How much racial tension do you include in your games?
Does it differ if the races are based on skin color instead of actual races? In other words, do you change the levels in worlds with elves and dwarves?
Depends on the game.
In my future games I tend to portray the human race as having interbred so much there are no longer distinct 'racial' traits per se, that way I can concentrate on ideological and other sources of conflict.
Yup, that depends heavily on the game, although I'm not going to ignore issues like that in, say, a CoC investigation set in the '20s or a Nob scenario which revolves around Joktan's schemes.
Not too much. IMC there is anti-humanoid (due to raids from the orc empire, and humanoid bandits) and anti-elven (the gold elves tried to wipe out humanity) sentiment in a few areas, but only enough to hassle the players :D
We don't play too many modern settings, but I am thinking of starting a Rifts campaign so if would probably fit in pretty well there.
Quote from: James McMurrayHow much racial tension do you include in your games?
It depends on the game and, to some extent, the GM within my group. If it makes sense for the setting or genre, it's usually there to some degree. FYI, I play in a racially mixed group.
Quote from: James McMurrayDoes it differ if the races are based on skin color instead of actual races? In other words, do you change the levels in worlds with elves and dwarves?
To some degree, yes, because it's easier to run a fantasy racists (as a GM or player) than a real world racist.
Racism in games I run is pretty nuanced. For instance, in a medieval game the modern concept of racism as such does not exist. I'm quite happy to dive headlong into any issues there may be.
Thanks for all the replies folks. I didn't just leap right in at first with my take on racism in games because I wanted a larger sample and not the distraction of "but your way is wrong" that sometimes happens when an OP asks and answers a question.
In my games whether racism exists or not is mostly up to the players. In Shadowrun it happens more because it's an integral part of the campaign world. Likewise with fantasy settings (typical Humanoids vs. metahumans stuff). But usually, it's up to the PCs.
My group is all white males and we typically all make white males. Sometimes someone will make a member of another race. If they do, and that character then draws attention to their race repeatedly, I take it to mean that a little interaction based on race is wanted, and have at it. But usually, unless they wind up at a situation that's inherently racist (a KKK rally for instance) it won't intrude much on the game.
In other words, unless a character has demonstrated a desire to make racial comments, there aren't likely to be any occurrences of a random "Nigger (or Tusker, or whatever) go home."
In every single one of my campaigns all Basques are worshipers of the Great Old Ones, and Scotsmen are all kilted rampaging madmen barbarians.
Yes, even the campaigns that don't take place on earth. :D
RPGPundit
(who's 1/4 Basque, and not Scottish at all) :p
Quote from: James McMurrayMy group is all white males and we typically all make white males.
My group is not all white males and includes (or has included in the past) black males, asian males, asian females, white females, and (in the past) some hispanic males. We usually play characters of the same sex but not always the same race. In fact, in one game, I was playing a black male (I'm white) and a black player was playing a white male.
Quote from: James McMurrayIn other words, unless a character has demonstrated a desire to make racial comments, there aren't likely to be any occurrences of a random "Nigger (or Tusker, or whatever) go home."
I'm not really fond of the "N-word" and would discourage it's use in a game, even if there was quite a bit of racism being played out. I don't even know if it would offend the black people I play with if used in an authentic context but it carries so much baggage I'd find it distracting. I just don't like the word. There are plenty of ways to illustrate racism and racial slang without using that word (or a handful of equally offensive words).
I seem to be able to handle racial themes better in past/modern/contemporary settings - in other words real world settings...maybe some alt timeline stuff.
But when it comes to fantasy and future settings, I kind of drop the ball. I can't seem to inject verisimilitude into the campaigns.
The real world games I've run tend to be set in Asia. If I'm going to do some heavy racial stuff, it may as well be in a location that has a hell of a lot more relevence to the group.
Regards,
David R
It depends totally on the game. For example, when I run Cold Space, set in the Cold War Era, race is very important as it's a time of great changes in the US. When I run the sequel, FTL Now, it's not a big deal. My group is all white curently, but not historically, and has never been all-male. The players often choose to play characters of different sex and race, and enjoy the challenges in playing non-whites in - say - CoC or Cold Space.
-clash
Quote from: John MorrowI'm not really fond of the "N-word" and would discourage it's use in a game, even if there was quite a bit of racism being played out. I don't even know if it would offend the black people I play with if used in an authentic context but it carries so much baggage I'd find it distracting. I just don't like the word. There are plenty of ways to illustrate racism and racial slang without using that word (or a handful of equally offensive words).
Understandable. We tend to take a more head-on approach. I guess we figure if we're gonna tackle something we may as well tackle it, and not just one limb. :)
Quote from: John MorrowMy group is not all white males and includes (or has included in the past) black males, asian males, asian females, white females, and (in the past) some hispanic males. We usually play characters of the same sex but not always the same race. In fact, in one game, I was playing a black male (I'm white) and a black player was playing a white male.
I'm not really fond of the "N-word" and would discourage it's use in a game, even if there was quite a bit of racism being played out. I don't even know if it would offend the black people I play with if used in an authentic context but it carries so much baggage I'd find it distracting. I just don't like the word. There are plenty of ways to illustrate racism and racial slang without using that word (or a handful of equally offensive words).
Hmm, just out of curiousity, do you also object to terms like "Honkie" and "cracker"?
I ask because I've noticed that a lot of people who tend to object about certain "racist" terms don't seem to mind when equally offensive racist terms are used by other groups against other groups.
There isn't a racist term on the planet that's going to offend me. Racism itself is offensive, but words are just words and they only have as much power as we give them.
Quote from: James McMurrayThere isn't a racist term on the planet that's going to offend me. Racism itself is offensive, but words are just words and they only have as much power as we give them.
A commendable attitude. I salute your reason, sir.
Thanks! Wanna go beat up some Muslems with me this weekend? ;)
Quote from: James McMurrayThanks! Wanna go beat up some Muslems with me this weekend? ;)
Dude, if me calling stuff "gay" isn't cool, I don't think this is cool, even in jest...
Cool. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I think everyone here knows it wasn't derogatory towards Muslems, unlike using "gay" as an insult. Likewise, everyone probably knows it was a dig at Nox and his strange sense of non-Racist bigotry.
But if it causes a stir I'll happily delete it.
Quote from: James McMurrayThanks! Wanna go beat up some Muslems with me this weekend? ;)
Actually I prefer to hit their mosques while they're all inside banging their heads on the floor and waving their asses up in the air to praise that false god of theirs. ;)
Seriously, I wouldn't have the feelings I do towards the headbanging asswavers if they were just calling us bad names. When they start murdering people all over the world and having riots in which unarmed people are murdered because someone dared print a cartoon depicting their false prophet and seriously plan and intend to impose their barbaric, dark age lifestyle and culture on the world by force then I have hostility towards them.
Look, I hate Ann Coulter because of the poison she spews, but I don't advocate neutralizing her because she just talks. Now if she were to either take action to kill "liberals" or seriously encourage her followers to do so, then I might feel towards her the way I do towards muslims and want her stopped.
Ahh, most of the people here just don't get it so why bother? Maybe when muslims are using force on you directly, or on your country, your city, whatever, and forcing their ways on you and your fsamily personally you'll catch on.
When it's too damn late, like a lot of people in europe finally caught on that the new bunch in germany in the 30's wasn't just making rhetorhic but meant everything they said, a little bit late.
Wikipedia's list of ethnic slurs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs)
Knock yourselves out, fellers.
Thanks, but the discussion isn't really about ethnic slurs. Although they do play a part in it, and are probably the quickest and easiest tools to use in a game.
Quote from: Dominus NoxLook, I hate Ann Coulter because of the poison she spews, but I don't advocate neutralizing her because she just talks. Now if she were to either take action to kill "liberals" or seriously encourage her followers to do so, then I might feel towards her the way I do towards muslims and want her stopped.
Well, the issue here is that you're comparing judging Ann Coulter as an individual -- whereas you're judging all of Islam for the actions of a minority of extremists. I think that this is a self-defeating approach, since attacking all of Islam IMO only makes the problem of terrorism worse. I want muslim terrorists stopped -- and I think that the only way to do that is to join forces with the moderate muslims.
Quote from: Dominus NoxAhh, most of the people here just don't get it so why bother? Maybe when muslims are using force on you directly, or on your country, your city, whatever, and forcing their ways on you and your fsamily personally you'll catch on.
When it's too damn late, like a lot of people in europe finally caught on that the new bunch in germany in the 30's wasn't just making rhetorhic but meant everything they said, a little bit late.
Well, I suspect some degree of this is part of human nature -- and I'm sure there is stuff I'm overlooking. However, on the terrorism front my track record is pretty good. I was part of the set who were screaming about the Taliban prior to 2001 -- but at the time we were generally dismissed as bleeding-heart liberals because our top complaints included their oppression of women and destruction of Buddhist and other cultural relics. For that matter, I was also part of the set who were screaming about the horrors Saddam Hussein at the time when we were dealing arms to him in order to fund the Sandinistas. And at the time we again were dismissed as idealists who didn't know what we were talking about.
Apropos gaming, it's pretty common for my games to touch on racism. I often have historical settings, and I hate the idea of whitewashing historical attitudes.
Y'know all you BRP (Broken Record People) out there are really going to end up hurting western civillization more than anyone or anything in history. Seriously, anytime anyone tries to warn people about the threat that radical islam poses, you scream him down with your twin cries of "RACIST!!! RACIST!!!" and your tired old litany of "It's just a few of them...just a few of them...just a few of them..."
Well, guess what? Sometimes it's the few that call the shots and make the dciscions. Hell, just a few germans were nazis, at first. People ignored their marches in the streets, their chants of "Death to jews!", their attacks on jewish property and so on until it was too fucking late.
But hey, your mind's set in concrete, I can't fucking convince you, so just go ahead and keep right on being a good little BRP and endlessly chanting "Racist!!!" and "It's just a few of them!" because there are only two ways things can go for you, and either one of them sucks.
One, either people finallky wake up to the truth and start figiting back against islamofascism, and along the way just absolutely crushing you BRPs into the dirt, or two, you manage to pacify the west into complacancy until radical islam takes over and you end up living under a taliban like regime.
I'm not worried about the latter alternative, because I'll have damn well died fighting those bastards before they take over, you BRP will be living under them and get to see how much "tolerance" they have for other views.
Hey, this one's broken too!
Quote from: Dominus NoxHmm, just out of curiousity, do you also object to terms like "Honkie" and "cracker"?
No, nor do I object to other words for blacks. I think the problem is that as a white person, I associate the use of that particular word with the sort of white bigot who will never use that word with black people around but throw it around with reckless abandon as soon as they are out of sight. As someone with friends of many races, that experience (not all that common, but I've had it happen) always given me a really ickly feeling. And that's what I think about when I hear it. That, and gangsta rappers, who are only slightly higher on my scale.
Quote from: Dominus NoxI ask because I've noticed that a lot of people who tend to object about certain "racist" terms don't seem to mind when equally offensive racist terms are used by other groups against other groups.
I don't think that particular term is equally offensive to the terms you used. They are closer to the second-tier terms you might hear Archie Bunker using on TV. I
have heard blacks spew equally offensive slurs at whites (there was a particularly vile group that used to rant away in Midtown Manhattan with a megaphone) but those ain't it. And, yes, I'd probably discourage that sort of talk, too.
Quote from: droogWikipedia's list of ethnic slurs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs)
They are missing a few. Probably more than a few.
Interestingly enough, some ethnic slurs cut both ways. For example, in some parts of the american heartland, "Moon cricket" is a slur against blacks for some reason, whereas indians tend to use the same term as a slur against whites, claiming that white people's faces remind them of full moons, and their high pitched voices remind them of cricket chirpings.
Quote from: Dominus NoxSeriously, anytime anyone tries to warn people about the threat that radical islam poses
Actually, I'm more worried about the threat that the US poses.
Quote from: Tyberious FunkActually, I'm more worried about the threat that the US poses.
Hell, yeah. I mean, they keep sending us episodes of
Everybody Loves Raymond.
Quote from: Dominus NoxActually I prefer to hit their mosques while they're all inside banging their heads on the floor and waving their asses up in the air to praise that false god of theirs. ;)
Quick note of interest, but the Moslem god is the Christian god and started out as the Jewish god. If that still makes it a false god - fair enough - but if you were unaware of the fact I thought it best to inform you.
Course I wish they'd all (all three sects that is) fuck off back to the desert and leave me the Hel alone.
And in the interests of rereailing the thread...Racism has only ever been a factor in one of my games and that was Anti Mutant hysteria in a Marvel supes campaign.
Other than that and it just doesn't factor into things.
Quote from: jhkimI was part of the set who were screaming about the Taliban prior to 2001 -- but at the time we were generally dismissed as bleeding-heart liberals because our top complaints included their oppression of women and destruction of Buddhist and other cultural relics.
Out of curiosity, what were you screaming to do to the Taliban prior to 2001? Would you have supported an invasion? More cruise missiles? UN sanctions? A protest march? And who exactly was doing the dismissing? I'm seriously interested in what you have in mind here.
Quote from: jhkimFor that matter, I was also part of the set who were screaming about the horrors Saddam Hussein at the time when we were dealing arms to him in order to fund the Sandinistas. And at the time we again were dismissed as idealists who didn't know what we were talking about.
Uh, Oliver North funded the
Contras against the Sandanistas and it was primarily arms sales to
Iran and not Iraq that were the issue at the time (that's why the scandal was called "Iran-Contra" not "Iraq-Sandanista"). At the time liberals seemed far more concerned about stopping funding to the Contras than anything Saddam was doing. As for that whole issue, I suggest taking a look at the recent presidential election in Nicaragua and the role Oliver North played in the results and think about what that means with respect to how many of the people of Nicaragua view Oliver North and his rogue funding of the Contras.
On the other hand, I do agree with you about attacking all Muslims for the sins of the militants. Not smart. Not good.
Ugh. Alright, hasty and ill-thought reply -- though I think the preceding post was worse.
Quote from: John MorrowOut of curiosity, what were you screaming to do to the Taliban prior to 2001? Would you have supported an invasion? More cruise missiles? UN sanctions? A protest march? And who exactly was doing the dismissing? I'm seriously interested in what you have in mind here.
An invasion of Afghanistan in the nineties? Hell, no. I'm well convinced that pre-emptive invasion is a stupid idea in general -- and I didn't think much of the cruise missles, either. (As far as foreign policy, Clinton was clearly a step down from Bush Sr., in my opinion -- but we all pretty much knew that at the election.) I did support stronger sanctions, along the lines of what was successful on South Africa. And diplomatic efforts to cut off their lines of support.
Quote from: John MorrowOn the other hand, I do agree with you about attacking all Muslims for the sins of the militants. Not smart. Not good.
Yes, well, here we agree. Obviously I was grasping with the Iran-Contra stuff, which I was in grade school during. I didn't know much about Nicaragua one way or the other at the time -- what enraged me was the blatant gun-running to militant muslims.
Quote from: jhkimUgh. Alright, hasty and ill-thought reply -- though I think the preceding post was worse.
Agreed. Thanks for the answers (seriously, not sarcasm).
Could we perhaps move the political and religious stuff to another thread? And yeah, I know I was partly responsible for creating it. :)
Has anyone seen a game with mechanics for racism? I've seen systems with random NPC generators that have a chance at rolling up racist. Also mutants in MSH start with much lower popularity than everyone else.
Quote from: James McMurrayHas anyone seen a game with mechanics for racism?
At least one of the old D&D or AD&D books included a table for how the various races felt about each other.
True. I'd forgotten those. I know AD&D (1e) had them. 2e may have politically corrected them into oblivion, I don't recall. I have to assume Hackmaster has something similar.
Quote from: James McMurrayCould we perhaps move the political and religious stuff to another thread? And yeah, I know I was partly responsible for creating it. :)
Has anyone seen a game with mechanics for racism? I've seen systems with random NPC generators that have a chance at rolling up racist. Also mutants in MSH start with much lower popularity than everyone else.
I've seen a short bit of rules for shadowrun at one time.... second edition I think, that were about specific prejudices that NPC's... and PC's.... could have. You could randomly roll it and it had...AFAIK levels of hatred.
But really, once you get past the fact that the racial groupings are completely made up, Shadowrun is the most openly racist game there. Elves are 'dandylion eaters' Orks and Trolls are openly reviled as 'Trogs', dwarves are 'Stumpy' and ghouls...well they have a hard time even lobbying for basic human rights. If the other premises of the game were more serious it would be THE game to study the impacts of racism in a gaming environment.
Quote from: SpikeBut really, once you get past the fact that the racial groupings are completely made up, Shadowrun is the most openly racist game there. Elves are 'dandylion eaters' Orks and Trolls are openly reviled as 'Trogs', dwarves are 'Stumpy' and ghouls...well they have a hard time even lobbying for basic human rights. If the other premises of the game were more serious it would be THE game to study the impacts of racism in a gaming environment.
Well, Shadowrun is really just borrowing the same tropes that appear in most fantasy games. For example, orcs are actually considerably more accepted in Shadowrun than they are in most fantasy worlds. It's simply the fact that Shadowrun is otherwise like the modern world that reminds one that this is racism.
Quote from: Dominus NoxHmm, just out of curiousity, do you also object to terms like "Honkie" and "cracker"?
I don't. I just find the terms kind of silly - not offensive. Other racial slurs that could be used against me, like "mick", don't do much for me, either. I think, in general, the average white guy probably doesn't get as upset because his people didn't have generations of abuse and being treated like less of a person.
There are exceptions, though. One of my Korean friends in college used to use the term "DAWBER" to get a rise out of his roommate - another friend (a white guy). It stood for "Dumb Ass White Boys Eating Rice" - an Asian version of WIGGER, perhaps (he has an odd sense of humor). When their friendship went south, my Korean friend actually had to have a talk with the dean in charge of multi-cultural affairs because the guy reported him as making "racist attacks".
As for my games, I can't recall a time when racial tension came into play (even though I usually use a fairly multi-cultural cast of NPCs).
Quote from: jhkimWell, Shadowrun is really just borrowing the same tropes that appear in most fantasy games. For example, orcs are actually considerably more accepted in Shadowrun than they are in most fantasy worlds. It's simply the fact that Shadowrun is otherwise like the modern world that reminds one that this is racism.
Well, I stated on another thread that today is my 'bone headedly inarticulate day' for posting. Yes your point has merit, but shadowrun brings the racism to the forefront, with groups like Humanis policlubs, Mother Of Metahumans (MOM), and more. The Setting is explicitly racist, which jars horribly with the way it is so often played. While I am sure there is a far more racist game out there, Shadowrun's handling of it is from the perspective of 'this shit exists' rather than 'this shit is good'. Extrapolation of fantasy tropes or not.