Quote from: Elliot Wilen...delendi sunt.

These elves don't suck:

That does sound very cool, I have to say. Also, great cover image. So this is one of those Ares games? I wonder if they're selling pdfs of individual issues, as opposed to 50 bucks for a complete Ares CD...

You're in luck:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~avalon11/IMPRINT/MasterDownloads.htm#ARES%20Magazine

Or if you prefer the whole run, on CD or not:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~avalon11/IMPRINT/ARES%20Magazine%20Archive/ARESArchive.htm

QuoteNot elves, per se, but Greg Stolze and I riffed off of one another for a twist on faeries for Unknown Armies, where they're actually the ghosts of unborn children, totally inhuman in their outlook, and will shave ten years of aging off if you can swallow one.

I'm reminded of the Torchwood episode, in which it turns out that fairies are actually evil, murderous, pan-dimensional beings who reproduce by kidnapping children and corrupting them into one of their own.

The surest way to awesomize Elves is for them to be drawn by Brom.

Regards,
David R

Never heard of him. But now I have. I think his elves are a little too pretty in a fashion photography kind of way. They look like the "edgy" shoots on The Next Top Model.

EDIT...some exhibits:

Exhibit A
Exhibit B

I like this though. If there were just a little bit less skin it'd be a great pocket SF book cover from the 60's. But...not an elf.

Quote from: Elliot WilenThey look like the "edgy" shoots on The Next Top Model.

Maybe, but as someone (me) who can't stand Elves, the eye candy is welcome. Also Brom's depictions fit in nicely with the "cruel elves" vibe I aim for.

Regards,
David R

[Edit: D'oh! Nevermind -- I see that somebody else pimped vs. Elves for me ]

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNot elves, per se, but Greg Stolze and I riffed off of one another for a twist on faeries for Unknown Armies, where they're actually the ghosts of unborn children, totally inhuman in their outlook, and will shave ten years of aging off if you can swallow one.

I thought that was a brilliantly creepy idea when I first read it. Good job!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaGetting back to actual elves, and I know that this take has proven controversial, I like the Gloranthan version of elves.  They possess both the Man rune and the Plant rune, so they are, in effect, sentient, mobile plants.  I much prefer the older, more orthodox interpretation that portrays them as looking, for all intents and purposes, just like humans, but with a few botanical traits showing through here and there.  The version depicted in the Mongoose RQ looked awful.

Agreed on all counts.  I always loved the aldryami in RQ.  I love the 'greenman' look to them in one of the HeroWars/Quest books.  The Mongoose picture of them was ass.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOh, and further evidence for II: Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéans.  Cold, cruel, inhuman, resplendent in their decline.  After their final passing, humanity remembers them as "elves", or euphemistically as "the fair folk".  WH40K's Eldar are very much space-faring Melnibonéans.

It must be pointed out of course, that "Eldar" is a term from Tolkien.  And I will go to the mat to say that I'm one of the (seemingly) few gamers who actually likes Tolkien's elves.

Well, I tried in my old Runequest campaign, The Isle Between

The old race were the peers of the gods.  In fact they elected the gods to bear the mantles from their own number and the old gods were just and dedicated servants of their fellows.

Then came the great betrayal when the foremost administrators of the gods stole the mantles and murdered their holders.  Only three escaped, the bearers of the mantles of darkness, night, and the north west wind.

In the wake of the war that followed, the supporters of the new gods were rewarded with rich and comfortable homes and solitude.  These are the Alfair, dwelling in the lonesome depths of the wilderness in towers of glass and magic, seldom breeding, ever dwindling, lost in their peculiar fascinations, neglected and cast off by the gods.

The last followers of the old gods wander the darkness of the world.  Ever seeking justice and revenge.  These are the Dain alien and heartless, twisted by their long guerilla war.

The followers of the darkness have grown strong in the deep places beneath the earth.  Growing large and terrible they have become massive and black as the night itself.  Soon they will lead their twisted minions up from the depths to make war once more.

Of the followers of the northwest wind, no tale tells.  Perhaps they were all destroyed in the war.  Or perhaps they became the Dain, and forgot their god in their all consuming quest.  Folklore places the north west wind on the roads, a beggared stranger wandering the earth never able to rest in one place for fear of the new gods finding him.  Some link him with the mysterious stranger who stands at the beginning and the end of all tales of the Scora.

The other races are all descended from the old race, warped and twisted by the wild magics that were released into the world when the mantle of balance was torn in battle.  Of these, mortal men, least touched by the wild magic are the new favourites of the gods.  Humble, pathetic creatures, ever willing to serve for cast offs and trinkets.

But though the war is long past, the harm it has done is slowly unravelling the edges of the world and is after five thousand years arriving at the isle between.

Quote from: zombenI always loved the aldryami in RQ.  I love the 'greenman' look to them in one of the HeroWars/Quest books.  The Mongoose picture of them was ass.



It must be pointed out of course, that "Eldar" is a term from Tolkien.  And I will go to the mat to say that I'm one of the (seemingly) few gamers who actually likes Tolkien's elves.

Both of those are okay by me. I like Tolkien's elves--just not when they're extracted from Middle Earth and...somehow...annoyified.

Quote from: zombenI thought that was a brilliantly creepy idea when I first read it. Good job!

Thanks!

Quote...I will go to the mat to say that I'm one of the (seemingly) few gamers who actually likes Tolkien's elves.

I always liked Tolkien's elves, in part because he made a point of emphasising how unpleasant dealing with them could be.  I recall the first time I read "The Hobbit" and the dwarves were seriously whigged about the nasty elves in Mirkwood, who did, in fact, prove to be very unpleasant.  The elves of Rivendell were rather too twee, but the elves of Lothlorien were a bunch of lotus eaters with a grudge.

!i!

Quote from: David JohansenWell, I tried in my old Runequest campaign, The Isle Between

The old race were the peers of the gods....

I fucking love this.  I may have to steal all of it and run this myself.

I basically took the piss when I wrote my D&D homebrew setting, but it ended up being mechanically different then D&D, so I'm writing it up with True20. (Actually the True20 you find in Blue Rose, because I like that system more, and so does Brantai.) Essentially, I wanted to explain the assumptions behind your typical fantasy setting and D&D, including immortal elves, if people evolved or not, and the question of inherant evil.

One problem: elves are actually pretty dull as written, and don't make a lot of damn sense. My solution, and I did have one, is below.

First, I asked why elves are immortal. This always seemed kind of fan-wank to me. I was down with it when Tolkien did it, but after that, elves really kind of lost the thoughtful background that made that whole deal work. My answer was that elves were the rapidly evolved slave species of an ancient and sorcerous lizard-people kingdom. These lizard-people evolved (or devolved) from primordial dragon races, but what they lost in magnitude, they made up with society and numbers. They engineered the elves from tree-dwelling proto-humans, which is where they get their -2 Con. but don't lose Str. They want to have lighter frames, and improved reflexes, but can't afford to lose too much upper body strength.

When the lizard-people kingdom fell into ruin (a whole other deal), these elves developed a civilization by pirating what was left of the lizard-people and either backwards-engineering it, trading with the human civilization next to them (humans are old and not lame in the game) or just progressing on their own. They rapidly developed a powerful civilization, but in their hubris, decided they should undergo a process to make them as powerful as the lizard-people at their peak. They could only do this by becoming immortals.

So, they gathered their finest shamans, wizards, and monks, and sequestered themselves until they succeeded. All they had to do was magically attach (I use the word 'staple' because it's a pretty artificial procedure) their own patterns onto the static, powerful patten of the world. Their own will become unmoving, and they will become immortal once their frame would start to degenerate. So, they reach peak age, and then never change.

This has some drawbacks. First, it's not one-sided. When you look deep enough onto the pattern of the world, the pattern looks into you, and the elves began to take on aspects of the elements. See, this is the other gimmik I wanted to deal with; the bollocks that elves are all inherantly magical, and so do better magic then everyone else. Well, they *are* magical now, because elemental magic is now encoded onto their DNA when they're born.

There'a another drawback, though. They breed as normal, and they live as normal, but they have some really high mutation at birth problems. It seems that the magical DNA material is unstable in the womb, when the form is just starting to take on shape, so what you get is a lot of still births. These are all just dumped in the farthest reaches of their woodland, in the darkest parts of the swamp, and never talked about. Some of these awful mutants live, though. These are all dumped as well, but some of them must survive until this day, unspeakably warped and dangerous.

Being long lived, those that live past a mortal lifetime are considered pretty well-educated. They're accomplished sorcerers, given their understanding of the elemental arts (they're good at their 'chosen' element, and shitty at their opposite.). There are two human cultures, really. The ones that live to their west have been their forever. That civilization has little to learn from the elves. The one to the east, however, was built from a raiding community that went big. While their own magical tradition is quite extensive by now, they often ask elves to serve as tutors and advisors, which elves like to do because it moves toward cementing elven cultural superiority.

Mechanically elves are represented with a -2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Chr, proficient with short bows and long swords, and a -2 to Will Saves in D&D. In the d20 version, I use Clinton Nixon's Sweet20 Keys for experiance, so elves get -1 Con mod, +1 Dex Mod, an automatic Sorcerer feat (they can start taking limited sorcerery for free,) and an Elemental Key, which goes up in levels as the character earns points for acting an a nature that resonantes with his element. (Fire, Earth, Water, Air, or two recent happenings - Wood or Metal). As elves grow older, they become more and more like a force of nature and less like a rational person. It makes them powerful, but batshit sorcerers.

They're decadent and cruel in my game, with a Byzantine power system that stops them from putting up a good threat to the humans, because they can bearly tie their shoes without trying to off their kin. Elves seem romantic to most peasents, because they've never met them. Elves, once met, are more like long lived nutters in nice clothing then anything else. Dangerous, powerful, but really they're their own downfall.

I also like Tolkien's elves, and if I ever ran a campaign in which there was any transcendent force for good, I'd be tempted to include them. Basically no roleplaying game (with the partial exception of Burning Wheel) has captured their nature that well though.

John Wick's Elfworld (I hear this exists in some form, though it was never published) takes the idea of cruel immortal elves to a certain sort of logical extreme, I'm told.

My friend's campaign has very cool elves, but I don't want to describe the reversal of traditional elf-lore he uses because it's something no-one else has done yet as far as we know and he wants to publish a novel based on it someday.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityEvidence for II:

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/cselves.html
(Rob Conley on Wilderlands Elves)

I am obviously influenced by Tolkein's take on the Elves. However I wanted a myth that fitted the AD&D (1st) origins(even though it eventually evolved to GURPS) of my wilderlands campaign. I make a notebook that listed all the sentient races from the various AD&D (1st) monster manuals.

So I wondered how can so many damn races exist and how they are mostly humanoid.

Also I wanted an absolute evil in my world that is not just another faction.

So borrowing from Tolkien I made the idea of Elves and Men as children races created by the ONE and taught by the Lords (Gods).

Then I added borrowed from Christianity the idea that sin originated in pride. Pride that one can do better than the creator of the world (The ONE) So rebel Lords and Dark Elves combined to enslave Man and kill the other elves and lords that didn't toe the line. These rebels became the Demons.

All the races came from the Demons from trying to twist Man into the perfect servitor race. This includes Dwarves, halflings, and other "good" races. The major exceptions were things like Aboleth and Mind-Flayers and other Cthuluiods like races. These were descended from groups of Lords and/or Dark Elves that twisted themselves in search of greater power. The Viridians in my Wilderlands were a minor race of demons that managed to escape the Abyss and return to the Wilderlands carving out an Empire.

The final twist is that after the great war that overthrew and imprisioned the Demons, many of the surviving Lords or Gods now had their own issues including some that are evil in their own right. For example Set was obsessive about purging demons from the Wilderlands to the point of he taught his followers how to be tyrants to bring order. Kali, raped and mutilated, turn from the Goddess of Wild Nature, to Nature's Fury cared little for what got destroyed in her path. Hamakhis touched the primordial chaos. While gaining great power he tainted himself with some of the same darkness of demons. He demand human sacrifices (aztec style) to give him the strength to keep this power in check.  

In the end the idea to generate conflict to provide for interesting roleplaying plots. All the gods hated demons but some were evil in their own right.