I wasn't thinking so much about hull breach (although i mention it) as I was about a bullet bouncing around isnide the ship because it doesn't breach. As far as the guns for propulsion goes, I wasn't thinking about bullets at all, but
I hadn't really gone much further than that.

Also, as said above, you're all talking about hard SF, I wasn't. My physics doesn't really go past the simplist newtonian stuff, and I don't even pretend an understanding of how that applies to firearms.

Quote from: SosthenesOkay, to get back on topic: From a Hard SF point of view, it would be quite hard to find something about the human brain that could not be replicated with a sufficiently able computer -- without entering the supernatural. So if the FTL drive is totally understood, human-only navigation seems a bit far-fedged.

Damn, now I'm trying to remember my college psychology and human behavior classes because the difference between the human brain and a computer were discussed. I remember that we concluded that a computer would be hard-pressed to think like a human (or anything organic) because of the way the neurons are attached together in the brain. Where a computer must execute a program along a linear pathway defined by its circuitry, a human brain is wired much more haphazardly and with more connections by neurons - so the same thought that led to a conclusion yesterday could travel along an entirely different route and lead to a slightly different conclusion today.

Crap, I'm sure I'm not making any sense here. Let me get off work and go through my library at home.

Quote from: jeff37923Damn, now I'm trying to remember my college psychology and human behavior classes because the difference between the human brain and a computer were discussed. I remember that we concluded that a computer would be hard-pressed to think like a human (or anything organic) because of the way the neurons are attached together in the brain. Where a computer must execute a program along a linear pathway defined by its circuitry, a human brain is wired much more haphazardly and with more connections by neurons - so the same thought that led to a conclusion yesterday could travel along an entirely different route and lead to a slightly different conclusion today.

I'm certainly no authority on the subject, but I think that's no general problem but a limitation of the current technology. If FTL doesn't happen over night, the overall tech level will probably be pretty high. With enough effort thrown at it, _simulating_ the part of the brain that's neccesary for astrogation should be doable. If this means cloning (parts of) an actual human brain and attaching some nano-wires to it, so be it.

Quote from: HalfjackWell "Dune" relies on enhanced humans for FTL navigation that is somehow intrinsically impossible for computers.  I think it's a bit mystical, but if mystical is part of the theme it works for me.

It's explicitly mystical, they take a drug that allows them to use a form of focussed precognition, without that navigation is impossible.

Quote from: BalbinusIt's explicitly mystical, they take a drug that allows them to use a form of focussed precognition, without that navigation is impossible.

Hmmm... I thought they had to do that because humans couldn't get as good as computers. In other words I thought the computers were fast enough to just calculate all options through sheer brute force... humans on the other hand needed  a clue or two or four from the future. It's one of the reasons they were banned, they could out think humans. Stupid, but really really fucking fast.

I've always figured even if your ship's hull won't be penetrated by personal weapons fire, it's entirely possible that small arms fire will rip through the inner hull and bounce around inside valuable systems, ripping up power cables and air ducts and the like. Republic Marine boarding actions are conducted with hardened rubber/plastic assault rifle rounds, shotguns, and big fuck-off shiny knives. Plus some power armor and, if it's an enemy capital ship, a modified boarding tank for those big-ass hangars and open areas.

But I just like the image of a boarding craft slamming into an alien ship, the front shell blasting off, and a low-slung tank with under-hull flamethrowers and a 10-gauge gatling shotgun on the turret rolling out to utterly demoralize the defenders.

Quote from: darHmmm... I thought they had to do that because humans couldn't get as good as computers. In other words I thought the computers were fast enough to just calculate all options through sheer brute force... humans on the other hand needed  a clue or two or four from the future. It's one of the reasons they were banned, they could out think humans. Stupid, but really really fucking fast.

IIRC....

FTL navigation is impossible for humans without precognition, as Herbert saw it. With the Spice, a Navigator can see the one course between the stars that will get the ship safely to its destination.

Regarding the ban on thinking machines, "they thought building these things would free them, but it only allowed those who controlled the thinking machines to enslave them", or something to that effect. It's a popular revolution, more or less, intended to free humanity from the control of artificial intelligence. There are echoes of it in the 40K Great Crusade to free humanity of alien tyranny.

This is all off the top of my head, but I'm there in intent if not in wording.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI've always figured even if your ship's hull won't be penetrated by personal weapons fire, it's entirely possible that small arms fire will rip through the inner hull and bounce around inside valuable systems, ripping up power cables and air ducts and the like. Republic Marine boarding actions are conducted with hardened rubber/plastic assault rifle rounds, shotguns, and big fuck-off shiny knives. Plus some power armor and, if it's an enemy capital ship, a modified boarding tank for those big-ass hangars and open areas.

That's true -- it's sort of intrinsic to boarding that you want to keep the ship intact for some reason.  Letting off explosives and laser fire inside would reduce the salvage value even if hull integrity is retained.  Your defenders might be less motivated to preserve the ship in the face of assault, though.  Actually that meshes nicely with invaders in powered armour and big knives versus defenders in duty uniforms and laser rifles.

QuoteBut I just like the image of a boarding craft slamming into an alien ship, the front shell blasting off, and a low-slung tank with under-hull flamethrowers and a 10-gauge gatling shotgun on the turret rolling out to utterly demoralize the defenders.

Wow, now that I've heard it, so do I.    I think my Traveller game just lifted off again.

Quote from: jeff37923Damn, now I'm trying to remember my college psychology and human behavior classes because the difference between the human brain and a computer were discussed. I remember that we concluded that a computer would be hard-pressed to think like a human (or anything organic) because of the way the neurons are attached together in the brain. Where a computer must execute a program along a linear pathway defined by its circuitry, a human brain is wired much more haphazardly and with more connections by neurons - so the same thought that led to a conclusion yesterday could travel along an entirely different route and lead to a slightly different conclusion today.

Crap, I'm sure I'm not making any sense here. Let me get off work and go through my library at home.

The Chaos Drive

An FTL drive system that travels through points in the universe and extremely rapid speeds by side stepping into a chaotic alternate dimension, C-Space, where the flow and structure of space and time are considerably more inconsistent.  Travel through this space works by slipping through waves in the fabric of this chaotic space-time, following the ripples in order to reach the corresponding destination point in the chaos universe faster than is possible in our own universe.

The chaotic nature of C-Space however, is such that the flow of these ripples and waves is utterly unpredictable, which makes computer navigation impossible.  A trained navigator however, due to the often chaotic, unpredictable nature of the human brain, is implicitly able to fathom this chaotic space in a way that a computer simply cannot by designed to do.

This has proved vexing to the vicious Mechanomen, whose computerized brains are incapable of understanding the ebb and flow of C-Space, and have been forced to utilize more brute force methods of extreme sublight thrust, as well as stabilized wormholes.  It is this, and only this, that prevents them from being truly unstoppable, and wiping organic life from the universe.

Should they ever find a way to capture and harness a Navigator, mankind may well be doomed . . .

There you go.  An FTL drive powered by human nature.  

Quote from: Christmas ApeBut I just like the image of a boarding craft slamming into an alien ship, the front shell blasting off, and a low-slung tank with under-hull flamethrowers and a 10-gauge gatling shotgun on the turret rolling out to utterly demoralize the defenders.

yeah, that part just gave me a HUGE hardware/tech woody.  may have to dual-stat that thing in CT/MT and "cthulhu rising" (loving those tech pdfs on their site).

as they used to say in white dwarf mag "DAKA DAKA DAKA"

Quote from: Christmas ApeI've always figured even if your ship's hull won't be penetrated by personal weapons fire, it's entirely possible that small arms fire will rip through the inner hull and bounce around inside valuable systems, ripping up power cables and air ducts and the like. Republic Marine boarding actions are conducted with hardened rubber/plastic assault rifle rounds, shotguns, and big fuck-off shiny knives. Plus some power armor and, if it's an enemy capital ship, a modified boarding tank for those big-ass hangars and open areas.

Shipboard marine detachments in today's (well, 15 years ago when I was in) Navy carry shotguns and have flechette rounds for the underslung grenade launchers on the M-16s. I remember getting a briefing when I got onboard about the flechette rounds, the marines just would poke the rifle around a corner in a boarding action and fire one off - everything in the corridor got sprayed with needles.


And I can't find my old psychology textbook, damnit.