Quote from: Ghost Whistler;582915This guy is a year late? :O

Hardly. The Kickstarter closed (meaning work would begin at that time) in April of this year.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;582995Hardly. The Kickstarter closed (meaning work would begin at that time) in April of this year.

So it's only been 5 months and people are flipping their lids? Jeeze, welcome to the ADD entitlement culture. I remember the days when you could wait up to a year after an ad for a game appeared in Dragon.

Quote from: TristramEvans;582997So it's only been 5 months and people are flipping their lids? Jeeze, welcome to the ADD entitlement culture. I remember the days when you could wait up to a year after an ad for a game appeared in Dragon.

Did those ads specify a date of release, and then blow it?

According to Kickstarter, the release was supposed to be in August.  Again, I think the issue is less the delay and more the lack of communication from the author.

Quote from: kythri;583000Did those ads specify a date of release, and then blow it?

I can't recall specifically, but I imagine so, though I think release dates were more like "coming in the summer of '85" and things like that.

QuoteAccording to Kickstarter, the release was supposed to be in August.  Again, I think the issue is less the delay and more the lack of communication from the author.

Understandable, I suppose, considering teh authors have internet access, though I guess perhaps I've just become accustomed to independant projects running later than expected. I don't think many people going into it realize how much work it takes to create a finished project when you don't have a staff of creators working for you and you have to hold down a regular job. I guess I'm making excuses for the guy when I don't really know him and haven't followed the project beyond this thread, but I think some people are really too upset about the blog posts, as if they compare to the act of laying out, formatting and editting an actual book.

Quote from: kythri;583000Did those ads specify a date of release, and then blow it?

All the time. Many still do.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583003I can't recall specifically, but I imaguine so. I think release dates were more like "coming in the summer of '85" and things like that.

Which usually meant winter of 86

Quote from: kythri;583000According to Kickstarter, the release was supposed to be in August.  Again, I think the issue is less the delay and more the lack of communication from the author.

didn't he just post an update on the 14th?

Quote from: Doctor Jest;582995Hardly. The Kickstarter closed (meaning work would begin at that time) in April of this year. (emphasis added - BV)

Uh, that's not what that means - that's how you choose to interpret it.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;583009Uh, that's not what that means - that's how you choose to interpret it.

No, that's exactly what it means.

Since kickstarter is designed to find the creation of the project, as explicitly stated by kickstarter on the website, it's only reasonable to assume creation would begin when the creator receives the funds. It's simple plain logic.

Kickstarter funds creation of a project
Without funds, the project will not be created
Once the creator receives funds, they will create the project
Ergo, when the kickstarter ends is when creation begins.

Unless the creator tells you otherwise, like they say they have a finished manuscript in the kickstarter description, you should assume that the project hasn't started yet, because that's the whole point of kickstarter.

Again, kickstarter isnt a way to pre-order something, it's helping to fund its creation. You are a patron, not a customer. You are funding a project, not purchasing a product.

This is a common misunderstanding, one kickstarter itself has been trying to dispel, sometimes through some controversial rules it's recently implemented.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;583011It's simple plain logic.

Bullshit.

The guy who created random storytelling dice had a finished prototype done to show when he started his Kickstarter - the kickstart was the funds to produce the dice in quantity.

You're talking about this like it's sort of law of nature, and that's absolutely untrue, as a simple perusal of the projects on Kickstarter shows.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;583012Bullshit.

The guy who created random storytelling dice had a finished prototype done to show when he started his Kickstarter - the kickstart was the funds to produce the dice in quantity.

You're talking about this like it's sort of law of nature, and that's absolutely untrue, as a simple perusal of the projects on Kickstarter shows.

if you would read what I wrote more carefully, I clearly said that unless the creator tells you explicitly that they have part of the project completed, you should not assume that's the case,

Creators do need to explainly clearly what they are asking for money for and what the project's scope is. However, the expectation that a kickstarter will automatically begin with a finished product and is only seeking money for mass production is unfounded, unless that's explicitly stated as the case. In that case, the scope of the project is different. You wouldn't expect work on mass production to begin before they had the money, would you?

Find where on the kickstarter FAQ it says that kickstarters will always involve a finished product?

I am a backer of the Doublefine Adventure game, which they only started development on once the kickstarter reached its funding goal. They're still writing the game, even though the kickstarter ended moths ago. Are you saying they should have paid a bunch of programmers to write the code before they had the money to pay them? It's absurd. No one expected a finished product right away.

It's just Entitlement that makes people feel they can demand something immediately and if there are delays in the production of a project then it's "a scam" or some nonsense.

Understand what the fuck a kickstarter is before climbing on a high horse.

Quote from: Endless Flight;582975Yeah, but didn't James have copious notes to refine the final product from? It's not like he's pulling the final draft from thin air. Hasn't Dwimmermount been in his brain for twenty years (not really sure when he started it)?

To answer those, in order: No and no.

Dwimmermount was created in 2009. His notes consist of things like "3. mm scroll" and "8. Graffiti - Seek not the gods!".

Nor, it should be noted, were these things secret. I was a little surprised by just how minimal the key was; but James has talked about super-minimal dungeon keys on Grognardia repeatedly.

Quote from: kythri;583000According to Kickstarter, the release was supposed to be in August.  Again, I think the issue is less the delay and more the lack of communication from the author.

June for the finished PDFs, actually. (August for the published books.)

Quote from: Doctor Jest;583011No, that's exactly what it means.

Since kickstarter is designed to find the creation of the project, as explicitly stated by kickstarter on the website, it's only reasonable to assume creation would begin when the creator receives the funds. It's simple plain logic.

More than logic: Anyone looking at the description of the Dwimmermount Kickstarter would have read, "As a backer, we'll strive to provide you with opportunities to experience Dwimmermount as a player. You'll get maps and legends you can use to run it for others. And you'll get each successive draft of the text, so you can watch how your experience of turning the written dungeon into a living realm of mystery and danger reflects James' reverse process of making his campaign notes into a form usable by others."

If, as a backer, you're receiving successive drafts and providing feedback throughout that process, the book clearly hasn't been written yet.

Quote from: kythri;582960What happened there?  I don't recall any issues with my pre-order...

The project suffered significant delays and was at least 6 months late by the time it finished. Not the end of the universe, but enough that I didn't feel like ponying up large sums of cash for their next pre-orders. (At least in part because, IIRC, when those pre-orders were happening, I was still waiting for the overdue delivery of my last $125 pre-order. I might be more open to the idea of supporting a Frog God pre-order now.)

Quote from: Doctor Jest;583007didn't he just post an update on the 14th?

After how long?  (and, only after the shitstorm touched down.)

Quote from: Doctor Jest;582991What reason do you have to believe that the money is being used for living expenses in lieu of the printing costs?

[Dwimmermount update #24]

Delays in writing are something James has to take responsibility for, but since I was the primary author of the Kickstarter project page I bear the brunt of the responsibility for not clearly communicating that your backing would be used to support James' time in writing up the dungeon from his notes. If you thought that Dwimmermount was all but finished and just needed to be polished and published, the state of affairs I'm sketching in these updates is understandably upsetting and I can only apologize for my failure to give you the correct impression from the beginning.

[End quote]

This might have something to do with it.

There clearly was some over-hype going on. When you sell your dungeon as, paraphrasing, the 'legendary' Dwimmermount, the great OSR work, pinacle of what the 'movement' can produce, the thing 'everyone has been waiting for', this gives people peripherically reading the blog the impression that the dungeon has been run for a while and benefited from years of organic campaign building and great general acclaim over those years of existence. It just was not the case. It's not a cause per se, but it participates to some funders going "huh?" now, certainly.