Given: Elves are basically intolerably tacky.

It follows that: Extra work must be performed in order to awesomerize them.

Hypothesis: Awesomerization of Elves will involve either I. making fun of them; or II. taking them dead seriously.

Evidence for I:

http://gurpsnet.sjgames.com/Archive/Races/elves
(Yes, this is by Dr. Kromm!)

Possibly: Elfs by R. Edwards, but could the author really be said to have a sense of humor?

Evidence for II:

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/cselves.html
(Rob Conley on Wilderlands Elves)

Elves lifepath in Burning Wheel

Elves in The Shadow of Yesterday

Further examples, disagreements, whatever?

Evidence for II:
Elves in Warhammer FRPG were bad! Totally bad a**!
Elves in 40k were awesome. The Shuriken Catapult was deadly.

I had a huge dislike for elves because of how totally awesome they were in games. Then came along Shadowrun. I got to shoot Elves with automatic weapons. It doesn't get any better.

Important Addendum for II:

http://miscellaneousdebris.sitesled.com/gamefiles/vselves.pdf

(This is James's "vs. Elves" for Phil Reed's "vs. Monsters")

Not elves, per se, but Greg Stolze and I riffed off of one another for a twist on faeries for Unknown Armies, where they're actually the ghosts of unborn children, totally inhuman in their outlook, and will shave ten years of aging off if you can swallow one.

Getting back to actual elves, and I know that this take has proven controversial, I like the Gloranthan version of elves.  They possess both the Man rune and the Plant rune, so they are, in effect, sentient, mobile plants.  I much prefer the older, more orthodox interpretation that portrays them as looking, for all intents and purposes, just like humans, but with a few botanical traits showing through here and there.  The version depicted in the Mongoose RQ looked awful.

Oh, and further evidence for II: Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéans.  Cold, cruel, inhuman, resplendent in their decline.  After their final passing, humanity remembers them as "elves", or euphemistically as "the fair folk".  WH40K's Eldar are very much space-faring Melnibonéans.

!i!

Mechanical and background adjustments are pretty useless. No matter how you dress them up, once you have an Elf PC, the magic is mostly gone. Make them more "awesome" regarding the background, and the players won't notice unless they read half a binder of the DMs stories (i.e. they really won't). Buff them up so that there's a straight mechanical awe and you'll have a race of super-creatures, with even more players using them -> awful, not awesome.

Just like wizards in a Conan game, I'd say the best way to increase the otherly nature of elves is to keep them out of the players hand. Or hide the player behind a room divider, distort his voice and force him to speak in iambic pentameter

Take away the androgenous nature and most problems with elves are fixed. Folks don't get nearly as annoyed at an 8' tall musclebound badass as they do at a 5' tall girly-man badass.

i've always liked elves, no matter the flavor.  (no, not that way :eek: )  but as far as fantasy worlds go, they're always the doomed race.  their ties to the natural world will make them weaker and more scarce as technological development rises.  

i've never used them in space or sf, tho.  don't play w40k or SR. . . .

Quote from: SosthenesMechanical and background adjustments are pretty useless. No matter how you dress them up, once you have an Elf PC, the magic is mostly gone. Make them more "awesome" regarding the background, and the players won't notice unless they read half a binder of the DMs stories (i.e. they really won't). Buff them up so that there's a straight mechanical awe and you'll have a race of super-creatures, with even more players using them -> awful, not awesome.

Just like wizards in a Conan game, I'd say the best way to increase the otherly nature of elves is to keep them out of the players hand.

I like not this news! Bring me some other news! [/Blackadder]

It's true, though. Elf PCs in a mixed party are tough to deal with, even and particularly when awesomerized. Workaround: Everyone's an Elf, as in Vincent Baker's neglected Otherkind RPG.

Quote from: beeberi've always liked elves, no matter the flavor.

Flavor -- another reason to like the Gloranthan elf.  Trolls like to eat them as a vegetable side dish.

!i!

Quote from: Pierce Inverarityt's true, though. Elf PCs in a mixed party are tough to deal with, even and particularly when awesomerized. Workaround: Everyone's an Elf, as in Vincent Baker's neglected Otherkind RPG.

Dunno about that, but it certainly didn't work for Elfquest -- apart from the fact that the Pini's elves, kinda, well, suck. Although they're at least to that lofty and the age where the stories are set in make it easy to emphasize with the elves looking down on man.

But anyhoo, if everyone's playing an elf, that won't make them more awesome, it just won't rise criticism, as everyone's doing something wrong.

Sosthenes, you're just being bitter.

Sad sack!

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySosthenes, you're just being bitter.

Yes, I've been hurt before. I would really like to try awesome elves, but I'm just afraid that past experiences would come up again and I'm not sure whether I'm strong enough to handle that. The ache is just to strong...

I think one point that's bad for the awesomely strange flavor is if elves have the same abilities as humans. And by this I usually mean classes, although point-based systems can have similar problems if there's not a small partition left only for the elves...
Old D&D did it right, IMHO. An elf was a class as well as a race, so you got something nobody else could do (arcane might + combat), which instantly set the elves apart. And -- fellow countrymen, spare me -- our very own Dark Eye game had some pretty decent elves, mostly for the same reasons. They had their own spells and basically were their own class, too. The background went a bit too indian-like (not to speak of the badly stolen ancient background), but most players actually got their different nature, even if some choose to ignore that by playing the usual man-like outcast. And with three kinds of elves (grass, tree, icicle), a progression of other-ness was available, so that you could play something that got closer to the human condition and something that's still rather strange.

Most settings don't do something similar, so elves are not different enough. They shouldn't be integrated in human culture, that will instantly destroy any exotic nature. Most AD&D settings failed here, although I have to say that I like the Midnight approach. I'm not sure about the WFRP elves, haven't seen to much of them...

And, like, half-elves esse delandam, or whatever...

I'd love to hear what you guys think of Elves in Shadowrun and Earthdawn!

...delendi sunt.

These elves don't suck:



Why? Because they're the main course. Not really good or evil, just awesome, they live in an advanced society that's only somewhat decayed, full of crystal palaces and arcane magicks. Men are barely worth notice, basically uncouth barbarians, while the chief enemy are the troll-like stone giants from the north. There's none of the sentimental "noble savage one with nature" or disdain of technology that often comes bundled with fantasy elves. These guys are like the Atlanteans: the highest, most developed culture in an otherwise primitive world...and they know it...which leads to complacency, hubris, and doom.

Quote from: Serious PaulI'd love to hear what you guys think of Elves in Shadowrun and Earthdawn!

I think Spike is the local expert on that.