So back in the spring in a fit of Tolkien rpg nostalgia I backed the KS for the new edition of The One Ring being published by Free League. I had never actually played the first edition , but had checked out some of their Adventures in Middle Earth products, which I disliked, largely because it seemed like they were just shoehorning too many mechanics into the game in an attempt to essentially make players relive The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. In particular they had all these rules for journeys, audiences, patrons, etc. And what I found quite annoying is that they all seemed to involve lots of dice rolling to essentially predetermine outcomes that really should just be roleplayed. In fact, I find this to be true of a lot of so-called "modern" storytelling games. They claim to be all about the roleplaying experience rather than roll playing, but in practice it's kind of the opposite.
Free League said that they were changing the rules some to streamline this and I decided to back the game in part because of this and because I liked the look of it. So, fast forward to a few weeks ago and we got the pdfs for the new version of The One Ring. And it's still kind of a convoluted mechanical mess with way too many fiddly rules, extra die mechanics and the like for something trying to call itself rules light. However, over the past few months I've been watching lots of reviews of the old MERP system from Iron Crown on youtube. I have nearly the complete run of MERP products. And in fact, while it is a bit heavy on the rolls and tables, the basic mechanics are in fact more unified and simpler than TOR. Plus, I already know how to play it. And, while one could argue that the "feel" isn't quite authentic to Tolkien's vision, for me that's actually a strength. I don't want to replay LOTR, I just want to game in Middle Earth (some of the time, at least). The MERP products are actually much more creative & open-ended than any subsequent Middle Earth RPG has been. So I think I'll just convert the new TOR material back to MERP and start a new campaign next year or simply sell the TOR stuff and stick entirely with MERP.
So this got me curious as to what other out of print games are people playing and why? Is it pure nostalgia? Familiar and/or superior mechanics? All of the above? I guess with places like Drivethru around, many things aren't really entirely out of print these days, but I was just curious. I know lots of games or IP's have gone through various iterations & companies and it's fun to see why people favor specific versions.
Lol how dare they try to make me simulate The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings in a game called Adventures in Middle Earth? Just poking fun at you no harm meant.
I'm running an AD&D 2e game which is a pure nostalgia kick for me and most of the players. However, it was brought on by our one friends who is significantly younger than us who'd never played 2e and wanted to give the old school a try.
I was on the fence with the Kickstarter and decided not to fund. I fell for the nostalgia/collector impulse with the first edition, and it never hit the table. I think LOTR RPGs are a tough sell. I didn't like the look and feel of the new edition, it reminded me too much of Symbaorum:
https://www.symbaroum.com/
Which I like, but not for Middle Earth.
I know what you're saying about the ICE version. It's not perfect, but there's something about the line that draws me in. Maybe it's the Old School straight-forwardness. Or the passion the ICE team had for the source material.
Quote from: Aglondir on November 05, 2021, 11:58:19 AM
I was on the fence with the Kickstarter and decided not to fund. I fell for the nostalgia/collector impulse with the first edition, and it never hit the table. I think LOTR RPGs are a tough sell. I didn't like the look and feel of the new edition, it reminded me too much of Symbaorum:
https://www.symbaroum.com/
Which I like, but not for Middle Earth.
I know what you're saying about the ICE version. It's not perfect, but there's something about the line that draws me in. Maybe it's the Old School straight-forwardness. Or the passion the ICE team had for the source material.
IMHO LotR, John Carter, Star Wars, Buck Rogers and similar games based on an IP suffer from the fact that you either play as the main characters of the books/movies/tv shows or you can never be THE HERO. You can be a hero but never the protagonist of the main arch unless you're playing the main arch and who wants to play the main arch? It's not a railroad, it's worst than that.
Much better to take the core principles/motiffs and build a game around those, free from the constraints of the known lore/canon of the IP that inspired the game.
But that's just my opinion man.
Not playing again...yet, but still worth a reply.
I went down one of my rabbit holes a couple weeks ago and started to revisit LBB Traveller. This is the second time in as many days I am mentioning it, so it is only a matter of time before I crack open a fresh new composition notebook and start designing a campaign.
IMHO LotR, John Carter, Star Wars, Buck Rogers and similar games based on an IP suffer from the fact that you either play as the main characters of the books/movies/tv shows or you can never be THE HERO. You can be a hero but never the protagonist of the main arch unless you're playing the main arch and who wants to play the main arch? It's not a railroad, it's worst than that.
Much better to take the core principles/motiffs and build a game around those, free from the constraints of the known lore/canon of the IP that inspired the game.
But that's just my opinion man.
[/quote]
That's a valid point. So one of the things I really like about MERP is that the default time frame is the middle of the Third Age, about 1400 years before The Hobbit/LOTR. So, you've got enough things that are familiar, but you can also fight the forces of the Witch King of Angmar, etc., and not be too worried about screwing with the canon, if that's what you're worried about. And they developed lots of places Tolkien never really details, like Harad, so you can pretty much go nuts down fighting ringwraiths and their minions or whatever. But, if you really want, you can still interact with Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, etc., and they do give stats for all the LOTR heroes if you really wanted to play late Third Age. The later Middle Earth games don't allow for that because they set their adventures in the late Third Age so you're kind of constrained by canon. And then TOR really tries to reinforce this with their gimmicky "phases" system that shoehorn you into journeys, audiences, fellowship phases, etc. I'm sure that appeals to some, but I prefer a bit more freedom in plot and adventure construction.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 05, 2021, 12:20:26 PMIMHO LotR, John Carter, Star Wars, Buck Rogers and similar games based on an IP suffer from the fact that you either play as the main characters of the books/movies/tv shows or you can never be THE HERO. You can be a hero but never the protagonist of the main arch unless you're playing the main arch and who wants to play the main arch? It's not a railroad, it's worst than that.
You can always play with that.
I ran a campaign of MERP / RM in which the party met Thorin just after he met with Gandalf. Thorin hedged his bets by offering the party their weight in gold if they slay Smaug. Ultimately, they did, but after a full year of playing every other week. They did meet the 'company' twice along the way. The final combat also killed about 2/3 of the party. I totally allowed them to change 'history'.
I'm currently playing in two 4e D&D campaigns (Nentir Vale & Forgotten Realms) and should be GMing it in a couple weeks.
Last year I ran a 28 session Mini Six campaign set in Primeval Thule.
Quote from: Lynn on November 05, 2021, 01:23:10 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 05, 2021, 12:20:26 PMIMHO LotR, John Carter, Star Wars, Buck Rogers and similar games based on an IP suffer from the fact that you either play as the main characters of the books/movies/tv shows or you can never be THE HERO. You can be a hero but never the protagonist of the main arch unless you're playing the main arch and who wants to play the main arch? It's not a railroad, it's worst than that.
You can always play with that.
I ran a campaign of MERP / RM in which the party met Thorin just after he met with Gandalf. Thorin hedged his bets by offering the party their weight in gold if they slay Smaug. Ultimately, they did, but after a full year of playing every other week. They did meet the 'company' twice along the way. The final combat also killed about 2/3 of the party. I totally allowed them to change 'history'.
That's the only other way to play in those universes, you have to allow the party to destroy canon. Which is fine and dandy if the party:
a) doesn't know/care about the canon.
b) knows/cares but is fine with going against it.
Building your own world inspired by frees you from any constraints placed on you by the IP's lore.
Now you can be THE HERO not just a hero. Doesn't mean you'll be but you totally can.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 05, 2021, 01:37:13 PM
That's the only other way to play in those universes, you have to allow the party to destroy canon. Which is fine and dandy if the party:
a) doesn't know/care about the canon.
b) knows/cares but is fine with going against it.
Building your own world inspired by frees you from any constraints placed on you by the IP's lore.
Now you can be THE HERO not just a hero. Doesn't mean you'll be but you totally can.
When I ran it, I did not reveal how I would handle canon to the players. It got especially interesting when the players knew that Bilbo should already have had the One Ring.
One of the modules / settings of MERP includes a 'Lesser Ring of Power' which the party found. The member that held it felt a strange attraction to Bilbo, but they didn't pursue it.
I have to say that the MERP products were for the most part, really good. The first campaign setting "The Courts of Ardor" which happens in the far south of ME was especially clever.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 05, 2021, 01:37:13 PM
Quote from: Lynn on November 05, 2021, 01:23:10 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 05, 2021, 12:20:26 PMIMHO LotR, John Carter, Star Wars, Buck Rogers and similar games based on an IP suffer from the fact that you either play as the main characters of the books/movies/tv shows or you can never be THE HERO. You can be a hero but never the protagonist of the main arch unless you're playing the main arch and who wants to play the main arch? It's not a railroad, it's worst than that.
Building your own world inspired by frees you from any constraints placed on you by the IP's lore.
Now you can be THE HERO not just a hero. Doesn't mean you'll be but you totally can.
I have my own world. But sometimes we want to play in Middle Earth. So we play various iterations of D&D in my setting and MERP in Middle Earth. I've also converted and modified some MERP modules for my settings because their maps and layouts tend to be pretty good. For example I converted Dol Guldur to White Doom Mountain and Gundabad to Mount Faengmar.
The strength of the MERP line was the fact that ICE knew that it was the setting, not replaying the stories, that drew people to Middle Earth. There's no canon protection in the line anywhere (except maybe the NPC books which focused on high level play—but just about RM2 stuff assumes you're going the 50+ level mode).
Their setting and adventure books focus on the world and enjoying it. And yes, it's not exactly Tolkinesque (more than it gets credit for, because Tolkien himself doesn't fit a lot of purists' expectations), but they did a good job of making a Middle Earth that is actually good for gaming.
Here I was thinking this thread would be about am out of print version of a Back to the Future RPG.
Which...could be good? Maybe?
I've said it many times - I find it bizarre my most popular game for my group is me running MSH. It literally came out of nowhere, I had to really convince them to try it, (we were all hardcore D&D players), but once they got the taste.... the hooks were in. Now whenever we decide to fire up a new campaign it's *always* on the list of possibilities.
So MSH, WoD 20th Anniversary editions, Talislanta (any edition), Atlantis are the only out of print games that really will have a chance to be played at my table.
OOP games that I'd run in a heartbeat if my players asked - AD&D 1e/2e, WEG Star Wars, NWoD.
Quote from: Persimmon on November 05, 2021, 10:42:13 AM
So this got me curious as to what other out of print games are people playing and why? Is it pure nostalgia? Familiar and/or superior mechanics? All of the above? I guess with places like Drivethru around, many things aren't really entirely out of print these days, but I was just curious. I know lots of games or IP's have gone through various iterations & companies and it's fun to see why people favor specific versions.
I still go with the Serenity RPG (with the Big Damn Heroes rules) because I like the game mechanic. I'll never play Firefly though because it's pretty much Fate mechanics.
Playing in an online Marvel Superheroes game (first version, adventure 'Time trap')and aside from suffering the forums dice roller which totally hates me (I had a run of 2-3 successful rolls to start with followed by a dozen or more consecutive white failure results) it's ok. I can see why I liked it enough to play it to death back in the day but aside from playing in one shots have no desire to run it again ever.
GMing half a dozen ongoing campaigns in play by post using the Blood of Heroes 2nd edition rules (based on DC Heroes 3rd edition). Yes, the art is gash but the rules and game are solid enough. It's house ruled to our requirements (increasing speed and dropping reliance/dependence on hero points) and combat zips along. Some systems make an online play by post a total drag with combat but this works fine now. Another game I ran and had fun with was Golden Heroes, which has a great combat system. Unfortunately it's on the lower end of the power scale so we switched to DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes after several years but I still hanker after starting up a new campaign using Golden Heroes again. The play by post campaign is in it's 12th year now.
Also considering running BECMI D&D albeit with some borrowed from Tunnels and Trolls house rules. Namely take all the ability adjustments (including Charisma) to use as 'Combat prowess' and roll 1D20 for an attack total. Opponent does the same. Highest total wins the combat round and the difference in scores is added to by the weapon used (D8 for sword etc). Armour reduces damage from its own Armour Point score before coming off the character's hit points.
This gets rid of the 'whiff factor' where everyone misses all the time and I was also considering a critical hit system (I loved MERP for this back in the day). A player can take damage from their hit points or roll 1D6 and take it from a stat instead. A hit to the head might reduce Intelligence or Wisdom, to the face maybe Charisma. To the gut, Constitution and legs/arms Dex or Str. That way they might survive the 1st level lethality but an injury that is long term or permanent might give them other things to think about. Retire, seek healing and rest, or press on and pray you don't get whacked in the head again.
Group combat would be a matter of adding each sides totals together, comparing them and dividing the damage as equally as possible. Missile and Spell combat have slightly different rules. Still in the planning stage.
I guess I feel the need to tinker because I've run these things for years in the past and fancy putting my own stamp on it. Also to make it work better for play by post which is my only means of GMing/playing these days.
I still have most all of my old M.E.R.P. products from Iron Crown Enterprises. Which is still my go-to for any Middle-Earth fix i might ever need. It does a far
better job with the setting than anything i've seen since, though i've not heard until now of the Kickstarter in question.
As mentioned above, the flexibility in M.E.R.P. allowed you to start a game in the Second Age or (most commonly) the middle of the Third Age, right after
the great plague (Many of the modules had adventures set in this period, close enough to the events of the War of the Rings, yet far enough to allow your
own campaign to develop without being overshadowed by the books)
Always made me curious about Rolemaster, but i never really had the money for those books too back then.
Other games i still play/look through/plan to play again someday would include Tunnels and Trolls, Warhammer FRP (still have my 1st printing), and every
now and then a one-shot of Paranoia (1st or the cleaned up 2nd edition) is always good clean fun, though i was sorely dissapointed in the latest edition.
I also still like Stormbringer (have 2nd and 4th edition) and would gladly play it again... though it seems pretty forgotten by many these days.
Currently running out-of-print
B/X
Lords of Creation
Ready to run out-of-print
AD&D (1e or 2e)
Star Wars d6 (I know, I know...they just reprinted it)
Top Secret/SI*
MERP
Star Frontiers
* I really like the system they used in the 2nd edition even though I preferred the more Le Carre like style/setting of the 1st
Would refresh myself on the rules if my group wanted to play
James Bond
MSPE
Space 1889
(TF)2V
Lords of Creation ;D so wild
We are wrapping a OD&D (houseruled! Of course) set in 1666. Everyone is a nun. Sr. Mary Roberta is mother superior. Their quest is about to run into clockwork musketeers and Margaret Mary Alacoque.
INT points for knowing without a lookup.
Quote from: soundchaser on November 09, 2021, 10:16:54 PM
Lords of Creation ;D so wild
We are wrapping a OD&D (houseruled! Of course) set in 1666. Everyone is a nun. Sr. Mary Roberta is mother superior. Their quest is about to run into clockwork musketeers and Margaret Mary Alacoque.
INT points for knowing without a lookup.
Something to do with the devotion to the Sacred Heart?
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 10, 2021, 08:41:32 AM
Quote from: soundchaser on November 09, 2021, 10:16:54 PM
Lords of Creation ;D so wild
We are wrapping a OD&D (houseruled! Of course) set in 1666. Everyone is a nun. Sr. Mary Roberta is mother superior. Their quest is about to run into clockwork musketeers and Margaret Mary Alacoque.
INT points for knowing without a lookup.
Something to do with the devotion to the Sacred Heart?
In a way, yes... good job. She is 19 years old in our scenario, so prior to entering at age 24...
That's must be one of weirdest picks for OD&D, but so be it.
I am also running a The Blood of Heroes game. Finished Issue 15 this morning. I first tried running this campaign setting with Champions and I was not enjoying it. I changed to tBoH and it has been fun and the campaign has a faster pace. The Hero Point meta-currency is doing exactly what it should, supporting the players heroic roleplay. I highly recommend tBoH (and DC Heroes for that matter (drop the DC Universe and build your own!)) for running and playing super hero games.
Quote from: moonsweeper on November 09, 2021, 12:32:03 AM
Currently running out-of-print
B/X
Lords of Creation
Ready to run out-of-print
AD&D (1e or 2e)
Star Wars d6 (I know, I know...they just reprinted it)
Top Secret/SI*
MERP
Star Frontiers
* I really like the system they used in the 2nd edition even though I preferred the more Le Carre like style/setting of the 1st
Would refresh myself on the rules if my group wanted to play
James Bond
MSPE
Space 1889
(TF)2V
Loves me some Top Secret/S.I. Another out of print gem is Spycraft 1e with Shadowforce Archer.