
Quote from: Sean !;585502I'm a backer, I read the updates. I don't know what to believe anymore.
Because of this thread, or more in general, Sean?
Quote from: noisms;585492If you are not a backer of Dwimmermount you have no claim, right, entitlement or grounds whatsoever to know anything about what is going on with it.
What claim, right, entitlement or grounds whatsoever to know anything about what is going on with Dwimmermount
do the backers-as-patrons have, in your mind?
How would this right to information differ if we considered them as "customers" and not small-scale philanthropists?
Do institutional patrons demand and get yet another level of transparency?
Does the hobbyist public truly rate nothing?
I don't really care about Dwimmermount at this point. I'm just looking toward emergent best practices on the next Kickstarter he or anyone else puts together.
Quote from: econobus;585506What claim, right, entitlement or grounds whatsoever to know anything about what is going on with Dwimmermount do the backers-as-patrons have, in your mind?
How would this right to information differ if we considered them as "customers" and not small-scale philanthropists?
Do institutional patrons demand and get yet another level of transparency?
Does the hobbyist public truly rate nothing?
I don't really care about Dwimmermount at this point. I'm just looking toward emergent best practices on the next Kickstarter he or anyone else puts together.
Isn't part of what they pay for access to the process of legendary Dwimmermount-creation or whatever it was? So in that sense, they are entitled.
Even if that's not the case, though, I'd say that out of courtesy, since they are promised copies of the completed product (as I understand it) they ought to receive information about when they're getting it. That's just basic human decency.
As to why anybody who isn't a backer feels as if James owes them some sort of explanation for anything at all, I'm utterly mystified.
Quote from: noisms;585508Isn't part of what they pay for access to the process of legendary Dwimmermount-creation or whatever it was? So in that sense, they are entitled.
Nah. They paid for the thrill of seeing a legendary dungeon evolve from the rough keys. Those are the "updates" they're getting.
I think people on this thread are wondering about a different type of update: where's the book and where did the money go.
I agree with you, the profit split should be reserved for the backers, if anyone.
So if you don't mind, where do you stand on those four questions?
Quote from: noisms;585508As to why anybody who isn't a backer feels as if James owes them some sort of explanation for anything at all, I'm utterly mystified.
I think at this point it's metastasized into a general referendum on KS, OSR and points beyond & between. As I said, I'm personally curious about where best communication practices are going according to different models of the KS relationship: if the backers think they're patrons, what do I owe them, what if they're "customers," and so on.
Lapsing into mystification doesn't help anyone avoid these mistakes in the future.
Quote from: Tavis;585430If you have a problem imagining that the desire to make a project happen precedes the examination of how it'd impact the bottom line, you could always assume I'm not immune to my own bullshit instead of questioning my sincerity.
Relentless marketing spin doesn't really suggest sincerity to me, which leaves me in the situation of who to believe, you, or my lying eyes.
Quote from: Benoist;585467I'm afraid that yes, you missed my point. Let me phrase it a third time: when you are making efforts to maintain a prominent OSR blog, that you are hired by WotC to do some old school retrospectives, assuming and presenting you as an expert on such matters, the works, that you ARE in effect a prominent face to the OSR, and that you do not want to see your views challenged, there's a problem, intellectually and ethically speaking.
I'm not trying to be snarky, here, though perhaps a little cheeky, but from the above, it seems JM means a lot more to you than he does to me.
I like and respect JM, but I don't see him as an "expert," or "face of the OSR." To people outside the scene, maybe, but I'm not concerned with the latter. If he doesn't want to debate his views, I really don't give a fuck. I'm adept at thinking for myself.
Is there anyone reading this thread who sees JM, so far as his "status," or "celebrity" goes, as anything more than a prominent, successful blogger? Or thinks that means anything other than that he's been doing it for a while, people like reading his blog and like (or despise) him and his work, generally?
Mind, I'm not asking what you think
others are perceiving. I want to know exactly who out there, really thinks JM is the "Pope of the OSR." Or thinks his p.o.v. is the only valid one, vis-a-vis D&D.
Quote from: Benoist;585467Whatever assumptions or shorcuts you made to get to your own conclusions and thesis on this or that never get to be challenged, you don't let your theories open to discussion, aside from people who agree with you, and it becomes stale and artificial, and leads to all sorts of misrepresentations, like the idea that a megadungeon is "legendary" by virtue of having been created as a thought exercise on a public blog some three years ago.
I never really saw JM as a "theory guy." Zak S. and -C are the only two bloggers I can think of, that really dig into "old school" rpg theory. -C is hardcore. :cool:
JM is blogging about D&D. He's not going to trap the "OSR" into some echo chamber. He's not heading the "D&D Chair" at the local university. And his "celebrity" status, is way, way, way overestimated and exaggerated.
And yeah, the marketing hype around the DWMT kickstarter was distasteful. I'm willing to give James and Tavis a pass on that, though and chalk it up to enthusiasm.
Quote from: noisms;585491Yeah, that must be it - he's terrified of all you badasses and your, er, keyboards.
This will be forgotten about in two weeks. The people who for whom the very existence of Grognardia is a mortal affront will go on shaking their fists from a distance, the people who read and comment on it will keep reading and commenting on it, and the rest of the world will ignore it.
Lacking evidence to the contrary you seem to belong to the 'fanboy class'. That is cool, James can do no wrong and I won't waste time trying to change your mind.
For the those with less emotion investment in Grognardia James has lost a fair whack of credibility. As I said up thread, I certainly wasn't a James hater but I didn't read his blog either. I discovered the Dwimmermount kickstarter too late or likely I would have invested largely because it would have been a simple way to get the ACKS hardcover.
As it turns out I'm really glad I missed out. I ended up getting the ACKS PDF and while I've used some ideas from it I can't see myself running an ACKS campaign as its not quite what I'm looking for in my D&D.
However, I do have respect for Tavis and the professionalism and quality of Autarch's product. I also have no issue with them trying to make a buck or broaden the base of their game. I don't have an issue with them seeing an opportunity with Dwimmermount. I also have no issue with how they are handling the issue. Yes some mistakes were made with communication and how the project was presented on kickstarter but since then their behaviour has been exemplary despite a lot of hostility. Hostility that can to a large part be attributed to James and his refusal to communicate or even take much responsibility for what has gone on.
I wouldn't touch anything associated with James M with a barge pole. As a wanna be professional in this hobby he is finished. I can't imagine any RPG company with any regard for their reputation would deal with him. I'm sure Deimmermount will eventually see the light of day. I'm equally sure that it will be a disappointment. James M's ambition has outweighed both his drive and talent in this project.
Quote from: econobus;585512So if you don't mind, where do you stand on those four questions?
You mean these?
QuoteWhat claim, right, entitlement or grounds whatsoever to know anything about what is going on with Dwimmermount do the backers-as-patrons have, in your mind?
How would this right to information differ if we considered them as "customers" and not small-scale philanthropists?
Do institutional patrons demand and get yet another level of transparency?
Does the hobbyist public truly rate nothing?
1) I answered that one in my previous post, I think.
2) If they were customers the entitlement for courtesy/decency would be stronger; they would also be contractually entitled to the actual product, and could sue for damages if it was not provided. It's a grey area as to whether they would be contractually entitled to information on delays and release dates; I'm not sure if that is implied into consumer contracts in the US by statute. Nor am I sure what the Kickstarter terms and conditions are, or what the wording of the agreement with donors was.
3) Again, it depends on the terms of whatever contract exists, and whether terms obliging transparency are implied by statute in the US into such contracts. I honestly don't know.
4) "The hobbyist public" does not exist: there are only individuals who play games.
Quote from: Fiasco;585533Lacking evidence to the contrary you seem to belong to the 'fanboy class'. That is cool, James can do no wrong and I won't waste time trying to change your mind.
Nope, I haven't read his blog in ages and don't really associate with him at all. I prefer to think of myself as belonging to that class of person called "normal and reasonable".
Quote from: Benoist;585451I know that's not what you meant, or me particularly that you targeted with the "haters" thing, and don't feel like that was your message, but when enough posters add their voices to basically sing that same tune, that's really what it starts to sound like, to me, and I don't like it one bit.
I definitely don't put you in the haters category, and believe your questions are genuine. But there are certainly some posters here who are not on some noble quest for higher enlightenment; they are just looking to take cheap shots and are hoping to goad a response out of Tavis or James.
That's not a conversation, and participating in such as shitstorm is not advancing anyone's cause. A lot of this thread, in fact, is a pretty compelling argument for creative types not to interact with fans on the internet -- even if it is entertaining for the rest of us.
To get back to this question of what does James or Autarch owe us, in lieu of a product? As a backer, I'd say nothing they haven't already given me: good, timely updates until the product ships. That's all I'm looking for, and frankly that's all I deserve. If the project keeps slipping, my patience will eventually run out -- but personally I want to let this play out before peeing my pants.
People often confuse being a stakeholder with being a shareholder. If I contribute $10 to my local Public Radio Station, I'm a stakeholder and bully for me. But a lot of people mistake that relationship as being a shareholder. They think that because money exchanged hands, now suddenly they own the station and are entitled to special input on programing or operating decisions. "They want to move opera from Saturday afternoon, where it has always been? BULLSHIT! I'm calling the station right now to complain."
I am a stakeholder of Autarch's Dwimmermount Kickstarter, but that's it. I'm entitled to updates and a final product. I am not a shareholder. I am not entitled to see Tavis's profit and loss statements, IRS filings, board minutes, internal emails, colorectal exam results (but I hope you got good news, man!), etc. Again, we are talking about an RPG book and not a hedge fund.
Really, all answers that were needed were provided by Tavis in the first few pages of this thread. Although there have been interesting digressions since there, the questions are becoming more and more bullshit and entitled as this things go on.
Quote from: jasmith;585531I'm not trying to be snarky, here, though perhaps a little cheeky, but from the above, it seems JM means a lot more to you, than he does to me.
I think he means a lot more to the OSR than he does to me.
Quote from: jasmith;585531I like and respect JM, but I don't see him as an "expert," or "face of the OSR." To people outside the scene, maybe, but I'm not concerned with the latter.
Well WotC does, apparently. And that's cause for discussion and debate, IMO.
Quote from: jasmith;585531If he doesn't want to debate his views, I really don't give a fuck. I'm adept at thinking for myself.
I do care,
because I am adept at thinking for myself and don't like to witness the kool aid distribution. I care to discuss ideas surrounding D&D, and I don't want to see the kids believe old D&D is a certain way because some dude had some erroneous idea that could have been challenged by his peers if he had not been so adverse to argument and quit when people disagreed, and then sold his version of the facts to WotC which itself then assumed it was representative of the whole, however wrong and distorted it in fact may be.
I do care about that, because I care about my hobby. I care about the games, I care about the people, I care about the craft and basically want to see it survive.
Now you don't have to give a shit, I'm not forcing you to, indeed you can just walk right out the door of the RPG Site and never look back, not caring one bit, and I'm fine with that, man. But that doesn't make my caring wrong, let's be clear about that.
Quote from: jasmith;585531Is there anyone reading this thread who sees JM, so far as his "status," or "celebrity" goes, as anything more than a prominent, successful blogger? Or thinks that means anything other than that he's been doing it for a while, people like reading his blog and like (or despise) him and his work, generally?
Mind, I'm not asking what you think others are perceiving. I want to know exactly who out there, really thinks JM is the "Pope of the OSR." Or thinks his p.o.v. is the only valid one, vis-a-vis D&D.
I'd say that's the general perception, but indeed don't take my word on it.
Seriously.
I'm just one guy who likes the games in the crowd, here.
Quote from: TristramEvans;585192If you did, then you wouldn't have asked that question. It is the truth, but despite that no one has yet successfully argued it past the Supreme Court. If the IRS wants to f--- you, they will. The point is, they don't care about the chump change that the majority of Americans make in income every year. There's a distinct difference between enforceable laws, and the byzantine legal system.
I'd really rather this thread doesn't veer off into an off-topic discussion of "freeman on the land" tax rebellion, or the rebuttal thereof. Let's try to stick to the RPG-related subjects relevant to this thread, ok?
RPGPundit
Quote from: noisms;585483Why should he give a shit, except about his backers?
Well it is plainly obvious he does not care about the backers either. None of his "backer only" communications ever mentioned who the kickstarter was structured. That is my issue. In addition, even when sending email under my real name, no reply. And yes, I am much nicer in private email.
IRWS
Quote from: noisms;585541You mean these?
Yeah, those. Thanks. Trying some tricky formatting to avoid sending us all blind.
1) I answered that one in my previous post, I think.
Sounds fair. So just to rephrase, backers deserve to know how the project they commissioned is going behind the scenes. I think we're all in agreement there.
2) If they were customers the entitlement for courtesy/decency would be stronger; they would also be contractually entitled to the actual product, and could sue for damages if it was not provided. It's a grey area as to whether they would be contractually entitled to information on delays and release dates; I'm not sure if that is implied into consumer contracts in the US by statute. It looks like delay must be communicated because it effectively voids the delivery contract. Customers (as opposed to patrons or fellow fans) then have the right to opt out immediately. Naturally it's in the vendor's interest to keep that sale, so explanations, excuses, etc. are useful here.
3) Again, it depends on the terms of whatever contract exists, and whether terms obliging transparency are implied by statute in the US into such contracts. I honestly don't know.
Fair enough. "Institutional" is a bogey word in any context, but here I meant the difference between an individual donating money to what amounts to a local arts council (the backer-as-patron) and a grant-writing organisation approving a proposal. Obviously every foundation is different, but I was curious whether you might see the KS "patron" as being fundamentally different in what he can expect.
4) "The hobbyist public" does not exist: there are only individuals who play games.
Sorry. I meant to say, "those individuals who play games posting to this monster of a thread, you know, the people in the 'hobby.'"
But I take your point. Nobody owes the peanut gallery anything.
Quote from: noisms;585491This will be forgotten about in two weeks. The people who for whom the very existence of Grognardia is a mortal affront will go on shaking their fists from a distance, the people who read and comment on it will keep reading and commenting on it, and the rest of the world will ignore it.
Well it has been going on for one month, and so far all I have learned:
1. Despite Autarch's name all over the kickstarter, they were just the middle man.
2. Jim got all the money.
3. No checks and balances in place to make sure the money is used for the project.
4. Jim is unable, or unwilling, to answer any question public or private.
5. You are a hater if you dare to question anything.
IRWS
Quote from: Endless Flight;585504I might have missed this, but what's the projected completion date for this legendary megadungeon?
From Update #24
QuoteEdward Hamilton on September 9
Does the statement "If editing, development, and layout on the earlier chapters can proceed in parallel with the drafting of the later ones, the PDF might still reach you in the fall of 2013. Let's call this the optimistic projection" contain an error?
It sounds more like "fall of 2013" should be the pessimistic scenario, not the optimistic one, based on the explanation that follows. Hopefully that's a typo, and it should read "spring of 2013", or maybe "fall of 2012"!
QuoteCreator Autarch on September 9
Thanks for all the comments. Sometimes your tour bus breaks down and the opening act cancels and your guitar is broken. It's then good to hear "hey your roadie is OD'ing in the bathroom" because you want to stay on top of what's going wrong; it's also good to be reminded that at the end of the day, playing rock & roll is what you wanted to do when you grew up.
@Joe, the post-weekly update rate of progress works out to 3,000 words per week. A projection based on that would be reasonable, and would predict that the manuscript would be done on 1/27/13, so that the PDF would arrive in the winter of 2013 and the books and physical rewards would arrive in the early spring.
@Edward, yes the optimistic projection is fall of 2013! Sorry about that.
Fall 2013 is optimistic for the PDF.
IRWS
Didn't that whole "pope of the old school" thing get started because JM said something along the lines of "I'm not the pope of the OSR..."? I seem to remember something like that. If so, that turned out to be a beautiful bit of "reverse PR." :lol:
I don't think JM owes a damn thing to anyone who is not a backer of his kickstarter. Nevertheless, I think he should care about the perceptions of non-backers. He may not owe them anything, but they're potentially future backers, readers of his blog, et cetera. And like it or not, fairly or unfairly, the issue of the Dwimmermount kickstarter has become a public one.
Quote from: noisms;585508Isn't part of what they pay for access to the process of legendary Dwimmermount-creation or whatever it was? So in that sense, they are entitled.
Even if that's not the case, though, I'd say that out of courtesy, since they are promised copies of the completed product (as I understand it) they ought to receive information about when they're getting it. That's just basic human decency.
As to why anybody who isn't a backer feels as if James owes them some sort of explanation for anything at all, I'm utterly mystified.
I am a backer, at the Beholder level. The explanation we were owed was the following:
1. Autarch was not in charge of the project, they were only the middle man.
2. The funds were not staying with Autarch, but being turned over to Jim.
The kickstarter was set up under false pretenses, and the state of the manuscript, let alone who was responsible for what, was never disclosed, and if was only disclosed when questions were being asked.
Furthermore, since the project is Jim's, and he has the money, he should either answer questions publicly, or privately if directed to him.
As a backer, I should have known the Kickstarter was set up this way.
Late is late. My issue is with the intentional, or unintentional dishonesty of how the Kickstarter was set up and is being run post disbursement of all fund to Jim.
It is not that complicated.
IRWS
I have no particular confidence in JM; but I do think that Autarch are honest brokers who will be doing whatever they can to see that this product is ultimately released in a way that people are satisfied, or if that's absolutely impossible, will take responsibility for it.
On the other hand, this whole thing is quite the object lesson. I've never done a Kickstarter project yet. But if I ever did, I would be damn sure that I wouldn't START the KS until I already had a completely finished manuscript. One way or the other, I suspect that JM is going to have his "reputation" as the would-be "leader" of the OSR seriously tarnished from all this.
Meanwhile, Arrows of Indra will very shortly be revealing its cover image and setting its release date!
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;585547Well WotC does, apparently. And that's cause for discussion and debate, IMO.
Do you think there's a particular reason WotC chose JM, other than, strictly speaking, his credentials? As in an ideological reason.
Quote from: Benoist;585547I do care, because I am adept at thinking for myself and don't like to witness the kool aid distribution. I care to discuss ideas surrounding D&D, and I don't want to see the kids believe old D&D is a certain way because some dude had the idea that could have been challenged by his peers if he weren't so adverse to argument and quits when people disagree, and then sold his version of the facts to WotC which itself then assumed it was representative of the whole, however wrong and distorted it in fact may be.
So, is it that you don't feel your fellows can think for themselves, or merely that they may only be exposed to JM's viewpoint?
And, is it the idea of a singular viewpoint generally, and/or are there specific features of JM's take on D&D play that you take issue with? If the latter, what are they?
Quote from: Garnfellow;585545I am a stakeholder of Autarch's Dwimmermount Kickstarter, but that's it. I'm entitled to updates and a final product. I am not a shareholder. I am not entitled to see Tavis's profit and loss statements, IRS filings, board minutes, internal emails, colorectal exam results (but I hope you got good news, man!), etc. Again, we are talking about an RPG book and not a hedge fund.
Really, all answers that were needed were provided by Tavis in the first few pages of this thread. Although there have been interesting digressions since there, the questions are becoming more and more bullshit and entitled as this things go on.
So you are not entitled to know that the Kickstarter was not set up the way it publicly looked? You are not at all a little surprised to learn that Autarch was simply the middle man?
Seriously, if the simple fact that Autarch was only the middle man, and that they were only running and collecting the funds for Jim. Communication is easy, or not easy, but the appearance of something shady has creeped in.
No one is asking for IRS or any of the other over the top nonsense you wrote. All I am asking is why was not it disclosed that that Autarch was not in charge, and was simply the middle man?
If I knew this, I would have never kicked in my $40 for the project. I would never contribute to a kickstarter were there was a middle party involved.
IRWS
Quote from: RPGPundit;585575On the other hand, this whole thing is quite the object lesson. I've never done a Kickstarter project yet. But if I ever did, I would be damn sure that I wouldn't START the KS until I already had a completely finished manuscript. One way or the other, I suspect that JM is going to have his "reputation" as the would-be "leader" of the OSR seriously tarnished from all this.
Honest question: where do you come down on a middle man in the Kickstarter, as is the case with Autarch being the middleman for Jim? Not trying to be a dick, I am honestly curious.
IRWS
Quote from: RPGPundit;585575I've never done a Kickstarter project yet. But if I ever did, I would be damn sure that I wouldn't START the KS until I already had a completely finished manuscript.
That would be my preference, too. Alternatively, if I didn't intend to start serious work on the project unless funding targets were realized, I'd make damn sure the kickstarter made that crystal clear, up-front.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585579So you are not entitled to know that the Kickstarter was not set up the way it publicly looked? You are not at all a little surprised to learn that Autarch was simply the middle man?
I know you're really, really trying to ride this little "third party" hobby-horse to victory, since it seems like the only point you have left, but I never saw Autarch as performing much more than this. And frankly, I'm not sure how you managed to read so much more in their role, or why you think because of that there is some kind of impropriety here. On February 14, 2012 James wrote (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2012/02/dwimmermount-on-horizon.html):
Quotethe good folks at Autarch, who produced the excellent Adventurer, Conqueror, King, have kindly offered to assist me in crowdfunding Dwimmermount through Kickstarter and, later, distributing the hardcover book that results, should the project be successfully funded.
Where is the big switcheroo here?
I could not give a shit what the Autarch org chart looks like. I do not need to see the bank routing numbers.
QuoteIf I knew this, I would have never kicked in my $40 for the project. I would never contribute to a kickstarter were there was a middle party involved.
Why, what's the difference? Besides, you've already claimed you joined the Kickstarter in bad faith, hoping that something would go wrong. There's something shady here, for sure, but it's on your end.
Quote from: Garnfellow;585589I know you're really, really trying to ride this little "third party" hobby-horse to victory, since it seems like the only point you have left, but I never saw Autarch as performing much more than this. And frankly, I'm not sure how you managed to read so much more in their role, or why you think because of that there is some kind of impropriety here. On February 14, 2012 James wrote (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2012/02/dwimmermount-on-horizon.html):
Where is the big switcheroo here?
Really you are going to act as if this proves your point? Honestly, I do not know how to talk with a person who chooses to not see the issue with what is going on. For all intents and purposes this was a Autarch dance. The branding, the statements and the like, set up the appearance that they were in charge. Then you find out, that they simply collected the money, and then gave it all Jim. Why? Then you find out that the contract only called for this. Then why is their branding all over the thing? Why is it not clearly spelled out that this is the case? Even Tavis himself admits it should have been clearer.
QuoteI could not give a shit what the Autarch org chart looks like. I do not need to see the bank routing numbers.
Cute. Deflect. Cool, use gross generalizations to deflect that this Kickstarter was not set up in the way that by _all_ public appearances it came across as. I apologize that I find this disingenuous.
QuoteWhy, what's the difference? Besides, you've already claimed you joined the Kickstarter in bad faith, hoping that something would go wrong. There's something shady here, for sure, but it's on your end.
No I joined the Kickstarter on a bet, a bet that it would not come out on time. I was more inclined to do this, because from _all_ public appearances it seemed as if it was Autarch's show, and was running the whole thing. If I knew it was Jim's show I would have bowed out. He has no proven track record to carry out anything from start to finish.
As for shady, please. I have not taken money, given it to a third party, and not delivered on my promises. This tact of putting the blame on those who are asking questions is getting tiresome, and clearly shows _your_ lack of good faith.
IRWS
Quote from: jasmith;585578Do you think there's a particular reason WotC chose JM, other than, strictly speaking, his credentials? As in an ideological reason.
No, I don't think there's an ideological reason involved. I think they perceive Grognardia as the most popular OSR blog out there, I think guys like Mike Mearls et al are reading it occasionally, and they thought he'd be the guy to write a "retrospective" type column for the website.
Quote from: jasmith;585531So, is it that you don't feel your fellows can think for themselves, or merely that they may only be exposed to JM's viewpoint?
I think there are gamers who have no idea what OS D&D even plays like who read James's blog. People who would have started with 3rd ed D&D for instance, got tired of the rules bloat, then tired of 4th ed's brand of "streamlined game play", and are now investigating older editions of the game. I think some of these people will not be able to tell the difference and think critically because they have no frame of reference. See also the WotC guys, who have frames of reference so distorted I wonder if they've ever actually played the game effectively at this point.
Quote from: jasmith;585531And, is it the idea of a singular viewpoint generally, and/or are there specific features of JM's take on D&D play that you take issue with? If the latter, what are they?
Well an example coming to mind is the idea that Dwimmermount represents an accurate image of the likes of Greyhawk and Blackmoor.
Castle Greyhawk and Blackmoor are settings that developed organically, through the act of play, and were not originally written as "thought exercises" as Dwimmermount was presented on the blog. This gives a wrong impression of where a "legendary" mega-dungeon actually comes from, how it comes into being, why and how it plays the way it does. The "legendary" moniker is just the cherry on the top of the cake, the top of the iceberg, in that sense.
But that's not a singular issue or something I really took a specific strong dislike with, really. It's more of a general feeling. What came to mind here is just relevant because of the thread and the subject of the conversation itself.
Quote from: Benoist;585595Well an example coming to mind is the idea that Dwimmermount represents an accurate image of the likes of Greyhawk and Blackmoor.
Castle Greyhawk and Blackmoor are settings that developed organically, through the act of play, and were not originally written as "thought exercises" as Dwimmermount was presented on the blog. This is gives a wrong impression of where a "legendary" mega-dungeon actually comes from, how it comes into being, why and how it plays the way it does.
1. Who do you think will be fooled into thinking all megadungeons come from people deciding to run campaigns after publishing their gaming thoughts on blogs?
2. What are the possible effects of this brutally distorted view of history on the populace at large?
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;585571Nevertheless, I think he should care about the perceptions of non-backers. He may not owe them anything, but they're potentially future backers, readers of his blog, et cetera. And like it or not, fairly or unfairly, the issue of the Dwimmermount kickstarter has become a public one.
They are also potentially future backers of
other RPG kickstarter projects as well. I don't have dog in this hunt, but I will tell you that reading this thread has given me pause about using Kickstarter in the future unless things are spelled out a little bit more clearly at the outset.
First post, by the way. :)
Quote from: Benoist;585595See also the WotC guys, who have frames of reference so distorted I wonder if they've ever actually played the game effectively at this point.
I hear where you're coming from, and typically blame the structural weirdness of lunchtime games, the incestuous relationship with organized play, and the pressure (current or in the course of reaching the point where you'd get hired) to spend your fantasy time writing instead of gaming. Nevertheless one of the reasons I am a Mike Mearls fan is that his session reports at the OD&D boards (http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=campaignstories&action=display&thread=543) and the Tower of Gygax game I watched him run were much like the way I see people playing at GaryCon or NTRPG. The one I saw in person was maybe a little cinematic for my taste, but it's generally a good idea to bust out action set-pieces in a convention setting and the Tower of Gygax was a kind of meat-grinder old-school deathtrap that the OSR doesn't usually tend to celebrate (DCCRPG being the notable exception).
Quote from: I run with scissors;585564From Update #24
Fall 2013 is optimistic for the PDF.
IRWS
So 2014 for a physical product.
Yeah, this would definitely be a good time to refund all money and start the Kickstarter once the manuscript is ready to go to print.
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/think_logically.png) (http://xkcd.com/1112/)
Quote from: 1989;585618So 2014 for a physical product.
Yeah, this would definitely be a good time to refund all money and start the Kickstarter once the manuscript is ready to go to print.
Shouldn't this be decided by a consensus of the actual individuals involved, rather than an arbitrary decision made by third parties not involved.
I think I'd like to see if there are really other complaints outside of IRWS. If you have 1,000 backers and only, say 5, want their money back, why decide arbitrarily to cancel it?
Quote from: Zak S;5856001. Who do you think will be fooled into thinking all megadungeons come from people deciding to run campaigns after publishing their gaming thoughts on blogs?
2. What are the possible effects of this brutally distorted view of history on the populace at large?
I know that you're asking Benoist, but I couldn't resist.
1. Are you asking for names? Because I thought we effectively called detente on OSR-on-OSR hate a couple of page back.
(http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb413/bigdaddy_97201/Rimshot.jpg)
(thank you folks, thank you...please remember to tip your server!)
But in seriousness, do you honestly think that there aren't going to be people buying Dwimmermount to use as an example/learning tool on megadungeon design because it will be their first practical, hands-on experience with one, out of an expectation of old-school authenticity with which they are otherwise unfamiliar? Your use of absolutes in the question is disingenuous.
2. That fewer megadungeons are homebrewed by DMs, who get frustrated with putting together the scope of something like that; the MD that are made are ran less effectively; and the players don't get the same sense of wonder out of a less organic and personal experience. So basically, just the quality of the experience for the inexperienced.
Quote from: JRT;585629Shouldn't this be decided by a consensus of the actual individuals involved, rather than an arbitrary decision made by third parties not involved.
I think I'd like to see if there are really other complaints outside of IRWS. If you have 1,000 backers and only, say 5, want their money back, why decide arbitrarily to cancel it?
Yup. I'm in for $66.00 and can easily afford to wait for my rewards so long as they materialize in the end. I would only start getting grumpy if it were announced, say 6 months from now that the project isn't going to get done or that no print products will be distributed.
If I get my rewards, late or not, then I will be satisfied.
Quote from: EOTB;585631I know that you're asking Benoist, but I couldn't resist.
1. Are you asking for names? Because I thought we effectively called detente on OSR-on-OSR hate a couple of page back.
(http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb413/bigdaddy_97201/Rimshot.jpg)
(thank you folks, thank you...please remember to tip your server!)
But in seriousness, do you honestly think that there aren't going to be people buying Dwimmermount to use as an example/learning tool on megadungeon design because it will be their first practical, hands-on experience with one, out of an expectation of old-school authenticity with which they are otherwise unfamiliar? Your use of absolutes in the question is disingenuous.
2. That fewer megadungeons are homebrewed by DMs, who get frustrated with putting together the scope of something like that; the MD that are made are ran less effectively; and the players don't get the same sense of wonder out of a less organic and personal experience. So basically, just the quality of the experience for the inexperienced.
I'm not really clear here on what you're saying:
Isn't that a danger with
any module no matter what the pedigree? That people will use the module instead of writing their own stuff?
I thought BP's point was this would create a distorted picture in someone's mind about what Blackmoor and Greyhawk and other old dungeons were like somehow.
Quote from: EOTB;585631I know that you're asking Benoist, but I couldn't resist.
I know you're answering Zak, but...
Quote from: EOTB;585631But in seriousness, do you honestly think that there aren't going to be people buying Dwimmermount to use as an example/learning tool on megadungeon design because it will be their first practical, hands-on experience with one, out of an expectation of old-school authenticity with which they are otherwise unfamiliar? Your use of absolutes in the question is disingenuous.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that JM's Dwimmermount is the be all and end all of mega-dungeon design. It's like you expect people to buy into Autarch's hype. :)
I expect most people who purchase DWM are likely to purchase Stonehell, Barrowmaze, ASE, Castle of the Mad Archmage, etc. Not necessarily all of those. Some will no doubt use DWM as an example/learning tool, but if they've really got the desire to DM, most are going to start doing their own thing. Personally, I chipped into the ks because I like to collect D&D stuff and wanted something else to read in the loo.
Quote from: EOTB;5856312. That fewer megadungeons are homebrewed by DMs, who get frustrated with putting together the scope of something like that; the MD that are made are ran less effectively; and the players don't get the same sense of wonder out of a less organic and personal experience. So basically, just the quality of the experience for the inexperienced.
There's people already running other folks MD's, campaign worlds, adventures, etc. Some don't have the time or inclination to make their own. Those that do, will.
Ever has it been thus. At least since 1980, or so.
I keep saying I'm going to run Greyhawk, just for the experience, but I end up doing my own thing, every damn time. The only way for me to really scratch my DMing itch, is to do everything from Scratch. I swipe ideas, here and there, though.
I think it highly unlikely that anyone who knows about Grognardia & DWM, isn't going to have some awareness of the wider Old School environment. And anyone buying DWM, is most likely reading several os blogs, forums like this one, etc.
I really don't get all this "James Maliszewski is corrupting our hobby's youth," thing.
Is Black Blade's upcoming imprint of Joe Bloch's
Castle of the Mad Archmage cool, or not? I'm still not clear as to whether this is a
JM Bad, or
Published MD Bad, thing.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;585634Yup. I'm in for $66.00 and can easily afford to wait for my rewards so long as they materialize in the end. I would only start getting grumpy if it were announced, say 6 months from now that the project isn't going to get done or that no print products will be distributed.
If I get my rewards, late or not, then I will be satisfied.
Yeah, same boat for me (only I am in for $60.00). As long as I keep getting my progress reports, I am fine waiting it out.
Quote from: Zak S;585635I'm not really clear here on what you're saying:
Isn't that a danger with any module no matter what the pedigree? That people will use the module instead of writing their own stuff?
I thought BP's point was this would create a distorted picture in someone's mind about what Blackmoor and Greyhawk and other old dungeons were like somehow.
Practical experience with megadungeons is, imo, very limited in comparison with writing an adventure. So whereas very few purchasers of a given OSR module will be consciously or unconsciously buying it to use as a template, I suspect that is not true of Dwimmermount. The concern expressed was that, as a "thought-exercise" Dwimmermount will, due to it's method of origination, lack that certain je ne se quoi that elevates a dungeon from cranked out rafts of graph paper, to legendary - and thus be a non-optimal 1st example (if applicable) to its form.
But really I should let Benoist flesh out that point. While I couldn't resist jumping in, it was his thought and I don't want to speak for him. The above is just what it meant to me.
Quote from: EOTB;585647Practical experience with megadungeons is, imo, very limited in comparison with writing an adventure. So whereas very few purchasers of a given OSR module will be consciously or unconsciously buying it to use as a template, I suspect that is not true of Dwimmermount. The concern expressed was that, as a "thought-exercise" Dwimmermount will, due to it's method of origination, lack that certain je ne se quoi that elevates a dungeon from cranked out rafts of graph paper, to legendary - and thus be a non-optimal 1st example (if applicable) to its form.
But really I should let Benoist flesh out that point. While I couldn't resist jumping in, it was his thought and I don't want to speak for him. The above is just what it meant to me.
It seems like you at least (if not BP) are edging around saying the problem with Dwimmer is that you think, if published, it will be:
A-The most prominent recent example of the form,
and
B-Not that good
In which case, is his major crime here being popular? I mean, eliminate problem A and problem B is like so what, right? Something nobody reads being not that good is no big deal
Quote from: EOTB;585647The concern expressed was that, as a "thought-exercise" Dwimmermount will, due to it's method of origination, lack that certain je ne se quoi that elevates a dungeon from cranked out rafts of graph paper, to legendary - and thus be a non-optimal 1st example (if applicable) to its form.
Not to keep harping, but this was another question I had.
Dwimmermount was a "thought exercise" inasmuch as JM set about to create an os megadungeon, based upon the instructions in the LBB's. He meant it to be used in actual play and did run it in his home campaign, shortly after creating the first few levels.
So... what's the problem with the method of origination? If I were running OD&D, I might set about it in the same way. Going back to the original material, to see what I might discover, thereby.
I agree that DWM doesn't qualify as "legendary," and has a very short playing history. But again, what's the big deal with the "thought exercise"? Do you find the LBB's to be lacking, in this regard?
Quote from: Zak S;585650In which case, is his major crime here being popular?
It's not. And (A) and (B) are not what I meant with this. Your questions, particularly (2), deserve a full answer I'm unable to give right this minute, because I'm not at home right now taking care of other things, and because I'm typing this from my cellphone, which is a pain in the ass to me, but I'll get back to it tomorrow some time. Hang on.
Quote from: jasmith;585643I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that JM's Dwimmermount is the be all and end all of mega-dungeon design. It's like you expect people to buy into Autarch's hype. :)
Combined with targeted advertising, it seems to have been effective. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?620479-Does-anyone-know-about-this-Dwimmermount-thing) :)
Quote from: some rpg forum that is only tangentially familiar with old school stuffDoes anyone know about this Dwimmermount thing?
I keep getting banner ads for this kickstarter. I read a bit about the page, and apparently the dude is some kind of local celebrity on another site, who ran some epic megadungeon campaign, and now he's codifying it. It seems there have been a fair number of large donations, unless I've misunderstood the math. Is the guy known to be a good writer? Is there any indication this is a thing worth donating to?
I guess I'm kind of asking for reviews of whatever it is he's posted on the site where he hangs out, because I'm kind of interested but also kind of leary.
I agree with your overall assessment that megadungeon DMs are born in greater proportion than they are made.
Quote from: jasmith;585643I think it highly unlikely that anyone who knows about Grognardia & DWM, isn't going to have some awareness of the wider Old School environment. And anyone buying DWM, is most likely reading several os blogs, forums like this one, etc.
I really don't get all this "James Maliszewski is corrupting our hobby's youth," thing.
I really think that the amount of people who do both blogs and forums is a heavy minority. I think it's pretty much one of the other. As anecdotal evidence, have Zac post a PDf of the printout of all his forum posts combined, and then one of his blog posts - let alone all his blog comments.
(not picking on you Zac, you're just a handy example).
Quote from: jasmith;585643Is Black Blade's upcoming imprint of Joe Bloch's Castle of the Mad Archmage cool, or not? I'm still not clear as to whether this is a JM Bad, or Published MD Bad, thing.
I think CotMA is cool. Of the PDFs of both that I have seen, I am more impressed with CotMA. I think the bona fides of the author are on display and have been for years.
It's not "JM Bad". Why are people who think he is overrated always reduced to that by his friends or fans? I haven't concentrated on any personal aspects of him I find unappealing. Shit, Gary Gygax is/was relentlessly criticized by some people within the old-school community and nobody accused them of OSR-on-OSR hate. Why is Jmal or any other pro designer/"public figure" to be treated differently?
That's part of being pro.
Quote from: EOTB;585671I really think that the amount of people who do both blogs and forums is a heavy minority. I think it's pretty much one of the other. As anecdotal evidence, have Zac post a PDf of the printout of all his forum posts combined, and then one of his blog posts - let alone all his blog comments.
(not picking on you Zac, you're just a handy example).
Well it is a poor example and would provide evidence
against your point.
Anyway, people who read things on forums far outweigh people who comment.
But anyway none of that is really the important idea here:
You're saying it's ok to decide a lot of personal stuff about people you don't know (not about their work--about
them ) because they went pro. If that's what you're into that's what you're into. You are entitled to your hobby.
Quote from: Zak S;585650It seems like you at least (if not BP) are edging around saying the problem with Dwimmer is that you think, if published, it will be:
A-The most prominent recent example of the form,
and
B-Not that good
In which case, is his major crime here being popular? I mean, eliminate problem A and problem B is like so what, right? Something nobody reads being not that good is no big deal
Zak, what are you trying to drill down to? You open up this recent salvo in post 867 essentially coming off like people are idiots for taking the position you are commenting on, and now you're coming back around from a different direction using the methodology of a $10 shrink. If you've got something to say, say it. You get two posts to complete a Socratic method exercise before I tire of it.
Quote from: EOTB;585674Zak, what are you trying to drill down to? You open up this recent salvo in post 867 essentially coming off like people are idiots for taking the position you are commenting on, and now you're coming back around from a different direction using the methodology of a $10 shrink. If you've got something to say, say it. You get two posts to complete a Socratic method exercise before I tire of it.
I'm sorry if that's how it comes across. I don't have a secret plan, I just honestly don't know what's underlying this and am trying to ask questions to figure it out.
Maybe it's annoying--this is the only way I know to figure out things I don't understand.
Like: I asked a question because I am curious what the answer is. I don't know how much more plainly I can put it.
As for my "salvo" I don't even remember what we were talking about at the time, I just saw something and thought I'd ask a question.
Quote from: Zak S;585673Well it is a poor example and would provide evidence against your point.
Anyway, people who read things on forums far outweigh people who comment.
But anyway none of that is really the important idea here:
You're saying it's ok to decide a lot of stuff about people you don't know (not about their work--about them ) because they went pro. If that's what you're into that's what you're into. You are entitled to your hobby.
No, I'm saying it's not OSR hate to have an opinion about them. That's not deciding stuff about anybody. Deciding stuff about anybody would mean I would get to pick who writes about the OSR and who plays D&DNext for the rest of their lives. I am not so empowered.
And yeah, I get to observe people who put up a few thousand board posts, and other public interactions and form opinions about them. For instance, Gary could occasionally be a rather crusty bastard who seemed to forget what he said about a given subject on Wednesday and directly contradict it on Thursday. And I really respect the guy.
Don't make it sound like forming opinions of people is something you only do for close personal friends. That's idiotic.
And in a turn-back-around to the main point, I would say that for me personally, Travis has answered my questions about the structure of the kickstarter and all such related questions, while having no obligation to do so. Backers have plenty of info to make fully informed risk decisions now, which was my main concern with the KS itself, assuming that any of them are reading this or what has been discussed here spills over to KS updates. I meant to post this earlier but the thread moves.
Perhaps semi-ironically, we've even been able to have off-thread conversations where - in addition to noting areas of agreement - we clearly tell each other areas where we think that the other is full of shit, and yet we seem to respect each other and continue talking. Even if I think that anything called an Elven Nightblade could only be the result of a pair of 4E and Castles and Crusades books locked in a room alone with a bottle of Boone's Strawberry Hill, that doesn't take away from my appreciation for the humor that he used in parrying, what he disclosed, and how.
I'm not concerned about Dwimmermount, it'll come out eventually, I'll get much more than my $10 worth.
The thing that narks me is why Petty Gods, an OSR community project, hasn't been released. Once you crowdsource to put out something free you should follow through or at least admit to disinterest in doing anything further with it.
Yeah, Castle of the Mad Archmage.
CotMA has the distinction of being the only complete published megadungeon written in the old school style from 1974 to today - every room keyed, going from low levels to high. When level 1 and upper works are released with the complete product, before May of next year (and if Black Blade doesn't come through then the rights revert to Joe Bloch) the last quibbles about completeness will be laid to rest.
You could argue that it's complete because many of its rooms are keyed minimally and jammed together nonsensically, but there's a niche for a product like that. I know when I run something like that, I appreciate the room to put in my own stuff and make my own sense out of it. Its very existence ups the ante and forces everyone else to reconsider the originality of their tomb level, warring factions level, huge caverns level, maze level, and so on.
It's telling that the people who tried something more detailed or thematic, and probably started at around the same time as Joe, still only have a partial product to show. To paraphrase the ontological argument in philosophy - an ice cream cone that exists is more perfect than one that doesn't.
Quote from: Roger the GS;585692Yeah, Castle of the Mad Archmage.
CotMA has the distinction of being the only complete published megadungeon written in the old school style from 1974 to today - every room keyed, going from low levels to high. When level 1 and upper works are released with the complete product, before May of next year (and if Black Blade doesn't come through then the rights revert to Joe Bloch) the last quibbles about completeness will be laid to rest.
You could argue that it's complete because many of its rooms are keyed minimally and jammed together nonsensically, but there's a niche for a product like that. I know when I run something like that, I appreciate the room to put in my own stuff and make my own sense out of it. Its very existence ups the ante and forces everyone else to reconsider the originality of their tomb level, warring factions level, huge caverns level, maze level, and so on.
It's telling that the people who tried something more detailed or thematic, and probably started at around the same time as Joe, still only have a partial product to show. To paraphrase the ontological argument in philosophy - an ice cream cone that exists is more perfect than one that doesn't.
Not if it is chocolate. I can't stand chocolate.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585564Fall 2013 is optimistic for the PDF.
It should be noted that the original context of the update makes it clear that this is a typo (even if Tavis doubled down by making the same typo a second time):
(1) He talks about November 2nd, 2012 as a delivery date for the manuscript and says that's the optimistic projection, but then writes "the PDF might still reach you in the fall of 2013. Let's call this the optimistic projection."
This, all by itself, would suggest a typo for "fall of 2012".
(2) But he goes on to say that the "pessimistic projection" is June 2013. Obviously the pessimistic projection can't be
better than the optimistic projection.
See, this is what an actual typo looks like.
Quote from: Roger the GS;585692Yeah, Castle of the Mad Archmage.
CotMA has the distinction of being the only complete published megadungeon written in the old school style from 1974 to today - every room keyed, going from low levels to high. When level 1 and upper works are released with the complete product, before May of next year (and if Black Blade doesn't come through then the rights revert to Joe Bloch) the last quibbles about completeness will be laid to rest.
You could argue that it's complete because many of its rooms are keyed minimally and jammed together nonsensically, but there's a niche for a product like that. I know when I run something like that, I appreciate the room to put in my own stuff and make my own sense out of it. Its very existence ups the ante and forces everyone else to reconsider the originality of their tomb level, warring factions level, huge caverns level, maze level, and so on.
It's telling that the people who tried something more detailed or thematic, and probably started at around the same time as Joe, still only have a partial product to show. To paraphrase the ontological argument in philosophy - an ice cream cone that exists is more perfect than one that doesn't.
Reminds me of a piece of an advice a professor gave when I was beginning my PhD thesis: "Don't get it right, get it written".
Quote from: EOTB;585671It's not "JM Bad". Why are people who think he is overrated always reduced to that by his friends or fans? I haven't concentrated on any personal aspects of him I find unappealing. Shit, Gary Gygax is/was relentlessly criticized by some people within the old-school community and nobody accused them of OSR-on-OSR hate. Why is Jmal or any other pro designer/"public figure" to be treated differently? That's part of being pro.
I didn't mean to imply that you weren't entitled to your own opinion. Just trying to understand where you were coming from.
If you had said something to the effect of "I think JM is a shitty designer," I would have better understood your position. That's why I asked about CotMA. To clarify whether or not you disliked the idea of
any published MD, or just JM's.
Personally, I'm reserving judgement until DWM is released.
Where
I think JM is "overrated," is all this "he's the voice of the OSR," crap. Which, I don't see coming from his "friends or fans."
Quote from: I run with scissors;585593Cute. Deflect. Cool, use gross generalizations to deflect that this Kickstarter was not set up in the way that by _all_ public appearances it came across as. I apologize that I find this disingenuous.
Please tell me more about this whole "disingenuous" thing. You seem to have a really good handle on it.
Quote from: EOTB;585680Even if I think that anything called an Elven Nightblade could only be the result of a pair of 4E and Castles and Crusades books locked in a room alone with a bottle of Boone's Strawberry Hill, that doesn't take away from my appreciation for the humor that he used in parrying, what he disclosed, and how.
For what it's worth, Nightblade was inspired by the character class of the same name in the Morrowind videogame. Morrowind was set in the elven realm, and the nightblade class was a thief-illusionist.
I'm not a fan of either 4E or C&C.
Quote from: amacris;585748For what it's worth, Nightblade was inspired by the character class of the same name in the Morrowind videogame. Morrowind was set in the elven realm, and the nightblade class was a thief-illusionist.
Which Morrowwind (and Daggerfall before it) took from Rolemaster.
Allan Varney misquoted Gygax as saying "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." What Gary actually said was that we don't need any rules designers. This is because, since the moment the little brown books begat Tunnels & Trolls, new RPG products have been spawned by locking existing ones together in a room with mood lighting. The role of the "designer" is just to choose which two to put in - Rolemaster is a favorite for its known virility - and what kind of alcohol to supply. The ACKS rules for crossbreeding monsters are a coded reference to this practice.
Quote from: Zak S;5856001. Who do you think will be fooled into thinking all megadungeons come from people deciding to run campaigns after publishing their gaming thoughts on blogs?
I could bet some people are actually gullible or clueless enough to believe that you need to have a blog and ramble on about what you’d like to achieve to come up with a workable mega-dungeon setting instead of, you know, achieving it, but the question was rather rhetorical, wasn’t it?
Let’s just shift it a little and ask instead: are there people out there who would read a blog about a mega-dungeon, having no experience with the medium whatsoever, who would then assume you’ve got to over-think every single little detail, look at them from an historical, analytical, academic standpoint, to then be able to actually create an effective mega-dungeon? I think so, yes, particularly when we consider a sample of players that have been introduced to the game post-2000, post-internet, have never known anything other than the wankery going on around ‘game’ balance and all that bullshit, and basically have been trained to look at the game from a theoretical standpoint, surfing the web to read endless circular arguments about what-ifs online. Sure. These people certainly do exist.
These people don’t know any better. They’ve never so much as read Underworld and Wilderness Adventures, let alone played a dungeon based on the guidelines therein. We know that to start a mega-dungeon campaign all you really need is a wilderness map, a couple of levels mapped, and the associated keys, however terse, if that, actually. But reading a blog, could that notion get completely drowned into an avalanche of navel-gazing introspection and “too much information”? Sure yes, I believe so.
Quote from: Zak S;5856002. What are the possible effects of this brutally distorted view of history on the populace at large?
Imagine you are coming up with your first dungeon setting. You come up with the first few levels of your complex. You have a set of rather terse keys that go along with them. You run the thing and extrapolate from there, building further advances into the dungeons as the characters explore.
Now lets imagine you are one of very few people who actually know about this format. Let’s assume you’ve been sufficiently impressed with it, and enjoyed it enough, to want to create a game for sale around it. You include some guidelines and methodologies in this game with the expectation that getting to build your own thing and running it is a huge part of the fun of the game.
Some time down the road, you wonder about ways in which you could basically translate this experience of play itself into an actual written format so it can be played by others at conventions, at home and the like. You are thinking about the way one could format this into a
module, a unit of play. You take one or the other of your levels or basic concepts, flesh out the keys so that they appear to be written with complete sentences and the like, and you make other people play that.
Bazinga! Interest!
Surprisingly, this stuff is actually received really, really well, so much so that you think “okay, I’m going to make a business out of this stuff, make more of those, and sell them.” The DIY aspect of the original game you came up with is one thing. Being able to sell products is another. So you decide to go full steam ahead and get to work. The modules sell, you get some form of organized play going, official this, official that, you are making some money, the DIY experience of the game gradually evolves to the point you have game masters out there running ‘official’ modules sold by you, with the incidental, beneficial effect of creating a network of gamers that share the experience, which means your product stands as this particular shared experience against your competitors which soon pop up all over the place.
But here’s the thing: the way the products are built, formatted, create a game experience that is in fact different from the one you experienced with your handful of maps, your imagination, and your terse set of keys. You’ve tried to package the experience in a number of ways, all of them creating side effects on your audience. The terse translation of your initial notes will appeal to some DIY guys, but not others who want a more formatted, comprehensive experience, who want more details, more vibrant environments on the page, people who wonder how that’s supposed to actually play. So you added some boxed text to your area descriptions so game masters can see for themselves how you’d describe it… but they start actually reading it aloud mindlessly to their players, and that leads to some boring experiences. If you had too many descriptions and explicit story lines and the like, this also affect the expectations of your customers and the way they play the game, up to the point they believe the game is about creating stories on the page like the modules showed them too. The audience devolves into a readership. And on it goes.
My point here is that formatting the dungeon experience does influence the way it is played, and the effects it has on the expectations of your customers afterwards. Legends about killer DMs and boring, repetitive dungeons did not come out of nowhere. They are (in part) the fruit of some specific experiments via modules and how they affected the understanding of some game masters of the game, how they played the game, and what the player base retained out of it. Tomb of Horrors participated to the illusion that dungeons had to be these death traps and that game masters should totally go out there and kill as many PCs with their own inventions. T1-4, particularly the Temple of Elemental Evil proper, has been one of the sources of the ‘repetitive and boring dungeon’. If you ever ran the adventure, you’ll know that if you read the module and run it mindlessly, without thinking about the way you render the environment first, room per room, the game’s going to be boring, with monsters staying put in their rooms and the like. I suspect some game masters made that mistake, which participated in the idea that dungeons are boring places where it’s room after room of monsters and there’s nothing to do but bash the dude for XPs.
So the way your product chooses to emulate what you actually played and how it’s supposed to feel like ends up affecting the way other people will play the thing, and their expectations thereof.
Now let’s go back to Dwimmermount. The point of Dwimmermount was for James to experience old school play as he imagined it to be for the likes of Gygax and Arneson. It was a thought experiment to try and appraise what was going on that made the magic happen, and whether that magic could be recreated for his own enjoyment of the game. Now, at first, the attitude to build a few levels with a few terse keys associated with them seems sensible. I mean, we look at this guy’s map (one of the first levels of Castle Greyhawk) for instance:
(http://enrill.net/images/photos/GygaxGame-800.jpg)
And the key in particular, visible on the picture
(http://enrill.net/images/maps/Level_1_Key.jpg)
Discussion of that map and key there. (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6981)
There is a problem already in the emulation going on, because Gygax and Arneson weren’t copying some previous legendary game designers that ran dungeons themselves. They weren’t copying, or thinking about it in terms of an academic reconstruction. They just went at it and came up with what felt right for themselves as they played the game. James’s is not an inventor, or a creator, fundamentally. You noted it yourself on your blog some time ago when you spelled out the difference you saw between guys like you, Zak, and guys like him within the OSR: he’s not a DIY guy. He’s an historian. An archivist. How efficient could be his recreation of a DIY approach to the mega-dungeon when what he is doing is itself, an emulation, a recreation, a cosplay experience? And there you already have a serious flaw in the thinking involved, in my opinion.
But nevermind that, right? The way James’ goes about it doesn’t look or sound too out of place. He plays his dungeon with some friends, talks about it on his blog, and lo and behold! Interest. More playing goes on, and the idea to package this idea into an actual mega-dungeon product comes up.
Here’s where you hit the wall: conceived in this particular way, you have to be careful how you choose to package the dungeon, and what exactly you want the product, the text, the format, the packaging of the thing to accomplish. I suspect that part of the delays James is experiencing right now came from this realization: that it’s one thing to run the thing the way your imagined Gary Gygax would have done it, having your maps and your terse keys behind your GM screen and just going at it armed with your imagination and cleverness, on one hand, and actually packaging this experience so that others can experience it for themselves, on the other hand.
How do you format the thing? You could go with just packaging your notes as they are. Complete sentences, put the dots and comas where they belong, add a few art pieces here and there maybe, and done. But there you have all the creative process that’s going on while you were running the game itself that’s missing.
So what do you do? You could go with the boxed texts, with the game play flaws they engender. You could script ‘storylines’ into the dungeon in a way that emulates your previous work with White Wolf and blends it with the dungeon experience, but then, that type of way to do it has been explored in the past as well (I6 Ravenloft and the like, I am looking at you), with the results on the wider game audience we know (ultimately, 2nd edition AD&D). Can James actually package the dungeon in a way that avoids these pitfalls and creates something that yes, recreates the Legendary feel of his original campaign, without having the dungeon devolve into an “how-to” sourcebook, and without just aping modules that preceded it, have nothing to do with the way he, James, actually ran the thing, and which, themselves, failed in various ways in recreating the experience of their authors, to teach to people how to fish for themselves using the tools provided, instead of just dumping some fish on them and calling it a day?
I’m doubtful he can accomplish that, because he’s an archivist at heart, and someone with a very reactionary view of the world to boot – the political ramblings c. 2007 actually demonstrate that in spades, to me. Maybe he can pull it off, and provide a very stunning product that’ll deliver on all the hype while being true to the DIY origins of his emulation and thought experiment. If not, like all the previous dungeon formats that preceded it, it will have some ipso facto unfortunate effect(s) that will mean that the final game play on the customers’ parts will not match the original intent and not be the "authentic", "legendary" deal.
And let me be clear: there is no problem to me when a module isn’t 100% authentic to the experience, because that’s exactly what 100% of dungeons so far have accomplished, from my point of view – no dungeon has ever delivered the real deal (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=518418#post518418), in fact. All of them are more or less, by essence, unfinished products. But it IS incoherent and it IS misleading when you hype your dungeon as authentic, think about it as an "authentic emulation" in the first place, think about it as a "legendary" emulator, and end up not delivering the real deal. There is a falsehood, a mirage here, that is IMO worth pointing out.
Quote from: Benoist;585888Can James actually package the dungeon in a way that avoids these pitfalls and creates something that yes, recreates the Legendary feel of his original campaign, without having the dungeon devolve into an “how-to” sourcebook, and without just aping modules that preceded it, have nothing to do with the way he, James, actually ran the thing, and which, themselves, failed in various ways in recreating the experience of their authors, to teach to people how to fish for themselves using the tools provided, instead of just dumping some fish on them and calling it a day?
I’m doubtful he can accomplish that, because he’s an archivist at heart, and someone with a very reactionary view of the world to boot – the political ramblings c. 2007 actually demonstrate that in spades, to me. Maybe he can pull it off, and provide a very stunning product that’ll deliver on all the hype while being true to the DIY origins of his emulation and thought experiment. If not, like all the previous dungeon formats that preceded it, it will have some ipso facto unfortunate effect(s) that will mean that the final game play on the customers’ parts will not match the original intent and not be the "authentic", "legendary" deal.
This right here seems to be the nut of your argument.
And it boils down to:
You do not think (for reasons of your own) that James will be good at making dungeon modules. Or at least he's not good at making megadungeons
in the way Gary et al made them and which they never translated to print--which was a good way and, I suspect in your judgment, a better way than you expect James to make them. (You are allowed to think that.)
Therefore you think Dwimmer will suck. Or at least not be "true to" its predecessors and by "true" you mean "reproducing an experience that was good largely because it was put together in a good way". (You are allowed to think that.)
Therefore James promoting Dwimmer as if it will be good (or "true by virtue of being good in a certain way") and as if it will do what he wants it to do is somehow (to you)
dishonest. (This is where the problem starts.)
James, like everyone else in the world, is totally allowed to try to do something
he thinks he can do and then fail. That may make him incompetent, but just saying "this is gonna be like the awesome dungeons back in the day" does not make him dishonest or disingenuous.
In essence it seems you are trying to argue he is being
unethical merely by being not up to your standards of awesome dungeon design and presentation.
If James were trying something he didn't actually think he could do? Then yes, that's not right or fair. If he weren't trying his best to put out his best work (as TSR did not do with their megadungeons) ? Then yeah, unethical. But this you're describing? No.
______
As for the baleful effects of this suboptimal megadungeon--sure, but now you're getting close to storygames.com type social-justice whompery "This product is bad because of what stupid people will do when confronted with it".
I made a decision long ago not to care what they did, you apparently have decided to care. There is not a lot I care to do about that.
Actually no, that wasn't my argument. And I do think that James can come up with a decent mega-module, even a good one, like others before it. My argument was that James saw his thought experiment as authentic, which, by virtue of being a thought experiment copying guys who actually DIYed, actually made it not authentic, that the physical form (text) itself is deforming the original experience, whatever it is, which in itself is a huge challenge to overcome, and hasn't been overcome by previous formats, and since James is likely to emulate these formats, since he is an archivist and not a inovator, it is unlikely to have any different results than the previous experiments on the medium. My argument was that Dwimmermount was presented as authentic and legendary, when it wasn't to begin with and probably will not be once it hits the presses. Which is what I meant there:
Quote from: Benoist;585595Well an example coming to mind is the idea that Dwimmermount represents an accurate image of the likes of Greyhawk and Blackmoor.
Castle Greyhawk and Blackmoor are settings that developed organically, through the act of play, and were not originally written as "thought exercises" as Dwimmermount was presented on the blog. This is gives a wrong impression of where a "legendary" mega-dungeon actually comes from, how it comes into being, why and how it plays the way it does.
But if you want to keep holding the OSR party line at all costs instead of, you know, actually seeing what I'm saying which, since you define yourself as DIY expert at the core, I suspect you actually do understand (don't you?), have at it, by all means. Somebody said something that goes against the OSR party line! Rawr! It must be defended at all costs! News at 11.
Quote from: Benoist;585914ince he is an archivist and not a inovator, it is unlikely to have any different results than the previous experiments on the medium.
That "archivist rather than innovator" is your own idea though, not James'.
In this (and perhaps only this) James himself thinks he
can innovate. This isn't
dishonest even if he's wrong.
Quote from: Zak S;585919That "archivist rather than innovator" is your own idea though, not James'.
Actually, it's your own idea, which I happen to agree with, where you posited yourself as the "Do It Yourself" kind of guy, versus guys like James, who are more record keepers and archivists. Can't remember if it was an entry on your blog, or a conversation we had together.
Quote from: Benoist;585931Actually, it's your own idea, which I happen to agree with, where you posited yourself as the "Do It Yourself" kind of guy, versus guys like James, who are more record keepers and archivists. Can't remember if it was an entry on your blog, or a conversation we had together.
No matter what, it isn't
James idea--in this case,
in 2012, for this project--so he isn't dishonest in thinking and saying he can do it.
Quote from: Zak S;585933No matter what, it isn't James idea--in this case, in 2012, for this project--so he isn't dishonest in thinking and saying he can do it.
You're right: whether it's dishonest is between James and his conscience, whether he honestly believes it when he says he will recreate an authentic product emulating the legendary experiences of DIY Gygax and Arneson, in which case his beliefs are problematic, as I argumented above, or he actually doesn't believe it and engages in pure marketing bullshit, in which case he is being dishonest.
Quote from: Benoist;585888How do you format the thing? You could go with just packaging your notes as they are. Complete sentences, put the dots and comas where they belong, add a few art pieces here and there maybe, and done. But there you have all the creative process that's going on while you were running the game itself that's missing.
Can James actually package the dungeon in a way that avoids these pitfalls and creates something that yes, recreates the Legendary feel of his original campaign, without having the dungeon devolve into an "how-to" sourcebook,
Regardless of how this specifically applies to James what about the general case? I guess I am not following you when you say a "how-to" sourcebook.
The way I figure it if you want to write a different type of setting or adventure product than what been done before. You write it up not only with the details but HOW you ran it. In essence teach you the reader how I ran the place. Now this is a how-to sourcebook in part but much more limited in scope, focused on the dungeon itself.
For example I have how-to make a sandbox series of post that applies in a general sense how I create settings. But if I would write up the Majestic Wilderlands with one of the objectives to teach you how I run it, a lot of that advice would be duplicate but with one important difference. It would be focused solely on how I applied it to the Majestic Wilderlands.
It is the difference between learning about woodworking as a craft versus how to make a wooden rocking chair to learning how to create a Colonial style Rocking Chair. While woodworking advice will abound in the book about the Colonial style there will some very specific material that only applies to that style.
The same way with a Greyhawk Mega Dungeon, Blackmoor, Dwimmermount, or yours. Of course part of it will be "how to" manual that would be the point of it. How you ran the place because learning that would allow the prospective referee to recreate what you did.
However there nothing that limits the referee ability to add stuff, just like you can add your own embellishment to a Colonial style rocking chair. The result isn't the original but it OK because that what person decided to do.
Again I am not saying anything specific for or against James' Dwimmermount.
Finding a solution to that conundrum that I would be personally comfortable with describing a dungeon in a module format is something I'm really mulling over right now.
Part of it definitely should be in the 'how to' format, with pointed explanations and laying out particular expectations on the DM's part, but not only. I think it can be helped by the writing itself, the way the information is organized and presented, and some of the structures/rules elements as well. I'm thinking about things like the probabilities I included in my key where you have "this room's inhabitant can be found here 4-in-6" and the like, which not only means that the guy might be here or not here, but that inhabitants in the dungeon are basically constantly moving around and going about their own business, which then the DM can grasp and run with to make the game fun and lively for everyone involved. Or how the rooms themselves are described, the kind of descriptive elements that encourage DMs to elaborate on their own terms, rather than reading read-aloud text and so on.
These are still some concepts I am digesting for myself and I expect my takes on it to evolve drastically over the next while. What I would not do is call my approach on it "authentic" when compared to dungeons of the past. I'm basically trying to come up with my way, something that could satisfy my own expectations and those of my players, rather than trying to recreate something someone else ran or did in the past.
Quote from: Benoist;585952These are still some concepts I am digesting for myself and I expect my takes on it to evolve drastically over the next while.
That where I pretty much at myself. One reason I include copious Rob's Notes throughout Scourge of the Demon Wolf was to try to get away from how modules were done in the past. I am satisfied with how the adventure half turned out.
But for the supplement half I didn't the insight about "Teaching somebody how I ran it.", until 80% of it was written. So I continued with the format, keyed location map, until it was finished. Next time I write up locales in detail, I will do it differently to reflect better how I run things.
Quote from: estar;585950The way I figure it if you want to write a different type of setting or adventure product than what been done before. You write it up not only with the details but HOW you ran it. In essence teach you the reader how I ran the place.
For the second time I want to support this insight. It is something I have been saying for years. The only people who get the concept are creators of original material and there has been little to no discussion of the notion. I see it as a very difficult problem to figure out how to extract an adventure or location from my game so that it could be recreated with a meaningful degree of fidelity at some other gametable. Creative types are unlikely to play the game as outlined and transmitted through the popular formula of Gygax's modules because D&D is so open-ended.
Innovation of structure and format (not layout) may be a secondary consideration but it is a consideration sine qua non for me.
Stuff like this makes me skeptical of the whole idea of Kickstarters.
Quote from: estar;585955That where I pretty much at myself. One reason I include copious Rob's Notes throughout Scourge of the Demon Wolf was to try to get away from how modules were done in the past. I am satisfied with how the adventure half turned out.
But for the supplement half I didn't the insight about "Teaching somebody how I ran it.", until 80% of it was written. So I continued with the format, keyed location map, until it was finished. Next time I write up locales in detail, I will do it differently to reflect better how I run things.
That's an organic process, for sure, and not only when you work on different things at different times, but also different people coming up with different things over time, too. Scourge of the Demon Wolf will I expect involve some really interesting bits or approach on that ergonomic front, and will in turn hopefully inspire others to come up with their own twist on these ideas and so on.
There's room for everyone's stuff, and hopefully it snowballs and feeds each and everyone and provides variety and so on. That includes the mega-dungeon niche too, by the way. On my shelf in front of me I have a number of those products: Rappan Athuk, Castle White Rock, Zagyg, Undermountain, World's Largest Dungeon, Anomalous Subsurface Environment, you name it, and I enjoy them all in their own way. The more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Benoist;585595Castle Greyhawk and Blackmoor are settings that developed organically, through the act of play, and were not originally written as "thought exercises" as Dwimmermount was presented on the blog. This gives a wrong impression of where a "legendary" mega-dungeon actually comes from, how it comes into being, why and how it plays the way it does. The "legendary" moniker is just the cherry on the top of the cake, the top of the iceberg, in that sense.
Required reading: "Pierre Menard, author of the
Quixote".
Quote from: Benoist;585914Actually no, that wasn't my argument. And I do think that James can come up with a decent mega-module, even a good one, like others before it. My argument was that James saw his thought experiment as authentic, which, by virtue of being a thought experiment copying guys who actually DIYed, actually made it not authentic, that the physical form (text) itself is deforming the original experience, whatever it is, which in itself is a huge challenge to overcome, and hasn't been overcome by previous formats, and since James is likely to emulate these formats, since he is an archivist and not a inovator, it is unlikely to have any different results than the previous experiments on the medium. My argument was that Dwimmermount was presented as authentic and legendary, when it wasn't to begin with and probably will not be once it hits the presses. Which is what I meant there:
Sounds like you were saying that James is trying to play jazz in his game, because Gygax played jazz, and james wanted to recapture the jazz feeling and experience, but then when he decided to sell it he is trying to codify how to do jazz and how he did jazz which by definition wouldn't make it jazz anymore.
Quote from: Joethelawyer;586034Sounds like you were saying that James is trying to play jazz in his game, because Gygax played jazz, and james wanted to recapture the jazz feeling and experience, but then when he decided to sell it he is trying to codify how to do jazz and how he did jazz which by definition wouldn't make it jazz anymore.
Yes, in a way.
Ben, I think you are always on shaky ground when you try to account for 'motives' in any sort of creative endeavor.
Accepting that calling Dwimmermount old school is largely hyperbole I'm still not concerned that it might be corrupting our gaming youth. At the end of the day it will be a good dungeon or it won't and much of that will come down to the skill/attitude of the groups playing it. Who hasn't had a great play experience with a module that is objectively shit or an average to poor experience with a module that is widely rated as great?
One thing is for sure, Dwimmermount's status as legendary can no longer be disputed. It will be celebrated as a legendary fuckup if nothing else.
Quote from: I run with scissors;584897You do realize that under United States tax code money generated via Kickstarter must be declared. As an independent contractor you are exempt up to $700, and anything above that has to be declared...I'm just a troll, so what do I know.
Where are you getting an "up to $700 exemption" from?
Quote from: TristramEvans;584900Interesting aside, I haven't paid any taxes since I discovered that it was perfectly legal to calculate the money that would be owed and then send a cheque for that amount to the charity of my choice, and a letter to the IRS declaring this decision.
I don't know what nation you live in, but in the United States you absolutely cannot legally do that.
Quote from: TristramEvans;585136This actually has nothing to do with charitable donations which deduct from the taxes owed. You can legally declare on moral grounds that you do not like how you're tax money is being spent by the government and instead send any money owed to an officially recognized charity of one's choice, an option I discovered through my lawyer in the late 90s. Yes, I recommend speaking to your own research lawyer before pursuing this, but the optionis there and one I've taken advantage of.
Of course, legally the U.S. government has no right to force any citizen to pay taxes, but an unratified amendment to the consititution in 1913 makes this a hard one to fight.
Ah, OK, you're a fucking moron tax evader who will, eventually, end up in prison. None of what you're saying is correct. You cannot legally donate to charity instead of paying your taxes on moral grounds. The U.S. does have a right to force citizens to pay taxes, and that was confirmed by the USSC, which the US Constitution empowers to make Constitutional decisions. I say this with the 100% confidence provided by the fact that I've been an attorney since 1995, and you sir will eventually end up in prison for tax evasion.
Quote from: TristramEvans;585145lol, I don't even live in the States anymore so the issue is mute. But random internet guy on an rpg forum vs established family lawyer? don't be offended if I roll my eyes.
I'm an established attorney, and you're very wrong.
Also, the word is MOOT. Not mute, it's MOOT. The issue is MOOT, the point is MOOT. And, of course, your tax evasion can still come back to haunt you even outside the United States. And, thanks to this thread, perhaps it will.
Can you take the tax horseshit to another thread?
Quote from: kythri;586158Can you take the tax horseshit to another thread?
What about tax write-offs for nondelivering kickstarters?
I kid, I kid:-)
Quote from: Mistwell;586157I'm an established attorney, and you're very wrong.
Also, the word is MOOT. Not mute, it's MOOT. The issue is MOOT, the point is MOOT. And, of course, your tax evasion can still come back to haunt you even outside the United States. And, thanks to this thread, perhaps it will.
actually it's MOO. Like a cow's opinion. It's meaningless. It's...MOO.
Perhaps you missed Pundit's request that this week-old tangent you're responding to be dropped? Anyways that's why I'm not going to argue the point with you. That and the fact that it happened. I did that for years. So claiming its not possible is just sort of amusing to me. And no, it won't come back to "haunt me" because of this thread.
Quote from: kythri;586158Can you take the tax horseshit to another thread?
Sorry it's a very long thread and I'm trying to catch up.
Quote from: TristramEvans;586597actually it's MOO. Like a cow's opinion. It's meaningless. It's...MOO.
Really? Really?!
Quote from: kythri;586631Really? Really?!
That's a pop culture reference, though not a particularly interesting one. You shouldn't feel too bad about not getting it, though you may want to get your doctor to check out your funny bone next time you stop by for a check-up.
Quote from: Benoist;585888My point here is that formatting the dungeon experience does influence the way it is played, and the effects it has on the expectations of your customers afterwards.
One of my all-time favorite modules, for any roleplaying game - and one which is roundly reviled by many - is
Operation: Sprechenhaltestelle for
Top Secret.
O:S is usually derided as a 'dungeon crawl,' to be cleared by agents armed to the teeth, and I've no doubt that that's the way many, if not most, gamers played it, which is a gawddamned shame 'cause if you pay attention to the spy network chart, you discover that Sprechenhaltestelle is alive with factions which can be manipulated by clever agents to achieve their mission objectives.
The thing is, nowhere is this spelled out for the Administrator, other than a failrly opaque chart of alphanumeric npc ids and some cues in the descriptions of the various businesses and other locations in Sprechenhaltestelle. It needs to be sussed out by the Administrator with some fairly close reading.
That kind of thinking is pretty foreign with respect to published products, but it wasn't at all uncommon in modules published before, say, 1979 or thereabouts. Few modules or setting books were as terse as the notes from which Gary Gygax ran Castle Greyhawk, but in many cases the - and I don't like using this word because of all the baggage it carries, but it's late and I'm tired and I can't think of anything better - 'story' of the module is implied through decriptions of characters and places. Consider the hapless paladin Sir Runic Rump and his many nemeses within and without Tegel Manor, and the potential for intrigue with which the setting is imbued as a result.
If you begin with the expectation that a module is supposed to be the pieces of a 'story' to be assembled and manipulated by each refeee individually to create a unique experience, then what you include in that module and how you present it begins to look very different than if you are trying to create a readily replicable experience at table after table after table.
Quote from: I run with scissors;585580Honest question: where do you come down on a middle man in the Kickstarter, as is the case with Autarch being the middleman for Jim? Not trying to be a dick, I am honestly curious.
IRWS
I don't see why that would inherently be a bad thing; if both parties (the author and the publisher/middleman/whatever) were competent and doing an honest effort.
RPGPundit
Quote from: TristramEvans;586636That's a pop culture reference, though not a particularly interesting one. You shouldn't feel too bad about not getting it, though you may want to get your doctor to check out your funny bone next time you stop by for a check-up.
"Friends" isn't funny, dude.
Quote from: RPGPundit;586681I don't see why that would inherently be a bad thing; if both parties (the author and the publisher/middleman/whatever) were competent and doing an honest effort.
RPGPundit
I think full disclosure of such a situation should be made very clear from the start, myself.
Especially in a "we're running this funding project, and then turning all the money over to this other person" setup.
Quote from: Benoist;585595Well an example coming to mind is the idea that Dwimmermount represents an accurate image of the likes of Greyhawk and Blackmoor.
Castle Greyhawk and Blackmoor are settings that developed organically, through the act of play, and were not originally written as "thought exercises" as Dwimmermount was presented on the blog. This gives a wrong impression of where a "legendary" mega-dungeon actually comes from, how it comes into being, why and how it plays the way it does. The "legendary" moniker is just the cherry on the top of the cake, the top of the iceberg, in that sense.
This brings something to my mind. How does Dwimmermount, in the sense you are describing above, differ from Greyhawk than Greyhawk from Blackmoor? I am playing devil's advocate here. But technically isn't Greyhawk Gygax's "thought experiment" based on what he experienced playing Arneson's Blackmoor?
We know that Gygax's Greyhawk, in rules and style, diverged quickly from Blackmoor enough that Arneson wasn't entirely happy with the result particularly with the rules.
Then bringing this back, how the process of Greyhawk differ from the process of Dwimmermount? Of course one obvious point is that Gygax actually experienced Arneson's Blackmoor, while James Mal only read about Greyhawk/Blackmoor. But is that really necessary?
Anyway some thoughts from reading your comments.
Quote from: estar;586759This brings something to my mind. How does Dwimmermount, in the sense you are describing above, differ from Greyhawk than Greyhawk from Blackmoor? I am playing devil's advocate here. But technically isn't Greyhawk Gygax's "thought experiment" based on what he experienced playing Arneson's Blackmoor?
We know that Gygax's Greyhawk, in rules and style, diverged quickly from Blackmoor enough that Arneson wasn't entirely happy with the result particularly with the rules.
Then bringing this back, how the process of Greyhawk differ from the process of Dwimmermount? Of course one obvious point is that Gygax actually experienced Arneson's Blackmoor, while James Mal only read about Greyhawk/Blackmoor. But is that really necessary?
Anyway some thoughts from reading your comments.
I am not Benoist but I can share my thought on that.
I guess that Gygax was not conscioulsy mirroring Arneson's game (style), and as you said, Greyhawk quickly became its own thing. Every player who discovered D&D did the same - of course did we all follow models (modules, dungeons and encounters) but we all wanted to play, not relive someone else's experiences.
If I set out to build a small setting like Greyhawk or Blackmoor I invent a place, inhabitants, conflict. Play starts and it might turn into a megadungeon - or not.
I don't look too sharply on what Gygax and Arneson did, though I might borrow Arneson's "map trick" (taking a real-world corner and tweak the map), and this I would do in the spirit of homage.
I even might plan to "do a megadungeon" - but from then on everything would be my own. I won't look at how the old hands did it. I'd try to find my own rationale why a thing such as a megadungeon might exist, and it would turn out differently than Castle Greyhawk or Dwimmermount.
What differentiates Dwimmermount from the original campaigns is the conscious decision to limit the (rules) material and to follow in the footsteps of others, trying to build, or play, or experience what they did. But that can't happen. Especially not if you are a GM with 20+ years of gaming experience on your shoulders.
Very often I ask myself what turn Aventuria, the setting of Das Schwarze Auge, could have taken if it had followed the design of the very first rules box and modules. The game quickly turned from a sword & sorcery (& planet) setting into a kind-of renaissance setting, with DL-like metaplot, Mary-Sue npcs, etc.
Two weeks ago I GMed DSA first edition, using just the rules and setting facts that were established in the first box. I tried to find the wonder that those first-timers in 1985 must have felt (I have never GMed DSA before).
But every decision I made was a subconscious comment on what DSA and Aventurien
had become. The whole thing was too self-referential.
You can't unlearn.
ADD:
So, designing a megadungeon setting because you like megadungeons - fine.
Designing a megadungeon out of vague historical, academical, or proof-of-concept reasons - fine also. But the latter can't be "legendary" thing. It might even turn out the exact opposite of a classical game, 1974 style.
There's the Observer Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_%28physics%29) at work.
Quote from: kythri;586736I think full disclosure of such a situation should be made very clear from the start, myself.
Especially in a "we're running this funding project, and then turning all the money over to this other person" setup.
I think it depends. If Company A had said "we're going to be editing and doing art, etc for this game" and then they just give all the money to "Person M" and leave him to it, that's a problem.
If on the other hand they had never explicitly said anything of the sort; but what they have done is in essence assume responsibility for this "Person M", adding their good name to his project with the understanding that its meant to imply their reliability acts as a kind of guarantee that "Person M" can be trusted to deliver a good product in an effective fashion, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
The problem there isn't the setup in the first place, but what happens after if it turns out "Person M" is a fuckwad who screws up and leaves Company A in the lurch.
RPGPundit
Quote from: noisms;585443Maybe he took one look at this thread and realised there is literally nothing that he can say that would make any difference whatsoever.
Or maybe he came to the entirely sensible conclusion that he has no obligation at all to explain himself other than to the people who backed Dwimmermount, which he is apparently doing through updates.
Or maybe he's just sick of people bitching.
Just three possibilities.
Also, I believe he's, like Zak S and some other people, gettingto the conclusion that you can have far more interesting conversations in Google+ without going to some random forum to get shat upon by whoever random dude that decides to get mad at you because fuck you, that's why.
Quote from: PatW;585474Ideas getting challenged is a charitable way to describe what goes on in this thread. This is a crazy hate-fest and James would be insane to come in here to get abused by the one guy who's been offered a refund and refused to take it, and the many others who have no stake in the product at all and just enjoy stirring up crap.
Yup.
Quote from: noisms;585491Yeah, that must be it - he's terrified of all you badasses and your, er, keyboards.
:rotfl: True that
QuoteThis will be forgotten about in two weeks. The people who for whom the very existence of Grognardia is a mortal affront will go on shaking their fists from a distance, the people who read and comment on it will keep reading and commenting on it, and the rest of the world will ignore it.
Same old, same old.
Quote from: RPGPundit;586825I think it depends. If Company A had said "we're going to be editing and doing art, etc for this game" and then they just give all the money to "Person M" and leave him to it, that's a problem.
I think the fact that they're project creator implies or alludes to such a statement.
When you plaster your name all over something, it leads folks to believe that you're actively involved in it.
In this case, Autarch really isn't.
I guess the bigger question then is, would folks have backed said project had they known details like this?
I know on several projects I've backed, I've backed due to confidence in the entity that created the project, and not necessarily the known-or-unknown author or artist.
Quote from: RPGPundit;586825If on the other hand they had never explicitly said anything of the sort; but what they have done is in essence assume responsibility for this "Person M", adding their good name to his project with the understanding that its meant to imply their reliability acts as a kind of guarantee that "Person M" can be trusted to deliver a good product in an effective fashion, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
See, there's not an issue with this, specifically, because the understanding is that their reliability is that guarantee - but, given that most RPG "companies" these days are 1-or-2-man shops that don't have a lot of security in the bank, it immediately calls into question that reliability when you discover "oh, hey, they don't have that $50K, or any substantial portion thereof, we all paid them, nor do they have anything to show for it."
Note: I'm not a backer of this project, but my concern extends to any other similarly handled projects.
Quote from: RPGPundit;586825The problem there isn't the setup in the first place, but what happens after if it turns out "Person M" is a fuckwad who screws up and leaves Company A in the lurch.
Writers and artists flake all the time, or so I'm told. This is why they're not paid for their work in advance, and this is especially why contracted freelancers aren't entrusted with design, art, editing, layout, printing, sales and order fulfillment.
Which seems to be what has happened here, and seems to be a problem with the setup, not the fuckwad who left them in the lurch.
Quote from: Imperator;586828Also, I believe he's, like Zak S and some other people, gettingto the conclusion that you can have far more interesting conversations in Google+ without going to some random forum to get shat upon by whoever random dude that decides to get mad at you because fuck you, that's why.
Boy, I don't know if I'll be able to handle waiting for the utter tripe produced from such a circle-jerk echo chamber.
Quote from: Imperator;586828Also, I believe he's, like Zak S and some other people, gettingto the conclusion that you can have far more interesting conversations in Google+ without going to some random forum to get shat upon by whoever random dude that decides to get mad at you because fuck you, that's why.
A forum is a football field.
Google+ is a massage clinic.
Quote from: kythri;586868Boy, I don't know if I'll be able to handle waiting for the utter tripe produced from such a circle-jerk echo chamber.
So far it has produced mostly people typing sentences about why they like games and hate each other. Not unlike all other game forums.
Well, that and we play games.
Quote from: Zak S;586887So far it has produced mostly people typing sentences about why they like games and hate each other. Not unlike all other game forums.
I'll be damned. That really does sound like hands down the absolute best place to talk about RPGs. I never would have thought to look for a place
NOT unlike all other game forums.
Quote from: kythri;586915I'll be damned. That really does sound like hands down the absolute best place to talk about RPGs. I never would have thought to look for a place NOT unlike all other game forums.
The motto is "Just Like All Other Game Forums Except You Can Play Games And Kent Isn't Here" which I think, really, sums up the appeal.
Quote from: estar;586759This brings something to my mind. How does Dwimmermount, in the sense you are describing above, differ from Greyhawk than Greyhawk from Blackmoor? I am playing devil's advocate here. But technically isn't Greyhawk Gygax's "thought experiment" based on what he experienced playing Arneson's Blackmoor?
Well Dirk really answered it well. The main difference I see is that Gary wasn't out to replicate Arneson's Blackmoor religiously. Instead he took the essence of what he experienced and what resonated with his own gaming inclinations to craft his own take on it. Likewise, Arneson didn't simply copy the Braunstein games and pieced together a gaming experience through the Napoleonian game that fleshed out how the Blackmoor campaign itself came to be played, and how it evolved from there.
I think that by trying to replicate past game play experiences from the luminaries of the hobby as a sort of "cosplay" thing you're losing a part of the tradition itself, which Rob Kuntz called the "enchantment" aspect of the game, and which was widely debated during the ENWorld years under the "sense of wonder" turn of phrase. So in my mind, there certainly is a way to pay respect to the tradition and build on it in a fashion that is, in fact, traditional, without falling into the pitfall of simply aping what preceeded ad nauseam.
At your local Google+ Massage clinic:
Squeeze, knead, rub, knead, rub, knead, squeeze
--How's that?
- Ooooh, aaaaahhhh, nnniiiice, (groans softly), ... eh don't stop.
Squeeze, knead, rub, knead, rub, knead, squeeze
--Was that good?
- Ppuuurrrrhhhhh!
I couldn't help smiling when I read the discussion started by Zak S on Google plus that more or less could be summarized as "Jeez isn't the RPG Site a horrible place?" and having all the people, including James by the way, patting each other on the back to observe just how superior their moderation and social skills really are.
Combined with Zak's post on his blog explaining how G+ is awesome (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.ca/2012/09/the-future-of-talking-about-games.html) because if you suck (meaning, if you "bore people" in some fashion, i.e. if you stray too far away from the circle's accepted consensus/rule of the many) I can tune it out so this is the bestest community ever, I can't help but feel a sense of irony out of this whole thing.
Oh and apparently people criticizing other people who like G+ because they can turn it into the echo chamber they really want out of their gaming, which is, you know, exactly what Zak was talking about on his blog post, in essence, to me, are really horrible people prejudicing towards you, but if you then turn around to say that forums are cesspools of hate, it's cool, you just made a perfectly reasonable observation.
Talk about double standards.
Quote from: _kent_;586873A forum is a football field.
Google+ is a massage clinic.
At first I liked your 'football field' analogy for some forums, then it occurred to me you were probably talking about soccer, and I lost the analogy other than the "two teams" angle.
I will vouch that my experience on G+ has been neither an echo chamber nor a circle jerk thus far. Some people are perfectly capable of having productive conversations with people; even people with whom they disagree on some things. If a modicum of civility and a love of gaming looks like a circle-jerk to you, Kent, that's your pathology, not mine. That being said, I have encountered some gamers on G+ that I ended up blocking or generally ignoring because they can't shut up about politics or religion or whatever; that's no different than putting someone on 'ignore' on a forum, I suppose.
Quote from: Benoist;586965I couldn't help smiling when I read the discussion started by Zak S on Google plus that more or less could be summarized as "Jeez isn't the RPG Site a horrible place?" and having all the people, including James by the way, patting each other on the back to observe just how superior their moderation and social skills really are.
Combined with Zak's post on his blog explaining how G+ is awesome (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.ca/2012/09/the-future-of-talking-about-games.html) because if you suck (meaning, if you "bore people" in some fashion, i.e. if you stray too far away from the circle's accepted consensus/rule of the many) I can tune it out so this is the bestest community ever, I can't help but feel a sense of irony out of this whole thing.
Oh and apparently people criticizing other people who like G+ because they can turn it into the echo chamber they really want out of their gaming, which is, you know, exactly what Zak was talking about on his blog post, in essence, to me, are really horrible people prejudicing towards you, but if you then turn around to say that forums are cesspools of hate, it's cool, you just made a perfectly reasonable observation.
Talk about double standards.
A facts-on-the-ground challenge then, Benoist:
1- Decide an objective metric of "echo chamberness"--Lack of contact between opposing points of view? Lack of new ideas produced? Lack of game sessions created or reported? Then we wait a month and see who is right.
2-A GMing duel (by which all disputes between anyone remotely cool should be decided). 2 players of yours, 2 of James' and 2 random souls go delving and play games with each of you (over skype or the dreaded Google +). Then the delvers vote on which they liked best. As many times as you like.
Men of good faith should never disagree over provable things.
I'm sorry Zak. With the whining going on on G+ and the whole fishing for confirmation bias thing going on there you've lost any semblance of good faith you had in this discussion, to me. I won't be playing your games this time around.
Note, citizens:
Gauntlet thrown.
Gauntlet refused.
Quote from: Zak S;586975Note, citizens:
Gauntlet thrown.
Gauntlet refused.
You have more in common with the people trolling this board going on about "thunderdomes" than I ever thought possible, Zak. I'm sorry. I'm not twelve anymore.
There is irony in the fact that this forum welcomes people like Zak letting him speak freely and even if he is sneakily critical elsewhere of the forum his cowardice (for not airing his view here but hanging around all the same) is tolerated yet he can't enjoy a discussion unless he has complete technical control over who comments and the comments themselves.
This is not a self confident person who requires handicap provisions to play with the other boys, or if he is, he is someone who cannot stand the fact that his utterances are not artificially privileged, which they will never be on a public forum worthy of the name.
Finally, no-one with taste or brains takes internet video gaming seriously unless they have no other means to game. A swordfighter would not pick up a gauntlet thrown in the muck by a streetbrawler. Again Zak must have control over the terms of engagement. Skype gaming - LOL.
Quote from: _kent_;586982Finally, no-one with taste or brains takes internet video gaming seriously unless they have no other means to game.
I am sure we are all shocked.
Shocked!
To hear Kent has no friends overseas.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;586779Very often I ask myself what turn Aventuria, the setting of Das Schwarze Auge, could have taken if it had followed the design of the very first rules box and modules. The game quickly turned from a sword & sorcery (& planet) setting into a kind-of renaissance setting, with DL-like metaplot, Mary-Sue npcs, etc.
Two weeks ago I GMed DSA first edition, using just the rules and setting facts that were established in the first box. I tried to find the wonder that those first-timers in 1985 must have felt (I have never GMed DSA before).
But every decision I made was a subconscious comment on what DSA and Aventurien had become. The whole thing was too self-referential.
You can't unlearn.
That is a very interesting comment. I can relate to it in the way I went back to OD&D c. 2007 via other games (C&C, Lejendary rules). The thing was that I had not experienced OD&D before in actual play. I had started playing D&D with Advanced (1e) and transitioned as a GM with L'Oeil Noir and Mentzer's Red Box D&D.
So what I did was go back in time and look for what was missing to me in the games I had played recently. For some reason, the white box I had gotten from Monte Cook held a great appeal to me: I saw there a vibe, a flair that reminded me of what I played when I was a kid in a way. So I went there trying to craft a campaign setting I would be comfortable with to run the game then and house rule organically to shape it into "my" D&D. From the start, I had this attitude for instance to not have my campaign (which I elected would be my Greyhawk) not be a reflexion of Gary Gygax's. So I basically built my version of the Greyhawk area using bits and pieces of other things and having an approach of "this the official thing - MY official thing" and taking it into any way I wanted. I experimented with the rules in different ways too with several dice of damage depending on level and not weapons and reflecting some of the equivalences in Men you could find in Chainmail...
Anyway. Maybe it's because I did *not* play OD&D before, but I found I could unlearn the stuff I had internalized from 3rd ed and go back to that satisfying play experience I wanted from the game. Later I would migrate back to AD&D and have a much more careful approach than just breaking everything open to rebuild it from scratch, and reading the DMG I found myself to be in a different place as a DM, a place which probably my 12-year old self wouldn't have recognized.
I'd like to give L'Oeil Noir a run again. Just the basic rules you know. And some carefully selected modules, maybe. Not the story-script shit that came out for the game later on. Maybe the Havena boxed set. God that stuff was awesome.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;586651One of my all-time favorite modules, for any roleplaying game - and one which is roundly reviled by many - is Operation: Sprechenhaltestelle for Top Secret.
O:S is usually derided as a 'dungeon crawl,' to be cleared by agents armed to the teeth, and I've no doubt that that's the way many, if not most, gamers played it, which is a gawddamned shame 'cause if you pay attention to the spy network chart, you discover that Sprechenhaltestelle is alive with factions which can be manipulated by clever agents to achieve their mission objectives.
The thing is, nowhere is this spelled out for the Administrator, other than a failrly opaque chart of alphanumeric npc ids and some cues in the descriptions of the various businesses and other locations in Sprechenhaltestelle. It needs to be sussed out by the Administrator with some fairly close reading.
I think there are different ways to experiment with the format. Not just the amount of text or information presented, but how it is presented and what type of rules it puts into action and how, what room is left for the DM to hone the setting, and so on. I certainly don't want to reinvent the format and make the game play completely different. Ultimately, I would like to be able to represent the dynamism of the setting and breathe some form of life into it that would be communicated to the DMs who read the stuff and empower them to then really play it as their own.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;586651That kind of thinking is pretty foreign with respect to published products, but it wasn't at all uncommon in modules published before, say, 1979 or thereabouts. Few modules or setting books were as terse as the notes from which Gary Gygax ran Castle Greyhawk, but in many cases the - and I don't like using this word because of all the baggage it carries, but it's late and I'm tired and I can't think of anything better - 'story' of the module is implied through decriptions of characters and places. Consider the hapless paladin Sir Runic Rump and his many nemeses within and without Tegel Manor, and the potential for intrigue with which the setting is imbued as a result.
If you begin with the expectation that a module is supposed to be the pieces of a 'story' to be assembled and manipulated by each refeee individually to create a unique experience, then what you include in that module and how you present it begins to look very different than if you are trying to create a readily replicable experience at table after table after table.
Yes.
I wouldn't want my own game materials to create a perfectly replicable experience over and over. I would want them to allow DMs to really grasp the setting and use it as though it was theirs. Find a way to help them visualize and inhabit the environment so they can role play it the way PCs role play their characters. I'd hope to help them make it their own and really have a good time with their own imaginations, not a polaroid picture of mine.
Quote from: Benoist;586965I couldn't help smiling when I read the discussion started by Zak S on Google plus that more or less could be summarized as "Jeez isn't the RPG Site a horrible place?" and having all the people, including James by the way, patting each other on the back to observe just how superior their moderation and social skills really are.
Combined with Zak's post on his blog explaining how G+ is awesome (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.ca/2012/09/the-future-of-talking-about-games.html) because if you suck (meaning, if you "bore people" in some fashion, i.e. if you stray too far away from the circle's accepted consensus/rule of the many) I can tune it out so this is the bestest community ever, I can't help but feel a sense of irony out of this whole thing.
Oh and apparently people criticizing other people who like G+ because they can turn it into the echo chamber they really want out of their gaming, which is, you know, exactly what Zak was talking about on his blog post, in essence, to me, are really horrible people prejudicing towards you, but if you then turn around to say that forums are cesspools of hate, it's cool, you just made a perfectly reasonable observation.
Talk about double standards.
Where is this discussion? Or do I have to "circle" Zak to read it?
The ironic thing is that I can pull up quite a few blog posts in the last few days about how forums are shit-tastic places full of trolls - but see, that's different than when forums have those types of sentiments; totally.
Oh, and Zac (or Zak - it seems to change from place to place so I don't know which you prefer) how exactly does playing a game with the "best GM" chosen by popular vote in an arena where the people voting are your buddies, prove anything exactly? That running a good game before a kangaroo court means a person is incapable of some minor variety of intellectual incestuousness?
The point (or at least my point) about the blogosphere/G+ OSR crowd wasn't that everyone involved were moronic GMs, it was that the blogosphere mostly split off from the established old-school community in 2008, has since grown in, and maintained, a significant degree of separation from that continuing pre-existing community (because, you know, forums are soooo uncouth, dirty and impolite), and yet in its bubble it sees itself as the essence of the OSR, only recalling the existence of the rabble when they take what you consider an ax out and grind it within your hearing range.
In other words, it is not your love of games, nor your ability to run them, but instead your myopic qualities, which lay the term of echo-chamber at your feet.
Well, that and you especially seem more keen in courting the crowd on the big purple than in the old-school boards, which only tells me that you are a man with something to sell who can count, but explains nothing about why you prefer to discuss things with people who share a common outlook.
Quote from: EOTB;587009Where is this discussion? Or do I have to "circle" Zak to read it?
The ironic thing is that I can pull up quite a few blog posts in the last few days about how forums are shit-tastic places full of trolls - but see, that's different than when forums have those types of sentiments; totally.
Oh, and Zac (or Zak - it seems to change from place to place so I don't know which you prefer) how exactly does playing a game with the "best GM" chosen by popular vote in an arena where the people voting are your buddies, prove anything exactly? That running a good game before a kangaroo court means a person is incapable of some minor variety of intellectual incestuousness?
The point (or at least my point) about the blogosphere/G+ OSR crowd wasn't that everyone involved were moronic GMs, it was that the blogosphere mostly split off from the established old-school community in 2008, has since grown in, and maintained, a significant degree of separation from that continuing pre-existing community (because, you know, forums are soooo uncouth, dirty and impolite), and yet in its bubble it sees itself as the essence of the OSR, only recalling the existence of the rabble when they take what you consider an ax out and grind it within your hearing range.
In other words, it is not your love of games, nor your ability to run them, but instead your myopic qualities, which lay the term of echo-chamber at your feet.
Well, that and you especially seem more keen in courting the crowd on the big purple than in the old-school boards, which only tells me that you are a man with something to sell who can count, but explains nothing about why you prefer to discuss things with people who share a common outlook.
I don't know what facts you think back any of that up or even what your specific beef with me is, but there is only one way to settle it:
GM Duel: 2 players of your choice, 2 of mine, 2 random players. Or a passel of totally random players.
(Not "my buddies" you read it wrong.)
Anyway: You GM them, I GM them. They vote.
Less complaining and guessing and accusing, more playing.
I will say these threads have lit a fire under James' ass. I just got another Kickstarter update, and a lot more stuff has moved into the written or playtested sections compared to only a month ago.
Quote from: Zak S;586923The motto is "Just Like All Other Game Forums Except You Can Play Games And Kent Isn't Here" which I think, really, sums up the appeal.
*
chortle-snort*
Quote from: Black Vulmea;587019*chortle-snort*
Kent IS a massive Zac stalker. It's a very weird thing and something it's best not to try and delve into.
Discussions here and other forums can get robust and down right rude but ultimately if you can put up some good ideas they will be respected.
Everyone thinks Kent is an arsehat but he actually posted something decent on secret doors and was responded to appropriately. Ditto for the Denners when they staged their brief invasion.
In short you have to earn respect on a forum and expect to be called on any crap you spew. Even a moderator like Benoist can attest to that!
Quote from: Fiasco;587031Kent IS a massive Zac stalker. It's a very weird thing and something it's best not to try and delve into.
Discussions here and other forums can get robust and down right rude but ultimately if you can put up some good ideas they will be respected.
Everyone thinks Kent is an arsehat but he actually posted something decent on secret doors and was responded to appropriately. Ditto for the Denners when they staged their brief invasion.
In short you have to earn respect on a forum and expect to be called on any crap you spew. Even a moderator like Benoist can attest to that!
It's a simple thing, really, like games:
Different places on the web are good for different things. And for different people with different ways of writing.
I look at the RPGsite and go "Oh look a thread--Black Vulmea and Mister Guignol mostly say what I'd say, that place looks sorted-- meanwhile everyone on Story-Games is completely nuts about orc-baby killing and nobody's holding down the common-sense position, let's see if any of them can explain their fucknuttery" then look over at grognardstxt and it's like "Wow, these people think descending armor class leads to assfucking babies, let's see how nuts this gets...". Big purple? "A newbie needs to know what the best retroclones are, let's tell them before the 4vengers rip the thread apart"...
And then if I have like some AP report, I got my blog.
And if I want a lot of answers fast: G+
Like everybody else in the fucking world.Except Kent, who has no friends, and so can't use G+.
Zak, Black Vulman and Fisto. Three fellas (and there are more) who can't let go of the fact that I look down on them and have told them so and I enjoyed the telling. Get over it lads, you have plenty of 'internet friendships' which by all accounts are important to you. As for me I value an 'internet friendship' at one onion.
No wonder you can't seem to figure where anyone's at.
You're looking down.
Have you tried contributing to a thread where you don't try to make yourself the centre of attention, little man?
...Potter!!!
Quote from: _kent_;587060Have you tried contributing to a thread where you don't try to make yourself the centre of attention, little man?
Have you?
You're the pixelbitching moron right?
Quote from: Benoist;587005I wouldn't want my own game materials to create a perfectly replicable experience over and over. I would want them to allow DMs to really grasp the setting and use it as though it was theirs. Find a way to help them visualize and inhabit the environment so they can role play it the way PCs role play their characters. I'd hope to help them make it their own and really have a good time with their own imaginations, not a polaroid picture of mine.
I think you just succinctly expressed exactly why I dislike metaplots.
Quote from: _kent_;587054Zak, Black Vulman and Fisto. Three fellas (and there are more) who can't let go of the fact that I look down on them and have told them so and I enjoyed the telling. Get over it lads, you have plenty of 'internet friendships' which by all accounts are important to you. As for me I value an 'internet friendship' at one onion.
You're a mediocrity with delusions of old school grandeur. We just call you on your petty grandstanding.
Your good opinion has no value and is certainly not worth cultivating.
Still, good effort with the secret doors. You actually managed to stay civil and didn't derail things with some deluded ego trip. There is hope for everyone.
Quote from: Zak S;586970Lack of contact between opposing points of view?
Isn't the whole point of Google+ that you simply ignore anyone you don't like by placing them in your "outbox"? At what point does your outbox shift from outright hostile people or "shitcock"ers to people who simply disagree with what the "inbox" says? If the internet has taught us anything, it will happen.
Quote from: Zak S;586970Lack of new ideas produced?
Define New. No, I'm serious. Most forums are discussion forums, not creative collaboration spaces, but there is a lot of design happening even on a contentious site like this one.
Quote from: Zak S;586970Lack of game sessions created or reported?
If you want to count only Play By Post/Message games on Google+ sure. The whole Hangouts thing (if that's what you meant) is comparing apples to oranges, don't you think?
Quote from: Zak S;5869702-A GMing duel (by which all disputes between anyone remotely cool should be decided). 2 players of yours, 2 of James' and 2 random souls go delving and play games with each of you (over skype or the dreaded Google +). Then the delvers vote on which they liked best. As many times as you like.
First of all, I'm in.
However, that's not what Ben was saying. He's not saying James isn't a good DM, he was saying that James was trying to recreate a megadungeon the way Gary ran Castle Greyhawk....Gary never published Castle Greyhawk. In other words, Dwimmermount began as something other than a publishing project.
James may run a mean Castle Greyhawk, but he seems to be having trouble designing and publishing a Rappan Athuk. Great GM and prolific game designer have nothing to do with one another.
Quote from: CRKrueger;587084A lot of things
Point is:
Define, in numbers
any metric you think is fair for measuring interesting non-incestuous conversation or collaboration and I will help you test it to see if G+ meets it. Anything. Whatever you think is valuable. Whatever, essentially, is being questioned here.
Basically an entire internet platform is being accused of being a giant circle jerk well: who knows? Define some desirable goal of internet conversation and let's test whether G+ meets it rather than hanging around pretending we can see the future.
This is science: someone has a hypothesis. Let's define an experiment and test it.
As for the contest:
Point is, if either party turns out to be a sucky GM, nothing they could possibly say ever about dungeon design matters.
If they turn out to be good, they have a much better chance of knowing what's what and should get some latitude--though it does, of course guarantee nothing.
Quote from: _kent_;587071You're the pixelbitching moron right?
Awww, is precious pissed off?
Quote from: CRKrueger;587084Isn't the whole point of Google+ that you simply ignore anyone you don't like by placing them in your "outbox"? At what point does your outbox shift from outright hostile people or "shitcock"ers to people who simply disagree with what the "inbox" says? If the internet has taught us anything, it will happen.
Sure there are people like that. And they will ignore everyone who doesn't 100% agree with them. But there's always going to be people who aren't like that.
Even this site has an Ignore list feature.
The tl;dr version - it's not about G+ as a tool, it's the high school atmosphere and the conformity factor. That, and your GM-contest tool is a bunch of crap. Alternate proposal made.
Quote from: Zak S;587016I don't know what facts you think back any of that up or even what your specific beef with me is,
I have no beef with you. I'm disagreeing with you. Disagreement does not equal beef. This is part of what I'm talking about. You're interpreting disagreement as a personal issue. Why? Are you used to getting lots of agreement of from those who say they like you?
Quote from: Zak S;587086Point is:
Define, in numbers any metric you think is fair for measuring interesting non-incestuous conversation or collaboration and I will help you test it to see if G+ meets it. Anything. Whatever you think is valuable. Whatever, essentially, is being questioned here.
First off, I'm a G+ supporter. I like G+, for gaming and otherwise. I don't use it much because I don't have much time after I go through my forums of interest, but no one is saying it is a worthless medium. But you are confusing "there seems to be people indicating they are using hammer in non-optimal ways" with "hammers are bad". So producing a bunch of tests to see if a hammer can pound a nail - what's the point?
So, here are some instances of what I am referring to from your blog (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.ca/2012/09/the-future-of-talking-about-games.html?zx=e543c444c5465c26).
QuoteIn simple terms: if you bore people, you're out, you can't even read the good stuff any more, much less comment.
So, to be able to participate effectively (or passively) in the community, you have to post stuff that the big names find interesting - note I am not saying this means
expected or simply a
paraphrasing of what a poster has already seen. So, so far, criteria #1
just to participate is the ability to be fun/entertaining/original; however you want to define "anti-boring". Are there other criteria?
Quotetrolls and backbiters die fast
I don't think anyone could complain about losing trolls. At best they are unintentionally funny if they are trolling someone you think is a fuckwad, but I agree that's not worth the signal to noise reduction they bring. But "backbiter" is separate from a troll. Backbiter is defined as (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/backbite)
"(one who) say(s) mean or spiteful things about (as one not present)"
So, in addition to being interesting, to meaningfully participate in the G+ circles that are adopting the norms you are discussing, you can't be considered to have said mean things about them in venues where they are not present. However, what one person thinks is mean is not an objective thing - reference your wondering what "beef" I have with you where there is none.
Ironically, this is impossible in a forum. If you say something mean on a forum, it's there for everyone to see. No backbiting. Since this thread has about 35K views, I'm assuming that most of the G+ circles have seen it to discuss it (http://dreamsinthelichhouse.blogspot.com/2012/09/grinding-axe.html). But there is apparently a thread on G+ where some negative statements about the forum, and thus the people who constitute it, are being made without their being able to see them. So it isn't that backbiters are shunned, it's that backbiters of the in-group are shunned while the in-group can backbite to its collective heart's content. I vaguely remember shit like this, but it's been about 25 years.
(Note that by linking to Beedo's board I am not saying he is backbiting anyone in the discussed G+ thread - he's just one of the few blogs I have on my reading list - it's just an objective example that this thread is being read.)
So how about it Zak, why not open up that G+ thread so we can see if the no backbiting rule is universal? You want an objective examination of G+, let's start with that.
Continuing on with the examination of what it takes to be part of the G+ community, a definition of troll is given:
QuoteNow trolls and jackwads all have some things in common:
-They bore people and get blocked.
-They have an insane compulsion to talk even when no-one's listening, cares, or gets anything out of it.
-They do not consider themselves trolls or jackwads. Or at least not so much that they can understand why nobody wants to talk to them.
Well, this is interesting. Boring again. Heaven help people who lack wit or flair on G+. And talking is an issue - don't do too much of it! And finally, G+ trolls are quite unlike the regular garden variety internet troll because they are
unconsciously trolling! I thought that trolling meant you were purposely being a vicious, attention-diverting dipshit, but no, these are not the people we're talking about after all. We're talking about people who...what? Aren't cool enough? Aren't on-topic enough?
Oh, and the in-box versus out-box thing:
QuoteYou need to have an "inbox" and an "outbox." Anyone who posts cat pictures goes in the "outbox" and they can read your stuff but you never read posts in your "outbox" unless you're really bored. Just log on and read the "inbox"
Yes, even better - there can be scores of people who think they are a part of the community, be instead of a community member they get the privilege of being an
audience. Fan-fucking-tastic. How about it, all you shadow-readers of this thread from the lands of google? How do you feel about the fact that while many of the biggies in the community care nothing for what you have to say, they do not want to lose you as a pair of eyeballs who can read what
they have to say? Does that make you feel warm and cozy? Have any of the biggies personally commented on the topics you originate? If not, you might not be in their VIP circles, but at least you remain in their marketing ones.
Dude, this community that you are shaping (as opposed to G+ as a tool) keeps sounding
better and better.
That's it for the actual posts, let's see if there are any additional criteria in the comments:
QuoteBig fan of all or nothing moderation. Annoying people deserve to suffer eternally for their crime.
So annoying is included now. Given the importance of making a great first impression on G+ so you don't get dumped into the outbox, or worse, the cat-circle, heaven helps someone who tries a bit too hard at first so as to jump through all the other fucking hoops. That's not a fairly common human trait.
Or, as a non-Zak commentator looks at it:
QuoteAnd yes, I really think there needs to be some way of advertising to the greater Internet about the G+ RPG community. Something to create a steady (or even spikey) influx of people.
Obviously those people will get community-culled and shuffled into catcircle, but once the filtering is done: Net gain.
This doesn't say: smug bastard with a superiority complex: to you? Fuck - you know the best way to make RPGs grow as a hobby? Make enthusiasts subject themselves to the cat-box test! If they fail and find themselves being ignored while simultaneously bombarded with reviews of interesting PDFs that community members have for sale, they will find gaming to be the positive experience necessary to anchor them in the hobby. This isn't about a beautiful people strategy
at all.
And then, the pièce de résistance
QuoteHOLY FUCK
I didn't realize this until today when I saw it echoing around the chamber, but this is the (accidental and not James fault) first shot in the new I Hate You Because You Use G+ wars.
Awesome.
This is great!
Let the carnival of fact-abuse begin!
Fact abuse? Physician, heal thyself. No one is hating anyone for using G+. No one is saying G+ is a worthless tool.
There is no war. (Some) people, myself included, are saying that you are creating an in-crowd where there is tremendous peer pressure to say things that the establishment likes, be non-confrontational to their ideas if you disagree with them, and that it's a lot like RPG-community high school.
I.e., your great fucking model has some considerable downside to it. Probably, no one has mentioned this to you yet outside of tepid and qualified comments from the sideline, and so it is news. This still does not mean that I have a problem or beef with you, it means that I think this experiment is not, overall, better for the gaming community and also that many of the complaints expressed about forums are hypocritical at best.
Quote from: Zak S;587016but there is only one way to settle it:
GM Duel: 2 players of your choice, 2 of mine, 2 random players. Or a passel of totally random players.
(Not "my buddies" you read it wrong.)
Anyway: You GM them, I GM them. They vote.
Less complaining and guessing and accusing, more playing.
Quote from: Zak S;587086As for the contest:
Point is, if either party turns out to be a sucky GM, nothing they could possibly say ever about dungeon design matters.
If they turn out to be good, they have a much better chance of knowing what's what and should get some latitude--though it does, of course guarantee nothing.
No, point is that if you put 2 great GMs in a room and someone finishes 2nd, it does not mean that they are either a sucky GM or that "nothing they could possibly ever say about dungeon design matters". But this is an interesting example of your mob-vote-as-an-entrance/credibility-requirement philosophy. I'm also guessing this was an idea that was spawned on G+, that everybody told you it was the awesome, and no one pointed out its weaknesses or how objectively stupid it was at proving anything. Which in itself proves the point of the other side of the conversation.
So tell you what, Zak. Here's a little social experiment. I'll circle you on G+ and you put me in your VIP circles for say, 6 months, including this thread that Benoist is talking about. I won't even post to the thread, no matter if something I see otherwise would have me tapping on my keyboard. I'll be a positive member of your little group, leave my pre-conceptions at the door, and mainly just observe to see if the conformity factor there is high. Because observing a population in its native habitat is a time-honored scientific method as well you know.
And if I'm off base and G+ makes everything better, gets rid of the shit, and incubates a creativity explosion like nothing else, we can come back and jointly post about it and I'll back you up 100%.
Game?
Quote from: EOTB;587128Alotta stuff
1. I don't know what thread you and Benoist are spazzing about. I don't have a secret conclave.
2. You want to see what I post on G+? Same as everybody else, same as Benoist--just add me and I'll add you back. No problem. (You can also read all my threads to check the "secret conclave" theory.)
3. Objective metric, not "guy who already has a chip on his shoulder ( "I'm also guessing this was an idea that was spawned on G+, that everybody told you it was the awesome, and no one pointed out its weaknesses or how objectively stupid it was at proving anything" ) decides whether he likes it or not."
Because that's what we already have: broad brush complaints rather than objective fact.
But if you want to actually talk about this theory
describe an objective metric .
Describe a thing that you would expect a non-circle jerk community to produce
now. Then going forward we'll see if it pops up.
Quote from: kythri;586868Boy, I don't know if I'll be able to handle waiting for the utter tripe produced from such a circle-jerk echo chamber.
Hum. I think that the echo-chamber phenomenon is bound to happen as soon as there is someone (mod, admin, users with ILs) who can decide that only a certain kind of opinions are acceptable.
Said this, I have observed lots of disagreements in discussions there. What I haven't seen (yet) is the trolling I have seen here, or in RPG.net, or similar places. So far, the experience has been quite positive.
Quote from: _kent_;586873A forum is a football field.
Google+ is a massage clinic.
It sounds to me like the "this is better because this is more manly because here you can be insulted to everyone's content" argument. Which is not a very good argument, to be honest.
I like the moderation here, and I think that you can find many good ideas in a forum like this. I have also said many times that is very hard to discuss certain things (specially) D&D without having it become a hatefest plagued with edition warriors headhunting, and seeing how even some usually level-headed posters become raving maniacs. I think that the signal to noise ratio of a forum gets lower and lower as the old hates fester and grow, and you can see the same guys having the same discussion every other thread. This has diminished my enjoyment of this forum, and has made me stop posting altogether in RPG.net. I don't usually post in story-games.com because, seriously, I don't understand people there.
I am not going to say that G+ is the holy grail that provides the perfect debate, but this far the experience has been really satisfactory.
Quote from: VectorSigma;586966I will vouch that my experience on G+ has been neither an echo chamber nor a circle jerk thus far. Some people are perfectly capable of having productive conversations with people; even people with whom they disagree on some things. If a modicum of civility and a love of gaming looks like a circle-jerk to you, Kent, that's your pathology, not mine. That being said, I have encountered some gamers on G+ that I ended up blocking or generally ignoring because they can't shut up about politics or religion or whatever; that's no different than putting someone on 'ignore' on a forum, I suppose.
Emphasis mine.
Also, edition-warring is no love of gaming. Telling people about the TRUE MANLY WAY OF ROLEPLAYING is not love of gaming. And so it goes.
Quote from: Benoist;586965Combined with Zak's post on his blog explaining how G+ is awesome (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.ca/2012/09/the-future-of-talking-about-games.html) because if you suck (meaning, if you "bore people" in some fashion, i.e. if you stray too far away from the circle's accepted consensus/rule of the many) I can tune it out so this is the bestest community ever, I can't help but feel a sense of irony out of this whole thing.
Oh and apparently people criticizing other people who like G+ because they can turn it into the echo chamber they really want out of their gaming, which is, you know, exactly what Zak was talking about on his blog post, in essence, to me, are really horrible people prejudicing towards you, but if you then turn around to say that forums are cesspools of hate, it's cool, you just made a perfectly reasonable observation.
Talk about double standards.
How is this so much better? This place has had many threads devoted to shitting upon people who posts at the forge, story-games, RPG.net, The Gaming Den and many other places. Ironically, many of those threads have devolved into forum members bitchslapping each others. How exactly is this place so so much better when the threads most visited seem to be invariably threads about edition wars, or about RPG.net, or shit like that? The thread with most replies ever was the Wizard-Fighter balance bullshit, which was just a pathetic amount of edition warring, cross-forums bitching, and general asshattery. 4,486 replies, by far the most popular thread here.
Quote from: Zak S;587016I don't know what facts you think back any of that up or even what your specific beef with me is, but there is only one way to settle it:
GM Duel: 2 players of your choice, 2 of mine, 2 random players. Or a passel of totally random players.
(Not "my buddies" you read it wrong.)
Anyway: You GM them, I GM them. They vote.
Less complaining and guessing and accusing, more playing.
What the fuck does this have to do with Google+ being the "hands down absolute best" place to discuss RPGs? Sure, you can play a game via the Hangout feature's video chat, that's great.
You claim there's been some sort of "mass immigration" to Google+, which implies that folks have left fora en masse for Google+.
You've stated that this mass exodus includes "most well-known game designers" and that they can and do simply block from reading anyone they choose, on a whim.
You then state that fora will get worse, because they're populated by folks that aren't part of the Google+ clique, and therefore, nobody wants to hear from them.
This is what makes the Google+ circles a circle-jerk, and results in the echo chamber - a bunch of self-congratulatory horseshit amongst, supposedly, "most well-known game designers."
Well, fantastic. If the "well-known game designers" keep this up, they'll relegate themselves to irrelevance, because who's going to hear them?
And, once again, how does playing a game via Google+ back any of this nonsense up? What would this serve to prove? That because you enjoyed playing a game via the Google+ knock-off of Skype, the quality of game discussion is better?
Riiiiight.
Here's a question for the Google+ proponents:
When I come to a forum like The RPGsite, I have a reasonable expectation that, if I enter the "Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Main Forum," I'll be greeted with discussion about RPGs.
Not discussions about politics. Not discussions about novels/fiction. Not discussions about comic books. Not discussions about the 25th anniversary of The Princess Bride.
Now, I'm not necessarily saying that I don't want to partake in such discussions (some I may, some I definitely don't) - but, I definitely don't want to discuss the 2012 US Presidential campaign here.
I've got a handful of game designers folks in my circles, and several of them won't shut the fuck up about this stuff.
How does one filter this? As far as I can tell, this is an all-or-nothing feed. If I want to hear what Designer A has to say about gaming, I've also got to hear what he/she has to say about their vote for President, and every little other random bit of off-topic crap they want to blast out to everyone.
As a vector for discussion, this sucks ass.
Quote from: kythri;587141Here's a question for the Google+ proponents:
When I come to a forum like The RPGsite, I have a reasonable expectation that, if I enter the "Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Main Forum," I'll be greeted with discussion about RPGs.
Not discussions about politics. Not discussions about novels/fiction. Not discussions about comic books. Not discussions about the 25th anniversary of The Princess Bride.
Now, I'm not necessarily saying that I don't want to partake in such discussions (some I may, some I definitely don't) - but, I definitely don't want to discuss the 2012 US Presidential campaign here.
I've got a handful of game designers folks in my circles, and several of them won't shut the fuck up about this stuff.
How does one filter this? As far as I can tell, this is an all-or-nothing feed. If I want to hear what Designer A has to say about gaming, I've also got to hear what he/she has to say about their vote for President, and every little other random bit of off-topic crap they want to blast out to everyone.
As a vector for discussion, this sucks ass.
I understand what you say and that, indeed, is unfortunate.
G+ is a tool. It can be used in an efficient or inefficient manner. And thing is, it depends on the emitter, not on the receiver. Same as a messageboard.
What I do is to think before sending a message: who is going to be interested? If I have you in my RPG circle, you will only get from me RPG stuff.
Also, you can decide if you want the messages from someone to appear in your timeline or not.
I think the fact people use their real names on G+ encourages better behaviour.
That said, I've used it and I just don't really get it.
Quote from: Imperator;587137Emphasis mine.
Also, edition-warring is no love of gaming. Telling people about the TRUE MANLY WAY OF ROLEPLAYING is not love of gaming. And so it goes.
I doubt you'd ever catch me edition-warring, Ramon. Some folks, yes. Most? Not that I've seen.
(Also, why don't I have you circled on +? We must rectify that.)
Quote from: kythri;587141Here's a question for the Google+ proponents:
I've got a handful of game designers folks in my circles, and several of them won't shut the fuck up about this stuff.
How does one filter this?
As a vector for discussion, this sucks ass.
There are some G+ users who believe in their heart of hearts that everything they post should be tagged Public, and thus broadcast for all to hear.
They are wrong.
The 'circles' are supposed to be both like RSS-feeds (I control what I read) AND like broadcast lanes (I control who sees this post of mine). Many users do this and are conscientious about it so as not to drown their gamer-pals in political shit (and presumably they don't drown their political-buddies in dice jokes either).
I don't know who decided that 'Public' was the way to go - and it might have something to do with "fighting the idea that + is a ghost town" or some crap, but it's a pain in the ass.
For anybody who's using G+, or looking to try it out, this link should go to my profile - please feel free to add me. I only do gaming-talk.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/111470222834402043164/posts
It's weird that some of you guys think G+ is an echo-chamber where everyone agrees all the time and everybody strokes each other's egos. My experience has not been at all like that. People disagree about things all the time there; sometimes things even get heated. However, unlike here, it usually doesn't escalate to people calling each other shitcocks, so if that's your marker for a "good discussion about games," you might be disappointed.
So:
Very much unlike a forum, I have to rely on the poster to remain on-topic and target who they're sending their message to.
Very much unlike a forum, there's no categorization of messages, so if they place me in a circle for RPG stuff, and target messages to that specific circle, I'll still see everything they target to that circle.
Very much unlike a forum, if I don't wish to read a particular thread any longer, but people still wish to discuss it, if I'm in their circle that they're broadcasting to, I'm shit-out-of-luck and I get it all still, with my only option to somehow hide those users or the entire circle itself (not the subject at hand) from my stream.
How the holy hell is this "better" than a forum? I mean, I can see it being nice for a small group of people, but once you pass a certain critical mass of users, it's just completely unwieldy.
Quote from: VectorSigma;587155I doubt you'd ever catch me edition-warring, Ramon. Some folks, yes. Most? Not that I've seen.
(Also, why don't I have you circled on +? We must rectify that.)
I was not talking about you, and if I gave that impression then I apologize. I added you, I go by my real name there :)
Quote from: kythri;587173So:
Very much unlike a forum, I have to rely on the poster to remain on-topic and target who they're sending their message to.
Very much unlike a forum, there's no categorization of messages, so if they place me in a circle for RPG stuff, and target messages to that specific circle, I'll still see everything they target to that circle.
Very much unlike a forum, if I don't wish to read a particular thread any longer, but people still wish to discuss it, if I'm in their circle that they're broadcasting to, I'm shit-out-of-luck and I get it all still, with my only option to somehow hide those users or the entire circle itself (not the subject at hand) from my stream.
How the holy hell is this "better" than a forum? I mean, I can see it being nice for a small group of people, but once you pass a certain critical mass of users, it's just completely unwieldy.
You can unsubscribe from a thread, and there are several tools that allow you to control the info you get. It is not harder than facebook and Twitter and, to my mind, it has the best of both worlds.
Again, it may be a tool you don't like. That is OK.
Quote from: kythri;587173So:
Very much unlike a forum, I have to rely on the poster to remain on-topic and target who they're sending their message to.
Incorrect. You can control what you see, who you get messages from, and can opt out of a thread by muting it.
QuoteVery much unlike a forum, there's no categorization of messages, so if they place me in a circle for RPG stuff, and target messages to that specific circle, I'll still see everything they target to that circle.
You can mute people who post things to their rpg circle that bore you.
QuoteVery much unlike a forum, if I don't wish to read a particular thread any longer, but people still wish to discuss it, if I'm in their circle that they're broadcasting to, I'm shit-out-of-luck and I get it all still, with my only option to somehow hide those users or the entire circle itself (not the subject at hand) from my stream.
Incorrect. You can mute threads, people, etc.
Quote from: EOTB;587009Where is this discussion? Or do I have to "circle" Zak to read it?
The reason I haven't quoted it directly is because it's Limited. You basically have to "circle" Zak to be able to see the conversations. There's also the conversation on G+ about Stuart's post that followed Tankar's Tavern post of the link to said update on his blog. And a bunch of others.
QuoteHOLY FUCK
I didn't realize this until today when I saw it echoing around the chamber, but this is the (accidental and not James fault) first shot in the new I Hate You Because You Use G+ wars.
Awesome.
This is great!
Let the carnival of fact-abuse begin!
Wow. I have to tell you, reading this after coming back from the funeral of an Elder of the Nuxalk Nation yesterday and spending the evening brainstorming on my game... this kind of puts it into perspective.
First, you have people looking at the Dwimmermount delays and talking about it. Some are more loud mouths, swear like sailors, politically incorrect and/or confrontational than others, but basically we talk about it and... the mere fact of talking about it is somehow "badwrong" and makes us "bad people".
Then we come to the discussion of Dwimmermount itself, where rational arguments are made back and forth concerning the approach James took to the project itself (which is nothing new, it's been discussed before), and once again, somehow it's "hate" and "badwrong" and "OMG won't you accept my pissing contest on G+ like it's going to prove something nyah nyah nyah", schoolyard style.
Then we talk about G+ and Zak's pretty surprising rave about how it's great you can tune people out and have a who's who that crafts its own little echo chamber away from the badwrong forums which will surely get even worse because they suck and are really, really bad. Words are exchanged, there's criticism of the hypocrisy of it all, the self-congratulating that's going on simultaneously on G+, which basically means -to me- there's no good faith involved in the discussion other than "I'll show them these badwrong people who happen to ... DISAGREE with us Kool Kids of the G+ circles!", and somehow that's "HOLY FUCK THAT IS THE START OF THE
WAAAAAR!"
LOL.
No. Seriously. I am Laughing.Out.Loud. here. Indulge me. I had a pretty good reminder of what to really care about yesterday: what good things people may give to one another, what real hurt, not faint outrage, looks really like up close and personal. I have to laugh this thing up, here. The people who are taking internet conversation WAY too seriously, to the point of construing criticism and disagreement as Declarations of War, are not the ones we think, here.
I like G+. I use it. I read your stuff. I own Vornheim and like some aspects of it, dislike others. I have James' Cursed Chateau and could see myself recycling it for my game. I've stated that I think James can come up with a decent, even a good dungeon with Dwimmermount. I'm no enemy here. I happen to have opinions, points of views, doubts and I share them. I criticize, yes. Oh yes do I criticize. But to construe this as a "hatefest" and a "WAR" holy crap. You guys need to chill. Seriously.
Quote from: Imperator;587137How is this so much better?
I haven't made the claim the RPG Site is any better.
Some of the people circling each other on G+ have made the claim that their community is much better than all the forums and that forums are awful places full of awful people and that it'll only get worse the more G+ becomes this awesome paradise of like-minded people who tune the undesirables out.
Quote from: noisms;587152I think the fact people use their real names on G+ encourages better behaviour.
I use my real name here. I'm not the only one.
Alright gents. Now you can go back to your defense of the OSR party line that
Must. Be. Defended. At. All. Costs. Then make sure you go back on G+ to have another helping of that warm fuzzy feeling of belonging you derive from telling each other what horrible people we are. Make yourselves feel good.
I'll be in the back mapping some shit in the meantime.
Peace.
Quote from: Benoist;587226"I didn't realize this until today when I saw it echoing around the chamber, but this is the (accidental and not James fault) first shot in the new I Hate You Because You Use G+ wars."
Some are more loud mouths, swear like sailors, politically incorrect and/or confrontational than others, but basically we talk about it and... the mere fact of talking about it is somehow "badwrong" and makes us "bad people".
You're so vain you thought that was about you.
Actually I wasn't referring to therpgsite. Like I said, it was multiple places on the web. Alexis' recent blog being the first one I can think of.
Quote from: Benoist;587226The reason I haven't quoted it directly is because it's Limited. You basically have to "circle" Zak to be able to see the conversations.
I still don't know what you're talking about. Read the headline of this thread that made you sad, then type the words from it that offended you onto the keyboard in front of you, then it will appear on your computer screen, then press "submt reply" then I will know what you're on about and I will dig it up.
Quote from: Zak S;587230Alexis' recent blog being the first one I can think of.
I dropped Alexis from my blogroll after the third time he blocked one of my comments to his posts.
Quote from: Zak S;587230You're so vain you thought that was about you.
Actually I wasn't referring to therpgsite. Like I said, it was multiple places on the web. Alexis' recent blog being the first one I can think of.
Come on, Zak. Don't take me for a moron, please. You know I've circled you on G+ and read the posts. That I read your blog posts - I've linked to it earlier. Come on and be honest here. You made blanket statements, have been playing with fire here and running back to G+ to get some pats in the back, then you act like a child taunting people with pissing contests of all things when you get caught with your fingers in the jam, and now you want me to take you seriously when you try to backtrack and say things like "I wasn't making blanket statements, if you feel I was insulting, that's because you're so vain!"
Come on now. You fucked up and have behaved like an idiot full of yourself. Then you doubled-down on it by making claims we were crazy people and this meant war blah blah, all the while having your fun with your friends barfing on the RPG Site and the like. Seriously. Own it and move on.
There isn't one single statement I've made here that I can't back up with facts.
You, on the other hand, assume that because your points of contact with what I write are, at the moment:
-this thread
-what I post on G+,
and
-my blog
That everything I said about people on the web is in response to what happens at the site where you happen to be hanging out. It isn't.
And with each post you insinuate new things I allegedly am doing and thinking, rather than addressing the real issue:
If you think G+ is a useless echo chamber and serves no real purpose, use your fingers to type a thing that is a description of what you think a good RPG discussion forum should do. Then we will prove or disprove that G+ does it.
If you don't want to do that this is all just some personal "Zak did this Zak did that" motive-assumption with no evidence which everyone who doesn't interact with me and doesn't want to will believe and everyone who does won't and, in the end, neither of them care about. It's what BT used to do before he got kicked.
Again:
If you think G+ is a useless echo chamber and serves no real purpose, use your fingers to type a thing that is a description of a measurable result you think a good RPG discussion forum should produce . Describe it in words or numbers. Then we will prove or disprove that G+ does it.
Quote from: Benoist;587237all the while having your fun with your friends barfing on the RPG Site and the like.
The crux of the matter. "Somebody might have said something bad about therpgsite, circle the wagons against those G+ meanies!"
Seriously, look at the way people talk at this site. "Denner Invasion," "storygame swine," the "look what is happening on grog.txt" posts, there is a thread about what people are saying on the Big Purple on the front page. This would be a much better forum without the paranoia and constant looking over the collective shoulder for enemies of the state.
Quote from: misterguignol;587245The crux of the matter. "Somebody might have said something bad about therpgsite, circle the wagons against those G+ meanies!"
Actually, it's not. If I was going around hunting down criticism of the RPG Site on the web because I just somehow wouldn't be able to take it, I'll be spending day after day on it because it never stops.
I have not made the claim the RPG Site is any better.
You guys made the claim that your circle-jerking is superior. And you are the guys who are going on about how the badwrong people are crazy and going to war and stuff, how this here is a "hatefest" and the like.
The guys who are taking this conversation to incredible extremes aren't the ones we think.
Quote from: Benoist;587251You guys made the claim that your circle-jerking is superior. And you are the guys who are going on about how the badwrong people are crazy and going to war and stuff, how this here is a "hatefest" and the like.
The guys who are taking this conversation to incredible extremes aren't the ones we think.
Wait, where did I say that? I've said literally nothing about "going to war," "hatefests," etc. Can you point to where I've said that? I think you're flat-out lying right there.
I will say that I think G+ is superior for the ways I like to talk about games. If I post gameable content here it doesn't get much comment or critique because people would rather shout moistly at each other about swine and AD&D being the One True Gygaxian Expression or whatever the hobbyhorse of the week is.
If I post the same stuff on G+ or my blog I get good and interesting feedback (both positive and negative) but it's far more constructive.
For me, the signal to noise ratio is simply better. Your mileage may vary.
Quote from: misterguignol;587253Wait, where did I say that? I've said literally nothing about "going to war," "hatefests," etc.
Okay. So you would disagree this thread is a hate fest or that people here on this thread are going to war against anybody or anything.
Did I read that right?
Quote from: Benoist;587255Okay. So you would disagree this thread is a hate fest or that people here are going to war against anybody or anything.
Did I read that right?
Man, I don't even know what a hatefest is; honestly, for this site, so far the conversation has been tame. Practically tea and crumpets.
I definitely don't think anyone here is going to war against anybody or anything. It's not like anybody here has a goal that they can "win," right? G+ is in no danger of being shut down by people who think it's a circle-jerk, therpgsite is in no danger of that either.
So, no, I'm not seeing it.
Quote from: misterguignol;587257Man, I don't even know what a hatefest is; honestly, for this site, so far the conversation has been tame. Practically tea and crumpets.
I definitely don't think anyone here is going to war against anybody or anything. It's not like anybody here has a goal that they can "win," right? G+ is in no danger of being shut down by people who think it's a circle-jerk, therpgsite is in no danger of that either.
So, no, I'm not seeing it.
Okay. We're good.
Quote from: Imperator;587191You can unsubscribe from a thread, and there are several tools that allow you to control the info you get. It is not harder than facebook and Twitter and, to my mind, it has the best of both worlds.
But, for the sake of this debate, we've not been arguing that Google+ is better or worse than Facebook or Twitter for RPG discussion. It's been specifically posited that Google+ is "absolute hands down better" than fora for RPG discussion.
Quote from: Imperator;587191Again, it may be a tool you don't like. That is OK.
And if you prefer it, that's OK too. I've just yet to see any kind of exposition beyond "on Google+ I can block people I don't like so that I can't see them, or they can't see me" to explain why it's better than the fora people seek to replace.
I mean, if that's your metric for what makes a discussion medium better, well, bully for you, I guess.
I wonder how many people would support a kickstarter for an RPg that I eventually plan to release for free online.
Quote from: kythri;587259And if you prefer it, that's OK too. I've just yet to see any kind of exposition beyond "on Google+ I can block people I don't like so that I can't see them, or they can't see me" to explain why it's better than the fora people seek to replace
These are the reasons I posted above:
QuoteI will say that I think G+ is superior for the ways I like to talk about games. If I post gameable content here it doesn't get much comment or critique because people would rather shout moistly at each other about swine and AD&D being the One True Gygaxian Expression or whatever the hobbyhorse of the week is.
If I post the same stuff on G+ or my blog I get good and interesting feedback (both positive and negative) but it's far more constructive.
For me, the signal to noise ratio is simply better. Your mileage may vary.
Quote from: misterguignol;587199Incorrect. You can control what you see, who you get messages from, and can opt out of a thread by muting it.
So, again, VERY MUCH UNLIKE A FORUM, I have to rely on the poster remaining on-topic and targeting who they send their messages to.
If they don't do that, my only options are, essentially, blocking them. Yes, I can selectively block a message, but if the signal-to-noise ratio is horrible, I'm either spending all day muting their threads that show up in my stream, or blocking them.
Quote from: misterguignol;587199You can mute people who post things to their rpg circle that bore you.
So, again, very much unlike a forum, there's no categorization of messages. If I want to read what the poster has to say about RPG stuff, I have to wade through all of their unrelated horseshit.
Quote from: misterguignol;587199Incorrect. You can mute threads, people, etc.
So, I can mute a particular thread, and, then, what? Not see it ever again? Or can I unmute it later to catch up? How do I find it once it's muted?
Either way, this is in no way superior to the layout of most subject-specific fora, and requires far more hands-on management of everyone's spew of data for me to get what I want out of it. I have to actively filter off-topic crap from people who's on-topic crap I want to read, or I have to just swear off of them altogether.
Quote from: kythri;587268So, again, VERY MUCH UNLIKE A FORUM, I have to rely on the poster remaining on-topic and targeting who they send their messages to.
If they don't do that, my only options are, essentially, blocking them. Yes, I can selectively block a message, but if the signal-to-noise ratio is horrible, I'm either spending all day muting their threads that show up in my stream, or blocking them.
So, again, very much unlike a forum, there's no categorization of messages. If I want to read what the poster has to say about RPG stuff, I have to wade through all of their unrelated horseshit.
So, I can mute a particular thread, and, then, what? Not see it ever again? Or can I unmute it later to catch up? How do I find it once it's muted?
Either way, this is in no way superior to the layout of most subject-specific fora, and requires far more hands-on management of everyone's spew of data for me to get what I want out of it. I have to actively filter off-topic crap from people who's on-topic crap I want to read, or I have to just swear off of them altogether.
99% of the people I interact with there only post about game stuff I'm interested in, and I let the other 1% slide.
Sorry you like old tech, I guess?
Quote from: Benoist;587226First, you have people looking at the Dwimmermount delays and talking about it. Some are more loud mouths, swear like sailors, politically incorrect and/or confrontational than others, but basically we talk about it and... the mere fact of talking about it is somehow "badwrong" and makes us "bad people".
I don't think anyone has said anything about people here being terrible persons. I think that some people over there prefer the discussions they get, and how those discussions have a lesser chance of turning into a flame about, mostly, bullshit.
Quote"I'll show them these badwrong people who happen to ... DISAGREE with us Kool Kids of the G+ circles!", and somehow that's "HOLY FUCK THAT IS THE START OF THE WAAAAAR!"
LOL.
Dude, you know I like you and I respect you, and I find baffling that someone who has become such an edition warrior can find something to criticize even if that was what Zak was saying (which I don't see).
QuoteI have to laugh this thing up, here. The people who are taking internet conversation WAY too seriously, to the point of construing criticism and disagreement as Declarations of War, are not the ones we think, here.
Dude, you are a mod in a messageboard built around the very idea of INTERNET WARZ BEING VERY IMPORTANT. You get into fits of Internet rage about what other people do at their tables. If you find this ridiculous, I do not know what to say.
QuoteSome of the people circling each other on G+ have made the claim that their community is much better than all the forums and that forums are awful places full of awful people and that it'll only get worse the more G+ becomes this awesome paradise of like-minded people who tune the undesirables out.
What I have read is that forums are far less effective than G+ on producing conversations with great signal/noise ratio. And what I have read is that Zak thinks that the tools of a social network can be more effective that a forum's when it comes to dealing witht people who only want to take swipes at others, start the Nth Edition war, or just plain troll.
And that is the truth. You do not need to be an elite to be a ble to read and take part in the conversation. I am no game designer, I don't have a blog to which I post regularly lots of awesome ideas, and I've had no problem reading or taking part in conversations, and given that I am not a raging jackass I don't see how this is going to change.
Quote from: misterguignol;587245The crux of the matter. "Somebody might have said something bad about therpgsite, circle the wagons against those G+ meanies!"
Seriously, look at the way people talk at this site. "Denner Invasion," "storygame swine," the "look what is happening on grog.txt" posts, there is a thread about what people are saying on the Big Purple on the front page. This would be a much better forum without the paranoia and constant looking over the collective shoulder for enemies of the state.
That is what I see. I don't understand how so many people can't get over the fact they were banned from RPG.net, or that Tangency is full of stupid people, or shit like that. Years after their bannings happened. TheRPGPundit fostered a war mindset since the beginning that goes deeply here. Even when there was never any threat to anyone.
Quote from: misterguignol;587253I will say that I think G+ is superior for the ways I like to talk about games. If I post gameable content here it doesn't get much comment or critique because people would rather shout moistly at each other about swine and AD&D being the One True Gygaxian Expression or whatever the hobbyhorse of the week is.
If I post the same stuff on G+ or my blog I get good and interesting feedback (both positive and negative) but it's far more constructive.
For me, the signal to noise ratio is simply better. Your mileage may vary.
I have to say that this phenomenon seems to be restricted to D&D and everything D&D and OSR-related. Every thread I have started on other topics have usually received useful answers.
Quote from: kythri;587259I mean, if that's your metric for what makes a discussion medium better, well, bully for you, I guess.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, then.
Quote from: Imperator;587289Dude, you know I like you and I respect you...
I'll keep it at that. You know I like you and respect you too.
I just don't want to argue when you haven't been involved yourself.
Quote from: misterguignol;58726999% of the people I interact with there only post about game stuff I'm interested in, and I let the other 1% slide.
Sorry you like old tech, I guess?
The tech has nothing to do with it.
The structure of the tech does.
I've got a couple dozen folks on Google+, and more than a handful of those are the "well-known designer" types.
Two of those constantly spew out non-game-related stuff or just constantly repost stuff from other people.
Granted, that's only two out of 25-ish folks, but still - it's not a medium conducive to open discussion about a specific topic with a wide diversity of folks.
I'm about ready to remove the two ever-spewing folks from my circles. If Google+ were the only way to hear what they had to say because they bought into the tripe that it's the only place to be, well, it'd suck to not see what they had to say about gaming - but if the alternative is to see the occasional gaming post amongst their proselytizing and campaigning for all of the non-game-related stuff? Then so be it. It's not as if I'm interested in them for their non-game opinions anyways.
Quote from: Imperator;587137I think that the signal to noise ratio of a forum gets lower and lower as the old hates fester and grow, and you can see the same guys having the same discussion every other thread.
I don't think the 'signal to noise' observation is as important on a forum as is made out.
Noise occludes sounds or signals by being ineradicable and coincident but I have no difficulty scanning past the colourful avatars of people who bore me or repeat themselves in a forum discussion and simply read posts that may be interesting. Each post is pristine and unaffected by those around it if the author so chooses. I agree it is harder to jump into a thread and find out what's going on if there is irrelevant or hysterical banter within but threads are most often read from the start and I personally don't have trouble reading what I want. In addition in principle I don't believe in censoring or banning people I consider foolish, sometimes they can surprise you.
I believe the perception that a thread is noisy arises because people are concerned that *others* are being distracted by the irrelevant posts.
I read your posts because I think you are fair if not enlightened.
Quote from: kythri;587268Either way, this is in no way superior to the layout of most subject-specific fora, and requires far more hands-on management of everyone's spew of data for me to get what I want out of it. I have to actively filter off-topic crap from people who's on-topic crap I want to read, or I have to just swear off of them altogether.
it's immensely easier to approve to see messages by the people you want to see then to have to exclude the people you don't, seeing as there are much larger numbers of the latter than the former in the vast majority of cases.
It's the difference between inviting only your friends to your party vs. inviting everyone, then working to kick out everyone who isn't your friend x1000.
If the new definition of "echo chamber" is "dialogue where people don't break out the hate speech over a difference in rules adjudication preferences" count me in ... in ... in ...
Quote from: _kent_;587333I don't think the 'signal to noise' observation is as important on a forum as is made out.
Noise occludes sounds or signals by being ineradicable and coincident but I have no difficulty scanning past the colourful avatars of people who bore me or repeat themselves in a forum discussion and simply read posts that may be interesting. Each post is pristine and unaffected by those around it if the author so chooses. I agree it is harder to jump into a thread and find out what's going on if there is irrelevant or hysterical banter within but threads are most often read from the start and I personally don't have trouble reading what I want. In addition in principle I don't believe in censoring or banning people I consider foolish, sometimes they can surprise you.
I believe the perception that a thread is noisy arises because people are concerned that *others* are being distracted by the irrelevant posts.
I read your posts because I think you are fair if not enlightened.
Fair enough. Of course, you can just skim the irrelevenat parts; for me it's a bit unpleasant to see posters that usually are interesting and level-headed dragged into moronic discussions.
At the end of the day is just a tool. Every tool can be used properly or not.
Quote from: Benoist;587292I'll keep it at that. You know I like you and respect you too.
I just don't want to argue when you haven't been involved yourself.
OK, fair enough. I'm not getting mad at you about something like this :)
Quote from: Benoist;587226There's also the conversation on G+ about Stuart's post that followed Tankar's Tavern post of the link to said update on his blog.
... and nobody's invited me to take part in that conversation.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;587543it's immensely easier to approve to see messages by the people you want to see then to have to exclude the people you don't, seeing as there are much larger numbers of the latter than the former in the vast majority of cases.
But, like I said, I have to take everything, including the off-topic. If I want to read what a particular poster says about RPGs, and that person can't be bothered to filter or target his broadcasts, then I have to wade through it or blcok them altogether.
That's NOT easier.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;587543It's the difference between inviting only your friends to your party vs. inviting everyone, then working to kick out everyone who isn't your friend x1000.
If I only wanted to see what my friends had to say, then I'd sit down and game with them. I do that already.
The whole point to this thing we call the Internet is the ability to have discourse with people I don't know and who may have differing opinions with me.
Have your Google+ and have fun with it. I like my experiences a little less insular, without the helmet and safety padding, thanks.
Quote from: P&P;587597... and nobody's invited me to take part in that conversation.
You should have made your name BIGGER on the cover of the latest OSRIC edition if you want more notice for your cut'n'paste'n'use-dull-prose job.
GRAND CHIEF BIGGER EDITOR.
Quote from: kythri;587665Have your Google+ and have fun with it. I like my experiences a little less insular, without the helmet and safety padding, thanks.
Belt and braces lads they are.
So, I've been looking into G+ RPG chat stuff and my initial impression is that it doesn't really look like an echo chamber anymore than theRPGsite.
The interface is confusing, though. Kent's points about the forum format hold, for me anyway.
Quote from: _kent_;587752You should have made your name BIGGER on the cover of the latest OSRIC edition if you want more notice for your cut'n'paste'n'use-dull-prose job.
GRAND CHIEF BIGGER EDITOR.
You really think so? I value your opinion on these things, _kent_. If you have any further insights to share, I'd love to read them.
Quote from: P&P;587900You really think so? I value your opinion on these things, _kent_. If you have any further insights to share, I'd love to read them.
Ah, there's none so modest as the ragamuffin. No, I am not the one with my name all lovely and bright and SIX FEET HIGH on the cover of a one foot book of borrowed content. It is for me to solicit your opinion, for instance,
Quote from: P&P;585432The voices of the OSR are people like Joe Browning and Jim Kramer, Jeff Talanian and Jon Hersberger, Steve from Dragonsfoot, Allan Grohe, and yes, Autarch and Messrs Raggi and Maliszewski. What they've got in common is putting out products that are actually new.
This would lead me personally to believe that the notion of 'voices of the OSR' is a pestilence, nevertheless, how did you come to realise that these voices in your head were authorities whose talent could illuminate the gaming practices of the ... audience of the OSR?
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;586779What differentiates Dwimmermount from the original campaigns is the conscious decision to limit the (rules) material and to follow in the footsteps of others, trying to build, or play, or experience what they did. But that can't happen. Especially not if you are a GM with 20+ years of gaming experience on your shoulders.
I think you bring a very good point here especially with the comment about being a referee with experience. How important the experience factor is and will be for published OSR projects? Don't get me wrong we stand on the shoulders of Arneson, Gygax, Bledsaw and others but at some point will the present exceed the achievement of their progenitors?
Quote from: _kent_;587931Ah, there's none so modest as the ragamuffin. No, I am not the one with my name all lovely and bright and SIX FEET HIGH on the cover of a one foot book of borrowed content. It is for me to solicit your opinion, for instance,
This would lead me personally to believe that the notion of 'voices of the OSR' is a pestilence, nevertheless, how did you come to realise that these voices in your head were authorities whose talent could illuminate the gaming practices of the ... audience of the OSR?
Fascinating. Please continue!
Quote from: P&P;587950Fascinating. Please continue!
SIX FEET HIGH!! WooHoo!!
It's ME the EDITOR (of Gygax's material)
I wear CHAINMAIL 'cos Im a lord, and don't answer questions 'cos I can't!!
Find me slinking at the Knights & Knaves Alehouse where I am acknowledged as a SIX FOOT EDITOR of a one foot book.
Quote from: P&P;587950Fascinating. Please continue!
Yeah, so you want to post here but you can't quite figure out how to react without resorting to the californian teen girl - 'Whatever!'. That's ok. No pressure, retard!
Quote from: Benoist;586946Well Dirk really answered it well. The main difference I see is that Gary wasn't out to replicate Arneson's Blackmoor religiously. Instead he took the essence of what he experienced and what resonated with his own gaming inclinations to craft his own take on it. Likewise, Arneson didn't simply copy the Braunstein games and pieced together a gaming experience through the Napoleonian game that fleshed out how the Blackmoor campaign itself came to be played, and how it evolved from there.
I think that by trying to replicate past game play experiences from the luminaries of the hobby as a sort of "cosplay" thing you're losing a part of the tradition itself, which Rob Kuntz called the "enchantment" aspect of the game, and which was widely debated during the ENWorld years under the "sense of wonder" turn of phrase. So in my mind, there certainly is a way to pay respect to the tradition and build on it in a fashion that is, in fact, traditional, without falling into the pitfall of simply aping what preceeded ad nauseam.
Good points, so does anything that James have written about Dwimmermount support what you said.?
My view on the development is this;
James started with the idea of a multi-level "big" dungeon and a set of older edition rules and from there pretty much was built during actual play. This includes additional/modified rules and the dungeon itself.
To me this is no different than what Gygax or Arneson did.
I think this from having read his blog and actually have played in the dungeon That while James may have started with a artifical set of limitations everything developed organically like it did with Blackmoor and Greyhawk.
Quote from: estar;587959To me this is no different than what Gygax or Arneson did.
Let's not pretend for a fucking second that JMal's dungeon is going to hold any interest for anyone who is capable of creating their own dungeon. The gloves have been
on so far in this thread only because only the commercial presentation of the product has been on the table for discussion because Dwimmermount has not been released yet.
You can guarantee that the when this thing is released it will be scrutinised AGAIN for its qualities as gaming material supposedly measurable in the tens of thousands of dollars.
Quote from: _kent_;587958SIX FEET HIGH!! WooHoo!!
It's ME the EDITOR (of Gygax's material)
I wear CHAINMAIL 'cos Im a lord, and don't answer questions 'cos I can't!!
Find me slinking at the Knights & Knaves Alehouse where I am acknowledged as a SIX FOOT EDITOR of a one foot book.
Yeah, so you want to post here but you can't quite figure out how to react without resorting to the californian teen girl - 'Whatever!'. That's ok. No pressure, retard!
It's amazing how you've got me so completely figured out. I feel so... so
pwned.
Quote from: P&P;587970It's amazing how you've got me so completely figured out. I feel so... so pwned.
There is so much more I have to learn from the important persons of the OSR, for example how did industry came to be prized above talent, when did old rope became a valuable commodity, and at what point did it become acceptable to trade in dungeons, inferior to those which came before?
Quote from: _kent_;587974There is so much more I have to learn from the important persons of the OSR, for example how did industry came to be prized above talent, when did old rope became a valuable commodity, and at what point did it become acceptable to trade in dungeons, inferior to those which came before?
I'm not an important person of the OSR (I'm not even part of it), but I can answer those!
Industry's always been prized above talent. Hardworking talentless people get more done than lazy talented people. Personally, I'm lazy
and talentless, which is why OSRIC has no creative content and was mostly written by other people anyway.
Old rope became a valuable commodity when TSR started packaging fan-made materials for sale. Which would be 1979, the year they started assembling the Fiend Folio.
And dungeons aren't getting crapper, it's just that anyone can publish their dungeons nowadays. Some are still good, but you're looking at them through shit-coloured spectacles.
Do you have any more questions, or shall I just wait meekly for your next words of wisdom and judgment?
Quote from: P&P;587976Industry's always been prized above talent.
Not by me.
Quote from: _kent_;587982Not by me.
I'm crushed.
Your good opinion means so much to me. My failure to impress you, and your many followers, troubles me every day.
SIX FEET HIGH you say? SIX FEET HIGH on the cover? The editor?
What about a slogan?
OSRIC: where INDUSTRY is prized above TALENT
Quote from: P&P - Im Not Bothered - Whatever;587976Industry's always been prized above talent in my brain.
Quote from: _kent_;587982Not by me.
That is because you are lazy with, perhaps, a small store of talent. In the real world, however, in any endeavor you care to name its industry that counts. If you are talking about great achievements it's great talent coupled to great industry.
Talent alone is not as rare as you think in any case. The world is filled with talented people who sit on their arse and sigh about how unfair it is that their genius is unrecognized, that their half arsed blogs are largely unread and their grand but incomplete ideas are not universally lauded.
Lazy people are very good at disparaging the work of others, however, I'll give you that. They put what little energy into that rather than growing up and learning the lesson of industry.
Quote from: _kent_;587982Not by me.
and you own what multi-billion dollar corporation that provides millions of jobs?
Fiasco, you were responsible for this review of Starstone at Dragonsfoot back in 2006.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19238
That was a good review.
Now look at you.
Quote from: _kent_;588387Fiasco, you were responsible for this review of Starstone at Dragonsfoot back in 2006.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19238
That was a good review.
Now look at you.
I fished you out of my IL because of the secret doors thread.
Now look at
you.
Quote from: _kent_;588387Fiasco, you were responsible for this review of Starstone at Dragonsfoot back in 2006.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19238
That was a good review.
Now look at you.
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm certainly of no significance to this hobby but nor do I spend my time disparaging those with considerably more achievements than mine. JMal would be the exception to that but solely for his failure to man up and admit he fucked up his kickstarter.
I am proud of that review, however, thanks for reading it.
Quote from: Fiasco;588380That is because you are lazy with, perhaps, a small store of talent.
Perhaps? You're doubting the talent of the great _kent_? You
dare to doubt his talent?!
Quote from: P&P;588425Perhaps? You're doubting the talent of the great _kent_? You dare to doubt his talent?!
You know what, I think I'm done responding to Kent's posts unless it's on an actual discussion like the secret doors thread. Berating him does not add value to any thread so I apologise for that.
Back onto Dwimmermount. James seems to have had a fire lit under him and is cranking out the material now. Could he still deliver by Christmas?
Quote from: Fiasco;588465You know what, I think I'm done responding to Kent's posts unless it's on an actual discussion like the secret doors thread. Berating him does not add value to any thread so I apologise for that.
Back onto Dwimmermount. James seems to have had a fire lit under him and is cranking out the material now. Could he still deliver by Christmas?
I didn't think the manuscript was even completed.
Editing, layout, printing all done and shipped by Christmas seems like a stretch.
Quote from: JasonZavoda;588517I didn't think the manuscript was even completed.
Editing, layout, printing all done and shipped by Christmas seems like a stretch.
From what I understand things like art and layout can proceed for each level as its completed so possibly not a huge delay from when the final level is turned in. I have no idea what sort of print turnaround times are the norm.
Quote from: Fiasco;588380Lazy people are very good at disparaging the work of others, however, I'll give you that. They put what little energy into that rather than growing up and learning the lesson of industry.
There was a great essay by William Golding called "Thinking as a Hobby" that used to be used in American high schools to teach critical thinking. In it, second level thinking was focused on tearing down poor, existing ideas, but not contributing new or better ideas.
Being negative isn't entirely a bad thing, but its been placed on a societal throne with clever insults and sarcasm.
That pretty much sums up the vast majority of posts on the Internet, except those that fall within the first level and the extreme rarity of something new.
Quote from: Lynn;588574There was a great essay by William Golding called "Thinking as a Hobby" that used to be used in American high schools to teach critical thinking. In it, second level thinking was focused on tearing down poor, existing ideas, but not contributing new or better ideas.
Being negative isn't entirely a bad thing, but its been placed on a societal throne with clever insults and sarcasm.
That pretty much sums up the vast majority of posts on the Internet, except those that fall within the first level and the extreme rarity of something new.
Yeah, I think this is part of Monte Cook's point with his A+ campaign.
My impression is that James M is slightly bipolar, like me, President Obama, and a lot of other people. So when he's feeling energetic/up he'll promise stuff he can't deliver when he's depressed/down. That doesn't make him a scam artist, but he could maybe work on developing a more realistic self awareness about his actual capabilities, to avoid disappointing people in future.
Quote from: Fiasco;588533From what I understand things like art and layout can proceed for each level as its completed so possibly not a huge delay from when the final level is turned in. I have no idea what sort of print turnaround times are the norm.
I'm going to base the estimate this week on a) the words-per-week rate of manuscript completion since we started tracking these in the updates on 8/10 and b) an average of how long it's taken us to go from finished manuscript to PDF to print with other Autarch projects. I'll crunch the numbers tomorrow (and announce 'em here) but my sense is that even though a) is going very well, b) is still going to put the estimated PDF arrival past Christmas.
That will likely be a conservative estimate - delays on getting the Player's Companion PDF indexed are killing us right now, and I do think it'd be possible for Adam Jury who's doing the Dwimmermount layout to beat our average time - but to avoid setting up more unrealistic expectations I want to base it not on a general norm but rather the rate that I can personally document.
Quote from: Tavis;588686I'm going to base the estimate this week on a) the words-per-week rate of manuscript completion since we started tracking these in the updates on 8/10 and b) an average of how long it's taken us to go from finished manuscript to PDF to print with other Autarch projects. I'll crunch the numbers tomorrow (and announce 'em here) but my sense is that even though a) is going very well, b) is still going to put the estimated PDF arrival past Christmas.
That will likely be a conservative estimate - delays on getting the Player's Companion PDF indexed are killing us right now, and I do think it'd be possible for Adam Jury who's doing the Dwimmermount layout to beat our average time - but to avoid setting up more unrealistic expectations I want to base it not on a general norm but rather the rate that I can personally document.
How big is the Players Companion? What type of index and how many pages were you looking for? It should only take about a week or so to compile a decent index.
Quote from: JasonZavoda;588755How big is the Players Companion? What type of index and how many pages were you looking for? It should only take about a week or so to compile a decent index.
It's 155 pages. Some of the work is creating a table of contents and index, but there's also creating internal hyperlinks and other arcana of PDF creation.
Quote from: Tavis;588780It's 155 pages. Some of the work is creating a table of contents and index, but there's also creating internal hyperlinks and other arcana of PDF creation.
The table of contents is normally just a list of the headings, and sub-headings if you want to go into that level of detail. The index should include the table of contents information, now compiled alphabetically, lists of tables, and key terms, which can become as specific as you think is relevant. Adding hyperlinks and other arcana is tech work. (NOTE: I am note qualified to comment on tech work).
As far as indexing; a TOC, index and perhaps a list of tables, shouldn't be more than a single week's work for a 155page supplement, bells, whistles, hyperlinks and other PDF arcana not included.
I say this from a great deal of actual experience creating indexes, both for published material and fan indexing projects.
*nods* JasonZavoda created the index for OSRIC in its Black Blade incarnation.
What a clusterfuck this thread has turned out to be.
RPGPundit
http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.ca/2012/10/played-dwimmermount-last-night-sucked.html
AWESOME!
Quote from: grimshwiz;589909http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.ca/2012/10/played-dwimmermount-last-night-sucked.html
AWESOME!
Please don't post blind links; add at least some minimum description of what people are clicking to.
RPGPundit
Returning to this thread after some months and it looks like James has dropped off the radar completely and isn't even communicating with Tavis:
"I don’t have any information on the reasons for James’ silence, but the project is stalled as a result. Autarch is looking into our options if he remains out of contact. I’ll post an update as soon as I hear from him, or once we work out the best course of action if that doesn’t happen.”
Wow.
Quote from: Fiasco;617777Returning to this thread after some months and it looks like James has dropped off the radar completely and isn't even communicating with Tavis:
"I don't have any information on the reasons for James' silence, but the project is stalled as a result. Autarch is looking into our options if he remains out of contact. I'll post an update as soon as I hear from him, or once we work out the best course of action if that doesn't happen."
Wow.
Yeah, things look exceptionally bad at this point.
He posted an explanation of why he was stopping blogging on Google+ about a month ago so this isn't really unexpected.
Not surprising. We are approaching the 1 year mark soon. I suspect the cash is nearly gone and motivation to finish the project along with it.
Quote from: Daztur;617805He posted an explanation of why he was stopping blogging on Google+ about a month ago so this isn't really unexpected.
What was the explanation? I don't follow him on G+ and can only see one post on his stream today.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;617808Not surprising. We are approaching the 1 year mark soon. I suspect the cash is nearly gone and motivation to finish the project along with it.
If the money is gone, that would mean that the cash to actually fulfill obligations is also gone. Things might get legal if that's the case.
Quote from: Grymbok;617809What was the explanation? I don't follow him on G+ and can only see one post on his stream today.
Here we go:
QuoteTo say that 2012 has been a year of cruel ironies would be an understatement. In a year when, by some measures, I've had some of my greatest successes, I feel most like a failure. There's no better measure of that than Grognardia itself. If you look at its 2012 stats, you'll see its own track to being the year with the least posts since I began nearly five years ago -- and I didn't even start posting in 2008 until the very end of March. If I'm lucky, I'll average one post a day for 2012, which is a huge drop for 2011, never mind 2010, where I averaged two posts a day for the whole year.
I have a lot of theories as to why my rate of posting has dropped off. Regardless, I find myself wondering (again) whether it might be time to hang up my blogger's cap and return to being a private gamer once again. The pressure to produce Dwimmermount has been immense and the pace of it punishing. I've written over 100,000 words since late August and that's not counting all the edits and rewrites I've already done, as well as those to come in the weeks ahead. While I know the end result will be something of which I am proud, the process of getting there is grinding me and, more importantly, my desire to write for others into a fine powder.
Consequently, blogging is the last thing I have any desire to do, even when I have lots of ideas for things I want to talk about, which I still do. But the simple reality is that, right now, writing is not fun for me. It's become a chore and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Ironically, I've been enjoying gaming as a player more than I have in many a moon, thanks in large part to excellent referees like +Shawn Sanford and +Ian Burns, who've provided some of my favorite moments of 2012 relating to this hobby. I've also enjoyed my regular games with my Dwimmermount playtesters; they're a reminder to me of just why I did this in the first place and I can't thank them enough.
I'm drained and burned out when it comes to writing. I feel "empty," like I've used up every drop of whatever stores of imagination I still had left in me. If it weren't for regular features on the blog, most of which don't require a lot of effort for me to write, I doubt I could write even as little as I have been. Even then, I'm doing it more out of obligation than the burning desire to do so whether or not anyone read it that used to characterize my writing. I hate feeling this way and worry that, if I don't do something drastic about it, I'm going to feel this way forever.
Bleh.
*Cue lots of supportive posts from people on his Google+ feed*
QuoteYes, my biggest mistake was in going with the Kickstarter when I did, but that's water under the bridge. I'm quite happy with the way the book is shaping up and I have little doubt I'll be proud of it when it's done, but the process of it is something I will never repeat, because it's been soul-crushing in many ways.
My take on it is that he's pretty burned out but is keeping on trucking. I'm sure we'll see the whole product sooner or later. Doing 100,000 words plus edits in four months can take a lot out of anyone. If he got that much done since late August I'm sure he'll get the rest done in a bit...
But then I didn't contribute to the kickstarter so I don't have much personal reason to care either way.
Quote from: misterguignol;617810If the money is gone, that would mean that the cash to actually fulfill obligations is also gone. Things might get legal if that's the case.
If the issue is they are just waiting on the writer, and they have budgeted properly, once would assume they have money for edits and layout, and any money they spent went toward stuff like art. Bad planning if they spent the money before paying for all those other elements. But if it is just a writer issue, they could hire a new writer to complete the project so people get what they were promised (though I am guessing not everyone will be satisfied with that). If a writer stops contact with the publisher and deadlines are past, the contract is broken (unless it is a poorly written contract or they don't have a contract). This has happened to me before. A writer dissapears and you have to step in yourself or hire someone new.
Quote from: misterguignol;617810If the money is gone, that would mean that the cash to actually fulfill obligations is also gone. Things might get legal if that's the case.
Before it gets there, Autarch should be given a chance to make things right. I'm in for $66.00 so I have a stake in this, but if it takes some time it will be alright.
Quote from: Grymbok;617809What was the explanation? I don't follow him on G+ and can only see one post on his stream today.
Yeah, I have to say it's either very obnoxious or very technically naive of James to keep announcements like that to his G+ because not everyone has it or wants it, and also announcements relating to his blog really ought to go
on the blog, yaknow?
Also I assume that if anyone's closely linked to James on G+ you'd really expect
the collaborators on one of his most high-profile publishing projects to be on that list but if even they are drawing a blank there (and with e-mail, and on the phone - I suspect a project like this would have involved at least a phone call or two along the way) then it's very, very worrying - really, in terms of James' personal well-being first and the project second.
Up to this point I thought the Dwimmermount complainers were being a bit unreasonable in terms of what estimated delivery dates mean on Kickstarter (answer: not a fuck of a lot much) and was reasonably confident that the product would see the light of day. But since it now sounds like his own partners in the project
can't get in touch with the guy all my red flags are up. At this point if the outcome is "the project never materialises and everyone hates James for taking their money" that'd actually be one of the better results because the worst-case scenario might be "James is actually seriously ill/hurt/dead and his family have understandably been too busy dealing with that to let his hobby friends know about it."
It's been pointed out to me lately too that his Petty Gods project which people submitted work to him for has just kind of
sat there not doing anything for ages with no word of it even beginning to move towards publication, which is its own worry.
Quote from: Daztur;617816My take on it is that he's pretty burned out but is keeping on trucking. I'm sure we'll see the whole product sooner or later. Doing 100,000 words plus edits in four months can take a lot out of anyone. If he got that much done since late August I'm sure he'll get the rest done in a bit...
But then I didn't contribute to the kickstarter so I don't have much personal reason to care either way.
Thanks. Is he still active on G+ lately? I note that Grognardia hasn't been updated in over a month (and all its comment threads seem to be on G+ posts I can't see now, so there's no chance to even get an update via the comments).
That's really, really not good.
EDIT: I say that as a backer at the pdf level. I think many of us have been pretty patient, but when there's no communication, that's a big alarm point.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;617817If the issue is they are just waiting on the writer, and they have budgeted properly, once would assume they have money for edits and layout, and any money they spent went toward stuff like art. Bad planning if they spent the money before paying for all those other elements. But if it is just a writer issue, they could hire a new writer to complete the project so people get what they were promised (though I am guessing not everyone will be satisfied with that). If a writer stops contact with the publisher and deadlines are past, the contract is broken (unless it is a poorly written contract or they don't have a contract). This has happened to me before. A writer dissapears and you have to step in yourself or hire someone new.
There is no "they." James M. has all the money from the Kickstarter.
Quote from: misterguignol;617824There is no "they." James M. has all the money from the Kickstarter.
Oh. I was under the impression there was a publisher for some reason.
In that case, it is probably a bit messy. There must be terms and conditions on kickstarter for this sort of thing (I can't imagine it hasn't happened before).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;617825Oh. I was under the impression there was a publisher for some reason.
In that case, it is probably a bit messy. There must be terms and conditions on kickstarter for this sort of thing (I can't imagine it hasn't happened before).
It's a complicated situation in that there is a publisher, but all the funds were transferred to James at the conclusion of the Kickstarter. If anyone here is a backer with questions, I suggest you ask Tavis from Autarch--he's been as transparent and honest as possible in this messy, disappointing situation.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;617825Oh. I was under the impression there was a publisher for some reason.
In that case, it is probably a bit messy. There must be terms and conditions on kickstarter for this sort of thing (I can't imagine it hasn't happened before).
Yeah the mess is problematic because Autarch is on the hook per the kickstarter agreement and James has all the cash. I feel bad for Tavis but hopefully he learned a bit more about doing business from all this.
Is kickstarter cash placed in part (or in whole) in an escrow type account?
Quote from: ggroy;617834Is kickstarter cash placed in part (or in whole) in an escrow type account?
By Kickstarter? No. It's handed over to the creator to fund their project.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;617829Yeah the mess is problematic because Autarch is on the hook per the kickstarter agreement and James has all the cash. I feel bad for Tavis but hopefully he learned a bit more about doing business from all this.
From a legal standpoint here's my take:
- From the point of view of the backers, since Autarch were running the Kickstarter the backers in effect have a contract with Autarch to deliver the product. All of the legal prerequisites for a contract to be in place a present, and the backers have provided their side of the bargain (the money) so the backers would have a good case for a breach of contract lawsuit.
- If Autarch are actually sued by the backers for breach of contract, or are threatened with a lawsuit, then Autarch have a number of options, none of them pleasant. They could try to fight it in court, which will be expensive - not least because the backers are kind of in the right here so it'll be really tricky to wriggle out of it. They could pony up and offer a refund - though if they're in a position to do that in the first place, things probably won't get to the lawsuit stage. Or they could sit down with the backers out of court and say "Look, we know you're out of pocket and we really hate that, but we've been badly let down here too. Give us a chance to pursue a resolution with James and we promise you that if he doesn't pony up with either the product or money to refund you by (DEADLINE), we'll sue
him for breach of contract because he agreed to produce this product for us in return for the Kickstarter money and he hasn't delivered the goods."
- What of Autarch's chances of suing James? If Autarch have been hard-nosed but sensible they'll have a contract between them and James they can produce in breach of contract proceedings. There may even be clauses covering what happens if James screws the pooch and can't deliver the goods, which will prove extra handy. If they have been a bit more ad hoc about things they are in a less good position but they should still be able to assemble sufficient evidence in the form of e-mails, public statements by James and the like to demonstrate that a contract existed between them (we run Kickstarter, give you Kickstarter money, and print your book, you provide us with text for book), though there may be a lot of wrangling in court over precisely what that contract entailed. Still, I can't imagine many courts siding with the guy who takes the money to write a book and then fails to write the book, especially given some of James' (perhaps ill-advised) statements in the past when it comes to just how finished Dwimmermount is.
However, people don't like throwing good money after bad and often don't like being assertive about getting legal redress for minor wrongs, so it may be that nobody ever summons the cojones to start the ball rolling.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;617829I feel bad for Tavis
This is actually the person I sympathize with the most in all this. He didn't ask for all this shit to happen, though he did make one big mistake in basically making Autarch partly responsible on the kickstarter while sending all the funds to James M.
Quote from: Benoist;617840This is actually the person I sympathize with the most in all this. He didn't ask for all this shit to happen, though he did make one big mistake in basically making Autarch partly responsible on the kickstarter while sending all the funds to James M.
Yeah, I'm not mad at Tavis. He's always done his best in his dealings with me, and I think he's just in an impossible situation.
In hindsight, the transfer-the-money-to-JM-in-Canada thing was a mistake, leaving Autarch front and center/high and dry, but people make mistakes. Unfortunately, this one of a pretty high-profile nature.
Quote from: Warthur;617839From a legal standpoint here's my take:
For extra-legal options for hardcore type individuals who take the law into their own hands :D, there's always:
- Physically knocking on JamesM's front door and asking him some hard questions, while filming the encounter for later uploading to youtube.
- Ambushing him when he's walking home or while he is shopping, while filming everything.
- etc ...
(For really extreme hardcore individuals).
- Threatening him with physical violence, after encountering him in person.
- Shooting him dead with a gun.
- etc ...
:rolleyes: :D
Quote from: Warthur;617839However, people don't like throwing good money after bad and often don't like being assertive about getting legal redress for minor wrongs, so it may be that nobody ever summons the cojones to start the ball rolling.
And here it is: I am in it for $60, but is it worth my time to pursue a legal solution to this problem? Probably not. Maybe the two backers in at the $250 level might be interested in a legal solution? I doubt it.
Plus, after lawyer's fees, how much of that $48,756 would even make its way back into the backer's hands? Probably not enough to make a legal solution worth it.
Quote from: ggroy;617855NO
Not funny.
Quote from: ggroy;617855For extra-legal options for hardcore type individuals who take the law into their own hands :D, there's always:
- Physically knocking on JamesM's front door and asking him some hard questions, while filming the encounter for later uploading to youtube.
- Ambushing him when he's walking home or while he is shopping, while filming everything.
- etc ...
(For really extreme hardcore individuals).
- Threatening him with physical violence, after encountering him in person.
- Shooting him dead with a gun.
- etc ...
:rolleyes: :D
I'm sure you meant that to be funny, but that's not cool at all.
Quote from: ggroy;617855For extra-legal options for hardcore type individuals who take the law into their own hands :D, there's always:
- Physically knocking on JamesM's front door and asking him some hard questions, while filming the encounter for later uploading to youtube.
- Ambushing him when he's walking home or while he is shopping, while filming everything.
- etc ...
(For really extreme hardcore individuals).
- Threatening him with physical violence, after encountering him in person.
- Shooting him dead with a gun.
- etc ...
:rolleyes: :D
Totally not cool, man.
heh, i found the first part to be amusing.
Quote from: Jacob Marley;617857And here it is: I am in it for $60, but is it worth my time to pursue a legal solution to this problem? Probably not. Maybe the two backers in at the $250 level might be interested in a legal solution? I doubt it.
Plus, after lawyer's fees, how much of that $48,756 would even make its way back into the backer's hands? Probably not enough to make a legal solution worth it.
It isn't worth my time for a lawyer at the $66.00 level.
Heck at this point I would be happy with print copies of ACKS and the Players Companion instead. Thats something Autarch can provide without too much extra trouble.
Quote from: beeber;617866heh, i found the first part to be amusing.
Perhaps the second part isn't funny after all.
Quote from: Daztur;617816Here we go . . .
Translation? 'Writing is HARD, you guys!'
Yeah, no fucking shit.
No sympathy whatsoever, for anyone concerned. Autarch lay down with a dog, so fleas are a matter of course, and all the bullshit hype in the world won't get rid of 'em.
And hiding behind Google+ is just chickenshit.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;617869And hiding behind Google+ is just chickenshit.
It's silence on G+ as well, so the hiding is deeper than that.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;617869Translation? 'Writing is HARD, you guys!'
Yeah, no fucking shit.
No sympathy whatsoever, for anyone concerned. Autarch lay down with a dog, so fleas are a matter of course, and all the bullshit hype in the world won't get rid of 'em.
And hiding behind Google+ is just chickenshit.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, blog twice a day about it?
Quote from: Benoist;617840This is actually the person I sympathize with the most in all this. He didn't ask for all this shit to happen, though he did make one big mistake in basically making Autarch partly responsible on the kickstarter while sending all the funds to James M.
Yeah, that's a really basic mistake. In pretty much any Kickstarter the party who actually gets the money and the party who runs the Kickstarter ought to be the same because then if there's a screw-up the backers can have direct recourse to the person who actually got their money.
At the same time, I can see why as a company you might want to exert editorial control over what goes out on the Kickstarter page because you don't want the person running the Kickstarter to get overexcited and start promising the Moon to people, so whilst it is a bad mistake it's an easy one to make.
Perhaps in retrospect Autarch should have kept the money and paid James on a month-by-month basis, tied in with accomplishment of keystone objectives, with a proviso in whatever agreement they had between them that if James got way behind on schedule, didn't turn in high quality work or simply wasn't able to finish the product that Autarch reserved the right to cut off payments and use the rest of the money to hire someone in to finish the product. There'd have been some fan butthurt then, but I think most reasonable people would accept it if you said "Look, we had a choice of waiting for James to get his shit in order and getting the product to you unacceptably late, and possibly never, or getting someone else in to finish the product and actually get a decent quality product to you in a reasonable time, and we're sorry it turned out this way but we think it had to happen for the good of the project".
Quote from: Jacob Marley;617857And here it is: I am in it for $60, but is it worth my time to pursue a legal solution to this problem? Probably not. Maybe the two backers in at the $250 level might be interested in a legal solution? I doubt it.
Plus, after lawyer's fees, how much of that $48,756 would even make its way back into the backer's hands? Probably not enough to make a legal solution worth it.
Indeed.
I guess the only people who may have enough of a financial incentive over this to sue are Autarch themselves, who might indeed sue James off their own bat. I think it's unlikely because it sounds like they're friends, but then again this is why you don't go into business arrangements worth thousands of dollars with friends: when it goes tits up you want to be in a position where you can sleep at night after taking the other guy to small claims court for your money back.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;617867Heck at this point I would be happy with print copies of ACKS and the Players Companion instead. Thats something Autarch can provide without too much extra trouble.
I suspect this is where it'll end up if the product never manifests (which I now consider more likely than not). The guys who went in at $250+ may need a wee bit more mollifying but I suspect most people are going to walk away from this with print or PDF copies of some of Autarch's other products. Not ideal for Autarch, but at least they walk away without any legal or financial entanglements and with the goodwill/sympathy of the fans (or at least those fans who are willing to be reasonable and concede that Autarch don't have direct personal control of James M.).
Quote from: Jacob Marley;617857And here it is: I am in it for $60, but is it worth my time to pursue a legal solution to this problem? Probably not. Maybe the two backers in at the $250 level might be interested in a legal solution? I doubt it.
Plus, after lawyer's fees, how much of that $48,756 would even make its way back into the backer's hands? Probably not enough to make a legal solution worth it.
Indeed.
I guess the only people who may have enough of a financial incentive over this to sue are Autarch themselves, who might indeed sue James off their own bat. I think it's unlikely because it sounds like they're friends, but then again this is why you don't go into business arrangements worth thousands of dollars with friends: when it goes tits up you want to be in a position where you can sleep at night after taking the other guy to small claims court for your money back.
Quote from: Warthur;617878The guys who went in at $250+ ...
More generally, what kind of person would put that much cash into a single tabletop rpg book?
Personally, I wouldn't pay more than around $40 (or $50 at most) for a thick hardcover rpg book with glossy colored pages.
Quote from: Fiasco;617777Returning to this thread after some months and it looks like James has dropped off the radar completely and isn't even communicating with Tavis:
"I don't have any information on the reasons for James' silence, but the project is stalled as a result. Autarch is looking into our options if he remains out of contact. I'll post an update as soon as I hear from him, or once we work out the best course of action if that doesn't happen."
Wow.
Forty-five thousand dollars, people. Let that sink in.
Quote from: ggroy;617888More generally, what kind of person would put that much cash into a single tabletop rpg book?
Personally, I wouldn't pay more than around $40 (or $50 at most) for a thick hardcover rpg book with glossy colored pages.
It wasn't just a book. The kickstarter was promising some pie in the sky rewards for high level backers such as deluxe map books, custom miniatures, and all other kinds of goodies.
Sounds like the backers need to contact KS, because as part of the Terms of Service, if products aren't delivered, it's up to him to refund all of that money.
There is the fact that the drafts of all the levels and the wilderness have been completed. While it doesn't make the situation any better it does mean Tavis has some options.
Quote from: estar;617913There is the fact that the drafts of all the levels and the wilderness have been completed. While it doesn't make the situation any better it does mean Tavis has some options.
That depends on the nature of the contract between James and Autarch. Autarch might not have the copyright on the material, and therefore can't do anything with it.
This behaviour will ruin kickstarter for everyone else.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Panjumanju;617917This behaviour will ruin kickstarter for everyone else.
//Panjumanju
This one is a bit of a one-off though given the way it was setup (with Autarch acting as front men for a 2nd party who was in a country where Kickstarter did not operate).
My personal view is it will be the first multi-million KS to fail to deliver that really pops the bubble on the model.
As far as I know, James is still working on the stuff. Has he announced that he's quit?
Quote from: Panjumanju;617917This behaviour will ruin kickstarter for everyone else.
//Panjumanju
Nah. It will serve as a lesson to those thinking of running one on behalf of a third party to cover thier ass before doing so.
If Autarch didn't have any actual contract in place with James then this lesson will be painful indeed.
Quote from: Grymbok;617919My personal view is it will be the first multi-million KS to fail to deliver that really pops the bubble on the model.
Multi-million? We are talking less than 50K here.
Quote from: danbuter;617920As far as I know, James is still working on the stuff. Has he announced that he's quit?
I think the question is more whether he's announced anything...
Quote from: Grymbok;617919This one is a bit of a one-off though given the way it was setup (with Autarch acting as front men for a 2nd party who was in a country where Kickstarter did not operate).
My personal view is it will be the first multi-million KS to fail to deliver that really pops the bubble on the model.
I didn't mean this particular scandal, just the behaviour behind it. Inability to deliver on a promised project because he's been 'feeling a bit down lately'.
I'm going to be unusually harsh, but...this fellow has no self respect, no pride, no honour in his work, or he would fulfil his obligations before spending the money - or, now that sufficient time has passed to establish the project is not going to happen - give it back and apologise.
Instead, it appear he is trying to shrink into the darkness like some ground mammal.
How is any potential backer supposed to have faith supporting a project if this is considered even remotely "okay"?
//Panjumanju
Quote from: thedungeondelver;617900Forty-five thousand dollars, people. Let that sink in.
Wonder how exactly he managed to raise so much $$$$ in the first place.
If I had to guess, it had a lot to do with the (previous) high popularity of his "grognardia" blog?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;617912Sounds like the backers need to contact KS, because as part of the Terms of Service, if products aren't delivered, it's up to him to refund all of that money.
He didn't run the kickstarter. It would probably be Autarch's problem, as far as KS would care...
(Shitty position for Autarch to have found themselves in, though. And now the money's gone, they don't have much leverage on James... damn shame.)
Quote from: Panjumanju;617917This behaviour will ruin kickstarter for everyone else.
//Panjumanju
It was coming, sooner or later.
And this is why we can't have nice things: dickheads ruining it for everyone else.
Quote from: danbuter;617920As far as I know, James is still working on the stuff. Has he announced that he's quit?
He hasn't announced anything. In fact, he seems to have stopped answering emails from the people he's supposedly working with and backers of his project. It seems like he's basically hiding out for fear of having to actually address the fact that he took money for something he's not actually going to finish.
Quote from: Grymbok;617919My personal view is it will be the first multi-million KS to fail to deliver that really pops the bubble on the model.
After that, it may possibly be the (relatively) big players left whom are able to get funded via KS, such as Mongoose, Paizo, etc ... ? (ie. Potential donors avoiding everything else).
Quote from: Exploderwizard;617922Multi-million? We are talking less than 50K here.
I know, my post was in response to Panjumanju's comment that this kind of thing will ruin KS for others. I was saying that I think that rather than this is will be when one of the big multi-million drives fails that the crash will be seen.
In the smaller RPG world, I don't think there's been anything with more than a couple thousand backers, so I'm not sure any one failure would make a big splash.
Quote from: Panjumanju;617924I didn't mean this particular scandal, just the behaviour behind it. Inability to deliver on a promised project because he's been 'feeling a bit down lately'.
I'm going to be unusually harsh, but...this fellow has no self respect, no pride, no honour in his work, or he would fulfil his obligations before spending the money - or, now that sufficient time has passed to establish the project is not going to happen - give it back and apologise.
Instead, it appear he is trying to shrink into the darkness like some ground mammal.
How is any potential backer supposed to have faith supporting a project if this is considered even remotely "okay"?
//Panjumanju
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I think that ultimately some form of "whoops it just didn't work out artistically" will be how many/most funded Kickstarters fail. The obvious exceptions being some of the big video game ones where "we have no money left and the project's not done yet" is going to be a risk.
Incidentally, since I know Tavis drops in here from time to time - I backed the ACKS Player's Companion and would happily back further products from Autarch. I think they're learning well through the process, and I don't think anyone is believing they're the problem here.
Quote from: ggroy;617925Wonder how exactly he managed to raise so much $$$$ in the first place.
If I had to guess, it had a lot to do with the (previous) high popularity of his "grognardia" blog?
He had 1,000 backers, so he was running at an average donation of $47. Looking at the pledge levels that's essentially what he was charging for the printed version of the book, so yeah - he managed to leverage 1,000 sales based on his popularity.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount
When you look at it that way it doesn't seem quite as much $$$$, I'd say.
Quote from: Grymbok;617935He had 1,000 backers, so he was running at an average donation of $47. Looking at the pledge levels that's essentially what he was charging for the printed version of the book, so yeah - he managed to leverage 1,000 sales based on his popularity.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount
When you look at it that way it doesn't seem quite as much $$$$, I'd say.
I didn't even read his blog, it just looked like a neat project at the time.
Quote from: misterguignol;617916That depends on the nature of the contract between James and Autarch. Autarch might not have the copyright on the material, and therefore can't do anything with it.
Given the handshake quality of what we've seen so far, I'd be a little (pleasantly!) surprised if there
is a contract, let alone one that assigns responsibility in failure scenarios.
We don't know the money's all been spent. For all I know, he diligently invested the printing and shipping capital in some nice mutual fund. Let's hope so.
We don't know he's not going to finish it. The draft came in a month ago, so unless there was a problem with it, they're finally moving into what should be the home stretch.
Very few projects take months or years to commission art and lay out. The existence of monthly magazines and daily newspapers proves this. Now they have text, they can presumably massage it into pages.
The breakdown in communication is ominous, but that's about it.
Quote from: econobus;617947We don't know the money's all been spent. For all I know, he diligently invested the printing and shipping capital in some nice mutual fund. Let's hope so.
We don't know he's not going to finish it. The draft came in a month ago, so unless there was a problem with it, they're finally moving into what should be the home stretch.
Very few projects take months or years to commission art and lay out. The existence of monthly magazines and daily newspapers proves this. Now they have text, they can presumably massage it into pages.
The breakdown in communication is ominous, but that's about it.
If the picture were as rosy as you're painting it, why wouldn't he just say "Don't worry, I've got the money to print this set aside and we're in the home stretch"?
Quote from: econobus;617947We don't know the money's all been spent. For all I know, he diligently invested the printing and shipping capital in some nice mutual fund. Let's hope so.
We don't know he's not going to finish it. The draft came in a month ago, so unless there was a problem with it, they're finally moving into what should be the home stretch.
Very few projects take months or years to commission art and lay out. The existence of monthly magazines and daily newspapers proves this. Now they have text, they can presumably massage it into pages.
The breakdown in communication is ominous, but that's about it.
What we do know, just by common sense and business etiquette, is that the project should have been written before the kickstarter went up. Its very easy to understand that art, production, and printing costs money. Writing the game is free.
Quote from: misterguignol;617948If the picture were as rosy as you're painting it, why wouldn't he just say "Don't worry, I've got the money to print this set aside and we're in the home stretch"?
Heh, when I came here people suspected I was a troll because I was so darn negative on Dwimmermount.
Now I'm painting a rosy picture!
We all know he's the great communicator of yon OSR. Which means important need-to-know statements like "I got this, be cool, just taking a break" go to his walled Google+ garden and not the backers. Meanwhile the interminable trudge through Imagine magazine continues. This is what people signed on for.
Quote from: TristramEvans;617949What we do know, just by common sense and business etiquette, is that the project should have been written before the kickstarter went up. Its very easy to understand that art, production, and printing costs money. Writing the game is free.
Backers were told,
long after the kickstarter ended that some of the money was being used to pay for writing time. That was back when the project should have been finished. This is why I'm speculating that James has burned through all the money.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;617953Backers were told, long after the kickstarter ended that some of the money was being used to pay for writing time. That was back when the project should have been finished. This is why I'm speculating that James has burned through all the money.
Does anybody know whether JamesM has a full-time 9-to-5 job, that is unrelated to the tabletop rpg games?
Quote from: TristramEvans;617949What we do know, just by common sense and business etiquette, is that the project should have been written before the kickstarter went up. Its very easy to understand that art, production, and printing costs money. Writing the game is free.
"Common sense and business etiquette" go out the window here because this is a "hobby." For the FANS.
Or so I'm told, time in and time out when professional standards go awry in yon OSR.
A $45,000 check was indeed cashed here. For once I'm on Grognardia's side because we have no idea whether the money's gone. We can suspect all we want based on his track record for communication and delivery, but until someone coughs up, we don't know.
Now the lawyers! I agree, $47 per backer is not worth lawyering up over.
But a class action suit for $45,000 is worth a vulture suiting up to start circling. I know a few attorneys have been licking their lips to test the KS refund system and get backers their money back. Maybe not here, but the time is coming.
Quote from: ggroy;617956Does anybody know whether JamesM has a full-time 9-to-5 job, that is unrelated to the tabletop rpg games?
Of course not. This is his job. Excuse me, "hobby."
Quote from: ggroy;617956Does anybody know whether JamesM has a full-time 9-to-5 job, that is unrelated to the tabletop rpg games?
No idea, but when communication to the backers indicated that some of the funds would support James while writing the project, a full time job seemed unlikely. If he did have full time work then why would he require support?
Quote from: econobus;617960Of course not. This is his job. Excuse me, "hobby."
Wonder how exactly he financially supports himself and his family.
For example, does he have a wife that works a full-time 9-to-5 job? Or is JamesM from a rich family, where he can live off of a trust fund?
Quote from: ggroy;617964Wonder how exactly he financially supports himself and his family.
For example, does he have a wife that works a full-time 9-to-5 job? Or is JamesM from a rich family, where he can live off of a trust fund?
All these guys are stay at home dads.
Quote from: econobus;617951We all know he's the great communicator of yon OSR.
(http://img4.joyreactor.com/pics/comment/comics-merkworks-egg-chicken-273194.gif)
Quote from: Black Vulmea;617969(http://img4.joyreactor.com/pics/comment/comics-merkworks-egg-chicken-273194.gif)
This lit up every last corroded valve in what I call a heart. Thank you. You, you are the stars!
JMal may be suffering from stage fright as much as he is limping for lack of inspiration. I suggest it would be for the best to let him alone until he has finished, in fact, why not surprise him with hearty shouts of encouragement, well wishes and praise!
At this point I am more interested in reading reviews of the finished work, attending the circus of appreciation and critique one might say, so lets drink to JMal's health and swift penmanship! Hurray! For he's a jolly good fellow ... la la la la la ... and so on and so forth!
Quote from: Prince Lordly Manly Man;617989JMal may be suffering from stage fright as much as he is limping for lack of inspiration. I suggest it would be for the best to let him alone until he has finished, in fact, why not surprise him with hearty shouts of encouragement, well wishes and praise!
At this point I am more interested in reading reviews of the finished work, attending the circus of appreciation and critique one might say, so lets drink to JMal's health and swift penmanship! Hurray! For he's a jolly good fellow ... la la la la la ... and so on and so forth!
Stage fright? He has been releasing the levels to backers as they are completed so fear of critique would have come and gone long ago.
If there is any stage fright it might be from realizing that that the time has come to admit that there isn't a dime left for art, layout, or printing.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;617912Sounds like the backers need to contact KS, because as part of the Terms of Service, if products aren't delivered, it's up to him to refund all of that money.
KS aren't actually able to extract money from James to refund to backers, though - the most they can do is, I dunno, pull the Kickstarter page or something.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;617907It wasn't just a book. The kickstarter was promising some pie in the sky rewards for high level backers such as deluxe map books, custom miniatures, and all other kinds of goodies.
Wait, does James have the Kickstarter money for this too? That would be idiotic - there'd be no reason for him to hold the money which would be used to fulfill those rewards and insane for Autarch to fund all of those rewards out of their own pockets. There really needs to be a bit more transparency as to what proportion of the money has been budgeted for what purpose.
Quote from: Warthur;617992KS aren't actually able to extract money from James to refund to backers, though - the most they can do is, I dunno, pull the Kickstarter page or something.
I'm told angry backers have received refunds straight from Grognardia himself, but if he's no longer answering mail...?
Quote from: Warthur;617992Wait, does James have the Kickstarter money for this too? That would be idiotic - there'd be no reason for him to hold the money which would be used to fulfill those rewards and insane for Autarch to fund all of those rewards out of their own pockets. There really needs to be a bit more transparency as to what proportion of the money has been budgeted for what purpose.
Yes to the first part. But I believe when I suggested costing out projects a few months ago, you could hear the lamentations all the way over in old Aquilonia.
"How dare you! This is not a business! Nobody in the OSR would ever think of earning a profit on a hobby! Are you a communist? Are you against free enterprise? Creative types deserve to earn a good living! You don't know how hard it is!"
And so it goes.
Quote from: Prince Lordly Manly Man;617989blah blah
Goodbye, Kent.
Quote from: Warthur;617992KS aren't actually able to extract money from James to refund to backers, though - the most they can do is, I dunno, pull the Kickstarter page or something.
Wait, does James have the Kickstarter money for this too? That would be idiotic - there'd be no reason for him to hold the money which would be used to fulfill those rewards and insane for Autarch to fund all of those rewards out of their own pockets. There really needs to be a bit more transparency as to what proportion of the money has been budgeted for what purpose.
As far as I know, all funding from the kickstarter went to James via Autarch. Autarch ran the KS and collected the funds and they are the ones legally responsible for making good on the rewards or refunding any money.
What we don't know is what kind of agreement or contract was in place between James M. and Autarch.
Quote from: econobus;617957But a class action suit for $45,000 is worth a vulture suiting up to start circling...
No, it's not. I don't know of any lawyer who would attempt a class action over $45K. $45K is lower than the threshold for some standard business litigation attorneys, much less a class action. Class actions cost a lot of money to put on.
Quote from: Mistwell;618001No, it's not. I don't know of any lawyer who would attempt a class action over $45K. $45K is lower than the threshold for some standard business litigation attorneys, much less a class action. Class actions cost a lot of money to put on.
You must run with a fancier crowd. Small class, small claim, big pro bono PR for someone with extra hours to fill and an axe to grind.
Quote from: Mistwell;618001No, it's not. I don't know of any lawyer who would attempt a class action over $45K. $45K is lower than the threshold for some standard business litigation attorneys, much less a class action. Class actions cost a lot of money to put on.
Yeah, I suspect if anyone actually sues Autarch it'll be one of the higher-tier backers taking them to small claims court. The only people really in a position to sue for the full $45K are Autarch and that's only happening if their interactions with James sour to the point where they cease wanting to be pals with him.
Quote from: Warthur;618004Yeah, I suspect if anyone actually sues Autarch it'll be one of the higher-tier backers taking them to small claims court. The only people really in a position to sue for the full $45K are Autarch and that's only happening if their interactions with James sour to the point where they cease wanting to be pals with him.
Hypothetically, what would it take to move such a case from civil court, to the criminal justice system?
Quote from: econobus;618002You must run with a fancier crowd. Small class, small claim, big pro bono PR for someone with extra hours to fill and an axe to grind.
Pro Bono?
Double no. Come on now...I a not talking fancier crowd, there is NO chance you would do a class action over such a small sum of money. None. I don't think you appreciate the complexity simply qualifying for a class action, much less pursuing one, entails. The threshold to just file in some New York counties for a commercial matter requires $100,000 in dispute, and by its nature this is a multi-state dispute, and I am not even sure the defendants are in the same state.
Quote from: econobus;618002You must run with a fancier crowd. Small class, small claim, big pro bono PR for someone with extra hours to fill and an axe to grind.
Not to mention the attention a Kickstarter case would bring, it's free advertising.
Quote from: CRKrueger;618014Not to mention the attention a Kickstarter case would bring, it's free advertising.
We have a winner.
Haha good lord what a mess. I want to have no sympathy for James M...but ggroy's awful post a few pages back made me wonder how much hate mail like that he's actually received over this...which gives me a little bit of sympathy. One tiny candle.
Quote from: ggroy;618012Hypothetically, what would it take to move such a case from civil court, to the criminal justice system?
Provide proof that a crime has been commited.
Quote from: CRKrueger;618014Not to mention the attention a Kickstarter case would bring, it's free advertising.
The point of working for nothing to advertise the fact that you take cases that pay little to nothing is what exactly?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;618019Provide proof that a crime has been commited.
Wonder if something like this could fall under mail and wire fraud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_and_wire_fraud
Quote from: CRKrueger;618014Not to mention the attention a Kickstarter case would bring, it's free advertising.
Because law firms love advertising the fact that they take cases for fat beard RPG nerds.
Quote from: ggroy;618022Wonder if something like this could fall under mail and wire fraud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_and_wire_fraud
The KS terms were agreed to by Autarch so they are the ones that will need to deliver or refund backers. We haven't heard anything from Tavis indicating that they will not make good on the KS promises.
Only Autarch has any kind of case against James. Fraud wouldn't be applicable because of all the submitted work has shown that James was making a good faith effort to complete the project.
The devil is in the contract (or lack of it) between James and Autarch. That is ultimately what will determine the remedies available to Autarch.
Quote from: Libramarian;618018wonder how much hate mail like that he's actually received over this...which gives me a little bit of sympathy.
Most likely he's numb to vitriolic posts/emails, considering he's been popular online for many years in the tabletop rpg niche.
The more popular someone is, the bigger of a target they become for vitriol.
Quote from: ggroy;618029Most likely he's numb to vitriolic posts/emails, considering he's been popular online for many years in the tabletop rpg niche.
That's not the case in this instance.
There could be a lot of explanations. I hope it's "Sorry guys, I dropped my laptop in a puddle and couldn't access the web for a little while". I hope it isn't "They think they can save at least one of my hands". I really hope it isn't "Send no flowers".
I'm not a lawyer but I'd always imagined pro bono work is something you do for civil rights groups, war widows and donkey sanctuaries. I can't envisage a lawyer representing someone who lost $45 on a kickstarter, but let's imagine that it does happen and you put Autarch out of business. Who wins from that?
The dude who's got his $47 back.
Yeah. I know. :(
Quote from: Benoist;618034The dude who's got his $47 back.
Yeah. I know. :(
You think Autarch has assets worth $45K?
Quote from: P&P;618038You think Autarch has assets worth $45K?
No way. And honestly, maybe I wasn't clear with my tongue-in-cheek answer, but if the point is for lambda gamer to get $47 back at the end of the day, then nobody wins out of this. Yay, you got your money back, and sunk a decent RPG publisher out of this. Good job, I guess? /sarcasm
Quote from: P&P;618038You think Autarch has assets worth $45K?
Depends on how the company Autarch is structured.
If it's some sort of corporation, LLC, etc ..., then probably not likely.
If it's a sole proprietorship or some general partnership, then in principle the owner(s) may have assets which can add up to $45K, in the form of personal possessions, homes, cars, personal bank accounts, toys, etc ...
Quote from: ggroy;618047Depends on how the company Autarch is structured.
If it's some sort of corporation, LLC, etc ..., then probably not likely.
If it's a sole proprietorship or some general partnership, then in principle the owner(s) may have assets which can add up to $45K, in the form of personal possessions, homes, cars, bank accounts, etc ...
Even better. You want to throw people out on the street because you want your fifty bucks back? That'd be stupid. Honestly.
Quote from: noisms;618023Because law firms love advertising the fact that they take cases for fat beard RPG nerds.
Unless it's criminal, no one cares who you're working
for. Civil is all about who you are working
against, and being one of the first to get a verdict or judgement delivered in an area of relatively new law gets you into Law Reviews, and your case maybe even referred to as a precedent. Pure fucking gold for a lawyer who isn't already a partner in a fat cat law firm.
Quote from: ggroy;618047Depends on how the company Autarch is structured.
Here's a clue for you. Go to http://www.autarch.co/ and look at the logo at the top left.
Quote from: ggroy;618047Depends on how the company Autarch is structured.
Let's leave our friends at Autarch alone. Let's even leave Grognardia alone, even though he's the big "winner" if somehow he avoids either delivering the product or a refund.
Amazon Payment ran the transactions and as far as I know their obligations in a KS failure are as nebulous as their pockets are deep. Vultures. Suiting. Circling. To be in position when it comes time to take that big shot at a settlement.
And in the meantime some beards may get the refund they would have been legally entitled to receive if this had been structured as a legitimate pre-order anyway. Hooray for the OSR community, band of brothers.
Quote from: Libramarian;618018One tiny candle.
(http://gifs.gifbin.com/102010/1287507817_kid-blows-girls-candles.gif)
. . .
okay, I'll stop now.
This is really, really sad. Autarch have a KS coming out soon enough and I hope it's not shot down by this Dwimmermount thing.
I have no reason to think James Maliszewski is a crook. He seems to have over-promised on a RPG-related project, but that doesn't make him a thief. I think he'll deliver a product eventually.
Now, J-Mal's intelligent enough to realise what will happen when it does get released, which is that Erik Tenkar will review it, and so will a whole bunch of other people, and in their reviews they will piss all over Dwimmermount from a truly dizzying height. 2,000cp and the empty rooms is already all over the web... there's no way for J-Mal to avoid a massive amount of personal criticism on release. And I think he's a rather sensitive soul who won't take it well at all.
(And that unenthusiasm for release may have a lot to do with the reasons for the delay. I hope I'm right in thinking that, because the other reasons for J-Mal going out of contact that I can think of are less pleasant.)
Somehow, I don't find it likely James took the money and ran. If he wanted to do that, he would have done it before turning over a bunch of drafts - which he did. It is infinitely more likely he burned himself out or got into some hard IRL situation. Of course, that doesn't stop him being liable to deliver several thousand bucks worth of material to his backers, but I wouldn't attribute to malice something that looks more like good old human error.
(Says the guy who put 100 bucks in Cleve Blakemore's pockets. ;))
[edit]Beaten by P&P[/edit]
Quote from: P&P;618063And I think he's a rather sensitive soul who won't take it well at all.
He's also happy to list his freelancer credits as a roleplaying game writer in his CV.
None of us really have any way of knowing for sure what's going on. My wag, to throw on the pile with everyone else's, is that he overpromised and underperformed and he's having a hard time keeping his head up about it.
In the interest of "clearing the air" of some of the guesswork:
Autarch is an LLC. Autarch LLC has a written, signed contract with James. The contract assigns all funds to James in exchange for his assumption of responsibility for development of the Product and delivery of the rewards. All IP related to the product are the exclusive property of James. Autarch is not the publisher of Dwimmermount and has no distribution rights. In exchange for our services, Autarch and James agreed to cooperate in good faith to promote each other's brand and business.
That's the contract boiled down. E.g. we have none of the funds, none of the IP, and no rights except to mutual publicity. I think it's objective truth that we've worked hard to promote Dwimmermount as per our contract.
Thanks for the insider perspective.
Sounds almost like a zero liability contract with James M.
Quote from: amacris;618084In the interest of "clearing the air" of some of the guesswork:
Autarch is an LLC. Autarch LLC has a written, signed contract with James. The contract assigns all funds to James in exchange for his assumption of responsibility for development of the Product and delivery of the rewards. All IP related to the product are the exclusive property of James. Autarch is not the publisher of Dwimmermount and has no distribution rights. In exchange for our services, Autarch and James agreed to cooperate in good faith to promote each other's brand and business.
That's the contract boiled down. E.g. we have none of the funds, none of the IP, and no rights except to mutual publicity. I think it's objective truth that we've worked hard to promote Dwimmermount as per our contract.
It's absolutely true that Autarch has gone above and beyond to promote Dwimmermount and keep the lines of communication open with the backers.
That said, this rather unorthodox arrangement probably should have been disclosed upfront in the Kickstarter itself because it means that the backers' money didn't go to the name attached to the Kickstarter itself.
Wait a second.
Quote from: Fiasco;617777Returning to this thread after some months and it looks like James has dropped off the radar completely and isn't even communicating with Tavis:
"I don't have any information on the reasons for James' silence, but the project is stalled as a result. Autarch is looking into our options if he remains out of contact. I'll post an update as soon as I hear from him, or once we work out the best course of action if that doesn't happen."
Wow.
Would you mind linking to the original source of this statement? It's not on G+ or over at the Autarch web site, at least not anywhere where I can find it.
Quote from: P&P;618063I have no reason to think James Maliszewski is a crook.
Quote from: Melan;618064Somehow, I don't find it likely James took the money and ran.
I don't think that's the case either. At this point I don't have a lot of concern about the $10 (or was it $5?) I put down for the PDF reward, or even whether Dwimmermount will be an endless repetition of empty room interspersed with giant rats and 2000cp. I'm happy if it doesn't hurt Autarch, currently one of the few outfits in the game industry towards which I feel anything resembling loyalty as a customer; we seem to have very, very similar ideas of just what D&D is about.
And of course, I hope all is well with the man, and that it's just the usual IRL distractions getting in the way of work.
Quote from: The Butcher;618090Wait a second.
Would you mind linking to the original source of this statement? It's not on G+ or over at the Autarch web site, at least not anywhere where I can find it.
It's on the backer updates on the Kickstarter.
Quote from: amacris;618084That's the contract boiled down. E.g. we have none of the funds, none of the IP, and no rights except to mutual publicity. I think it's objective truth that we've worked hard to promote Dwimmermount as per our contract.
Well, I'm glad to hear you covered yourselves on this score and you're not left holding the can on this one.
Quote from: The Butcher;618090I don't think that's the case either. At this point I don't have a lot of concern about the $10 (or was it $5?) I put down for the PDF reward, or even whether Dwimmermount will be an endless repetition of empty room interspersed with giant rats and 2000cp. I'm happy if it doesn't hurt Autarch, currently one of the few outfits in the game industry towards which I feel anything resembling loyalty as a customer; we seem to have very, very similar ideas of just what D&D is about.
And of course, I hope all is well with the man, and that it's just the usual IRL distractions getting in the way of work.
I'm in the same boat. I threw in for around the $10 level--now, that means I'm probably not as irritable over this over someone who dropped $100 or more, but as much as the delays have been unwelcome, I'm not holding it against Autarch. It's a poor situation for everyone, and having a product delayed or turned vaporware in (to say the least) odd circumstances is not enough for me to disparage what has been an outfit that has been more than square in their dealings with me up to this point.
What happened to Petty Gods ?
The manuscript seems to be done. It might not exciting as I had hoped (the last level is extremely vague), but it's not all giant rats and 2000 cps either.
Worst case scenario, just have them print out the existing manuscript at Lulu.com or something. How much is a 120 or so page hardback at cost? Can't be that much $15?
Yeah yeah yeah, no art, but let's be honest, most OSR stuff has minimal art.
Quote from: JeremyR;618121The manuscript seems to be done. It might not exciting as I had hoped (the last level is extremely vague), but it's not all giant rats and 2000 cps either.
Worst case scenario, just have them print out the existing manuscript at Lulu.com or something. How much is a 120 or so page hardback at cost? Can't be that much $15?
Yeah yeah yeah, no art, but let's be honest, most OSR stuff has minimal art.
They can't. They don't have the IP rights to it.
Quote from: Sean !;618119What happened to Petty Gods ?
He made some noise about finishing it a couple months ago and got people to do more art for it. And then promptly disappeared.
Quote from: misterguignol;618125They can't. They don't have the IP rights to it.
I was actually speaking of James M, so yeah, should have just said "him". It looks like there are about 600 hardcovers owed, so unless he's burned through the whole amount in less than a year, he should be able to at least do what I suggested. Not great, but better than nothing.
But Autarch must have some sort of agreement, otherwise how can they host the manuscript on their servers?
Indeed, looking at the KS, it constantly says "We" will do this, "We" will do that and refers to James in the third person.
Beyond that, I have to think there is something in Kickstarter's terms of service that prohibits one company running a KS for someone else, then absolve themselves of all responsibility if it goes bad. "Oh wait, it wasn't really our KS"
I don't really hold Autarch at fault, but they really shouldn't have misled people like that in the KS project, giving the impression that they were more heavily involved. It sounded like James was just doing the writing, they did the rest.
Quote from: misterguignol;618126He made some noise about finishing it a couple months ago and got people to do more art for it. And then promptly disappeared.
Petty Gods was the one I was more interested in... it seemed to be rolling along at good speed for a while. A long while back I asked him what was up with it and he gave a reply that his layout/graphics person had ditched and he'd probably have to end up doing it himself.
Quote from: JeremyR;618133I was actually speaking of James M, so yeah, should have just said "him". It looks like there are about 600 hardcovers owed, so unless he's burned through the whole amount in less than a year, he should be able to at least do what I suggested. Not great, but better than nothing.
But Autarch must have some sort of agreement, otherwise how can they host the manuscript on their servers?
Indeed, looking at the KS, it constantly says "We" will do this, "We" will do that and refers to James in the third person.
Beyond that, I have to think there is something in Kickstarter's terms of service that prohibits one company running a KS for someone else, then absolve themselves of all responsibility if it goes bad. "Oh wait, it wasn't really our KS"
I don't really hold Autarch at fault, but they really shouldn't have misled people like that in the KS project, giving the impression that they were more heavily involved. It sounded like James was just doing the writing, they did the rest.
There is no doubt that we (Autarch) did a lot of things wrong. Tavis and I are still hopeful that the end result will be one that makes the backers happy, but we are figuring out what we can do for everyone involved if there's a worst-case scenario.
Quote from: amacris;618151There is no doubt that we (Autarch) did a lot of things wrong. Tavis and I are still hopeful that the end result will be one that makes the backers happy, but we are figuring out what we can do for everyone involved if there's a worst-case scenario.
If I may offer a bit of unsolicited advice, I think you guys have a pretty good reputation, and the key thing (outside of staying on James to complete the product if possible) will just be communication with the fans. Few things are as irritating as simply being in the dark and wondering what's going on.
Best of luck to you guys in what I'm sure is a trying situation.
Quote from: Melan;618064Somehow, I don't find it likely James took the money and ran. If he wanted to do that, he would have done it before turning over a bunch of drafts - which he did. It is infinitely more likely he burned himself out or got into some hard IRL situation. Of course, that doesn't stop him being liable to deliver several thousand bucks worth of material to his backers, but I wouldn't attribute to malice something that looks more like good old human error.
(Says the guy who put 100 bucks in Cleve Blakemore's pockets. ;))
[edit]Beaten by P&P[/edit]
He's definitely not a crook, but I don't think he made a completely honest mistake either. It's hard to believe that someone who has written RPGs professionally in the past, and kept a D&D blog going for 4 years could misjudge his capacity to produce so badly.
I think when he was setting up the kickstarter part of his brain was saying "whoa whoa, do we know how much work this is going to be and whether we'll want to do it?" and he chose not to listen to that part.
Also there's the element of more stretch goals being hit than he expected and those breaking the camel's back.
Quote from: ggroy;617855For extra-legal options for hardcore type individuals who take the law into their own hands :D, there's always:
- Physically knocking on JamesM's front door and asking him some hard questions, while filming the encounter for later uploading to youtube.
- Ambushing him when he's walking home or while he is shopping, while filming everything.
- etc ...
(For really extreme hardcore individuals).
- Threatening him with physical violence, after encountering him in person.
- Shooting him dead with a gun.
- etc ...
:rolleyes: :D
I don't care how much you think you were being funny or whatever other excuses you make, recommending that people commit this kind of violence in such a way that is far from clear absurdity is not something you should ever do again in this site.
RPGPundit
Quote from: amacris;618151There is no doubt that we (Autarch) did a lot of things wrong. Tavis and I are still hopeful that the end result will be one that makes the backers happy, but we are figuring out what we can do for everyone involved if there's a worst-case scenario.
A suggestion: it may be worth making less of the updates on the Kickstarter site backer-only. Remember that this isn't just a money issue between you and the backers, it's a PR issue in which you run the risk of losing the confidence of backers and non-backers alike. Yes, people jumping to conclusions based on limited information are not necessarily in the right, but when there's limited information out there it's all they can do.
Quote from: Simlasa;618134Petty Gods was the one I was more interested in... it seemed to be rolling along at good speed for a while. A long while back I asked him what was up with it and he gave a reply that his layout/graphics person had ditched and he'd probably have to end up doing it himself.
2 words. Pat W
of Anomalous Subsurface Environment; he did his own layout for ASE, so I'm sure someone could do it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;618194I don't care how much you think you were being funny or whatever other excuses you make, recommending that people commit this kind of violence in such a way that is far from clear absurdity is not something you should ever do again in this site.
RPGPundit
I'm sorry.
Won't happen again.
Quote from: Melan;618064(Says the guy who put 100 bucks in Cleve Blakemore's pockets. ;))
ffff
YOU DID WHAT???
Quote from: noisms;618023Because law firms love advertising the fact that they take cases for fat beard RPG nerds.
Better call Saul!
(http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/720404_o.gif)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;618263ffff
YOU DID WHAT???
Sometimes you have to stand up for your foolish dreams, and Grimoire is mine. I have wanted that game since 1999, and pledged with the full knowledge the money might be contributing to an enormous explosion of Internet drama. Still worth it, damnit! :hatsoff:
Quote from: Melan;618270Sometimes you have to stand up for your foolish dreams, and Grimoire is mine. I have wanted that game since 1999, and pledged with the full knowledge the money might be contributing to an enormous explosion of Internet drama. Still worth it, damnit! :hatsoff:
You realize you're talking about a game that has been in "production" for almost 20 years, right?
Quote from: Planet Algol;6182132 words. Pat W
of Anomalous Subsurface Environment
To clarify - I'm pretty sure I'm just being held up by Planet Algol as an example of do-it-yourself layout. I don't have anything to do with Petty Gods layout.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;618271You realize you're talking about a game that has been in "production" for almost 20 years, right?
Yes, and also that the creator is a bunker-dwelling lunatic who considers himself a descendant of Neanderthals. Still. There
are videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/TexasArcane/videos?view=0&flow=grid) of the game, and I have even played a very early beta, which was, like, metric tons of pure old school CRPG fun. So there is that.
And hey. The sheer audacity of a megalomaniac Wizardry clone intrigues me, way more than a megadungeon that's all too heavy on rooms full of 2000 cp guarded by giant rats.
Quote from: PatW;618273To clarify - I'm pretty sure I'm just being held up by Planet Algol as an example of do-it-yourself layout. I don't have anything to do with Petty Gods layout.
Whoops! Pat's right.
Quote from: PatW;618273To clarify - I'm pretty sure I'm just being held up by Planet Algol as an example of do-it-yourself layout. I don't have anything to do with Petty Gods layout.
That's how I read it. Still, unless you already had some skill in that area learning/doing your own could seem like a decent sized obstacle... particularly when you'd assume all along that someone else was gonna handle it.
Quote from: Panjumanju;617917This behaviour will ruin kickstarter for everyone else.
//Panjumanju
This is what I'm suspecting too. The next model of project-funding will learn from its mistakes, however. This is a new way of doing business, and I think it will very much be the way of the future.
RPGPundit
Quote from: econobus;617996I'm told angry backers have received refunds straight from Grognardia himself, but if he's no longer answering mail...?
Yes to the first part. But I believe when I suggested costing out projects a few months ago, you could hear the lamentations all the way over in old Aquilonia.
"How dare you! This is not a business! Nobody in the OSR would ever think of earning a profit on a hobby! Are you a communist? Are you against free enterprise? Creative types deserve to earn a good living! You don't know how hard it is!"
And so it goes.
It certainly does sound like there's some very very bad business choices going on here. This project was not well thought-through.
It is of interest to me, because in theory I might someday do something very similar; not a megadungeon, but a project where I am doing the writing, and someone else (a publisher) is handling the kickstarter fundraiser.
The way I would handle this would be as follows, which I would have thought is just common sense:
1. Write the full first-draft manuscript of the book.
2. Only then START the kickstarter.
3. When the kickstarter funds, the PUBLISHER gets the money, and from this money subtracts the cost of art, editing, etc., plus their own cut, and gives me the difference. The publisher then gets all the editing and art done.
4. The book is published, the backers are happy, and then the publisher and I continue to split profits from additional sales.
I didn't realize that this was a difficult model to envision.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;618354The way I would handle this would be as follows, which I would have thought is just common sense:
1. Write the full first-draft manuscript of the book.
2. Only then START the kickstarter.
3. When the kickstarter funds, the PUBLISHER gets the money, and from this money subtracts the cost of art, editing, etc., plus their own cut, and gives me the difference. The publisher then gets all the editing and art done.
4. The book is published, the backers are happy, and then the publisher and I continue to split profits from additional sales.
I didn't realize that this was a difficult model to envision.
Having been dragged behind the scenes of a KS campaign (not on the creative side, thank God), I can now report that even the for-profit mindset would be unrecognizable by conventional publishing standards.
The objective, as it was explained to me, is to print to meet backer rewards, with maybe a tiny bit of overage. No distribution, no inventory, no post-KS sales of any kind. Pick a price point for the standard no-frills reward level (generally the "book" or the "game") and multiply it by the minimum number of pieces your printer will run. Add in any pre-existing production costs (creative, licensing, whatever) and that's your funding goal. Build out additional rewards from there.
Where things get interesting is that now your "profit" on the core product boils down to any funding you attract above that minimum break-even point minus any add-on printing costs. You can return some or all of that money to the backers in the form of stretch rewards. You can return some or all of that money to creative, effectively paying them a bonus. (Does anyone do this?) And you can always keep as much as you like as de facto "publisher."
Assuming you make your goal and deliver your rewards, the product is effectively done because you printed to KS demand and are now sold out. You can reprint if you like or -- as some are now doing -- move on to the next KS campaign. Running kickstarters has become your "job." Creating products to fulfill backer rewards is secondary. It's your excuse to "hold a kickstarter."
It's interesting. What it really reminds me of is starting a company to attract venture capital [backer funding], having a grand time and then moving on to the next big idea when the money's gone. Only now the VC fat cats are, you know, dice dorks.
Quote from: RPGPundit;618354The way I would handle this would be as follows, which I would have thought is just common sense:
1. Write the full first-draft manuscript of the book.
2. Only then START the kickstarter.
3. When the kickstarter funds, the PUBLISHER gets the money, and from this money subtracts the cost of art, editing, etc., plus their own cut, and gives me the difference. The publisher then gets all the editing and art done.
4. The book is published, the backers are happy, and then the publisher and I continue to split profits from additional sales.
I agree with this. I'm thinking of doing a kickstarter myself, and my plan looks similar:
1. Write the full first-draft manuscript of the book.
2. Commission some art and layout as a sampler for the KS page.
3. Only then start the kickstarter.
4. When the kickstarter funds, immediately send out the draft manuscript to all backers so even if I get hit by a comet they have received
something for their money. Then pay for the rest of the art, an editor, and layout, and send out the finished books as soon as they're done. I keep any leftover money and the profits from any POD or PDF sales later down the line.
To take money and not provide a product is just immoral IMO.
Quote from: econobus;618382Having been dragged behind the scenes of a KS campaign (not on the creative side, thank God), I can now report that even the for-profit mindset would be unrecognizable by conventional publishing standards.
The objective, as it was explained to me, is to print to meet backer rewards, with maybe a tiny bit of overage. No distribution, no inventory, no post-KS sales of any kind. Pick a price point for the standard no-frills reward level (generally the "book" or the "game") and multiply it by the minimum number of pieces your printer will run. Add in any pre-existing production costs (creative, licensing, whatever) and that's your funding goal. Build out additional rewards from there.
Where things get interesting is that now your "profit" on the core product boils down to any funding you attract above that minimum break-even point minus any add-on printing costs. You can return some or all of that money to the backers in the form of stretch rewards. You can return some or all of that money to creative, effectively paying them a bonus. (Does anyone do this?) And you can always keep as much as you like as de facto "publisher."
Assuming you make your goal and deliver your rewards, the product is effectively done because you printed to KS demand and are now sold out. You can reprint if you like or -- as some are now doing -- move on to the next KS campaign. Running kickstarters has become your "job." Creating products to fulfill backer rewards is secondary. It's your excuse to "hold a kickstarter."
It's interesting. What it really reminds me of is starting a company to attract venture capital [backer funding], having a grand time and then moving on to the next big idea when the money's gone. Only now the VC fat cats are, you know, dice dorks.
The bigger, smarter companies can make a lot of money on up sells. When you get the survey post funding you have the opportunity to buy a bunch of other stuff that is already on their inventory. Likewise some structure backer levels with extra stuff that is already on inventory and with a profit built in.
Finally the higher backer levels have enormous profits built in.
EDIT. James Raggi did a profit share with his writers for his last Indiegogo kickstarter.
... or you could just write a product and sell it without using Kickstarter at all. That way people can read the reviews before they decide whether or not to buy it. And if you find a mistake you can update your files to limit the number of people who get a defective product.
Quote from: P&P;618408... or you could just write a product and sell it without using Kickstarter at all. That way people can read the reviews before they decide whether or not to buy it. And if you find a mistake you can update your files to limit the number of people who get a defective product.
There is one advantage to Kickstarter from the commercial POV, though: a lot of people will pay premium for a product promoted on KS they would never pay through other venues, partly for content they perceive as "exclusive" or "a limited offer", and partly because it gives them the warm fuzzies to throw in a few more for the Good Cause.
Quote from: Fiasco;618404The bigger, smarter companies can make a lot of money on up sells. When you get the survey post funding you have the opportunity to buy a bunch of other stuff that is already on their inventory. Likewise some structure backer levels with extra stuff that is already on inventory and with a profit built in.
Oh yeah. It's like pre-selling someone an entire game line in one box that you once would have doled out to them at the rate of one splatbook or other add-on a month. Click here for extra bumper stickers, T shirts, coffee mugs.
I haven't seen anyone leveraging the backer mailing lists to solicit new products yet, but it's another natural next step. "Hey, we thought you might want to know the next book is coming out, wanna fund?"
Quote from: fiasco;618404Finally the higher backer levels have enormous profits built in.
As a fool who just spent well over $1 a page for uh, a lot of pages of rare, priceless, never-seen omg Glorantha material, I take your point! But they had that stuff lying around and this is their chance to monetize die-hard (crazy) fan base -- pure profit. Other KS organizers seem to be choking on their high-end rewards and that's not a good sign.
Ironically we took a pass on a lot of rewards that would have been pure, sweet profit -- "meet the creator, tell him about your character, get your name on the map" -- because they were too labor-intensive for creative. Instead we went with a lot of material rewards that are probably going to eat us alive at the printer.
Quote from: fiasco;618404EDIT. James Raggi did a profit share with his writers for his last Indiegogo kickstarter.
Yeah! I thought of him too late as well. Love or hate, in terms of emerging best practices that's probably one for the case study books.
I don't think Dwimmermount is going to wreck kickstarter. Eventually something will come out, it'll be good or not good, but something will end up in backers' hands. Then by the next year, the whole thing will be forgotten. Even if it isn't finished, Dwimmermount will just become filler for one of those "List Some Vapourware" forum threads. I wouldn't blame Autarch or Kickstarter or Amazon if the KS fails.
As long as most kickstarters work out ok (which up til now they have) a few failures won't drive people away. James M, however, may never recover his reputation unless Dwimmermount is something stellar, which I'm not sure it can be.
What I see as a negative to KS is the amount of hours the project developers have to put in. I mean, if Autarch made any money of Dwimmermount, it's all been eaten up by the hours spent on updates, calculating stretch goals, responding to messages, etc. A simple pre-order gives me the same product, but saves the developers weeks and weeks of "Hey Guys! Check Out What We Got For You This Week If We Get Past $5000!!!" To all KS developers, my sympathies.
Quote from: languagegeek;618417What I see as a negative to KS is the amount of hours the project developers have to put in. I mean, if Autarch made any money of Dwimmermount, it's all been eaten up by the hours spent on updates, calculating stretch goals, responding to messages, etc. A simple pre-order gives me the same product, but saves the developers weeks and weeks of "Hey Guys! Check Out What We Got For You This Week If We Get Past $5000!!!" To all KS developers, my sympathies.
Shhhh! "These aren't anything like 'pre-orders,' these are fun and Web 2.0 and you get to be an INVESTOR, well not an investor but you get to feel like you're an art PATRON and be part of the process and because it's explicitly NOT a formal ordering transaction we don't know how the Fair Credit Billing Act dispute system will apply and did I say that last part out loud?"
But yeah, the cost of running one of these starts to cut into the "winnings," making people more eager to reach for an insane funding total in order to make it all worthwhile. Madness! And some people just want to make stuff.
Quote from: Melan;618414There is one advantage to Kickstarter from the commercial POV, though: a lot of people will pay premium for a product promoted on KS they would never pay through other venues, partly for content they perceive as "exclusive" or "a limited offer", and partly because it gives them the warm fuzzies to throw in a few more for the Good Cause.
I would think that the main advantage of using KS even for a product that's fully written, laid out, etc., is that--assuming a print product--it lets you size your initial print run for maximum economy. Or, if it doesn't fund, you return the money and you don't print.
Current technology and the size of the RPG market may make this moot, not sure. But it's similar to the P500 model used by wargame companies, and might still apply for products that are more than just books (e.g. if they include miniatures or die-cut counters).
It's fairly obvious at this point that some publishers are using Kickstarter purely for the publicity, rather than any actual need for funding to get the product on shelves. I saw one recently which doesn't even include a "why we need your money" section.
In general for RPG products I think there are three main reasons to go the KS route that make sense to me as a consumer. One is "we need money for printing". The other is "we need money to pay for art/other dev costs". The third, which in many ways I think is the weakest, which would be "we're using this to see if anyone's interested". When I say it's the weakest I just mean it's the one which feels the most like a pre-order, but it's also the one which is most vulnerable to things like Dwimmermount, where we're at the "I've got an idea and have done very little work" stage.
Quote from: Grymbok;618429The third, which in many ways I think is the weakest, which would be "we're using this to see if anyone's interested". When I say it's the weakest I just mean it's the one which feels the most like a pre-order, but it's also the one which is most vulnerable to things like Dwimmermount, where we're at the "I've got an idea and have done very little work" stage.
Yeah. I think that's where a lot of the "gold rush" types are now: using KS as a demand discovery engine. If you see that 100 or 200 or 3,000 people are into your dream enough that they'll vote with their wallets, you do it. Otherwise, you try something else, see what's on TV, get up and hit the day job.
This is kind of sad because it's only what conventional publishers did with pre-press solicitations. You ask around, find out how many copies people will commit to order. You print roughly that many and then see how the reorders shape up. There's no "dream" about that, no "investment," no "philanthropy." It's just you finding out in advance what kind of demand is out there for your thing. And it was never rocket science.
Now I'm chatting through the big news on Dwimmermount, which is that Tavis has apparently officially handed the ball over and gone home.
Erik Tenkar's Google+ is abuzz: https://plus.google.com/113341752897675495824/posts [Pundit, sorry if this is what you consider a naked link.]
Quote from: econobus;618432Now I'm chatting through the big news on Dwimmermount, which is that Tavis has apparently officially handed the ball over and gone home.
Erik Tenkar's Google+ is abuzz: https://plus.google.com/113341752897675495824/posts [Pundit, sorry if this is what you consider a naked link.]
My read on that one was more that Tavis is basically saying "there's nothing we can do until James gets in touch", rather than "I give up, let's forget this ever happened".
Kickstarter is primarily a way of monetising brand loyalty.
Doesn't seem too positive to me. Anybody that's expecting this to completion hopefully will have a lot of patience. James seems to be in a sad state, and in many cases, when somebody is feeling the heat (whether real or imagined) on the internet, they tend to shut it down.
Quote from: Melan;618414There is one advantage to Kickstarter from the commercial POV, though: a lot of people will pay premium for a product promoted on KS they would never pay through other venues, partly for content they perceive as "exclusive" or "a limited offer", and partly because it gives them the warm fuzzies to throw in a few more for the Good Cause.
I think there are several advantages to Kickstarter, but they're all advantages for the seller.
Quote from: Zachary The First;618160If I may offer a bit of unsolicited advice, I think you guys have a pretty good reputation, and the key thing (outside of staying on James to complete the product if possible) will just be communication with the fans. Few things are as irritating as simply being in the dark and wondering what's going on.
Best of luck to you guys in what I'm sure is a trying situation.
I second this advice.
RPGPundit
Quote from: languagegeek;618417As long as most kickstarters work out ok (which up til now they have) a few failures won't drive people away.
More generally, has there been any high profile Kickstarter project failures yet?
(Such as cases which turned out to be an outright scam, where they just took all the money and disappeared without a trace, without producing anything).
Quote from: ggroy;618477More generally, has there been any high profile Kickstarter project failures yet?
(Such as cases which turned out to be an outright scam, where they just took all the money and disappeared without a trace, without producing anything).
Well, in the RPG world, GM Sarli's vaporware e20 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gmsarli/game-design-e20-system-evolved-roleplaying-gam-0) resulted in a complaint to the Texas Attorney General: http://www.geeknative.com/36183/e20-rpg-kickstarter-failure-results-in-complaint-to-texas-state-attorney-general/ (http://www.geeknative.com/36183/e20-rpg-kickstarter-failure-results-in-complaint-to-texas-state-attorney-general/)
It's coming up on 2 years since being funded, and there's been little progress, and there currently seems to be even less hope.
Quote from: languagegeek;618417James M, however, may never recover his reputation unless Dwimmermount is something stellar, which I'm not sure it can be.
I never understood the big reputation JamesM had in the first place, other than being a popular old school rpg blogger who wrote a lot of semi-daily articles for several years (until about a month ago or so).
Outside of blogging, his previous published d20-era rpg books don't particularly stand out (which show up on amazon). Several of them I still have.
In the future, I certainly won't contribute to any future Kickstarters under JamesM's primary authorship. Though I may possibly pick up some of his published books, if I found them at a bookstore and the content looked interesting. (I can keep separate the man's personal reputation, independent of the content/substance of his written work, if I am not asked to plunk down some cash in advance).
Quote from: ggroy;618477More generally, has there been any high profile Kickstarter project failures yet?
(Such as cases which turned out to be an outright scam, where they just took all the money and disappeared without a trace, without producing anything).
Most tend to just dry out, such as Haunts (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2066438441/haunts-the-manse-macabre/posts). Most overt scams tend to be caught before funding completes, such as the ludicrous MYTHIC (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/273246798/mythic-the-story-of-gods-and-men).
My own personal guess is that James didn't know what he was getting into. The greatest dungeons are shaped by actual play. There's a need then to add stuff throughout the course of a campaign, and the oneupmanship required only makes things better over time.
You can't really come up with an entire megadungeon cold turkey like this, or it takes some time. A tremendous amount of time. You might (and will) have an outline of the levels, know generally what's where, but you rarely if ever will come up with the entire dungeon out of a theoretical vacuum like you write an adventure module or some such.
So he played his home campaign, the group liked the three first levels, he talked about it in his blog and so on. Buzz. The kickstarter then occurs, goes well, maybe too well, prompting the creation of secret levels and all that stuff. And then he writes... and he realizes just what I am talking about here. Panic. Closing on himself, pretending the problem isn't there at first but ultimately fleeing the situation because it becomes unmanageable.
Maybe he'll finish it. Maybe not. I just hope that he'll be okay - I don't wish to be in such a bad place to anybody, ever. It could be really bad, and I hope that if it is, he can work up the courage to face the situation, and own up to his personal responsibilities.
Quote from: Warthur;617839From a legal standpoint here's my take:
- From the point of view of the backers, since Autarch were running the Kickstarter the backers in effect have a contract with Autarch to deliver the product. All of the legal prerequisites for a contract to be in place a present, and the backers have provided their side of the bargain (the money) so the backers would have a good case for a breach of contract lawsuit.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;617912Sounds like the backers need to contact KS, because as part of the Terms of Service, if products aren't delivered, it's up to him to refund all of that money.
IANAL, but I'm pretty certain you're both wrong.
The Dwimmermount KS concluded in April 2012. At that time, the TOS explained the relationship between creators and backers to be that donations are made to help a creator get their project going. Creators can offer rewards (tangible or not) to encourage more and higher backers. The intent was more akin to a PBS pledge drive (Donate $50 and we'll send you this lovely mug with our logo on it) than a store purchase. Whether the TOS has changed since then or not, the terms at the time of the project would be in effect.
Translation: It was always possible for a creator to take off with the money and deliver nothing. The "remedy" is the loss of reputation.
I'm not suggesting that is a good or bad model (or that something nefarious has actually happened here), just trying to explain how it all works.
Quote from: danbuter;617920As far as I know, James is still working on the stuff. Has he announced that he's quit?
The last backer update I have that discusses some progress is from Dec 28. The last backer update I have at all is from Jan 4. What does that mean? No idea.
Quote from: econobus;618382Assuming you make your goal and deliver your rewards, the product is effectively done because you printed to KS demand and are now sold out. You can reprint if you like or -- as some are now doing -- move on to the next KS campaign. Running kickstarters has become your "job." Creating products to fulfill backer rewards is secondary. It's your excuse to "hold a kickstarter."
It's interesting. What it really reminds me of is starting a company to attract venture capital [backer funding], having a grand time and then moving on to the next big idea when the money's gone. Only now the VC fat cats are, you know, dice dorks.
This was the original intent, as I understand it. KS your first project for widget X. Deliver it successfully. Attract the attention of investors (in this case a publisher, I suppose) and start a business to produce more of widget X, and/or start work on gizmo Y. In theory, backers would donate what they could, and a failed product wouldn't raise enough funds (no one loses) or the creator would suffer a loss of reputation and thus would have a harder time doing another project.
It morphed into a pre-order model, which is fine for companies who can deliver, and just want to use this as a means to figure out which products are viable and how many units to produce. But for the untested, you can end up in situations like Dwimmermount - an uncompleted project, backers upset because they understand the model to be one thing, when legally it was another, and a whole lot of uncertainty.
I've backed ~20 KS (and a couple IGG), in a few different areas, not just RPGs.
1-2 failed to fund.
1-2 may have delivered rewards exactly on time; I don't recall for certain.
9 have delivered everything promised, albeit late.
1 more will complete next week.
6 have not yet delivered, but look like they could be on or close to schedule.
6 have not yet delivered, but have provided sufficient updates that I believe they will deliver everything eventually.
1 has not yet delivered, and is looking a little uncertain, but I'm not yet panicked.
Yeah, that last one is Dwimmermount. So it's not great, but it's not particularly abnormal either. Most creators who have done KS, at least before it really got popular, have never done projects like this, and they don't budget enough time for delays, so everything runs late. I was prepared for that, so I'm not bothered by the lateness, as long as the process is moving forward..
As for James, who knows? This could range anywhere from he's been busy with something legitimately more important than our little RPG book to being ill to having fled to Mongolia. I choose to wait and see rather than rant.
Quote from: econobus;618415I haven't seen anyone leveraging the backer mailing lists to solicit new products yet, but it's another natural next step. "Hey, we thought you might want to know the next book is coming out, wanna fund?"
I've seen it. Frog God Games cross promotes as well as a tabletop game company I've backed. They're the smart ones!
Quote from: TheHistorian;618509[re: me blithering KS as DIY VC]
This was the original intent, as I understand it. KS your first project for widget X. Deliver it successfully. Attract the attention of investors (in this case a publisher, I suppose) and start a business to produce more of widget X, and/or start work on gizmo Y. In theory, backers would donate what they could, and a failed product wouldn't raise enough funds (no one loses) or the creator would suffer a loss of reputation and thus would have a harder time doing another project.
If the intent is truly to seed a viable business, a few madcap ideas come to mind.
* Completely divorce the "start-up funding" from the product. Give backers a discount coupon on the product when and if it comes out. No product, the coupon is worthless. Product happens, the backer gets the product and is rewarded along the way. For bonus rewards, offer bigger discounts or in larger quantity. You can also offer them anything under the sky EXCEPT the product you are funding. Nobody who backs this project gets any claim on the product for free. They get a discount, an option to buy like everyone else.
* Discourage serial KSers. Enforce a reasonable cooldown period between successful campaigns. Anything else you want to do, you have to fund it from internal flows or seek other outside sources. You have this product now and this pile of cash. Use it for something besides paying your cell phone bill.
If these ideas are unacceptable, perhaps it's time KS considers biting the bullet and admitting that it's a preorder system now.
Quote from: TheHistorian;618509[re harnessing KS backer lists]
I've seen it. Frog God Games cross promotes as well as a tabletop game company I've backed. They're the smart ones!
For these guys, my new thought is not the usual "omg established companies 'don't belong on' kickstarter, they are fat cats" but "why do relative fat cats need kickstarter?"
Their audience is trained to the telethon format at this point. They like the experience and are happy to pony up. They're on the mailing list. Presumably an established retailer already has a way to route electronic payments. And the 5% KS fee stacks up to decent money at the levels people like Frog God or Evil Hat or Paizo rake in. Multiply by a couple campaigns a year, it's a LOT of money in the rpg world.
The next few years will be interesting.
Quote from: Benoist;618502My own personal guess is that James didn't know what he was getting into.
Looking through JamesM's previous output from the d20 era, quite a few of the titles have multiple authors of which he was one of several. If he wasn't the main editor, then he probably wasn't doing the work of putting a book together into something that was publishable.
I've never been an editor, but from what I've heard of from former colleagues who are more familiar with the editing/layout process (in an unrelated non-rpg niche), it seems to be almost like a full time job that is thankless with numerous deadlines. In some cases, it sounded more like a "babysitter" job.
In the case of a one-man Kickstarter project, I suspect the main person handles all the duties including being an editor, typesetting, licensing (or creating) artwork, etc ...
Perhaps JamesM didn't anticipate all the additional work he had to do himself this time around, besides writing.
Quote from: econobus;618521For these guys, my new thought is not the usual "omg established companies 'don't belong on' kickstarter, they are fat cats" but "why do relative fat cats need kickstarter?"
This was my first thought too, when I first heard of established companies like Mongoose, Paizo, etc ... using Kickstarter.
Quote from: ggroy;618528This was my first thought too, when I first heard of established companies like Mongoose, Paizo, etc ... using Kickstarter.
Big cash winnings. It's been a long time since Steve Jackson saw $900k all in one place, much less some of the, what did my guy call it, "superfunding" behavior we've seen more recently. Back when poor old Dwimmermount funded it was a watershed. Now something like Razor Coast *demands* almost twice that amount just to fund.
Let's watch who takes their mailing list and goes home and who gets addicted to the superfund cycle. It won't be fun exactly but it will be educational.
Quote from: econobus;618531Let's watch who takes their mailing list and goes home and who gets addicted to the superfund cycle. It won't be fun exactly but it will be educational.
What would be an amusing watershed moment, is if Blizzard starts using Kickstarter to fund future World of Warcraft expansion packs.
Even more appalling would be if fat cat major Hollywood studios start using Kickstarter to fund their movie productions.
For example, such as Paramount using Kickstarter to fund a new Star Trek movie and/or tv series.
Quote from: TheHistorian;618509I've seen it. Frog God Games cross promotes as well as a tabletop game company I've backed. They're the smart ones!
This bears repeating. I've never met Bill Webb but I know Matt Finch and he's extremely, almost disconcertingly, smart. Way smarter than me. Probably smarter than just about all of you. Honestly, probably TOO smart to be working in rpgs (but I won't complain too much, because we're all better off for it :))
Quote from: econobus;618531Big cash winnings. It's been a long time since Steve Jackson saw $900k all in one place, much less some of the, what did my guy call it, "superfunding" behavior we've seen more recently. Back when poor old Dwimmermount funded it was a watershed. Now something like Razor Coast *demands* almost twice that amount just to fund.
I wonder though if perhaps Razor Coast didn't play into this.
Razor Coast was similar to a failed kickstarter - the author apparently took pre-orders for the product years ago and never delivered.
Now the KS is in part to pay for those misused funds, charging $110 for a 200 page book just so people who ordered the game before can also get copies.
Maybe sometime like that will happen with Dwimmermount?
Quote from: T. Foster;618540This bears repeating. I've never met Bill Webb but I know Matt Finch and he's extremely, almost disconcertingly, smart. Way smarter than me. Probably smarter than just about all of you. Honestly, probably TOO smart to be working in rpgs (but I won't complain too much, because we're all better off for it :))
Joe Goodman is the other really, really smart operator amongst the OSR publishers...
Quote from: T. Foster;618540I've never met Bill Webb but I know Matt Finch and he's extremely, almost disconcertingly, smart.
Yep, Matt is sharp: smart, creative, and a great DM. He's an awesome player, too; always coming up with unexpected and interesting stuff.
Quote from: TheHistorian;618509IANAL, but I'm pretty certain you're both wrong.
IAL and you are wrong.
If PBS offer you a mug in return for a $50 pledge and don't send it to you they are in breach of contract just as much as someone bailing on a Kickstarter project would be.
Tavis Allison weighs in at The Mule Abides (http://muleabides.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/on-dwimmermount-and-failure/).
Did I read this wrong, or is he telling Maliszewski to man the fuck up already?
Quote from: Black Vulmea;618651Tavis Allison weighs in at The Mule Abides (http://muleabides.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/on-dwimmermount-and-failure/).
Did I read this wrong, or is he telling Maliszewski to man the fuck up already?
Pretty much. Felt a bit like a "public letter" to James on the basis that he doesn't seem to be reading the private ones anymore.
Actually, this sums up things a lot better. Basically James dad is dying.
http://sandboxofdoom.blogspot.com/2013/01/james-maliszewski.html
Quote from: JRT;618665Actually, this sums up things a lot better. Basically James dad is dying.
http://sandboxofdoom.blogspot.com/2013/01/james-maliszewski.html
So how long does it take to write?
" Dad dying. Not in a creative space now. Will let you know more when I can."
Its the total silence that sucks. I don't care if the project takes even longer just let me know whats happening.
He'd get a lot of sympathy if he did that.
People are very forgiving, especially when you are very forthcoming.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;618651Tavis Allison weighs in at The Mule Abides (http://muleabides.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/on-dwimmermount-and-failure/).
Did I read this wrong, or is he telling Maliszewski to man the fuck up already?
I guess he is, but in a "Dude, it happens, we've all been there." way.
BTW, what in the name of god is the Joesky Tax? I know it has something to do with that retarded blog obviously, but the "tax" usage I don't get.
Quote from: CRKrueger;618673BTW, what in the name of god is the Joesky Tax?
Gaming blogs should be about gaming, so if you wax rhapsodic about something not really gaming-related, you need to throw in a little gaming content as well (http://joeskythedungeonbrawler.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/house-rule-for-osr-and-not-osr-games-people-blogs/) to make it worth the reader's while. That's the Joesky Tax.
Quote from: JRT;618665Basically James dad is dying.
My dad's passing didn't mean I could suddenly forsake all of my responsibilities.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;618669So how long does it take to write?
" Dad dying. Not in a creative space now. Will let you know more when I can."
Its the total silence that sucks. I don't care if the project takes even longer just let me know whats happening.
Obviously none of us know James' mental state, but a lot of times extreme stress and grief can put people in a temporary place similar to Severe Depression, which a Psychiatrist friend has told me is like having a sieve where water is pouring in faster then it is draining out. At some point, you simply can't deal with anything else, just moving things to the front of your mind and thinking about them brings on extreme anxiety and even physical pain, so you don't think about them as a self-defense mechanism. You deal with what you can, and instead of multi-tasking 20 things at once, it goes down to 3.
Is that the reason for his silence? Who the hell knows, but I can buy it.
Quote from: CRKrueger;618679Is that the reason for his silence? Who the hell knows, but I can buy it.
When you have that much of other peoples money in your keeping, that kind of withdrawl is not an option.
As a backer, I can accept that he might need some time. I have lost both parents and can sympathize with the situation. I can't accept that he couldn't come up with 5 minutes to tell Tavis briefy why he needed that time.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;618669So how long does it take to write?
" Dad dying. Not in a creative space now. Will let you know more when I can."
Its the total silence that sucks. I don't care if the project takes even longer just let me know whats happening.
Not as long as it takes to write 100000 words, I can tell you that much.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;618677My dad's passing didn't mean I could suddenly forsake all of my responsibilities.
I think it's more of a question of James perhaps not even being online for weeks. He went "radio silent" about the second week of December. Since people already know he's late, he probably wasn't even aware of the storm of criticism building--mostly by people who aren't the backers. Back in 2009 I saw my Grandfather have a stroke on Thanksgiving, then be in recovery until after Christmas, then relapse and die in the second week of Jan. It really was a distraction on the family, nobody was really "normal". I agree he should have been more forthcoming to Tavis, but having experienced this type of thing myself, it's easier said than done.
And it's possible he might not want to have told his personal stuff right away, because there are a lot of folks out there who don't belong to the kickstarter that are doing nasty things--I'm talking about the endless taunting from YDIS (which if it involved minors would likely count as cyberbullying), the people who want him to fail or are jealous of his attention in the OSR sphere, etc.
It seems the kickstarter backers are more patient, it's the third parties who have no stake at all that seem to be the most "up in arms" about it.
Quote from: CRKrueger;618679Obviously none of us know James' mental state, but a lot of times extreme stress and grief can put people in a temporary place similar to Severe Depression, which a Psychiatrist friend has told me is like having a sieve where water is pouring in faster then it is draining out. At some point, you simply can't deal with anything else, just moving things to the front of your mind and thinking about them brings on extreme anxiety and even physical pain, so you don't think about them as a self-defense mechanism. You deal with what you can, and instead of multi-tasking 20 things at once, it goes down to 3.
Is that the reason for his silence? Who the hell knows, but I can buy it.
I have to agree with this. I use to be a hard ass and really push others because I never really understand this kind of reaction to things. I just assumed everyone had the same mental response to the world that I do. After a while you start to understand for some people these things can have a crippling impact that goes way beyond what you've experienced. It doesn't absolve anyone from legal responsibility or mean they shouldn't try to keep people in the loop. But I am not going to crucify someone who is going through hell.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;618682When you have that much of other peoples money in your keeping, that kind of withdrawl is not an option.
As a backer, I can accept that he might need some time. I have lost both parents and can sympathize with the situation. I can't accept that he couldn't come up with 5 minutes to tell Tavis briefy why he needed that time.
Yeah, if I haven't had medical professionals I trust tell me that for some people it actually isn't an option and yeah they may actually be unable to take 5 mins to fire off an email I wouldn't have thought so either. It's hard to imagine a mental state you have never experienced especially if it is very different to how you would handle something.
It doesn't make sense that these information releases from Autarch would be happening if it were a simple health situation.
If the writing was expected to continue, The amount of time lost since the last update isn't even likely to push the new finish date past the conservative end date estimate given before, so why all this information about how little legal ability Autarch has to fulfill the obligations?
On G+ during late November/December, James posted that writing to fulfill contractual obligations was unenjoyable. Nothing was mentioned about ill health. Note - I am not doubting health problems within his family, or that same could push a situation of distaste into a situation of inaction. My point is that the content of these press releases (for lack of a better term) makes no sense if the releaser has a shred of confidence remaining in the eventual completion of the project. It does not make sense to announce a temporary, understandable, but undefined leave of absence from the creative work in this manner.
Tavis and co. have been very competent to this point in publicity and information dispersion about the project. I don't believe they just lost that overnight. Disclosing a total lack of ability to use the IP to fulfill the Kickstarter, solely because the author needed to take a break to nurse his father, would be information management incompetence.
Quote from: EOTB;618730It doesn't make sense that these information releases from Autarch would be happening if it were a simple health situation.
If the writing was expected to continue, The amount of time lost since the last update isn't even likely to push the new finish date past the conservative end date estimate given before, so why all this information about how little legal ability Autarch has to fulfill the obligations?
On G+ during late November/December, James posted that writing to fulfill contractual obligations was unenjoyable. Nothing was mentioned about ill health. Note - I am not doubting health problems within his family, or that same could push a situation of distaste into a situation of inaction. My point is that the content of these press releases (for lack of a better term) makes no sense if the releaser has a shred of confidence remaining in the eventual completion of the project. It does not make sense to announce a temporary, understandable, but undefined leave of absence from the creative work in this manner.
Tavis and co. have been very competent to this point in publicity and information dispersion about the project. I don't believe they just lost that overnight. Disclosing a total lack of ability to use the IP to fulfill the Kickstarter, solely because the author needed to take a break to nurse his father, would be information management incompetence.
My read of it based on Autarch's comments up to now is that James M has gone full radio silence on them, and so Tavis didn't know until today when we found out that the issue was James's sick father.
Quote from: Grymbok;618737My read of it based on Autarch's comments up to now is that James M has gone full radio silence on them, and so Tavis didn't know until today when we found out that the issue was James's sick father.
3 weeks of radio silence starting at Christmas time is not enough for rolling over and exposing your belly to internet regarding your contractual situation to make sense as the next action to take.
Given the content of Tavis' post at his blog, I also do not believe that any health issues have been unknown.
I am not here to dogpile on anyone - my feelings on how the kickstarter was structured and executed is throughout the thread. But I do believe Autarch is telling us their agreement with James is not in the same place it was 2 months ago, regardless of why the change took place.
So I was right.
This was a scam from the start.
I'm back.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;618742So I was right.
This was a scam from the start.
Haven't seen any evidence of that.
Quote from: I run with scissors;618742So I was right.
This was a scam from the start.
I'm back.
IRWS
Yeah, you pegged it. Tavis has indicated the draft is complete, James' father is dying and he's gone incommunicado, and it's a "scam from the start".
There's not much mystery here, just a cascading pile of business mistakes and a few cruel-hearted heckling malcontents.
And didn't you get (or were offered) a refund? And why don't you reveal your real name? Showing back up to bully the guy when you find out his dad is dying is about as classless as I can imagine.
Quote from: I run with scissors;618742So I was right.
This was a scam from the start.
I'm back.
IRWS
Not seeing any evidence for that here. Sure looks messy and not good for everyone involved, but nothing suggests to me that this is an actual scam.
Sucks that his dad is ill/dying. I can certainly sympathize with that. It really can and does suck all of the air out of you.
However, when the kickstarter launched, I recall having the distinct feeling that it was just about done, just needing editing/layout/art and then it would be ready. To be honest, I can't remember why I thought that. Perhaps it was that he'd been blogging about it for a while, or perhaps it was the hype in the announcement that finally, "the OSR would get the dungeon we'd all been waiting for" (that's me paraphrasing...but I'm certain "all been waiting for" was part of the verbage) from it's chief bloginator of note.
So I supported it. Hell, I even ran a 4 hour session of level one at GaryCon for him in March 2012. At the time, I thought it was fairly pedestrian dungeon crawl, offering little innovation or feeling of depth hinted at in his blog. But hey, I'd only seen level one, so I hoped the good stuff would be forthcoming in the deeper levels and associated background info/campaign guide thing. So I've been waiting.
And waiting..
And now we got Tavis seeming throwing his hands up in the air, complete with a story about naked people trying to rescue his father (Tavis, no offense meant..it's a true tragedy...it's uh..just weird) and James seemingly dropping off the face of the web for what I hope isn't another tragic event.
So I dunno. Dwimmermount wasn't the first project I pledged, so I was cautious. I only ponied up $10 for the PDF. So really, I've no significant amount of money at risk. (hell $10 isn't a significant part of my yearly gaming budget.) I'm disappointed it's taken this long. I've even been pretty vocally pissed about it, actually, though in the confines of a small G+ circle.
I guess in the end, this was way too over-hyped, and expectations weren't set forth properly. The delays haven't been handled well. And really, like a lot of big RPG projects (even stuff like T1-4 and The World's Largest Dungeon or whatever the fuck it was called), probably won't be any better than what we could have done ourselves, unfortunately.
Quote from: EOTB;6187403 weeks of radio silence starting at Christmas time is not enough for rolling over and exposing your belly to internet regarding your contractual situation to make sense as the next action to take.
It started in the middle of December and involved more than just Radio silence but a lack of even the normal private communication that went on.
Quote from: JRT;618700. . . [H]aving experienced this type of thing myself, it's easier said than done.
Yes, severe depression can render people unable to function even in what would seem to be simple tasks.
That said, it's also part of a pattern of withdrawal. Maliszewski deleted comments from his blog that he didn't like, then later moved comments to his Google+ circles, effectively firewalling them from the unwashed masses altogether. He withdrew from the
K&K forums as well awhile back. It appears he doesn't take criticism well, and I imagine he was stung pretty hard by the early reactions to Dwimmermount.
I hope the guy digs deep to find whatever help he needs to get through his difficulties and fulfill his promises.
It also looks like Tavis is saying "Guys, we'd lay the damn thing out ourselves and print it if we had permission."
Quote from: CRKrueger;618813It also looks like Tavis is saying "Guys, we'd lay the damn thing out ourselves and print it if we had permission."
Where would the money come from?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;617963No idea, but when communication to the backers indicated that some of the funds would support James while writing the project, a full time job seemed unlikely. If he did have full time work then why would he require support?
I thought he was still an academic, but maybe not:
http://www.greenronin.com/friends.php?who=maliszewski
Quote from: Zachary The First;618486Well, in the RPG world, GM Sarli's vaporware e20 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gmsarli/game-design-e20-system-evolved-roleplaying-gam-0) resulted in a complaint to the Texas Attorney General: http://www.geeknative.com/36183/e20-rpg-kickstarter-failure-results-in-complaint-to-texas-state-attorney-general/ (http://www.geeknative.com/36183/e20-rpg-kickstarter-failure-results-in-complaint-to-texas-state-attorney-general/)
It's coming up on 2 years since being funded, and there's been little progress, and there currently seems to be even less hope.
GM Sarli is a lying douchecock? Who knew?
This business of claiming illness is bullshit.
Four years ago I had to have major surgery on my right leg that left me hobbled for eight weeks. A little over two years ago I was almost killed in a car wreck that left me unable to walk for four months and unable to walk without a walker or crutches for another two months and left me unable to work full time for the better part of a year.
During those two spans, I worked on a module online along with P&P and others because well, it was one of the few things I
could do at the time to keep my mind active and to distract me from (a) how fucking bad a fractured pelvis, ruptured Achilles tendon and torn cartilage/labrum in my hip hurt and (b) the deaths of several relatives and friends in a span of a few months. The point is, during this shitty time for me I got more stuff done
because I was bedridden,
because I was in pain and
because I was so irritable from pain and worse yet, pain
killers that family and friends kept their distance as much as possible.
Oh, and I wasn't being paid to do it.
A bunch of people fork over tens of thousands of dollars for a job to be done and you can't bother to explain to them why you can't hold up your end? Bullshit! Plumbers, electricians and other contractors who take the money and deliver nothing are thieves, barring some sort of calamity. Hiding from the people who wrote you the check is pretty slimy and on the face of it, pretty good evidence that a grifter is at work.
It takes less energy to write a few sentences explaining that real life has thrown you for a loss than it does to delete critical comments and ban posters.
Quote from: econobus;618521If these ideas are unacceptable, perhaps it's time KS considers biting the bullet and admitting that it's a preorder system now.
This is certainly true. What the original intent is doesn't matter so much as what something becomes.
QuoteFor these guys, my new thought is not the usual "omg established companies 'don't belong on' kickstarter, they are fat cats" but "why do relative fat cats need kickstarter?"
My guess is that sales of traditional books (we printed it, buy one at some point whenever you want it) are pretty high at first and then settle down to a stable level for a long while.
But with exclusives available only during the KS period, you can encourage lots of those sales at once. I'm not clear why that's good though, as it would that sales after that would drop very low. I would want long term steady sales, so I'm wrong or missing something.
Quote from: Warthur;618573IAL and you are wrong.
If PBS offer you a mug in return for a $50 pledge and don't send it to you they are in breach of contract just as much as someone bailing on a Kickstarter project would be.
*shrug* If you say so.
It seems to me that the TOS would define the terms of the contract.
Quote from: S'mon;618875I thought he was still an academic, but maybe not:
http://www.greenronin.com/friends.php?who=maliszewski
Nah, we traveled in similar circles in the late World of Darkness days and he hasn't been a grad student for well over a decade. Just as a point of trivia.
Quote from: TheHistorian;618942[what the gods of gaming want with a starship, I mean kickstarter]
My guess is that sales of traditional books (we printed it, buy one at some point whenever you want it) are pretty high at first and then settle down to a stable level for a long while.
But with exclusives available only during the KS period, you can encourage lots of those sales at once. I'm not clear why that's good though, as it would that sales after that would drop very low. I would want long term steady sales, so I'm wrong or missing something.
I hear you. Deep down I still think the book and game business is about selling books and games too.
For some people, the kickstarter game business is apparently about raising "venture capital" to live on and in return for that funding you (eventually) produce and hand over exactly enough games to match "backer" demand. There's no long tail at all, you don't have to hold inventory or find distributors or beg retailers to buy a few copies. Instant gratification.
As a bonus, you sidestep a lot of the digital piracy issues that have my friends from the White Wolf days terrified of their own shadows. Everyone who was going to buy it got a copy from the KS. Everybody else who wants it might swipe a PDF. Doesn't matter to you any more because you're not sitting on inventory you can no longer sell -- if you really want to touch the title again, run a Revised Edition Kickstarter By Popular Demand. Otherwise, you got your money and you're off to the next thing. You win. As long as you manage to actually distribute the rewards, everybody wins.
For the publisher, this is pretty sweet because you eliminate a lot of costs and almost all of the risks short of your own hubris. You get your money right at point of production; in fact, you can even get your money BEFORE you even have the product in hand. And the backers get things they might not get any other way.
It feels vaguely sinful to me because I still think in terms of printing a lot of books and earning my profit as the inventory gradually sells down. But this approach really boils down to the publisher using KS as a temporary store front -- basically a virtual Gencon booth -- and As We All Know, Kickstarter Is Not About Selling Stuff.
There was a good thread on this in the board game world where a small publisher gushed about how great it was to sell direct, print to demand and basically solicit pre-orders. People raised the usual "PREORDER BAD" flag and the publisher just said, "hey, we're a minnow, we fully expect them to change the rules at any time and that's just how we live."
Boardgamegeek thread is here (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/904171/2012-in-review-and-2013-the-role-kickstarter-pla) if people want a breath of the different stale air wafting from that other side of the game store.
Quote from: TheHistorian;618942It seems to me that the TOS would define the terms of the contract.
It defines the agreement between Kickstarter and other parties in Kickstarter's role as a facilitator, rather than the terms of the agreement between backers and project owners as such because, of course, it's down to the project owners to say what's on the table.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;618784It appears he doesn't take criticism well, and I imagine he was stung pretty hard by the early reactions to Dwimmermount.
In any endeavor which has many eyes watching, harsh criticism is a standard part of the turf.
Even before the internet became popular, such harsh criticisms being spoken was commonplace at venues like conventions, public appearances, book signings, exhibits, etc ...
I notice that James Maliszewski lives in Toronto.
I live a few hours north of Toronto.
It occurs to me that you cannot participate in Kickstarter if you are a Canadian resident.
Could this have been the source of the strange money-changing deal with Autarch?
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Panjumanju;619539I notice that James Maliszewski lives in Toronto.
I live a few hours north of Toronto.
It occurs to me that you cannot participate in Kickstarter if you are a Canadian resident.
Could this have been the source of the strange money-changing deal with Autarch?
Yes, as far as I know.
More proof to never go against a Canadian when death is on the line!
My wife, btw, is Canadian.
I think maybe we need to change our perspective on kickstarter. I don't think the problem is the author -- or even the business model... but our expectations.
Our expectations are that we're getting a guarantee of delivery. That everything will work out great and a product will arrive at our doorstop and all will be well. But that's not what KS is. It's a venture capital engagement. It's putting together a small company and seeking funding. And as funders -- us -- we need to understand the essence of venture capitalism does not guarantee success.
If it succeeds, you get all sorts of credit. But if it doesn't... well... it doesn't. And that's part of the risk. And what does that tell us? It tells us to back things that look really like they have their act together. It tells us to be cautious and ask questions up front. Most of all, it tells us that we shouldn't spend a single dollar we're not totally comfortable with loosing.
Quote from: Veilheim;620443I think maybe we need to change our perspective on kickstarter. I don't think the problem is the author -- or even the business model... but our expectations.
Our expectations are that we're getting a guarantee of delivery. That everything will work out great and a product will arrive at our doorstop and all will be well. But that's not what KS is. It's a venture capital engagement. It's putting together a small company and seeking funding. And as funders -- us -- we need to understand the essence of venture capitalism does not guarantee success.
True, but on the other hand under most venture capital setups the person who's providing the money can expect to be kept informed about what is going on - and indeed in the event of failure they often have some form of legal recourse.
Quote from: Veilheim;620443I think maybe we need to change our perspective on kickstarter. I don't think the problem is the author -- or even the business model... but our expectations.
Our expectations are that we're getting a guarantee of delivery. That everything will work out great and a product will arrive at our doorstop and all will be well. But that's not what KS is. It's a venture capital engagement. It's putting together a small company and seeking funding. And as funders -- us -- we need to understand the essence of venture capitalism does not guarantee success.
If it succeeds, you get all sorts of credit. But if it doesn't... well... it doesn't. And that's part of the risk. And what does that tell us? It tells us to back things that look really like they have their act together. It tells us to be cautious and ask questions up front. Most of all, it tells us that we shouldn't spend a single dollar we're not totally comfortable with loosing.
This model of thinking will lead to only established companies with proven track records being able to run a kickstarter because no one will want to fund an unknown.
This defeats the whole purpose of kickstarter.
Lets also mention that during the initial funding of this project, it was advertised as something that was written that needed editing, layout, and art. The timetable outlined at the start certainly didn't leave room for the creation of the whole from nothing.
It was after the fact, that we were informed that the thing wasn't even written at the time of funding. As far as delays go I wasn't that upset. For a better product I can wait. If the finished product isn't as stellar as was promised oh well, not all endeavors turn out as well as you were expecting.
For a complete failure to produce anything, even if its crap that took forever, then we don't have a failed venture we have thievery.
So a "sorry this didn't work out" without a refund isn't an acceptable substitute for anything.
Quote from: Veilheim;620443If it succeeds, you get all sorts of credit. But if it doesn't... well... it doesn't.
With respect, let's be sure to follow the cash as well as the credit. If you get your product out the door, you get the profits. We can all agree on that one.
But if you don't, the question isn't so much reputation as why you can't promptly return the capital when you give up. Did you spend it on art that is now useless? Did you pay yourself a salary?
Where's the money? This is not necessarily a concern with Dwimmermount but it would be nice if some of these other much-delayed projects would let their backers know how much capital is left and how much is still needed.
That's a basic requirement to do business in even the sleaziest corners of the VC world. If people aren't doing that, is it actually a VC-like relationship, or is that only the latest excuse for failure to launch?
Quote from: Veilheim;620443I think maybe we need to change our perspective on kickstarter. I don't think the problem is the author -- or even the business model... but our expectations.
Our expectations are that we're getting a guarantee of delivery. That everything will work out great and a product will arrive at our doorstop and all will be well. But that's not what KS is. It's a venture capital engagement. It's putting together a small company and seeking funding. And as funders -- us -- we need to understand the essence of venture capitalism does not guarantee success.
If it succeeds, you get all sorts of credit. But if it doesn't... well... it doesn't. And that's part of the risk. And what does that tell us? It tells us to back things that look really like they have their act together. It tells us to be cautious and ask questions up front. Most of all, it tells us that we shouldn't spend a single dollar we're not totally comfortable with loosing.
Read Kickstarter's mission statement and terms; Kickstarter itself doesn't agree with anything you wrote there.
Quote from: econobus;620494But if you don't, the question isn't so much reputation as why you can't promptly return the capital when you give up. Did you spend it on art that is now useless? Did you pay yourself a salary?
The minute the kickstarter ends, you lose about 35% of the money to a combination of KS's cut and taxes. You can avoid the latter somewhat by spending it on production expenses the same tax year, but in that case you're just changing the reason why you don't have the money. Unless the producer squats on that cash immediately upon receipt and doesn't even begin to spend it out on art and production, the initial funding is going to melt away in a flash- and if he's just clinging to it like a miser, well, the taxman's gonna help him solve his liquidity excess.
Quote from: SineNomine;620688The minute the kickstarter ends, you lose about 35% of the money to a combination of KS's cut and taxes. You can avoid the latter somewhat by spending it on production expenses the same tax year, but in that case you're just changing the reason why you don't have the money. Unless the producer squats on that cash immediately upon receipt and doesn't even begin to spend it out on art and production, the initial funding is going to melt away in a flash- and if he's just clinging to it like a miser, well, the taxman's gonna help him solve his liquidity excess.
Sure. Actually, wow. That's got profound implications for "hobby" projects that only took in enough to cover costs and nobody was expecting to run a profit on the back end. Not sure how many KS creators are in the top brackets but even a 15% to 20% gap may be unbearable -- not enough cash to print or refund once the IRS takes their cut, and probably not enough outside flow to replace what's lost.
Great comment! So...what kind of incentive does this create to avoid carrying a project beyond the funding tax year?
Quote from: SineNomine;620688The minute the kickstarter ends, you lose about 35% of the money to a combination of KS's cut and taxes.
It might even be higher than that, because apparently a significant proportion of pledges never actually clear the funds either. As a rule of thumb, when I was looking at it I was advised to have the base target set at at least 150% of what I actually thought I needed (and to make sure to apply the same logic to any stretch goals).
Quote from: econobus;620691Sure. Actually, wow. That's got profound implications for "hobby" projects that only took in enough to cover costs and nobody was expecting to run a profit on the back end. Not sure how many KS creators are in the top brackets but even a 15% to 20% gap may be unbearable -- not enough cash to print or refund once the IRS takes their cut, and probably not enough outside flow to replace what's lost.
Great comment! So...what kind of incentive does this create to avoid carrying a project beyond the funding tax year?
What worries me is that I'm not sure a lot of KS producers are even thinking about the tax ramifications of what they're doing. Carrying a project into a new tax year means that you shell out self-employment taxes and income taxes for every dollar of that KS that can't be justifiably expensed to your business. Self-employment taxes are going to eat about 15% of what's left, and even presuming pretty minimal base income you're not going to get away without 10 or 15% more in income taxes unless you're minimum-waging it in your day job.
For Spears of the Dawn, I pegged my minimum at $3,000 as a not-lose-too-much-money proposition. For that, I had $2K for art and $1K for taxes, KS's cut, and Things Going Wrong. I'd only be paying $1K in a worst-case situation, but I was closing the campaign in November, so I had to deal with the risk that I'd be holding a lot of unspent art money past December 31st.
As it turned out, I ended up with $10K, from which I budgeted $3K for taxes and KS' cut, $2.5K for shipping and fulfillment, $3.5K for SotD art, and $1K for art for The House of Bone and Amber. I was able to minimize the tax bill by paying my artists 10 minutes after I received the final work from them, but I still carried hundreds of dollars in tax fees into the new year because I couldn't expense fulfillment costs until I actually fulfilled the orders. Even as it stands, profits on Spears of the Dawn are going to rest almost entirely on post-KS sales rather than the $10K it cost me to get the thing into existence.
And if I hadn't budgeted for taxes and KS's cut, I'd be staring at a couple thousand bucks worth of red ink. And if I'd collected the money in November and fumbled around trying to get things in order so that nothing started until January, I would have in a stroke lost a third of my funding to taxes and KS without having a single thing to show for it. A lot of these kickstarters that have crawled over into a new year have gotten beat with a hefty tax bill that their creators may not even realize is there until it comes time to sit down and do their taxes for the year.
Quote from: SineNomine;620701Self-employment taxes are going to eat about 15% of what's left, and even presuming pretty minimal base income
There's that extra 15% I wasn't seeing. Ouch!
Thanks for sharing your numbers. From everything I've heard about SotD you delivered de luxe. Here's hoping you get to carry a profit from it into 2014.
Quote from: SineNomine;620688The minute the kickstarter ends, you lose about 35% of the money to a combination of KS's cut and taxes.
It's a little more complicated than that.
I am not a tax advisor and this is not tax advice, but if you're set up a company/sole proprietiership/LLC, there's usually the option of going to accrual basis accounting methods. In that model, you'd place the Kickstarter funds as asset against future liability, rather than cash income, and not have to pay taxes until the actual sale date (by which point you should have all your expenditures in a set).
Downside is, you need to be a business of some kind, and almost certainly need a tax professional involved. It can cause some really bizarre spending patterns, especially if you have a lot of small infrastructure costs or personnel costs. You can also end up screwed if you wait too long to fax the IRS the right forms, as well.
Self-employment taxes will screw over the small business or hobbyist, though, especially if you're paying yourself at all for your time.
I agree with gattsuru, seek advice from an accountant about being able to use accrual based accounting. The rules are finicky compared to cash accounting but for a Kickstarter properly doing it right can mean that taxes can be delaying until the year you deliver the product. In fact it pretty much tailor made for the situation that kickstarter project find themselves in.
Again seek the advice of a professional.
Quote from: gattsuru;620739It's a little more complicated than that. I am not a tax advisor and this is not tax advice, but if you're set up a company/sole proprietiership/LLC, there's usually the option of going to accrual basis accounting methods. In that model, you'd place the Kickstarter funds as asset against future liability, rather than cash income, and not have to pay taxes until the actual sale date (by which point you should have all your expenditures in a set).
Downside is, you need to be a business of some kind, and almost certainly need a tax professional involved. It can cause some really bizarre spending patterns, especially if you have a lot of small infrastructure costs or personnel costs. You can also end up screwed if you wait too long to fax the IRS the right forms, as well.
Self-employment taxes will screw over the small business or hobbyist, though, especially if you're paying yourself at all for your time.
I run Sine Nomine on a cash basis rather than an accrual basis since accrual can be hairy, but I think the larger issue is scarcity of even a moderate level of professionalism in KS projects. Nobody gets into the RPG publishing hobby so they can spend more time with QuickBooks and tax schedules. They don't write modules for the blissful pleasure of more time spent with milestones, personnel management, invoicing and project documentation. Asking these people to sit down and make serious decisions as to the accounting structure of their sole proprietorship so as to take the tax year into account is not something that happens a whole lot.
I think it's going to have to happen more as time goes on. Particularly when you start dealing with five-digit projects, the money starts to get serious, and a lot of issues that don't look so important at five hundred or a thousand start to get real significant at ten or fifty thousand. The problem is that a lot of these issues and traps are just not intuitively obvious to the people who are starting these projects, because they've never had to deal with anything like them before and they don't realize that they need to worry about them. Sometimes I think the hobby is in dire need of someone sitting down and writing a step-by-step, "How to plan and structure your RPG kickstarter from a project management perspective so it does not blow up on you" document.
Quote from: SineNomine;620749I think it's going to have to happen more as time goes on. Particularly when you start dealing with five-digit projects, the money starts to get serious, and a lot of issues that don't look so important at five hundred or a thousand start to get real significant at ten or fifty thousand.
It doesn't help that a lot of Kickstarters aim for four-digit projects and end up turning into five- or even six-digit ones. A lot of accounting assumptions really can't cover both sides of that divide, and even finding the necessary expertise to cover the five-digit range can bankrupt a four-digit project. Meanwhile, stretch goals can be the difference between everything occurring in one fiscal year and not.
QuoteSometimes I think the hobby is in dire need of someone sitting down and writing a step-by-step, "How to plan and structure your RPG kickstarter from a project management perspective so it does not blow up on you" document.
Or even just a general business plan for hobbyist businesses. Kickstarter's got some variability issues most hobbyists don't normally see, and RPG (and physical book or art) KS's tend to straddle an awkward place between design investment and manufacturing funding, but even the real basics of business accounting decisions are really undercovered. Same problems show up for donation drives, alpha-funding like
Minecraft, or even just online sales like Etsy or self-publishing.
It's not so much the 4 or 5 or 6 digits that come from Kickstarter itself. It's the amount of digits after expenses for the year.
For example, if my cut from KS is $150,000, but it costs me $140,000 in expenditures to complete the project during that same tax year, I only have to worry about $10,000.
I don't know anything about US tax accounting. If I were doing a kickstarter here in the UK (and I wouldn't, but hypothetically speaking) then I would get all the writing, cartography and art done in advance. Then I'd launch the kickstarter on 5th April, aiming to ship the physical product in July. From August onwards I'd be starting to get the next year's kickstarters ready.
Quote from: P&P;620790I don't know anything about US tax accounting. If I were doing a kickstarter here in the UK (and I wouldn't, but hypothetically speaking) then I would get all the writing, cartography and art done in advance. Then I'd launch the kickstarter on 5th April, aiming to ship the physical product in July. From August onwards I'd be starting to get the next year's kickstarters ready.
When I did mine, I totally planned it all in the same year. I also had almost everything already done in advance anyway, so there were no delays. Roughly 1-2 months after the KS was over, people had the product.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;620454Lets also mention that during the initial funding of this project, it was advertised as something that was written that needed editing, layout, and art. The timetable outlined at the start certainly didn't leave room for the creation of the whole from nothing.
It was after the fact, that we were informed that the thing wasn't even written at the time of funding.
Can this be taken as a possible case of material misrepresentation?
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/material-misrepresentation.html
Quote from: Sacrosanct;620783It's not so much the 4 or 5 or 6 digits that come from Kickstarter itself. It's the amount of digits after expenses for the year.
For example, if my cut from KS is $150,000, but it costs me $140,000 in expenditures to complete the project during that same tax year, I only have to worry about $10,000.
According to Autarch's accountant, the situation is even worse than that, as expenses that go towards creation of a product have to be capitalized and then deducted as cost-of-goods as the product has sold.
If you only create exactly enough product to fulfill your Kickstarter this not an issue, but on Adventurer Conqueror King, we used our Kickstarter funds to create a total of 1,000 copies of the rulebook versus only 500 necessary to meet our Kickstarter obligations. Rather than being able to deduct these costs immediately, we can only deduct them as expenses as each book sells.
In any event... I concur with you here. The tax and accounting implications are very real and messy. It cost us a couple grand just to get our system set up appropriately.
Quote from: amacris;620815Rather than being able to deduct these costs immediately, we can only deduct them as expenses as each book sells.
Really? My tax lady counted everything that went into production costs, regardless of how many sold or whatnot, as expenses. If I spent $10,000 on costs for 2012, that's what was on the taxes regardless if I sold 1000 copies or 2000. All it means is that whatever I sell next year (or this year rather) counts as straight income, rather than income - cost per book.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;620822Really? My tax lady counted everything that went into production costs, regardless of how many sold or whatnot, as expenses. If I spent $10,000 on costs for 2012, that's what was on the taxes regardless if I sold 1000 copies or 2000. All it means is that whatever I sell next year (or this year rather) counts as straight income, rather than income - cost per book.
Someone, maybe Rob? or maybe someone who owns a game shop here went over asset accounting once, they fuck you coming and going, it was ugly.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;620822Really? My tax lady counted everything that went into production costs, regardless of how many sold or whatnot, as expenses. If I spent $10,000 on costs for 2012, that's what was on the taxes regardless if I sold 1000 copies or 2000. All it means is that whatever I sell next year (or this year rather) counts as straight income, rather than income - cost per book.
I've had two separate accountants tell me straight up that a least a part of filing taxes is pixy dust and magic. 99% is pretty straight forward and the last bit you just kind of mumble, cross yourself, and release it into the wilds.
So it doesn't ever surprise me when I hear about different accountants having different takes on the same process.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;620822Really? My tax lady counted everything that went into production costs, regardless of how many sold or whatnot, as expenses. If I spent $10,000 on costs for 2012, that's what was on the taxes regardless if I sold 1000 copies or 2000.
It depends very heavily on your scale, system, and type. At the five thousand USD range and a two-month time window, cash accounting works perfectly: it's quick, simple, and effective. And that's a perfectly legitimate way to run Kickstarters, in addition to being a recipe for good customer satisfaction. The rules start to get different when your time window crosses a fiscal year, or if you are working as a business with over 1 milllion USD revenue, or for certain primarily-merchant roles. The situation amacris describes sounds like a particularly fiendish incarnation of asset-liability accounting, although I'm way too much in the layperson category to know what situations the IRS requires it for tax reporting purposes.
And note this is just for federal taxes within the United States : I don't even want to get into VAT, state setups, or other countries.
All of this adds to my reasons of why I prefer just writing books and not being the one that publishes or sells them.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Exploderwizard;620454It was after the fact, that we were informed that the thing wasn't even written at the time of funding.
I agree with your overall sentiment, but this particular claim is simply not true. We were explicit that Dwimmermount only existed in the form of James' campaign notes, and that backers would be receiving successive drafts of the text during which they'd see the dungeon being written up in full form.
You can see this right on the Kickstarter page:
"As a backer... you'll get each successive draft of the text, so you can watch how your experience of turning the written dungeon into a living realm of mystery and danger
reflects James' reverse process of making his campaign notes into a form usable by others."
"Neophyte: Backstage access!
Watch Dwimmermount blossom from James' campaign notes, and help its development by downloading the latest drafts from autarch.co and playtesting them with your group."
Autarch did many things wrong, but claiming that Dwimmermount was already written is not one of them.
Quote from: amacris;620980I agree with your overall sentiment, but this particular claim is simply not true. We were explicit that Dwimmermount only existed in the form of James' campaign notes, and that backers would be receiving successive drafts of the text during which they'd see the dungeon being written up in full form.
You can see this right on the Kickstarter page:
"As a backer... you'll get each successive draft of the text, so you can watch how your experience of turning the written dungeon into a living realm of mystery and danger reflects James' reverse process of making his campaign notes into a form usable by others."
"Neophyte: Backstage access! Watch Dwimmermount blossom from James' campaign notes, and help its development by downloading the latest drafts from autarch.co and playtesting them with your group."
Autarch did many things wrong, but claiming that Dwimmermount was already written is not one of them.
No, but I believe James did, which is why backers thought this product would be completed in short order. From his blog (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/thinkin-bout-dwimmermount.html), emphasis mine:
QuoteI've also been giving a lot of thought to the publication of the Dwimmermount megadungeon. It's something I very much want to do and, judging from the comments and emails I get regularly, it's something a lot of people want to see. So, it's not so much a question of if or even when so much as how. I mean, the dungeon is done. I have all my notes and maps and other write-ups. Turning that stuff into something others can use is the issue. For example, I'm a terrible mapper, as I've admitted many times before. To produce a Dwimmermount project, I'll need to pay someone to do the cartography for me and good cartography costs money. Likewise, I'd like to include artwork, both for purely esthetic reasons and also to illustrate some of the more interesting sites in the megadungeon. That, too, requires money to hire people with skills I lack in abundance.
I'm not sure how much direct or clear that could have been from him. Clearly, that was what he was putting out there. As a backer, I'm not upset with Autarch, but I do believe James was misleading with just where he was with this project heading into it.
Quote from: Zachary The First;621005No, but I believe James did, which is why backers thought this product would be completed in short order. From his blog (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/thinkin-bout-dwimmermount.html), emphasis mine:
I'm not sure how much direct or clear that could have been from him. Clearly, that was what he was putting out there. As a backer, I'm not upset with Autarch, but I do believe James was misleading with just where he was with this project heading into it.
Yeah, that post was prior to Autarch's involvement in setting up a Kickstarter. Ironically, its the very blog post that prompted us to reach out to him. So I genuinely do understand where you are coming from...
To give James the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he genuinely believed the dungeon was "done" and didn't realize how not-done it was until he actually went through the process of turning it into a commercial product. (I personally thought ACKS was done many times before it was actually done, and I reckon other designers have felt similarly.)
Quote from: amacris;621015To give James the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he genuinely believed the dungeon was "done" and didn't realize how not-done it was until he actually went through the process of turning it into a commercial product.
I think that's basically what happened. He had no idea what he was getting into.
Quote from: amacris;621015Yeah, that post was prior to Autarch's involvement in setting up a Kickstarter. Ironically, its the very blog post that prompted us to reach out to him. So I genuinely do understand where you are coming from...
To give James the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he genuinely believed the dungeon was "done" and didn't realize how not-done it was until he actually went through the process of turning it into a commercial product. (I personally thought ACKS was done many times before it was actually done, and I reckon other designers have felt similarly.)
I can understand that, and I need to watch what I say. I'm not saying he was intentionally misleading--I don't want to ascribe ill intent where none exists--but simply unprepared/over his head when it came to the process you describe.
FWIW Gary Gygax and Troll Lord Games made many similar claims over the years about Castle Zagyg being "done" and only needing to be polished up for publication that were just as over-optimistic (i.e. flat-out wrong), so in that regard James M is in pretty good company...
The work to make a tournament style dungeon or wilderlands style hexcrawl goes up, roughly, by the square of the number of entries you are trying to detail. Doubling the number of entries is more like four times the work not twice the work.
Something I learned from doing all the hexcrawl I wrote.
Quote from: T. Foster;621030FWIW Gary Gygax and Troll Lord Games made many similar claims over the years about Castle Zagyg being "done" and only needing to be polished up for publication that were just as over-optimistic (i.e. flat-out wrong), so in that regard James M is in pretty good company...
They also wasted their time and resources on...
Yggsburgh of all things. Then the Yggsburgh district products which, I am pretty sure, nobody looking for Castle Greyhawk ever wanted.
All difficulties taken into account: Gary's heart just wasn't in it.
I was always surprised Gary did Castle Zagyg, since even a year before that he was adamant about not directly working anything involving D&D. I feel this was a compromise to get more sales, as I felt if he truly followed his muse it would have been the LA game. Sadly, most of Gary's fans are IMO "fair weather fans"--"we just want to see you do AD&D stuff", rather than fans of his writing style.
Gary never really worked on anything unless he was either passionate about it or felt it was worth an investment. The fact he never wrote the details of this dungeon in his spare time tells me he was more enthusiastic about the stuff he was writing currently than his older work. He was not like Ed Greenwood, for instance, writing down this stuff regardless of ownership or control. He was much more like a screenwriter.
Yggsburg was Gary's idea though--and all him. If people hated Yggsburg they would have ended up hating the final Castle Zagyg. I like it, and see it as the last decent published work by Gary--that's not counting the lost sourcebooks for Lejendary Adventures, which were written before then but lost in publishing limbo (those were written in 1997, Yggsburg in 2002). I agree about the expanded Yggsburg adventures though--that was pure delaying tactic.
The biggest problem in this case was Gary's stroke and heart attack, and his other health issues. This reduced his output to a few hours a day and didn't create any significant output after that--all the stuff that eventually was published by him came from the 1995-2003 era. He knew he was on borrowed time, and I am actually glad he decided to keep corresponding with people instead of forcing himself on a death march.
Quote from: JRT;621087Sadly, most of Gary's fans are IMO "fair weather fans"--"we just want to see you do AD&D stuff", rather than fans of his writing style.
This bullshit could only come from someone who doesn't enjoy playing RPGs. I would buy AD&D stuff from Gary because I play that game. I don't play LA because it is written to be mechanically opposite to AD&D in just about every way - and it's fucking nonsensical that if I actually play AD&D and it does all that I want an RPG game to do, that I would waste money on LA product. If anyone in Gary's business camp expected any measure of commercial success for an anti-AD&D game (mechanically) because he previously authored AD&D, than Cyborg Commando taught them nothing.
Of course, if I don't play either of them it wouldn't matter and I would just shell out cash for whatever Gary wrote, but it would be missing the forest for the fucking trees.
Don't talk ill of AD&D fans because very few of them were willing to throw cash at whatever Gary wrote. Roger Waters plays "The Wall" at all of his concerts for a reason. He's free to record albums that don't really sound like Pink Floyd, and sell a few thousand copies of them. But if he wants to butter his bread, he gives people what they want. That doesn't make all the fans who pay outrageous prices for his concerts but fail to purchase the new material "fair weather fans".
Quote from: estar;621057Doubling the number of entries is more like four times the work not twice the work.
Why is that?
I can see that with regards to a rule set - skills and spells that synergize with each other. (MTG comes to mind...)
But hex descriptions...?
Quote from: JRT;621087Sadly, most of Gary's fans are IMO "fair weather fans"--"we just want to see you do AD&D stuff", rather than fans of his writing style.
If it's "fair weather" to prefer some works of a writer over others, then label me guilty, and not just in Gary's case. And not just for writers: for just about any artist. I almost always discriminate and prefer some works over others.
Personally, I think that's normal and reasonable. Say there are two fans of a writer, and one says "I liked this and this, but I thought this other thing he wrote was way below par." The second fan says "I'm no 'fair weather fan!' I love everything he wrote." Even if I disagree, I'd pay more attention to what the first fan has to say. The second comes across more like a hanger-on or a groupie working their hanger-on/groupie agenda.
That said, I do like some of Gary's work outside of D&D. I think both LA and Mythus have merit, for example. Can't say I'm a big fan of his novels, though.
FWIW, I think you're correct about Gary preferring to focus on LA. He made that no secret, even while he was working on Castle Zagyg stuff.
Quote from: EOTB;621250Don't talk ill of AD&D fans because very few of them were willing to throw cash at whatever Gary wrote. Roger Waters plays "The Wall" at all of his concerts for a reason. He's free to record albums that don't really sound like Pink Floyd, and sell a few thousand copies of them. But if he wants to butter his bread, he gives people what they want. That doesn't make all the fans who pay outrageous prices for his concerts but fail to purchase the new material "fair weather fans".
There's a difference IMO between "AD&D fans" and "Gygax fans". I tend to follow the writer more than the creation regardless of the medium--I like Chris Claremont more than The X-Men themselves, and I like Aaron Sorkin more than The West Wing. In the Roger Water's case, I would say you are more a fan of "Pink Floyd" than Mr. Waters--and thus you are a "fair weather fan" of Roger Waters because you're more interested in Pink Floyd than him.
There are game designers out there who have followers and produce many different games, not just one. To me, following the author is a better indication of fandom than sticking with the creation. I'm not saying you have to love the stuff equally--you can make arguments about it, but it's kind of eye opening to me to see how fandom likes to argue about how good "Gygaxian prose" is, yet when he's still creating it they call it "generic" (even stuff that was aimed at that D&D audience, like Yggsburg).
Quote from: JRT;621291There's a difference IMO between "AD&D fans" and "Gygax fans". I tend to follow the writer more than the creation regardless of the medium--I like Chris Claremont more than The X-Men themselves, and I like Aaron Sorkin more than The West Wing. In the Roger Water's case, I would say you are more a fan of "Pink Floyd" than Mr. Waters--and thus you are a "fair weather fan" of Roger Waters because you're more interested in Pink Floyd than him.
There are game designers out there who have followers and produce many different games, not just one. To me, following the author is a better indication of fandom than sticking with the creation. I'm not saying you have to love the stuff equally--you can make arguments about it, but it's kind of eye opening to me to see how fandom likes to argue about how good "Gygaxian prose" is, yet when he's still creating it they call it "generic" (even stuff that was aimed at that D&D audience, like Yggsburg).
Uh-huh.
So, why is "fandom" (in your definition) a good or useful thing?
I'm with Philotomy on this one: it's creepy and cult-like to support everything an individual does, whereas if you show more discernment and say "Well, his last book was excellent, but this time around he really seems to be phoning it in half the time and airing this weird grudge he has about women half the rest of the time" (for example) then that's a much more interesting contribution to any meaningful discourse.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;621290Personally, I think that's normal and reasonable. Say there are two fans of a writer, and one says "I liked this and this, but I thought this other thing he wrote was way below par." The second fan says "I'm no 'fair weather fan!' I love everything he wrote." Even if I disagree, I'd pay more attention to what the first fan has to say. The second comes across more like a hanger-on or a groupie working their hanger-on/groupie agenda.
I also think that's normal and reasonable. I used the term "fair weather fan" because I dislike the way people tend to like only one creation of a person above all others, like I said in the previous message.
And I'd like to see nuanced criticism. For instance, you've been good at that, but I see others just say "LA was generic and boring", or "Yggsburg was shallow and generic" without going into specific reasons. I've been clear, for instance, that I did not like Gary's tendency to stray away from creating his own myth and using real-earth Mythologies for deities. I think he was incapbable of creating a good "Basic Set" for his works. The problem is, I see Gary hitting all the beats with several of his projects and people rejecting it. (Mostly because people aren't going into many specific details on why they dislike Yggsburg or LA).
I find it interesting about the "hangers on" comment--in my case I think it could be the opposite. One of the reason I did not involve myself in Castle Zagyg as much was because I saw so many people trying to get involved--there were over 50 writers wanting to work on that Yggsburg expansion project--I actually moved to work on LAR because I felt that's what needed attention and I did not want Gary to think I just wanted to see the D&D material. I felt the fact that fewer people wanted to volunteer to work on Gary's passion than the commercial project (and the ones they had most self-interest in support) was kind of a test to that. In other words, it's more likely most of the "groupies" wanted to get involved with CZ.
Ran across this insufferably pompous bit of pseudo-academic hot air (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/10/retrospective-temple-of-elemental-evil.html?m=1) and if I wrote crap like that I'd be hiding too if my stuff wasn't as good.
Quote from: CRKrueger;621667Ran across this insufferably pompous bit of pseudo-academic hot air (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/10/retrospective-temple-of-elemental-evil.html?m=1) and if I wrote crap like that I'd be hiding too if my stuff wasn't as good.
James has no idea what he is talking about. The tragedy is that some people really believe he's an expert.
Quote from: Benoist;621669James has no idea what he is talking about. The tragedy is that some people really believe he's an expert.
Half the time the guy's standing so deep in his own bullshit that his posts seem like a cross between the Absent-Minded Professor and Rainmain mumbling to himself.
Granted the guy has some great posts on there but talk about believing your own press, Jesus Wept.
A "retrospective" no less. What kind of a jackass...oh forget it. I'll leave it at jackass.
Quote from: JRT;621295I also think that's normal and reasonable. I used the term "fair weather fan" because I dislike the way people tend to like only one creation of a person above all others, like I said in the previous message.
Well, in this case, D&D was going to overshadow everything else he did, even if it was brilliant.
It's kind of like Robert Plant. He has a huge chip on his shoulder because Led Zeppelin was the greatest rock band ever, and his solo career was okay but not super. On his own merits, he's probably be ranked somewhere between Billy Squier and Night Ranger.
But most people achieve greatness only once in their life. Trying to chase after it again and again rather than embracing what you once did is somewhat vain
The post is long-winded and seems too afraid to say bad things about the Great Man's Legacy, but it is correct: the module is "solid and workmanlike, but it's not a classic on par with most of the Gygaxian canon or even lesser TSR works from 1978-1981 period". For being The Temple of Elemental EVIL, it is way too full of nondescript barrack rooms with "13 gnolls, 8 spears, a glaive-guisarme, 45 gp and a 4000 gp gemstone tucked in a crack in the wall".
Also, The Village of Hommlet is a prime example of how not to write a module about fantasy communities.
Starring Frank Mentzer as Commander Coattails.
What does that make make Tim Kask? Bogroll lint?
Quote from: Melan;621711Also, The Village of Hommlet is a prime example of how not to write a module about fantasy communities.
Would you unpack that statement Melan? I'd be interested in reading why you hold that view.
Sure. In a 20 page package,
The Village of Hommlet mostly consists of
- detailed descriptions of mundane peasants and craftsmen, as well as their hidden loot (thousands of gold pieces worth of stuff, actually) (33 keyed areas, 5 pages);
- detailed descriptions of four utterly generic village establishments: an inn, mapped and detailed from its common room to the cellars, mostly focused on what kind of random supplies are stored where (28 keyed areas); a trader's outpost which sells mundane equipment (13 keyed areas); a church (15 keyed areas); and a guard tower (11 keyed areas). Altogether, these four locales run 7 pages including maps.
- finally, we get an adventure site with 35 keyed areas, on 6 pages including maps.
About two thirds of the module are dedicated to describing a very generic rural community in detail, while only one third covers the actual adventure that happens in the area. Too much of it involves information on unremarkable things which have no bearing on either the suggested adventure or anything the players may come up with short of killing hapless villagers.
Its endless inventories, purposeless rooms and common NPCs rarely provide adventure hooks: in a similar package,
Keep on the Borderlands delivered 8 pages worth of information on the Keep, and a lot of it was interesting in some way. Hommlet's "Prosperous Farm", "Modest Farmhouse and Barn", "Cottage", "Well-Kept Farm", "Prosperous Farmhouse" and "House With Leather Hide Tacked to the Front Door" (the first six locales) tell us nothing about adventure. The Inn, Trader's Outpost, Church and Watch Tower are all potentially relevant, but do we need to have them detailed so obsessively? Couldn't it all fit on half as many pages? Actually, we have encounters which get it right: there is a description of a druid's grove, and it all fits on a quarter page, including the locale description, the druid's stats, plans and ways he may interact with the PCs -- isn't that enough?
Make no mistake, home bases play a relevant role in gaming, and providing examples of the establishments you may find there is a good thing. There is a lot of potential in giving the GM a small settlement and detailing a few adventure-relevant sites, NPCs and a bunch of plot hooks. But The Village of Hommlet simply does not do it well.
Quote from: Melan;621729There is a lot of potential in giving the GM a small settlement and detailing a few adventure-relevant sites, NPCs and a bunch of plot hooks. But The Village of Hommlet simply does not do it well.
A lot of that seems like info the GM should be able to fill in for himself.
Quote from: Melan;621729Sure. In a 20 page package, The Village of Hommlet mostly consists of
- detailed descriptions of mundane peasants and craftsmen, as well as their hidden loot (thousands of gold pieces worth of stuff, actually) (33 keyed areas, 5 pages);
- detailed descriptions of four utterly generic village establishments: an inn, mapped and detailed from its common room to the cellars, mostly focused on what kind of random supplies are stored where (28 keyed areas); a trader's outpost which sells mundane equipment (13 keyed areas); a church (15 keyed areas); and a guard tower (11 keyed areas). Altogether, these four locales run 7 pages including maps.
- finally, we get an adventure site with 35 keyed areas, on 6 pages including maps.
About two thirds of the module are dedicated to describing a very generic rural community in detail, while only one third covers the actual adventure that happens in the area. Too much of it involves information on unremarkable things which have no bearing on either the suggested adventure or anything the players may come up with short of killing hapless villagers.
Its endless inventories, purposeless rooms and common NPCs rarely provide adventure hooks: in a similar package, Keep on the Borderlands delivered 8 pages worth of information on the Keep, and a lot of it was interesting in some way. Hommlet's "Prosperous Farm", "Modest Farmhouse and Barn", "Cottage", "Well-Kept Farm", "Prosperous Farmhouse" and "House With Leather Hide Tacked to the Front Door" (the first six locales) tell us nothing about adventure. The Inn, Trader's Outpost, Church and Watch Tower are all potentially relevant, but do we need to have them detailed so obsessively? Couldn't it all fit on half as many pages? Actually, we have encounters which get it right: there is a description of a druid's grove, and it all fits on a quarter page, including the locale description, the druid's stats, plans and ways he may interact with the PCs -- isn't that enough?
Make no mistake, home bases play a relevant role in gaming, and providing examples of the establishments you may find there is a good thing. There is a lot of potential in giving the GM a small settlement and detailing a few adventure-relevant sites, NPCs and a bunch of plot hooks. But The Village of Hommlet simply does not do it well.
I'd have to say just the opposite. Village of Hommlet is a masterpiece for a low level village community. The details provide endless resources for the DM that a random list of tables in a village generator does not.
The community of Hommlet has a sense of activity and life. The detailing of the Inn, where the players will spend a great deal of their time in the village, the church, the tower under construction, the general store, where low level PCs will be heading to hawk their loot, all are the places where the players will be finding hirelings, healing, adventure hooks, spell training etc...
The Village of Hommlet is one of Gygax's masterpeices. It has a vitality and depth that transcends the written word or the paper and ink it was printed on. Fantastic cartography as well.
Quote from: Melan;621729Its endless inventories, purposeless rooms and common NPCs rarely provide adventure hooks: in a similar package, Keep on the Borderlands delivered 8 pages worth of information on the Keep, and a lot of it was interesting in some way.
I found Hommlet a lot more interesting than the Keep, and lot easier to weave plot hooks into. I found the Keep woefully under-developed tbh.
"On the current debate regarding its megadungeon status, I side with Joseph Bloch and say that, for both historical and stylistic reasons, The Temple of Elemental Evil does not qualify as a true megadungeon."
It's kind of pathetic that there was ever a debate about Temple of Elemental Evil that people felt the need to publicly declare their stance on, isn't it?
Quote from: jadrax;621762I found Hommlet a lot more interesting than the Keep, and lot easier to weave plot hooks into. I found the Keep woefully under-developed tbh.
In the early 90s I rewrote the Village of Hommlet and the Moathouse for GURPS. My plan was to tie it to the Slavelord series (also revised for GURPS) so Lareth(?) the head bad guy of the Moathouse was transformed into a minor slavelord and the two merchant spies in the village as slaver agents.
I included a plot where the slavers attempted to disrupt the construction of Bruno and Rufus's castle by creating tensions between the workers and the village. The main sticking point was that the workers felt that the innkeeper was gouging them for beer. Which was exacerbated by the workers attempt to buy their own hogshead of beer elsewhere and import it in. A violation of the Welcome Wench's guild monopoly.
The players get into the plot when the kids of the workers threw a rock through their window at the inn. Which escalates into a potential riot as the village council wants to make an example of the kids. When I ran it the players did the detective work and connected the dot to figure out it all led back to the merchant spies. From there they figured out that the Moathouse was important. From the Moathouse they found a lot of the slavers plot for the region and choose to follow the leads.
Gygax did a great job with Hommlet, but the added plot really enhanced the module beyond what was originally. Not only the players found the added adventure an interesting challenge, it make the detailed information of the village pertinent to the resolution of the Moathouse.
Quote from: Melan;621729About two thirds of the module are dedicated to describing a very generic rural community in detail, while only one third covers the actual adventure that happens in the area. Too much of it involves information on unremarkable things which have no bearing on either the suggested adventure or anything the players may come up with short of killing hapless villagers.
I have to disagree in part, if you are 13 years old and have no idea what a medievalish rural village looked like, Hommlet was invaluable as a template. After my own experience in rewriting Hommlet for GURPS in the early 90s I do feel that the module as a hole could have been made stronger by adding plots that tie the moathouse back into the village.
Quote from: misterguignol;621765"On the current debate regarding its megadungeon status, I side with Joseph Bloch and say that, for both historical and stylistic reasons, The Temple of Elemental Evil does not qualify as a true megadungeon."
It's kind of pathetic that there was ever a debate about Temple of Elemental Evil that people felt the need to publicly declare their stance on, isn't it?
It did make me wonder what would be examples of "true megadungeons". Are they any historic published ones?
Quote from: Grymbok;621772It did make me wonder what would be examples of "true megadungeons". Are they any historic published ones?
Blackmoor in Judges Guild First Fantasy Campaign. It is pretty sketchy tho.
Tegal Manor is the only historic adventure I would call a mega dungeon in the sense people mean today.
Quote from: JasonZavodaI'd have to say just the opposite. Village of Hommlet is a masterpiece for a low level village community. The details provide endless resources for the DM that a random list of tables in a village generator does not.
The community of Hommlet has a sense of activity and life. The detailing of the Inn, where the players will spend a great deal of their time in the village, the church, the tower under construction, the general store, where low level PCs will be heading to hawk their loot, all are the places where the players will be finding hirelings, healing, adventure hooks, spell training etc...
Quote from: estar;621771I have to disagree in part, if you are 13 years old and have no idea what a medievalish rural village looked like, Hommlet was invaluable as a template. After my own experience in rewriting Hommlet for GURPS in the early 90s I do feel that the module as a hole could have been made stronger by adding plots that tie the moathouse back into the village.
I bought T1-4 when I was 14, and while it was good compared to 2e's general AD&D modules (which tended to be very badly written and weren't even playtested at TSR), Hommlet struck me even then as too much about uninteresting and obvious things. There are adventure-relevant personalities and intrigues in the village, but presenting them and omitting the random farmers and coopers would have been enough. Instead, we have stuff like this:
Spoiler
3. COTTAGE: This rustic abode houses the local woodcutter
(0 level militiaman, leather armor, battleaxe, crossbow; 6 hit
points), his wife, and 3 young children. He has nothing of
interest to adventurers and is not interested in adventuring. He
is of druidical religion, and he repolts anything unusual to
the Druid of the Grove (24., below). In a pouch under the
floorboards of his cottage are 9 g.p., 13 e.p., 17 s.P., and
4. WELL-KEPT FARM: The house and barn show that this farmer is
doing well, and the stock in the fenced-in yard are very fine
looking. A widow and her two grown sons (0 level militiamen,
leather armor, spears, hand axe, club; 4 hit points each),
their wives, and 8 children dwell here. They are interested in
neither trade nor adventuring.
As are most folks in the village, these people are followers
of druidism. The two sons have a large iron pot buried
beneath the tree in the back yard; it holds 97 g.p. and
421 S.P.
5. PROSPEROUS FARMHOUSE: This farmer is a widower (0 level
militiaman, leather armor, shield, sword; 3 hit points) of
middle age, with 5 children, the eldest being two daughters,
and a manservant laborer (0 level militiaman, no armor,
voulge, club; 6 hit points). He is the brotherofthefarmertothe
south (I., above), and quite distant and taciturn. He turns
folks away unless they have farm business. Inside a crock in
the manure pile are hidden 3 50 g.p. gems, 37 p.p., and 55
g.p. He carries 8 p.p., 15 g.p., 22 s.p. and 8 coppers in his
purse.
...
3. LOCKED STORAGE: A well and heavy stone walls keep this
room cool, and here perishable cheeses, butter, meats, and
so on are kept. Smaller barrels of ale, beer, mead, and table
wine are also in this room.
4. LOCKED STORAGE: This is the wine cellar, and the rarest wines
and brandies in butts and tuns are along the walls, while
shelving in the center holds small casks and pottery jars of the
same.
I am on the mind that the existence of these "not interested in adventure or adventurers" kind of denizens could be summed up in an introduction, and it could also establish the mood of the module. We lose the widower's 8 p.p., 15 g.p., 22 s.p. and 8 coppers and the crock in the manure pile (not that I begrudge
~skilled adventurers~ their due rewards), but gain a more focused, game-ready product, or maybe a small wilderness area around Hommlet.
The other way would be to provide descriptions for more locales, but add adventure hooks: this is the way taken by the (infinitely more interesting)
City State of the Invincible Overlord, where the shopkeepers are retired 4th level Fighting Men keeping trolls in the basement, and the neighbourhood tavern has a secret door leading to the Thieves Guild and the Temple of the Toad. Come to think of it, this is also why I am a fan of the Wilderlands, and not so much Greyhawk.
Quote from: Grymbok;621772It did make me wonder what would be examples of "true megadungeons". Are they any historic published ones?
My short answer is that there aren't, because the adventure formats are not really adapted to the reality of the mega-dungeon (its scale, dynamism, its relationship to the campaign in process, the organic creative process it represents, etc). See there for a more developed answer. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=518418#post518418)
Quote from: Melan;621774I bought T1-4 when I was 14, and while it was good compared to 2e's general AD&D modules (which tended to be very badly written and weren't even playtested at TSR), Hommlet struck me even then as too much about uninteresting and obvious things. There are adventure-relevant personalities and intrigues in the village, but presenting them and omitting the random farmers and coopers would have been enough. Instead, we have stuff like this:
Spoiler
3. COTTAGE: This rustic abode houses the local woodcutter
(0 level militiaman, leather armor, battleaxe, crossbow; 6 hit
points), his wife, and 3 young children. He has nothing of
interest to adventurers and is not interested in adventuring. He
is of druidical religion, and he repolts anything unusual to
the Druid of the Grove (24., below). In a pouch under the
floorboards of his cottage are 9 g.p., 13 e.p., 17 s.P., and
4. WELL-KEPT FARM: The house and barn show that this farmer is
doing well, and the stock in the fenced-in yard are very fine
looking. A widow and her two grown sons (0 level militiamen,
leather armor, spears, hand axe, club; 4 hit points each),
their wives, and 8 children dwell here. They are interested in
neither trade nor adventuring.
As are most folks in the village, these people are followers
of druidism. The two sons have a large iron pot buried
beneath the tree in the back yard; it holds 97 g.p. and
421 S.P.
5. PROSPEROUS FARMHOUSE: This farmer is a widower (0 level
militiaman, leather armor, shield, sword; 3 hit points) of
middle age, with 5 children, the eldest being two daughters,
and a manservant laborer (0 level militiaman, no armor,
voulge, club; 6 hit points). He is the brotherofthefarmertothe
south (I., above), and quite distant and taciturn. He turns
folks away unless they have farm business. Inside a crock in
the manure pile are hidden 3 50 g.p. gems, 37 p.p., and 55
g.p. He carries 8 p.p., 15 g.p., 22 s.p. and 8 coppers in his
purse.
...
3. LOCKED STORAGE: A well and heavy stone walls keep this
room cool, and here perishable cheeses, butter, meats, and
so on are kept. Smaller barrels of ale, beer, mead, and table
wine are also in this room.
4. LOCKED STORAGE: This is the wine cellar, and the rarest wines
and brandies in butts and tuns are along the walls, while
shelving in the center holds small casks and pottery jars of the
same.
I agree with Jason here. I think this format did have its place in the module, and that it is better for it. That does NOT mean I would have liked to see the Keep of B2 described in a similar fashion, mind you - in fact, I'm saying that it's a good thing that they are each treated differently according to their own separate contexts. Village of Hommlet, and ToEE in general, is not your usual bare bones module and yet, it still asks of you to bring the actual play to the table to spin this thing into life. It's not meant to be a static environment, in other words, and as such, as a support for play, as opposed to a script of play, it does its job really well.
Quote from: misterguignol;621765"On the current debate regarding its megadungeon status, I side with Joseph Bloch and say that, for both historical and stylistic reasons, The Temple of Elemental Evil does not qualify as a true megadungeon."
It's kind of pathetic that there was ever a debate about Temple of Elemental Evil that people felt the need to publicly declare their stance on, isn't it?
If you're going to the mattresses over whether ToEE is a "megadungeon" you need to go outside and not return home until you have touched a pair of naked breasts you've never seen before.
Quote from: CRKrueger;621823If you're going to the mattresses over whether ToEE is a "megadungeon" you need to go outside and not return home until you have touched a pair of naked breasts you've never seen before.
Careful, that could result in a case of bastardy, and we all know that's bad.
Quote from: CRKrueger;621823If you're going to the mattresses over whether ToEE is a "megadungeon" you need to go outside and not return home until you have touched a pair of naked breasts you've never seen before.
My wife might have something to say about that... ;)
I can see both sides on T1. Yeah, there's a lot of great atmosphere (a lot of which comes from the great maps, and Trampier's illustrations) that would be lost with a less detailed treatment and make the place feel less like "home" - plus the Inn of the Welcome Wench at least is someplace most parties are likely to be spending a lot of time in so it's worth having a detailed map of - but OTOH so much of the detail is so mundane that it's never going to be adventure-relevant (and the details on each mundane villager's (often substantial) treasure hoard is downright weird); I've run the adventure several times and never felt the need for the map of either the Church or the Guard Tower. A combination of less mundane detail, more interesting hooks on the seemingly-mundane stuff (that enterprising GMs could spin into whole subplots if they wanted to), a wilderness map with a few more red-herring encounter areas beyond the Moat House, and this would've been a stronger - more interesting and more useful - product. As it is, reading all that stuff helps the GM get a mental picture of the place, but in actual play (at least the play I've experienced, on both sides of the table) almost all that stuff gets ignored and the players don't even get the same mental picture the GM does. Honestly, a couple more Trampier illustrations like the one on page 3 - perhaps looking towards the Inn from the north, and looking east from the Inn towards the Guard Tower - would've done much more to establish the mood and feel of the place than all that text detailing how Farmer #12 feels about his neighbors and where he keeps his stash of electrum pieces.
What's most disappointing is that Gary himself obviously didn't feel this way and not only repeated the "errors" of Hommlet with Yggsburgh, he vastly multiplied them - Hommlet's 12 pages of mostly mundane, non-play-relevant detail become 100+ pages in Yggsburgh, and if Gary had gotten his way and the Yggsburgh Expansion Project was actually published would've become 1000+ pages of mundane inventory lists and enumerated mundane relationships between non-adventuring NPCs that no players will ever know or care about. Yeah, some GMs might be able to spin adventure hooks out of that detail but, you know what, those GMs can spin adventure hooks just as well out of material that's actually intrinsically interesting too!
Quote from: KenHR;621824Careful, that could result in a case of bastardy, and we all know that's bad.
Touche.
Bastardy, christ what a puffed-up windbag. You get to talk like that if you graduated from Oxford, otherwise give it a rest dude, look in the mirror and get the fuck over yourself.
Quote from: Novastar;621882My wife might have something to say about that... ;)
If you have a wife that actually lets you touch her breasts on occasion, you have no time to go to the mattresses over whether ToEE is a megadungeon. :D
Quote from: T. Foster;621894What's most disappointing is that Gary himself obviously didn't feel this way and not only repeated the "errors" of Hommlet with Yggsburgh, he vastly multiplied them -
My impression of this is it a result of Gygax writing about the reality of the setting. Sure there are fantastic elements but everything follows from the premise. And if there isn't a specific premise or exception then the rule is to follow reality.
In short Hommlet is written the way it is because that how it would existed given all his assumptions and knowledge.
This is fine except it can be carried to an extreme. If care is not taken then it can overwhelm the main purpose of the book. What I did in Scourge was separate the two. Only the necessary details about the village of Kensla are supplied in the adventure half. While in the supplement half I wrote out the detail. Although I did try to write the additional detail in a few words as possible.
In this regard I handled it much like how Harn adventures are handled. Harn is divided into numerous articles about locales, people, and other topics. The adventures are no exception. Except that adventure articles are just about the adventure, the usual details about any locales are kept in a separate article. The "product" is a bundle of articles some about the adventure and the rest detailing the locales used in the adventure.
I found I prefer this approach than to intermix adventure and locale detail.
Quote from: Melan;621729Sure. In a 20 page package, The Village of Hommlet mostly consists of ...
Thanks for that thoughtful post Melan, cheers!
I don't think Hommlet is great overall, but remember, at the time it was published, there weren't other examples of what a village should look like. That it's home base heavy and adventure light is reasonable to me given that.
Quote from: CRKrueger;621903Touche.
Bastardy, christ what a puffed-up windbag. You get to talk like that if you graduated from Oxford
Indeed, 'tis a common word in these parts. On a bastardy summer's eve we'd don our bastardy sub fusc and pole our bastardy punts along the bastardy Cherwell buttering bastardy crumpets.
T. Foster: I concur.
TheHistorian: Not to put too fine a point on it, but around the time of Hommlet, we've also got another model of fantasy villages that goes right the other way: Bob Bledsaw's Tegel Village and the more obscure 'Huberic of Haghill' (from
Initial Guidelines Booklet L and
Booklet K (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/81931/Initial-Guidelines-Booklet-K-%281977%29?src=s_pi), respectively). These booklets have a punchy sort of minimalism that predate today's "one page dungeons", and it is interesting how differently they tackle the same concept.
Instead of a dedicated product, they spend about a single page on a village, providing a very bare-bones concept in one or two paragraphs, and ultra-brief NPC descriptions such as:
Spoiler
Ternelmor, LE FTR 7 +1 Sword
Mayor, organizer of the militia and builder of the great citadel
Anthora, LG CL 5 Mace & Staff
Priestess of the Temple of Thor, losing attendance to Sarthoggus' temple on the hill
Mordacity Maghoula, CE FTR 6 +1 Battle Axe
Churlish leader of the militia
Brinna Birgit, CG AMAZON 4 Sword and Horsebow
Blunt, enterprising spear-maiden
This is basically the opposite of Gary's treatment, and what I find interesting in it is that it also conveys a certain idea of a village, which will be very different from GM to GM due to the minimalistic treatment, but which still has common touchstones. One gets the idea that while Hommlet is a home of stout yeomanry, Tegel and Haghill are populated by, well, a motley assortment of losers and common opportunists. Certainly, you'd find
lots of bastardy in either of these places (Haghill, a nominally Neutral fortress-settlement, has a temple dedicated to Yezud the spider god - it is a bit like Keep on the Borderlands for assholes).
Now this approach has its own problems, since if you want to get a clear idea about the lives of inhabitants and a sense of belonging, you will not be getting it.* In that way, Hommlet obviously needs more detail since it is a vulnerable rural idyll being treathened by the Temple of Elemental Evil (unlike Tegel, which gives off the idea of uneasy coexistence and occasional collaboration). But I don't think it needs that much. To give Gary his due, the one-page background is already effective at painting a picture of Hommlet and its situation. Add three or four pages, and I think it would be good to go. My ideal Hommlet would be more like a mini-gazetteer of the area, with the village, the moathouse, its evil twin Nulb, and a collection of smaller encounter areas in the Gnarley Forest.
_____________________
* I've got the same problem with one page dungeons: they tend to feel a page or two too short.
Quote from: estar;621771I have to disagree in part, if you are 13 years old and have no idea what a medievalish rural village looked like, Hommlet was invaluable as a template. After my own experience in rewriting Hommlet for GURPS in the early 90s I do feel that the module as a hole could have been made stronger by adding plots that tie the moathouse back into the village.
Agreed here. One of the reasons I didn't buy (or use)
Hommlet, or
Keep on the Borderlands is because we had already been designing villages and plot hooks for years before these supplements even came out.
There were a few good supplements out for that, mostly Judges Guild stuff, but there was also plenty of good fiction to draw on, and that all really took off right around 1980 or so.
We spent considerable time doing intensive research into just what was available in medieval times to make our settlements believable. Now to be sure, we added favorites cool stuff from movies and books of the time to make it more interesting. It was not easy though... there weren't many easily accessible reference works. The Internet made that kind of research much, much, easier.
Our story hooks invariably involved NPC's and their relationships, as well political relations with nearby kingdoms and races. These were the plot hooks that made our early games.
Wish I had my scanner working, as I would upload some maps and early reference works from the mid 80's to around 1992 or so. Some of the oldest D&D maps I managed to hang onto over the years. This was all 0D&D, even though it was created starting in 1986. I just never really joined the 1e AD&D bandwagon.
Etrania was the largest feudal kingdom in the Northern Kingdoms, with tech comparable to about late 11th century Europe.
Pl
ayer's Introduction~In the year 3439 the army of Gray Orcs swept north over the mountains and attacked the high cities of Etrania. All of the cities and fortresses held out that winter, but one, Kavesh. In the winter of 3439 the walls were breached by the Orc army, and the city was looted, and burned. The Orcs took prisoners and then fled south back to their mountain strongholds when the army of King Edward V arrived to relieve the defenders in late February. Only a few scattered bands of people returned, those who had been surviving hidden in the wilderness returned to rebuild the city. You are among them, and have been living off the lean winter land for almost two months before banners of the king were once again spotted flying over Kavesh. Describe to the other players that you have just met at the winter camp, how you have survived the orc patrols, and how you have gathered food and resources, for a day of celebration is at hand, Kavesh is once again safe in the protection of the King.Here is where the campaign starts.
My notes as a GM for running this includes the following;
Kavesh is a walled city located on the west bank of a North-South river (The in heavily wooded foothill country. Kavesh once had a population of over 9,000. Now only 1,500 people remain, as well as a garrison of 200 that the King has left, to help rebuild the city. Kavesh is a hunter/gatherer community, with wood and mining resources less than a days ride from the city.
Raw material prices in Kavesh will double (or more) for at least six months. Roll percentiles 1d100 and add 10. If a result is over 100, a plague will follow the fire in 1d4+1 months. Roll precentile dice again, and add 10, if the result is over 100, a famine will follow the fire by 1d4+2 months and the cities grain supply was burned in the fire as well.
Major locations in Kavesh still standing;Royal Palace
Inner Keep
Poor Quarter
Prison/Merchants Quarter
Guard Quarters
Central Square
Rivergate (with two bastion towers over the river)
Bridgegate(South of rivergate, elevated road with two bastion towers, also crosses the river)
Southgate(intact)
Westgate{Intact)
Northgate(Damaged but intact)
Northeast Gate (Heavily Damaged)
Inn (intact)
Tavern(Intact)
Keepsgate(Damaged but intact)
All the rest of the buildings have been heavily damaged or burned. The King's guard has setup their garrison in the Guard Quarters adjacent to the Warehouse district.
Notable NPC'sKing Edward V (22nd lvl Paladin)
Prince William II (12th Lvl Fighter, Ruler of Dragon's Gate Castle.)
Prince Thomas (6th Lvl Fighter, Ruler of Seamist Castle (Nearest friendly castle!!)
In charge of the reconstruction of Kavesh is
Marshal Reavenhelm (10th Lvl Paladin) of St. Hayden Towers. He has his personal guard of 51 soldiers (1st lvl) and 20 Knights (4th-8th Lvl) with the city garrison. The remaining 120 Soldiers, 3 wizards (7th, 2nd, 2nd), and 10 service people (Smiths, Armorers, & Cooks) answer only to King Edward himself being detached for temporary reconstruction duty with the Marshal.
Timeline of public events (after the game begins).
Month 1, 3rd week, 5th day - Recruiting, Soldiers are needed by the Marshal. The include enforced levies of peasants, and bounties offered for capable officers, and experienced mercenaries (players?)
Month 2, 3rd Week, 6th day - A New religion or sect of an established religion appears in the city quickly gaining converts and followers
Month 3, 3rd Week, 2nd day - Really bad weather - Massive week-long snow storm. Spring crop failure. Food prices rise 1d10x4%.
Month 4, 2nd week, 7th day - Excessive taxes. The King levies a heavy new tax on every adult (10 Sp) to finance reconstruction of the walls and castle. While there is no uprising, crime and bandit activity will increase during this month by 20%.
Month 5, 2nd Week, 9th day - Local Noble or Official has a child. City declares a 3 day holiday.
Month 6, 2nd week, 9th day - Notable Local Merchant dies during a hunt. 1 Day of Mourning declared.
Month 7, Week 1, day 1 - Bad Harvest (Main harvest of the year is decimated by poor spring weather). A famine will begin that will last for six months. Marauder groups appear scavenging for food of any kind. Food prices will increase by an additional 100% for the duration of the famine.
Month 8, Week 2, Day 1 - Famine intensifies. Population of the city reduced by 5% as people leave the region. Heavy looting and bandit activity (even in the city itself).
Month 9, Week 2, Day 1 - Quiet, no other unusual events.
Month 10, Week 3, Day 10 - Terrible accident occurs. One of the two remaining river bridges (with the towers) collapse.
Exceptional Treasures Hoskulder's KeyOriginally invented by the Dwarf Hoskulder as a gift to the prince of the Avars, an eastern Thieves Guild, the master key has manually adjustable teeth providing a 10% bonus to any lockpicking attempt which uses a skeleton type key. Made of hardened silver the key is worth 150 GP to any thief, and even more to an experienced guild thief. The Avars have a 1,000 GP reward, for the return of this key.
Tamerthya ArrowsMade from the feathers of the legendary Tamertheon Gull, the Tamerthya arrows are unusually long, and extremely accurate in the hands of an experienced bowman. (+1 to hit (non-magical). 1 GP each.
Stone Tablets of Kuz-KhulA pair of stone tablets, each approximately 16" high, 10" Wide, and 1/2" Thick. On the tablets are chiselled instructions in the Common tongue, Elven, and Dwarven along with a map leading to the fabled treasure horde of the wizard Kuz-Khul. Value 1,500 Gp
Unusual Creatures in the Region:Ssarri (The Spotted Fur Lizards)NA - 2d10 (2d100 in lair)
Intelligence - Semi-Intelligent
Type - Reptile
Alignment - NE
Speed - 12
AC 5
HD 1/2
Special Characteristics - 3 segment body
Damahe 1d6 bite, 1d3 claw, 1d3 claw
Treasure Type - K, M
In lair 20%
Physical description - Six-legged 4-1/2 foot long hair covered, spotted fur lizards.
Ssari hunt Charonis and especially like to ambush Charonis by waiting in trees and jumping down ambushing the walkers. They will sometimes attack humans when very hungry.
RackersNumber Appearing: 1d6
Intelligence - High
Type - Undead
Alignment - CG
Speed 9
AC 6
HD 1-1
Special Characteristics - Will always attack other undead immediately
Damage: 1d6 or by Weapon Type
Treasure Type - Special/None
In Lair 10%
Size - Medium
Physical Description: Rackers are undead humans created by a necromancer especially to slay other undead. Rackers will not usually attack humans unless defending their lair or designated areas that they are ordered to gaurd.
Rackers attack only to defend and never pursue humans and demi-humans.
New Spells available in KaveshDetect Divinity (2nd Lvl Cleric) (Divination)
Range 3"+1"/lvl
Duration - 2 rounds/lvl
Area of Effect - 1" path
Components - V/S
Casting time - 4/10th of a round
Saving Throw: None
This spell reveals emanations of a specific deity (named by the spellcaster) in the area of effect. Any object, holy or sacred to the deity, or any object affected by the deity radiate with an aura visible to the spellcaster and the spellcaster only.
Block (2nd Lvl MU) (Divination)
Range - 1/2" lvl, 9" maximum.
Duration - 1 rd / lvl
Area of effect - 1 creature or human/humanoid per block
Components - V,S,M
Casting Time - 2/10th of a round
Saving Throw - None (Divination)
Component - Copper Piece
When a block spell is used, the caster is able to block one ESP spell in use. Any other mage or cleric in the area using an ESP spell will not be able to detect the spellcaster as well as any single target designated by the spellcaster at the time the block spell is cast.
Gleaming Gems (2nd Lvl MU) (Alteration)
Range - 1"
Duration - 6 turns / lvl
Area of Effect - One gem stone or jewel per level of the magic user.
Components - V,S,M
Casting Time - 1 Round
Saving Throw - None
Component - Small Mirror (Destroyed when the spell is cast)
Gems and Jewels can be temporarily changed to appear more valuable for the duration of this spell. The base value of any gemstone or jewel is increased by (1d4+1) 2-5x for the duration of Gleaming Gems. Any person examining a gem or jewel with this spell cast on it must make a successful saving throw vs. magic. If the person or creature makes the saving throw he/she/it will correctly value the gemstone in question provided he/she/it has experience in correctly evaluating the worth of gems/jewels.
I also have a five level dungeon ready to go for this adventure, the renowned Grey Orc City, and notes for about 25 additional settlements in the kingdom, comparable to this.
I ran this mini-campaign in 1988, 1992, and in 1997 as well. I really should scan the city, area, and dungeon maps I have for this, and post them in this thread. Here also is an example of Masterwork Weapons, ten years before they were added to 3e D&D.
Quote from: T. Foster;621894I've run the adventure several times and never felt the need for the map of either the Church or the Guard Tower.
I've used both locations, but not in Hommlet. One of the things I've often done with mediocre adventures is cut them up and re-use the bits in other contexts; I usually find mundane detail helpful.
I wish published D&D adventures had contained more boats than just the Sea Ghost, and more tollbooths and farmsteads for goblins or bugbears to attack or weird one-eyed clay idols to be found in.
Quote from: P&P;622116I wish published D&D adventures had contained more boats than just the Sea Ghost, and more tollbooths and farmsteads for goblins or bugbears to attack or weird one-eyed clay idols to be found in.
I second the motion.
Odd as it may sound, I enjoyed all the first hand experience shared on the tax implications for kickstart models under this type, origin and scale of project, as described a few posts up the thread.
I noticed while converting Hommlet to a system for my own use that Gary wrote in a compartmented manner, which is magnified to an extreme by the layout set in modules and other game related content. It is certainly one of the major audience hurdles to his technical writing, taking the compartments and visualizing all of it in three dimensions, in an invocative sense. I have found that same sense while bringing many sections of the Dungeon Masters Guide into play at the same time. Even later works that had a greater level of editor involvement had this compartmentalized way of organizing concepts. These are just my thoughts on the Village of the Hommlet.
Quote from: P&P;622116I've used both locations, but not in Hommlet. One of the things I've often done with mediocre adventures is cut them up and re-use the bits in other contexts; I usually find mundane detail helpful.
I wish published D&D adventures had contained more boats than just the Sea Ghost, and more tollbooths and farmsteads for goblins or bugbears to attack or weird one-eyed clay idols to be found in.
Quote from: The Butcher;622135I second the motion.
I certainly agree with the need for more boats and all types of bits and pieces for players to be involved too. Such things were and are too often a matter of location I, lair II and castle III.
Edit: Ya, I don’t like doing days later edits, but it has been bothering me whenever I stop by therpgsite that my comments about Hommlet might seem harsh or something to those that actually read them. I was just trying to express why sometimes Gary’s written work can be at times opaque to some that read it, rather than simply stating it was a matter of organization that is most often mentioned as the cause. I love a bunch of the stuff Gary wrote for his games, though. I don’t want anyone to thing otherwise. I have spoke of how I like Lejendary Advenutres in a thread awhile back after all, and there are a great many others, like the good old DM’s Guide.
Quote from: Melan;621994This is basically the opposite of Gary's treatment, and what I find interesting in it is that it also conveys a certain idea of a village, which will be very different from GM to GM due to the minimalistic treatment, but which still has common touchstones. One gets the idea that while Hommlet is a home of stout yeomanry, Tegel and Haghill are populated by, well, a motley assortment of losers and common opportunists. Certainly, you'd find lots of bastardy in either of these places (Haghill, a nominally Neutral fortress-settlement, has a temple dedicated to Yezud the spider god - it is a bit like Keep on the Borderlands for assholes).
I think there is room for both approaches as long. My caveat is that if you are going to detail a village make it separate thing and not something you have to read completely to play out some adventure.
Also Harn settlements are a pretty goods example of an intermediate step between the brief Judges Guild style and the verbose Hommlet style. Especially those articles produced in the 1980s.
From the 1980s City of Thay article
-------------------------------------------------------
17. Village of Shietra
A village of semi-urban poor folk who are mostly involved in Thay's fishing industry. Shietra is under the jurisdiction of the city; property holders pay (reduced) property taxes. A few villagers have vegetable plots on the south side of the settlement. About half of them graze goats or other livestock on the commons.
18. PHYSICIAN (Urith of Wasel)
Size: 2 Quality: *** Prices:Average
19. PHYSICIAN (Ortin of Dyselsen)
Size: 1 Quality: **** Prices:average
20. PHYSICIAN (Anfla of Daasain)
Size: 3 Quality: ***** Prices:High+
One of the best doctors on Harn. He may reduce his fee for poor folks.
21. RUINED TEMPLE
An abandoned and former Temple of Peoni, looted and destroyed by the Ivinians during the Rape of Thay in 705. The Church of Peoni, reluctant to re-occupy this desecrated ground, constructed a new temple [25] and view this ruin as a "war memorial". Few locals visit the site because of its proximity to the leper colony [16]
-------------------------------------------------------
Pretty much an entire city is described in four pages.
Quote from: JRT;621087, rather than fans of his writing style.
LOL, I'm a fan of Gary's writing style in the same way I'm a fan of the dialogue in Santa Clause vs The Martians.
I have to admit, I always found Hommlet a little dull. And a huge percentage of the material in it was doomed never to be used unless you had a party with a lot of thieves who planned to do some catburglary, or rampant lunatics who planned to do a lot of home invasions.
RPGPundit
My favorite "village" that I used back in the day was Modron from Judges Guild. It was a terrible place full of scum and opportunity. I did a Modron campaign where they place teleported itself around the world ala Space 1999.
I should check out Tegel Manor again.
I don't know what is the "right amount" of detail because Hommlet sold a metric fuckton of copies and people still rave about T1. Also, Palladium overdetails their NPCs in the extreme and on their forums, that's one of the major selling points for many people.
I am more in the camp of short & sweet, but a full paragraph is fine too. I'm not a fan of the half page writeups.
Quote from: RPGPundit;622482I have to admit, I always found Hommlet a little dull. And a huge percentage of the material in it was doomed never to be used unless you had a party with a lot of thieves who planned to do some catburglary, or rampant lunatics who planned to do a lot of home invasions.
Uh-oh I may be trouble with the review copy of Scourge of the Demon Wolf I sent you. ;)
Quote from: RPGPundit;622482. . . rampant lunatics who planned to do a lot of home invasions.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622511You say that like it's a bad thing.
Or at all uncommon in D&D. A dungeon is someone's underground home, after all...
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622511You say that like it's a bad thing.
I was re-reading my copy of Middle-earth last night just for the usual ideas, and I always find it fun that they included Raiding and Looting Attacks as two distinct types of scenarios of the six they present.
"Raiding – Raiding is an adventure designed to attack, fight and loot. It doesn’t have to be keyed to a specific adventure site. Player characters are out for any appropriate fight with a suitable reward (treasure and experience points).
Looting Attack – A looting attack is basically the same as raiding, except that the player characters are attacking a specific adventure site."
Just to give Middle-earth its due, the other scenario types offered as suggestions are: missions, scouting, tournaments, duels and general encounters (chance encounters). Even though Middle-earth is a plot centered game, they knew that A LOT of younger players [and older players too] would be all about raiding and looting anyway, and they were like, ‘that’s cool too’.
Quote from: estar;622505Uh-oh I may be trouble with the review copy of Scourge of the Demon Wolf I sent you. ;)
We'll see. I'm not saying I hate Hommlet, it was probably a book that needed to be made; just not sure that it needed everything that was in it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622511You say that like it's a bad thing.
Not necessarily, but not every party is going to be chaotic.
RPGPundit
Quote from: P&P;622116I've used both locations, but not in Hommlet. One of the things I've often done with mediocre adventures is cut them up and re-use the bits in other contexts; I usually find mundane detail helpful.
I wish published D&D adventures had contained more boats than just the Sea Ghost, and more tollbooths and farmsteads for goblins or bugbears to attack or weird one-eyed clay idols to be found in.
There were a few published in Dragon Magazine, like these two that I relabeled and colored in with MS Paint:
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n87/Elfdart/LargeMerchantShip.jpg)
I can't remember the issue, though.
New Dwimmermount update! Does not look good! Some details (paraphrased) below:
james has the IP and the cash - backers have the current PDF and can modify it for themselves and probably share those modifications amongst other backers. Autarch cant modify / edit / layout the PDF as it is James' IP
some of the backer rewards, such as the maps and the combat tracker are not IP - they will be released in a sperate kickstarter and backers that are waiting on such from the DM kickstarter will have their's fulfilled around that time
last talk with James Mal was on Nov 19, when he talked about the health problem in his family, but the indications were that they (James and the Autarch staff) would talk again at their next regular update - apparently didnt happen
some cool stuff with the upcoming Domains of War for ACKS and other OSR games, including a free 8 page condensed version so people can try it out
probably more
(as paraphrased by Erik Tenkar on G+)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1a7fPPEQhw&feature=youtu.be
Quote from: grimshwiz;623837last talk with James Mal was on Nov 19, when he talked about the health problem in his family, but the indications were that they (James and the Autarch staff) would talk again at their next regular update - apparently didnt happen
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_INq4s_G_4NE/TD9eDH4udlI/AAAAAAAAADM/CDkIOj69vU8/s1600/crashandburn.jpg)
Quote from: grimshwiz;623837some of the backer rewards, such as the maps and the combat tracker are not IP - they will be released in a sperate kickstarter and backers that are waiting on such from the DM kickstarter will have their's fulfilled around that time
(http://www.theautojunkyard.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/lambo-crash.jpg)
We're gonna need a bigger fire truck.
The clusterfuck continues.
Quote from: CRKrueger;621903If you have a wife that actually lets you touch her breasts on occasion, you have no time to go to the mattresses over whether ToEE is a megadungeon. :D
That's why you don't see me entering the ring :D
5 minutes of time to update backers on what's going on. That's what JMal would need to do to instill at least a hint of confidence in him.
Kudos to Tavis and Co. for keeping the communication going as much as they can.
Where are the critics? Only stuff I can find is sympathetic. My ass, he is a grown man. His father is SUPPOSED to die before him.
It is a deflectory lie or tactic to avoid facing the fucking truth:
The Grande Douche has health problems, namely procrastinata severus.
He is a lazy bum, that's what it is!
Now, I am as lazy as the next guy. But I did not take $50k and wrote pompously for years about vaporware and rat-turd-filled dungeon rooms!!!
Where is the rage? Links please!!!
I'm sure there will be rage in a few years when people still don't have product.
It seems like he's pulled a standard tactic on the internet. When faced with embarrassment online, pull the virtual sheets over your head and hope the boogeyman goes away. For most people, it's usually because they were humiliated by some comments or posts on a forum or blog, but they swallow their pride and come back. He's on the hook for $50,000 worth of stuff. Not so easy.
Quote from: Zachary The First;6239085 minutes of time to update backers on what's going on. That's what JMal would need to do to instill at least a hint of confidence in him.
Would a recap of an issue of Ares magazine suffice?
Quote from: Settembrini;623929Where are the critics? Only stuff I can find is sympathetic. My ass, he is a grown man. His father is SUPPOSED to die before him.
It is a deflectory lie or tactic to avoid facing the fucking truth:
The Grande Douche has health problems, namely procrastinata severus.
He is a lazy bum, that's what it is!
Now, I am as lazy as the next guy. But I did not take $50k and wrote pompously for years about vaporware and rat-turd-filled dungeon rooms!!!
Where is the rage? Links please!!!
There is some rage going on at YDIS; product of a superior culture that you are, you can find the way there, I'm certain.
There was actually quite a bit of anger expressed on G+ last week, but the troublemakers were shamed into silence. It is and largely has been a culture of get along at any cost, imo, if not since its inception, at least since the first self published products arrived on the scene.
Didn't he say a back in December or late November he was getting tired of blogging? Most people who are prolific like that for years don't just get tired of doing so. That was another hint of his upcoming disappearing act.
Quote from: Settembrini;623929Where is the rage? Links please!!!
Go ahead and take offense on behalf of fools.
I'll just laugh at you as well as the people who invested in this bland atrocity.
I gotta say, having watched that video, Autarch is bending over backwards to do everything possible to give people as much as they legally can.
It's how people react to adversity that tends to be the true test of their character, and I'd say this crises has shown that Tavis is on the up and up, and worth trusting. I'd give him my money in a future Kickstarter, if I wanted the product or service it was about.
Quote from: Zachary The First;6239085 minutes of time to update backers on what's going on. That's what JMal would need to do to instill at least a hint of confidence in him.
To be as far as possible to James, having a parent (or any other loved one) in failing health (or actually dying) takes it out of you. I can see how he'd want to put various responsibilities on the back burner and not think about them, or even have them completely slip his mind.
On the other hand, this isn't any ordinary chore or work task. It's an issue which
thousands of dollars of other peoples' money is riding on. So I also have some sympathy for the position that taking five minutes out of the hundred thousand minutes and change he's had since November 19th to keep the backers - or at least the
people who put their credibility on the line by putting their name on the Kickstarter for him - in the loop is the least he could have done. If one of my parents had a health crisis my work would be glad to give me all the time I need to deal with it (benefit of working in a small firm), but they'd be justifiably mad at me if I didn't keep them up to speed on when I expected to return.
Quote from: grimshwiz;623837some of the backer rewards, such as the maps and the combat tracker are not IP - they will be released in a sperate kickstarter and backers that are waiting on such from the DM kickstarter will have their's fulfilled around that time
Wooooah... really? I would strongly -
strongly - urge Autarch to reconsider that.
Firstly, if you are contemplating starting a Kickstarter to (wholly or in part) fund the rewards from a previous Kickstarter,
it's time to stop digging. That's just common sense. I'm surprised to hear in the video that KS are happy with people running Kickstarters to fund the rewards for other Kickstarters - I'd have thought they'd have been very reluctant to allow that to become a precedent, and I certainly wouldn't gamble on them allowing that in the long-term.
Secondly, the Kickstarter for the maps and stuff - whether it's a standalone Kickstarter or a Kickstarter for some other project which they happen to include the maps in - will have two big, fat albatrosses around its neck. One of them will be that the people who were very excited about Dwimmermount weren't just excited because it was any old megadungeon, it was a megadungeon penned by a well-respected OSR blogger with a fair amount of e-fame - e-fame which almost certainly had something to do with the Kickstarter succeeding to the extent that it did in the first place, and I'm not convinced that they're going to be able to muster the same level of enthusiasm for products which aren't actually James-approved.
The second albatross is the "throwing good money after bad" factor - although the maps can be made without James' involvement, the trouble afflicting the current Kickstarter can't help but infect people's feelings about the new one. People might not be keen to get the maps when there's no guarantee that the finalised version of the Dwimmermount material will ever materialise. On top of that, the sheer amount of nastiness which has erupted over this issue might have left such a bad taste in people's mouths that I wouldn't be surprised if some people who were otherwise keen on the project and had faith in it are just too sick of the thing to throw more money after it.
Between those two factors, I think there's very clear doubts as to whether a second Kickstarter would even succeed... leaving the original DM backers shit out of luck all over again.
Quote from: Warthur;623963Wooooah... really? I would strongly - strongly - urge Autarch to reconsider that.
Firstly, if you are contemplating starting a Kickstarter to (wholly or in part) fund the rewards from a previous Kickstarter, it's time to stop digging. That's just common sense.
Secondly, the Kickstarter for the maps and stuff - whether it's a standalone Kickstarter or a Kickstarter for some other project which they happen to include the maps in - will have two big, fat albatrosses around its neck. One of them will be that the people who were very excited about Dwimmermount weren't just excited because it was any old megadungeon, it was a megadungeon penned by a well-respected OSR blogger with a fair amount of e-fame - e-fame which almost certainly had something to do with the Kickstarter succeeding to the extent that it did in the first place, and I'm not convinced that they're going to be able to muster the same level of enthusiasm for products which aren't actually James-approved.
The second albatross is the "throwing good money after bad" factor - although the maps can be made without James' involvement, the trouble afflicting the current Kickstarter can't help but infect people's feelings about the new one. People might not be keen to get the maps when there's no guarantee that the finalised version of the Dwimmermount material will ever materialise. On top of that, the sheer amount of nastiness which has erupted over this issue might have left such a bad taste in people's mouths that I wouldn't be surprised if some people who were otherwise keen on the project and had faith in it are just too sick of the thing to throw more money after it.
Between those two factors, I think there's very clear doubts as to whether a second Kickstarter would even succeed... leaving the original DM backers shit out of luck all over again.
I disagree, but I think it's because you're missing data.
It's not a map of Dwimmermount.
It's a hex wilderness map, similar to the original OD&D wilderness map from the Outdoor Survival boardgame (Avalon Hill). It's true to the spirit of that old map, but not a replica of it. It's printed on vinyl. You write in features with wet-erase markers, and can erase them later and re-use the map as much as you want. The map itself is simply a general-application wipe-erase wilderness map. It's useful for lots of different old-school D&D games, not just Dwimmermount.
They will then post on their site some suggested locations for where you might want to write-in the Dwimmermount, and people can then discuss alternate locations where they plan on placing it, etc..
The map also already exists in prototype watercolor format, with Chris Hagerty as the artist. He held it up, drew on it, it looked neat, and it looked like a generic (and nicely done) vinyl wilderness map widely applicable to old school play that uses hex wilderness maps.
I would consider buying it from the Kickstarter, depending on the price, and I have no interest in Dwimmermount itself. I don't know how representative I am, but I do think the Kickstarter could be a success, and also have the side benefit of supplying part of the fulfillment of the prior Kickstarter.
He also pre-cleared this idea with Kickstarter, and they are on board with the idea provided he specifies the risks involved.
Here is a really bad screen-shot with a lot of glare, but hopefully enough to present the basic idea:
(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3739/wildernessmap.jpg)
YDIS, I checked it first, ofc. But it is not recent. Also, I run with scissors is not to be seen anywhere.
Product of which superiour culture? Western enlightened societies? Methinks you are closer to that source. The genius of Prussian enlighted intellectualism was an historical accident which the rest of continental Europe seems not to miss or ever tried to repeat.
Two murderous wars against Kant & reality and what was the result? Suicidal nihilism in exchange for aggressive nihilism. I'd rather not.
Quote from: Mistwell;623971I disagree, but I think it's because you're missing data.
It's not a map of Dwimmermount.
It's a hex wilderness map, similar to the original OD&D wilderness map from the Outdoor Survival boardgame. But, it's printed on vinyl. You write in features with wet-erase markers, and can erase them later and re-use the map as much as you want. They will then publish some suggested locations for where you might want to write-in the Dwimmermount, but the map itself is simply a general-application wipe-erase wilderness map. It's useful for lots of different old-school D&D games, not just Dwimmermount.
I get that, but the fact that this thing is now - thanks to this announcement - going to be associated in people's mind with a Kickstarter project which is turning toxic is going to severely hamper it. And they don't seem to have a plan B for how they're going to fulfill their commitment to the DM backers if this Kickstarter fails.
Like I said, I was surprised to hear that Kickstarter have given the thumbs-up to this, but then again they are friendly souls. I suspect sooner or later someone's going to take advantage of that friendliness and they're going to have to tighten up on this stuff to protect the site's reputation.
Quote from: Settembrini;623972YDIS, I checked it first, ofc. But it is not recent. Also, I run with scissors is not to be seen anywhere.
Product of which superiour culture? Western enlightened societies? Methinks you are closer to that source. The genius of Prussian enlighted intellectualism was an historical accident which the rest of continental Europe seems not to miss or ever tried to repeat.
Two murderous wars against Kant & reality and what was the result? Suicidal nihilism in exchange for aggressive nihilism. I'd rather not.
IRWS is all over the bottom of the current ydis thread's comments. His last post was this morning. The comments drift from topic to topic, unrelated to the post at hand.
Well at least you guys don't have to fight a war against high fructose corn syrup.
As America is still the best-functioning democracy, I have trust it will overcome the malicious influences of high fructose corn syrup one day.
Did it not overcome Super PAC crazyness and the Koch bros.? If one can overcome that conspiracy, the little maize-cartel is just a matter of time.
EDIT to ADD:
Now AOS you sent to a comment thread where the rage is one AND Gene Weigel is posting again!!!
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!
I see we agree on the everlasting gift that is Gene Wegal. He's a piece of work
For the record, I delivered my project on time save for the print edition, which will be late by all of a week.
Maybe the secret is knowing how much work a project will actually take.
Quote from: Gib;623981I see we agree on the everlasting gift that is Gene Wegal. He's a piece of work
I'm an unrepentant fan. The paradox of Gene Weigel acc. to me: he sees through ALL the bullshit in written D&D product and author's talking about them.
But at the same time seems to have zero clue on how internet discourses work.
Guy can jump 100 yards in one leap, but walking 10 feet often is too much. A "Percival" if you will-
I speak fluent absurd, and yet he and I have never been able to understand one another.
Quote from: grimshwiz;623837last talk with James Mal was on Nov 19, when he talked about the health problem in his family, but the indications were that they (James and the Autarch staff) would talk again at their next regular update - apparently didnt happen
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I told you this was a fucking scam.
"No it is not you big meanie troll!" You shouted at me.
This was nothing more than the Jim The Scam Retirement Plan. I have no sympathy for anyone.
But, go ahead, call me a troll.
I was fucking right.
IRWS
Quote from: Zachary The First;6239085 minutes of time to update backers on what's going on. That's what JMal would need to do to instill at least a hint of confidence in him.
Kudos to Tavis and Co. for keeping the communication going as much as they can.
You ask too much, it would take time away from epic summaries of Ares magazine.
IRWS
Quote from: Settembrini;623972YDIS, I checked it first, ofc. But it is not recent. Also, I run with scissors is not to be seen anywhere.
Product of which superiour culture? Western enlightened societies? Methinks you are closer to that source. The genius of Prussian enlighted intellectualism was an historical accident which the rest of continental Europe seems not to miss or ever tried to repeat.
Two murderous wars against Kant & reality and what was the result? Suicidal nihilism in exchange for aggressive nihilism. I'd rather not.
I'm still here buddy. I took a break.
Mind you I did not steal $50,000.
Dwimmerdust (http://dwimmerdust.tumblr.com) is still kicking, and I have turn my attention to others. Jim the Scam is still being talked about.
IRWS
You can be right and still be a troll. Those are not mutually exclusive.
If you hate gamers, why are you posting on an RPG site?
Quote from: JRT;624003If you hate gamers, why are you posting on an RPG site?
You wont get me with your trick question.
Quote from: I run with scissors;623998HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I told you this was a fucking scam.
"No it is not you big meanie troll!" You shouted at me.
This was nothing more than the Jim The Scam Retirement Plan. I have no sympathy for anyone.
But, go ahead, call me a troll.
I was fucking right.
IRWS
Yep, James really fucked up big time.
It's worse than I thought.
Quote from: Zachary The First;6239085 minutes of time to update backers on what's going on. That's what JMal would need to do to instill at least a hint of confidence in him.
Still, if it's any consolation, the dirty 50k is probably gnawing away at his soul every minute of the day.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;624017Still, if it's any consolation, the dirty 50k is probably gnawing away at his soul every minute of the day.
If he's a worshiping Catholic as he professed before, it should be.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;624017Still, if it's any consolation, the dirty 50k is probably gnawing away at his soul every minute of the day.
Nah. I mean, I don't the guy to suffer. I just want it fixed--as much as it can be at this point.
And yeah, it's worse than we all thought, I think.
Quote from: Benoist;624020If he's a worshiping Catholic as he professed before, it should be.
Bilking the masses out of their money, they might give him Mahony's job.
Not taking a shot at Catholics, I was confirmed by Mahony, and I'm less then pleased with his job performance.
Quote from: CRKrueger;624024Bilking the masses out of their money, they might give him Mahony's job.
Not taking a shot at Catholics, I was confirmed by Mahony, and I'm less then pleased with his job performance.
All men of the Church are just men.
I don't see any intent to scam here. All I see is a fuck-up, that spiraled out of control, and led a guy to paralyzing procrastination and depression and cutting himself off from the world.
0h, and Runs With Scissors remains a troll, and an asshole, and a coward.
So Jmal takes the money, delivers nothing, weasels around trying to get sympathy but RWS is the bigger asshole?
Quote from: Mistwell;623962I gotta say, having watched that video, Autarch is bending over backwards to do everything possible to give people as much as they legally can.
It's how people react to adversity that tends to be the true test of their character, and I'd say this crises has shown that Tavis is on the up and up, and worth trusting. I'd give him my money in a future Kickstarter, if I wanted the product or service it was about.
I'm not a fan of
ACK! and I think the hype for
Dwimmermount was ridiculously over-the-top, but credit where credit's due: the Autarch guys are stand-up as they can be under the circumstances.
Quote from: zarathustra;624035So Jmal takes the money, delivers nothing, weasels around trying to get sympathy but RWS is the bigger asshole?
I have not seen any evidence of him weaseling around for sympathy.
I have seen RWS attention whoring though. And being a dick while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.
Quote from: zarathustra;624035So Jmal takes the money, delivers nothing, weasels around trying to get sympathy but RWS is the bigger asshole?
A lot of people don't like bullies, especially anonymous ones. And especially since I imagine a lot of RPGers used to be the target of bullies
And unless you wanted physical rewards, I think he more or less delivered. The Dwimmermount manuscript is done, with maps.
Sure, it's a doc, and there's no art, but it's perfectly playable. He delivered something.
Is it annoying that I didn't get my $40 hardcover (and probably never will?) Sure. But for that same $40, I got a really half-assed 90 page hardcover from the Starships & Spacemen KS. It's not even a complete game, it's like a framework of a game. I couldn't even get a PDF of it because he didn't mention he used RPGNow (which doesn't work with my ISP)
Quote from: zarathustra;624035So Jmal takes the money, delivers nothing, weasels around trying to get sympathy but RWS is the bigger asshole?
It confuses me as well. I mean RWS is a little over the top at times, but I mean that is nothing compared to someone who can't take 5 minutes out of his day to hope on G+ or Grognardia or email Tavis to say "hey my dad is dying. Gonna be away for a while."
There is literally NO excuse in this day and age where we are all connected via cell phones, tablet, computers, free WiFi all around us that he could not update someone while at Starbucks waiting in line. It would take less time than it took to post this to update his backers and partners.
But no. James will sit quiet, as I am sure he has blown through the 50k or most of it and doesn't want to face reality. I am not a backer of this, but it pisses me off that some asshole has taken peoples hard earned money and fucked off. I know what it is like to have a parent die (my father, grandma and aunt all passed away within a month of each other) and my mother is going through radiation now. It does suck. Life goes on. Take time out of your day to own up to people and at the very least tell people that you fucked up.
What pisses me off more about this whole situation is that people are defending James. He just took 50k from people and has done nothing and people defend that? Mind blowing.
Quote from: zarathustra;624035So Jmal takes the money, delivers nothing, weasels around trying to get sympathy but RWS is the bigger asshole?
Someone else's dickish behavior doesn't excuse your own.
Quote from: grimshwiz;624048It confuses me as well. I mean RWS is a little over the top at times, but I mean that is nothing compared to someone who can't take 5 minutes out of his day to hope on G+ or Grognardia or email Tavis to say "hey my dad is dying. Gonna be away for a while."
There is literally NO excuse in this day and age where we are all connected via cell phones, tablet, computers, free WiFi all around us that he could not update someone while at Starbucks waiting in line. It would take less time than it took to post this to update his backers and partners.
But no. James will sit quiet, as I am sure he has blown through the 50k or most of it and doesn't want to face reality. I am not a backer of this, but it pisses me off that some asshole has taken peoples hard earned money and fucked off. I know what it is like to have a parent die (my father, grandma and aunt all passed away within a month of each other) and my mother is going through radiation now. It does suck. Life goes on. Take time out of your day to own up to people and at the very least tell people that you fucked up.
What pisses me off more about this whole situation is that people are defending James. He just took 50k from people and has done nothing and people defend that? Mind blowing.
This.
RWS may be a little over the top but he is one of the few willing to raise concerns publicly and call a spade a spade instead of glad handing. I've lost loved ones & didn't disappear up my own ass because of it. I once lost my house and all possessions to a fire, still made it to work two days later.
And to all the noble heroes of the internet tittutting about internet anonymity *eye roll*
Quote from: Benoist;624020If he's a worshiping Catholic as he professed before, it should be.
Or he goes o confession and be done with the bad feelings.
re: bullies
High school crap again? Must have been a terrible time for some of you...
Me, I prefer truth to lies. JMal lied, and IRWS called out all those who were/are in denial about that.
See, Aos was right, I have a cultural arrogant streak: the word bully has no translation into most languages. think about that and reform your current public school system. Too many seem to get traumatization from it...
...or grow fucking up and leave your high school shit behind. ADD: There are enough who manage that.
Guys, remember when Tavis was weaseling to admit Jmal used the money for living expenses? What happened to that? Oh right, the funds are gone and thus are in the upper right corner of IP-protected vapor.
I can't see how RWS is the bad guy here. He called it early and correctly.
Not taking 5 minutes to own up to your shit is utterly reprehensible by JMAL. I don't think he set out to scam, he just got in way over his head and his cowardice has led to a retreat from all sense of responsibility.
Quote from: JeremyR;624046Is it annoying that I didn't get my $40 hardcover (and probably never will?) Sure. But for that same $40, I got a really half-assed 90 page hardcover from the Starships & Spacemen KS. It's not even a complete game, it's like a framework of a game. I couldn't even get a PDF of it because he didn't mention he used RPGNow (which doesn't work with my ISP)
Woah, what's up with that?
Quote from: Settembrini;624065Guys, remember when Tavis was weaseling to admit Jmal used the money for living expenses? What happened to that? Oh right, the funds are gone and thus are in the upper right corner of IP-protected vapor.
I'm confused on that point. I thought the $50K was to get the material laid out and to commission art and get the hardcovers printed? That's what the IP+Money quadrant of the diagram seemed to imply.
Quote from: Fiasco;624069I can't see how RWS is the bad guy here. He called it early and correctly.
Not taking 5 minutes to own up to your shit is utterly reprehensible by JMAL. I don't think he set out to scam, he just got in way over his head and his cowardice has led to a retreat from all sense of responsibility.
You don't know what's going on with him. He mentioned his father was sick awhile back. There's a report from a friend of a friend that his father is near death. I prefer to reserve judgement and not speculate. Once he reappears and offers an explanation then I can judge. (and if that takes too long, get my money back.)
His explanation will either be justified, borderline (in which case I usually give the benefit of the doubt) or will ruin his reputation. I look forward to his statements concerning his lack of communication. I may end up at your conclusions.
And now: let me pimp my attempt to OD&D-up level 1 of a megadungeon draft: ShamWOW'ing a Megadungeon (http://rpggeek.com/geeklist/152775/shamwowing-a-famous-megadungeon-before-its-actuall)
Yes, but Jamal has the money and is not releasing it to do stuff for that quadrant, right?
Which reason could there be for that?
Honestly, if I ever would find myself arse over tit in a project I might never finish, the FIRST thing I would do is to release the funds that were supposed to go to Autarch ANYWAY. Unless ofc I did not have the money anymore...
Lazyness or a bona fide depression are not a crime. Taking $50k is! Especially if you think more about it:
Case A)
The 50k were supposed to pay for printing and layout and so forth to begin with.
Jamal keeping the funds is indication of embezzlement, as it suggests he spent the money otherwise. If it is still there it would be retarded of him not to hand it back so that stuff in the $/IP quadrant can be done with the stuff already written.
Case B)
The 50k were for Jamals living expenses while writing the thing to begin with.
He is NOT working on the project. So he must have other work to support his family, as he can't pay himself a salary for work not being done, right?
Remember the weaseling by Travis when I asked whether Jamal has a day job?
Let's assume he DOES NOT have a job:
He got $50 000 as an advance on a book. Then he stops working on it, because of XYZ. Then what is he supposed to feed his kids from? Right, the advance. But then this is a big problem, as after he resumes work, he will have no money to support his family from. So he needs to search for work, probably move and then work for real money. You can calculate the chances of him actually finnishing the project, when time is short and it is "just" fullfillment of money that has long gone...
short version: he is already accumulating debt. In fact, NOT working on the project ever again would be the financially most sensible thing to do; akin to a debt pardon. If he stays unemployed to finish the project, he will accumulate more debt, but against a real bank. Wonder how they will interpret things...
Is there a third case were everything can come out fine? I am not seeing it.
Quote from: Settembrini;624095...
short version: he is already accumulating debt. In fact, NOT working on the project ever again would be the financially most sensible thing to do; akin to a debt pardon. If he stays unemployed to finish the project, he will accumulate more debt, but against a real bank. Wonder how they will interpret things...
Is there a third case were everything can come out fine? I am not seeing it.
Most people in the industry have day jobs. Lots of writers have day jobs. Working on a project like this doesn't require he stay unemployed in order to have the time (I used to write two to four hours every night when I got home from work). I don't know what is going on in this particular case, but this is the kind of work people routinely do while having a full time job.
Quote from: JRT;624003You can be right and still be a troll. Those are not mutually exclusive.
If you hate gamers, why are you posting on an RPG site?
Whatever.
I do not hate gamers. I do not hate. Hate is a strong word and serves no purpose.
I dislike hypocrisy, theft, and those who live to post about games, and not play games.
In addition, the last time I looked, I did not do a Kickstarter and not fulfill my promises. Nor have I taken $50,000 and gone into hiding.
Yeah, but hate me. Call me a troll. If that makes you feel better, more power to you.
IRWS
Quote from: Mistwell;624031I don't see any intent to scam here. All I see is a fuck-up, that spiraled out of control, and led a guy to paralyzing procrastination and depression and cutting himself off from the world.
0h, and Runs With Scissors remains a troll, and an asshole, and a coward.
You are still beating that same drum aren't you?
You are still a petty annoying ass who thinks he is above everyone else.
See, I can stoop to you oh so egalitarian level.
IRWS
Quote from: JeremyR;624046A lot of people don't like bullies, especially anonymous ones. And especially since I imagine a lot of RPGers used to be the target of bullies
And unless you wanted physical rewards, I think he more or less delivered. The Dwimmermount manuscript is done, with maps.
Sure, it's a doc, and there's no art, but it's perfectly playable. He delivered something.
If you think paying $40 for a collection of half assed written is fulfilling his promises, then I do not know what to think.
This is Stockholm Gamer Syndrom in it's finest. Someone has wronged you and taken your money. But it is ok becasue Jim the Scam is a nice guy or might be depressed, or something, and did deliver his first draft as a PDF.
What about the rest of awards that Tavis and company owes? Oh, that's right, Jim the Scam has all the money. Its' ok though, becayse Tavis and Company are one of us.
Bullshit.
This was a scam from the start. They did not have the balls to call it what it was: The Jim the Scam Retirement Fund. It is so much easier to become an anonymous gamer again (http://dwimmerdust.tumblr.com/post/40693985266/jim-the-scam-goes-and-hides) if you take $50,000 with you.
IRWS
Quote from: grimshwiz;624048It confuses me as well. I mean RWS is a little over the top at times, but I mean that is nothing compared to someone who can't take 5 minutes out of his day to hope on G+ or Grognardia or email Tavis to say "hey my dad is dying. Gonna be away for a while."
I truly feel that the reason I am being attacked is because the truth hurts and no one likes being told they have been screwed.
QuoteThere is literally NO excuse in this day and age where we are all connected via cell phones, tablet, computers, free WiFi all around us that he could not update someone while at Starbucks waiting in line. It would take less time than it took to post this to update his backers and partners.
But Jim the Scam has too much to deal with. How dare you attack him when he is dealing with life.
QuoteBut no. James will sit quiet, as I am sure he has blown through the 50k or most of it and doesn't want to face reality. I am not a backer of this, but it pisses me off that some asshole has taken peoples hard earned money and fucked off. I know what it is like to have a parent die (my father, grandma and aunt all passed away within a month of each other) and my mother is going through radiation now. It does suck. Life goes on. Take time out of your day to own up to people and at the very least tell people that you fucked up.
But you got a PDF of the first draft, that should be good enough for you. Just be sure to back Tavis & Company's next Kickstarter so they can get you the other awards they promised you.
QuoteWhat pisses me off more about this whole situation is that people are defending James. He just took 50k from people and has done nothing and people defend that? Mind blowing.
Gamer Stockholm Syndrome.
IRWS
Quote from: Novastar;624049Someone else's dickish behavior doesn't excuse your own.
If you think stealing $50,000 and screwing a business partner is the same as me being harsh pointing out the truth is the same. I weep for you.
IRWS
Quote from: zarathustra;624063This.
RWS may be a little over the top but he is one of the few willing to raise concerns publicly and call a spade a spade instead of glad handing. I've lost loved ones & didn't disappear up my own ass because of it. I once lost my house and all possessions to a fire, still made it to work two days later.
And to all the noble heroes of the internet tittutting about internet anonymity *eye roll*
Yeah, I mean it is not like the owner of this site does not hide behind a pseudonym or anything else like that...
IRWS
Quote from: Warthur;624091Woah, what's up with that?
Yup, it was even mentioned in this very thread back in September. Here's the link: http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=585215&postcount=765
Mind you know where within all the spin Tavis did was this ever mentioned until it was pulled out of him.
IRWS
Quote from: Settembrini;624095Yes, but Jamal has the money and is not releasing it to do stuff for that quadrant, right?
Which reason could there be for that?
It was to fund his move to be a anonymous gamer.
QuoteThe 50k were for Jamals living expenses while writing the thing to begin with.
He is NOT working on the project. So he must have other work to support his family, as he can't pay himself a salary for work not being done, right?
Remember the weaseling by Travis when I asked whether Jamal has a day job?
Let's assume he DOES NOT have a job:
He is a stay at home father. Nothing wrong with that, but unless he home schools his kids, he has more than enough time to fulfill his obligations while they are at school.
IRWS
Quote from: JeremyR;624046But for that same $40, I got a really half-assed 90 page hardcover from the Starships & Spacemen KS. It's not even a complete game, it's like a framework of a game. I couldn't even get a PDF of it because he didn't mention he used RPGNow (which doesn't work with my ISP)
Hi Jeremy, I've seen you voice complaints about the price on various forum and blog posts (hard cover + PDF + shipping inclusive = $40 seems reasonable to me, but I'll keep your complaints in mind for the future). You had feedback about the draft of S&S before the Indiegogo was finished, which I did take seriously and resulted in significant changes in the final draft, but this is the first time you have mentioned you didn't think it was a complete game. If you have any specific suggestions for material for the game please let me know, it could be something I include in a supplement (this thread is probably not the place, either a new thread or email as I may not check back here for a while).
However, I didn't know you never got the PDF. As far as I can tell you have never sent me an email. I sent you an email a few minutes ago with the PDF attached, please send me an email to let me know if you got it ok. It's just chance that I happened to see your post buried in a 100+ discussion about Dwimmermount. I can't possibly see all forums and blogs where you post complaints, so in the future any customer service issues would be more efficiently directed at my email address (second best would be my forums, where I may not see your post right away).
I think people looking at the criticism are missing a few things.
The whole "Stockholm Gamer Syndrome" kind of misses the point. Most people paying for any Kickstarter are legitimate fans of the guy. As such, they do not wish to suddenly "ask for money back". In part, most people who are intelligent enough to pledge to a kickstarter know the risks, and are willing to accept numerous delays. As such, it's really up to the backers to decide when enough's enough, not the third parties who don't have a stake in this. Quite frankly, that's rather insulting to the people who backed him. Let the majority of them decide when enough's enough.
I am not saying James is above criticism here. He really should take the time to address the problem on his blog, I have a lot of trouble understanding why he is not. And the total sum of the money is a huge deal that is troubling.
I do not think he ever did Dwimmermount as a "scam", which is malicious intent to the start. That's rather libelous.
I think the main thing that's troubling is that much of the ado seems to be because James is a big target. There's a lot of people IMO who have a bone to pick with James--either because he's got more blog traffic than others, because they dislike his opinions, or even jealousy. I think that has lead to an unusual harshness in the criticism, and when people start doing things like taking private posts on G+ publicly, or trying to dig up stuff he wrote almost a decade ago and psychoanalyze him based on an old LiveJournal post--it's rather troubling. It's akin to pig-piling on.
QuoteYeah, but hate me. Call me a troll. If that makes you feel better, more power to you.
I do not hate you. But I think your level of response is disproportionate to the situation, and I think you are guilty of making a mountain out of a molehill. James will already have to deal with a lot of crap, I think that's going to be enough punishment without bleating the horn each day, or trying to completely ruin him. There's a difference between Justice and Vengeance.
Quote from: I run with scissors;624107Yup, it was even mentioned in this very thread back in September. Here's the link: http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=585215&postcount=765
Mind you know where within all the spin Tavis did was this ever mentioned until it was pulled out of him.
Tavis really just needs to do a pie chart explaining how the money for DM was budgeted. It's the least you can do and most respectable Kickstarters (like Double Fine) provide the backers with exactly that.
If the $50K which went to James was solely to support his time, then putting doing the layout and printing the books in the IP/$ quadrant is a nonsense because James doesn't have to do any of that. If the $50K was meant to pay for layout and printing costs, then James using it to live on was pretty disgusting and Tavis really shouldn't be covering for him like this. If, as I suspect is actually the case, the $50K is a mix of layout costs/print costs on the one hand and James' time on the other hand, it's high time to clarify that and specify how the costs break down.
Quote from: Warthur;624112If the $50K which went to James was solely to support his time, then putting doing the layout and printing the books in the IP/$ quadrant is a nonsense because James doesn't have to do any of that. If the $50K was meant to pay for layout and printing costs, then James using it to live on was pretty disgusting and Tavis really shouldn't be covering for him like this. If, as I suspect is actually the case, the $50K is a mix of layout costs/print costs on the one hand and James' time on the other hand, it's high time to clarify that and specify how the costs break down.
As far as I can tell, the money wasn't divided up at all: it was all sent to James's bank account without any agreed-upon scheme of how much would go to printing, etc. It seems like it was left for James to manage on his own, which is doubly disturbing since his "disappearance."
Quote from: JRT;624111Quite frankly, that's rather insulting to the people who backed him. Let the majority of them decide when enough's enough.
"You're being taken for a ride and your goodwill is being abused" isn't an insult, it's a warning. We can argue as to whether or not the warning is justified, but if someone perceives that there's a serious problem there and people might be being taken for a ride, don't they have a responsibility to speak up about it?
QuoteI am not saying James is above criticism here. He really should take the time to address the problem on his blog, I have a lot of trouble understanding why he is not. And the total sum of the money is a huge deal that is troubling.
Yes, both of these things are definitely concerning. The lack of communication in particular, since it leaves a space open for IRWS and people like him to yell "He's done a runner! You've been fooled! For all you know his father's 'illness' was made up - after all, you only have friend-of-a-friend confirmation that his dad's even sick!"
QuoteI do not think he ever did Dwimmermount as a "scam", which is malicious intent to the start. That's rather libelous.
True, though arguably if you start out with good intent and then decide partway through "I'm not going to deal with this, I'm just going to hide" then a) it's breach of contract and b) it kind of has the same impact on the people left holding the can in the end. The whole Jim the Scam thing is kind of juvenile and doesn't do the critics much credit.
Quote from: misterguignol;624113As far as I can tell, the money wasn't divided up at all: it was all sent to James's bank account without any agreed-upon scheme of how much would go to printing, etc. It seems like it was left for James to manage on his own, which is doubly disturbing since his "disappearance."
And this, folks, is why you treat business like
business, even if you're doing it with friends. James should never have touched the money without providing a clear budget. This is
especially the case since it's Kickstarter money, and there's a history of people fucking up Kickstarters because they didn't budget properly (and, in particular, because they didn't factor in the tax implications of having all that cash).
Quote from: JRT;624111or trying to dig up stuff he wrote almost a decade ago and psychoanalyze him based on an old LiveJournal post--it's rather troubling.
In practice, psychoanalyzing someone/something tells more about the "psychoanalyst", than it does about the particular person/thing being psychoanalyzed.
Quote from: I run with scissors;624105If you think stealing $50,000 and screwing a business partner is the same as me being harsh pointing out the truth is the same. I weep for you.
IRWS
I never said I didn't find James M's behavior repugnant and unprofessional.
I still think it's tacky to dance on someone's grave.
I also don't think either of you compare to 3rd-world dictators who ruthlessly kill their opposition.
i.e. my disdain has levels; it does not run at "You guys are Hitler!" 24/7, for each and every thing.
@Sett, why should I give a fuck whether or not a word or a concept from my language translates in to yours? You guys have shit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude). A word we borrow when we feel we need it. Feel free to borrow bully. It might be useful in a few of your history texts. It certainly is in ours.
Anyway you're right about one thing, calling Irws a bully is fucking silly. He isn't the one who made off with all the lunch money, now is he?
What I am doing is going to help Tavis and Autarch salvage some of what owed by drawing some maps they can use for their second kickstarter to get the dry erase maps and tracker out.
The outdoor map is based off of the outdoor survival map and the Muntberg map was based on Castle Rhuddlan and my own original creation. So both of those can be turned into independent products that are useful outside of Dwimmermount. And my fee for is $45.
I am sure there will be criticism of the use of the Outdoor Survival Map. But it not a simple case of copying the original board game art. You can't use the map I created to play Outdoor Survival. Yes it duplicates the overall geography but the symbols, the shading, and the rest of it are new pieces of art created by myself. Enough differences exist that I am comfortable in releasing it.
In the end the test will be not whether people complain or approve but whether kickstarter funds. I don't if it will. But rather than being part of the problem, I decided to contribute in a small way to be part of the solution to help Tavis and the rest of Autarch.
As for James it is stating the obvious that he thoroughly trashed his reputation in the gaming industry and hobby. Many of us, myself included, don't go on a rant because there no point to it other than a need to gossip.
For Tavis and Autarch I feel differently. Tavis is perfectly capable of defending himself but what I will say is that I will help them with what I can. No differently then the help I given other OSR publishers and bloggers.
No joke, Rob, You are a stand up guy with integrity to spare.
Quote from: Novastar;624126i.e. my disdain has levels; it does not run at "You guys are Hitler!" 24/7, for each and every thing.
I'm pretty positive both IRWS and James are literally Hitler (or at least what remains of him). Why he would turn to trolling Kickstarter under multiple accounts of all things after distinguishing himself as the world's favourite monster in World War Two is hard to guess, but then most of us aren't brains who have been sitting in jars for the better part of 68 years. And I don't mean this as a slight against those of us who are.
Quote from: Melan;624132I'm pretty positive both IRWS and James are literally Hitler (or at least what remains of him). Why he would turn to trolling Kickstarter under multiple accounts of all things after distinguishing himself as the world's favourite monster in World War Two is hard to guess, but then most of us aren't brains who have been sitting in jars for the better part of 68 years. And I don't mean this as a slight against those of us who are.
He took over for his pal Satan when the old feller got out of RPGs and went into reality TV.
Quote from: I run with scissors;624102This was a scam from the start. They did not have the balls to call it what it was: The Jim the Scam Retirement Fund.
I have a hard time believing that Autarch and Maliszewski set out, from square one, to scam people. Or, were just gathering funds for a "retirement fund". They made actual efforts to produce the end product: James (apparently) did compile and release his 100k word document to backers, and I'm sure it took quite a bit of work considering his loosey-goosey approach to dungeon building. Autarch have made extra efforts to remain as transparent as they can about the situation.
I think the real problem is overpromising-and-underdelivering, running a business project like abject amateurs, and wilting-under-pressure. The Dwimmermount kickstarter will probably reach completion at some point, but the real fallout for Maliszewski will be, as
estar states: "thoroughly trash[ing] his reputation in the gaming industry and hobby".
I think that James' Google+ comments about quitting blogging, and returning to being a private gamer, have more to do with wilting under pressure and failing to be a professional publisher than evidence of a secret plan to take the money and run. He's clearly going to have a hell of a hard time publishing any further material through Grognardia Games in the future after this debacle. So, a fade-to-privacy will be an unintended - and probably inevitable - result than something premeditated.
Yeah, fuck up- yes. Scam- no. No one retirees on 50k in the first world. This is probably why a lot of people get angry with you. You are dealing with people who will argue over just about any fucking detail you can imagine. Hyperbole is a shit way to express yourself with this crowd if you want to be understood. You need to speak to your audience in a language they can understand. No doubt, evil and stupidity are often the same if you judge only by results, but if you really want to communicate you have to go deeper than that.
However, trolling is cool and appropriate, imo, too.
For this to be a "scam" James M should have had the intent to take the money and not finish the job to go into hiding and disappear in the first place. I don't think there's any strong evidence of that. If there is, show it to me. Otherwise, it's just noise.
There is plenty of evidence he did not know what he was getting into, and that he has been failing to take charge of his own responsibilities in regards to this project for quite some time, however.
And yes, there is definitely something akin to a "Gamer Stockholm Syndrome" going on for some people trying to defend Jmal's failings to whatever end, no matter how stretching to anyone's suspension of disbelief this may ultimately come off.
I wish all the luck in the world to Autarch, Rob and everyone involved who's trying to get something out to the backers of the kickstarter. I think this, in conjunction with the ongoing communication that's been going on to set things straight with the people who invested money on this venture, speaks louder of their character as publishers, freelancers and people, really, than anything else ever could.
Quote from: estar;624128In the end the test will be not whether people complain or approve but whether kickstarter funds. I don't if it will. But rather than being part of the problem, I decided to contribute in a small way to be part of the solution to help Tavis and the rest of Autarch.
QFT.
Quote from: estar;624128What I am doing is going to help Tavis and Autarch salvage some of what owed by drawing some maps they can use
You, sir, are what all the hip young kids are calling a stand-up guy.
Quote from: I run with scissors;624104I truly feel that the reason I am being attacked is because the truth hurts and no one likes being told they have been screwed.
I have no stake in this. In fact, you were more of a backer than I am. I just think you're an asshole. I don't think I am better than everyone, just you.
He's not anonymous. I'm not anonymous. But you, you're anonymous. You claim to hate hypocrisy. Cool. So, end your anonymity.
You won't. Because you're also a coward. And a hypocrite.
Quote from: Benoist;624144For this to be a "scam" James M should have had the intent to take the money and not finish the job to go into hiding and disappear in the first place. I don't think there's any strong evidence of that. If there is, show it to me. Otherwise, it's just noise.
There is plenty of evidence he did not know what he was getting into, and that he has been failing to take charge of his own responsibilities in regards to this project for quite some time, however.
And yes, there is definitely something akin to a "Gamer Stockholm Syndrome" going on for some people trying to defend Jmal's failings to whatever end, no matter how stretching to anyone's suspension of disbelief this may ultimately come off.
I wish all the luck in the world to Autarch, Rob and everyone involved who's trying to get something out to the backers of the kickstarter. I think this, in conjunction with the ongoing communication that's been going on to set things straight with the people who invested money on this venture, speaks louder of their character as publishers, freelancers and people, really, than anything else ever could.
What he said.
Hiding behind the anonymity argument? Is that all you have? That is just about the lamest form of invalidation available to you. There are a good many reasons people remain anonymous on line. Something of which everyone is aware. Are you going after the pundit in every thread he appears in, accusing him of cowardice? Nope. Get to it. Stomp out this plague of anonymity. We're counting on you!
Quote from: zarathustra;624035So Jmal takes the money, delivers nothing, weasels around trying to get sympathy but RWS is the bigger asshole?
Yes, most definitely.
Whatever Jmal has done or doesnt do, he's not the one hanging out on RPG forums acting like an ass.
I love the smell of apologists in the morning.
Quote from: Gib;624224Hiding behind the anonymity argument? Is that all you have? That is just about the lamest form of invalidation available to you.
agreed. isn't it more than enough to say that i run with scissors is being a totally uncharitable prick by offering the worst possible interpretation of facts in evidence and offering completely unverified supposition as if it were objective truth? posting anonymously is the least of his sins. i'm no fan of jmal. i certainly didn't back his kickstarter. but when there are plenty of actual, real, reasons to pound on the dude, why invent more? complete prickishness. that's why.
As a backer - I'm disappointed. More in the product than in the process, to be honest, but I'm mostly just disappointed. I wouldn't be shocked if I never get the hardcover Dwimmermount. I think re-Kickstartering it to get some backer awards out is ridiculous and I won't have any part of it.
As part of the OSR - I'm sort of relieved. James had a stature in the OSR, and his blog was a "central" point in it to such a degree, and in retrospect it wasn't really merited at all. Now he's blown that credibility and all the good will that go along with it. I think it's better for the old school community in the long run not to have a Grognardia as some sort of gatekeeper or "blog of record" or whatever it was that James's blog was acting as.
Quote from: ICFTI;624232agreed. isn't it more than enough to say that i run with scissors is being a totally uncharitable prick by offering the worst possible interpretation of facts in evidence and offering completely unverified supposition as if it were objective truth? posting anonymously is the least of his sins. i'm no fan of jmal. i certainly didn't back his kickstarter. but when there are plenty of actual, real, reasons to pound on the dude, why invent more? complete prickishness. that's why.
That seems a fair assessment.
Your move.
Quote from: Gib;624224Hiding behind the anonymity argument? Is that all you have? That is just about the lamest form of invalidation available to you. There are a good many reasons people remain anonymous on line. Something of which everyone is aware. Are you going after the pundit in every thread he appears in, accusing him of cowardice? Nope. Get to it. Stomp out this plague of anonymity. We're counting on you!
He's not going after a known person on a personal level, accusing them of intentionally scamming people to steal from them. Nor is he directly bashing me. Besides, I know Pundit's real name. He hasn't really tried that hard to keep it a big secret.
Plus, your characterization of my bash on IRWS is false. Anonymity is only the most recent of my bashes, and far from the sum total of the theme of my bashes of him. My theme is he's an asshole. I've said a lot to support that theme. Anonymity is merely another means of demonstrating it. I've covered many other reasons, as have others. The bottom line is IRWS is an asshole. You can put many adjectives in front of the word asshole, and anonymous is one, but far from the only accurate one.
Lame.
IRWS also wears white socks with black shoes. WHAT AN ASSHOLE.
Quote from: VectorSigma;624248IRWS also wears white socks with black shoes. WHAT AN ASSHOLE.
Damn his penguin envy.
The anonymity argument has a couple of differences.
Some people here use their real names--I use my initials, Benoist's handle is part of his real name, others use a pseudonym but identify themselves. But even if the person only uses a handle, usually they are consistent with their handle, and usually keep that handle throughout the Internet. Usually, they just prefer
IRWS was identified by Travis as not identifying which backer he was, but also using one of the anonymous services so he can't be traced back via IP, for instance, and he's complained about James using Google+ because that service forces one to use a real, traceable, identity. That's kind of a sign that he doesn't want to be identified--perhaps he's a more well known name using a sock-puppet account to engage, likely (based on his criticisms) because he has a grudge against James. I would also think identifying himself would make his "consumer advocate" complaint a lot more credible. And if he's more into the parody/satire thing--well, heck, Groucho Marx, Editorial Cartoonists, writers for Cracked and National Lampoon all use their names, and actually want to get their names out there.
QuoteAs part of the OSR - I'm sort of relieved. James had a stature in the OSR, and his blog was a "central" point in it to such a degree, and in retrospect it wasn't really merited at all.
I always saw it as primarily an opinion column. He just wrote what most people thought was good stuff and got a fan following. I don't believe the OSR should be a war over "who did what", etc. I have to wonder if a lot of the criticism is not because of the actual offense, but rather because there's a lot of people who don't particularly like James and want to see him fall, or that some people are jealous of his fame. That's kind of why I dread seeing a witch hunt on this, especially since most of the people commenting are not backers or the offended parties.
Don't get me wrong, the criticism is deserved, but I suspect a lot more attention is on this because of his fame.
Quote from: VectorSigma;624248IRWS also wears white socks with black shoes. WHAT AN ASSHOLE.
I heard that he shot a man in Reno...
...JUST TO WATCH HIM DIE.
Quote from: JRT;624259I have to wonder if a lot of the criticism is not because of the actual offense, but rather because there's a lot of people who don't particularly like James and want to see him fall, or that some people are jealous of his fame.
Schadenfreude is a very common human trait.
(I don't fault anybody for engaging in it).
Quote from: VectorSigma;624248IRWS also wears white socks with black shoes. WHAT AN ASSHOLE.
That would also make him an asshole, yes. And yeah, I bet he does. :)
Quote from: JRT;624259I have to wonder if a lot of the criticism is not because of the actual offense, but rather because there's a lot of people who don't particularly like James and want to see him fall, or that some people are jealous of his fame.
Oh, please.
I think the guy's wrong about a number of things he writes about, but why on gawd's fucking green earth would I wish him ill? That's really stupid.
Quote from: misterguignol;624226I love the smell of apologists in the morning.
Smells like sour grapes.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;624291Smells like sour grapes.
They make the best whine.
Quote from: jeff37923;624294They make the best whine.
L0L...
Seriously. Almost woke the baby.
Quote from: jeff37923;624294They make the best whine.
Toosh.
A broken contract is a broken contract is a broken contract.
I do categorize the Grand Douche as a fraud and scamsster, but mostly on the grounds of talking about D&D to begin with.
It is a certain kind of relief that all those who trusted him got busted. Because if they had some bullshit sensors, they would have known four years ago jamal is of that kind of writer as he now shows again.
Weren't there signs all over? The abandoned pbpost game? The abandoned rogue games games and projects?
But more importantly: the SUPER LAME musings about Dwimmermount to begin with! Everyone who paid for it got what he deserved.
Quote from: Settembrini;624395Everyone who paid for it got what he deserved.
Oy, Sett. It's because you're my friend that I feel compelled to step into this thread. The people who paid for the game didn't
literally get what they deserved.
As for the rest, though, while I feel kinda sorry for James as a human being, I really do wonder what evidence there was prior to the Kickstarter that he was going to be able to produce something worth backing. I know he had some RPG writing under his belt, but did he ever run an excellent session or publish/share an excellent adventure?
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;624403Oy, Sett. It's because you're my friend that I feel compelled to step into this thread. The people who paid for the game didn't literally get what they deserved.
As for the rest, though, while I feel kinda sorry for James as a human being, I really do wonder what evidence there was prior to the Kickstarter that he was going to be able to produce something worth backing. I know he had some RPG writing under his belt, but did he ever run an excellent session or publish/share an excellent adventure?
I have not played it, but have heard positive things about the Cursed Chateau, and its reviews on drivethru rpg look pretty decent. I think there are some devoted fans of his Thousand Suns game.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;624410I have not played it, but have heard positive things about the Cursed Chateau, and its reviews on drivethru rpg look pretty decent. I think there are some devoted fans of his Thousand Suns game.
Uh ... No.
Here's a (short) review of his proto-chateau: http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=665 I can't speak to Thousand Suns. There are almost no good reviews of anything out there. Everyone is afraid of hurting someones feelings.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;624414Uh ... No.
Here's a (short) review of his proto-chateau: http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=665 I can't speak to Thousand Suns. There are almost no good reviews of anything out there. Everyone is afraid of hurting someones feelings.
I don't know the history of the product, and its certainly possible a proto-version of the chateau wasn't well received. But just going by the Drivethrough reviews, looks like it got a positive response in its final form. I don't really know much about Jame's stuff, except what I have indirectly seen by reading Colonial Gothic (but I don't think he was actively involved in that line, though I could be wrong). Not saying he is a good or bad designer. Just saying the reviews I am seeing of Cursed Chateau are between 3-5 stars on a scale of 1-5. There certainly could be bad reviews of it elsewhere.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;624417I don't know the history of the product, and its certainly possible a proto-version of the chateau wasn't well received. But just going by the Drivethrough reviews, looks like it got a positive response in its final form. I don't really know much about Jame's stuff, except what I have indirectly seen by reading Colonial Gothic (but I don't think he was actively involved in that line, though I could be wrong). Not saying he is a good or bad designer. Just saying the reviews I am seeing of Cursed Chateau are between 3-5 stars on a scale of 1-5. There certainly could be bad reviews of it elsewhere.
I am not going to say anything but the following:
James' involvement was nominal with Colonial Gothic. The only reason his name is listed in Colonial Gothic Second Edition is because he wrote one small section pages 243 & 244 "A note about the word 'Cinematic'." This little section appeared in Colonial Gothic Revised. That is the sum of his writing and development for Colonial Gothic.
As for Shadow, Sword & Spell, his name appears in Basic because he helped create the original 12 Degrees. The words and ideas in Shadow, Sword & Spell as well as Colonial Gothic are mine.
Thanks,
Richard
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;624410I have not played it, but have heard positive things about the Cursed Chateau, and its reviews on drivethru rpg look pretty decent.
I have it and I can't say much about it as an adventure, 'cause I never really paid attention to the content beyond the floorplans.
On that note, the 'chateau' is more like a comfortable suburban home than a chateau, so it really didn't live up to its billing for me.
With regard to why I, personally, expected James to be able to deliver the megadungeon on a timely basis, I was influenced by the fact that James had worked for me as a freelancer at The Escapist (management of which is my day job). He had delivered well-written columns on time with no issue for us. Many journalists can't do that, so he had passed a basic test of reliability in my opinion. (You can find his columns by searching for "Days of High Adventure" at escapistmagazine.com).
Quote from: RI2;624426I am not going to say anything but the following:
James' involvement was nominal with Colonial Gothic. The only reason his name is listed in Colonial Gothic Second Edition is because he wrote one small section pages 243 & 244 "A note about the word 'Cinematic'." This little section appeared in Colonial Gothic Revised. That is the sum of his writing and development for Colonial Gothic.
As for Shadow, Sword & Spell, his name appears in Basic because he helped create the original 12 Degrees. The words and ideas in Shadow, Sword & Spell as well as Colonial Gothic are mine.
Thanks,
Richard
Thanks for the clarification Richard.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;624429I have it and I can't say much about it as an adventure, 'cause I never really paid attention to the content beyond the floorplans.
On that note, the 'chateau' is more like a comfortable suburban home than a chateau, so it really didn't live up to its billing for me.
Yeah, I wasn't saying it was great, or that people had to agree with the reviews (I really don't know because I haven't played his stuff). Just that there are positive reviews out there as a response to Elliot's question about whether there was any reason for people to support the project in the first place (if I were thinking of backing a project, I would certainly check out the reviews of the writer's stuff on Drivethru).
Quote from: amacris;624443With regard to why I, personally, expected James to be able to deliver the megadungeon on a timely basis, I was influenced by the fact that James had worked for me as a freelancer at The Escapist (management of which is my day job). He had delivered well-written columns on time with no issue for us. Many journalists can't do that, so he had passed a basic test of reliability in my opinion. (You can find his columns by searching for "Days of High Adventure" at escapistmagazine.com).
Hm, it seems that he can maintain a consistent level of output when it comes to writing historical essays and opinion pieces - which both Days of High Adventure and his own blog qualify as - but his track record has been patchier when it comes to actual gaming material.
See, for instance, the Petty Gods project, which somehow slipped into vaporware despite all the work having been submitted by other parties; I know he'd said "well, I need someone to do the layout and I can't do it myself" but it beggars belief that out of all the readers of his blog nobody would have stuck their hands up and said "Hey, I'm happy to do the layout in return for a complimentary hard copy".
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;624451Thanks for the clarification Richard.
My pleasure. Now I got to get back to work on your little project. :)
Richard
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;624403Oy, Sett. It's because you're my friend that I feel compelled to step into this thread. The people who paid for the game didn't literally get what they deserved.
As for the rest, though, while I feel kinda sorry for James as a human being, I really do wonder what evidence there was prior to the Kickstarter that he was going to be able to produce something worth backing. I know he had some RPG writing under his belt, but did he ever run an excellent session or publish/share an excellent adventure?
Sure, the people who signed up still are debtors towards him. They deserve the megadungeon full of bore, in PRINTED form.
As for the sympathy side, he has lost all good will by being pompous & vacous. As I noted upthread lazyness or a depression are human & understandable things. But keeping the money is where sympathy shrinks towards nothing. As far as we know, he sends away his wife to provide for him and the family. So by all logical means he still should have the money. So depression or lazyness do not prevent anybody to hand over the money back to tavis!
As for his game writing record I might need indeed step a bit away from my harsh judgement:
He obviously was a reliable producer of White Wolf texts. Only when he steered into adventure gaming where the current cool kids were did he falter. Theory: because he is w/o clue re adventure gaming.
Narcissistic pontification w/o clue resulting in stating the obvious on a daily basis and boredom beyond belief.
Chant:
Where is the money?
Chant:
Where is the money?
Chant:
Where is the money?
Louder:
Where is the money?
Not sure how many of you guys are on G+, but I've been posting my "hack, revision, re-flavoring" of Dwimmermount to my gaming circles over there. It's called Devilmount.
Basically, my plan is to strip out the bog-standard fantasy elements and make it more weird & gonzo. No orcs, kobolds, troglodytes - instead there are hogmen, pugmen, and skunkmen. No elves and dwarves - instead we've got devil-spawn and gray aliens. No fantasy gods - instead we've got a warped take on Catholicism.
No dusty rooms, BLOOD-SPATTERED ROOMS. No 2000 coppers - randomized coins rule the day!
People are even doing art for it pro-bono. If you're over there, check it out and let me know what you think.
Damn you Guignol! _I_ was doing the same thing!
http://rpggeek.com/geeklist/152775/shamwowing-a-famous-megadungeon-before-its-actuall
I poasted the first draft to the Autarch forums this morning.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;624474Damn you Guignol! _I_ was doing the same thing!
http://rpggeek.com/geeklist/152775/shamwowing-a-famous-megadungeon-before-its-actuall
I poasted the first draft to the Autarch forums this morning.
I think everybody who wants to do a take on it should do a take on it. Maybe we're the first to trickles in a flood of Dwimmermount remixes. That would be cool.
Quote from: misterguignol;624475I think everybody who wants to do a take on it should do a take on it. Maybe we're the first to trickles in a flood of Dwimmermount remixes. That would be cool.
The irony of this is, of course, that if James ever gets back to the project he may find it even more overwhelming because he finds himself having to produce something which compares favourably to all the cool fan remixes - which might send him straight back into turtling mode again.
Of course, if the Dwimmermount remixes out there are good enough, by that point people may not care so much.
Quote from: misterguignol;624472Not sure how many of you guys are on G+, but I've been posting my "hack, revision, re-flavoring" of Dwimmermount to my gaming circles over there. It's called Devilmount.
Basically, my plan is to strip out the bog-standard fantasy elements and make it more weird & gonzo. No orcs, kobolds, troglodytes - instead there are hogmen, pugmen, and skunkmen. No elves and dwarves - instead we've got devil-spawn and gray aliens. No fantasy gods - instead we've got a warped take on Catholicism.
No dusty rooms, BLOOD-SPATTERED ROOMS. No 2000 coppers - randomized coins rule the day!
People are even doing art for it pro-bono. If you're over there, check it out and let me know what you think.
Just DLed it, and looking forward to reading it cuz Mr. G stuff rocks :) Thanks Jack. Maybe I should go and take my $10 back from JM and give it to you, would probably get more for it anyway. I just feel sorry for Tavis. Feller's caught between Scylla and Carybdis on this one.
Quote from: misterguignol;624472Not sure how many of you guys are on G+, but I've been posting my "hack, revision, re-flavoring" of Dwimmermount to my gaming circles over there. It's called Devilmount.
Basically, my plan is to strip out the bog-standard fantasy elements and make it more weird & gonzo. No orcs, kobolds, troglodytes - instead there are hogmen, pugmen, and skunkmen. No elves and dwarves - instead we've got devil-spawn and gray aliens. No fantasy gods - instead we've got a warped take on Catholicism.
No dusty rooms, BLOOD-SPATTERED ROOMS. No 2000 coppers - randomized coins rule the day!
People are even doing art for it pro-bono. If you're over there, check it out and let me know what you think.
Someday I really want to see what you make of Hulks and Horrors. You have a peculiar luridness to your creations that tickles my parts in just the right ways, and may even have been further inspiration on the gonzo feel of H&H.
Quote from: Sigmund;624489Just DLed it, and looking forward to reading it cuz Mr. G stuff rocks :) Thanks Jack. Maybe I should go and take my $10 back from JM and give it to you, would probably get more for it anyway. I just feel sorry for Tavis. Feller's caught between Scylla and Carybdis on this one.
In fairness, "Here's all the money, we have no say in how you spend it or any control over the IP" was not a clever contract on their part.
Quote from: J Arcane;624491In fairness, "Here's all the money, we have no say in how you spend it or any control over the IP" was not a clever contract on their part.
True, but Tavis is a human just like the rest of us, and strictly speaking for myself, I've made enough bone-head moves in my so-far 45 years on this rock that I don't feel I can in good conscience throw stones Tavis's way. I can guess with what I think is pretty strong certainty that Tav won't be making the same mistake again :) I also know that Autarch can complete a Kickstarter, cuz I have a beautiful ACKs print on my shelf as proof.
Quote from: Warthur;624484The irony of this is, of course, that if James ever gets back to the project he may find it even more overwhelming because he finds himself having to produce something which compares favourably to all the cool fan remixes - which might send him straight back into turtling mode again.
Of course, if the Dwimmermount remixes out there are good enough, by that point people may not care so much.
It's true, but...I'm one of the people who suspects James has washed his hands of his own project.
Quote from: Sigmund;624489Just DLed it, and looking forward to reading it cuz Mr. G stuff rocks :) Thanks Jack. Maybe I should go and take my $10 back from JM and give it to you, would probably get more for it anyway. I just feel sorry for Tavis. Feller's caught between Scylla and Carybdis on this one.
Thanks, man! No worries about money; I've donated 100% of the profits I've made off publishing my humble game stuff to charity. This isn't a business to me, it's just something I do for fun.
And yeah, I do feel bad for Tavis & co. in this. Not for nothing, Tavis encouraged me to post my hack of Dwimmermount on the G+ page for the project.
Quote from: J Arcane;624491Someday I really want to see what you make of Hulks and Horrors. You have a peculiar luridness to your creations that tickles my parts in just the right ways, and may even have been further inspiration on the gonzo feel of H&H.
I'd actually love to look at it. How far along is H&H? Did it slip under my radar?
QuoteI'd actually love to look at it. How far along is H&H? Did it slip under my radar?
I was delaying it because I had a publisher offer that wouldn't be able to begin until this year.
However, I've since learned that his schedule is booked until next year, so I've decided to dust things off and have a go of it on my own. I fixed my Amazon Payments account finally, so I can make a second attempt at crowdfunding via proper Kickstarter this time, though it's looking like it will be with a new stable of artists.
I'm currently working on it as I write this, doing some finetuning of the spell rules and working on preliminary layout.
Quote from: Settembrini;624463Sure, the people who signed up still are debtors towards him. They deserve the megadungeon full of bore, in PRINTED form.
As for the sympathy side, he has lost all good will by being pompous & vacous. As I noted upthread lazyness or a depression are human & understandable things. But keeping the money is where sympathy shrinks towards nothing. As far as we know, he sends away his wife to provide for him and the family. So by all logical means he still should have the money. So depression or lazyness do not prevent anybody to hand over the money back to tavis!
Yes, I agree with all this. I just don't assume malice aforethought, thus residual sympathy for a person who's in desperate straits because he got in over his head. He owes everyone an update and a credible plan to either finish the project or return the money...but if he can't...that's pathetic in the full sense.
Quote from: misterguignol;624472Not sure how many of you guys are on G+, but I've been posting my "hack, revision, re-flavoring" of Dwimmermount to my gaming circles over there. It's called Devilmount.
Basically, my plan is to strip out the bog-standard fantasy elements and make it more weird & gonzo. No orcs, kobolds, troglodytes - instead there are hogmen, pugmen, and skunkmen. No elves and dwarves - instead we've got devil-spawn and gray aliens. No fantasy gods - instead we've got a warped take on Catholicism.
No dusty rooms, BLOOD-SPATTERED ROOMS. No 2000 coppers - randomized coins rule the day!
People are even doing art for it pro-bono. If you're over there, check it out and let me know what you think.
This is the absolute best Dwimmermount-related news I could get. Jmal can keep my $10, or better still, send it to misterguignol.
If a week sooner, I wouldn't have ordered ASE. Ah well, no such thing as too many dungeons. Devilmount sounds exactly like the sort of thing I want to run this year. What are you stating it for, B/X?
Quote from: The Butcher;624519If a week sooner, I wouldn't have ordered ASE.
Crank up the 'Grey Men might be artificial alien life forms' implication in Devilmount and hop right from Devilmount to ASE. Via interplanetary teleport or a wicked-sweet Spelljammer-type interlude between your megadungeons.
Quote from: JRT;624111I think the main thing that's troubling is that much of the ado seems to be because James is a big target. There's a lot of people IMO who have a bone to pick with James--either because he's got more blog traffic than others, because they dislike his opinions, or even jealousy. I think that has lead to an unusual harshness in the criticism, and when people start doing things like taking private posts on G+ publicly, or trying to dig up stuff he wrote almost a decade ago and psychoanalyze him based on an old LiveJournal post--it's rather troubling. It's akin to pig-piling on.
Live by the internet, die by the internet. Cost of doing business. The only thing fast-food culture of any kind loves more then a new self-anointed celebrity, is the destruction of one. The guy rode his completely unfounded and undeserved "scholar" image for all it was worth, hell if he did
absolutely nothing and people turned on him and piled on he would 100% deserve it.
Let's get one thing straight. He took $50,000 from people and is giving no one, not even his business partners in this enterprise any communication for months now. The internet shitstorm he's getting hit with now is 100% one of his own creation.
Quote from: TristramEvans;624225Whatever Jmal has done or doesnt do, he's not the one hanging out on RPG forums acting like an ass.
Yeah he does that on his blog *cue rimshot*.
Sorry, back to the regularly scheduled Schadenfreude.
You know what, fuck Schadenfreude and fuck James M. close this thread and make a new one where people can talk about their
Dwimmermount Mixes, which at this point it's safe to say, will be better than the original anyway.
Quote from: The Butcher;624519This is the absolute best Dwimmermount-related news I could get. Jmal can keep my $10, or better still, send it to misterguignol.
If a week sooner, I wouldn't have ordered ASE. Ah well, no such thing as too many dungeons. Devilmount sounds exactly like the sort of thing I want to run this year. What are you stating it for, B/X?
ASE is worth your time and money, though. Good stuff in there.
Yeah, I do B/X or LL style stats.
Quote from: estar;624128I am sure there will be criticism of the use of the Outdoor Survival Map. But it not a simple case of copying the original board game art. You can't use the map I created to play Outdoor Survival. Yes it duplicates the overall geography but the symbols, the shading, and the rest of it are new pieces of art created by myself. Enough differences exist that I am comfortable in releasing it.
Sounds a bit like taking the map of
Talisman, Zargos Lords, Barbarian Prince, Divine Right, Dungeon, or
Greyhawk, and reinterpret them in another style.
I do that all the time at my table games but for a commercial product this seems a bit risky.
Personally, I'd be more interested in seeing a vinyl map of a new area but I guess since the
Outdoor Survival map is a part of the history of RPGs it has a certain standing in the OSR.
Quote from: misterguignol;624584ASE is worth your time and money, though. Good stuff in there.
I second that opinion. It IS good stuff, IF you like gonzo sci-fi-ish dungeoneering (and I do).
Also, the maps are really well done in terms of flow and agency, especially for the large levels.
Quote from: Settembrini;624395But more importantly: the SUPER LAME musings about Dwimmermount to begin with! Everyone who paid for it got what he deserved.
For the record, I had very little familiarity with J. Mal. prior to the kickstarter. I hadn't read his blog, or kept up on his other projects. I just stumbled on a KS for a megadungeon and thought it would be a neat book to read through.
So not every backer was a JMal fanboi that hung on his every word. I had heard good things about AKS and backed the project for more than a pdf because Autarch was running it. I believed that even if the product was kind of lame and lackluster, that I would still be getting it.
So no, I don't think getting a draft pdf for $66.00 is getting what I deserve. I deserve a printed hardback copy of a crappy megadungeon which was all I was expecting in the first place.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;624721So not every backer was a JMal fanboi that hung on his every word. I had heard good things about AKS and backed the project for more than a pdf because Autarch was running it. I believed that even if the product was kind of lame and lackluster, that I would still be getting it.
So no, I don't think getting a draft pdf for $66.00 is getting what I deserve. I deserve a printed hardback copy of a crappy megadungeon which was all I was expecting in the first place.
Apologies sent towards you! But then IRWS argumented strongly about that angle: Autarch was trustworthy and he blames them for accepting a very unfavourable contract with Jamal.
Quote from: Cadriel;624234As part of the OSR - I'm sort of relieved. James had a stature in the OSR, and his blog was a "central" point in it to such a degree, and in retrospect it wasn't really merited at all. Now he's blown that credibility and all the good will that go along with it. I think it's better for the old school community in the long run not to have a Grognardia as some sort of gatekeeper or "blog of record" or whatever it was that James's blog was acting as.
On this I agree; the dude was something of a wanker, who decided, after years of not liking old-school that he would like old-school, and like St. Paul at Damascus, he felt that now he, and not everyone who'd been part of the old-school gaming thing all along, should be the one to determine what the Word From On High is.
So yes, I think its excellent that he's been shown for the incompetent dilettante that he always was.
But I do feel bad for Autarch... to think, they could have been publishing Arrows of Indra right now, instead of being in this mess; if only they hadn't backed the wrong blogging celeb!
Ah well, Autarch's loss will be Bedrock's gain.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;624812On this I agree; the dude was something of a wanker, who decided, after years of not liking old-school that he would like old-school, and like St. Paul at Damascus, he felt that now he, and not everyone who'd been part of the old-school gaming thing all along, should be the one to determine what the Word From On High is.
There's no zealot quite like a convert.
Quoteand like St. Paul at Damascus, he felt that now he, and not everyone who'd been part of the old-school gaming thing all along, should be the one to determine what the Word From On High is.
I never got the sense that James ever thought he was that. He just wrote articles and people liked them. In many posts, he rejects the notion of that label of "pope of the old school" or other things the other people put on him.
I saw it as simply an opinion column, like any other blog, or the opinion columns you read in the paper. I think too many people assume a serious tone = a haughty arrogance.
Quote from: RPGPundit;624812But I do feel bad for Autarch... to think, they could have been publishing Arrows of Indra right now, instead of being in this mess; if only they hadn't backed the wrong blogging celeb!
I am speechless with awe at this sentence.
Quote from: JRT;624821I never got the sense that James ever thought he was that.
He didn't say it himself, and as you mention, he was actually laughing at the idea publicly, through his blog and G+. It's a fact, nonetheless, that his blog was a center of attention of Das OSR, that some people certainly didn't want to rub him the wrong way to go along with whatever he posted on his site, because if he talked about you, that meant that much exposition to Das OSR and that many potential sales, probably (whereas not agreeing with him would lead him to ignore you at best, to delete your posts and block you otherwise), and that he welcomed the attention enough to make a business out of it with his "legendary" Dwimmermount and Grognardia Games.
Now of course he would laugh at the idea he'd be "the Pope of the OSR". But he didn't spit at the 50K handed to him by his sponsors either, did he now? He's also the guy who rushed to his keyboard to report the death of Dave Arneson when he wasn't dead yet, and the way he jumped on the "scoop" tells me he very much wanted the attention if he could get it. He made a mistake, felt bad about it or felt like he looked like enough of a fool to apologize about it (http://grognardia.blogspot.ca/2009/04/dave-arneson-is-still-with-us.html), but that very much happened as well.
I don't wish ill will to James and I hope he can turn things around, or at least apologize for not delivering to his sponsors. But at the same time, let us not be naive about the whole thing and present him like he's a victim of everything that happened to him. He put himself in this situation. He wanted the attention and used it to move some product he ultimately couldn't deliver (in a timely fashion, at least). Come on, now. Let's be honest, here.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;624816There's no zealot quite like a convert.
Even more amusing are the individuals who frequently change the subject of their zealotry. (They easily drop old subjects, and convert to another subject).
Once they get bored with a particular subject, they move on to another subject for their zealotry, and frequently condemn the previous subject of their previous zealotry.
Quote from: JRT;624821I never got the sense that James ever thought he was that. He just wrote articles and people liked them. In many posts, he rejects the notion of that label of "pope of the old school" or other things the other people put on him.
I saw it as simply an opinion column, like any other blog, or the opinion columns you read in the paper. I think too many people assume a serious tone = a haughty arrogance.
A hobbyist blogger does not deserve the same commentary from the peanut gallery as a professional RPG designer.
Which one of those did James consider himself, again? IIRC the justification about his drawing down the KS funds during the creative process was due to his status as a professional.
Although I think James - even as a hobbyist blogger - knew exactly his influence among large numbers of old-school gamers, and was not shy about actively using this influence. The numerous back-handed requests for free collectible RPG products (some at not inconsiderable values) from his readership assumed a certain privileged position on his part.
It is always unfortunate, however, to see someone build up the credibility over long periods of time, and then lose it in a train wreck when taking the shot it earned them.
Although I wonder if the revelation that Tavis and Autarch have no IP rights was realized even by Autarch at the time, or if James recently corrected Autarch's position on this matter. I say this because earlier in this thread, when asked about this exact scenario, Tavis said that the fall back position was that Autarch would hire someone else to finish the dungeon. But now they're saying they can't do that. So was that an honest plan at the time, or was that smoke-up-the-skirt?
James stopped communicating with Autarch on November 19, which just happens to be right around the six-month period after the end of the kickstarter when the credit cards were charged, and after which it would be more difficult for anyone to pursue a reversal of charges from their credit card company (many can only be reversed for six months, although terms vary between companies).
Quote from: EOTB;624856Although I wonder if the revelation that Tavis and Autarch have no IP rights was realized even by Autarch at the time, or if James recently corrected Autarch's position on this matter. I say this because earlier in this thread, when asked about this exact scenario, Tavis said that the fall back position was that Autarch would hire someone else to finish the dungeon. But now they're saying they can't do that. So was that an honest plan at the time, or was that smoke-up-the-skirt?
I can speak to this. I was the one who drafted the contract, so I was always quite aware of the status of our IP rights. At one point we did plan to push forward regardless. I told Tavis I'd help edit and finish the dungeon; I work very fast.
Unfortunately when the time actually came to actually do so, we decided it wasn't the right thing to do, morally or strategically. Morally, there is the old notion that "in equity one must have clean hands," or put another way, if you ever would like to seek redress for a wrong done you, be sure not to have done wrong yourself. Strategically, pushing forward without the IP is a no-win situation. If the project fails, we've put ourselves at legal risk to no gain. If the project succeeds, any profits would simply encourage James to sue Autarch.
(Also, just to correct a mis-perception, our contract specifies that in exchange for the Kickstarter funds, James assumes the obligations of the Kickstarter. It's not the case that we gave him the assets without the liabilities.)
Quote from: amacris;624859I can speak to this. I was the one who drafted the contract, so I was always quite aware of the status of our IP rights. At one point we did plan to push forward regardless. I told Tavis I'd help edit and finish the dungeon; I work very fast.
Unfortunately when the time actually came to actually do so, we decided it wasn't the right thing to do, morally or strategically. Morally, there is the old notion that "in equity one must have clean hands," or put another way, if you ever would like to seek redress for a wrong done you, be sure not to have done wrong yourself. Strategically, pushing forward without the IP is a no-win situation. If the project fails, we've put ourselves at legal risk to no gain. If the project succeeds, any profits would simply encourage James to sue Autarch.
(Also, just to correct a mis-perception, our contract specifies that in exchange for the Kickstarter funds, James assumes the obligations of the Kickstarter. It's not the case that we gave him the assets without the liabilities.)
Thank you for your reply. That clarifies things, and also is another thing to chalk up to future lessons learned, I guess. The reason I say this is because the statement that Autarch would finish Dwimmermount and publish it, even if James flaked, likely provided some confidence to people who were on the fence at the time the statement was made. There is - according to yourself - no change in circumstances, or understanding of circumstances, on the part of Autarch between then and now, only a change of heart.
But if, back then, a statement similar to the one you just made would have been put out, more people might have decided to seek refunds when it was still possible to do so, either directly through James or indirectly through their credit card companies.
As to the transferral of liabilities from Autarch to James - Did Kickstarter agree to holding James as the responsible party? My assumption would be that Kickstarter would still hold Autarch as the responsible party, and that it would just be up to Autarch to separately litigate the issue with James.
Not that I expect any of this to go there. The money involved is too small potatoes for anybody to take the time.
Quote from: amacris;624859(Also, just to correct a mis-perception, our contract specifies that in exchange for the Kickstarter funds, James assumes the obligations of the Kickstarter. It's not the case that we gave him the assets without the liabilities.)
Seems sound. I appreciate what you say about "in equity one must have clean hands" in particular.
One question whilst you're here: did James ever provide you with a budget of how he intended to spend the money?
Quote from: EOTB;624863As to the transferral of liabilities from Autarch to James - Did Kickstarter agree to holding James as the responsible party? My assumption would be that Kickstarter would still hold Autarch as the responsible party, and that it would just be up to Autarch to separately litigate the issue with James.
Not that I expect any of this to go there. The money involved is too small potatoes for anybody to take the time.
Great question. The legal situation is complex.
1. Is there still a contract Between Autarch and Kickstarter for delivery of the rewards? No. Kickstarter's Terms of Use state that "by... creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you agree [that you] are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill." We assigned this to James. (But see #3 below).
2. Will Kickstarter enforce on that Contract? Unlikely. Kickstarter specifically says "Kickstarter is not liable for any damages or loss incurred related to rewards or any other use of the Service. Kickstarter is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between any Users, or between Users and any third party arising in connection with the use of the Service. Kickstarter does not oversee the performance or punctuality of projects." Kickstarter has no legal reason to get involved.
3. Does our assignment of our Kickstarter contract to James relieve us of our obligation to Backers? No. Under common law, one can assign a contract, but this does not relieve the assignor (Autarch) of its obligation (to Kickstarter or to the Backers) in the event that the assignee (James) breaches.
4. What would happen in the case that Backers sued Autarch? We would have to exercise our right to sue J.M. for breach of our Agreement, entering him as a party into the lawsuit so that he could indemnify us for our loss.
That said, Autarch is an LLC and therefore its losses are limited to its corporate assets (which are nil) while James as an individual would be personally liable. Therefore any lawyer who brought this case would likely file it against him, not us, as soon as they saw our balance sheet. Given the personal risk involved, I cannot imagine that James will leave the contract unfulfilled. Delay - yes. Default - no.
Quote from: Warthur;624866Seems sound. I appreciate what you say about "in equity one must have clean hands" in particular.
One question whilst you're here: did James ever provide you with a budget of how he intended to spend the money?
It was, rather, vice versa: Tavis created a budget for James detailing the costs for art, layout, design, and printing. It was highly detailed. Tavis writes grant proposals for a living, so he is very meticulous. He could quote you the cost per unit of the maps, the shipping & handling fees on the softcover art books, etc. There is/was a plan for every dollar.
In other words, we had a contract with clearly assigned liability, a budget, and a project manager. I don't think there's much else we could have done to avoid being harmed by the "black swan" of James disappearing.
If we had kept the funds we could have then offered refunds but we didn't keep the funds for tax reasons - by making it a pure passthrough transaction, we didn't get stuck with a tax bill. Even if we had the IP and published "a" Dwimmermount, Backers could (in theory) sue us because what we published wouldn't "James Mal's Dwimmermount".
So my life lesson here is never, ever, ever, ever be involved in a Kickstarter I can't *personally* fulfill.
What kind of man is this?
1) Sends his wife into the world to provide for him
2) Does not provide for his kids materially
3) Spends a lot of time online with his hobby while his wife is working to
provide for him and the family
4) Did not serve
5) Wrote for White Wolf
6) Made nothing material out of his education (once pursued a Ph D in analytical philosophy)
7) Born in Bawlmore
8) Fled to Canada
9) Claimed 50k on his online hobby bona fides
10) Has wee-wee in his eyes because his 70+ father might die before he does?
11) Wrote boring essays on old hobby mags while the kids were in school an the wife earning money for him?
Quote from: Settembrini;624888What kind of man is this?
7) Born in Bawlmore
Easy, there, Sett. :)
Stream-of-consciousness observation as I was catching up on this thread just now: After 'Petty Gods', I think the 'black swan event' wasn't nearly so black.
Quote from: Settembrini;624888What kind of man is this?
1) Sends his wife into the world to provide for him
2) Does not provide for his kids materially
3) Spends a lot of time online with his hobby while his wife is working to
provide for him and the family
4) Did not serve
5) Wrote for White Wolf
6) Made nothing material out of his education (once pursued a Ph D in analytical philosophy)
7) Born in Bawlmore
8) Fled to Canada
9) Claimed 50k on his online hobby bona fides
10) Has wee-wee in his eyes because his 70+ father might die before he does?
11) Wrote boring essays on old hobby mags while the kids were in school an the wife earning money for him?
There exists people who satisfy 1 to 4 in the above list. (5 to 11 seems to be more specific to JamesM).
They're better known as as wannabe rock stars, starving artists, unknown actors, struggling writers, poets, etc ...
Quote from: Settembrini;624888What kind of man is this?
1) Sends his wife into the world to provide for him
2) Does not provide for his kids materially
3) Spends a lot of time online with his hobby while his wife is working to
provide for him and the family
I don't get any of this. Welcome to the 21st century. Gender roles no longer require it be the man who works and the woman who stays home. Instead, it can be either one. There is no evidence that he "sent" his wife to work. Rather, odds are (without any further evidence) that she wanted to work and he wanted to stay home and that was their agreement.
You can live in the 1950s all you want, but don't place your perception of how married couples should live on other people. Leave that stuff for your own relationship.
Quote4) Did not serve
In the military? You think this is somehow a morality issue, that someone does not choose to serve in the military?
Quote5) Wrote for White Wolf
6) Made nothing material out of his education (once pursued a Ph D in analytical philosophy)
Other that professor of philosophy, there isn't much in that field to begin with. He made as much out of his degree as most people with that degree - he's a writer.
Quote7) Born in Bawlmore
Wow. You're blaming him for his place of birth? Now I know you're an asshole, I am just trying to classify you as to what type of asshole you are.
Quote8) Fled to Canada
Fled? What, is he a fugitive from justice? He moved. Lots of people move nations. The owner of this message board moved nations. There is nothing wrong with moving.
Quote9) Claimed 50k on his online hobby bona fides
Yeah, this is the issue, the only issue, that we're talking about.
Quote10) Has wee-wee in his eyes because his 70+ father might die before he does?
Wee-wee? What are you, a child? Of course caring for a daring parent is hard, you douchebag.
Quote11) Wrote boring essays on old hobby mags while the kids were in school an the wife earning money for him?
Again, nothing wrong with that.
You seem to have a bizarre perception of what a "real man" is like. Your perception is not reality. It's not even this decade, and it comes off as more than a little sexist and sterotyping in parts.
See, this is where I hate the anonymity. You're attacking the guys personal life, in ways that have nothing to do with this topic, just to attack the guy. Most of that shit is meaningless for the topic at hand, other than to make it you personally hating on the guy. And yet, you don't tell others about your own personal life so we can judge if you are a hypocrite. Which itself makes you a hypocrite. Let's hear all about your "manly" life - I am sure if we get enough answers to questions, you'll be shown to be the asshole you're sounding like right now.
He took $50k without delivering the product. That's the only legit issue you mention. The rest was just you letting everyone know you're a fucking idiot.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;624816There's no zealot quite like a convert.
Ha! :rotfl:
QuoteHe didn't say it himself, and as you mention, he was actually laughing at the idea publicly, through his blog and G+. It's a fact, nonetheless, that his blog was a center of attention of Das OSR,
I am not absolving James of criticism, nor defending the Dwimmermount situation.
I was specifically addressing the fact that some people feel his success as a blog wasn't "deserved", for whatever reason. While everybody has an opinion, I think the fact that he has or had a strong following is proof that enough people were interested. If supposedly more deserving bloggers didn't get enough attention, that's the breaks of how the vox populi work.
Quote from: JRT;624910I am not absolving James of criticism, nor defending the Dwimmermount situation.
I was specifically addressing the fact that some people feel his success as a blog wasn't "deserved", for whatever reason. While everybody has an opinion, I think the fact that he has or had a strong following is proof that enough people were interested. If supposedly more deserving bloggers didn't get enough attention, that's the breaks of how the vox populi work.
If this is addressed to me, I think James's reputation as part of the OSR is something that was undeserved, not the relative success of Grognardia. He very carefully built himself up as a "voice" of the old school gaming community, and put forward a very narrow, purist, and vanilla subset of that community's ideas (very much reflected in the Dwimmermount draft) as "the real thing." James's fall from that stature is welcome because it removes a voice that I don't think was a healthy part of that community and opens the ground up for more diverse voices.
I do object, strongly, to Settembrini's moralistic judgments of Maliszewski. Failing to release "Petty Gods" despite people
doing the work for him is just fucked, as is the way he's acted towards Dwimmermount, But the need to catalog a guy's personal life and pontificate about it is bullshit.
Quote from: Cadriel;624917But the need to catalog a guy's personal life and pontificate about it is bullshit.
Welcome to theRPGSite!
Quote from: JRT;624910I am not absolving James of criticism, nor defending the Dwimmermount situation.
I was specifically addressing the fact that some people feel his success as a blog wasn't "deserved", for whatever reason. While everybody has an opinion, I think the fact that he has or had a strong following is proof that enough people were interested. If supposedly more deserving bloggers didn't get enough attention, that's the breaks of how the vox populi work.
James had his fans, and those people generally liked everything he put out.
I am familiar with many criticisms of James, but none that he didn't "deserve" his following. I think you might be misinterpreting a belief in some quarters that his observations were not as calorie-dense as many touted them to be.
Quote from: Settembrini;624888What kind of man is this?
1) Sends his wife into the world to provide for him
2) Does not provide for his kids materially
3) Spends a lot of time online with his hobby while his wife is working to
provide for him and the family
4) Did not serve
5) Wrote for White Wolf
6) Made nothing material out of his education (once pursued a Ph D in analytical philosophy)
7) Born in Bawlmore
8) Fled to Canada
9) Claimed 50k on his online hobby bona fides
10) Has wee-wee in his eyes because his 70+ father might die before he does?
11) Wrote boring essays on old hobby mags while the kids were in school an the wife earning money for him?
After reading this post of yours, I've come to the conclusion that you are about as useful as a cock-flavored lollipop. Fuck off.
Quote from: amacris;624859(Also, just to correct a mis-perception, our contract specifies that in exchange for the Kickstarter funds, James assumes the obligations of the Kickstarter. It's not the case that we gave him the assets without the liabilities.)
Good to know, however did you check to see if that's worth anything considering this case would be international?
I am not fan of Grogtardia, but "hasn't delivered yet" isn't the same as "not gonna deliver."
I don't like the guy's style at all, but if he really has health issues and a dying parent, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt for at least another six months past his previous deadline.
He does owe his backers some communication. Even a "you will get DwimmerSuck in December 2014. Toodles!" is better than silence.
Quote from: estar;624128What I am doing is going to help Tavis and Autarch salvage some of what owed by drawing some maps they can use for their second kickstarter to get the dry erase maps and tracker out.
That is very cool of you. Kudos!
Quote from: Cadriel;624234I think it's better for the old school community in the long run not to have Grognardia as some sort of gatekeeper or "blog of record" or whatever it was that James's blog was acting as.
True.
Quote from: CRKrueger;624946Good to know, however did you check to see if that's worth anything considering this case would be international?
There is no case. Its just 50k which in legal circles is called no money. Add another zero before it even slightly begins to matter.
I've sat through civil cases where $100k was dismissed for $5k being returned due to bankruptcy, illness, bad business climate, dog ate our company, etc. Unless Jimbo has liquid assets, good freaking luck.
Kickstarter isn't a store. It's a patronage site. It's angel investing. You throw your money into the ring and hope you are betting on the right horse. Sometime your bets turn out fine...and sometimes they don't.
Quote from: Spinachcat;625009There is no case. Its just 50k which in legal circles is called no money. Add another zero before it even slightly begins to matter.
I've sat through civil cases where $100k was dismissed for $5k being returned due to bankruptcy, illness, bad business climate, dog ate our company, etc. Unless Jimbo has liquid assets, good freaking luck.
People get sued for less then 50k every day, of course you're not gonna get some professional Class Action outfit swooping in, but people go to court every day for less than that.
Quote from: Spinachcat;625009isn't a store. It's a patronage site. It's angel investing. You throw your money into the ring and hope you are betting on the right horse. Sometime your bets turn out fine...and sometimes they don't.
Not that I don't agree with you in theory, but I also know that what you or I think Kickstarter is doesn't matter. What Kickstarter thinks it is doesn't matter either. What matters in the end, is whatever Court a case lands in eventually says about it.
Quote from: amacris;624887So my life lesson here is never, ever, ever, ever be involved in a Kickstarter I can't *personally* fulfill.
That's a decent lesson.
On the author's side, there is another one about personal responsibility and having at least a draft manuscript before getting into seeking financing. James isn't even the first offender here - Rob Kuntz has screwed so many publishers and business partners I have lost count (although it helps his stuff is actually vivid and imaginative - if often deeply flawed), and other noted authors have also failed to deliver time and again. It seems to me that this risk should never be dismissed in hobby publishing, and companies should build appropriate safeguards into their contracts.
Quote from: Settembrini;624888What kind of man is this?
5) Wrote for White Wolf
Everything else can be forgiven but THIS!!! :rotfl:
Quote from: Melan;625027That's a decent lesson.
On the author's side, there is another one about personal responsibility and having at least a draft manuscript before getting into seeking financing. James isn't even the first offender here - Rob Kuntz has screwed so many publishers and business partners I have lost count (although it helps his stuff is actually vivid and imaginative - if often deeply flawed), and other noted authors have also failed to deliver time and again.
prophetic!
I wish to apologize for all Baltimorians. I was not implying that would be anyhting bad!
I just made a list of what FACTS we know.
Re guy who said sth about usefulness and lollipops:
As it happens there are a sufficient amount of people who enjoy the taste of my dick.
So such a lollipo might not be useless at all.
On a more general note, homophobia as seen (what is up with the kent-hate?) on YDIS is sickening to me.
Why is it more damnable to suck cocks compared to a moocher sitting at home writing pompous stuff about D&D while the rest of the family is doing their duty?
As antiquated as it sounds but this is were I see manliness: do your duty towards your dependents. And as it seems, Jamal does not do this. This puts him firmly into the kind of people I lack sympathy or respect for.
I don't care if you suck feet, cock or your thumb. You are a man if you care for your dependents. By Jamals behaviour of a bored teenager pursueing his dream of RPG stardom on the purse and time of his family...he even endangers their well-being by piling up debt now!
From now on, we might have to do the responsible thing and think about his family, help them stay clean of that mess. With just one earner, a 50k debt can break your neck.
So Sett, what are you gaining by posting all this information about James? Do you think we are benighted idiots awaiting to illuminated by your wisdom? Or do you have a need to participate in gossip?
In general it is a good thing to offer warnings and concerns. But at some point is becomes what we call in English,
Beating a dead horse.
I just summarized what we learned from this thread.
It is also vital to the central question:
Where is the money?
Quote from: Melan;625027That's a decent lesson.
On the author's side, there is another one about personal responsibility and having at least a draft manuscript before getting into seeking financing. James isn't even the first offender here - Rob Kuntz has screwed so many publishers and business partners I have lost count (although it helps his stuff is actually vivid and imaginative - if often deeply flawed), and other noted authors have also failed to deliver time and again. It seems to me that this risk should never be dismissed in hobby publishing, and companies should build appropriate safeguards into their contracts.
Sage advice. I certainly will!
Quote from: CRKrueger;624946Good to know, however did you check to see if that's worth anything considering this case would be international?
I did, so I put a choice of law provision in the contract specifying North Carolina. That doesn't make things easy, but it certainly makes them easier.
Quote from: amacris;624887Even if we had the IP and published "a" Dwimmermount, Backers could (in theory) sue us because what we published wouldn't "James Mal's Dwimmermount".
Given a draft of the material exists, I think that would have been an exceedingly hard suit as the line between editing it and completing it is very grey.
Quote from: Spinachcat;625009There is no case. Its just 50k which in legal circles is called no money. Add another zero before it even slightly begins to matter.
Bullshit. As an attorney with 18 years experience, you sir are full of shit. $50K is a pretty common number to sue over. Heck, $20K is a pretty common number to sue over.
Quote from: Settembrini;625075I wish to apologize for all Baltimorians. I was not implying that would be anyhting bad!
I just made a list of what FACTS we know.
Re guy who said sth about usefulness and lollipops:
As it happens there are a sufficient amount of people who enjoy the taste of my dick.
So such a lollipo might not be useless at all.
On a more general note, homophobia as seen (what is up with the kent-hate?) on YDIS is sickening to me.
Why is it more damnable to suck cocks compared to a moocher sitting at home writing pompous stuff about D&D while the rest of the family is doing their duty?\
Are you high?
Serious question - what was the level of your intoxication while you posted that, with a 1 being totally sober, and a 10 being unconscious and drooling?
Quote from: Mistwell;625234Are you high?
a high percentage of what he posts is off the meds stuff like that.
Quote from: Mistwell;625230Bullshit. As an attorney with 18 years experience, you sir are full of shit. $50K is a pretty common number to sue over. Heck, $20K is a pretty common number to sue over.
Are you volunteering to take the case?
Quote from: Mistwell;625234Are you high?
Serious question - what was the level of your intoxication while you posted that, with a 1 being totally sober, and a 10 being unconscious and drooling?
I have met Settembrini personally a few years ago, and on the intoxication scale, I rate him a 0.5 [Prussian]. He did introduce me to some very odd kinds of beer, however.
Quote from: misterguignol;625239Are you volunteering to take the case?
No, my practice these days is down to just transactions and contracts drafting, unless it's a close personal friend or family member. But, if a person comes in the door to most general litigation firms and has a $50K case that looks good, they'll take it. $50K is a perfectly fine number for a case.
Quote from: Melan;625243I have met Settembrini personally a few years ago, and on the intoxication scale, I rate him a 0.5 [Prussian]. He did introduce me to some very odd kinds of beer, however.
Prussian Polish, Prussian German, Prussian Lithuanian or Latvian or Estonian? Prussian Ukrainian? What sort of Prussian?
Quote from: Mistwell;625260Prussian Polish, Prussian German, Prussian Lithuanian or Latvian or Estonian? Prussian Ukrainian? What sort of Prussian?
Prussian Supremacist.
Quote from: J Arcane;625270Prussian Supremacist.
So Polish then.
Quote from: Mistwell;625257No, my practice these days is down to just transactions and contracts drafting, unless it's a close personal friend or family member. But, if a person comes in the door to most general litigation firms and has a $50K case that looks good, they'll take it. $50K is a perfectly fine number for a case.
I had lent $20,000 to someone with a lien against their duplex, and a contract that they would pay me back that money, as well as all rental income every month until 2 years later. It was around $35,000 total. When he defaulted (and the duplex was foreclosed on and sold at auction and I didn't get a penny (2nd lien position), I was advised by more than one lawyer to not bother suing, because it would cost me between $3000-$5000 just in fees, and I'd probably never see the money.
With regard to whether or not to sue, four key variables are:
(a) How much is at stake
(b) What's the likelihood of winning
(c) How much it will cost to win
(d) How much of what's at stake is recoverable
(a) and (b) are the obvious ones that people focus on. "He owes me $50,000 and I can prove it!"
(c) can vary widely so you need an expert opinion. Is the defendant in another state? Another country? Is the defendant going to have counsel of his own that will fight an attritional legal battle? Is it a well-understood area of law with clear guidelines? All can drive up cost.
(d) is what most people totally overlook unless they are practicing attorneys. If you go after a corporate entity, you are limited to recovering corporate assets. If you go after a person, they have unlimited liability, but they can declare bankruptcy and protect their most vital, valuable assets against you. With few assets and available bankruptcy protection, many people end up what's called "judgment proof": No one would ever both to sue them.
Generally the extent to which you are "judgment proof" rises proportionately to the cost it would take to win and the amount that's at stake. If it would cost someone $100,000 to win a $5MM law suit against me, it'd be a waste of their time, because I don't have $100,000 worth of assets. On the other hand, it might be worth my neighbor suing me in small claims court and spending $500 to get $5000.
So would it be worth an attorney's time to sue Autarch for $50,000? Not likely. We don't have the money. Would it be worth an attorney's time to sue WOTC for $50,000? Sure.
Would it be worth an attorney's time to sue James Mal for $50,000? Almost certainly not, unless James has wealth far in excess of the average American squirreled away (and I don't have any reason to think that).
Quote from: amacris;625286With regard to whether or not to sue, four key variables are:
(a) How much is at stake
(b) What's the likelihood of winning
(c) How much it will cost to win
(d) How much of what's at stake is recoverable
(a) and (b) are the obvious ones that people focus on. "He owes me $50,000 and I can prove it!"
(c) can vary widely so you need an expert opinion. Is the defendant in another state? Another country? Is the defendant going to have counsel of his own that will fight an attritional legal battle? Is it a well-understood area of law with clear guidelines? All can drive up cost.
(d) is what most people totally overlook unless they are practicing attorneys. If you go after a corporate entity, you are limited to recovering corporate assets. If you go after a person, they have unlimited liability, but they can declare bankruptcy and protect their most vital, valuable assets against you. With few assets and available bankruptcy protection, many people end up what's called "judgment proof": No one would ever both to sue them.
Generally the extent to which you are "judgment proof" rises proportionately to the cost it would take to win and the amount that's at stake. If it would cost someone $100,000 to win a $5MM law suit against me, it'd be a waste of their time, because I don't have $100,000 worth of assets. On the other hand, it might be worth my neighbor suing me in small claims court and spending $500 to get $5000.
So would it be worth an attorney's time to sue Autarch for $50,000? Not likely. We don't have the money. Would it be worth an attorney's time to sue WOTC for $50,000? Sure.
Would it be worth an attorney's time to sue James Mal for $50,000? Almost certainly not, unless James has wealth far in excess of the average American squirreled away (and I don't have any reason to think that).
And whether we like the way things are going or not, it remains possible that Dwimmermount will still get finished as expected. I have seen some very old projects in the academic world suddenly spring to life and bloom.
I am not necessarily betting, but I have seen far more unlikely recoveries. Sometimes it can actually improve the product since, when you look at your own work with "stranger's eyes", you can actually be a surprisingly good editor.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;625282I had lent $20,000 to someone with a lien against their duplex, and a contract that they would pay me back that money, as well as all rental income every month until 2 years later. It was around $35,000 total. When he defaulted (and the duplex was foreclosed on and sold at auction and I didn't get a penny (2nd lien position), I was advised by more than one lawyer to not bother suing, because it would cost me between $3000-$5000 just in fees, and I'd probably never see the money.
So it would cost you 10% to 15% or so of the money, which is quite fair (contingency is 35% to 50%). Risk of defendant bankruptcy would be the only real issue there. Otherwise, I cannot think of why they would not happily take your money. Though, 99% of the time, once you dig into stories, they're never quite as good as the client thinks they are when they first walk in the door.
Quote from: amacris;625286Would it be worth an attorney's time to sue James Mal for $50,000? Almost certainly not, unless James has wealth far in excess of the average American squirreled away (and I don't have any reason to think that).
Has he declared bankruptcy in the relatively recent past? If he has, then it probably would be worth it. That is, assuming it's a good case (and I am not convinced it is).
you distasteful breadheads, tut tut
Quote from: Settembrini;624888What kind of man is this?
1) Sends his wife into the world to provide for him
A clever man.
Quote2) Does not provide for his kids materially
A poor man?
Quote3) Spends a lot of time online with his hobby while his wife is working to
provide for him and the family
A lucky man.
Quote4) Did not serve
A free man.
Quote5) Wrote for White Wolf
A man who made some money off his hobby.
Quote6) Made nothing material out of his education (once pursued a Ph D in analytical philosophy)
An average man.
Quote7) Born in Bawlmore
A Bawlmorian.
Quote8) Fled to Canada
A smart man.
Quote9) Claimed 50k on his online hobby bona fides
A geeky man.
Quote10) Has wee-wee in his eyes because his 70+ father might die before he does?
A human fucking being.
Quote11) Wrote boring essays on old hobby mags while the kids were in school an the wife earning money for him?
Again a lucky man.
Quote from: Mistwell;625230Bullshit. As an attorney with 18 years experience, you sir are full of shit. $50K is a pretty common number to sue over. Heck, $20K is a pretty common number to sue over.
Most lawsuits are good for an attorney. Few are useful to the plaintiff.
As a business consultant, I regularly negotiate settlements and dance with attorneys. The "let's sue" route is always yummy for the lawyers and that's why they lead people down that path.
Mistwell, I am not saying you do that, but we both know the cockroaches crawling through the halls of 111 North Hill and the rest of the courthouses of America.
Quote from: Settembrini;625075I wish to apologize for all Baltimorians. I was not implying that would be anyhting bad!
Apology accepted, Sett. I will issue an immediate 'halt' order to the Ray Lewis Stab-o-Tron 3000 Mandroid I put on a boat to Germany yesterday.
Quote from: Settembrini;625075I wish to apologize for all Baltimorians. I was not implying that would be anyhting bad!.
So you did mean to imply that being a stay at home dad, writing for games, not serving in the military, moving to Canada, and being sad if one's parent dies are bad things?
If my wife suddenly had a raise to account for my income, I'd volunteer to be a stay-at-home dad and take our daughter to school, do all the laundry, go to the grocery store, clean the house, etc. etc. She knows it too.
Nothing wrong with men doing that at all.
Quote from: Mistwell;625260Prussian Polish, Prussian German, Prussian Lithuanian or Latvian or Estonian? Prussian Ukrainian? What sort of Prussian?
Hmmm .... Prussia still exists?
Wonder how many Kaliningrad or Gdansk natives these days would consider themselves "Prussian".
Quote from: VectorSigma;625339I will issue an immediate 'halt' order to the Ray Lewis Stab-o-Tron 3000 Mandroid I put on a boat to Germany yesterday.
Now, now, let's not be hasty. That might be a good resource to have in an advance position, if you know what I mean.
Quote from: Endless Flight;625350If my wife suddenly had a raise to account for my income, I'd volunteer to be a stay-at-home dad and take our daughter to school, do all the laundry, go to the grocery store, clean the house, etc. etc. She knows it too.
Nothing wrong with men doing that at all.
Yeah, instead of doing a fulltime job and then coming home to the honey-do list, you just come up with the honey-do list yourself. You'd save time and live a decade longer.
Just registered to delurk on this thread.
I'm one of the DM backers and I am disappointed with how things have turned out. In order of preference what I wish would occur would be:
1. James finishes his commitments in a timely manner. Not 6 months to a year from now. I suppose he could resurface tomorrow, but at this point I don't have any real hope that James is ever going to finish DM.
2. James returns the money back to Autarch and releases the IP to Autarch so that they could finish the project.
What really sticks in my craw is the idea that James will get to keep the money without fulfilling his commitments. I find it more important that James not be allowed to keep the money than for me to "be made whole" for what I put into the Kickstarter.
In fact I'd be willing to spend some more money on a lawsuit even if it was unlikely for me to recover my original pledge. Maybe the most that happens is that a lien gets put against James' assets that he never pays off. Maybe he declares bankruptcy and he still doesn't pay back the money. However, at least he has to deal with those consequences for not fulfilling his commitments. If nothing else maybe a lawsuit would cause him to resurface at least in some manner.
Some may call the above throwing good money after bad, but I'd rather spend some additional money and make the effort than just let James pocket the money.
I'm not so much interested in getting a refund just for me, but seeing all of the money returned to either Autarch so that they can finish the project, or the backers as a whole.
I don't suppose there's a way to do something like a Kickstarter to raise funds to file suit against James? Heck, if he continues his current behavior and stays hidden we might win by default.
(FYI, if I don't reply for a while it's because I'm very busy with work. However, be assured I won't disappear for months at a time like James has.)
Ironic thing is that most folks in the RPG community are so generous, that if only he'd posted a couple of plausible updates, he could still be stringing things along now with much less loss of good will.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;625395Ironic thing is that most folks in the RPG community are so generous, that if only he'd posted a couple of plausible updates, he could still be stringing things along now with much less loss of good will.
(http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20130205.gif)
Quote from: Endless Flight;625350If my wife suddenly had a raise to account for my income, I'd volunteer to be a stay-at-home dad and take our daughter to school, do all the laundry, go to the grocery store, clean the house, etc. etc. She knows it too.
Nothing wrong with men doing that at all.
I agree.
But you'd have TONS of things to do and be most likely exhausted. And you would feel bad if you spent the time rather on the net blogging and pretending to be an auteur of gygaxian proportions!
All stay-at-home-wifes or husbands whom I know have LESS time for self-fulfillment and small businesses on the side!
ADD: And you would most likely NOT endanger the single income via creating debts and obligations in the 50k range, would you?
No RESPONSIBILITY towards dependants has many faces. Pursueing your hobby in that time is not responsible! It is a slap in the face of all hard working stay-at-home people, be they man, women or anything in between. Especially if it financially creates obligations.
ADD2: And not communicating with his dream-job-partners is also super irresponsible.
QuoteEven if we had the IP and published "a" Dwimmermount, Backers could (in theory) sue us because what we published wouldn't "James Mal's Dwimmermount".
Quote from: Votan;625176Given a draft of the material exists, I think that would have been an exceedingly hard suit as the line between editing it and completing it is very grey.
The problem is, this is a creative endeavor, and it's not the same as a regular good like a car that has a standards expectation. Creative works would be much harder to deal with. Many of the people were wanting James M.'s work, and having somebody else finish it might go against what they expected from the Kickstarter.
I didn't back this Kickstarter, but if I was offered a choice on somebody else completing the work, or either getting my money back, or waiting several months or even a year or two, I'd choose the latter. I follow creators and having somebody else finish it would feel wrong to me.
QuoteI'm not so much interested in getting a refund just for me, but seeing all of the money returned to either Autarch so that they can finish the project, or the backers as a whole.
I think the key thing is Autarch, in the backer updates, has apparently polled the audience and the majority feel okay in waiting, based on this public post:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount/posts/392668
I think if more and more time goes by without any communication from James, a new survey would reflect dissatisfaction, but it seems they are proceeding in the best way that will satisfy the majority of the backers, so I think before an individual backer wants to do things "on behalf of the group". the majority should rule.
Don't get me wrong--James lack of even communicating with Autarch is rather troubling, and I suspect if he doesn't correct this soon he's going to have a lot of lost respect--more than what's been lost already. I'm still not willing to state though that it's a case of him "taking the money and running".
Quote from: CRKrueger;625373Yeah, instead of doing a fulltime job and then coming home to the honey-do list, you just come up with the honey-do list yourself. You'd save time and live a decade longer.
Exactly! Plus I always wanted to be self-employed and can't afford to own a business yet. :D
Quote from: Settembrini;625420I agree.
But you'd have TONS of things to do and be most likely exhausted. And you would feel bad if you spent the time rather on the net blogging and pretending to be an auteur of gygaxian proportions!
All stay-at-home-wifes or husbands whom I know have LESS time for self-fulfillment and small businesses on the side!
ADD: And you would most likely NOT endanger the single income via creating debts and obligations in the 50k range, would you?
No RESPONSIBILITY towards dependants has many faces. Pursueing your hobby in that time is not responsible! It is a slap in the face of all hard working stay-at-home people, be they man, women or anything in between. Especially if it financially creates obligations.
ADD2: And not communicating with his dream-job-partners is also super irresponsible.
I don't think we need to conflate the problems with dwimmermount with other stay at home parents. Plenty of people can stay at home with their children, have a small business on the side and participate in a hobby. The problem here is Jame's hadn't given what he was paid to create. People gave him money, expecting that to fund a product. All this other stuff you are going on about just isn't relevant.
Quote from: amacris;624887Tavis created a budget for James detailing the costs for art, layout, design, and printing. It was highly detailed. Tavis writes grant proposals for a living, so he is very meticulous. He could quote you the cost per unit of the maps, the shipping & handling fees on the softcover art books, etc. There is/was a plan for every dollar.
Thanks for all the clarifications, Alex. One thing I can add here is that one cost factored in was James' work as the writer, which we estimated at about the cents-per-word that he and I have sometimes made as freelancers for WotC. Those are the best rates in the business as far as I know, but on the minus side more work is involved than writing a similar number of words for Wizards since with them you generally get to turn over all further editing and development to someone else once you meet your word count. Having a budget for the project's writer/developer based on their cents-per-word is what I meant when I said that the Kickstarter supported James' time. That's a term of art in the kind of grant writing I do in my day job, and so familiar to me that I forget it isn't plain English.
This is getting into Redbrick territory - ie, designers personal lives being discussed in lieu of actual points.
Wmarshall, welcome to the scumpits!
Instead of wasting your money in a lawsuit against Grogtardia, spend the cash on a completed OSR goodie that catches your interest. That would be a win-win.
If you haven't checked out Carcosa, The Dungeon Alphabet or Vornheim, I highly recommend all three over anything promised by the Grogtard.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;625395Ironic thing is that most folks in the RPG community are so generous, that if only he'd posted a couple of plausible updates, he could still be stringing things along now with much less loss of good will.
So freaking true. Important lesson for all publishers.
Quote from: J Arcane;625397**Awesome Comic**
That was genius! Thank you.
Quote from: Endless Flight;625439Exactly! Plus I always wanted to be self-employed and can't afford to own a business yet. :D
I suggest reading this article:
http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2013/01/10-reasons-why-you-have-to-quit-your-job-this-year/
Quote from: JRT;625438The problem is, this is a creative endeavor, and it's not the same as a regular good like a car that has a standards expectation. Creative works would be much harder to deal with. Many of the people were wanting James M.'s work, and having somebody else finish it might go against what they expected from the Kickstarter.
I didn't back this Kickstarter, but if I was offered a choice on somebody else completing the work, or either getting my money back, or waiting several months or even a year or two, I'd choose the latter. I follow creators and having somebody else finish it would feel wrong to me.
I think the key thing is Autarch, in the backer updates, has apparently polled the audience and the majority feel okay in waiting, based on this public post:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount/posts/392668
I think if more and more time goes by without any communication from James, a new survey would reflect dissatisfaction, but it seems they are proceeding in the best way that will satisfy the majority of the backers, so I think before an individual backer wants to do things "on behalf of the group". the majority should rule.
Don't get me wrong--James lack of even communicating with Autarch is rather troubling, and I suspect if he doesn't correct this soon he's going to have a lot of lost respect--more than what's been lost already. I'm still not willing to state though that it's a case of him "taking the money and running".
My intention isn't to necessarily do things completely on my own, but to my mind it is coming time to consider taking some kind of action. A conversation amongst the backers might be warranted soon.
As far as any respect James has left to lose I don't think he has any, at least no longer in my eyes. I enjoyed his blog, and I don't care if anyone thinks me a loser for that. However, I wouldn't call his behavior "rather troubling". For how he's left Autarch to twist in the wind for almost 3 months so far I'd call his behavior disgusting.
Quote from: Spinachcat;625717Wmarshall, welcome to the scumpits!
Instead of wasting your money in a lawsuit against Grogtardia, spend the cash on a completed OSR goodie that catches your interest. That would be a win-win.
If you haven't checked out Carcosa, The Dungeon Alphabet or Vornheim, I highly recommend all three over anything promised by the Grogtard.
I already have all three of your recommendations (All very good in my opinion). For myself, even if I didn't already have your recommendations I wouldn't consider following your advice a win-win. To me it'd be more like buying some liquor to drown my sorrows. How would it be a win-win? If one of the "wins" is my spending additional money to get some cool product, what is the other "win"? Would that be James getting to keep the KS money while failing to meet his commitments and putting Autarch's reputation at risk? Doesn't seem to be a "win" to me, unless your James possibly.
I have a little bit of money to burn, and if I spent it on a lawsuit I have a very, very low bar to meet to where I would not consider it a waste.
• If it by some miracle causes him to get motivated to meet his commitments = success.
• If it causes James to give the money back to Autarch and allows them to use the IP to publish Dwimmermount = success.
• If it results in a lien against his assets or bankruptcy (or some kind of financial consequence) for James so that he does not profit from the KS while failing to meet his commitments = success.
• If it causes James distressed bowel movements for a decent amount of time because he's having to deal with a lawsuit = success.
Like I said, I have a low bar for what I would consider a success, but I get to set that bar where I like.
What's a waste and failure to me is allowing James to walk away from his commitments with the KS money in hand, and the backers taking it on the chin like some kind of sad sap. It would be some bizarre case of Gamer Stockholm Syndrome.
I'm kind of surprised that Autarch isn't at least considering legal action themselves. Their contract with James is not being met. Their reputation is being put at risk, which in turn could hinder their future Kickstarters. Maybe they are, but aren't disclosing this info. They've described themselves as "Lawful Good", and I'm willing to take them at their word, but I'd think that at some point they'd need to realize their responsibility to the backers over any sense of collegiality they may have for James. James certainly hasn't been collegial to Autarch.
I'm not a lawyer, and maybe there is truly nothing to be done, but I think I'll at least start to investigate the options. If the backers put up 10% of what they pledged maybe that would be enough to get the ball rolling, and I'm willing to put up more than my original pledge. Yes, I can be that ornery.
A Dwimmermount Lawsuit kickstarter... How meta would that be!
Quote from: wmarshal;625748To me it'd be more like buying some liquor to drown my sorrows. How would it be a win-win?
If you buy some fine artisan liquor, you win by enjoying their excellent liquor and the artisan distillery wins because you patronized them instead of a megacorp. It becomes money well spent instead good money pissed away after bad money.
Quote from: wmarshal;625748I'm kind of surprised that Autarch isn't at least considering legal action themselves.
Legal action is the bane of small business. It's an effective intimidation tool for big business, but lawsuits are a major time suck and money suck for small business.
Also, threat of legal action + effective negotiation is far more effective at creating settlements. Lawsuits are only a stick, but negotiation can use both carrots and sticks.
Quote from: wmarshal;625748and I'm willing to put up more than my original pledge. Yes, I can be that ornery.
I respect revenge, but I hope you don't confuse it with justice.
There are plenty of gamer attorneys. I would not be surprised there is one among the Dwimmermount backers and maybe you can get them to take the case on a percentage. Maybe even pro boner.
Yeah I know its pro bono, but I get wood when I think of lawyers working for free. And then I trade that wood for sheep. Yeah baby yeah.
I've been paying attention to this thread off and on; I know you guys are pretty much all talk, but remember James M is a human being. He's posted on G+ about his father, and during a time like this it doesn't seem like fair play to be talking about suing the poor guy. I know this is the internet, and compassion doesn't exist on the internet, but think for a second about how you would feel in his place if you came across this thread.
He should have been more communicative with Autarch and his backers, but that's not a good enough reason to kick him while he's down.
I don't mean to be a jerk, but losing parents is part of life. It happens to pretty much everyone (well, not orphans, obviously). It sucks. A lot. But it doesn't mean you get a free pass to drop all your problems and responsibilities.
I would be much more sympathetic if it was one of his kids that was ill.
But on the flip side, isn't he in Canada? I don't see how a lawsuit would even be plausible, since I think Autarch is in North Carolina. Yeah, looking at the contract they posted, they are.
Actually, looking at that again make me wonder if there isn't another contract. Section 5 is about Publication. It says that publication isn't part of this agreement, but then on the very next line, it says that if funded, Autarch will publish and distribute the initial release. A little confusing.
Quote from: JeremyR;625763I don't mean to be a jerk, but losing parents is part of life. It happens to pretty much everyone (well, not orphans, obviously). It sucks. A lot. But it doesn't mean you get a free pass to drop all your problems and responsibilities.
Sure, it doesn't give him a free pass, but it does mean that when people talk about suing him while he goes through that situation, they are behaving in a very inconsiderate and mean-spirited fashion and should take a long, hard look at themselves.
Quote from: noisms;625764Sure, it doesn't give him a free pass, but it does mean that when people talk about suing him while he goes through that situation, they are behaving in a very inconsiderate and mean-spirited fashion and should take a long, hard look at themselves.
It's been 3 months. Time enough to get your act together.
Quote from: zarathustra;625769It's been 3 months. Time enough to get your act together.
3 months since what?
I'm not excusing his behaviour; I'm saying maybe it's a best idea to save the criticism and the talking out of arses about legal action until a more appropriate time and set of circumstances?
Quote from: noisms;6257703 months since what?
I'm not excusing his behaviour; I'm saying maybe it's a best idea to save the criticism and the talking out of arses about legal action until a more appropriate time and set of circumstances?
3 months since he began ignoring and cut contact with with Autarch and his family crisis occurred/escalated.
Quote from: noisms;625762I've been paying attention to this thread off and on; I know you guys are pretty much all talk, but remember James M is a human being. He's posted on G+ about his father, and during a time like this it doesn't seem like fair play to be talking about suing the poor guy. I know this is the internet, and compassion doesn't exist on the internet, but think for a second about how you would feel in his place if you came across this thread.
He should have been more communicative with Autarch and his backers, but that's not a good enough reason to kick him while he's down.
Communication is the key for getting any sympathy. Real life happens to us all but when you are sitting on 50K of others people's money taking the small amount of time required to update those people on what is happening is the very least thing to do to maintain goodwill.
In the absence of actual information it is natural for speculation to veer toward the very worst of possibilities. For such a prolific blogger, a paragraph or two of explanation to Autarch at least, if not the backers isn't asking for the moon.
If the guy won't even be bothered to tell his business partners why he isn't a crook then he deserves no compassion.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;625785If the guy won't even be bothered to tell his business partners why he isn't a crook then he deserves no compassion.
The milk of human kindness: alive and well on therpgsite.com.
Quote from: noisms;625787The milk of human kindness: alive and well on therpgsite.com.
Speak up and ask for kindness and you may receive it. Remain silent and suffer the slings and arrows of speculation.
Quote from: noisms;625787The milk of human kindness: alive and well on therpgsite.com.
You have a point. It's a bit of a finger-wagging, shame on you point, but a valid one nonetheless.
Whenever I see nerds on the Internet talking about suing people, I feel safe in assuming that they are talking out of their asses. That also goes for nerds who also happen to be lawyers as well because they are almost never specialized in the area of law that the bandied-about suit entails.
That said, it is notable in James M's update about his father that he doesn't express any apologies for going silent or derailing the project he took money for. He also still hasn't contacted his business partners even though they've been doing their best to cover his ass. And he still hasn't processed any of the refunds people have asked for since he disappeared. The best claim he makes is that he hopes to shake himself out of his torpor and get back to work...someday.
It becomes harder and harder to be sympathetic when there is no evidence that the milk of human kindness runs both ways. Sympathy is reciprocal and deeply dependent on our expectations of behavior that we can actually sympathize with.
Quote from: JeremyR;625763Actually, looking at that again make me wonder if there isn't another contract. Section 5 is about Publication. It says that publication isn't part of this agreement, but then on the very next line, it says that if funded, Autarch will publish and distribute the initial release. A little confusing.
It says that if funded Autarch and JM will negotiate for terms of publishing. It's an "agree to agree" clause, which isn't very powerful. In any event we hadn't negotiated and signed that one so it's moot.
Quote from: misterguignol;625792You have a point. It's a bit of a finger-wagging, shame on you point, but a valid one nonetheless.
Whenever I see nerds on the Internet talking about suing people, I feel safe in assuming that they are talking out of their asses. That also goes for nerds who also happen to be lawyers as well because they are almost never specialized in the area of law that the bandied-about suit entails.
That said, it is notable in James M's update about his father that he doesn't express any apologies for going silent or derailing the project he took money for. He also still hasn't contacted his business partners even though they've been doing their best to cover his ass. And he still hasn't processed any of the refunds people have asked for since he disappeared. The best claim he makes is that he hopes to shake himself out of his torpor and get back to work...someday.
It becomes harder and harder to be sympathetic when there is no evidence that the milk of human kindness runs both ways. Sympathy is reciprocal and deeply dependent on our expectations of behavior that we can actually sympathize with.
I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but it just doesn't really sit right with me to kick somebody when he's down (and judging from his recent G+ post, he clearly is down). There's a time and a place, etc.
I totally take your point, though: nerds talking about suing people is a bit like pigs talking about being able to fly.
Apparently Maliszewski posted to G+ today (http://lordgwydion.blogspot.com/2013/02/james-m-speaks.html).
Not a word about his responsibilities.
Quote from: misterguignol;625792Whenever I see nerds on the Internet talking about suing people, I feel safe in assuming that they are talking out of their asses. That also goes for nerds who also happen to be lawyers as well because they are almost never specialized in the area of law that the bandied-about suit entails.
Definitely.
The proper way of dealing with real legal issues, is face to face in person with one's own attorney.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;625823Apparently Maliszewski posted to G+ today (http://lordgwydion.blogspot.com/2013/02/james-m-speaks.html).
Not a word about his responsibilities.
It sorta reads like the type of "death in the family" monologs I use to hear all the time from persistent boozers, when I use to work as a bartender. (No idea if JamesM is a boozer type).
Quote from: noisms;625764Sure, it doesn't give him a free pass, but it does mean that when people talk about suing him while he goes through that situation, they are behaving in a very inconsiderate and mean-spirited fashion and should take a long, hard look at themselves.
I appreciate your voice of compassion in the midst of the riotous pitchforks and torches. It needs to be said, even if few hear it.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;625823Apparently Maliszewski posted to G+ today (http://lordgwydion.blogspot.com/2013/02/james-m-speaks.html).
Not a word about his responsibilities.
Indeed. If anything, there's more talk of "unplugging" and resurfacing "when I feel I am in the frame of mind to do so."
I sympathize with the guy - because I dealt with a very similar situation in early 2011. But, unfortunately, his comments (or perhaps the lack of some specific comments) are going to do nothing but rile up his opponents, and disgruntled customers, even more. RWS, Setembrinni, and YDIS will use this as more fuel for the fire.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;625823Apparently Maliszewski posted to G+ today (http://lordgwydion.blogspot.com/2013/02/james-m-speaks.html).
Not a word about his responsibilities.
Thanks for that. In case it disappears:
James Maliszewski
6:18 AM - Limited
As some of you know, my father fell terribly ill in the early summer of last year, exacerbating a previous medical condition, and nearly died. Though he survived, his memory and intellect did not; he succumbed to alcohol-induced dementia. He does not know who he is or why he is in a nursing home. His prognosis then was not a positive one: he would likely live but the chances of his regaining his memory were slim to none. My family and I accepted this and tried to deal with it as best we could, which, as it turns out, wasn't very well. As the shock of the near-death emergency wore off, I convinced myself that, though my father's body was still alive, he was gone and that I'd dealt with that reality.
Shortly before Christmas, I learned that my father's physical condition had worsened. He was refusing to eat or drink, was barely coherent, and spent most of his time sleeping. I was told to expect him to die soon, so I rushed to see him before he did so. I was not prepared for what I saw. For a number of reasons, I had not seen my father face to face in several years and, when I did so, he was barely recognizable to me. At that moment, I realized that I had not in fact dealt with my father's death, the imminent prospect of which, rattled me to a degree I cannot begin to articulate.
Since Christmas, my father's condition has fluctuated wildly, improving just enough that he remains alive, but not enough that he no longer in danger of death. Needless to say, this has done me little good. My father and I had what could best be called a "complex" relationship and that, coupled with both the suddenness of his decline and the uncertainty about his immediate future, has taken its toll on me, as those closest to me can attest. I find it extremely difficult to do anything during these past weeks other than simple daily tasks. This note is the first time I've written anything at my computer since late last year and I'm doing it only because I've been informed that at least a few of you are concerned about my absence.
I'm doing my best to shake myself from this torpor, but it's not an easy process. My father remains in danger of death and that weighs heavily on my thoughts. Finding the desire to do anything during this time is difficult for me. I know I will find it again, but, until I do, I see little point in forcing it. Better that I unplug and stick close to family and those friends who truly understand and empathize with my situation.
In the meantime, know that I am alive, if not well, and will poke my head above water again when I feel I am in the frame of mind to do so. Prayers and well wishes are much appreciated. If I have ever done anything to earn your charity and compassion, now is the time I need them most.
More generally, I strongly suspect if Dwimmermount was never a Kickstarter (or didn't get funded), nobody would give a damn or even be talking about James M's personal issues.
In such an alternate scenario, JamesM would just be another online "semi-celebrity" that disappeared for a period of time. (Not even an online version of "Howard Hughes").
For fucks sakes, we're talking about folks being out of pocket $50 for an imaginary dungeon.
If I were James resurfacing, I think I would be talking privately to Autarch about how to handle the Dwimmermount fiasco before saying anything in public about it. So I'm going to withhold judgement until I hear from Tavis and Autarch that James still hasn't contacted them.
Quote from: Planet Algol;625839For fucks sakes, we're talking about folks being out of pocket $50 for an imaginary dungeon.
If you send me $50 I will send you twice as much nothing. GUARANTEED.
Quote from: Planet Algol;625839For fucks sakes, we're talking about folks being out of pocket $50 for an imaginary dungeon.
Unfortunately human behavior becomes very angry and vicious, when money is directly involved. (Even in relatively small amounts).
Out of curiosity, for his remaining supporters, do you believe that James really has any burning desire to do this product any longer? That it is this life situation that is the real problem?
I don't believe so. I think this life situation exists, and that it is a terrible thing, but that this project would be plagued with problems if James' father were hale, hearty, and had a great relationship with his son.
James stopped talking to Autarch on November 19. His posts to G+ were quite public about his distaste of "writing for others" long before his father's situation changed just before Christmas.
The problem here isn't James' father's health. It is that this dungeon is considered by James to be "writing for others". And that characterization would apply, regardless. This is not truly an "If not for..." situation.
Quote from: misterguignol;625843If you send me $50 I will send you twice as much nothing. GUARANTEED.
Do you accept PayPal?
Compared to what people deal with in the custom knife world, the dwimmermount fiasco is nothing.
Quote from: Planet Algol;625848Compared to what people deal with in the custom knife world, the dwimmermount fiasco is nothing.
Even worse, is the financial markets. (ie. Bernie Madoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Madoff), etc ...).
Quote from: Planet Algol;625848Compared to what people deal with in the custom knife world, the dwimmermount fiasco is nothing.
Custom. Knife. World.
Quote from: EOTB;625845Out of curiosity, for his remaining supporters, do you believe that James really has any burning desire to do this product any longer? That it is this life situation that is the real problem?
I have no horse in this race as I didn't back this project but one backer adds another voice to this fiasco, a more mellow, laid-back, and
constructive one, FrDave of Blood of Prokopius:
Dwimmermount, 3x5 Geomorphs, The Tome of Adventure Design & Boring Adventure Design (http://bloodofprokopius.blogspot.de/2013/02/dwimmermount-3x5-geomorphs-tome-of.html)
A blog post that gives you this can't be bad:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vF_K32GsAnE/URK71ftiH-I/AAAAAAAAAuQ/i7jThKS7qL0/s320/BlasphemousBridge.png)
Quote from: ggroy;625844Unfortunately human behavior becomes very angry and vicious, when money is directly involved. (Even in relatively small amounts).
50k is not really a small amount of money, that it came from a ramge of backers who each paid in a small amount seems immaterial to me.
Quote from: Gib;62586250k is not really a small amount of money, that it came from a ramge of backers who each paid in a small amount seems immaterial to me.
The problem I find with Kickstarter is that a lot of people don't seem to understand that, whatever the final total is, it isn't
their 50k. There's a weird entitlement/lack-of-perspective that kicks in, where people go on the rampage because they act like that 50k came out of their, and only their, pockets.
If the producer fufills their end of the deal it will never be an issue. People fuck up, and fucked up shit follows.
Quote from: Mistwell;625831Thanks for that. In case it disappears:
James Maliszewski
6:18 AM - Limited
As some of you know, my father fell terribly ill in the early summer of last year, exacerbating a previous medical condition, and nearly died. Though he survived, his memory and intellect did not; he succumbed to alcohol-induced dementia. He does not know who he is or why he is in a nursing home. His prognosis then was not a positive one: he would likely live but the chances of his regaining his memory were slim to none. My family and I accepted this and tried to deal with it as best we could, which, as it turns out, wasn't very well. As the shock of the near-death emergency wore off, I convinced myself that, though my father's body was still alive, he was gone and that I'd dealt with that reality.
Shortly before Christmas, I learned that my father's physical condition had worsened. He was refusing to eat or drink, was barely coherent, and spent most of his time sleeping. I was told to expect him to die soon, so I rushed to see him before he did so. I was not prepared for what I saw. For a number of reasons, I had not seen my father face to face in several years and, when I did so, he was barely recognizable to me. At that moment, I realized that I had not in fact dealt with my father's death, the imminent prospect of which, rattled me to a degree I cannot begin to articulate.
Since Christmas, my father's condition has fluctuated wildly, improving just enough that he remains alive, but not enough that he no longer in danger of death. Needless to say, this has done me little good. My father and I had what could best be called a "complex" relationship and that, coupled with both the suddenness of his decline and the uncertainty about his immediate future, has taken its toll on me, as those closest to me can attest. I find it extremely difficult to do anything during these past weeks other than simple daily tasks. This note is the first time I've written anything at my computer since late last year and I'm doing it only because I've been informed that at least a few of you are concerned about my absence.
I'm doing my best to shake myself from this torpor, but it's not an easy process. My father remains in danger of death and that weighs heavily on my thoughts. Finding the desire to do anything during this time is difficult for me. I know I will find it again, but, until I do, I see little point in forcing it. Better that I unplug and stick close to family and those friends who truly understand and empathize with my situation.
In the meantime, know that I am alive, if not well, and will poke my head above water again when I feel I am in the frame of mind to do so. Prayers and well wishes are much appreciated. If I have ever done anything to earn your charity and compassion, now is the time I need them most.
Not included in that: "I'm sorry", or "I know I have obligations, and I'm sorry I'm not meeting them". Or some note of acknowledgment of responsibility. It would have been nice to hear, but some communication is better than none.
Quote from: Planet Algol;625848Compared to what people deal with in the custom knife world, the dwimmermount fiasco is nothing.
I can't be sure if you're serious or not, but as a frequent attendee of gun & knife shows, I can assure you this
is actually the case.
Quote from: misterguignol;625852Custom. Knife. World.
People spend their disposable income on the darndest things!
Knives are no cooler nor no lamer than dungeons....
(I'm talking bushcraft knives, not killing knives)
Quote from: Zachary The First;625878Not included in that: "I'm sorry", "I know I have obligations, and I'm sorry I'm not meeting them". Or some note of acknowledgment of responsibility. It would have been nice to hear, but some communication is better than none.
I can completely understand why, in the state he portrays himself as being in, James might have forgotten that. In really bleak times it's very easy to go into a full-on survival mode where you're only capable of thinking of yourself.
At the same time, yeah, it's a
little tactless.
Quote from: Warthur;625886I can completely understand why, in the state he portrays himself as being in, James might have forgotten that. In really bleak times it's very easy to go into a full-on survival mode where you're only capable of thinking of yourself.
At the same time, yeah, it's a little tactless.
Yeah, and I'm probably just picking the damn thing apart. I'll just repeat: what a mess.
Quote from: Planet Algol;625884People spend their disposable income on the darndest things!
Knives are no cooler nor no lamer than dungeons....
Oh, I'm sure. I just had no idea that such a thing existed.
Quote from: Zachary The First;625878Not included in that: "I'm sorry", or "I know I have obligations, and I'm sorry I'm not meeting them". Or some note of acknowledgment of responsibility.
Apparently acknowledging responsibility isn't a "simple daily task."
Quote from: Zachary The First;625878It would have been nice to hear, but some communication is better than none.
I'd prefer silence to such a self-serving appeal for sympathy.
Quote from: Planet Algol;625884People spend their disposable income on the darndest things!
Knives are no cooler nor no lamer than dungeons....
One person's "trash", is another person's "treasure".
I mentioned it before, but this latest post seems like textbook Major Depression. Sounds like he didn't even realize there was a hubbub about him dropping off the radar.
Remember in The Hobbit when Bilbo and Gandalf are talking, Bilbo agrees to leave the ring to Frodo, they bs about old times, then as Bilbo walks out Gandalf reminds Bilbo he still hasn't left the Ring? A psychiatrist friend told me once that's exactly how mental defense mechanisms can act. The mind chops out thoughts that can bring stress in self-defense just like it can edit out entire episodes from memory.
Yeah it seems selfish to ask for patience and compassion when you seem unwilling to even acknowledge others, but again, that's textbook behavior when mental self-defense mechanisms are engaged.
Imagine instead he got hit in the head and has temporary retrograde amnesia, then consider how much you wanna go off on him, it's effectively not all that different.
For example, my parents chucked out a large portion of my old comic book collection.
I was really pissed at the time when I first found out about it, but eventually got over it.
I'm not really on either side of this but based on what I've read I can't think that the torch and pitchfork crowd are helping any... if anything I'd think they're giving cause to raise the barricade.
Quote from: Simlasa;625901I'm not really on either side of this but based on what I've read I can't think that the torch and pitchfork crowd are helping any... if anything I'd think they're giving cause to raise the barricade.
Quote from: JmalThis note is the first time I've written anything at my computer since late last year and I'm doing it only because I've been informed that at least a few of you are concerned about my absence.
He didn't even know people were wondering.
Quote from: Simlasa;625901I'm not really on either side of this but based on what I've read I can't think that the torch and pitchfork crowd are helping any... if anything I'd think they're giving cause to raise the barricade.
Yes, the customers are certainly the ones at fault here.
Apparently one kickstarter has already been sued.
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2013/01/crowdfunding-serious-business-kickstarter/
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2013/01/kickstarter-lawsuit-neil-singh/
I didn't catch how much of the original $35,000 was recovered, but from what resulted it'd meet my definition of success.
According to some maybe I am mean, but I've looked at myself in the mirror and I'm happy with who I am. I would state that while James may be in a "torpor" as he put it on G+, I have no desire to see James physically hurt himself or others. In that regard if he's truly in a dark place he should probably see a mental health professional. That is pure speculation, but the amount of info we do have is minimal in this regard. Some earlier in this thread have suggested (maybe joked in extremely poor taste) physical harm for James. I have NO desire for that to happen to him.
However, I'm not going to stop researching what options there are available. The only thing that would make me stop pursuing the legal options would be when the commitments are fulfilled. Whatever personal issues he has, they cannot act as an indefinite excuse for delay. When a close family member dies one typically gets a few days off. If you work in the right environment maybe your employer can lighten your work load or otherwise do some small things to make your life easier for a while. If you work a blue-collar job on an assembly line your much less likely to get any such extra consideration. Millions of people go through this every year, and they don't get to dodge their commitments for months at a time.
James has gone almost 3 months without addressing Dwimmermount, and this is the second time he's gone silent. Yes, he just made a post on G+, but nothing in it makes me think he isn't about to go silent again.
As far as the content it seems to me that it's at least 95%+ done as far as James' work. Maybe Autarch can speak to what else they need from James in terms of content. If the content is done, and James wants to focus on his personal life then he could return those monies budgeted for publication to Autarch and give them permission to publish Dwimmermount. Then James wouldn't have this hanging over him, and I think any lawsuit would then be moot. If he spent that money on himself already rather than keeping it available for the publication of Dwimmermount then he has only himself to blame for any legal difficulties headed his way as a result of that decision.
This gets weirder and weirder. Does JM even remember that he received a $50K check from Autarch? If he's in as bad shape as he claims to be (and I have no reason to doubt that he is) he should send that money back to them and authorize them to release what they have (with whatever level of further development and production they see fit) and/or issue refunds to those who want them and wash his hands of the project. Because from the sound of things, it could be months (or years) before he even thinks about Dwimmermount again, much less actually doing any work on it, much less doing all the work of editing, hiring artists and layout people, dealing with printers, etc.
Quote from: wmarshal;625907However, I'm not going to stop researching what options there are available. The only thing that would make me stop pursuing the legal options would be when the commitments are fulfilled. Whatever personal issues he has, they cannot act as an indefinite excuse for delay.
I would suggest you consider what the majority of the backers want though. If, say, only 10% of the backers are upset and 90% are willing to wait up to, say, 2 years, then I think it would be more constructive for you to just ask for a personal refund. You shouldn't put it upon yourself to seek justice "for the group" if you are in the minority.
In fact, I'll bet if you were serious enough to sue, other backers could conceivably try to counter-sue or block your action, because they may not agree with what you would call "cure" for the offense. Creative arts are a lot harder to judge in terms of completion as opposed, to say, a computer or a car.
I'm a little disturbed by people who consider any of the backers who decide to continue on as "suffering from Gamer Stockholm Syndrome". From what I've seen from Kickstarter, and even with gaming products done outside of KS, late is usually the norm. It stands to reason that many of them want the completed project if they can get it as promised. And since many of them are fans of James, I think they are putting his welfare over their money spent.
Quote from: Gib;625904Yes, the customers are certainly the ones at fault here.
That's not my meaning at all, of course. I'm only thinking that people should consider how they'd like the whole affair to end and consider if their words are helping or hindering the likelihood of that outcome.
Some have crossed right over to revenge fantasies, while others are leaving room for it all to work out well in the end... and I'd think he'd be more likely to climb down out of his windmill if he doesn't have an angry mob at his door.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;625892I'd prefer silence to such a self-serving appeal for sympathy.
At least he wasn't asking for someone to send him a copy of an original woodgrain box.
Quote from: Simlasa;625916That's not my meaning at all, of course. I'm only thinking that people should consider how they'd like the whole affair to end and consider if their words are helping or hindering the likelihood of that outcome.
Some have crossed right over to revenge fantasies, while others are leaving room for it all to work out well in the end... and I'd think he'd be more likely to climb down out of his windmill if he doesn't have an angry mob at his door.
Possibly, but he has received enough money to piss everyone off; however, at the same time, no single person gave him all that much. This leaves him as the only person with any real investment in the outcome... BUT he still has everyone's beer money. So there is no real motivation, as far as I can tell, to stop bitching. The stakes are low, but the beef is legitimate, and no one is likley to lose sight of the fact that he has 50k in other people's money.
Quote from: JRT;625915I would suggest you consider what the majority of the backers want though. If, say, only 10% of the backers are upset and 90% are willing to wait up to, say, 2 years, then I think it would be more constructive for you to just ask for a personal refund. You shouldn't put it upon yourself to seek justice "for the group" if you are in the minority.
Let's not resort to what amounts to peer pressure here. If one person feels like he was taken advantage of, it doesn't matter if a million others are smiling along. That person has a grievance. Address it, get to the bottom of it.
Quote from: JRT;625915Creative arts are a lot harder to judge in terms of completion as opposed, to say, a computer or a car.
Maybe the Silmarillion or the Sistine Chapel will never "really" be finished, but if someone is promised a book, a PDF, rubberized play mats or whatever, I think it's trivial to judge if that promise has been completely fulfilled or not.
Quote from: JRT;625915I'm a little disturbed by people who consider any of the backers who decide to continue on as "suffering from Gamer Stockholm Syndrome".
I'm a little disturbed myself by people who go out of their way to dismiss the backers' grievances or dissuade them from seeking avenues of redress, so let's call it even.
Yes, Grognardia has had a tough year. Being creative and sensitive is hard and shit happens. Sure, I've seen "Lust for Life." The saints forgive endlessly. But most gamers aren't saints. They're nominally adults with an adult grasp of what it takes to earn a dollar, where art blurs into commerce and where their commercial partners' responsibilities begin. Or am I wrong?
Quote from: econobus;625933I'm a little disturbed myself by people who go out of their way to dismiss the backers' grievances or dissuade them from seeking avenues of redress, so let's call it even.
But I didn't do that. The problem is, there is a difference with a single fan asking for and getting his or her money back, and taking an action that forces everybody to be involved, which is what a lawsuit does.
And it's more aimed at the GSS "label"--it's the typical BS like "fatbeard", 3tard/4on, or any other argument that tries to dismiss or insult the other side. I don't dismiss that some backers might have grievances, but don't dismiss the other's who don't and are willing to wait either.
This Kickstarter proves to me that you should never back one unless you are willing to lose your backing money and that you should think twice about backing a Kickstarter for someone who appears to have mental issues.
Quote from: jeff37923;625939you should think twice about backing a Kickstarter for someone who appears to have mental issues.
I already said I wasn't going to do one; leave me alone!
Quote from: wmarshal;625907As far as the content it seems to me that it's at least 95%+ done as far as James' work. Maybe Autarch can speak to what else they need from James in terms of content. If the content is done, and James wants to focus on his personal life then he could return those monies budgeted for publication to Autarch and give them permission to publish Dwimmermount. Then James wouldn't have this hanging over him, and I think any lawsuit would then be moot. If he spent that money on himself already rather than keeping it available for the publication of Dwimmermount then he has only himself to blame for any legal difficulties headed his way as a result of that decision.
In hindsight, perhaps Autarch should have opened up a separate new bank account which held the Dwimmermount kickstarter money (in part or in whole) that JamesM could make withdrawals from. That way, Autarch would have a way of watching what exact amounts of money JamesM was taking out over a period of time.
Quote from: Gib;625941I already said I wasn't going to do one; leave me alone!
....
(http://www.geekzenith.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpeg)
Quote from: ggroy;625942In hindsight, perhaps Autarch should have opened up a separate new bank account which held the Dwimmermount kickstarter money (in part or in whole) that JamesM could make withdrawals from. That way, Autarch would have a way of watching what exact amounts of money JamesM was taking out over a period of time.
That's pretty much the definition of Escrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escrow), which in hindsight is what should be done.
QuoteThis Kickstarter proves to me that you should never back one unless you are willing to lose your backing money and that you should think twice about backing a Kickstarter for someone who appears to have mental issues.
The former is always my philosophy.
However, there has really never been any indication James has had "mental issues". Depression can come on suddenly and acutely. Saying he has "mental issues" is one of the textbook definitions of Libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law#Defamation_per_se). So I really think people should back off of those opinions.
Quote from: JRT;625936I don't dismiss that some backers might have grievances, but don't dismiss the other's who don't and are willing to wait either.
Sorry. I saw you telling a guy who's thinking of suing to "consider what the majority of the backers went through...you shouldn't put it upon yourself to seek justice 'for the group' if you are in the minority" and must have read that as trying to dissuade him from considering all options.
I don't recall wmarshal talking up a class action but could be wrong. Framing his grievance against the public good creates an adversarial relationship that may not actually exist. I'm curious about what motivates that rhetorical move.
Now on your dislike for "the GSS 'label'" (I had to look it up, never seen it abbreviated), I think there's a kernel of truth in the mock diagnosis, kind of like how most of the icons I see around the game world skew toward facial hair and husky builds, fatbeards. Stereotypes take hold as experience provides support.
I do see plenty of "stockholm syndrome" among gamers in the sense that there's a desperate attempt to identify with the interests of someone else, in this case the industry pro instead of the kidnapper. The GSS sufferer will make enormous leaps of logic to justify and excuse the industry pro with whom he identifies: creative is hard, business is hard, we're all just hobbyists, feelings are hard, I would want to be treated in such a way, corporations are evil, this is a labor of love, KS is not a preorder, the majority of the backers seem happy, labels are cruel, it's only fifty dollars apiece, I want it to be good and am willing to wait as long as it takes.
And so on. And that's fine, really. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with defending a favorite industry pro. Just so people always know their options and aren't shouted down by the crowd of excuses when they speak up and say, "I'm not happy here."
Quote from: JRT;625948Saying he has "mental issues" is one of the textbook definitions of Libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law#Defamation_per_se). So I really think people should back off of those opinions.
I think people should back off the legal talk because they're blowing smoke out of their asses, but what can you do?
Quote from: JRT;625948Saying he has "mental issues"
nobody said that.
Quote from: misterguignol;625950I think people should back off the legal talk because they're blowing smoke out of their asses, but what can you do?
Kind of a Catch 22 in that if he isn't under extreme emotional distress now, where's the fucking product? And if it's true, it's not exactly textbook libel.
All I really know is that this is trending to be the second-biggest rpgsite thread in history in the next day or so. Clearly it's not a case of a few sour grapes who are jealous of Grognardia's success (forgot that one earlier) and are just trying to cause trouble.
This one is striking a pretty deep chord.
Quote from: econobus;625954Kind of a Catch 22 in that if he isn't under extreme emotional distress now, where's the fucking product? And if it's true, it's not exactly textbook libel.
All I really know is that this is trending to be the second-biggest rpgsite thread in history in the next day or so. Clearly it's not a case of a few sour grapes who are jealous of Grognardia's success (forgot that one earlier) and are just trying to cause trouble.
This one is striking a pretty deep chord.
Oh yeah, no mistake--I'm a backer who feels like he's not going to see a refund or a finished product at this point.
I just thinking people complaining that Jmal is being libeled should probably take it down a couple notches, you know?
This is a forum about elfgames, not a court of law. I doubt many lawyer would really be willing to do the paperwork to get something said here onto a docket.
Quote from: jeff37923;625939This Kickstarter proves to me that you should never back one unless you are willing to lose your backing money
Sorta like investing in the stock of a dotcom company back in the late 1990's. :rolleyes:
(Or for that matter, investing in any stocks in the first place over the last decade or so).
Quote from: JRT;625948However, there has really never been any indication James has had "mental issues". Depression can come on suddenly and acutely. Saying he has "mental issues" is one of the textbook definitions of Libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law#Defamation_per_se). So I really think people should back off of those opinions.
Quote from: misterguignol;625950I think people should back off the legal talk because they're blowing smoke out of their asses, but what can you do?
Quote from: ICFTI;625953nobody said that.
I said that. I stand by it as well.
From my own amateur fumblings with getting stuff assembled and printed, I have found that the "flakey artist" stereotype is a very real thing. The guy who is supremely talented, but can't get off his ass to do what you have paid him to do, even though he has spent your money for the job. To me, James M. is following that exact behavior and has demonstrated his unreliability.
Quote from: misterguignol;625950I think people should back off the legal talk because they're blowing smoke out of their asses, but what can you do?
Guess arm-chair law is a response to arm-chair psychologists.
Quote from: econobus;625949I don't recall wmarshal talking up a class action but could be wrong. Framing his grievance against the public good creates an adversarial relationship that may not actually exist. I'm curious about what motivates that rhetorical move.
Based on what he said, it seems like he's aiming for that. Normally, as an individual, he's allowed personal cure, which would be a personal refund of his cash. If he was given that, I doubt he'd have any cause to sue beyond that level.
QuoteThe GSS sufferer will make enormous leaps of logic to justify and excuse the industry pro with whom he identifies: creative is hard, business is hard, we're all just hobbyists, feelings are hard, I would want to be treated in such a way, corporations are evil, this is a labor of love, KS is not a preorder, the majority of the backers seem happy, labels are cruel, it's only fifty dollars apiece, I want it to be good and am willing to wait as long as it takes.
But the problem I have with the label is that it assumes that the backers have a problem with that dedication. Granted, I can see the extreme--but the other extreme is that every project now that's even a little late you could be dismissed like that.
Sadly, lateness is becoming par for the course. The comic book industry has given up the concept of "inventory stories" because readers would rather have their favorite artist and writer instead of a fill in artist or inventory story. And I think the RPG market is so small now that people are doing this as side jobs or one-man publishers, so even without the KS involvement, lateness is kind of a norm instead of an exception.
Quote from: econobus;625954This one is striking a pretty deep chord.
However, I suspect 90% of us are not backers and just being third parties, so we're interested in the debate for the debate, and not because we have a personal stake.
Quote from: misterguignol;625961I just thinking people complaining that Jmal is being libeled should probably take it down a couple notches, you know?
I think this is part of what makes the "stockholm" metaphor so compelling. At this point, the pattern goes:
1. Disaster at Dwimmermount, news at 11!
2. How dare you label Grognardia, he is an innocent man, a kind man for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Plus creative and innocent and kind.
3. Plus IRWS is an asshole.
4. Kickstarter is good, you're just doing it wrong.
5. Yes, Kickstarter is good. Hooray for gamers!
Quote from: misterguignol;625961This is a forum about elfgames, not a court of law. I doubt many lawyer would really be willing to do the paperwork to get something said here onto a docket.
I think we did that one like 40 pages ago. Somebody said it wasn't worth a class action at the time but more recently the antennae seem to be tingling again. And KS creators *are* getting sued into bankruptcy. That's a factor here now.
Quote from: jeff37923;625965I said that. I stand by it as well.
well, to be precise, you said "someone who appears to have mental issues" not "jmal has mental issues" which are two very different things.
Quote from: jeff37923;625965The guy who is supremely talented, but can't get off his ass to do what you have paid him to do, even though he has spent your money for the job. To me, James M. is following that exact behavior and has demonstrated his unreliability.
Well, it's been stated before that he's been reliable in the past. It's not like this is his first gig. This is kind of an anomaly. Although it seems the projects he starts he hasn't done a lot of finish when they are personal as opposed to paid.
I do think though that James has talked a little bit about the art and dismissed the business side of things in many of his writings, usually when talking about the ages of TSR--but one thing a lot of fans don't get is that it's the business discipline that keeps things together.
Quote from: jeff37923;625965I said that. I stand by it as well.
From my own amateur fumblings with getting stuff assembled and printed, I have found that the "flakey artist" stereotype is a very real thing. The guy who is supremely talented, but can't get off his ass to do what you have paid him to do, even though he has spent your money for the job. To me, James M. is following that exact behavior and has demonstrated his unreliability.
More generally, the same can be said of numerous other "artistic" types, such as: wannabe rock stars, unknown actors, struggling writers, etc ...
A huge element of narcissism seems to be a common personality trait of such individuals.
Quote from: JRT;625967[me on Gamer Stockholm Syndrome]
But the problem I have with the label is that it assumes that the backers have a problem with that dedication. Granted, I can see the extreme--but the other extreme is that every project now that's even a little late you could be dismissed like that.
How about this? Every time we see a backer with a grievance, we acknowledge that maybe they really have a grievance and hold off for a bit on protecting the creator. Let's get to the bottom of the grievance first.
Then maybe the claims of Gamer Stockholm Syndrome won't come up so often to bother you.
Quote from: JRT;625967Sadly, lateness is becoming par for the course. The comic book industry has given up the concept of "inventory stories" because readers would rather have their favorite artist and writer instead of a fill in artist or inventory story. And I think the RPG market is so small now that people are doing this as side jobs or one-man publishers, so even without the KS involvement, lateness is kind of a norm instead of an exception.
Again, let's try not universalizing this. Kickstarter campaigns deliver on time all the time. Are they somehow magical and immune to industry trends and macroeconomic factors?
It's always been a cottage industry. Why is this project making people so angry?
Quote from: JRT;625967However, I suspect 90% of us are not backers and just being third parties, so we're interested in the debate for the debate, and not because we have a personal stake.
Well, I am now a backer, so my opinion counts. How about you?
Don't know if I'm angry yet. Mostly sad.
Quote from: ICFTI;625970well, to be precise, you said "someone who appears to have mental issues" not "jmal has mental issues" which are two very different things.
Eh, quibbling at this point.
Quote from: econobus;625973It's always been a cottage industry. Why is this project making people so angry?
Well, the key issue is the lack of communication.
As far as non-backer involvement, I really suspect it's because James is a better known figure than a lot of "old-school" creators, and he's taken in a lot more money than they did. And he's a polarizing figure. So, I think more people are concerned about this than some guy they never heard of who failed.
That's kind of why this thread is so long...
Quote from: JRT;625978I really suspect it's because James is a better known figure than a lot of "old-school" creators, and he's taken in a lot more money than they did. And he's a polarizing figure. So, I think more people are concerned about this than some guy they never heard of who failed.
The more famous someone is, the more enticing of a target they are for criticism.
Quote from: JRT;625978Well, the key issue is the lack of communication.
I like this. This has nothing to do with the industry or when Jim Shooter stopped commissioning fill-in stories at Marvel. It's actually about us, Grognardia and Dwimmermount.
Gamers have a heartbreaking capacity to forgive as long as you keep them in the loop. Keep them feeling like they're part of the process, they will sign away all rights, wait years, literally snatch food out of their own children's mouths and give them to you in exchange for maybe a "playtesters" credit at the end.
That's just how it goes. Okay. Call it what you want.
Neglect them, and that special relationship can implode in some spectacular ways. And now it's happened and we have a chance to learn from it, so everyone can do better next time.
Doing better means not being content to blame Jim Shooter's inventory mandates or a shrinking hobby or the day job. Doing better means taking a hard look at the grievances and where they come from. You just did that. Thanks.
Quote from: JRT;625967Guess arm-chair law is a response to arm-chair psychologists.
The entire internet is a huge giant armchair. :D
Quote from: misterguignol;625961This is a forum about elfgames
The logo on the top left of the page tells me this is 'A forum for discussing roleplaying games', and you are currently posting in a subforum named 'Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Main Forum'.
I am afraid you will have to look for those 'elfgames' elsewhere.
Quote from: econobus;625968I think this is part of what makes the "stockholm" metaphor so compelling. At this point, the pattern goes:
1. Disaster at Dwimmermount, news at 11!
2. How dare you label Grognardia, he is an innocent man, a kind man for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Plus creative and innocent and kind.
3. Plus IRWS is an asshole.
4. Kickstarter is good, you're just doing it wrong.
5. Yes, Kickstarter is good. Hooray for gamers!
Exactly.
Quote from: melan;625985the logo on the top left of the page tells me this is 'a forum for discussing roleplaying games', and you are currently posting in a subforum named 'roleplaying games (rpgs) main forum'.
I am afraid you will have to look for those 'elfgames' elsewhere.
fuck! Where can i go to find a pure elfgame??
Your elfgames are a different hobby, stop trying to corrupt the purity of RPG.
Quote from: econobus;625982Doing better means not being content to blame Jim Shooter's inventory mandates or a shrinking hobby or the day job. Doing better means taking a hard look at the grievances and where they come from. You just did that. Thanks.
Inventory Stories didn't start with Jim Shooter for the record.
To be clear, Econobus, my discussion of lateness is meant to also explain why lateness is tolerated in other endeavors, and why the arts in general has more tolerance of this than your typical things you buy. And this is more aimed at a few people, like "I run with scissors", who thinks that any late Kickstarter is a crime against nature and that all their backers are demented.
To be honest, I don't excuse the increase in tardiness and I think it's actually lead to things getting worse for the industry. But I also don't think lateness is an artistic endeavor is akin to other things. I mentioned comics for a reason:
Going back to the original situation--if James "gave up" his copyright and another person finished it, in an attempt to meet the deadlines--would that be satisfactory to the backers. Is it just about the money or the promise? Is the creator important in the equation.
If Backer X fought to remove James from the creation, would Backer Y have a right to be upset because he'd rather wait for James to complete rather than have another person take it over?
That's where you have a grey area.
Quote from: ggroy;625984The entire internet is a huge giant armchair. :D
Truer words were never spoken....
Why is it that other prominent OSR crowdsource projects are running late (Raggi, Frog God Games, etc) and no-one is screaming blue murder?
Perhaps because the backers see frequent comms, apologies for delays and evidence of progress made? Possibly the comfort that these people acknowledge their responsibilities and are committed to seeing it through?
When was the last time James even directly addressed his backers (rather than hiding behing his patsy Autarch).
I put it that the bile and anger towards James are mostly down to some deep personality flaws he possesses rather than people's jealousy of his status as a prominent OSR blogger (which he no longer is in any case).
The fact that Dwimmermount appears to be lackluster at best doesn't help either. If the stuff in the draft was awesome I think there would be a lot more support/hope that he actually sees it through.
Quote from: JRT;625992Inventory Stories didn't start with Jim Shooter for the record.
Hon, I was gently underlining the complete irrelevance of shifting Marvel inventory policy to the outrage against this particular late kickstarter. I read Alter Ego too. Let it go.
But since we're here, the whole concept of the fill-in issue evolved for a simple commercial reason. If you did not meet your ship deadlines, you were in solicitation breach and the retailers could fuss and you would not get paid. The money came with a promise attached. Break the promise, forfeit the money.
With Dwimmermount, we have a situation where the original promise was broken. It didn't make its ship date. IRWS piped up. IRWS wanted his money back. IRWS is clearly the asshole. Because inventory stories. Huh?
Now these hypotheticals are interesting but perhaps in another context:
Quote from: JRT;625992Going back to the original situation--if James "gave up" his copyright and another person finished it, in an attempt to meet the deadlines--would that be satisfactory to the backers. Is it just about the money or the promise? Is the creator important in the equation.
If Backer X fought to remove James from the creation, would Backer Y have a right to be upset because he'd rather wait for James to complete rather than have another person take it over?
That's where you have a grey area.
Sure. But remember, if you talk about grey areas, I'm going to talk about Gamer Stockholm Syndrome. Let's have a truce. Let's focus on exactly what we have: specific grievances, specific ways to do better in the future.
Otherwise, maybe Backer Y should've been forced to play more outdoor sports as a boy because he never developed a healthy sense of self. Maybe the entire project is in IP limbo anyway because of the way the cloned monsters fail to obey the SRD, so nobody wins. Maybe this is all a conspiracy to take down our friends at Autarch and "James Maliszewski" is really the evil Kevin Siembeda in drag.
We can all come up with maybes. We spend a lot of time imagining what it might be like to be an elf. For once, let's focus on what's right in front of us. Okay?
Quote from: Zachary The First;625878I can't be sure if you're serious or not, but as a frequent attendee of gun & knife shows, I can assure you this is actually the case.
I'm as serious as my friend who has waited 2+ years for his bark river custom...
QuoteWe can all come up with maybes. We spend a lot of time imagining what it might be like to be an elf. For once, let's focus on what's right in front of us. Okay?
I am focusing on the fact that while, there are backers like you who are annoyed at least, others are okay with it. In fact, there was a poll done to see what the backers want, and the majority still want to wait to see it completed.
And yes, I do think it's relevant to discuss the merits of a possible lawsuit if that lawsuit might anger the other backers. That fact is right in front of us. It is possible that if a class-action lawsuit was filed, other backers might object because the legal cure is not what they want.
Quote from: JRT;626006Your being deliberately obtuse now. I am focusing on the fact that while, there are backers like you who are annoyed at least, others are okay with it.
Feel free to dissect my obtuseness. This line sounds a lot like what got me back on this thread today:
Quote from: JRT;625915I would suggest you consider what the majority of the backers want though. If, say, only 10% of the backers are upset and 90% are willing to wait up to, say, 2 years, then I think it would be more constructive for you to just ask for a personal refund. You shouldn't put it upon yourself to seek justice "for the group" if you are in the minority.
I said it then, and I'm saying it again. Maybe there are a million overwhelmingly happy customers. That's great! Hooray for gamers! But when the one or two or five people who have a problem speak up, why so eager to point out that the complainers are in the minority?
To me that looks like, ah, textbook Gamer Stockholm Syndrome at work, friend. Defending the in group against all perceived threats. Silencing dissent by appealing to what amounts to peer pressure. "Don't rock the boat for the rest of us, Backer X. We took a vote and everything's great."
Now as it happens, the backers did take a vote. I'm not sure how Tavis wrangled an extra survey out of KS -- did you guys use a third-party tool? -- but most of the backers are indeed overjoyed, supportive. etc. That's great.
So we can shout down the people with grievances and be happy. Or we can learn from their grievances. I'd rather do the latter, but then, I'm a Dwimmermount backer and have a say, right?
By the way, Wmarshal, were you talking class action or just a selfish one man's stab at restitution if not revenge?
Quote from: JRT;625967Based on what he said, it seems like he's aiming for that. Normally, as an individual, he's allowed personal cure, which would be a personal refund of his cash. If he was given that, I doubt he'd have any cause to sue beyond that level.
My grievance is both injury and the insult added to it. The $167 I gave is the injury I'm experiencing so long as James continues to shirk his commitments. The idea that James could wind up keeping most of the 50k while failing to meet his responsibilities to the backers and his business partners, and that I ever had anything to do with it is the insult.
I'm more interested in removing the insult than the injury at this point. And to me the insult would be removed by James meeting his commitments within the next 2-3 months (which seems very unlikely), or allowing Autarch to finish the job with the funds he was given for that purpose. Even if I was given a refund from Autarch (which may cause a run on them, which is not my intent) I am still going to do some research (may take some weeks to accomplish between work and life in general) into what the legal options are and try to present them to the backers. If those options require some up front fees I'd be willing to still donate a few hundred bucks to get the ball rolling. Why? Because to my mind the insult would still exist that James is shirking his responsibilities and I helped him gain 50k by participating in the Kickstarter. So if anyone thinks I can be sent $167 (and I'm not asking) know that will just be another $167 I would donate to handle any fees. Or $167 to set up a Let's Sue James website to help coordinate efforts amongst the remaining backers. Time and money well spent for my point of view.
Again, this may turn into nothing as I research if there are no truly viable options, but there's at least one example where success was had at just the 35k level.
What is giving me the most pause is that I would want to do this with the least amount of collateral damage to Autarch. They have been stand-up guys in how they've tried to handle the situation. Mistakes were made, but I don't doubt their commitment. Maybe the additional kickstarter for some of the rewards not tied to James is a little crazy, but if they can pull that off more power to them. I backed their Player's Companion. I'm a fan of ACKS. I would like to see them produce the Auren Empire setting, though the longer Dwimmermount drags on the less likely this will occur in my opinion.
As to kickstarter a being late, I've funded several others and this is not the first late kickstarter I've had. OGRE is late, but I see progress being made and I don't doubt the outcome. Reaper's Bones is late, but again I see progress and i don't doubt the outcome. Dwimmermount is at best going to whole year late at this rate if it ever gets finished, and I very much doubt the outcome. James disappears for months at a time bringing the project to a standstill. Autarch has to ride herd on James when he does show up just to keep things moving. I'm sure that is time Autarch would have rather spent with their families or working on other rpg products. Dwimmermount is not just a little late like half of the other kickstarters to say nothing of those that have finished on time. Dwimmermount is very late and unable to proceed because James is not meeting his commitments.
As for the will of the other backers I will try to get a feel for where they are at, but I will also present to them the argument that it is time to proceed with legal action if that is indeed possible, and try to convince them to join in the action. Maybe most of them currently say they're happy because they don't know what their options are.
Some have hinted that I'm (or nerds in general) not serious about this. I can only state that I am serious about this. I'm not here to just throw insults at James or mock him like some have. I don't have a site like YDIS to get entertainment value out of tearing James down. I'm not cursing and trying to pick a fight with any of James' defenders. (He sure doesn't seem to have earned such loyalty, but it is certainly yours to give.) I apologize if my use of GSS has offended some, and I will try to refrain from using GSS any more in this discussion.
I am serious about determining what the legal options are and exercising them if available.
Quote from: Gib;625988Your elfgames are a different hobby, stop trying to corrupt the purity of RPG.
Look, if you can't handle my disassociative elfmechanics that make Story Now, Cheetos Later! then I don't know what to tell you.
Quote from: Fiasco;625997Why is it that other prominent OSR crowdsource projects are running late (Raggi, Frog God Games, etc) and no-one is screaming blue murder?
Though late, those guys have a track record of finishing what they start. That is not the case with Dwimmerount, and it looks like it won't come out at this point.
Quote from: wmarshal;626023My grievance is both injury and the insult added to it. The $167 I gave is the injury I'm experiencing so long as James continues to shirk his commitments. The idea that James could wind up keeping most of the 50k while failing to meet his responsibilities to the backers and his business partners, and that I ever had anything to do with it is the insult.
Thanks. I wish you -- and everybody on all sides -- sweet satisfaction.
Quote from: wmarshal;626023Even if I was given a refund from Autarch (which may cause a run on them, which is not my intent)
Just to piggyback on this because in my blathering I've forgotten to stress that if the refund channel was open, this would not be such a big deal. Unhappy people could cash out and shut up, everyone else could wait as long as they have to, hooray for gamers.
But last I heard they were simply referring refund queries to Grognardia, from which no reply emerged, so the situation is unusually tense. Other avenues may open up to make people whole but I don't want to speak for them at Autarch and Tavis has more important things to do (winterizing the twins and so on) than watch this thread like a hawk. Maybe if there's an update tomorrow.
Quote from: misterguignol;626028Though late, those guys have a track record of finishing what they start. That is not the case with Dwimmerount, and it looks like it won't come out at this point.
Indeed. The anger over Dwimmermount isn't so much the lateness as its James' behavior. Which let us not forget, was poor from the money the kickstarter closed. He should have had the work wrapped long before his father's health took a turn for the worse.
I see we've movewd past the first round of apologetics and into the recursive round wherein we learn that GSS isn't actually GSS, but, rather, patience and decency. That is awrsome.
Quote from: Gib;626050I see we've movewd past the first round of apologetics and into the recursive round wherein we learn that GSS isn't actually GSS, but, rather, patience and decency. That is awrsome.
Your name in the revolution is Tatiana. AOS was your slave name. You're welcome.
What, no hug?
I feel pretty!
Somebody asked upthread about why Raggi isn't feeling the heat, I think it is because he never shuts up. Hell, if you want to know about his divorce, he's got a module that covers it.
Quote from: Gib;626056I feel pretty!
Oh we're so pretty
Oh so pretty we're vacant
Quote from: ggroy;626062Oh we're so pretty
Oh so pretty we're vacant
I always liked that one.
Quote from: wmarshal;626023My grievance is both injury and the insult added to it. The $167 I gave is the injury I'm experiencing so long as James continues to shirk his commitments.
$167 pledged towards Dwimmermount.... wow. And there were 72 other pledgers around, or above that level. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised... the guy is/was a prolific, respected, and notorious blogger. But he hasn't had an extensive track record of publishing a great deal of material over the past... 3-4 years?
Admittedly, I tossed $100 towards
Traveller5 and
Horror on the Orient Express, apiece. But I felt that they were relatively 'safe' investments considering the publishers involved.
Quote from: Gib;626064I always liked that one.
And we don't care!
;)
Quote from: Gib;626061Somebody asked upthread about why Raggi isn't feeling the heat, I think it is because he never shuts up. Hell, if you want to know about his divorce, he's got a module that covers it.
Perhaps all those loudmouths on late night television and talk radio, were on the right track all along when it comes to PR. :D
Quote from: Gib;625875If the producer fufills their end of the deal it will never be an issue. People fuck up, and fucked up shit follows.
It very much can be an issue even with products that deliver, unfortunately. Development of a project goes in a direction some backer doesn't personally like and suddenly it's like they've personally been ripped off and they start throwing fits and making demands like somehow their $20 entitles them to creative control of the project.
Jim might owe you a product, but he doesn't owe you $50,000. I'm just saying maybe dialing down the rhetoric a little lower than "impugning the man's entire character and attacking his family life." We're starting to get very near to personal threat territory in this thread, and that's disgusting no matter what he's done or his reasons for it.
Oh say can you see,
where they mocked me a week ago?
they are gallantly defending
my points now.
Quote from: J Arcane;626073Jim might owe you a product, but he doesn't owe you $50,000. I'm just saying maybe dialing down the rhetoric a little lower than "impugning the man's entire character and attacking his family life." We're starting to get very near to personal threat territory in this thread, and that's disgusting no matter what he's done or his reasons for it.
You should probably directly address the posters whose activity has made you uncomfortable.
Quote from: Gib;626084You should probably directly address the posters whose activity has made you uncomfortable.
Eh. That would require me to go back and actually read this piece of shit again, and that doesn't really benefit me or anyone else.
I think I'd rather watch Festen again than actually comb through this thread for all the times someone has attacked the man personally or overidentified with the funding total.
Quote from: Zachary The First;625878. . . ome communication is better than none.
It dawned on me that the message came from behind the G+ firewall - intended only for his most loyal and forgiving fans, it would seem.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;626095It dawned on me that the message came from behind the G+ firewall - intended only for his most loyal and forgiving fans, it would seem.
That goes to show how ineffective of a barrier the G+ firewall really is.
These days if he really wanted something resembling a semi-effective "firewall", he would have been better off communicating on the telephone with such loyal forgiving fans.
Quote from: ggroy;626098That goes to show how ineffective of a barrier the G+ firewall really is.
These days if he really wanted something resembling a semi-effective "firewall", he would have been better off communicating on the telephone with such loyal forgiving fans.
Sort of. I feel confident that anyone who replied to the post with "Hey before you disappear again could you process my refund?" would have been dog-piled.
Quote from: econobus;626013Feel free to dissect my obtuseness...So we can shout down the people with grievances and be happy. Or we can learn from their grievances. I'd rather do the latter, but then, I'm a Dwimmermount backer and have a say, right?
I wasn't trying to shut you down. I wasn't even talking to you directly, you are making an assumption that I'm attacking the people who are complaining, I am not. So there's nothing more to be said between us.
Quote from: wmarshal;626023My grievance is both injury and the insult added to it. The $167 I gave is the injury I'm experiencing so long as James continues to shirk his commitments. The idea that James could wind up keeping most of the 50k while failing to meet his responsibilities to the backers and his business partners, and that I ever had anything to do with it is the insult.
I'm not entirely sure under legal process you can sue for the insult part.
Quote from: wmarshal;626023As for the will of the other backers I will try to get a feel for where they are at, but I will also present to them the argument that it is time to proceed with legal action if that is indeed possible, and try to convince them to join in the action. Maybe most of them currently say they're happy because they don't know what their options are.
Some have hinted that I'm (or nerds in general) not serious about this. I can only state that I am serious about this. I'm not here to just throw insults at James or mock him like some have. I don't have a site like YDIS to get entertainment value out of tearing James down. I'm not cursing and trying to pick a fight with any of James' defenders. (He sure doesn't seem to have earned such loyalty, but it is certainly yours to give.) I apologize if my use of GSS has offended some, and I will try to refrain from using GSS any more in this discussion.
I'm not necessarilly loyal to James--I think he's in the wrong at least by closing off communications, though I think there are unusual circumstances involved. I was more concerned with the following aspects:
If it turns out you are in the minority in fan opinion, I hope you consider that in your decision to sue. If, say, only 12 people agree with you and a few thousand are willing to wait, you would accept it. I have no problem with making your case, I just hope if it doesn't turn out what you would like you'd accept it, and not just dismiss people who disagree with you as having GSS or being dumb, as well as be aware of those consequences. At the same time, I respect the amount you are owed and understand why it would reach your boiling point by now.
Beyond that--I'll be surprised if you can get a class action suit. In the US, Federal Class Actions have a minimum value of 5,000,000.00 for them to be open, which is 100 times what the sum of the Dwimmermount Kickstarter had taken in. State law may vary, but it gets messy if you're suing a Canadian citizen...
So it seems as if Game Stockholm Syndrome is hitting the usual suspects.
James posting, self serving as it is, adds fuel to the fire that we all need to better understand him, and have sympathy for him. No where does he apologize or even mention Dwimmermount. Nothing about the lack of communication post Kickstarter closing. Nothing about his no processing of refund requests. But, according to the GSS (Gamer Stockholm Syndrome) sufferers we need to give him the milk of kindness. Dwimmermount is never going to see the light of day.
The thing is, if Jim came out from the start people would be understanding. The fact that he does not address, and have not address his inability to deliver refunds to those who have asked for them (I have gotten at least 10 emails from backers who have shown me their emails to Jim) should raise a red flag.
I am sorry, in the real world, even if you have a job, you owe it to your employer to keep them in the loop as to what is going on. The fact that he cut all communication with Tavis & Co. should raise a red flag.
Yet, in the end, those, like us, who dare to look behind the curtain are the assholes.
And, before someone tosses at me James' track record of being a "professional writer." The reason is simple, Jim the Scam never sticks to anything. I’ve listed it once, but here it is again:
1. Fourth Millennium announced with much flourish. A little Google Search:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?319002-Whatever-happend-to-Fourth-Mi…
(http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?319002-Whatever-happend-to-Fourth-Mi...)
http://roguegamesblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/in-which-richard-shares-h… (http://roguegamesblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/in-which-richard-shares-h...)
2. Thousand Suns? A game he professes great love for, and of which he did not support let alone do anything with. The Revision took forever, and all of his promised projects have not materialized.
3. Petty Gods. This is the biggest scam. He has all the art and writing. He says as much on his blog. It has been two years, and still nothing. Why the hell not? He has no problems begging for free game goods on his blog. Free art. Free writing. Why the heck not beg for some free layout help?
4. Megadungeon.net — don’t even go to the URL, it is not there anymore. Remember when he got sand in his vagina about Cook’s stupid Dungeon a Day thing? And James makes all these proclamations that the shit should be free? Yeah, I do too (http://roguegamesblog.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/rogue-games-bids-you-to-e… (http://roguegamesblog.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/rogue-games-bids-you-to-e…)). Where the hell is it, and the content that once was there? What, this cannot be right? James would not do something like this? Well he seemed pretty happy here (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/04/megadungeonnet.html (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/04/megadungeonnet.html)).
He can never finish anything, and in the case of Petty Gods, carry anything out.
But then sometimes I wonder…how if all of this:
My Feeble Skills (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/my-feeble-skills.html)
Progress (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/progress.html)
Getting There (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/getting-there.html)
Table of Contents (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/table-of-contents.html)
The Goblinoids of Dwimmermount (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/goblinoids-of-dwimmermount.html)
Thinkin’ ‘bout Dwimmermount (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/thinkin-bout-dwimmermount.html)
The Clerics of Dwimmermount (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/clerics-of-dwimmermount.html)
Yet Jim's the victim. Those who dare question the believability of the situation are the assholes. Whatever. It is pretty sad that Jim hides behind a limited G+ posting, and no update as of now, or apology, has been given to backers of his "historical megadungeon."
That's right, Gamer Stockholm Syndrome does not exist.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;626145And, before someone tosses at me James' track record of being a "professional writer." The reason is simple, Jim the Scam never sticks to anything.
Unless he's bigger than Stephen King or J.D. Salinger, it sounds like he would have been dropped (or fired) by publishers for failing to deliver on too many writing contracts. Editors don't seem to like unreliable contracts who can't meet deadlines.
Quote from: jeff37923;625939This Kickstarter proves to me that you should never back one unless you are willing to lose your backing money and that you should think twice about backing a Kickstarter for someone who appears to have mental issues.
Kickstarters are crapshoots. Its a gamble and backers need to treat it as such. Don't bet what you can't lose.
Clearly even established companies like SJG and Reaper did not budget their time well enough to meet their deadlines. Missed deadlines are the norm for Kickstarter and hopefully become less so in future years as more creators get a better understanding.
Quote from: ggroy;625972A huge element of narcissism seems to be a common personality trait of such individuals.
Anyone who dares to create something out of nothing needs a lot of vanity to believe their new thing is worth the attention of the world.
Quote from: Fiasco;625997Why is it that other prominent OSR crowdsource projects are running late (Raggi, Frog God Games, etc) and no-one is screaming blue murder?
Communication with the backers.
Quote from: Spinachcat;626161Anyone who dares to create something out of nothing needs a lot of vanity to believe their new thing is worth the attention of the world.
Very true.
Quote from: Spinachcat;626161Communication with the backers.
*DING!* Winnah!
QuoteYet, in the end, those, like us, who dare to look behind the curtain are the assholes.
Again, you can be correct and an asshole.
wmarshal, for instance, explains his grievance calmly and rationally. He is upset, and is actually doing something about it. Better yet, he respects other people's opinions. He's doing far more to show the other side than you are.
Also, if you want to convince people that you are correct, insulting the people who back the project by creating the GSS term is not the way to go about it--if anything they are more likely to rally around him than reject him. If you are truly trying to expose a problem or if you are trying to convince others, sarcasm and an antagonistic tone is not going to win you a lot of fans.
Quote from: JRT;626169Again, you can be correct and an asshole.
:: eye roll ::
IRWS
Quote from: JRT;626169Also, if you want to convince people that you are correct, insulting the people who back the project by creating the GSS term is not the way to go about it--if anything they are more likely to rally around him than reject him. If you are truly trying to expose a problem or if you are trying to convince others, sarcasm and an antagonistic tone is not going to win you a lot of fans.
There's different ways of approaching critique, whether calm and rational (such as BBC or CNN International) or confrontational and sarcastic (such as Fox or late night television shows).
In the end, it's a matter of personal taste and preferences.
Quote from: Settembrini;626075Oh say can you see,
where they mocked me a week ago?
they are gallantly defending
my points now.
Nobody is defending your idiot personal attacks on his manhood you short-bus rider. Do you see anyone mentioning him moving from a city in the U.S. to Canada? Do you see anyone mentioning his wife? Do you see anyone mentioning his manhood? No, because your points were stupid, bigoted, and wrong. And my saying that is not a defense of what he did - it's purely an analysis of what you did.
Quote from: I run with scissors;626170:: eye roll ::
IRWS
You rolling your eyes is not a response. He's correct. You can be (and are) an asshole even if you're right. What part of this are you not understanding? What makes you think "being correct" is mutually exclusive with "being an asshole"?
The primary complaint about you is that you are behaving like an asshole. N0T because of your positions, but because of the manner you're communicating your position. You're communicating like an asshole, and being called on it, and not dealing well with being called on it. Probably because you're an asshole.
Quote from: Mistwell;626176You rolling your eyes is not a response. He's correct. You can be (and are) an asshole even if you're right. What part of this are you not understanding? What makes you think "being correct" is mutually exclusive with "being an asshole"?
The primary complaint about you is that you are behaving like an asshole. N0T because of your positions, but because of the manner you're communicating your position. You're communicating like an asshole, and being called on it, and not dealing well with being called on it. Probably because you're an asshole.
:: eye roll ::
IRWS wearing back socks with white shoes
Quote from: Mistwell;626175Nobody is defending your idiot personal attacks on his manhood you short-bus rider.
No, because your points were stupid, bigoted, and wrong.
Good job taking the high road, Mistwell. Bravo.
EN world loads really slow.
Quote from: VectorSigma;626181Good job taking the high road, Mistwell. Bravo.
I am glad we have Mistwell to tell us who we can mock and who is above mockery. Otherwise the world would be just too confusing.
Quote from: VectorSigma;626181Good job taking the high road, Mistwell. Bravo.
He made stupid personal attacks, and collectively as a group we responded "that's not appropriate", and now he is pretending people are agreeing with him when we are definitely not. We tried the high road with him, and he just didn't get it. So now I am trying the low road with him. 0ne method might sink in.
Quote from: Mistwell;626196He made stupid personal attacks, and collectively as a group we responded "that's not appropriate", and now he is pretending people are agreeing with him when we are definitely not. We tried the high road with him, and he just didn't get it. So now I am trying the low road with him. 0ne method might sink in.
IRWS performed a public service wih Dwimmermount.
Quote from: misterguignol;626190I am glad we have Mistwell to tell us who we can mock and who is above mockery. Otherwise the world would be just too confusing.
Fuck that. You can mock anyone you want. But when you take a debate about RPGs into attacking someone over how he relates to his wife and family, or his decision to move, you're off target. And when a bunch of your peers call you on it, and your remain oblivious, you should be called on that as well. Particularly when you're making those very personal bashes while you yourself remain anonymous so you don't risk any similar retaliation.
Quote from: Mistwell;626199Fuck that. You can mock anyone you want. But when you take a debate about RPGs into attacking someone over how he relates to his wife and family, or his decision to move, you're off target. And when a bunch of your peers call you on it, and your remain oblivious, you should be called on that as well. Particularly when you're making those very personal bashes while you yourself remain anonymous so you don't risk any similar retaliation.
Called on it by making fun of the handicapped. Good job, bro.
Quote from: Fiasco;626197IRWS performed a public service wih Dwimmermount.
Uh, my comment was not about IRWS.
Quote from: misterguignol;626200Called on it by making fun of the handicapped. Good job, bro.
Your mother was not mentioned, in mockery or otherwise, bro.
And, I am really not sure how saying "You are specially abled" is making fun of the handicapped. If I said "You are a slug" is that making fun of slugs?
By the way, the phrase "handicapped" has gone out of vogue.
Quote from: Mistwell;626202Your mother was not mentioned, in mockery or otherwise, bro.
Wait, you think it's wrong that people were saying shit about James's family earlier in the thread, right?
QuoteAnd, I am really not sure how saying "You are specially abled" is making fun of the handicapped. If I said "You are a slug" is that making fun of slugs?
You can't be this dumb. You realize that making jokes about short buses is having a laugh at the expense of the handicapped right?
That and pedophelia are fair game around here. The the laffs never stop.
Quote from: misterguignol;626203Wait, you think it's wrong that people were saying shit about James's family earlier in the thread, right?
I am glad you got the joke. I thought it might have been lost on you, bro.
QuoteYou can't be this dumb. You realize that making jokes about short buses is having a laugh at the expense of the handicapped right?
I did not make a joke about short buses. I made a joke about a particular person, implying he is specially abled. It's having a laugh at the guy who I said was specially abled. Again, if I call you a slug, I am not mocking all slugs, just you.
But even if you think it's inappropriate, I am saying he deserves a taste of the inappropriate, for what he did. And if the specially abled are upset that I accused him of being like them, then I apologized to the specially abled...all of them except him, that is.
Quote from: ggroy;626098That goes to show how ineffective of a barrier the G+ firewall really is.
The firewall isn't about keeping Maliszewski's comments private. It's about firewalling comments that Maliszewski doesn't want to hear.
i think we can agree that i run with scissors, settembrini, and mistwell are all crazy assholes.
Time to break out the heavy artillery?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Melan/what-is-going-on_zpsdd1673b2.jpg)
Where IS the money, though?
Melan, that was a post most fowl.
Quote from: Settembrini;626256Where IS the money, though?
Grogtardia has the money. And most likely, he's gonna keep the money because most likely, he's already spent the money.
But you know all this. What do you think you are getting by asking it repeatedly?
Malizewski has my sympathy and my prayers. I've lost my dad as a kid and I deal with very sick people and their families daily, and while I should not be surprised at the general lack of empathy from the Internet crowd (even if you think the guy is a douche, he's probably going through the sort of thing you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy), I am.
With regards to Dwimmermount, yeah, even with a very sick dad I figure he could at least have taken 5 minutes to send an abridged version of his latest message ("Dad very sick, will disappear for 3 months") to the Autarch crew, who have been doing unpaid PR & project management in his absence with their own reputation at stake.
I'm willing cut to him some slack, but then again, worse case scenario is I lose $10. I might not be as lenient if I was in for substantially more. At this juncture, as an Autarch fanboy, I'm happy if one of my favorite companies emerges unscathed.
Really? 'Specially Abled' is the term of choice now? If I were 'Specially Abled' I'd feel 'Specially Happy' about such doublespeak... that would include shouting and expletives.
Oh, and that goose picture would make me spill my milk... if I had milk to spill.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;626210The firewall isn't about keeping Maliszewski's comments private. It's about firewalling comments that Maliszewski doesn't want to hear.
Ding. Winner winner chicken dinner. Is it any wonder why more and more of the OSR crowd is moving to G+ so they can protect themselves from the masses. It is easier to live in a fantasy world when you put up a wall to keep reality out of it.
Quote from: ICFTI;626213i think we can agree that i run with scissors, settembrini, and mistwell are all crazy assholes.
I am not crazy. A asshole, but not crazy.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;626265I am not crazy. A asshole, but not crazy.
If you admit to it, why do you get so upset over stuff like this:
Quote from: I run with scissors;626265Those who dare question the believability of the situation are the assholes
Can't really have it both ways.
I think you're more upset because people are disagreeing with you, and that people aren't uniformly getting torches and pitchforks in a lockstep hategasm.
Quote from: Spinachcat;626259Melan, that was a post most fowl.
Grogtardia has the money. And most likely, he's gonna keep the money because most likely, he's already spent the money.
But you know all this. What do you think you are getting by asking it repeatedly?
Because the implications are pretty different, depending on where the money is. The results range from "someone is late with work" to "fraudulent behaviour".
And my hunch is that people who still defend the disaster have not thought through all the implications of nobody knowing where the money is.
So my point is to make everybody think where the money is and what that means.
Quote from: JRT;626270If you admit to it, why do you get so upset over this
Please do you think I care? Sarcasm is wasted on gamers.
IRWS
Quote from: I run with scissors;626265I am not crazy. A asshole, but not crazy.
IRWS
AN asshole.
If you are going to be an asshole, at least do so using proper English. :)
Quote from: I run with scissors;626265Ding. Winner winner chicken dinner. Is it any wonder why more and more of the OSR crowd is moving to G+ so they can protect themselves from the masses. It is easier to live in a fantasy world when you put up a wall to keep reality out of it.
IRWS
The entire internet is a fantasy world, scissors. Get over yourself.
Quote from: Gib;626299The entire internet is a fantasy world, scissors.
I am a pretty princess.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;626307I am a pretty princess.
I am a person of worth.
Quote from: Gib;626310I am a person of worth.
I AM Cornholio!
Quote from: Black Vulmea;626307I am a pretty princess.
No, I'm a pretty princess.
<------------
Quote from: Black Vulmea;626307I am a pretty princess.
When I read your posts, I picture you in pink, with a delicate crown, and a high pitched voice.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;626307I am a pretty princess.
I am a completely rational, level headed human being who only speaks in reasonable terms and thinks things completely through before replying.
Also, I am a great speller.
Quote from: Mistwell;626323When I read your posts, I picture you in pink, with a delicate crown, and a high pitched voice.
I save the crown for state functions; right now I'm wearing my steeple-hat.
(http://www.talltoad.net/cones/Lg/cone-pink.jpg)
Quote from: J Arcane;626318No, I'm a pretty princess.
Why must you destroy my dreams?
AFAIAC, you're all pretty on the inside.
Quote from: KenHR;626348AFAIAC, you're all pretty on the inside.
We're all pretty Snow White.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;626340I save the crown for state functions; right now I'm wearing my steeple-hat.
You've got a lovely tan, but maybe eat a sandwich. Your neck frightens me.
If there are any backers to Dwimmermount on this thread who are interested in exploring what legal options we have please send me your e-mail address and how you are identified on the Kickstarter. My e-mail address is:
wmarshal@cox.net
I've also posted a similar request on the Kickstarter page itself in the comments page and in the comments to the latest update.
If I have your e-mail address I can try to keep you updated as to my progress.
Quote from: Mistwell;626207I did not make a joke about short buses. I made a joke about a particular person, implying he is specially abled. It's having a laugh at the guy who I said was specially abled. Again, if I call you a slug, I am not mocking all slugs, just you.
Can you see your duodenum from where your head is?
In other news, to reply to IRWS' comment about OSRites fleeing to G+ as some kind of protective measure... I don't see it, at least not at the scale you're implying. There are certainly some people who see the ability to mute/ignore/exclude as a feature of that platform; and there are absolutely people who enjoy taking advantage of that 'walled garden' they've set up for themselves. But there are plenty of gamers ("OSR types" included) who are active on G+ and still pretty active on (some) forums.
Quote from: VectorSigma;626538Can you see your duodenum from where your head is?
In other news, to reply to IRWS' comment about OSRites fleeing to G+ as some kind of protective measure... I don't see it, at least not at the scale you're implying. There are certainly some people who see the ability to mute/ignore/exclude as a feature of that platform; and there are absolutely people who enjoy taking advantage of that 'walled garden' they've set up for themselves. But there are plenty of gamers ("OSR types" included) who are active on G+ and still pretty active on (some) forums.
Not wanting to read your (or anyone else's) stupid bullshit is not a moral failing. It's the exercise of freedom of choice.
Quote from: J Arcane;626582Not wanting to read your (or anyone else's) stupid bullshit is not a moral failing. It's the exercise of freedom of choice.
It is, and it makes you a person not able to take disagreement (or "stupidity") for an answer.
No it means that you want to spend time communicatng with people you actually fucking like, not random narcissitic and argumetative jackasses. I can see why that would be threatening to many forum trogs and mods.
Quote from: Gib;626603No it means that you want to spend time communicatng with people you actually fucking like, not random narcissitic and argumetative jackasses. I can see why that would be threatening to many forum trogs and mods.
Yeah, I can see how that applies to what you're actually doing right now.
How's the hate crusade going? Are you ready to take a deep breath, or are you so far down the hole you can't tell reality from fiction now, Alice?
Quote from: Benoist;626589It is, and it makes you a person not able to take disagreement (or "stupidity") for an answer.
So because my G+ posts aren't public, I fear disagreement? What a load of crap, Benoist.
Why would I have anything to say to you? I know nothing of your job, your experience, or your life, is how you put it, I think. Obviously, my perceptions could nevereverevereeverever be based on experience of my own. And were they, how could they possibly be as valid as yours?
No, they must be PC bullshit.
Except they were not.
Work the rest out for yourself, if you can, and fuck you from the bottom of my tiny fucking heart.
Quote from: VectorSigma;626610So because my G+ posts aren't public, I fear disagreement? What a load of crap, Benoist.
When you close your comments on your popular blog only to redirect them to G+, and then make everything subjected to whoever's in your circles or not, that makes you someone fearing disagreement, and welcoming the confirmation bias. For sure.
Quote from: Gib;626614Why would I have anything to say to you? I know nothing of your job, your experience, or your life, is how you put it, I think. Obviously, my perceptions could nevereverevereeverever be based on experience of my own. And were they, how could they possibly be as valid as yours?
No, they must be PC bullshit.
Except they were not.
Work the rest out for yourself, if you can, and fuck you from the bottom of my tiny fucking heart.
Keep flailing around in anger like this. That is really making you sound mature.
There is message in that post for you if you have the wit to decode it.
Looking mature has never ever been a goal of mine, I mean, obviously.
However, I wont go round and round with you, like your favorite posters do.
I'll make it easy for you, my next post will be the pundit's real name. You have ten minutes.
Quote from: Gib;626619There is message in that post for you if you have the wit to decode it.
Looking mature has never ever been a goal of mine, I mean, obviously.
However, I wont go round and round with you, like your favorite posters do.
I'll make it easy for you, my next post will be the pundit's real name. You have ten minutes.
Well obviously, I'm not the one posting ranty posts about how much you suck and are wrong and how comparing this or that to my imagined issues makes you a terrible person. You are. You're blowing a fuse right now, and you need to really calm down. And yes, if you post the RPG Pundit's name, I'll ban you. You will have created the situation on your own, with previous warning indicating you know what the penalty is for doing such a thing, I might add. But I don't want to do that. I just don't. So come back to your senses, and stop posting like you are some 10-year-old having a tantrum. I like you. Don't be dumb. Thank you.
Five minutes.
Quote from: Benoist;626615When you close your comments on your popular blog only to redirect them to G+, and then make everything subjected to whoever's in your circles or not, that makes you someone fearing disagreement, and welcoming the confirmation bias. For sure.
Ah, so you're just talking about Grognardia. Got it. These misunderstandings would be fewer if your brush were narrower, I think. Let's all be clearer where possible.
I agree that getting rid of public commenting on a blog is...counter to the purpose of many blogs. I might be biased, though, in that right after James did that he pretty much stopped adding anybody back on G+ (including me, despite two emails to him of the "hey, add me back pls" variety). The full retreat indeed began long before Christmas.
After James set up a 'comment zone' in G+ for his blog, I did see several other OSR-type bloggers experiment with the same. I've no idea if it's working for them, but I do know that if I'm reading a post on a blog and want to comment - and can't do it on the blog - I've yet to bother hopping over to G+ to comment. If I learned about the blogpost through the G+ feed in the first place, that's a different animal.
I have no intention of closing my blog comments, ever, unless there were some horrible spam issue that couldn't be surmounted. The blog is the blog, and my social media is my social media. That said, although my G+ traffic with people I know and have gamed with is far more expansive than with people I don't know or have only recently "met", I'll gladly circle any gamer
who actually uses the medium to talk about gaming. Not their cat, not pictures of their food, and certainly not political/religious stuff. That's a one-way ticket to the muted circle, I'm afraid.
If all you're going about is just trolling for the lulz then no, I don't find it acceptable. You used to be witty and funny, and now it just sounds mean and frustrated. If you go ahead and post the Pundit's name knowing what the penalty is, I will ban you, Gib/Aos. Do not make me have to do this.
Check you email, genius.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/25258104.jpg)
I agree with whoever said that transferring his comments to G+ was a bad move. That was almost as fun as reading his posts, seeing what comments could/would be posted. The fact that you had to go through more hoops to read them sucked.
Quote from: Gib;626628Check you email, genius.
Did.
Well this sucks. I wont post his name, because it goes against my personal code.
I'll settle however, for the ability to IL Ben. My reasons are extremely valid and he is now aware of them.
Quote from: Gib;626635Well this sucks. I wont post his name, because it goes against my personal code.
I'll settle however, for the ability to IL Ben. My reasons are extremely valid and he is now aware of them.
You won't be able to IL me. You'll just have to use your willpower and ignore me for good, however wrong your projections actually are.
Well, then
aaaaand there goes another one.
Did you all get that? I didn 't want to leave it up forever.
Also censuring someone for insensitivity is not the same as projecting.
I totally posted the pundit's real name, totally. Ban me. It is the rule.
Quote from: Gib;626635Well this sucks. I wont post his name, because it goes against my personal code.
I'll settle however, for the ability to IL Ben. My reasons are extremely valid and he is now aware of them.
Gib, I recommend this: http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/23573-Greasemonkey-extension-for-Vbulletin-Ignore
It's not up anymore. If you really want to do this, you'll have to let it stand, and let me edit it after you're banned. Such as it is, you let it up for a few seconds, and "I didn't see it." I'm giving you a second chance to not have me ban you. Don't do it.
I'll leave it to the pundit. He'll do what is necessary. Meanwhile, I'll get back to disrupting the site.
The fuck is it with suicide-by-mods around here? This is the third or fourth I've seen in the (just over) a year since I've been here.
Weird.
This thread has taken a strange turn. What the hell is this kerfuffle about? Is this what the Purple refers to as a suicide-by-mod attempt?
It's like insurance, or antabuse.
All this is over the contention that choosing to discuss things only with people you've vetted and who agree with you maybe just might cause a narrowing of discussion? :rolleyes:
Clearing out the noise sure is attractive, but let's not pretend it won't eventually lead to cliques and echo chambers, hell that happens eventually when other people are allowed in, it will just happen faster when you keep stuff on the down low with the other cool cats.
Christ, the OSR blogosphere was moving that way already before the move to G+, people more concerned with being in then saying what's on their mind.
Also unlike some people like J, Aos, Zak, who G+, blog, forum the whole 9 yards - we were (before the tempest in a thimble) talking about Mal, who put his fingers in his ears and refused to interact with any critics. Sounds like the Pope isn't exactly running with a full Mitre at the moment, so we can cut him some slack, but it is illustrative of exactly the valid criticism of G+, that it increases enjoyment by only allowing the softest hands in the circle-jerk.
No one on this earth is obligated to listen to you berate them.
Even telemarketers and IT clerks are allowed to hang up on hostile callers.
In a digital space, where one is not capable of punching someone in the throat, this important tenet becomes all the more relevant.
Quote from: CRKrueger;626653Clearing out the noise sure is attractive, but let's not pretend it won't eventually lead to cliques and echo chambers, hell that happens eventually when other people are allowed in, it will just happen faster when you keep stuff on the down low with the other cool cats.
Christ, the OSR blogosphere was moving that way already before the move to G+, people more concerned with being in then saying what's on their mind.
I don't know that it leads to cliques and echo-chambers any faster than some fora do, but sure, yes, this stuff is human nature. Yet conversely, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that every social media platform should work exactly the same as a forum, either. There's a difference between "I like having more control over who I chat with about games" and "I have decided to talk only with vetted, pre-approved people who agree with me".
The real issue I think you're getting at is not the tech, or the medium, but the circling-of-wagons in a clique and the concern about being "in" or "accepted" or whatever.
I don't have time for the high-school shit. I'll chat with anybody about gaming crap. But don't be surprised if an interesting exchange means I want to chat with that person more.
I have more people in circles than this place has active posters. Fuck, Zak and I are in near continual state of disagreement. We've yet to uncircle or block one another. I post gaming stuff and it is visible to everyone in my gaming circles, i have two, gaming and relevant. Relevant is for those poster who I know don't post cat pictures or long political screeds. I don't make public gaming posts, because, like, my archaeology friends don't care about D&D and they are the only other people on there.
This G+ option is sounding better and better.
Damn for a guy trying to get banned, you sure like to hear the sound of your own voice.
Losing Gib/Aos from RPGsite would utterly suck. Even shittier than when Kyle Aaron flamed out of here.
Quote from: Spinachcat;626673Losing Gib/Aos from RPGsite would utterly suck. Even shittier than when Kyle Aaron flamed out of here.
Pseudo flamed out. Kyle and David R left in protest of the flameout.
Well colour me confused about the reason for Aos' tanty. Would be a damn shame to lose him, however.
Quote from: Fiasco;626683Well colour me confused about the reason for Aos' tanty. Would be a damn shame to lose him, however.
Benoist is not only a prick, he's a prick who absolutely refuses to ever take responsibility for his behavior.
I for one, though, hope Aos remains, despite Benoist being a collosal fucking prick, because he's good people, makes cool shit, and his unceasing deflation of the high-minded, self-inflated bullshit that sometimes passes for discourse around here was always appreciated.
But if not, fuck it, he was one of the first people I added on G+ so I can always find him there.
The flip side of G+'s supposed "self-censorship" is I also can keep in touch with the people authoritarian domains drove away.
I'm certainly no Benoist apologist, IMO he used to be a lot cooler a few years ago when he didnt appear on a personal mission to present a certain face of D&D. Still, I can't see what he said in this thread was so provocative.
I'm not on G+ because I don't have the time. For mine it's a damn shame so much of the OSR has moved there.
So, uh, how 'bout them megadungeons? I hear stuff about this Dwimmermount thing. Anything good?
:idunno:
People don't like what Benoist says...
Fuck you, you Gallic prick. Your back's hairier then your scalp, and you people deserve EuroDisney for being so rude and your women not shaving those armpits.
I know he's a mod and you can't IL him, but so what. I read fast, like very very fast. No system like Evelyn Woods, just fast. I can't read so fast it's impossible to scroll past a post without seeing it. Well maybe I'll catch a one liner, no matter what I do, but you get my point.
The only difference here between a mod and non-mod is with a mod, after I tell him to go fuck his mother/wife/sister (doesn't matter what order, it's the same person), I can't go "Neener Neener Neener" and announce to the world my flawless victory by publicly declaring my IL.
What's the only, and I mean ONLY way to do "Neener Neener Neener" here? Suicide by mod, which in a place practically without rules, makes you look like an idiot. I want off of awfulpurple or enworld, I tell the mods off to their face, I walk away knowing I'll get banned, it's catharsis. Here to get that, I have to post porn, links to sites illegal in some countries, discuss paedophilia or call Pundit by his name. Everyone can see you're dying on that hill, but it's such an obvious and ridiculous act no matter how cool you are that it's hard to sympathize.
Quote from: Opaopajr;626703So, uh, how 'bout them megadungeons? I hear stuff about this Dwimmermount thing. Anything good?
:idunno:
It's got a hella cool name, and since the author is a historical kind of guy, I'm sure in the end, once he gets his life back on track and his head in the game, there will be lots of stuff in there to give sense of age and context to the place, even if there won't be dancing silverware, flying snakes or laserbears in each room and some room descriptions might be dull. I hear some levels are very cool map wise.
Also despite the claim from some that he's stealing 50k, the beta has some what, 200 pages or something? There is a document. It just needs layout and publishing, which is on hold.
There, something positive for you Opa.
Quote from: Benoist;626625If all you're going about is just trolling for the lulz then no, I don't find it acceptable. You used to be witty and funny, and now it just sounds mean and frustrated. If you go ahead and post the Pundit's name knowing what the penalty is, I will ban you, Gib/Aos. Do not make me have to do this.
If you really feel like descending to threats, you should hand in your moderator badge before you do something irresponsible with it.
Why would we even need moderators again?
Also Ben, pleas do not derail the thread!
This is about where the money is!
I miss all the fun...or in this case, sadness.
As Sett said, show me the money!
Quote from: Settembrini;626719This is about where the money is!
Do you think anyone on this message board can answer that?
Quote from: One Horse Town;626721I miss all the fun...or in this case, sadness.
As Sett said, show me the money!
Mommy and daddy are fighting again! There's effete stay-at-home dads from Canada, Stockholm syndrome, short buses, "suicide"-by-mod threats, princesses -- and lawyers! And I think someone took all the beer money, too!
It's all too much, One Horse Town! Make it stop before the cops come! I'm afraid to go downstairs...
:confused:
The thread cannot answer the question of where the money is, but can make people think about the different possibilities.
And some of the more benign ones look VERY unlikely!
Also it would be SUPER EASY for Jamal or Tavis to just tell us where YOUR money is!!!!
That no one answers the question alone is damning enough.
So, where is the money?
EXEC. SUMMARY: The answer to the question is also the answer to the question whether there was fraud or not.
Quote from: Settembrini;626738The thread cannot answer the question of where the money is, but can make people think about the different possibilities.
And some of the more benign ones look VERY unlikely!
Also it would be SUPER EASY for Jamal or Tavis to just tell us where YOUR money is!!!!
That no one answers the question alone is damning enough.
So, where is the money?
EXEC. SUMMARY: The answer to the question is also the answer to the question whether there was fraud or not.
I guess no one reads my blog. I might have found some of the answers...
IRWS
Well, I guess if he actually used the dough the buy stuff for his kids and make a nice vacation with the family...
In a way that is the most positive thing I have heard so far about him!
Well, this is interesting (http://www.wizards.com/Dnd/Archive.aspx?sort=author&page=1&=...Start&category=dungeon&subcategory=dndalumni).
Maliszewski was able to get far enough ahead ( . . .?) on his Whizbros articles that they were able to publish one in September, two in October and one in December. I wonder if they have any more sitting on a hard drive somewhere, and if so, when they were written.
Would Whizbros publish his articles without communicating with him at some point? I've never tried to publish anything, so I don't know how that works.
Quote from: Settembrini;626738Also it would be SUPER EASY for Jamal or Tavis to just tell us where YOUR money is!!!!
I'm quite sure Tavis already said -- several times, actually -- that all the money was sent to Malizewski.
Now regarding what Malizewski is actually doing with the money, well, that's the real question. Not that I'd know why you care, since I find it rather unlikely that you actually bought in to something written by the guy you call "The Grand Douche".
Went back and read the Aos/Ben meltdown. Holy shit.
What the fuck is happening to this place?
Quote from: The Butcher;626753Went back and read the Aos/Ben meltdown. Holy shit.
What the fuck is happening to this place?
It's exactly what I've always suspected would happen to this place.
It already happened, some years ago actually!
Much like Ludicris, theRPGsite wants to see how low you can go (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox-lfowevqA).
Quote from: I run with scissors;626265I am not crazy. A asshole, but not crazy.
Wait...I've heard that before...B.T. is that you?
Quote from: I run with scissors;626743I guess no one reads my blog. I might have found some of the answers...
IRWS
You think "He bought his kids some normal Christmas presents" is a sign he spent the money?
You've crossed into creepy stalker territory man. Stop reading and reposting his wife's blog about her kids. This issue is not worth you going there. Time for a new hobby when you find yourself doing that. Whatever fucked up thing is going on in your life where you feel the need to attention whore on this level, time to address it in a healthier manner.
Quote from: Mistwell;626919You've crossed into creepy stalker territory man. Stop reading and reposting his wife's blog about her kids. This issue is not worth you going there. Time for a new hobby when you find yourself doing that. Whatever fucked up thing is going on in your life where you feel the need to attention whore on this level, time to address it in a healthier manner.
I had something like this happen in the past. Unbeknownst to me, my ex-wife was stalking me for a period of time. I only found out about it, when I found a gps unit in my car that wasn't mine. At the time, I thought it was simultaneously amusing and creepy.
Anyone know the origin of the "Dwimmer" word used in the title of this game?
Is it supposed to be like the "Dwemer (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dwemer)" from Elder Scrolls?
I guess L0TR used it, ""It is ill dealing with such a foe: he is a wizard both cunning and dwimmer-crafty, having many guises." — J. R. R. Tolkien, The Two Towers"
And then there is Dwimor (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dwimor#Old_English), which is Proto-Germanic and Proto-Indo-European.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;626749Well, this is interesting (http://www.wizards.com/Dnd/Archive.aspx?sort=author&page=1&=...Start&category=dungeon&subcategory=dndalumni).
Maliszewski was able to get far enough ahead ( . . .?) on his Whizbros articles that they were able to publish one in September, two in October and one in December. I wonder if they have any more sitting on a hard drive somewhere, and if so, when they were written.
Would Whizbros publish his articles without communicating with him at some point? I've never tried to publish anything, so I don't know how that works.
AFAIK there is a decent delay between submission and publishing. This was from a while ago when my bro got an article published in Pyramid. So I dunno how fast the digital age makes things, but I can imagine a delay of a few months, especially if they had a bunch of other stuff in the pipe.
"Dwimmer" is a variation of "dwimor" and "dweomer", which indicates illusion, magic, spells and the like. Dweomercraft is the practice of magic. Dwimmer-mount is "that mountain which is magical/where magic/illusions/deception can be found."
Quote from: Mistwell;626919You think "He bought his kids some normal Christmas presents" is a sign he spent the money?
You've crossed into creepy stalker territory man. Stop reading and reposting his wife's blog about her kids. This issue is not worth you going there. Time for a new hobby when you find yourself doing that. Whatever fucked up thing is going on in your life where you feel the need to attention whore on this level, time to address it in a healthier manner.
Jesus fuck yes.
I think Jmal is using weak excuses to hide from his responsibilities and has been shown up as a flake who can't be trusted. I even think in light if his absence and bullshit non acknowledgement/communication that something his wife blogged would be relevant if they were going on cruises and hosting extravagant parties BUT...
the fact they brought xmas presents is normal- you have kids, you buy presents if you can. Yeah to me it looks like a lot of $$$ but we don't know what the wife makes or who bought them/how.
Even the game night at home sounds like normal family stuff I would expect him to be doing, I don't imagine him in bed all day, just going through the motions for his kids sake and ignoring the real world.
Not as damning by far as his general actions to backers/refund seekers/autarch.
Quote from: Mistwell;626919You think "He bought his kids some normal Christmas presents" is a sign he spent the money?
You've crossed into creepy stalker territory man. Stop reading and reposting his wife's blog about her kids.
That is
way beyond the fucking pale. Unbelievable.
Hang on, they publicly blog it why is reading and reposting it beyond the pale?
No-one has attacked the wife & kids as a target, just tried to suggest that is where the money is gone and that other aspects of his home life shows no sign of this crippling tragedy at all.
I don't think buying xmas presents is quite the smoking gun RWS's seems to think but there's no reason not to read a public blog to gather info, especially since Jmal went underground so long. If it was meant to be private it would be a group email or something, not a public blog.
If you put your life on the internet, don't expect it to remain private.
Quote from: Benoist;626927"Dwimmer" is a variation of "dwimor" and "dweomer", which indicates illusion, magic, spells and the like. Dweomercraft is the practice of magic. Dwimmer-mount is "that mountain which is magical/where magic/illusions/deception can be found."
Hm, "Illusion mountain".
Just one more coincidence for the legend.
Interestingly enough, radio show Studio 360 had a segment about failed Kickstarters. You can read about it through the link below. There is also access to listen to the entire piece.
Most inetesting fact for me is that the failure rate is only 3.7%. Little comfort for the backers, but still seems low to me.
http://www.studio360.org/2013/feb/08/who-backs-the-backers-on-kickstarter/
Just as a head's up, if you're a Dwimmermount backer you can download a draft of my DEVILMOUNT remix of the megadungeon from Autarch. My remix is a gonzo parody of the OSR's "lost dungeon" through the lens of a teenager heavily into metal, aliens, and cough syrup. Fully-formatted, fully-playable. Enjoy.
Quote from: misterguignol;627064My remix is a gonzo parody of the OSR's "lost dungeon" through the lens of a teenager heavily into metal, aliens, and cough syrup.
Heh. Robo-ing type hallucinations?
Quote from: ggroy;627068Heh. Robo-ing type hallucinations?
Exactly.
Quote from: Endless Flight;627059If you put your life on the internet, don't expect it to remain private.
This is true, but it also doesn't justify people being jerks about it either. I mean just because a woman posts her address on facebook that doesnt mean its okay to stalk her. I think everyone here gets James ought to be open to criticism because he launched a project, requested funds, and hasn't produced (though there is also an element of invest at your own risk here too----that is why i dont fund kickstarter projects). But this is the guy's wife, blogging (apparently) about christmas preparations for her children. She doesn't seem like a fair target to me and it seems pretty excessive behavior for someone who put what, twenty to fifty bucks toward a project? If you feel wronged hire a lawyer or make a written foral request to James for your money back. Scoping out his wife's log for a conspiracy theory is just a bit creepy.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;627084This is true, but it also doesn't justify people being jerks about it either. I mean just because a woman posts her address on facebook that doesnt mean its okay to stalk her.
Has IRWS stalked James' wife because he re-posts her blog or facebook comments on his blog? I just want to make sure we are all clear on what stalking actually is. It's a pretty serious charge that shouldn't be thrown about willy-nilly.
Quote from: Endless Flight;627093Has IRWS stalked James' wife because he re-posts her blog or facebook comments on his blog? I just want to make sure we are all clear on what stalking actually is. It's a pretty serious charge that shouldn't be thrown about willy-nilly.
I stalked no one, the link was posted in the comment section of YDIS (http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/are-you-there-bloodymage-its-me-ydis/#comment-5674 (http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/are-you-there-bloodymage-its-me-ydis/#comment-5674)) and here as well (http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/are-you-there-bloodymage-its-me-ydis/#comment-5683). I do not consider following a link provide by someone, stalking.
If you read the blog, you discover that James is busy catching up on pc games, buying new and interesting board games etc. These "daily tasks" are taking place during months of incommunicado and such self professed stressful times.
If you have the time for playing Borderlands 2 for months, you might have some time to update your backers, and even your partners. Heck you might also have time to do some of that work that's over a year late (being a stay at home father and all).
IRWS
Quote from: Endless Flight;627093Has IRWS stalked James' wife because he re-posts her blog or facebook comments on his blog? I just want to make sure we are all clear on what stalking actually is. It's a pretty serious charge that shouldn't be thrown about willy-nilly.
It's creepy, and it crosses the line. You can add whatever other adjectives you like.
Saying "She posted it in public, so she deserves what she gets," sounds an awful lot to me like "She dressed like that in public, so she deserves what she gets". His wife has
nothing to do with this. His kids have
nothing to do with this. She did not invite involvement in this - she does not even mention her husband's name, or this project. Your investment in this Kickstarter does not give you the right to be creepy (and it's that much creepier if you are not even an investor, or already got your money back).
If you don't understand why that behavior is creepy, then that's your own possibly-Asperger's issue. Your inability to comprehend basic social rules is not a justification for such behavior. Nor is your anonymity on the internet a justification for that kind of behavior. A line is being crossed here. Any normally socially adjusted human being should be able to see that right away.
Quote from: I run with scissors;627103I stalked no one, the link was posted in the comment section of YDIS
By someone stalking her, not by her. Are you really not understanding the issue here?
Quote from: Mistwell;627105It's creepy, and it crosses the line. You can add whatever other adjectives you like.
Saying "She posted it in public, so she deserves what she gets," sounds an awful lot to me like "She dressed like that in public, so she deserves what she gets". His wife has nothing to do with this. His kids have nothing to do with this. She did not invite involvement in this - she does not even mention her husband's name, or this project. Your investment in this Kickstarter does not give you the right to be creepy (and it's that much creepier if you are not even an investor, or already got your money back).
If you don't understand why that behavior is creepy, then that's your own possibly-Asperger's issue. Your inability to comprehend basic social rules is not a justification for such behavior. Nor is your anonymity on the internet a justification for that kind of behavior. A line is being crossed here. Any normally socially adjusted human being should be able to see that right away.
You're absolutely right. Reading this thread is starting to make me feel depressed about this site.
Quote from: Endless Flight;627093Has IRWS stalked James' wife because he re-posts her blog or facebook comments on his blog? I just want to make sure we are all clear on what stalking actually is. It's a pretty serious charge that shouldn't be thrown about willy-nilly.
Read my post, i never said anyone was stalking (if anyone is throwing around serious charges it is people accusing James of premeditated fraud). I said IRWS's behavior was creepy and used the facebook stalking example to show that the premise "I can do what I like because she posted something publicly" is flawed. How close to actual stalking behavior IRWS is getting I dont actually know, but he is certainly behaving in a way I consider innapropriate and I do think if I were in James wife's shoes I would be troubled that some guy is so obsessed about this he is examining her blog for details like christmas gift buying. It is creepy. Period.
Look, I agree that James has to be accountable for whatever he has done here, but that doesn't give people license to behave however they like.
Not to mention, a game console or iPad hardly costs 50K... so jumping from that to say "Oh it's the smoking gun showing the money's been blown"... that is ridiculously stupid and over-the-top, on its face, sorry to say. And since it is so ridiculous, it calls into question the kind of twisted mind-frame that makes one say such a thing, and makes the stalkish behavior all the more unsettling.
But really, could we leave his wife and kids out of this?
Quote from: Benoist;627123But really, could we leave his wife and kids out of this?
Just the fact that you have to ask this, regarding an issue to do with a roleplaying game...well...
Humanity...
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mba9f2ZjlC1ru00bs.gif)
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;627118Look, I agree that James has to be accountable for whatever he has done here, but that doesn't give people license to behave however they like.
I wasn't interested in deciding whether Scissor is strange or "creepy". You guys can all debate that. My only issue was whether quoting somebody else's blog/internet/facebook posts and using them for other purposes is considered "stalking". If that's true, then stalking is very rampant online.
Quote from: Endless Flight;627127I wasn't interested in deciding whether Scissor is strange or "creepy". You guys can all debate that. My only issue was whether quoting somebody else's blog/internet/facebook posts and using them for other purposes is considered "stalking". If that's true, then stalking is very rampant online.
It is very rampant online.
Just because the Facebook generation is doing its best to normalize such behavior doesn't make it not stalking.
Quote from: Endless Flight;627127I wasn't interested in deciding whether Scissor is strange or "creepy". You guys can all debate that. My only issue was whether quoting somebody else's blog/internet/facebook posts and using them for other purposes is considered "stalking". If that's true, then stalking is very rampant online.
Stalking has multiple deinitions dpening on hows its used. Here is the wikipedia definition: "Stalking is a term commonly used to refer to unwanted or obsessive attention by an individual or group toward another person. Stalking behaviors are related to harassment and intimidation and may include following the victim in person or monitoring them. The word stalking is used, with some differing meanings, in psychology and psychiatry and also in some legal jurisdictions as a term for a criminal offense"
The issue isnt simply quoting someone it is that IRWS is monitoring James and his wifes activity online obsessively and he even seems to potentially going into the territory of harrasment. Whether he meets the legal deinition of stalking, you would have to ask a lawyer. But he certainly seems to meet the colloquial undertanding of the word.
Quote from: noisms;627115You're absolutely right. Reading this thread is starting to make me feel depressed about this site.
it's really only one or two people acting like creepy stalk-ery assholes. it
should warm your heart to see that more people are pointing out that behavior for what it is and saying "hey, cut that shit out" rather than engaging in it.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;627133"Stalking is a term commonly used to refer to unwanted or obsessive attention by an individual or group toward another person.
Well, that sums up RWS in a nutshell I think.
Creeping around someone's wife's blog to get at personal information about her husband's life is deplorable, shameful behaviour.
I am with Mistwell on this, 100%. And I never thought I'd say that.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Benoist;626927"Dwimmer" is a variation of "dwimor" and "dweomer", which indicates illusion, magic, spells and the like. Dweomercraft is the practice of magic. Dwimmer-mount is "that mountain which is magical/where magic/illusions/deception can be found."
That's a pretty evocative name. I imagine most of the characters I've played would hear that and say "Let's go there!"
I wonder what sorts of iconic images come to mind from different people hearing that description?
Are the very walls magical? Can you trust anything you see there? What is the source of all this magic and illusion?
I remember one of my characters in 3e was a "Gnome Shadowcraft Mage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872354/Shadowcraft_Mage_Handbook)". It started as an experiment in min/maxing, but became a very evocative, role-playing intensive character inspired by the unpredictable direction the rule results were leading me. " a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of his figments with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real." It meant my character could, essentially, cast other spells using a basic illusion spell, and making it partially real, or even fully real, or theoretically hyper-real (theoretically doing even more damage than the original spell it was mimicking, though I never got that far). So, I could use a heightened "minor image" spell to toss a fireball, and when it hit, it would do real damage.
It was a build that came with tremendous flexibility. But it created a philosophical dilemma with my character. What was real? If illusions could be made to seem real, even with direct contact, even with smell and touch and taste and feel, so much so that they could kill you, then what was real, and what did disbelieving mean, and what was everything made of, and what was really the source of this power he was tapping into, and a whole host of maddening issues arose. It was a set of powers that I played as driving my little gnome slowly insane.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand, the description of what "Dwimmermount" could mean reminded me of that character. I imagine the rumor of such a place would attract my character like a moth to a flame. A mountain of illusion magic might contain the answers he was seeking, before it drove him mad.
I agree, the name is totally awesome, in fact.
Quote from: ICFTI;627143it's really only one or two people acting like creepy stalk-ery assholes. it should warm your heart to see that more people are pointing out that behavior for what it is and saying "hey, cut that shit out" rather than engaging in it.
That's true, but it's not the only thing in the thread that doesn't really sit right. There seems to be a lot of mean-spiritedness and bile aimed at James M that I think is motivated more to do with glee at the sight of the mighty laid low than any genuine outrage over lost money. And I speak as somebody who thinks Grognardia hasn't really been worth reading for about 3 or 4 years, lest I be labelled a disciple or whatever.
Quote from: noisms;627182There seems to be a lot of mean-spiritedness and bile aimed at James M that I think is motivated more to do with glee at the sight of the mighty laid low than any genuine outrage over lost money.
fair enough but i think a lot of that is coming from the same handful of creepers, too.
Quote from: Mistwell;627105Saying "She posted it in public, so she deserves what she gets," sounds an awful lot to me like "She dressed like that in public, so she deserves what she gets". .
Um, you're adding all the creepy here. She's not getting anything apart from people reading her blog, which is what bloggers want.
No-one is/has done anything to her. It is a public blog. It might provide indight in Jmals bullshit while he has his head in the sand. You are too busy white knighting to grasp that reading a public blog is not stalking or doing something to someone.
Quote from: J Arcane;627130It is very rampant online.
Just because the Facebook generation is doing its best to normalize such behavior doesn't make it not stalking.
So every time you read an osr blog and it links to another blog or article, that is stalking to you?
Quote from: zarathustra;627208So every time you read an osr blog and it links to another blog or article, that is stalking to you?
My yard is publicly visible.
Doesn't mean it's not wrong to drive by in a van and take pictures of my kids.
Quote from: zarathustra;627206Um, you're adding all the creepy here. She's not getting anything apart from people reading her blog, which is what bloggers want.
No-one is/has done anything to her. It is a public blog. It might provide indight in Jmals bullshit while he has his head in the sand. You are too busy white knighting to grasp that reading a public blog is not stalking or doing something to someone.
Just because something is public does not make it right to spread it all over the internet. Would it be okay to follow you around all day with a video camera and then post it online without your knowledge, provided all the filming took place in public? I mean, if you're walking around in public having a conversation with your wife or girlfriend and I record it and put it online, that's not stalking, is it? Because you're doing it in public, aren't you?
Quote from: zarathustra;627208So every time you read an osr blog and it links to another blog or article, that is stalking to you?
This would be more like reading the blog of an PSR blogger's wife, and using it to prove nefarious things about his personal life. It clearly crosses a line. No one is white knighting here, they are applying a pretty text book definition of stalking to what IRWS is doing. IRWS may have a legitimate complaint against James over Dwimmermount, that doesn't give him license to do whatever the hell he pleases.
Quote from: zarathustra;627206Um, you're adding all the creepy here. She's not getting anything apart from people reading her blog, which is what bloggers want.
No she is getting negative attention from people who are upset with her husband over investments in one of his products. This is not the kind of readership a woman blogging about buying her children christmas presents is seeking.
Well, if no-one else is going to do it, i will.
If people want to start a new thread about this fiasco, they are welcome to do so - but keep innocent parties out of it.
I think this thread is doing no good at this point, so i'm closing it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;627214Well, if no-one else is going to do it, i will.
If people want to start a new thread about this fiasco, they are welcome to do so - but keep innocent parties out of it.
I think this thread is doing no good at this point, so i'm closing it.
Seconded and approved.
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